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Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: AAACHIPSET on June 10, 2012, 01:13:07 PM

Title: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: AAACHIPSET on June 10, 2012, 01:13:07 PM
i enjoy  my 1200 ..truely  with the  cd  fast readin  an writing ,90 meg ram
blizzard 030/50/fpu  .2 compact flash 4 gig cards ..indivision aga (fantastic)  an  lots  whdownload  games  ..fully registered  i might add  as well as the ability to play doom an even doom 2 running of the cd  i am quite happy  ..spoilt  i think  ..but id still like a ppc card  ...the chances  of  gettin one in australia  seems  unlikley  in good condition  ..ive  been thinking  about a sam
or similar  ppc  machine  ..that would  mean another computer  an monitor an i dont know if i can justify it ..cost  prob  similar  between a ppc/060 for the 1200  ..as  a sam  etc  ...was  gonna hold  out  hoping for a natami  but who knows when that will ever appear ..be like waiting for the AAAchipset  ..as i did before  ..id  like  to be able  to play  with a ppc machine  ..run  os4 ..an go online  with  my amiga  ..my  1200  cant  go online  ..where would i plug the broadband?? ...an although  i still want to network it eventually  to my pc
an get a usb  card  i still cant  see  it really being a net machine  ...a ppc based  amiga  can  go online  etc ...anyway  enuff rambling  ..opinions  wanted  ..those who have a ppc card on the 1200 aga only  an or  a sam  machine  with  0s4  what is it like  ..is it worth the money?? ..the time?
opinions  please ..
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: pampers on June 10, 2012, 01:22:12 PM
In my opinion it's not worth:

- absolutely insane price
- ok, you will install os 4.1 classic but it will be slow as hell
- no moder morphos support
- using it under os 3.x doesn't make too much sense.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: wawrzon on June 10, 2012, 01:24:30 PM
no. i keep my csppc only for the scsi interface and compact form. dont use ppc side any much. might as well sell it some day.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: Piru on June 10, 2012, 01:29:33 PM
If you insist on OS4 your options are either insanely expensive or underpowered.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: Kronos on June 10, 2012, 01:33:10 PM
Buy a 2nd hand MacMini,PowerMac,eMac or PowerBook with G4-CPU and install MorphOS (http://www.morphos-team.net/). Will set you down just 100-300 Euro (depending on which HW you choose) and will give you as much modern PPC-Amiga as one can get.

Just read the FAQ to make sure you buy a supported model.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: gazgod on June 10, 2012, 01:45:54 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;695910
no. i keep my csppc only for the scsi interface and compact form. dont use ppc side any much. might as well sell it some day.


I must agree, as the owner of a csppc, a ppc on a classic is about as much use as tits on a bull.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: nasty on June 10, 2012, 01:56:04 PM
I spent a lot of money on building up my Amiga 1200 with all the bells and whistles (did it a few times) and for all you gain I personally don't think (now) it worth the hassle and expense.

I mostly used my Amiga for gaming and gfx work and it was nice to play games like hereticII, wipeout and nightlong but you can get all these games that run better on a pc for next to nothing.  So once I sold my BPPC's I decided I needed my Amiga fix and my first thought was OS4 but the price yet again was something to think about.

But then a few people recommend MorphOS, so I looked into that and with MOS having a FAB hes sorted all my amiga needs and Morphos is a system you can use everyday. So Morphos on a mini mac was a perfect replacement for myself. so if you going to go NG then personally ask questions and more question,watch videos and see what system is for you!
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: Karlos on June 10, 2012, 03:11:01 PM
I have the BlizzardPPC+BVision combination. They were expensive enough when they were new and they've only gotten moreso since.

My first caution then is the price. I really don't believe the classic PPC cards are worth the crazy prices they fetch. However, if you insist...

As for an objective opinion on performance. Well, I have the 040 version. Under OS3.1-3.9, I use the PPC principally for datatypes and media playback. There's no denying that even with the dreaded context switch overhead that it kicks the 040's ass for that. However, I reckon a fast 68060 would do just as well in many cases and potentially better in some. Beyond that, I for the various WarpOS / PowerUP applications and games that were originally written for it. Are there enough of them to be worth it? I'm not sure. Probably not, in reality. Summary: an expensive co-processor for the OS without a large enough library of software to really justify the price IMO.

Then there's OS4. At least your PPC is getting some use, but while using AGA only is possible, but you'll have to make all the same basic cutbacks you'd have to do under 3.x to get usable performance. Chip RAM access is as slow as it ever was and as the PPC can do much more work per unit time than the 040, those wasted cycles spent reading/writing ChipRAM equate to a bigger percentage reduction in real performance. It doesn't help that out of the box, it tries to use display settings that are just too slow (256 colours, gradients, solid window moving/sizing etc).

In short, unless you intend to use a graphics card with it, forget it. With a graphics card, even the BVision, there are some surprises. I found that a few 68K applications I regularly use on 3.9 under RTG ran considerably faster on 4.1 with RTG. I'd say that basically, 4.1 classic is for users that already have PPC and associated expansions rather than someone looking to upgrade.

If you must go PPC, then I'd suggest you focus on getting either a new Sam on which to run OS4.1 or a PPC Mac to run MorphOS (note to self, one has to be careful mentioning these in the same paragraph as it can be rather like using a lighter to illuminate a warehouse full of explosives during a blackout). For some, the choice between the two has become akin to a religious divide but objectively, the latter is cheaper and has been in development for longer. Be prepared to be flamed either way, if you go for 4.1 you'll be regarded as insane by some, if you go for MorphOS you'll be branded a heretic by others ;)

Personally, I'd suggest that if you want to stay "classic", look for the fastest 68060 card you can get and give PPC a miss. Otherwise you'll need to buy more than just an already priced-as-if-made-of-gold PPC board for your A1200.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: spirantho on June 10, 2012, 05:56:31 PM
I'd also look out for a second hand Sam 440ep. I have the 600Mhz one and it's a really nice machine. Plus if you get it second hand it'll likely come with the OS4 license, so you shouldn't end up paying much more than you would do for a PowerMac running MorphOS (OS4 machines can be had for quite reasonable prices now, as people have upgraded to Sam 440s to Sam 460s and XEs to X1000). True, PowerMacs are a fair amount faster, but many people don't need the extra speed (I still enjoy my Sam despite it being slower than many).
It really depends on whether you prefer MOS or AmigaOS 4, but that's an old argument that's entirely down to the user - prefer MOS? Get a PowerMac. Prefer AmigaOS? Get a Sam.

Either way, they're both good options. I wouldn't go the BlizzardPPC route, though, they're expensive, underpowered and unreliable. That said I still enjoy my CSPPC. :)

(My wife says get a PowerMac, because MorphOS is blue and has a pretty butterfly - can't argue with that really :) )
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: motrucker on June 10, 2012, 06:30:21 PM
For what you want to do, the only option that make any sense at all is buy a Mac mini and MorphOS. Get something you can actually use!
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: rvo_nl on June 10, 2012, 06:56:44 PM
well, ofcourse I disagree with most of you.. :)

get that ppc. get the fastest one, like those 060/330mhz versions that you can find on amibay at times. get the bvision. get the pcmcia right-angle adapter and a pcmcia ethernet card. get os4.1. insanely expensive? yes. a very frustrating software installation? yes. prone to breaking down? well, yes.. but definitely worth it one you got it running! imho the most you can get out of the real classic amiga -thats what counts for me. all the other stuff I can do on my pc.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: Havie on June 10, 2012, 07:21:25 PM
Well, I have dreamed of owning a PPC for Amiga 1200 but the cards do seem rather expensive and I suppose you have to ask whether you would get much use out of one?  No good for games (apart from the odd PC conversion - and that's what PCs and Playstations are for) and not a great deal of productivity software?
 
If there was a really modern browser, a copy of open office and good printer drivers then I might be convincec but from what I can see (not having one) - there isn't? (I do see that the OS4 browsers are good but not really anywhere near any of the PC ones).
 
I think you might be better dreaming of an 060 clocked as high as possible.  Definintely more useful for Amiga games and would speed up normal workbench etc.  That's certainly where I might go one day...
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: Karlos on June 10, 2012, 07:44:42 PM
Quote from: rvo_nl;695935
well, ofcourse I disagree with most of you.. :)

get that ppc. get the fastest one, like those 060/330mhz versions that you can find on amibay at times. get the bvision. get the pcmcia right-angle adapter and a pcmcia ethernet card. get os4.1. insanely expensive? yes. a very frustrating software installation? yes. prone to breaking down? well, yes.. but definitely worth it one you got it running! imho the most you can get out of the real classic amiga -thats what counts for me. all the other stuff I can do on my pc.


Don't get me wrong, I love my PPC A1200 and like yourself, enjoy seeing what can be achieved with it. I wouldn't consider myself an enthusiast otherwise. However, I'm also a realist - to build it from scratch now would cost a not inconsiderable amount of money and isn't something I could recommend to someone on a "try it and see" basis.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: klx300r on June 10, 2012, 07:46:14 PM
@ AAACHIPSET

well my 2 cents is you seem happy with your current setup and it doesnt look like adding the fastest PPC card will get you running that much more stuff you already enjoying and most importantly still wont get you up to modern browsing.

With the crazy costs of classics PPC cards nowadays I would rather buy either a new/ used Sam460 with AmigaOS4.1 or if you already have some old Apple hardware lying around your place try MOS. There is also AROS which is making great strides on bog standard PC's as well as netbooks (I personally use AspireOS on an old Netbook and it's great fun)

I personally have found that since moving up to AmigaOs4.1 my 1200 with 030@50 is sadly hardly ever used nowadays as I can do all my net browsing comfortably and my favourite 68k apps & games run great on OS4.1 and seamlessly with great programs like glUAE or RunInUAE. A bonus is you can dual boot into Linux Debian and instantly use the multitude of apps available as well.

The best part of getting a NG Amiga system is the community support whether that be AOS, MOS, or AROS!
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: wawrzon on June 10, 2012, 08:48:00 PM
i refused or rather was not interested in p5 ppc solution since ever i remember. it was even partly the initial reason for me not to invest into the platform anymore since i regarded the technical solution clumsy, halfa$$ed while too complicated and therefore too expensive. it was clear for me that with decisions like this the end of the pole was near.
then i got the ppc board few years ago, wanting even to minimally to improve on what 060 amigas could still do for me. and was bitterly disappointed, getting os4 didnt help any further.
following development of 4.1classic since i admittedly like the w3d readeon support and compositing it got, alas it is not enough for me to invest into it and it doesnt look like it goes in any further (at least in a direction id regard any useful)
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: spirantho on June 10, 2012, 08:52:00 PM
One thing that should be pointed out is that whether you go AmigaOS 4, MOS, AROS and whether you buy the X1000 or an Efika, you're going to have fun with it. All the options are good, each has their own strengths and weaknesses. So really go with what appeals to you at the time.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: michapol on June 10, 2012, 09:37:46 PM
Hi Guys,

This is really interesting, I have an Amiga 1200 which I've done a few upgrades to and was hoping to one day add PPC to it, however I am also planning to get a dedicated PPC machine for OS 4.  That being the case the consensus seems to be that if I'm going to keep the Amiga 1200 running OS 3.x then the PPC is too expensive for what I'll use it for.

I think you've successfully changed my opinion on that one and potentially saved me a lot of money.  Thanks!

On the other hand do you think that Jens Schönfeld would ever make a PPC upgrade card for the A1200 and could it be a faster PPC than the blizzard cards and be potentially more useful or is the Amiga bus just too slow.

Thanks again guys.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: zylesea on June 10, 2012, 09:43:20 PM
Quote from: rvo_nl;695935
well, ofcourse I disagree with most of you.. :)

get that ppc. get the fastest one, like those 060/330mhz versions that you can find on amibay at times. get the bvision. get the pcmcia right-angle adapter and a pcmcia ethernet card. get os4.1. insanely expensive? yes. a very frustrating software installation? yes. prone to breaking down? well, yes.. but definitely worth it one you got it running! imho the most you can get out of the real classic amiga -thats what counts for me. all the other stuff I can do on my pc.


I had a A1200PPC with all the bells and whistles, but once I had my first NG board (Pegasos) I recognized that I actually don't need and miss the A1200 anymore. Eventually it was sold and I never looked back (well,not entirely true: the Delfina lite I am missing a bit). Anyway, my MorphOS machines are way more powerful and provide me more than the A1200 ever did. Having an "Amigalaptop" is übercool!
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: esc on June 10, 2012, 10:16:38 PM
I have to get a PPC card.  Otherwise I have a brand-new, useless G-Rexx PCI.  :)
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: Jose on June 10, 2012, 10:19:40 PM
The logical decision is to keep the A1200 for games/programs that hit the hardware and a dedicated PPC machine for NG AmigaOSes. And I agree, once you've tried an NG AmigaOS there's no going back to the classics, they're still cool for what they are but not more.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: bbond007 on June 10, 2012, 10:22:24 PM
I would upgrade to an 060 and maybe forget the PPC.

The 603e PPC is just not significantly faster than the 060.

I had the 240/060. For me the PPC was used primarily as a MP3 decoder.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: wawrzon on June 10, 2012, 10:22:27 PM
Quote from: esc;695953
I have to get a PPC card.  Otherwise I have a brand-new, useless G-Rexx PCI.  :)


i think you can go for cyberstorm mk3 or a broken csppc with working 68k part, which could spare you some expenses.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: wawrzon on June 10, 2012, 10:29:24 PM
Quote from: michapol;695949
Hi Guys,

This is really interesting, I have an Amiga 1200 which I've done a few upgrades to and was hoping to one day add PPC to it, however I am also planning to get a dedicated PPC machine for OS 4.  That being the case the consensus seems to be that if I'm going to keep the Amiga 1200 running OS 3.x then the PPC is too expensive for what I'll use it for.
i think we were not clear enough, we have to talk you out of getting dedicated os4 machine yet.

Quote
I think you've successfully changed my opinion on that one and potentially saved me a lot of money.  Thanks!
pleasure on our part, even though im cutting my own flesh as a potential seller

Quote
On the other hand do you think that Jens Schönfeld would ever make a PPC upgrade card for the A1200 and could it be a faster PPC than the blizzard cards and be potentially more useful or is the Amiga bus just too slow.

Thanks again guys.

jens schoenfeöd has repeatedly proven being discontent with the ppc route and, as far as i remember, being asked numerous times refused to build such an expansion. mostly for practical and financial reasons. even when it comes to 68k, his hardware is what i would consider rather low end. sorry. i dont think it is likely.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: AAACHIPSET on June 11, 2012, 07:57:52 AM
mmm..interesting  comments...i passed  up a 060 ..the day i got out of hospital  actually  ..always  wondered  if i shouldve  bid  for  it  ..went  for  410.00 aussie  dollars  ...i think if a ppc  appears  at a good price  ill be  tempted  ..but cautious  ..more interested  in network an usb card ..one upgrade  i must reccommend  is the indivision aga card ...dont  think i could  go back to a 1200  without one now..makes  me  wonder though  with all the comments  not so positive  about ppc ..how successful  the new upcoming cards  for the a4000  will be  unless a lot  more  software  hardware  arrives  to back it up ..
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: Linde on June 11, 2012, 09:01:38 AM
The current options for PPC on classic hardware all seem pretty useless to me. If there's anything specific you want to use a PPC for that you can't just fix with a cheap PC, just get a Mac Mini and MorphOS.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: takemehomegrandma on June 11, 2012, 09:45:28 AM
Get yourself a nice, cheap little Mac Mini and MorphOS 3!

:)
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: wawrzon on June 11, 2012, 01:22:03 PM
Quote from: AAACHIPSET;696009
mmm..interesting  comments...i passed  up a 060 ..the day i got out of hospital  actually  ..always  wondered  if i shouldve  bid  for  it  ..went  for  410.00 aussie  dollars  ...i think if a ppc  appears  at a good price  ill be  tempted  ..but cautious  ..more interested  in network an usb card ..one upgrade  i must reccommend  is the indivision aga card ...dont  think i could  go back to a 1200  without one now..makes  me  wonder though  with all the comments  not so positive  about ppc ..how successful  the new upcoming cards  for the a4000  will be  unless a lot  more  software  hardware  arrives  to back it up ..


if you mean the ultimate ppc then it isnt entirely clear how these cards are supposed to be utilized anyway. then again if such a card booted thanks built i 040 into seamless 68k emu running on ppc it might have some use on genuine amiga hardware. on the other hand the question is why to use a ppc and not anything better, but perhaps the modern cpus are just technically too complex to handle within an amateur dev project.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: orange on June 11, 2012, 03:14:53 PM
Quote from: Kronos;695913
Buy a 2nd hand MacMini,PowerMac,eMac or PowerBook with G4-CPU and install MorphOS (http://www.morphos-team.net/). Will set you down just 100-300 Euro (depending on which HW you choose) and will give you as much modern PPC-Amiga as one can get.

Just read the FAQ to make sure you buy a supported model.


you forgot to count in the price of morphos itself (over 100eur!).
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: CSixx on June 11, 2012, 03:42:52 PM
I have a bppc card also and while it's nice to have the ability to run the WarpOS versions of software, there isn't enough to justify the cost.

I own os 4.1Classic, but prefer to run 3.9 instead.
OS4.1 itself runs nice and fast, but all the software written for it generally assumes 4.1 users have more powerful hardware (sam's, peg's, etc..), and is slow on classics. Not to mention with 4.1 you lose access to some valuable software (WHDLoad).

My suggestion is to stick with the 030. And, if you want to run 4.1, get a Sam...
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: utri007 on June 11, 2012, 05:44:44 PM
This is "hate OS4" site, so nobody should ask opinion about OS4 here.

There only few OS4 users here, rest of them has abandonet site or just stopped post anything OS4 related here. If you bought OS4 machine, there are plenty of people who get their sexual pleasure with spoiling others joy.

A OS4 is direct heir of A OS3.x. It is true that MorphOs has currently advantages over OS4, but it is just not be Amiga. Most of them will dissapper whem update 4.2 appears. AND there is no new and dedigated hardware for MorphOS

Sad thing is that every OS4 thread is hijacked with MorphOS fans, in fact they write more to OS4 threads than MorphOS threads.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: krashan on June 11, 2012, 05:59:08 PM
Quote from: orange;696035
you forgot to count in the price of morphos itself (over 100eur!).

In fact it is over 100 only for PowerBooks. For the rest of machines it is 79. For Efika 49 (but I would not recommend an Efika for the thread author, even if Efika does circles around any BPPC/CSPPC board).
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: krashan on June 11, 2012, 06:02:58 PM
Quote from: utri007;696048
AND there is no new and dedigated hardware for MorphOS

True, but this not dedicated hardware is better supported by MorphOS, than dedicated hardware is supported by AmigaOS 4.

Quote from: utri007;696048
Sad thing is that every OS4 thread is hijacked with MorphOS fans

Hint: This is not an AmigaOS 4 thread.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: takemehomegrandma on June 11, 2012, 06:06:55 PM
@orange

Quote from: orange;696035
Quote
Will set you down just 100-300 Euro (depending on which HW you choose)
you forgot to count in the price of morphos itself (over 100eur!).


Not necessarily! :) (hint: "depending on which HW you choose")


@utri007

This is not an "OS4" thread, it's a "PPC" thread, so...
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: takemehomegrandma on June 11, 2012, 06:17:16 PM
Quote from: Krashan;696051
True, but this not dedicated hardware is better supported by MorphOS, than dedicated hardware is supported by AmigaOS 4.


...and cheaper by a magnitude, it's also faster, more easy to obtain, and it comes in flavors ranging from big-box PowerMacs, tiny footprint and compact Mac Minis, and full-blown laptops as PowerBooks. The OS has more features, better features, better stability, better Amiga compatibility, and better performance, etc. It has the best Amiga standards (MUI4, CGX, Poseidon, etc) not only bundled, but *integrated*, and Ambient leaves both Workbench and Wanderer far, far behind. IMHO, it's a non-brainer, but of course, taste is different...
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: Karlos on June 11, 2012, 07:17:33 PM
Quote from: Krashan;696049
...but I would not recommend an Efika for the thread author, even if Efika does circles around any BPPC/CSPPC board.

Sure about that?

[youtube]3GNtOM3ZLQM[/youtube]

That's was recorded running on an OS4.1 A4000 (CSPPC @233MHz), on a beta version of the Permedia2. Which is by far the weakest 3D hardware you can use on any PPC equipped Amiga.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: cha05e90 on June 11, 2012, 07:18:37 PM
Quote from: Krashan;696051
True, but this not dedicated hardware is better supported by MorphOS, than dedicated hardware is supported by AmigaOS 4.


Uah, thin ice. :-) You are right in some specific combinations, false in some other. Hints:

- What part of my "dedicated" Sam440ep is not supported by AmigaOS?
- Which OS did support a peasy Sil3114 SATA card in a Pegasos II while the other didn't?
- Which OS do not support all features of the claimed-to-work-with-hardware? (answer: both)

Neverthless: In general MorphOS HW support is mostly nice, predictable and (except USB and that Poseidon stuff) reliable.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: krashan on June 11, 2012, 07:38:35 PM
Quote from: Karlos;696063
Sure about that?


About some invisible to me Flash crap? I don't know what to say ;-).
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: Karlos on June 11, 2012, 07:46:25 PM
Quote from: Krashan;696068
About some invisible to me Flash crap? I don't know what to say ;-).


Well, since you can't see it, it's Quake 3, running on the least powerful 3D hardware there is for an OS4 equipped classic machine and still managing to turn in a frame rate over a single digit.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: itix on June 11, 2012, 07:53:34 PM
@Karlos

It still doesnt change the fact that BPPC/CSPPC is useless on Amiga. There is no support, it is slow and impossible to find. Even if you fnid one it costs a fortune. Better invest on a fast 060 and if you want PPC get something clocked at 1 GHz or better with AltiVec.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: krashan on June 11, 2012, 07:56:54 PM
Quote from: Karlos;696071
it's Quake 3, running on the least powerful 3D hardware there is for an OS4 equipped classic machine and still managing to turn in a frame rate over a single digit.


I think if Efika could have more RAM than those 128 MB, it would be able to run Quake 3 faster. And BTW 3D speed is only loosely related to CPU performance.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: Karlos on June 11, 2012, 08:06:30 PM
Quote from: itix;696074
@Karlos

It still doesnt change the fact that BPPC/CSPPC is useless on Amiga. There is no support, it is slow and impossible to find. Even if you fnid one it costs a fortune. Better invest on a fast 060 and if you want PPC get something clocked at 1 GHz or better with AltiVec.


If you read my earlier posts, you'll see that I recommend a fast 060 unless he's determined to use PPC.

I don't agree that it's a useless expansion however, it's just stupidly expensive to obtain for a degree of acceleration far less than your G4 class system will offer. If, like me, you already happen to have, say, the 040 based BPPC and accompanying RTG card, the speed increase you get for most OS friendly 68K applications under JIT in OS4.1 is pretty conspicuous. Faster than your typical 060 for a lot of things (pathological cases do exist, of course) and even WUP applications aren't hit by the cache purging context switch overhead that they have to endure under OS3.x, meaning they are often quite a bit quicker too.

Ironically it's OS4 native software it is less well equipped for, simply because of the performance gap between the old L2 cacheless 60x boards and the newer PPC systems that superseded them.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: Karlos on June 11, 2012, 08:11:29 PM
Quote from: Krashan;696075
I think if Efika could have more RAM than those 128 MB, it would be able to run Quake 3 faster. And BTW 3D speed is only loosely related to CPU performance.

That's only true if you are dealing with a graphics system that does all the calculations for you, preferably offloading them to hardware T&L and clipping.

Warp3D is not that system and even if it were, the Permedia2 has absolutely no T&L acceleration of any kind whatsoever (you count yourself lucky that it at least has a delta unit to subdivide triangles into screen-aligned trapezoids and even then there can be times it's quicker to do it on the CPU).

The CSPPC in that video is delivering a considerably better framerate, for the same 3D card, than my humble BPPC. Which can play it, just. Not that you'd want to :D

-edit-

Incidentally, the CSPPC had 128MB of RAM too.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: klx300r on June 11, 2012, 08:18:04 PM
Quote from: Karlos;696063
..That's was recorded running on an OS4.1 A4000 (CSPPC @233MHz), on a beta version of the Permedia2. Which is by far the weakest 3D hardware you can use on any PPC equipped Amiga.

damn that's smooth and quick for that ol classic beast running OS4.1:eek:
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: Karlos on June 11, 2012, 08:22:28 PM
Quote from: klx300r;696080
damn that's smooth and quick for that ol classic beast running OS4.1:eek:


Yeah I was pretty surprised myself when I saw it and I wrote the damn driver for 4.1 :lol:
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: klx300r on June 11, 2012, 08:24:27 PM
Quote from: utri007;696048
This is "hate OS4" site, so nobody should ask opinion about OS4 here.
....
Sad thing is that every OS4 thread is hijacked with MorphOS fans, in fact they write more to OS4 threads than MorphOS threads.

well sadly this is mostly true on this site nowadays; however, this thread is about PPC options for classics versus going to a NG Amiga system (whether the NG system is OS4.x, MOS, or AROS is the OP's decision)
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: Karlos on June 11, 2012, 08:28:27 PM
Quote from: klx300r;696082
however, this thread is about PPC options for classics versus going to a NG Amiga system (whether the NG system is OS4.x, MOS, or AROS is the OP's decision)

Quite, and I'm sure we'd all prefer it not to turn into a blue v red piddling contest. Besides, I drank a lot of coffee today and I have no doubt that I can pee longer and further than the rest of you put together.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: Piru on June 11, 2012, 08:30:45 PM
Quote from: Karlos;696077
That's only true if you are dealing with a graphics system that does all the calculations for you, preferably offloading them to hardware T&L and clipping.

Warp3D is not that system

Indeed, and MorphOS does not use Warp3D as we know :)
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: klx300r on June 11, 2012, 08:31:55 PM
Quote from: Karlos;696081
Yeah I was pretty surprised myself when I saw it and I wrote the damn driver for 4.1 :lol:

why you humble guy you;) stuff that cool should be posted on every single Amiga site around ! as a matter of fact just being able to get THAT much out of the ol girl is worth maxing out the classic miggy IMHO...**** no wonder any PPC cards for our classics go for totally insane prices! Amigans just can't put a price on pimping out their miggies much like some car guys I know get a 2'nd mortgage (literally) to pimp out their muscle cars just so they can brag about it to other car guys:roflmao:
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: klx300r on June 11, 2012, 08:36:41 PM
Quote from: Karlos;696083
Quite, and I'm sure we'd all prefer it not to turn into a blue v red piddling contest. Besides, I drank a lot of coffee today and I have no doubt that I can pee longer and further than the rest of you put together.

I agree but alas guess which friend of ours immediately posted this comment on this very thread:rolleyes:

"If you insist on OS4 your options are either insanely expensive or underpowered"
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: Karlos on June 11, 2012, 08:43:54 PM
Quote from: Piru;696084
Indeed, and MorphOS does not use Warp3D as we know :)

Of course not, but it doesn't change the fact that if you *were* lumbered with having to support that particular 3D rasterizer (notice I don't use the word accelerator here ;)), you'd also be doing all the work in software too.

In case it was missed, my point is that despite all the handicaps the system featured in the video has, it is still churning out a half-playable framerate, which I'd say demonstrates there is some life in the old dog and claims that the old boards are entirely useless is not really founded.

In my personal experience is any measure, for OS/RTG friendly classic software on such a machine, unless you have a 100MHz 060, you probably aren't going to get a faster 68K experience out of your existing classic hardware. And as I said, the real irony is that it's more recent PPC software for 4.x that struggles, simply because it's generally written on and for faster machines.

The real issue is that such hardware is just too stupidly expensive to be viable compared to the alternatives, whether real 060+3.x, OS4, MOS, AROS or UAE.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: Karlos on June 11, 2012, 08:53:56 PM
Quote from: klx300r;696086
I agree but alas guess which friend of ours immediately posted this comment on this very thread:rolleyes:

"If you insist on OS4 your options are either insanely expensive or underpowered"


You may not like his choice of words, but he does make a valid point. Nobody can deny that there is quite a cost involved if you want a high-end OS4 experience on newer hardware or conversely if you want to run it on classic hardware, you equally have to accept that you are running it on the PPC equivalent of your basic 020 class system of yesteryear.

Your best bet for a reasonable cost/performance OS4 experience as I see it is to source a second hand Sam or A1.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: klx300r on June 11, 2012, 09:13:59 PM
@ Karlos

not denying just sayin;) 'choice of words' usually starts the sparks which almost always start the fire
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: delshay on June 11, 2012, 09:30:34 PM
I almost completed my modification to my Blizzard PPC 300Mhz (no overclocking) its performance is very high and should show better performance than the video in this thread.

It will out perform some other Blizzard PPC cards that claim to be faster or operate faster than 300Mhz

What is the screenmode Quake III in this thread?
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: Karlos on June 11, 2012, 09:45:38 PM
Quote from: delshay;696096
I almost completed my modification to my Blizzard PPC 300Mhz (no overclocking) its performance is very high and should show better performance than the video in this thread.

It will out perform some other Blizzard PPC cards that claim to be faster or operate faster than 300Mhz

What is the screenmode Quake III in this thread?


I am not sure as I didn't make the video. It looks like the default 640x480 but it could be higher.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: delshay on June 11, 2012, 10:01:09 PM
If the video is 640x480 then for sure my Blizzard/Bvision combo is faster. I have always enjoyed 800x600 with very good performance on permedia 2.

Permedia 2 is now showing some very good performance (1024x768) on a small number of PPC 3D games with more tweaks to come.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: klx300r on June 11, 2012, 10:13:16 PM
@ delshay

ohh sounds good..please keep us posted on your results and future videos
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: Karlos on June 11, 2012, 10:18:51 PM
Quote from: delshay;696098
If the video is 640x480 then for sure my Blizzard/Bvision combo is faster. I have always enjoyed 800x600 with very good performance on permedia 2.

Permedia 2 is now showing some very good performance (1024x768) on a small number of PPC 3D games with more tweaks to come.

If you keep boasting about your uber blizzardppc, I'm going to add a feature to the next driver that detects your specific card and reduces the framerate to 2fps whilst playing oompah style tuba music and scrolling a message to taunt you...
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: delshay on June 12, 2012, 04:50:26 AM
Quote from: Karlos;696101
If you keep boasting about your uber blizzardppc, I'm going to add a feature to the next driver that detects your specific card and reduces the framerate to 2fps whilst playing oompah style tuba music and scrolling a message to taunt you...

I am not boasting,just letting some user know how far I have got with my project. Some users don't like overclocking and claim the the Blizzard PPC is to slow. I am going to show all users that the Blizzard card can  match or out perform some Cyberstorm even with its 64bit memory.

I have already shown a overclocked Blizzard PPC to have and hold the world record in memory bandwidth on any classic amiga,not even a Cyberstorm 366Mhz can match it.

What you should be doing is writing a driver if possible to find out what's inside my permedia 2 besides its 250Mhz Ramdac as I can't find the documentation anywhere.

Bvision SGRAM 130Mhz+ (Beta)
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: AAACHIPSET on June 12, 2012, 10:42:56 AM
Quote from: utri007;696048
This is "hate OS4" site, so nobody should ask opinion about OS4 here.

There only few OS4 users here, rest of them has abandonet site or just stopped post anything OS4 related here. If you bought OS4 machine, there are plenty of people who get their sexual pleasure with spoiling others joy.

A OS4 is direct heir of A OS3.x. It is true that MorphOs has currently advantages over OS4, but it is just not be Amiga. Most of them will dissapper whem update 4.2 appears. AND there is no new and dedigated hardware for MorphOS

Sad thing is that every OS4 thread is hijacked with MorphOS fans, in fact they write more to OS4 threads than MorphOS threads.
wow  ...never expected  to get so many  different  views ...it is a hobby  after all ..reminds  me when i used to grow an show  african violets  ..i only  grew  chimeras which are rather special ..an expensive ..an what people would  pay for them was  madness ..i myself  paid  over 100.00  for a baby plant  of one  variety ..anyway  to my  comments  an point  ..why are we hating  0s4? ..i havent  used it  seen it etc ..i run  3.5  on all my machines  cause it  seems to work  best ...i use  xp still on my dual core i5 cause its stable an does what i want ..i run win98 on my laptop cause  to transfer files using pc network  to my amiga  it works  better ..i use what i need to to do what i need to do  ...os4  has some options  that workbench 3 cant offer i guess
decent  browser  comes to mind i think ..i just wanted to throw  my thoughts out to people  who have  used ppc  for a while ..is it overpriced  yes ..could i do everything i wanted to on my pc ..yes ..but thats not the point  ..its a hobby  u get to enjoy yourself  doing  fun  stuff  with ur amiga  again ....i value  peoples opinions on ppc options  thats why i asked ..but i didnt expect it to turn into  mines  bigger than yours ..good  grief .
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: Kronos on June 12, 2012, 01:01:35 PM
Quote from: orange;696035
you forgot to count in the price of morphos itself (over 100eur!).


No, I did not !!

eMacs or lowend PowerMacs can be had for 40Euro is you do some searching.

Now one can surely go beyond 300Euro with an PB5.9+key, but thats not really the point.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: Karlos on June 12, 2012, 08:07:32 PM
Quote from: AAACHIPSET;696142
wow  ...never expected  to get so many  different  views ...it is a hobby  after all


Well, it's normal for people to be passionate about their hobbies. There are basically two PPC offshoots and some folk have strong opinions about which you should be using. MorphOS has been around a long time and was at the outset the de facto next gen AmigaOS as far as most users were concerned. Prior to that, all we had was OS3 with WarpOS and PowerUp, which was never a truly satisfactory combination. When I first saw MOS boot up on my blizzppc it seemed we were finally getting the chance to use this freakish accelerator board I'd spent a kidney on as it was truly intended.

And then excrement and fans combined, as they so often do in Amigaland and before you know it, everything is up in the air again. MorphOS continued to be developed but dropped support for the classic machines back in the 1.x days, which is a great shame in my opinion, but I suspect I am in a minority there and seeing it on G4 class hardware, it's probably not surprising.

Quote
 ..why are we hating  0s4? ..i havent  used it  seen it etc ..i run  3.5  on all my machines  cause it  seems to work  best


OS4 became the official successor to OS3.x at a time when a lot of users were still understandably aggrieved over this turn of events. Personally I was happy that there would be an official successor, particularly one that I can still run on my ageing A1200 :)

Quote
...os4  has some options  that workbench 3 cant offer i guess
decent  browser  comes to mind i think ..i just wanted to throw  my thoughts out to people  who have  used ppc  for a while ..is it overpriced  yes ..could i do everything i wanted to on my pc ..yes ..but thats not the point  ..its a hobby  u get to enjoy yourself  doing  fun  stuff  with ur amiga  again ....i value  peoples opinions on ppc options  thats why i asked ..but i didnt expect it to turn into  mines  bigger than yours ..good  grief .


As I said, my opinion is that OS4.1 on classic is great for accelerating your existing software, or at least the software that can run under JIT. However, it's not so great for running more recent OS4 native software, simply because it tends to be written on and for faster machines. A bit like having a vanilla 020 in the days when everybody else has 060.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: spirantho on June 12, 2012, 09:31:24 PM
Basically, Karlos gets it right there.

AmigaOS 4.x is a brilliant OS, but on the BPPC or CSPPC it's little more than a toy. The other machines are the ones for which OS4 apps are written, usually, so it suffers on speed.
This is exacerbated by the amount of ports from the non-Amiga (i.e. faster) platforms there are for OS4, which makes the problem seem even worse.

That said, though, Amigas are for the most part toys. Sure, they can be used for serious things, but most of us use them because they're fun. So in that respect AmigaOS 4 on the BPPC/CSPPC fits the bill perfectly.

My A4000 on which I'm typing this is the only machine on which I can run OS4 and OS3 apps by dual-booting, and for that reason it classes as "cool" in my book. Sure it's not as practical as other solutions, so I would recommend it to complement a new AOS4/MOS machine, not to replace it.

Now if you'll excuse me, I think after having written this post in an OS4 browser, I fancy a game of slamtilt. On my Amiga, using an Amiga keyboard, and an Amiga AGA chipset. No PowerMac or AmigaOne can do that.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: Karlos on June 12, 2012, 09:49:17 PM
Furthermore, compatible 68K applications that expect the real native hardware to be present run a lot better under 4.1 on a genuine classic machine than they do when emulating everything in UAE on faster OS4 machines if comparisons between my 4.1 A1200 (603e 240MHz) and 4.1 A1 XE (G4 800MHz) are anything to go by. That will probably change as UAE on OS4 matures though.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: spirantho on June 12, 2012, 09:56:10 PM
Funny you should say that.
I came across my Sim City 2000 disks on my way to my Slam Tilt ones.

I installed it (this in OS 4) straight from the disks, and ran it, not expecting much.
It gave a yellow alert of the font being corrupt, and came up with the screen requester, allowing me to use any screenmode I wanted, as long as it was PAL Hi-Res Interlaced (SC2000 doesn't use RTG).
Not expecting much, I launched it, and switched my TV to use SCART instead of VGA...

... and it works perfectly! I played it a bit and it ran at a good speed; even the display was nice because the TV is a TFT one which automatically scan-doubles. The graphics were still a little slow, as you'd expect for AGA, but just seeing it under OS4 natively is very cool.
I shall have to give John (Jones-Steele - who ported it) a virtual pat on the back next I see him - he works in the office opposite.
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: vox on June 13, 2012, 03:14:31 AM
Quote from: AAACHIPSET;695908
i.those who have a ppc card on the 1200 aga only  an or  a sam  machine  with  0s4  what is it like  ..is it worth the money?? ..the time? opinions  please ..


Maxed out SAM 440 ~700Mhz, 1G RAM and Radeon 9250 is fairly usable machine, However, its one step away from SAM 460 Lite that is 1Ghz, has faster RAM and is able to use RadeonHD. Either SAM 460 Lite or used Pegasos II with MorphOS and OS 4 would be my recommendations for many reasons.

SAM below 700Mhz is slow for Timberwolf and AmiCygnix and you do want productivity?

Classic option would be to wait for Natami or Ultimate PPC
http://ultimateppc.nl/

But no one knows when they will appear ...

Remember that OS 4.2 will come sooner or later and RadeonHD will be the next big thing and only SAM 460 and X1000 can do it :) And maybe Peg2 with AGP RadeonHD, Radeons HD exist for older PCI slot but are rare to find and extremnely overpriced. MOre OS acell should also goi to gfx card.

To be honest, best option is to save, save, save money and buy X1000,
Compared to SAM 460 similar system its less then 2x expensive, but offers 2 cores, complete system, Xena, fastest RAM and HDD speed, 10xUSB and when board will be supported 3 spare slots. And SAM 440 and 460 are industrial boards, picky, hard to expand with little space on it
Title: Re: opinions on ppc options ..please
Post by: vox on June 13, 2012, 03:18:44 AM
Quote from: Karlos;696195
Furthermore, compatible 68K applications that expect the real native hardware to be present run a lot better under 4.1 on a genuine classic machine than they do when emulating everything in UAE on faster OS4 machines if comparisons between my 4.1 A1200 (603e 240MHz) and 4.1 A1 XE (G4 800MHz) are anything to go by. That will probably change as UAE on OS4 matures though.


This is big advantage of OS 4.1 Classic users. We badly need some software reimplementation of AGA (since we have CPU emulation) or some "redirection sofrware" like NallePuh used to be (redirects Paula to AHI, there is CIA emulaton also, we need just the AGA gfx chip emulated to RTG)