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Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: lassie on August 14, 2012, 12:41:15 PM
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Someone mentioned the other day that Amiga and other old consoles and computers will slowly die. Do you think that our old amigas and computers will work in 5 years or 10 years? it is a scary thought, if all our beloved computers will stop working. But mayby we can keep them going with some love.
Amiga 4000 030 18 mb ram, 16 giga hard disk
Amiga 2000 030 9 mb ram, 1 giga hard disk
Amiga 2000 68000 5 mb ram, 500 mb hard disk
Amiga 2000 68000 9 mb ram 1 giga hard disk
Amiga 600 4 mb ram, 4 giga hard disk
Amiga 500 1 mb ram
Amiga cd32
Commodore 64
Commodore 64c
Commodore 128
Commodore 128D
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My A500 from 1990 that i was given is working fine. But it is a little grubby though...
I am personally not too worried about it. If mine breaks down i will keep the case and buy one of Mike J's FPGA Arcades :)
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Hi,
I'm sure at least they will have lasted longer thant any modern computer.
I know what I mean, I'm currently seeking an IDE drive for my crashed laptop that cost 1500 euros.Guess its age ? seven years only.
I expect that emulation will provide us in pleasure of using our old system.
What concerns me is that I'd love to continue to use my "keyboard". What I like in retro computers is the unique feeling they give you compared to these untasty modern design.
One of my dream, is that all old keyboards of our beloved computers (of all brands) will be released one day as an alternative to those current slim planks.
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Hi,
I'm sure at least they will have lasted longer thant any modern computer.
I know what I mean, I'm currently seeking an IDE drive for my crashed laptop that cost 1500 euros.Guess its age ? seven years only.
I expect that emulation will provide us in pleasure of using our old system.
What concerns me is that I'd love to continue to use my "keyboard". What I like in retro computers is the unique feeling they give you compared to these untasty modern design.
One of my dream, is that all old keyboards of our beloved computers (of all brands) will be released one day as an alternative to those current slim planks.
Yes i will give you right there was more class and stile in the old computers :-)And the newer stuff are very poor made i have had 3 playstation 2 and 2 laptop they all broke down before they were 5 years old
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Someone mentioned the other day that Amiga and other old consoles and computers will slowly die. Do you think that our old amigas and computers will work in 5 years or 10 years? it is a scary thought, if all our beloved computers will stop working. But mayby we can keep them going with some love.
Amiga 4000 030 18 mb ram, 16 giga hard disk
Amiga 2000 030 9 mb ram, 1 giga hard disk
Amiga 2000 68000 5 mb ram, 500 mb hard disk
Amiga 2000 68000 9 mb ram 1 giga hard disk
Amiga 600 4 mb ram, 4 giga hard disk
Amiga 500 1 mb ram
Amiga cd32
Commodore 64
Commodore 64c
Commodore 128
Commodore 128D
my a500 bought approx 1987 ..many upgrades still runs good...keyboard died ..replaced ..thats all ..so 25 yrs..so far
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Well, there are "breadbox" type C64s out there still working fine... Simple construction, high longevity. Aside from battery leakage the keyboards, disk drives and I/O ports are likely to die first because these parts experience the most mechanical stress. Ten more years? Perhaps not without a few spare parts... But who knows what will happen in ten years' time. Minimigs for everyone? :)
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I had an A1200 that was on for 99% of the time from 1993 to 2007 (by then in a tower) never had a fault or anything - until I sold it. Probably because it was always on.
The 2000s never seem to die - pretty heavy duty construction. Power supply may slowly die or the fan might make noise, but they're easily replaceable.
I have had my share of used A500s which had various problems. The chips in such machines aren't really pushed to any thermal limits, so other than accelerators or disk controllers, I can't see why they couldn't last for a very long time, whatever very long time means.
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I picked up a PET and a dual floppy drive unit for it a couple of months ago. The PET worked perfectly and the floppy drive needed a quick head cleaning. I'm sure they'll still be working in another 10 years.
The biggest threat to the life of an Amiga (battery aside) is the user poking around in places he doesn't need to be. :)
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Yeah, my Vic 20 and Apple //c are still running great, as is my A1000.
Treated well, these machines will last quite a while..
Now, there were some problem CAPs in the A1200s, and all CAPs eventually can have problems, but I know people with original Apple ]['s that are still running with the original CAPs..
They do need to be kept away from moisture in storage tho, that can be really bad for these poor old guys..
desiv
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What concerns me is that I'd love to continue to use my "keyboard". What I like in retro computers is the unique feeling they give you compared to these untasty modern design.
One of my dream, is that all old keyboards of our beloved computers (of all brands) will be released one day as an alternative to those current slim planks.
Ive been stubborn and hated new keyboards for ages, but aprox 6 months ago I decided to give a Swedish keyboard manufacturer a chance and bought a mechanical keyboard with Cherry Blue switches and im never going back.
These switches make a click every time they are pressed and I love that, they also needs to be pressed all way down to register a key also require you to release it all way up before you can make another keypress (you can hold them down ofc).
Also it's not as big as a hangar ship, normal sized keyboard with the classic key layout so no reversed enter button or one key backspace, that I love. The keyboard is black and got baclight but it's easy to set how bright you wan't it to be with buttons or turn it off.
I also like not to have 436 extra quick buttons to open the calculator in Windows ^^
This keyboard gives me the old IBM M series feeling and I love it, also it's quite robust at it's weight of 1,27KG's
I also love that it's not an USB keyboard but PS/2 and you can press all keys at once and every single press registers.
I love it, and will never buy a Rubber dome keyboard again.
It looks like this, but you also get "wrist rest" can use if you want (don't know the english name of em).
(http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/QPAD/MK-80/images/keyboard.jpg)
Review:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQHF-BoelJk
And talking about our hardware to die, well I give my computers some love, and im planning on changing all caps on them in the near future to 100 Celsius plus ones, not needed since there is no problems with em yet but just to be safe for atleast 10-20 years more :)
ERDIT: Just for the fun of it I went down in my basement and dug up my first Pong console, it's an Videomaster Olympic and it still works BUT I need to replace all the switches and both Potentiometers, two of the switches are dead (the ones for game mode) but the power on/off one works but are stiff, the Potentiometers used to control the paddles are near dead and needs to be replaced but I get picture :)
So mabe it's time to give this old pong machine some love, it has no digital score system so you get two metal balls you use to count score :)
here it is:
(http://www.pong-story.com/pics/vm/olympic/system.jpg)
(http://www.pong-story.com/pics/vm/olympic/inside.jpg)
You guys from Australia might recognize it since it was fairly popular there :)
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I picked up a PET and a dual floppy drive unit for it a couple of months ago. The PET worked perfectly and the floppy drive needed a quick head cleaning. I'm sure they'll still be working in another 10 years.
The biggest threat to the life of an Amiga (battery aside) is the user poking around in places he doesn't need to be. :)
Those drives may be belt driven. The belts will eventually wear out or get brittle, but little else will break down.
I still have an old Timex Sinclair computer from 1979 that works. That's the oldest machine I currently have.
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Those drives may be belt driven. The belts will eventually wear out or get brittle, but little else will break down.
I still have an old Timex Sinclair computer from 1979 that works. That's the oldest machine I currently have.
I just added a PETdisk (SD Card based floppy emulator) to the system. I need to get around to doing a review of it for the Commodore Free magazine. Nice bit of kit. Acts as a giant floppy drive (more like a hard drive as far as the PET is concerned) and stores your data as files on a FAT32 formatted MicroSD card. Can be configured as device 8, 9, 10 or 11 and has a pass through connector for other devices.
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My oldest computer is a homebrew z80 from late '76/early '77. A friend and I built it as a project for a university class. It still works. We made it deluxe for '76, two 5.25 floppies and 64K of ram. Scarfed the keyboard off an old dead univac terminal....
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My oldest computer is a homebrew z80 from late '76/early '77. A friend and I built it as a project for a university class. It still works. We made it deluxe for '76, two 5.25 floppies and 64K of ram. Scarfed the keyboard off an old dead univac terminal....
I'm glad computered came self assembled later otherwise I'd still be trying to assemble a VIC-20. My soldering skills suck. :D
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@som99
WD-40 will fix those switches and potentiometers. There's a good chance you won't need to replace them - if you use WD-40.
I've bought plenty of pots back to life with WD-40. Don't ever use switch cleaner on a pot though, as it will fix it at first but then a few days later it will be 10 times worse than it was.
Of course, a pot with a totally worn-through track isn't any good, but unless it's had a really hard life then this is unlikely.
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My A4000 died not too long ago.
It's working just fine now. :)
That's the great thing about older tech like Amigas, you can keep them running. When a modern PC dies, what can you do? Nothing. But with an Amiga, as with other machines of that age or older, you can repair them. So they'll still be going in ten years, easily!
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Someone mentioned the other day that Amiga and other old consoles and computers will slowly die. Do you think that our old amigas and computers will work in 5 years or 10 years? it is a scary thought, if all our beloved computers will stop working. But mayby we can keep them going with some love.
Good reason to buy new FPGA computers and AmigaOnes / Mac PPcs / AresOne NOW and preserve them as they are.
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My A4000 died not too long ago.
It's working just fine now. :)
That's the great thing about older tech like Amigas, you can keep them running. When a modern PC dies, what can you do? Nothing. But with an Amiga, as with other machines of that age or older, you can repair them. So they'll still be going in ten years, easily!
My Pentium 90 is still running but my first Amiga 1200 died after four years. I dumped it because there were no repair centers anymore and new mobo costs some 10 eur at max.
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The main thing that will kill all equipment is the capacitors. They will only last about 25 years (less if you use them a lot). And when they go bad, they cause other things to fry. Replace all the electrolitic caps in your unit (and it's power supply) and run those things past your retirement age. :) (All warrantees are off if you get an unprotected power surge the house though)
Plaz
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From my personal experience, it is much better to leave them on 24/7. Letting them sit or turning them on and off causes failures.
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All's I know is, I have/had machines from the early-mid '80s that have been (literally) thrown around by the primates at the recycle center, stored in moldy barns for fifteen or twenty years, and in one case even subjected to a garage fire, that worked just fine when I got them and were still going strong when I sold them on. On the other hand, the machines I bought new in the last eight years haven't lasted four without something significant failing, if not a total functional collapse. I'm not too worried about my Amiga just yet ;)
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From my personal experience, it is much better to leave them on 24/7. Letting them sit or turning them on and off causes failures.
Then i think i will let them stay on forever :drink:
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That's the great thing about older tech like Amigas, you can keep them running. When a modern PC dies, what can you do? Nothing. But with an Amiga, as with other machines of that age or older, you can repair them. So they'll still be going in ten years, easily!
Not so fast! What about A1200s and A600? Their motherboards are the same as peecee motherboards, because everything except the Kickstart roms are surface mounted, and most of the chips are the ones with those tiny pins. Just try to repair that.
If some caps break, then you'll be able to change these on a peecee motherboard easily enough.
Bottom line: It's mostly the same kind of technology, and what you can and can't repair relies purely on what's broken, and whether or not you have the skill to fix the problem.
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My 'new' 1200 has had all of the caps replaced recently and a new battery installed in the Apollo so I hope it will last for a few years yet.
As others have already said, the key is actually using the things, if you just store them away in the loft then they will have issues.
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I should really get the caps replaced. Any suggestions on where to go? I don't have any soldering skills.
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I used AmigaKit, they took quite a long time but they did a really good job of it (I've never heard a 1200 sound so good).
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the SMD / SMT A1200s were pretty rock solid. Perhaps I haven't run into some odd batches that weren't, but C= A1200, and Escom / Magic Pack bundles were reliable. I've never had a problem with an A1200 that hasn't been user-hacked. (& there's not much to hack there)
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I was hoping to pick up a supposedly working but long stored away 3000 for $200. I asked the guy to boot it in case the battery had killed it. It didn't boot. I took it for $50 for a worst case as a parts machine anyway in case I ever do find a working 3000. Sadly, opening it up wasn't as pretty a sight as I had hoped. Between that and my 2000 recently not finding the HD has got me a bit down on the old hardware lately. I'm a bit scared to try my 1000 and 4000 that haven't been tried for a while now. I now have all the Amiga models I wanted to collect, I just don't have all working ones, and I fear less will work over time. Now it seems like I probably need a spare of each model just so I can diagnose what is wrong in some cases.
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I was hoping to pick up a supposedly working but long stored away 3000 for $200. I asked the guy to boot it in case the battery had killed it. It didn't boot. I took it for $50 for a worst case as a parts machine anyway in case I ever do find a working 3000. Sadly, opening it up wasn't as pretty a sight as I had hoped. Between that and my 2000 recently not finding the HD has got me a bit down on the old hardware lately. I'm a bit scared to try my 1000 and 4000 that haven't been tried for a while now. I now have all the Amiga models I wanted to collect, I just don't have all working ones, and I fear less will work over time. Now it seems like I probably need a spare of each model just so I can diagnose what is wrong in some cases.
Sorry about this Bif, many amiga computers I have come accross that sat for long periods of time without being used have had issues. 3000's in particular like to be used and maintained, if a battery leaked on a 3000 you will very likely have problems. The most common failure I have found in a 3k is a black screen with a dim led, when you select on and off the caps lock it will stop after 7 or so times. Many time this is the CPU, all you need to do is get a cheap accelerator to test this, and you can have a working 3k once again. The battery placement of a 3000 has a better chance to destroy something important, because of the vital surroundings.
Don't be afraid if the surface damage looks bad, believe it or not 3k's with the least amount of physical surface damage tend to be the most damaged. If the acid destroyed the surface coating and not hide between the board it is a better sign.
Good luck...
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Not so fast! What about A1200s and A600? Their motherboards are the same as peecee motherboards, because everything except the Kickstart roms are surface mounted, and most of the chips are the ones with those tiny pins. Just try to repair that.
If some caps break, then you'll be able to change these on a peecee motherboard easily enough.
Bottom line: It's mostly the same kind of technology, and what you can and can't repair relies purely on what's broken, and whether or not you have the skill to fix the problem.
The 4000 uses the same SMT chips .... that didn't stop me fixing it. :)
The point is that Amigas have standardised parts that are the same in all machines, I.e. all AGA machines use Paula, Alice etc.... so there's lots if them about. With a PC, you need to replace a particular part that will have been used a lot, but also thrown out because they're commodity parts... and it's very difficult in such a fast changing market to find a donor machine with exactly the right replacement part. To repair an A4000, just buy an a1200.
Not only that, but people are designing FPGA replacements for Amiga chips, but who's going to do that for a VL82C107FC or something?
Replacement parts for Amigas will be available long past the parts necessary to keep ok PCs running. It's not the skill to repair a machine that's lacking, it's the parts. Anyone can learn to repair machines, but very few have their own manufacturing plants! Thank goodness for FPGA though, this way there its hope even when thee originals have all gone.
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Someone mentioned the other day that Amiga and other old consoles and computers will slowly die. Do you think that our old amigas and computers will work in 5 years or 10 years?
I don't remember the exact details, but according to research I read about, the printed circuit boards are bound to degrade 30-40 years after they were manufactured.
Collectors of video game consoles, especially the earliest kind made in the 1970'ies (Pong, Tank, Space Invaders, etc.), are likely the first who will be affected by boards breaking down. Unlike the components soldered onto them, replacing the boards may be very difficult. The earliest single layer boards may not pose much of a challenge, but fast forward to 1985, the Amiga 1000 board may do.
Anyway, you might want to check out what video game console collectors have learned about the matter.
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The main thing that will kill all equipment is the capacitors. They will only last about 25 years (less if you use them a lot). And when they go bad, they cause other things to fry. Replace all the electrolitic caps in your unit (and it's power supply) and run those things past your retirement age. :) (All warrantees are off if you get an unprotected power surge the house though)
Plaz
I got a ZX81, ZX Spectrum and C64 that all scoff at your 25yo capacitor limit. Average of 30YO and counting.....
Agree capacitors are the soft point over all the other components...
It's a pity she wont live forever, but then again who does?
You should be wary of experts that advise how long things will last. I remember the line that cassettes and computer tapes will only last 5-7 years maximum. 30 years later, still loading fine.
I heard that 2000 years ago Roman jewellery experts used to say that bronze broaches would only last 100years max. I don't suggest you bury your A1200 in a peat bog though....
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From my personal experience, it is much better to leave them on 24/7. Letting them sit or turning them on and off causes failures.
Sitting in less than ideal conditions causes corrosion. Keeping a system always warm and running in such an environment can help stop corrosion problems like in chip sockets.
But at the same time this dries out the caps faster. Caps help regulate voltages. Also switching circuits give a "kick" at startup. Once the kick is in, it's not needed until next startup. So.... long running trusty equipment finally has a loss of power for any number of reasons. You try to power it back on, a switching circuit tries to kick, but shorts out instead because of a dry cap. It now fries many more components long with it. Once again giving rise to the legend of "leave it running". If instead the system had it's worn out components replace ahead of the failure.... it would run for a long long long time despite repeated power cycles.
My experience.... 32 years in equipment repair.
Plaz
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I got a ZX81, ZX Spectrum and C64 that all scoff at your 25yo capacitor limit
:) I don't call it a limit, more of an average. Also the size and manufacture has much to do with it. 2200uf cap... 15y maybe. 1uf cap perhaps 35y. Point is, if you want to keep your cool old electronics.... replace those dudes.
My most enjoyable references for component lifespan is in the arcade boxes I repair from the 70's
Plaz
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I got a ZX81, ZX Spectrum and C64 that all scoff at your 25yo capacitor limit. Average of 30YO and counting.....
I bet you many of those capacitors aren't actually the capacitance they were 30 years ago, though.
Seriously, change all the caps in your Spectrum, and the 7805 regulator while you're at it, and see what the display looked like when it was new!
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Seriously, change all the caps in your Spectrum, and the 7805 regulator while you're at it, and see what the display looked like when it was new!
Considering that most people were using Spectrums on 20" second hand ex-rental TV sets manufactured in the 1970s, a blurred, fuzzy and flickering display is what most of them got when their machines were new. Aging caps just help to retain the effect. :D
(I used my C64 on a back & white portable TV for years as our only colour TV was in the living room)
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Part of the "effect" of original Spectrums is also that they die quite often, and not changing the caps will certainly help that. To be fair, I've not actually seen a Spectrum damaged by bad caps (though I have seen ones that don't work because of them - but they've not affected any other parts) - but I prefer to be safe.
Some effects are best avoided. :P
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@som99.
Thanks, I was thinking about buying one of these mechanical keyboards. Even if I prefer the real M look, I can cope with a little of modernity.
Do these blue switchs give you a real M keyboard feeling ? Because I tried some new mechanical keyboard, especially for gamers, and I was greatly disappointed. Maybe the switch doesn't do everything !
I consider it important to work on a good keyboard. As being an intensive computer user it's vital. Such a shame, I can't find an azerty Unicomp keyboard in my country. And too bad, all the ancient keyboards of our aged computer models can't be found today. Vintage is the trend. So what are they waiting for ? In fact, I even thought that it could be a good idea to launch a factory producing old keyboards of every vintage brands (commodore, amstrad, sinclair, ...)
I'll have a look at your recommendation.
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(I used my C64 on a back & white portable TV for years as our only colour TV was in the living room)
So did I...and then once or twice per year I'd take the C64 downstairs and hook it up to the huge (20" or something) colour tv and it was like "WOW!! COLOUR!!". All the games were like brand new again...had to play them all to see how they'd look. :)
I still have that same B&W ferguson portable.
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Somewhere around here I have an old Slot-1 Pentium-II board (remember those?) that lived inside my server for a while back in the late 90s. The board itself was 1996 vintage, not much younger than the newest A1200s. Don't recall what the occasion was but around three, four years ago I put power to it and it fired right up and ran memtest86 just fine.
So make of it what you will.