Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: AAACHIPSET on May 10, 2012, 07:36:52 PM
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been checking the natami site on an off a few years now ..seems that a few boards are actually made an the project may end up being a reality ..what ive seen on youtube looks pretty good an to me this machine seems like it is a real upgrade to the amiga1200 ..new chipset 060? etc ..
it is a real amiga an could be used to play all the older games ecs/aga an a new lot of games probably will follow ..given that the amiga is a hobbist computer now an not a world beater anymore how many people on this site are curious enough to part with there money an actually give it a go ..a1200 machines wont be around forever ..being in australia im a long way away but if it sold at a reasonable price id be willing to pay ..
opinions please ?
ps...be cool if it had a ppc upgrade ..?
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Im definately getting a natami.I hope it's finished by the end of 2013 or such.
I don't care what I have to pay really. I hope it can come all set up in a proper amiga case maybe the daddys case in another colour would work. I and I think others would have difficulty putting the board into a case properly.It would also sell better for sure if it comes fully ready to run out of the box.I think everyone should get one and make the natami a success thus perpetuating the likelihood of a natami 2.I hope the natami guys pull it off they have come too far now.
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I would definitely purchase a Natami system, if it becomes a reality. Something like this could be a real shot in the arm to the Amiga community. I certainly hope it happens.
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The team has gone to ground recently, presumably to get the thing working properly without the Amiga FanNerd noise to get in the way. But the lack of updates has been quite noticeable this year.
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amiga fannerd noise?
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Assuming it winds up at something I can afford and not X1000 prices, I'm totally buying one.
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Assuming it winds up at something I can afford and not X1000 prices, I'm totally buying one.
I belive they said boards will be in 500-700 eur, so kind of SAM range.
Boards is still only in hands of developers, but its quite sure you will all be buying Natami MX board.
Software looks like getting ready starting with AROS Vision 68k?
So it could be even late this year?
*The MX board features:
-Altera FPGA from the Cyclone IV-series, containing the enhanced Amiga chipset "SuperAGA" as well as other system logic, and the brand new 68k CPU design "N68050"
-512 MB DDR2 SDRAM (onboard)
-1x PCI slot, expandable to 3x PCI with a PCI riser
-"SyncZorro" expansion slot, for adding f.e. a CPU card (68060 card will be available as an option for this slot)
-DVI-I port for 31kHz video (one can connect both analog VGA and digital DVI), scandoubling function for legacy modes
-15kHz RGB-output/input expansion slot (for optional 15kHz card)
-Realtek RTL8110 Gigabit Ethernet
-NEC USB2 controller and USB ports
-3,5 inch IDE port
-Internal Compact Flash connector (IDE)
-Kickstart flash memory
-Floppy connector (Amiga and PC drives both usable)
-Amiga serial port (although reduced to 9-pin)
-Amiga parallel port
-2x Amiga joystick/mouse port
-4x Cinch/RCA connectors for stereo sound output and input
-PS/2 keyboard/mouse ports (old bigbox Amiga keyboards are connectable)
-Classic Amiga LED:s along with scandoubler LED
Natami MX pictures:
http://www.natami.net/hardware.htm
Natami MX bringup thread:
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=33366
http://www.natami.net/blog/
http://www.natami.net/download/documentation/NatAmi_MX.pdf
http://www.natami.net/concept.htm
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The team has gone to ground recently, presumably to get the thing working properly without the Amiga FanNerd noise to get in the way. But the lack of updates has been quite noticeable this year.
I have heard that Thomas Hirsch has a new job that may be slowing his progress.
*The MX board features:
-Altera FPGA from the Cyclone IV-series, containing the enhanced Amiga chipset "SuperAGA" as well as other system logic, and the brand new 68k CPU design "N68050"
The N68050 CPU has now become the Apollo CPU to better market outside of Natami. It is now more powerful and superscaler like the 68060. It's being worked on independent of Thomas Hirsch. It's been tested in simulation but not in the Natami fpga yet. The Developer Natami boards are using the 68060.
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Wouldn't it make sense for the NatAmi people and MikeJ to join forces and use the same softcore? To speed things up?
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I belive they said boards will be in 500-700 eur, so kind of SAM range.
Sadly, too rich for my blood... :(
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This project is certainly one that I am most interested in. If we are looking at a €500 to €700 price range then best start saving. Because once my bambino is born I won't have much miggy money to play with.
(My child will be shown what a true computer is too. I will start them with a C64 and then on to Amiga. Obviously once it hits like 1 year old I will start its journy. lol)
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Wouldn't it make sense for the NatAmi people and MikeJ to join forces and use the same softcore? To speed things up?
Not necessarily. The fpgaArcade uses a different brand and size of fpga than the Natami. Also, the fpgaArcade CPU is geared more for compatibility while the Apollo CPU (Natami) is tuned for speed and has enhancements. A free license to use the Apollo core will likely be granted for hobby projects and educational use. Both the Natami and fpgaArcade should fit under this category.
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Im a little conflicted about the Natami. It's potentially a cool project, but I just dont really see any advantage in it vs. my current "powerful" 68k machine in amithlon. In regards to SAGA Im more in favor of what already exists (and is much more powerful) in rtg cards. Any "new" software in my opinion is better off supporting all current amiga systems via rtg/ahi/etc.
Funny enough I really enjoy my classic amiga and get a kick out seeing what can be squeezed out of its hardware, so its not that Im all about power. Just seems a little redundant to me reinventing the wheel with something whose biggest advantage is severely outgunned by what already exists.
Minimig and fpgaarcade are more appealing to me for "real" classic fun, and when I want power a modest upgrade that will get mostly untapped apart from maybe via system friendly software (which will run better elsewhere anyway) really doesnt seem a great choice.
Having said this I'll still probably buy one if the price isnt too over the top.
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Not necessarily. The fpgaArcade uses a different brand and size of fpga than the Natami. Also, the fpgaArcade CPU is geared more for compatibility while the Apollo CPU (Natami) is tuned for speed and has enhancements. A free license to use the Apollo core will likely be granted for hobby projects and educational use. Both the Natami and fpgaArcade should fit under this category.
Hi,
Personally I have no interest in licensing a closed source CPU core.
The T68K is continuing to be improved and has reached a good level of compatibility with a 68020 - it's not perfect yet. Next generation cores (I am writing one) are table based and will be much more efficient, especially as we are learning from the 68000 die scans how the microcode is laid out in the original.
It should be possible to get >100MHz 68020 performance in the cheap FPGA the replay
uses.
/MikeJ
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Hi,
Personally I have no interest in licensing a closed source CPU core.
Hi Mike. First, I am not an official spokesman for the Apollo project. Gunnar has talked about releasing the Apollo core source to specific customers under a strict license (and for a hefty fee). You would have to contact the Apollo Team/Gunnar for details and they may not be set in stone yet. I understand that the Apollo core may not be suitable as your main 68k core for various reasons. Perhaps you could optionally allow your customers to use the Apollo core in the fpgaArcade?
The T68K is continuing to be improved and has reached a good level of compatibility with a 68020 - it's not perfect yet. Next generation cores (I am writing one) are table based and will be much more efficient, especially as we are learning from the 68000 die scans how the microcode is laid out in the original.
It should be possible to get >100MHz 68020 performance in the cheap FPGA the replay
uses.
Full 68020 compatibility is not easy while 68000 compatibility is fairly easy. The Apollo core will not be fully 68020 compatible but very 68000 compatible. While most of the 68020 changes were good, we feel that some were mistakes. The Apollo will likely drop and trap some rarely used instructions and addressing modes. That may not be appropriate for the main fpgaArcade 68k core. Good luck in full 68020 compatibility for the T68k ;).
The Apollo core will have some go fast features that will take a lot of work to duplicate like pipelining, Superscaler, instruction combining, new powerful instructions and addressing modes, sophisticated instruction and data caches (including snooping), loop optimizations, branch cache and prediction, etc. How fast the core clocks doesn't tell the whole story but 68020+ support at over 100MHz does look probable. It will be interesting to compare the performance of the TG68k in the fpgaArcade to the Apollo core in the Natami.
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It should be possible to get >100MHz 68020 performance in the cheap FPGA the replay
uses.
/MikeJ
That should be interesting. For years my main Amiga used an overclocked 68020 at 28MHz. Now I use a couple of 68040 CPUs at 40MHz.
How do you expect a soft 68020 at 100MHz to stack up against the real 68060 at 100MHz on the daughterboard?
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Oooh! Do I hear the sounds of a healthy competition? :D
Go on teams! Fight! I will buy both machines!
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How do you expect a soft 68020 at 100MHz to stack up against the real 68060 at 100MHz on the daughterboard?
If the soft 68020 has the same internal timings as a hard 68020/68030, then it will only be twice as fast as a 50 mhz 68030. In other words, the '060 will probably be around four to five times faster still.
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@ Thorham:
Thank you for that info. I've never owned a 68060 board so I've got no practical experience to gauge the speed difference of one. :)
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I belive they said boards will be in 500-700 eur, so kind of SAM range.
That lets me out. That kind of pricing will severely limit their sales potential across the board.
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If the soft 68020 has the same internal timings as a hard 68020/68030, then it will only be twice as fast as a 50 mhz 68030. In other words, the '060 will probably be around four to five times faster still.
The timings should be significantly better than the 68020/68030 for both soft cores. Most instructions in the Apollo core will have similar or better timing than the 68060. Memory speed is faster and caches are bigger. There is a link stack for subroutines which the 68060 does not have. The Apollo core should be able to outperform a 50MHz 68060 at least. We'll have to see compared to a 68060@100MHz ;).
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Starting to have my doubts after seeing this posted over at the Natami site:
Dear fans of Natami!
Sorry for the long silence. After discussing important matters on the team, we hereby announce the need to reorganize the project.
Due to unreasonably high expectations on the team side regarding time frames and foremost forgetting about Thomas' original intentions for what Natami is supposed to be, Thomas has decided to seclude himself as of now and to peacefully finish what he has begun, without having to follow unrealistic time frames and expectations.
We as a team feel that all you strong Natami followers deserve a better treatment than being confronted with a wall of silence, while eagerly awaiting news and progress.
Natami is going to be finished, yet not necessarily under that exact
name (for reasons not to be debated). What name it will be, is Thomas' choice.
So, if you don't mind a Natami-like machine being officially available at some (as of now yet uncertain) point in time and want to stick with it anyways, you're very welcome. Should you think that other projects seem more wortwhile in the light of
things, please follow your wishes.
That kind of fairness and openness is the least we have to treat our strong Natami fans with.
Best regards to all you great supporters
Team Natami
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Whilst I think this project could have been cool. I think this turn of events is not exactly surprissing. I am guessing several walls have been hit
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Whilst I think this project could have been cool. I think this turn of events is not exactly surprissing. I am guessing several walls have been hit
Care to speculate? Anyway i think this is bad news. I was waiting for one of these. What's wrong with the name?
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Care to speculate? Anyway i think this is bad news. I was waiting for one of these. What's wrong with the name?
I think this is probably good news. The scope of the project had gotten way out of control. It sounds like Thomas has now refocused on a more realistic scope. The Natami that everybody wanted would have taken years to complete.
I wish them luck.
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Care to speculate? Anyway i think this is bad news. I was waiting for one of these.
The Natami specs just kept getting better and better, plus the design of a new and improved CPU must count as an entire project on its own. There was a hell of a lot of work going on here and (in my opinion) they might have been better off producing several motherboards, each one improving on the next, or perhaps taking a similar route to the FPGA Arcade where you can sell a functioning "super A1200+" board and then work on an expansion board to add additional features and turn it into an Amiga 5000.
This is a real shame, but at least the project is still alive. Meanwhile we still have FPGA solutions for classic fans while we wait.
What's wrong with the name?
Perhaps AmiNat sounds better.
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funny part is that the guy behind the project leaves the team, so who remains and what will they do without him, maintain the forum?
however it looked dull since longer time, i really wondered how a private person is able to maintain the project single handedly year for year. this had to happen.
good thing is the fpga arcade remains for those who need it even if it exhibits a little similar pattern.
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Ah well, the naysayers called it on the nose. So much for the Natami.
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...and feature creep claims yet another victim :(
I'm still hopeful that something will come of this, but I'm not going to be holding my breath...
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...and feature creep claims yet another victim :(
I'm still hopeful that something will come of this, but I'm not going to be holding my breath...
Babbage Syndrome. Get almost done, then think of something even cooler.
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I always thought the the Natami scope was way too large, better to aim for something like the FPGA Arcade (and because it's FPGA based, expand it after it is released).
Talking of the FPGA Arcade....are we there yet????
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I can't spend £400-450 on an FPGA Amiga.
The reason is classic 2D Amiga games all run the same whether you have an 060 or a 7mhz 68000.
I'm not even sure how much FPGA Arcade or Minimig costs but to be honest this whole FPGA thing is a dead end unless Jeri Ellsworth mass produces her system for the equivalent of £50 it's just not worth it.
Probably be a better idea to make this 68050 FPGA softcore into an accelerator and sell it for £150-200 for high sales volume.
(Sorry if this offends people, just my opinion given how good WinUAE is)
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I'm not even sure how much FPGA Arcade or Minimig costs but to be honest this whole FPGA thing is a dead end unless Jeri Ellsworth mass produces her system for the equivalent of £50 it's just not worth it.
Amiga is a bit more complex than a C64 in a joystick... Im sure the higher costs involved reflect alot of R&D time, etc... I think FPGA Arcade is around the $500USD markish cant remember.. but at least its not a CUSA $2000 jobbie which is just a regular PCcceee!
Just my thoughts..
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Amiga is a bit more complex than a C64 in a joystick... Im sure the higher costs involved reflect alot of R&D time, etc...
Jeri had already done alot of the work for the C-One before the DTV. So most of the R&D time had already been paid for or written off. It probably wouldn't have happened if they'd had to pay her for all her time up front.
The C64 was a much better known computer than the Amiga, so the cost of hardening the design into an ASIC and mass production was worth it. I don't think we'll see the situation repeated.
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Personally I don't need hardware based emulation, I'd rather put all my money in one powerful machine and run other systems virtually.....
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The interesting thing is that now, with smart phones and tablets and the WEB all over, I find myself using my "computers" less and less (not counting work of course).
I still watch videos and such, but my tablet does that.
I'm not a serious FPS gamer, so that doesn't bother me.
I don't do anything that requires a graphics/sound/video workstation.
So, I've found that with my tablet sitting by me, I use my older computers much more than I use to...
It's funny too, one of the things I use my tablet for most (or the laptop, I haven't even turned on the desktop in months and months) is Amiga forums.
Honestly, if there was a 68k Amiga fast enough to support a decent web browser, I'd do that much more. I'd rather use my Amiga for browsing rather than the tablet.
In fact, I do going to Aminet and eabmobile. The Amiga.org proxy is OK, but not quite good enough on my 1230/28.
So, a 68k Amiga running near 100Mhz, especially with Picasso emulation and more CHIP RAM, I could see being very useful..
The Natami extras sound really great, but I'm not sure they'd be worth much more to someone like me....
Ideally, a really fast FPGA Arcade that fit inside an Amiga case using an Amiga keyboard and floppy, but with some expanded graphics... That would be very very very tempting... ;-)
I can see Natami doing that perfectly also, but the cost might be too much for me..
desiv
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Natami is a monumental waste of time. Nerd trophy at best, monument to the square wheel at worst.
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Natami is a monumental waste of time. Nerd trophy at best, monument to the square wheel at worst.
A square wheel with wings so it might fly, so no use for that square wheel. It's quite clear, by the way, you don't need one, but some of us will love to use that "old" new piece of technology which resembles true Amiga. Not all of computing needs are based on MIPS and FPS stuff, I think.
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it is a waste time as all the PPC based systems are. It is a fun thing and some would have liked to use it. Hobby, perhaps nostalgic to a certain degree. If we all would be "rational" we all would not be here :-).
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A square wheel with wings so it might fly, so no use for that square wheel. It's quite clear, by the way, you don't need one, but some of us will love to use that "old" new piece of technology which resembles true Amiga. Not all of computing needs are based on MIPS and FPS stuff, I think.
...which is an odd thing to say, since the Amiga has had accelerator cards from day one, and since 1993 and the release of DOOM, Amigans have been saying "We can do that! We can do that!" :)
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the thing is that it's all very vague over on the natami forums.Are the rest of the team still involved in the creation of the natami or is it just thomas the hardware guy working completely alone? can one man however skilled realistically develop such a system on his own?I ask cos I don't know.A little clarity would go a long way about such matters.Obviously the team don't have to divulge anything private just some clarification as to what is happening.
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Natami is a monumental waste of time. Nerd trophy at best, monument to the square wheel at worst.
Yeah, so? Plenty of enjoyable things in life aren't useful in a strict efficiency sense, doesn't make them not worthwhile, unless you're a joyless loser who thinks of "fun" as a waste of time.
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can one man however skilled realistically develop such a system on his own?I ask cos I don't know.
Minimig was done by one man working alone, I think that serves as some sort of proof that yes this is possible and past-tense. MikeJ Is doing yet another FPGA board all alone, and working on various cores to put into it. Natami is any different? Yet another another FPGA board with yet another Amiga core in it... Didn't Jens pretty much complete Clone-A, but wasn't satisfied that AI could legitimately license him to sell it as a full system? These guys are not Mick Tinker... :p
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Honestly, if it's a faster Amiga blitter with more chip-RAM you're after, WinUAE is the way to go. If it's all that plus you want "the feel of hardware on real 68k processors" FPGA-Arcade is the way to go. If you've gotta have all of that and don't want to spend the bank, Mini-Mig.
I think Natami may wind up going the way of Mick Tinker's project(s), which while a shame is just kind of the way it goes.
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After years and years of teases,updates, changes, still no release date. I don't think it will ever happen. I was interested in this, until I realized I could simply remove windows shell and boot straight to os3.x with winuae.
That 3ghz pc cost me 30$ on ebay. And its here right now.
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That 3ghz pc cost me 30$ on ebay. And its here right now.
WinUAE on a standard x86 PC. Hero. And - by the way - irrelevant and off topic.
On topic: I really would welcome a Mini-Mig on steroids - it doesn't have to be the "wonder machine" that was PR'd by some of the team members.
Natami is a monumental waste of time.
Wasn't it you who had spend hours and hours of precious life time setting up Amigas with that...how is it called...ehm..."Linux"? But maybe I mistake you with someone else...
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minimig on steroids might be as well fpga arcade with the 060 board, and it looks more likely to happen.
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Jeri had already done alot of the work for the C-One before the DTV. So most of the R&D time had already been paid for or written off. It probably wouldn't have happened if they'd had to pay her for all her time up front.
The C64 was a much better known computer than the Amiga, so the cost of hardening the design into an ASIC and mass production was worth it. I don't think we'll see the situation repeated.
Exactly, Jeri told me that whilst the Amiga was a more complex machine than the C64 it also had less undocumented features to replicate in the FPGA code so was actually easier once she got started. Paula Agnus and Denise were replicated in record time and running an A500 motherboard with those chips missing. I think the production costs were going to be a bit higher ($20-30) so the project was cancelled because they wanted it to be more or less the same price as the 64DTV.
The thing doesn't have to go in a joystick but I guarantee you if the 64DTV was $50 the Amiga DTV and hence the small circuit board for it a la Minimig would come in easily under $100.
The fact that Jeri has only been hired for a Commodore or Amiga related project shows what a load of rubbish these licensees are churning out, and at 4-6 the cost of equivalent x86 running Amithlon and OS3.9 setup really.
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Wasn't it you who had spend hours and hours of precious life time setting up Amigas with that...how is it called...ehm..."Linux"? But maybe I mistake you with someone else...
You have me mistaken with someone else.
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Yeah, so? Plenty of enjoyable things in life aren't useful in a strict efficiency sense, doesn't make them not worthwhile, unless you're a joyless loser who thinks of "fun" as a waste of time.
Who said anything about efficiency?
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The thing doesn't have to go in a joystick but I guarantee you if the 64DTV was $50 the Amiga DTV and hence the small circuit board for it a la Minimig would come in easily under $100
If you can sell enough to bake an asic then the main cost problem is the storage. But amiga games weren't really suited to a tv game.
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@Digiman
Far be it for me to tell you what to think or say, but Ive gotta say, your obsession with licences is getting pretty weird by now. Let it go guy, sheesh. Rhetorical (ie. please dont re-itterate), but did Cloanto kidnap your puppy or something? I just dont get why what others spend thier time and money doing is of any real consequence. DOnt like it, dont buy it, pretty simple. Your need to defame others simply because its not your kettle of fish is more than a little weird.
@thread
I can only imagine this whole Natami thing has happened on the back of too many backseat passengers giving directions and trying to take credit for Thomas' work? It was quite funny (in a sad sort of way) how many people were all vocal about being part of the "team", but actually did nothing other than try to sound involved on amiga forums :) I could name names, but I suspect people with thier eyes open already know who Im talking about.
I just feel for Thomas having his project stripped of fun by some other peoples fragile egos.
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@Digiman
Far be it for me to tell you what to think or say, but Ive gotta say, your obsession with licences is getting pretty weird by now. Let it go guy, sheesh. Rhetorical (ie. please dont re-itterate), but did Cloanto kidnap your puppy or something? I just dont get why what others spend thier time and money doing is of any real consequence. DOnt like it, dont buy it, pretty simple. Your need to defame others simply because its not your kettle of fish is more than a little weird.
Are you on crack or something boy?
The only sentence referring to licensees is to HARDWARE projects for anything to do with Commodore branding or Amiga branding on hardware. Amiga/C64 Forever is just software and has no connection with the tinkering genius of Jeri. WTF are you talking about?
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WinUAE on a standard x86 PC. Hero. And - by the way - irrelevant and off topic.
On topic: I really would welcome a Mini-Mig on steroids - it doesn't have to be the "wonder machine" that was PR'd by some of the team members.
I agree WinUAE is just an application, an incredible one, but not a physical product like Natami or Minimig so comparison is unfair.
There is nothing wrong with Natami except the price IMO. However you would need to invest something like $1,000,000 to do an FPGA Amiga from scratch to full mass production run as a product to get it well below the magic $100 price barrier. However would you quickly sell 50,000-100,000 units even then to recoup your initial investment from your first batch?
Maybe you might sell more if the machine could connect to something like Apple App store/XBLA/PSN Network style service to buy legally authorised copies of games to use on said machine for a similar price to MP3s on iTunes?
Cost of investment vs potential maximum sales is the issue.
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I agree WinUAE is just an application, an incredible one, but not a physical product like Natami or Minimig so comparison is unfair.
There is nothing wrong with Natami except the price IMO. However you would need to invest something like $1,000,000 to do an FPGA Amiga from scratch to full mass production run as a product to get it well below the magic $100 price barrier. However would you quickly sell 50,000-100,000 units even then to recoup your initial investment from your first batch?
Maybe you might sell more if the machine could connect to something like Apple App store/XBLA/PSN Network style service to buy legally authorised copies of games to use on said machine for a similar price to MP3s on iTunes?
Cost of investment vs potential maximum sales is the issue.
Actually this could easily be done. I think the key is to develop/market the FPGA to markets outside the Amiga community. This way you could sell a lot more than you would if simply targeting the Amiga community. This would include other retro computing markets such as Atari and other markets that may benefit from FPGA what(ever that may be). I said the same thing about TheDaddys x500 too.
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Natami is a monumental waste of time. Nerd trophy at best, monument to the square wheel at worst.
Do you have any imagination whatsoever when it comes to computers? :flak:
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Originally Posted by cha05e90
WinUAE on a standard x86 PC. Hero. And - by the way - irrelevant and off topic.
On topic: I really would welcome a Mini-Mig on steroids - it doesn't have to be the "wonder machine" that was PR'd by some of the team members.
I agree WinUAE is just an application, an incredible one, but not a physical product like Natami or Minimig so comparison is unfair.
Um.. I'm sorry to burst your excitement but both netami and minimig are just emulators... So if they are just emulators then why not just use an x86pc underneath instead of fpga, whats the difference?
smaller case? You can get tiny pc's now a days that fit in any case.
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Originally Posted by cha05e90
WinUAE on a standard x86 PC. Hero. And - by the way - irrelevant and off topic.
On topic: I really would welcome a Mini-Mig on steroids - it doesn't have to be the "wonder machine" that was PR'd by some of the team members.
I agree WinUAE is just an application, an incredible one, but not a physical product like Natami or Minimig so comparison is unfair.
Um.. I'm sorry to burst your excitement but both natami and minimig are just emulators... So if they are just emulators then why not just use an x86pc underneath instead of fpga, whats the difference?
smaller case? You can get tiny pc's now a days that fit in any case.
No they are not.
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@Digiman
Actually I admit I misread what your wrote. Just got so used to you going on about cloanto and decrypted rom images that I automatically assumed you was harping on about it again when I saw you mention licenses. Sorry about that.
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Who said anything about efficiency?
I guess I had inferred that from your statement that Natami is a "waste of time" because it seemed like the obvious course of argument for why something that's a hobby project to scratch the itch of a handful of individuals in a hobbyist community is totally stupid and unjustified in existing, but if I was mistaken, please feel free to enlighten me on what your actual reasoning was.
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Offcourse they are just emulators, as they only mimik (emulate) the chips behaviour as seen from the outside. They might get closer to the orginal then UAE, but thats only due to the efford involved not to the method used.
A real reimplementation would be opening the chips and transfering them to the FPGA gate by gate.
A Minimig might have more emotinal value for you, but the underlying principle is still the same as with UAE.
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If this could drop straight into an A500 case and use the keyboard/mouse/joysticks I'm sold. :-)
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Offcourse they are just emulators, as they only mimik (emulate) the chips behaviour as seen from the outside.
By that argument every modern PC is an emulator. Pretty much nothing in a modern PC uses the same implementation method as the original version of the chips that first defined the "outside behaviour".
Defining emulator that way makes the term absolutely pointless.
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not really modern x86 chips do emulate old behaviours
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Natami is a monumental waste of time.
But wasting time can be so joyful...
greets,
Staf.
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If this could drop straight into an A500 case and use the keyboard/mouse/joysticks I'm sold. :-)
It can (could, should, will, might?). It has an A500 keyboard connector on board.
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No one told me Natami is an emulator. I thought it was real. Good thing I have an A1200 then. Paying a fortune for an emulator my seem a put off for me.
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No one told me Natami is an emulator.
Of course it's an emulator. It doesn't have an Agnus or Paula or Denise...
It uses an FPGA (The P is a clue..).
I thought it was real..
It is real.. They have videos you can see on youtube. :-)
It's not a "real Amiga", but nothing since the last 1200 rolled off the line (or was a CD32 the last Amiga? Anyway, you get what I mean..) has been.
It's emulated in hardware. Of course, LOTS of stuff is emulated nowadays.
The line is very blurry...
Lots of REAL chips have parts that emulate other things by design...
Now, you could say the Natami is more "real" than the FPGA Arcade, because it has more new features that the original Amiga never had.
Then again, the FPGA Arcade lets you have more than 2M CHIP, which the REAL Amigas didn't do, so that's not an "emulated" feature, but a new one.
The fact is, emulation isn't what it used to be...
We need a "Turing Test" for these emulators.
If it can do X (whatever X is) and people can't tell the difference, then it's real, because it's no longer distinguishable from real...
desiv
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Re:The NatAmi team
I was reluctant to join the team because I knew I couldn't afford to buy a prototype NatAmi with the 68060 board included. Now just as I've gotten a source of income and can buy one, Thomas has gone underground. I don't blame him at all for doing so. Gunnar was really hard on Thomas for not accepting help with the chipset design and not doing so in VHDL instead of AHDL.
What resulted in the "too many chiefs, not enough indians" situation was that there were mostly software guys on the team. When it came time to implement the hardware, Thomas wanted to do the chipset himself as the icing on the cake. This is what lead to the current situation. An Amiga without an OCS compatible chipset is no Amiga at all, IMHO. There are still missing features on the NatAmi chipset cores to this day.
While I have a 2-year degree in electronic engineering technology, it's not enough to be able to figure out all of the intricacies of a hardware descriptor language. I had hoped to write drivers for the chipset but started running into insufficiencies of the AmigaOS Graphics.library and not much of a solution in AROS 68k.
While it has been observed that a FPGA is an emulator, it is not a software emulator. It is much more massively parallel than a multicore CPU and can run things much more efficiently. More importantly, it is a step toward a baked chip and even an ASIC if the market will bear the design costs. What the market wouldn't bear, I'm convinced, is both the NatAmi and FPGAArcade boards at the same time.
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What the market wouldn't bear, I'm convinced, is both the NatAmi and FPGAArcade boards at the same time.
Now that I don't agree with.
The FPGA Arcade is a different market than the Natami.
I really liked what the Natami team was working on. I think it was very interesting, but based on the price and the fact that I am really more retro, I knew I was never really in the "target audience."
It's like the X1000 or SAM stuff to me.. Looks great, but not something I would be interested in..
Now, the FPGA Arcade is very tempting to me. It doesn't have all the bells/whistles, but it is MUCH more in the price range.
I think FPGA Arcade competes more with actual Amiga hardware.
Would you want a decked out 1200, or an FPGA Arcade?
There will be some overlap in the middle, but it's like saying a Kia Rio is stealing market share from a Ford Mustang, because some people won't pay more for the Mustang.
As I see it, feature and cost wise, the two products are VERY different with VERY different markets. (With overlap in the middle, and a lot of the overlap people would probably buy both..)
desiv
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Of course it's an emulator. It doesn't have an Agnus or Paula or Denise...
It uses an FPGA (The P is a clue..).
It's emulated in hardware. Of course, LOTS of stuff is emulated nowadays.
The line is very blurry...
Lots of REAL chips have parts that emulate other things by design...
We need a "Turing Test" for these emulators.
desiv
Oh Mighty Zarquon! We're not going to start this "what's the difference between emulation and reimplementation" flame war again, are we? ;-)
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Oh Mighty Zarquon! We're not going to start this "what's the difference between emulation and reimplementation" flame war again, are we? ;-)
Technology changes rapidly.
Word definitions don't...
Semantics can't keep up..
And if you can't discern the difference, is there really one?
:-)
desiv
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Re:The NatAmi team
While it has been observed that a FPGA is an emulator, it is not a software emulator. It is much more massively parallel than a multicore CPU and can run things much more efficiently. More importantly, it is a step toward a baked chip and even an ASIC if the market will bear the design costs. What the market wouldn't bear, I'm convinced, is both the NatAmi and FPGAArcade boards at the same time.
If I had the cash, I might have got both. But I think you're right. The folk here it seems see the FPGAArcade as the "AGA minimig", but it's more than that, with cores for many classic machines on the way. So it has a market much wider than the NatAmi. I'm sure down the road, many of those advanced chipset features of the NatAmi could be implemented in the minimig core for the Replay.
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I'm sure down the road, many of those advanced chipset features of the NatAmi could be implemented in the minimig core for the Replay.
It was my understanding (could be wrong) that the FPGA on the FPGA Arcade wasn't as big as the one on the Natami.
I didn't think there would be enough gates to fit what Natami was trying to do???
desiv
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Amiga is dead, Long Live Amiga!
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It was my understanding (could be wrong) that the FPGA on the FPGA Arcade wasn't as big as the one on the Natami.
I didn't think there would be enough gates to fit what Natami was trying to do???
desiv
I'm not sure about that either. I believe Natami uses the Altera FPGA and FPGAarcade uses Xlinx Spartan 3. Not that that makes a whole lot of difference, just makes it harder for amateurs like me to relate the sizes of these things. ;-) Minimig itself has been ported to a couple of Altera boards, might be possible to go the other way.
Probably over in that 100 plus page thread, someone asked how much of the FPGA is used by the minimig AGA core.
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It was my understanding (could be wrong) that the FPGA on the FPGA Arcade wasn't as big as the one on the Natami.
I didn't think there would be enough gates to fit what Natami was trying to do???
The bigger problem with porting the NatAmi code from the Altera Cyclone IV to the Xilinx Spartan 3 is that it can't mix with the MiniMig core at all. MiniMig is GPL code while NatAmi is closed-source. Also, MiniMig is programmed in VHDL I think, and the NatAmi chipset is coded as AHDL which only works on Altera FPGAs. Porting from Altera to Xilinx is possible but requires conscious effort to fix the code conversion problems from the converter.
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The bigger problem with porting the NatAmi code from the Altera Cyclone IV to the Xilinx Spartan 3 is that it can't mix with the MiniMig core at all. MiniMig is GPL code while NatAmi is closed-source. Also, MiniMig is programmed in VHDL I think, and the NatAmi chipset is coded as AHDL which only works on Altera FPGAs. Porting from Altera to Xilinx is possible but requires conscious effort to fix the code conversion problems from the converter.
Hi samurai crow.Is it just thomas working on natami now.Are the rest of the team involved anymore?Will the natami forum be closed?
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Whoever was working on the natami ever it was thomas all the time. The rest of the team was actually working on their own either related or accompanying projects as it looks like. I mean even i was invited but honestly have refused as i knew i couldnt seriously contribute.
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Whoever was working on the natami ever it was thomas all the time. The rest of the team was actually working on their own either related or accompanying projects as it looks like. I mean even i was invited but honestly have refused as i knew i couldnt seriously contribute.
I see so thomas was largely working alone all along in terms of hardware at least.Thomas might actually get the natami finished in private a bit quicker fingers crossed.
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It can (could, should, will, might?). It has an A500 keyboard connector on board.
Then I'll be looking at getting one. The A500 can't last forever :-(
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I see so thomas was largely working alone all along in terms of hardware at least.Thomas might actually get the natami finished in private a bit quicker fingers crossed.
Yes, it's been quite frustrating for a lot of the people who joined up to help because they joined up thinking they would be allowed to progress the SAGA and maybe even the design if they were able. Instead it's gone on logos and some simple test programs.
What it meant is that the 3D Core that was talked about a lot got a lot of unnecessary attention, but it only got hat because it was the only part that anyone else could do anything with!!! Never even seen the code (AHDL) for the rest of the system. Then the soft 68k came along and that got a lot of attention for the same reason.
In truth it's quite simple, Thomas announced the project because he'd been working on it for a while already when Dennis announced the MiniMig, then Jens started talking about Clone-A and so Thomas decided it was time he spoke up about his project. Like I say though, no-one has ever gotten to work on either the hardware or the AHDL (fpga) designs, we've always been kept at arms length.
It's quite frustrating and not at all what I expected when I joined up to help out with the 3D stuff. I rarely even post there anymore :(
Andy
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The Natami project is started since a very long time now and the progress is very slow : are you sure that Thomas (or the whole Team) don't have ennemies who block you ?
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Yes, it's been quite frustrating for a lot of the people who joined up to help because they joined up thinking they would be allowed to progress the SAGA and maybe even the design if they were able. Instead it's gone on logos and some simple test programs.
What it meant is that the 3D Core that was talked about a lot got a lot of unnecessary attention, but it only got hat because it was the only part that anyone else could do anything with!!! Never even seen the code (AHDL) for the rest of the system. Then the soft 68k came along and that got a lot of attention for the same reason.
In truth it's quite simple, Thomas announced the project because he'd been working on it for a while already when Dennis announced the MiniMig, then Jens started talking about Clone-A and so Thomas decided it was time he spoke up about his project. Like I say though, no-one has ever gotten to work on either the hardware or the AHDL (fpga) designs, we've always been kept at arms length.
It's quite frustrating and not at all what I expected when I joined up to help out with the 3D stuff. I rarely even post there anymore :(
Andy
Please, what is the current status of 3D Core and SAGA? Is there still a lot of work?
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@vxm
3DCore was shelved some time ago, there's a design, Gunnar even has an existing CPLD/FPGA version he did some time ago that could be used - but it's not the focus for Natami.
SAGA - I'm not personally sure, but the OCS/ECS/AGA implementation was looking good and already a lot faster in some ways than the original thanks to memory access, faster bus etc. It just needs a lot of tweaking. There's also the lesser discussed audio improvements but again I can't tell.
What is real is that there are several revision of the Natami boards with a real 68060 out there in peoples hands. 7 at the last count, who were trying to implement drivers for the network, usb, etc components. All essential stuff that needs doing to make it live upto it's promises.
Everyone, especially here sadly, goes on about the FPGA core and how the rest of the team is useless or unhelpful etc, but those things won't write themselves and the volunteers doing things are doing the best with what access they're given.
Andy
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The Natami project is started since a very long time now and the progress is very slow : are you sure that Thomas (or the whole Team) don't have ennemies who block you ?
No, it's just that it's slow and difficult for one man to do, and it is all one man (Thomas) who also has a real life and a new job lately.
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This project is certainly one that I am most interested in. If we are looking at a €500 to €700 price range then best start saving. Because once my bambino is born I won't have much miggy money to play with.
(My child will be shown what a true computer is too. I will start them with a C64 and then on to Amiga. Obviously once it hits like 1 year old I will start its journy. lol)
Hi,
Really hate to disappoint, but you can give your child a C64 or Amiga to show them what a good computer really is, but in true life, you are better off giving them a PC no matter how hard it hurts, it is the computer used by business's today and that is all there is to it.
Remember Microsoft has created billions of jobs out in the world for people trying to keep their sorry a$$ software running. If Amiga would have invested in it, billions of people would be working in the sewers, well maybe they still are, they are working for microsoft.
smerf
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Well, first things first. We need full AGA and 68K compatibility, and the board can be sold. Later, we can get updates for 3D cores, SAGA and enything else really. It's FPGA after all.
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it is a waste time as all the PPC based systems are. It is a fun thing and some would have liked to use it. Hobby, perhaps nostalgic to a certain degree. If we all would be "rational" we all would not be here :-).
Hi,
Give this man the sane trophy for today. Best words of wisdom said today.
smerf
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After years and years of teases,updates, changes, still no release date. I don't think it will ever happen. I was interested in this, until I realized I could simply remove windows shell and boot straight to os3.x with winuae.
That 3ghz pc cost me 30$ on ebay. And its here right now.
WOW!!!
A very close competitor to the words of wisdom for today, but $30 on ebay makes you a loser. Buying old obsolete computers, put you behind in the runnings to Olaf.
Sorry
smerf
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Do you have any imagination whatsoever when it comes to computers? :flak:
Hi,
@Kesa,
Imagination from a computers stand point is illogical.
If it looks archaic, acts archaic, and runs arcahic then it must be archaic.
Natami, does not compute
smerf
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I agree WinUAE is just an application, an incredible one, but not a physical product like Natami or Minimig so comparison is unfair.
There is nothing wrong with Natami except the price IMO. However you would need to invest something like $1,000,000 to do an FPGA Amiga from scratch to full mass production run as a product to get it well below the magic $100 price barrier. However would you quickly sell 50,000-100,000 units even then to recoup your initial investment from your first batch?
Maybe you might sell more if the machine could connect to something like Apple App store/XBLA/PSN Network style service to buy legally authorised copies of games to use on said machine for a similar price to MP3s on iTunes?
Cost of investment vs potential maximum sales is the issue.
HMMM!!!
Lets see, winuae running on a new Intel, with a new GPU graphics card, with sound chips that are the leading edge that can be used in recording studios are not physical enough, OK whatever you say, I really enjoy playing Megaball on winuae on my 2 year old 6 core computer, with a 6770 graphics card.
Some people just cannot accept the fact that old is old until they get old and cannot do a darn thing about it.
smerf
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I think old people are ****, and should be shipped to some island.
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I guess I had inferred that from your statement that Natami is a "waste of time" because it seemed like the obvious course of argument for why something that's a hobby project to scratch the itch of a handful of individuals in a hobbyist community is totally stupid and unjustified in existing, but if I was mistaken, please feel free to enlighten me on what your actual reasoning was.
Hi,
Cloanto's Amiga Forever, very cheap to buy, runs like an Amiga on Steroids, and hardware is very cheap to find.
Makes a lot of sense to me.
Besides it has lots of storage options.
Doesn't care if it is Pal or NTSC, 68000 or 68060, it just examines program, finds best emulation for running it and loads it up, simple for simple minded people like me.
and to top it off,
plays CD32 games, all on the same machine.
DUH!!!
smerf
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Offcourse they are just emulators, as they only mimik (emulate) the chips behaviour as seen from the outside. They might get closer to the orginal then UAE, but thats only due to the efford involved not to the method used.
A real reimplementation would be opening the chips and transfering them to the FPGA gate by gate.
A Minimig might have more emotinal value for you, but the underlying principle is still the same as with UAE.
HI,
Sorry OlafS3,
but you are now in 2nd place for words of wisdom for today.
Kronos, has just taken first place for the most sane person on Amiga.org.
smerf
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I think old people are ****, and should be shipped to some island.
LOL!!!
smerf
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No one told me Natami is an emulator. I thought it was real. Good thing I have an A1200 then. Paying a fortune for an emulator my seem a put off for me.
Hi,
Natami, is a very good replacement for old silicon that will eventually wear out and quit working after, in the case of the Amiga hardware, a hundred and fifty years (if you keep the batteries changed).
smerf
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Hi,
Natami, is a very good replacement for old silicon that will eventually wear out and quit working after, in the case of the Amiga hardware, a hundred and fifty years (if you keep the batteries changed).
smerf
Only I will not live for a 150 years. When the time comes and I know i am reaching a stage where I am too old but not too old enough to enjoy my money I will sell the A1200. When I am dead someone else is going to take over the hardware.
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Hi Mike. First, I am not an official spokesman for the Apollo project. Gunnar has talked about releasing the Apollo core source to specific customers under a strict license (and for a hefty fee).
Does the Apollo project have licenses for all the patents it's going to be using?
Building an open source CPU is one thing, selling it is something else altogether. If they make any money they can expect to be contacted by lawyers demanding money.
OTOH this is probably the least of their worries...
The Apollo core will have some go fast features that will take a lot of work to duplicate like pipelining, Superscaler, instruction combining, new powerful instructions and addressing modes, sophisticated instruction and data caches (including snooping), loop optimizations, branch cache and prediction, etc.
It usually takes big teams of experienced engineers years to build something like this. I don't ever like to say never but I'm going to break that tradition by saying I predict the Apollo project will never finish a design of this complexity.
Even if they could do it - what possible reason is there for anyone to pay for it?
This thing is going to require a big, hot and expensive FPGA. All so you run stuff slower than a $1 ARM.
It's interesting as a technical project I'm sure, but the rest strikes me as wishful thinking.
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No one told me Natami is an emulator. I thought it was real. Good thing I have an A1200 then. Paying a fortune for an emulator my seem a put off for me.
It's not an emulator in any normal sense of that word.
A traditional emulator runs 68K code by converting it into e.g. x86 code and running it on the CPU. The hardware doesn't exist so it also has to be recreated as software and executed on the CPU. The conversion takes time as you'd imagine so emulators that work like this tend to be slow.
In the case of Natami (or Minimig or FPGA arcade) the original 68K and custom chips have been recreated as a "description". This description configures the FPGA to act as the 68K and custom chips. When you run you amiga app the FPGA hardware is doing the same job as the Amiga hardware. The FPGA executes the 68K instructions - there is no software conversion involved.
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As long as it's done by the time I retire, I'll be happy.
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@vxm
3DCore was shelved some time ago, there's a design, Gunnar even has an existing CPLD/FPGA version he did some time ago that could be used - but it's not the focus for Natami.
SAGA - I'm not personally sure, but the OCS/ECS/AGA implementation was looking good and already a lot faster in some ways than the original thanks to memory access, faster bus etc. It just needs a lot of tweaking. There's also the lesser discussed audio improvements but again I can't tell.
What is real is that there are several revision of the Natami boards with a real 68060 out there in peoples hands. 7 at the last count, who were trying to implement drivers for the network, usb, etc components. All essential stuff that needs doing to make it live upto it's promises.
Everyone, especially here sadly, goes on about the FPGA core and how the rest of the team is useless or unhelpful etc, but those things won't write themselves and the volunteers doing things are doing the best with what access they're given.
Andy
This is a structured project, which must be done with logic. Support new capabilities requires writing drivers. It is better to have a fully functional computer.
Thank you for the answer.
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I guess I had inferred that
Wouldn't be the first time you assumed a bunch off garbage and started foaming at the mouth.
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Really hate to disappoint, but you can give your child a C64 or Amiga to show them what a good computer really is, but in true life, you are better off giving them a PC no matter how hard it hurts, it is the computer used by business's today and that is all there is to it.
Who gives a good ******* about preparing children for the business world? The chief joy of childhood is not having to worry about all that crap. Or do you think the purpose of toys is to prepare for work?
Cloanto's Amiga Forever, very cheap to buy, runs like an Amiga on Steroids, and hardware is very cheap to find.
Makes a lot of sense to me.
Well that's lovely for you then. But the existence of an alternative solution to a different (if related) problem does not somehow invalidate the desire for a new Amiga in hardware.
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Wouldn't be the first time you assumed a bunch off garbage and started foaming at the mouth.
That's very nice. Would you care to enlighten me on what your line of thinking actually was? I'm all ears.
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haha this thread rules.
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It's not an emulator in any normal sense of that word.
Really?
em·u·late
[v. em-yuh-leyt; adj. em-yuh-lit] Show IPA verb, em·u·lat·ed, em·u·lat·ing, adjective
verb (used with object) 1. to try to equal or excel (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/excel); imitate with effort to equal or surpass: to emulate one's father as a concert violinist.
2. to rival with some degree of success: Some smaller cities now emulate the major capitals in their cultural offerings.
3. Computers . a. to imitate (a particular computer system) by using a software system, often including a microprogram or another computer that enables it to do the same work, run the same programs, etc., as the first.
b. to replace (software) with hardware to perform the same task.
----------------------------
The only argument might be whether or not the programming in an FPGA is a software system.
As I said before, it's semantics, but I think "any normal sense" is seriously stretching it...
As the technology is (IMHO) changing faster than the definitions, I think some freedom in interpreting them should be allowed.
It used to be much simpler before FPGAs. But now with programming FPGAs, you make them behave like other chips. Which sounds a LOT like what emulation is.
Maybe what we have now is similar to programming languages, a separation between interpreted emulation and compiled emulation.. ;-)
From a purely technical definition, it might not be an emulator.
But from the generic definition of the word, I think it still fits..
Even EETimes considers FPGAs a type of emulator.
http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4081462/Viewpoint-Standard-FPGA-based-emulation-will-prevail
So even among the serious techs, it's not as clear cut as it used to be.
desiv
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Does the Apollo project have licenses for all the patents it's going to be using?
Building an open source CPU is one thing, selling it is something else altogether. If they make any money they can expect to be contacted by lawyers demanding money.
OTOH this is probably the least of their worries...
"It is only a nice story when Gunnar tells that we had a conversation with the ColdFire/M68k Division Manager of freescale. That we asked him if a custom made MC68060 with higher speed than the classic ones could be available. When he declined we got on asking if we could at least get/license some source HDL code to use in an FPGA. He told us that the MC68060 is built in some kind of HDL source. He regrets but it is absolutely not possible to get/see/license this code for anybody in any form. The only thing he could do is to provide us contacts to companies who sell 68k IP cores. Freescale itself doesn't do this, it is not their business. Then Gunnar asked him what might happen if we wrote our own IP. He said that Freescale will not have a problem with that and that, in his opinion, we do not need any permission from Freescale even if we are about to sell it. But we can not expect any technical help or support from Freescale when we decide to do so.
This is just a story which happened some time ago. We do not need prove or evidence of that. This only (sadly) shows that this is the end of the road for the 68k. The business of this division of Freescale is to sell competitive embedded ColdFire chips, not software. These chips *must* not compete with faster PowerPC which is a different division at Freescale. As said, in the real world they would only sue us for money, not for fun. It would be money if we decide to sell 68k compatible chips running at 600MHz at a price of 1,5$ per piece. Then the discussion here might be justified. But it is not because we won't because we can't.
I just wonder why AMD is still selling x86 compatible CPUs. Ah, right, I forgot. They use a completely different opcode than intel.
Meaning that it might be worth continuing this discussion. Since we AND Freescale are not really involved because both do not have a problem with this topic I would emphasize to discuss whether an opcode is copyrightable or patentable in talk, not as an NatAmi question. For now Freescale does not have any interest in high-speed 68k. The moment this changes we are the first to get a 2GHz 68k dual core and just drop the softcore '50 (sorry Gunnar/Jens) and get the chip mounted onto a SyncZorro card. But immediately." -Thomas Hirsch
It usually takes big teams of experienced engineers years to build something like this. I don't ever like to say never but I'm going to break that tradition by saying I predict the Apollo project will never finish a design of this complexity.
Gunnar and Jens are "experienced engineers" that work for IBM as their day jobs. Most of the programming of the pipelined superscaler integer CPU, caches and memory controller is done. A FPU and simple SIMD unit are probable at some point. It can always be updated as it's fpga. It's not that far beyond the core used in the fpgaArcade which already performs better than many of the fpga cores on the market.
Even if they could do it - what possible reason is there for anyone to pay for it?
This thing is going to require a big, hot and expensive FPGA. All so you run stuff slower than a $1 ARM.
It's interesting as a technical project I'm sure, but the rest strikes me as wishful thinking.
A large fpga does not run hot. The main disadvantage of the fpga over a real "chip" is speed, and limited shifting and multiplying ability. The advantages of the fpga are cheaper in low quantities and the ability to customize and update what's in them. Some fpga customers find the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. It's simplest and cheapest to put everything in 1 fpga with their custom logic. Some customers may go ASIC later and want a full featured CPU while others want the minimal CPU for the smallest possible fpga, memory and price. The 68k/Apollo has the advantage of being easy to program (many embedded systems do not use an OS) and very good code density (better than ARM with Thumb 2). ARM also relies on shifting a lot (improves code density) so is not well suited for an fpga. The 68k/Apollo relies on sign extending (for code density improvement) which is easier for an fpga. The Apollo core has outperformed the NIOS and PowerPC 440 in most of IBM's tests. IBM could burn or use their own processor "chips" but even they have a use for fpga processors.
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I just wonder why AMD is still selling x86 compatible CPUs. Ah, right, I forgot. They use a completely different opcode than intel.
Or maybe because they had a licence to do so....
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Natami is a monumental waste of time. Nerd trophy at best, monument to the square wheel at worst.
Time enjoyed being wasted is not time wasted.
Maybe Thomas was not enjoying his Natami time any longer due to the pressures from everyone else.
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That lets me out. That kind of pricing will severely limit their sales potential across the board.
OK, but Mikes board which is multi emul. machine, but as Amiga is 020 28Mhz and ordinary AGA is 350 euros. Minimig which is up to 28Mhz 68 000 is nearly 200 euros with ARM or more.
In the terms of competition, Natami seems to be right priced.
If you expected high end classic to be less, just check how much are hardware 060 50Mhz boards for Classics.
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neither wanna put these efforts down or praise them, cold facts only, all the best to the makers... but.. last week got an ivy bridge 3770K +asus mb + 16mb + 120gb OCZ and case etc... for £600... other then what I kinda need for work/hobby.. UAE with my custom 3.9 install sky-rockets on this setup :/
Tom UK
ps: after my half-hearted idea last year... i really need to think about selling my A hardware.... any early takers ? see sig
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neither wanna put these efforts down or praise them, cold facts only, all the best to the makers... but.. last week got an ivy bridge 3770K +asus mb + 16mb + 120gb OCZ and case etc... for £600... other then what I kinda need for work/hobby.. UAE with my custom 3.9 install sky-rockets on this setup :/
Tom UK
ps: after my half-hearted idea last year... i really need to think about selling my A hardware.... any early takers ? see sig
You are quite aware no one can`t compare to cheap x86 hardware made in huge quantities in China? And you do know, this time next year it will be 300 euros worth and year after about 100.
UAE with custom OS 3.9 would skyrock on much less e.g. my AMD 2Ghz and 2GB fast RAM.
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UAE flies on my MacPro and I'm running it on Windows 7 Virtual Machine in Fusion.
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read about the downsizing slowing of the natami project ..guess shouldnt be surprized ..but still disappointed ..
anyway while checkin ebay i came across a very old card for a pc that turns it into a 3DO ..always wanted a 3DO but not at $811.00 usa dollars
made me think why isnt someone turning there attension to a similiar
card for amiga ...i know there was a project at some time but it never got
finished ...whatever new amiga in whatever form we buy it will still need
drives monitors etc ...just a thought...opinions?