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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: walterg74 on April 15, 2012, 12:33:12 AM
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Hi guys, new on the forum, played with Amiga as a kid but never had one at that time. Took advantage of a trip to europe to get me some last month, and got 2 600s, one 1200 and a 500+ (over compensating? :) )
So anyway, i had/have a weird problem with one of the 600s.... I didn't have time to test it on the trip as it was short, so back home I hooked up everything and it wouldn't boot up correctly. Power LEDs went on, but the screen would either stay black (with video signal) or sometimes white. Seller said it was working before.
So anyway, a few days passed, I was about to list it on our local ebay as not working, and I tried hooking it up again, but after disassembling it and checking for any loose stuff, dirt, whatever (which I did not find). So after that, the condition changed, and now I would only get a fixed purple screen (not knowing if that was better or worse...).
So the thing is that I just left it like that and had to go do something else, and when I came back I saw that the classic "insert disk" screen had appeared! :huh:
So now I'm like WTF???? Now if I power it down, I get the purple screen, and after waiting a variable amount of time (sometimes several seconds, sometimes much longer) the boot screen will appear...
Do any of you experienced/veteran folks know what on earth could be causing this behaviour??
Also, and this might be general, the disk drive does not work, and just goes back to the boot screen after inserting a disk. The seller did tell me that, and provided an external drive. However, inserting games in this external drive, none work :( Is this normal for booting games? (from the external drive). Because if I put a workbench disk in it then it DOES load fine, so the drive is working...
Thanks for your input!!!
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Have you tried pressing down on all your chips etc.....some may have loosened in transit.
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Wow, that was quick.. ha!
Yes I tried, but the 600 only has the rom socketed, the others are directly soldered...
This particular one also had an expansion (being workbench read ~800k without and ~1800k with, I assume it's a 1MB expansion to take the machine to 2MB? Consists of 4 sims -256kb each?).
Tried both with it, and removing the expansion card, same results.
I might transfer this expansion over to my second 600 which seems to work flawlessly.
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If you switch the 600 on is the boot time before the kickstart screen about 30 seconds? If, so it's most likely that the internal floppy drive is faulty causing the delay. Try re-attaching the floppy cable at both ends.
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If you switch the 600 on is the boot time before the kickstart screen about 30 seconds? If, so it's most likely that the internal floppy drive is faulty causing the delay. Try re-attaching the floppy cable at both ends.
Hmmm.. I'd have to double check as I think sometimes it takes longer, but then again it could just be my anxiety for it to work... I will have to wait until next weekend though, as I am currently again on a trip for work (in Zurich now).
If I had thought it before I could have bought a replacement drive and have it shipped here, eh? Does the store known here ship express? (if its worth it and not that expensive).
Edit: Re-reading your post, if it is the faulty drive, what woud re-attaching the cable accomplish? (I think I already did that anyway -though maybe not BOTH ends- when I disassembled the computer to look for corruption/whatever on the motherboard). I mean, if it's faulty wouldn't it just keep causing the same delay? (also I don't know what exactly the fault is, since it does take and reocnize a disk is inserted).
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Yes, it does look like a floppy drive problem or HD problem. If the A600 has a Hard Drive, remove it and see if you get instant Floppy insert screen.
If you dont have HD, then try to re-seat the floppy drive cables, and maybe replace the drive with the one from A500 and see it that fixes the problem.
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As a test, plug one of the internal floppy's from your other 600 or even your 1200 in and see if corrects it. Just going from experience here, but I wouldn't be surprised. Also, bet this will bug you until next weekend ;)
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Yes, it does look like a floppy drive problem or HD problem. If the A600 has a Hard Drive, remove it and see if you get instant Floppy insert screen.
If you dont have HD, then try to re-seat the floppy drive cables, and maybe replace the drive with the one from A500 and see it that fixes the problem.
Nope, no HD. Would disconnecting the floppy remove the delay (if that was the cause) or would be exactly the same as the comp cant contact the floppy?
Side comment: san antonio? I have to go visit... i've been sent for work 5 times to the US, to Houston, and I always say "this trip I'll go see san antonio" :)
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No floppy in amiga = delay. Same thing when the drive is faulty
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As a test, plug one of the internal floppy's from your other 600 or even your 1200 in and see if corrects it. Just going from experience here, but I wouldn't be surprised. Also, bet this will bug you until next weekend ;)
Ha! Of course it will bug me... That's why I'm here up writing about this at almost 2 am :insane:
What was that store, amigakit or something? Is that based of europe or the us?
So since all you guys are around... Here's another question I don't get...
Where I live, most of our tvs have 3 standards built in:
PAL-N (a weird variation used in my country and I think two others)
PAL-M (another weird variation used in Brazil and I think one or two others)
NTSC-M
So naturally, I knew these being UK machines, that they would not be compatible as-is. I currently solved it before leaving on my trip, by simply buying from someone on our ebay a tv from europe. Problem solved!
Still I have the following doubt... When I connect other european computers (spectrum, atari st, segas, etc) to my tv (my "normal" tv, not the recently acquired european one) the image of course is black and white and sound distorted.
However, when I hook up the amiga 600s or the 1200, through their builtin composite connectors, the image is in color... So wtf??? I though the only way you "lose" pal/ntsc/whatever info was with RGB? So how can the image be in color on these?
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Nope, no HD. Would disconnecting the floppy remove the delay (if that was the cause) or would be exactly the same as the comp cant contact the floppy?
Side comment: san antonio? I have to go visit... i've been sent for work 5 times to the US, to Houston, and I always say "this trip I'll go see san antonio" :)
Its like 3hr drive from Houston to San Antonio.
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Its like 3hr drive from Houston to San Antonio.
Yep.. That was alway the plan... Just cruising west on 10.... ;)
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spectrum, atari st, segas, etc
erm, they don't have a composite output though. So how are you connecting them?
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erm, they don't have a composite output though. So how are you connecting them?
Well RF of course... ;)
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The RF signals won't work correctly to NTSC AFAIK. The Amiga's will on composite because it doesn't rely on video standards. Composite is composite.
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If u are in an ntsc screenmode is the composite out still in black and white?
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The RF signals won't work correctly to NTSC AFAIK. The Amiga's will on composite because it doesn't rely on video standards. Composite is composite.
Thats what I thought too except its not? Every site I looked says of course ntsc/pal information/signal IS contained in composite connections as well ( otherwise for example dvd players would work worldwide and it's not the case).
Trying to find one example (beside my practical experience) where a pal system would be seen in color on an ntsc system (also look at all the posts here from people with amigas that appear in b&w on their US tvs?) :huh:
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If u are in an ntsc screenmode is the composite out still in black and white?
First I don't know how to check that, but also the comp gives me no option to actually "select" an ntsc screen mode (even when booting with the mouse buttons held I get no screen/video options). Also, connected on composite (the amigas) i never get a black and white signal, it's in color butnit puzzles me because they're supposed to be PAL computers.
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Both mouse buttons to change ntsc-pal is a feature of 3.0 plus Roms only. U get colour because u use á euro monitor..
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Thats what I thought too except its not? Every site I looked says of course ntsc/pal information/signal IS contained in composite connections as well ( otherwise for example dvd players would work worldwide and it's not the case).
Trying to find one example (beside my practical experience) where a pal system would be seen in color on an ntsc system (also look at all the posts here from people with amigas that appear in b&w on their US tvs?) :huh:
Composite is the carrier format. The video information that is "composed" (combined) into the signal can be any standard video format PAL or NTSC or SECAM but not all of them.
BTW Hi and welcome back to the Amiga...
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Both mouse buttons to change ntsc-pal is a feature of 3.0 plus Roms only. U get colour because u use á euro monitor..
Ehmm... no, I'm not using a euro monitor. Even though I recently bought a euro tv, that's not the one I'm connecting the computers to. I am connecting to a TV that is NTSC-M/PAL-M/PAL-N ( not to confuse these PAL with the european nes, they are different).
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Composite is the carrier format. The video information that is "composed" (combined) into the signal can be any standard video format PAL or NTSC or SECAM but not all of them.
BTW Hi and welcome back to the Amiga...
Hi gertsy, thanks for the welcome!
Yes, that is what I have been finding, that PAL/NTSC/etc still exists and is encoded in the composite signal (and of course if must have *some* type of encoding for the tv/monitor to understand it :) ) hence my surprise when I saw the amigas in color (or course it's a pleasant surprise right? I mean I rather have this than for them to be in B&W of course, but I'm trying to inderstand why and what is going on exactly under the hood).
Regarding the amiga yes I am back but I think I have a lot of reading to do... After all as a kid! All we cared about was popping the game disk in and playing! We didn't even care about workbenches, rom versions, kickstarts, and all that nonesense... :)
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The good news is a purple screen usually means the Amiga has passed all the Power on Self Tests (POST). As the guys have pointed out somthing on your 600 is making it think it needs to wait for the floppy to boot(My interpretation). So it could be a faulty floppy as mentioned. Best thing to do is try it with a known working floppy drive.
Worst case it could be a dodgy CIA or Gayle Chip. But try the floppy drive and cable first as they are the most likely candidates.
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The good news is a purple screen usually means the Amiga has passed all the Power on Self Tests (POST). As the guys have pointed out somthing on your 600 is making it think it needs to wait for the floppy to boot(My interpretation). So it could be a faulty floppy as mentioned. Best thing to do is try it with a known working floppy drive.
Worst case it could be a dodgy CIA or Gayle Chip. But try the floppy drive and cable first as they are the most likely candidates.
Yes, I will try that as soon as I get back (currently in Zurich). I will open up my other 600 and try hooking up it's floppy that works fine. (i also want to swap the keyboards, since the one with the faulty floppy is whiter and the other has more yellowing).
I also bought on my previous trip 2 cf cards+adapters loaded with whdload. Are there games that are incompatible with this system? If so, any good solution for creating real floppies from images I can download?
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Yes, I will try that as soon as I get back (currently in Zurich). I will open up my other 600 and try hooking up it's floppy that works fine. (i also want to swap the keyboards, since the one with the faulty floppy is whiter and the other has more yellowing).
I also bought on my previous trip 2 cf cards+adapters loaded with whdload. Are there games that are incompatible with this system? If so, any good solution for creating real floppies from images I can download?
As long as the A600s are HD versions (IE Have the HD Header) Were there some without Hard Disks? Not sure as I'm not an A600 guy. I think there was also a minimum ROM version for the HD to work properly on the A600. Do some searches to find out more. I have CF cards in both my A1200 and A4000 and they work beautifully. A silent A1200 is superb as a A600 will be.
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As long as the A600s are HD versions (IE Have the HD Header) Were there some without Hard Disks? Not sure as I'm not an A600 guy. I think there was also a minimum ROM version for the HD to work properly on the A600. Do some searches to find out more. I have CF cards in both my A1200 and A4000 and they work beautifully. A silent A1200 is superb as a A600 will be.
As far I know the HD version was just a 600 with the hdd already inside. The rom version is true, but acordong to the listing I have the minimum needed one (I think it was 37.33 or something like that, dont remember off the top of my head). So should be good to go and have fun :)
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I've seen A600s which develop a problem where they won't boot up after being switched on, but if left for 5-30 minutes they will eventually boot. It's caused by bad capacitors, which nearly all A1200s, A600s and CD32s suffer from these days.
Try turning them on and just leaving them for half an hour, see if anything changes. I'd advise you to change all the capacitors as soon as possible if it seems to be the same problem I've encountered before.
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As far I know the HD version was just a 600 with the hdd already inside. The rom version is true, but acordong to the listing I have the minimum needed one (I think it was 37.33 or something like that, dont remember off the top of my head). So should be good to go and have fun :)
For A600 hard drive support (scsi.device in ROM) you need Kickstart 37.300 or above.
There is supposed to be a harddrive size limit (bug) with 37.300 though, so 37.350 is recommended. 37.350 is normally expensive though, I suspect getting a Kickstart 3.1 chip would be cheaper (and easier) to obtain.
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For A600 hard drive support (scsi.device in ROM) you need Kickstart 37.300 or above.
There is supposed to be a harddrive size limit (bug) with 37.300 though, so 37.350 is recommended. 37.350 is normally expensive though, I suspect getting a Kickstart 3.1 chip would be cheaper (and easier) to obtain.
Yes, don't remember the number right now but I do know it had the minimum needed to support those CF solutions being sold that are loaded with whdload.
So would you all prefer to upgrade all your Amigas, or keep them original?
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I've seen A600s which develop a problem where they won't boot up after being switched on, but if left for 5-30 minutes they will eventually boot. It's caused by bad capacitors, which nearly all A1200s, A600s and CD32s suffer from these days.
Try turning them on and just leaving them for half an hour, see if anything changes. I'd advise you to change all the capacitors as soon as possible if it seems to be the same problem I've encountered before.
What do you mean with turning "them" on? I only have one computer with this issue. While the time it takes is variable, it's not nearly that long I believe.
In any case, I just bought a replacement drive for the 600 (since it was faulty anyway) and when I get back home next sunday I'll see if that fixes the issue...
So the capacitors go bad even without any sign of leakage?
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So would you all prefer to upgrade all your Amigas, or keep them original?
Personally I prefer to keep my A600 as a Kickstart 2 machine with a real hard drive as opposed to CF. But, there's no doubt you'll be needing a 1MB trapdoor expansion upgrade to take the chipram to 2MB because if you don't do this you'll not have enough memory to do anything useful from Workbench.
However, Kickstart 3.1/Workbench 3.1 eats a lot less ram, so would be better suited for an A600 with a hard drive.
My A1200 is a different story, and the A1200 with it's AGA to me is a machine worth upgrading. Not sure if there is anyone who actually uses a stock 1200 though. I think all the stock 1200's are in peoples lofts or garages, unused. The machines getting use are probably all upgraded, with a hard drive and fast ram/accelerator card in the trapdoor.
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Hi There New here as well. I have a A600 wich is doing me exactly that, Black screen but when i wait long enough, it starts kickstart.
I have tried with flopy or with out it its the same. i tought it was the end but i swap the kick rom from a dead 500 ( kick 1.3 ) at for some reason worked right away the 1º st time, but then the same. than i realise that if i wait it will eventualy boot up. does any one have fix this issue ? is it some faulty parts ? Tks in advance
last night you Ppl Saved me :)
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Personally I prefer to keep my A600 as a Kickstart 2 machine with a real hard drive as opposed to CF. But, there's no doubt you'll be needing a 1MB trapdoor expansion upgrade to take the chipram to 2MB because if you don't do this you'll not have enough memory to do anything useful from Workbench.
However, Kickstart 3.1/Workbench 3.1 eats a lot less ram, so would be better suited for an A600 with a hard drive.
My A1200 is a different story, and the A1200 with it's AGA to me is a machine worth upgrading. Not sure if there is anyone who actually uses a stock 1200 though. I think all the stock 1200's are in peoples lofts or garages, unused. The machines getting use are probably all upgraded, with a hard drive and fast ram/accelerator card in the trapdoor.
So what exactly would the advantage be of having a "real" hddinstead of a CF based one besides space...? I take it if you don't need that much space, CF is more silent, less prone to mechanical errors (no moving parts!) and still seen as an hdd.. So what's so good about a reald hdd?
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It fits in the original bracket and looks the way it did in 1993. Thats about all. BTW you forgot to mention it also uses more power and heats up your mainboard more.
4 GB SANDISK ULTRA(not a copy) rools.
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It fits in the original bracket and looks the way it did in 1993. Thats about all. BTW you forgot to mention it also uses more power and heats up your mainboard more.
4 GB SANDISK ULTRA(not a copy) rools.
It "looks the way it did in 1993"..? What, you have x-ray vision to see the insides when using it? :laugh1:
more power and heat is the hdd I assume you meant, right...?
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So what exactly would the advantage be of having a "real" hddinstead of a CF based one besides space...? I take it if you don't need that much space, CF is more silent, less prone to mechanical errors (no moving parts!) and still seen as an hdd.. So what's so good about a reald hdd?
I never said there was an "advantage", I was just stating my personal preference that's all. I like to hear it "whirr up", I like to hear when it's accessing, I don't mind the slight heat and slight noise and extra power consumption. Amigas aren't battery powered so I don't see why that should be important.
If you want one real advantage of hard disks, then data security springs to mind.
Let's say you had to back up gigabytes or terabytes of family photo's. If it was me, I'd have them on 3 hard disks (3 duplicates).
I would never back them up to dvd's or cd's as they only last 10-20 years, sometimes a lot less.
I wouldn't back them up on flash devices either, because they only retain their data for 10-20 years (according to specs) and no one even knows in reality how long this will really be yet. And I'm talking about copying the data to flash device, and then leaving it for 20 years (not using it every day...).
Take music for instance. In 100 years time, will there be any compact discs around that are still functioning? It's very doubtful.
Will there be any vinyl records around that are still functioning? Yes. Guaranteed, even the one's manufactured during the 1950's will still be alive and well, as crisp and beautiful as the day they were pressed.
Will your hard drive still work if left for 100 years with those photo's you backed up? Possibly yes, much higher chance than with any flash device or cd/dvd rom.
My point is, just because a new technology comes along, it doesn't necessarily mean it's better in every single way.
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Does it matter much about longevity? New media types are introduced every decade or so, and data transferrde to them. Harddrives can also die without notice, and I dont think I care too much about what happens to my data when Im dead :)
For me the biggest advantage of CF over hdd though is the fact you can use larger capacity than a harddrive without needing additional power. My 32gig CF card (Patriot) works fine off the internal ide connector without needing to butcher the a1200 to provide extra power. Using a traditional 2.5 inch ide drive youre restricted to between 6 and 8 gig or thereabouts unles you want to provide it with extra power.
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I never said there was an "advantage", I was just stating my personal preference that's all. I like to hear it "whirr up", I like to hear when it's accessing, I don't mind the slight heat and slight noise and extra power consumption. Amigas aren't battery powered so I don't see why that should be important.
If you want one real advantage of hard disks, then data security springs to mind.
Let's say you had to back up gigabytes or terabytes of family photo's. If it was me, I'd have them on 3 hard disks (3 duplicates).
I would never back them up to dvd's or cd's as they only last 10-20 years, sometimes a lot less.
I wouldn't back them up on flash devices either, because they only retain their data for 10-20 years (according to specs) and no one even knows in reality how long this will really be yet. And I'm talking about copying the data to flash device, and then leaving it for 20 years (not using it every day...).
Take music for instance. In 100 years time, will there be any compact discs around that are still functioning? It's very doubtful.
Will there be any vinyl records around that are still functioning? Yes. Guaranteed, even the one's manufactured during the 1950's will still be alive and well, as crisp and beautiful as the day they were pressed.
Will your hard drive still work if left for 100 years with those photo's you backed up? Possibly yes, much higher chance than with any flash device or cd/dvd rom.
My point is, just because a new technology comes along, it doesn't necessarily mean it's better in every single way.
I could be wrong, but i believe the failure rate of hard drives is much higher than that for many different factors.... Don't know many that lasted more than 10 years, and definitely not 100.. :)
Vynilrecords? Think about the scratches you hear, and imagine if thise were digital data bits... :banana:
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For me the biggest advantage of CF over hdd though is the fact you can use larger capacity than a harddrive without needing additional power. My 32gig CF card (Patriot) works fine off the internal ide connector without needing to butcher the a1200 to provide extra power. Using a traditional 2.5 inch ide drive youre restricted to between 6 and 8 gig or thereabouts unles you want to provide it with extra power.
Nonsense. I use a 40Gig 2.5" HD in my A1200 + Apollo1260 + IndiVisionAGA +
IdeFix-Express, without "butchering" my A1200. The whole system gets power
from an original A500 4.5A power brick, without any problems!
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...BTW you forgot to mention it also uses more power and heats up your mainboard more.
4 GB SANDISK ULTRA(not a copy) rools.
A little bit more power is not an issue. The 2.5" HD gets not overheated like a 68040 CPU. It just reaches a normal warm temperature. And it certainly isn't heating-up the motherboard!
And Sandisk Ultra does NOT rule. I've got a genuine 4GB Sandisk Ultra CF which reaches a speed
of 4.1MB p/s on my 1260 system. The Toshiba 40GB 2.5" HD reaches 5.2MB p/s!!!
(I also tested various other CF's and HD's, and the result was always in favour of the 2.5" HD's.)
So if it's about speed, the 2.5" HD's are the real winners! :banana:
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A little bit more power is not an issue. The 2.5" HD gets not overheated like a 68040 CPU. It just reaches a normal warm temperature. And it certainly isn't heating-up the motherboard!
And Sandisk Ultra does NOT rule. I've got a genuine 4GB Sandisk Ultra CF which reaches a speed
of 4.1MB p/s on my 1260 system. The Toshiba 40GB 2.5" HD reaches 5.2MB p/s!!!
(I also tested various other CF's and HD's, and the result was always in favour of the 2.5" HD's.)
So if it's about speed, the 2.5" HD's are the real winners! :banana:
HOw did you get those numbers? What filesystem? What ide device? What driver? Etc etc
tia
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HOw did you get those numbers? What filesystem? What ide device? What driver? Etc etc
tia
Read ALL the posts next time! ;) Like I mentioned before:
"I use a 40Gig 2.5" HD in my A1200 + Apollo1260 + IndiVisionAGA + IdeFix-Express."
Oh, and just plain ol' FFS Int DirCache (except one backup partition; that's PFS3).
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Read ALL the posts next time! ;) Like I mentioned before:
"I use a 40Gig 2.5" HD in my A1200 + Apollo1260 + IndiVisionAGA + IdeFix-Express."
Oh, and just plain ol' FFS Int DirCache (except one backup partition; that's PFS3).
Yeah, I guess it depends on what you want to use the machine for in the end... I just want it for gaming, and for that, the setup is overkill... My 4GB CF card is way more than enough...
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I know, but someone stated that CF rules... Guess not! :p
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Perhaps I was a bit vague. From all my experiences, and Ive seen others mention it too you need to hijack some power from the floppy power connector to power larger drives. Id be surprised to hear that youre not doing that. There's even an article in amiga shopper about it.
Your speed for "normal" 2.5 inch ide vs cf card speeds are contradictory to most other peoples as well, especially concerning seek times.
This isnt to say youre spinning porkies, just that its not really a black/white thing.
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Perhaps I was a bit vague. From all my experiences, and Ive seen others mention it too you need to hijack some power from the floppy power connector to power larger drives. Id be surprised to hear that youre not doing that.
?! Never heard of that. Which others? Can you provide a link? I've got several A600/A1200's, and some of them have CF cards and others have 2.5" HD's. Now, I use 2.5" HD's from 2GB to 40GB and never had to "hijack" power from the floppy connector. The HD gets it from the 44-pins IDE interface. And I always use a A500 4.5A power-supply. No hacking/butchering is needed.
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Your speed for "normal" 2.5 inch ide vs cf card speeds are contradictory to most other peoples as well, especially concerning seek times.
This isnt to say youre spinning porkies, just that its not really a black/white thing.
There's nothing contradictory about it. I've tested everything the right way, and it's a
well known fact that 2.5" HD's are faster then CF cards. There're a lot of articles about it over the internet, just google it.
Just keep sticking to your cf-card. I know better... :rtfm:
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Older, smaller ide drives are somewhat slower than new CF cards. And what makes you think that Ive not also tested this stuff as well? In fact Id never used a cf cards until about a month ago so Im pretty well versed in using 2.5 inch ide drives in an a1200.
Another thing to consider is that an a1200 isnt going to get full speed anyway, so seek times become important.
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Older, smaller ide drives are somewhat slower than new CF cards. And what makes you think that Ive not also tested this stuff as well? In fact Id never used a cf cards until about a month ago so Im pretty well versed in using 2.5 inch ide drives in an a1200.
Another thing to consider is that an a1200 isnt going to get full speed anyway, so seek times become important.
Who's talking about "old" ide drives? I never mentioned that. OK, If you use an old 30mb Conner HD from 20 years ago... yeah that'll slow things down a lot.
I'm talking about modern 2.5" 2GB> HD drives. I tested a large number of CF cards and never found one that's faster then a modern 2GB+ HD. Especially the 20GB+ drives are real fast like I stated before.
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I know, but someone stated that CF rules... Guess not! :p
Again, it depends on your needs... I get ALL the games I want, for ~40, no need to hunt down hdds, or worry about anything else, silent, etc. For me it TOTALLY rules... :uzi:
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Again, it depends on your needs... I get ALL the games I want, for ~40, no need to hunt down hdds, or worry about anything else, silent, etc. For me it TOTALLY rules... :uzi:
Great! Have fun!
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@Amidude
Who's talking about older drives you ask? Well you clearly are while talking about 20 and 40gig drives.
Huff and puff and claim to know whatever you like, the simple fact is its not as black and white is youre trying to claim.
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@Amidude
Who's talking about older drives you ask? Well you clearly are while talking about 20 and 40gig drives.
Duh... Compared to the 30MB->500MB HD's from the early 90's, the 40GB drives are "newer" and of course also a lot faster.
Huff and puff and claim to know whatever you like, the simple fact is its not as black and white is youre trying to claim.
I can indeed claim things about CF's and 2.5" HD's because I'm into it for many years now.
And it's not black & white. It's a fact. You're clearly not an expert on the subject as you stated earlier in this thread;
"In fact Id never used a cf cards until about a month ago so Im pretty well versed in using 2.5 inch ide drives in an a1200."
:roflmao: :hammer: :laughing:
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Um, care to point out where I claimed to be an expert? What I said is Im well versed in using 2.5 inch ide drives seeing as Id not until recently used anything but 2.5 inch ide drives. My 32gig CF card is significantly faster than the 120gig ide drive I used some time back. Until recently I'd not experienced anything but ide drives on an amiga, which makes the difference stand out. Simple fact of the matter is that a newer, decent CF card will be faster on an amiga. If youve not seen that for yourself then I can only imagine youve tried crappy CF vs decent ide cards/drives.
You also keep avoiding the fact that an amiga isnt going to to get anything near the potential of either, and given the CF's significantly faster seek times this makes quite a difference.
You also dont seem to understand the definition of "black and white".
As I said though, keep huffing and puffing, it's no skin off my nose. Your know-it-all attitude just further embarasses you to anyone but yourself it seems. If youre happy about that then I wish you well.
Also, care to point out where I said a 20/40-ish gig drive isnt newer than an old 500-ish meg (or whatever) drive? I said nothing of the sort, you just added that in yourself, and then said "duh" about it. You do realise its not quite normal to say "duh" about something youre the only one talking about arent you? The sorts of drives you speak about are old, theyve not been made for years. Is that difficult to understand without twisting and contorting words to fit your arguement?
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fishy_fiz wrote:
Um, care to point out where I claimed to be an expert?
It was sarcasm. You're obviously not an expert.
My 32gig CF card is significantly faster than the 120gig ide drive I used some time back.... Simple fact of the matter is that a newer, decent CF card will be faster on an amiga. If youve not seen that for yourself then I can only imagine youve tried crappy CF vs decent ide cards/drives.
I can't hardly believe that. You're just talking b*sh*t. Have you proof of that?
Besides that, I've tested descent original CF's like Transcend en Sandisk, and they
all where slower then the 2.5' HD's.
Also, care to point out where I said a 20/40-ish gig drive isnt newer than an old 500-ish meg (or whatever) drive? I said nothing of the sort, you just added that in yourself, and then said "duh" about it. You do realise its not quite normal to say "duh" about something youre the only one talking about arent you? The sorts of drives you speak about are old, theyve not been made for years. Is that difficult to understand without twisting and contorting words to fit your arguement?
You're the one that was talking about "older" drives earlier in this thread. I was just explaining that there is a difference in the old 30mb> 500mb HD's, and the newer 20GB+ drives, because you talked about "older" drives, remember?! Duh!
Don't turn things around in your favor!
As I said though, keep huffing and puffing, it's no skin off my nose. Your know-it-all attitude just further embarasses you to anyone but yourself it seems.
Look whos talking! You're the one that started this "I know best" attitude.
So, stop whining about it, and get a grip on yourself!
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Youre not the brightest spark are you?
I spoke about older drives, yes. Older 20-40gig drives. Anyone with an iota of intellect can see that clear as day. I never for a second mentioned speed of drives that are even older again than the old 20-40gig drives. You did that, and then said "duh" to it. Lol, and then you did it again after admitting you'd bought the older drives into it.
Who's whining? Im simply disagreeing, much as you are.
You started this nonsense, its all here for anyone to see. Me and Gert offered valid opinions, you came in and started acting all high and mighty. Try to twist and contort all you like, the thread content doesnt change because of it.
Anyway, Ive said my part, there's no point repeating things. I have no interest in arguing with some random yahoo who's so adamant about things that contain lots of shades of grey.
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Listen dude... I'm not take you serious anymore. Anyone can see that you're
full of b*llsh*t! You're making a complete a*s out of yourself. Speaking about
"not the brightest spark", you meant yourself, right? Don't make me laugh!
So, fishy_fiz, I suggest to move on. It's starting to smell a little fishy
around here...
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Little bit defensive there huh?
Yeah, tends to happen when people back themselves into a corner.
Let it go bloke, I have no more interest in arguing with you than I would any other intellectually challenged person.
Little bit baffling though that youre able to grasp the concept of more recent ide drives usually= faster, but unable to grasp the same concept of other mediums. Quoting brand names is far from the be all/end all in regards to quality/speed of a storage medium. Larger, more recent CF cards are much faster than older smaller cards.
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Are you still whining about it? So, you bought a CF card and you're so happy about it that you defend it at al costs, without any proof that it's actual faster than an 2.5" HD. Childish person, get over it and go on with your pathetic life!
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(http://www.thelas.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/someone-on-the-internet-is-wrong2.jpg)
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@Amidude
Still defensive huh? As I sid it tends to happen when people talk crap and back themselves into a corner. Seriously, dont worry about it, it's no big deal.
As for proof,... err, Ive offered just as much proof as you (ie. nothing but our personal experiences). Give me proof and I might return the favor, although as I keep saying, and you seem unable to grasp, or selectively ignore it's not a black/white thing. There's plenty of variables.
Little bit unusual though that you keep avoiding responses to the fact that an amiga isnt going to get full speed out of either a CF card or harddrive, nor do you respond to the fact seek times make a difference when speed is relatively low (as is the case for both cf and ide on a 68k amiga). Also amusing seeing you get aggressive when I bring up something you cant respond to. Sometimes things a person doesnt say will say more than words can.
Simpe fact of the matter is we've both over reacted.
Oh, and thanks for referring to my life as pathetic. Not an over-reaction about a disagreement at all (yes, this is sarcasm). Quite hilarious, and hugely hypocritical to call someone childish followed by that sort of garbage.
Let it go bloke and I will. We're not the only ones who use this site.
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fishy_fish wrote:
Ive seen others mention it too you need to hijack some power from the floppy power connector to power larger drives
Who's talking crap here?! I didn't know that they let mental cases onto this forum.
And CF's seek times are not faster than that of an 2.5" HD. 2.5" HD's are faster. Period.
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Some newer, larger 2.5 inch ide drives require more power than the ide cable can provide. It's not exactly rocket science, or a secret.
As for the suggestion that seek times are faster on an ide drive I can only respond with:
Hahahahaha
Are you a good bowler?
What's your take on the pentatonic scale? Over used?
Why would someone watch a movie with invisible actors?
Did you know Rambo took 3 years of classical Jazz?
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Some newer, larger 2.5 inch ide drives require more power than the ide cable can provide. It's not exactly rocket science, or a secret.
I never encountered such a drive. That said, I've only tested drives up to 40GB and they never needed power from the floppy drive.
As for the suggestion that seek times are faster on an ide drive I can only respond with:
Hahahahaha
Are you a good bowler?
What's your take on the pentatonic scale? Over used?
Why would someone watch a movie with invisible actors?
Did you know Rambo took 3 years of classical Jazz?
You're all blah, blah. This proves that you're an mental case.
You have to do your homework better, dude!
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That's right. Three years.
Part of the reason there was such a large gap between sequels.
My amp goes to 11.
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I wish you well with your illness...
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Fuzzy Wuzzy was indeed a woman. Gene Wilder wasnt lying.
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Did you forget to take your medicine?
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I have 17 feet of cheese. Eighty five toes, although 3 of them have ingrown nails.
Hopefully you've grasped the idea Im not taking you seriously by now. I tried saying straight out that I have no interest in argueing with you, but you seemed to struggle with that idea. I even offered an olive branch and reminded you that there's other people that use the site, but you persisted.
Any more comments aimed at me from you, unless reasonable will be responded to as they deserve (ie.this same sort of nonsensical gibberish).
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Oh boy, he completely lost it now.:insane: Hush hush, everything is gonna be all right.
Time for you to go to bed now.
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Ive lost it because I have no interest in continuing this line of conversation with you? That's an, err,... lets say, "interesting" perspective.
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I'm not continuing a intelectual conversation with you, because it leads to nothing.
Been there, done that.
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Well, heck's whistles. What am I going to read for entertainment, then?
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This whole thing is ridiculous.
We've both got different experiences and opinions and they dont match, so freaking what? Most people can agree to disagree. We argued for a while, these things happen.
My qualm is with the fact you cant seem to let it go.
Despite the fact you keep dismissing anything I offer because of a lack of "proof" we've both offered similar "proof" (ie., nothing but sharing our respective experiences). The difference being however that you persisted as I stopped taking it anything resembling serious.
And no, thus far it appears you cant have an "intelectual conversation". It seems your take on that is to say that youre right over and over, offering no proof and burying your head in the sand to any facts if they dont match your experiences. As I keep saying its not a black or white topic.
The only absolutes here are:
A. A classic amiga wont push either an ide or a cf card to anything near its potential (apart from old ide drives)
B. seek times *are* much better with a CF card. I challenge you to find *any* reference that says otherwise and share it.
Just curious, what speed CF cards have you used? Theyve come quite a way in recent times. My 32gig CF card is roughly %30 faster than my 120gig ide drive (with 8meg cache) both using pfs.
This is my last attempt at diplomacy, either continue to carry on like a pork chop, or try your hand at behaving like an adult, your choice.
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My qualm is with the fact you cant seem to let it go.
You can't let it go neither, do you? You're just a bad loser!
This is my last attempt at diplomacy, either continue to carry on like a pork chop, or try your hand at behaving like an adult, your choice.
Said the childish person...
And for the rest of your b*lsh*t: Stop repeating yourself! You made an a*s of yourself allready.
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Being a bad loser would require having lost. I havent.
Cant say Im surprised to see you responding this way though. When a person cant prove themselves, or if theyve been disproved and dont want to admit it they tend to behave this way. I tried my hand at diplomacy and extended an olive branch a few times, you showed everyone that youre not simply *acting* like a pork chop.
Cant show me any reference to your claims then I guess? If you was as confident as youre pretending you'd jump at the chance to prove me wrong, but instead took the aggressive response option.
As for my claims, take your pick of options from this page:
http://www.google.com.au/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&safe=off&site=&source=hp&q=ide+vs+cf+seek+times&oq=ide+vs+cf+seek+times&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_nf=1&gs_l=hp.3...1844.5250.0.5453.20.11.0.0.0.0.1047.3203.3-1j6-2j1.4.0.3BtFXlBiR00&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=ccf7218a2aefdb07
You obviously have nothing to contribute other than the whole head-in-the-sand/repeat-something-without-offering-anything-to-back-it-up/ignore-facts type input youve offered so far, so I think I'll go back to responding to anything you write with nonsensical gibberish.
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fishy_fiz wrote:
Cant say Im surprised to see you responding this way though. When a person cant prove themselves, or if theyve been disproved and dont want to admit it they tend to behave this way. I tried my hand at diplomacy and extended an olive branch a few times, you showed everyone that youre not simply *acting* like a pork chop.
People who can't prove themselves also trie to "prove" they're right by reacting just like you do; A lot of empty words.
Your link proves nothing. They're all impressions from individuals. I want you to show me hard evidence. C'mon, do your homework better next time.
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Well, heck's whistles. What am I going to read for entertainment, then?
Tone007 is right. We have to continue this argument for entertainment sake. :biglaugh:
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Yes, hundreds of links from hundreds of individuals. Not one of them supporting your claims and all supporting mine. Versus your offering *nothing* at all but words. Doesnt take a rocket scientist to see who's claims are emptier.
Flash RAM has next to zero seek time, its pretty common knowledge.
If/when you have something of any substance at all to offer I'll respond, but until then you'll have to resort to arguing with yourself. There's absolutely no point in continuing this arguement as things stand.
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Yes, hundreds of links from hundreds of individuals. Not one of them supporting your claims and all supporting mine.
That's because you're looking in the wrong places.
Flash RAM has next to zero seek time, its pretty common knowledge.
That's fine for the Flash-RAM. But overall speed of the 2.5" HD is faster. That's a wel known fact.
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OK, read this link (there's more to come):
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/29795-20-hard-drive-compact-flash
This is about experiences from individual users.
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Seven year old link. Irrelevant. CF cards are orders of magnitudes times faster today.
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Why dont you two provide REAL WORLD TESTS WITH YOUR REAL WORLD AMIGAS AND DRIVES. instead of blowing hot air around and insulting each other?
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I'm at risk of being on-topic here, but....
When an a600 doesn't start up for an unusually long time (more than a minute or so, maybe more than an hour), it's time to change your capacitors: that's the usual cause.
If anyone wants me to do this, by the way, PM me. I'm thinking of adding this to my shop's services.
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Why dont you two provide REAL WORLD TESTS WITH YOUR REAL WORLD AMIGAS AND DRIVES. instead of blowing hot air around and insulting each other?
If you had read the whole thread, you could see that I allready provided information
about my 2.5" HD vs CF card tests:
Amidude wrote:And Sandisk Ultra does NOT rule. I've got a genuine 4GB Sandisk Ultra CF which reaches a speed of 4.1MB p/s on my 1260 system. The Toshiba 40GB 2.5" HD reaches 5.2MB p/s!!!
(I also tested various other CF's and HD's, and the result was always in favour of the 2.5" HD's.)
Keep in mind that these high results were reached with an IdeFix-adapter and a 80Mhz 060 CPU. I alse tested CF's and HD's with my A600/030/42Mhz. Never were the CF's faster than the HD's. And I'm talking about 2GB+ drives.
It can well be that in modern PC's CF's are faster, but certainly not in the Amiga world.
I'm not buying that.
I've experience with both CF and HD's for many years. It's fishy_fiz that didn't do proper testing. He bought a CF card just one month ago...
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I'm at risk of being on-topic here, but....
You're right, whe're way off-topic. We should open a different thread about this.
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Perhaps I was a bit vague. From all my experiences, and Ive seen others mention it too you need to hijack some power from the floppy power connector to power larger drives.
Your choice of the words butcher and hijack are the problem. For a 3.5" drive you need to get power from the floppy connector, however you can get a splitter cable that just plugs in to the motherboard, floppy drive and hard drive. No butchery to the motherboard is required.
You also need to get a 44->40 pin adapter, or use a idefix adapter which usually has a 44 pin socket on.
Compact flash doesn't need to spin up, so is available quicker and doesn't make any noise. It also seeks faster. The transfer rate on hard drives is higher. On a 68000 based Amiga using PIO, it's unlikely to make any difference at all.
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Compact flash doesn't need to spin up, so is available quicker and doesn't make any noise. It also seeks faster. The transfer rate on hard drives is higher. On a 68000 based Amiga using PIO, it's unlikely to make any difference at all.
That's what I'm talking about. It's the Read/Write speeds that makes the overall usage of HD's faster. It's also confirmed by different benchmark programs. The "noise" of an 2.5" HD is hardly noticeable.
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That's what I'm talking about. It's the Read/Write speeds that makes the overall usage of HD's faster. It's also confirmed by different benchmark programs. The "noise" of an 2.5" HD is hardly noticeable.
You're using IDEFIX!
2.1MB / Sec is about the max you'll get out of the standard A1200 IDE. And yes IMO "all round" CF Cards rool.
If you're still around WalterG74 and havent been scared off, a vanilla A600 is probably gonna be less than half the IDE speed of an A1200 probably around 700-800KB / Sec I guess..
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That's what I'm talking about. It's the Read/Write speeds that makes the overall usage of HD's faster. It's also confirmed by different benchmark programs. The "noise" of an 2.5" HD is hardly noticeable.
I don't want to get involved in any arguments, but I suspect that due to faster seek times on CF drives then they would be faster when used on a heavily fragmented partition, whereas a hard drive would suffer more in this situation due to lower seek times. Of course, large hard disks or ones that have been defragged and optimised will perform just fine.
Amiga's don't really have problems with fragmentation, at least not on the grand scale as Windows does (just speaking from my own experience here).
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You're using IDEFIX!
2.1MB / Sec is about the max you'll get out of the standard A1200 IDE.
If you had read all posts, then you've had noticed that I also did tests WITHOUT IDE-Fix!
Besides that, both HD and CF had benefit from the faster IDE-Fix adapter. So, it doesn't make any difference.
And 2.1MB isn't the max I get out of the standard A1200 IDE port. My other A1200 with Blizzard1230IV (WITHOUT IDE-Fix) and 2GB HD reaches a speed of 2.8MB p/s. Heck, even my A600/030 with 1GB HD reaches 2,6MB p/s!
I think it all comes down on what type/brand HD/CF and (important) CPU you use.
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I don't want to get involved in any arguments, but I suspect that due to faster seek times on CF drives then they would be faster when used on a heavily fragmented partition, whereas a hard drive would suffer more in this situation due to lower seek times. Of course, large hard disks or ones that have been defragged and optimised will perform just fine.
Amiga's don't really have problems with fragmentation, at least not on the grand scale as Windows does (just speaking from my own experience here).
That's true. Well spoken.
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You're using IDEFIX!
2.1MB / Sec is about the max you'll get out of the standard A1200 IDE. And yes IMO "all round" CF Cards rool.
If you're still around WalterG74 and havent been scared off, a vanilla A600 is probably gonna be less than half the IDE speed of an A1200 probably around 700-800KB / Sec I guess..
Just last week I did a test using sysinfo and got a raw read of 2665871 bytes/sec (2.54MB/sec) on my A1200 with Apollo 1240/40. This is the standard IDE port with just an 80GB Hitachi 2.5" HDD attached.
So it is capable of more than 2.1MB/sec.
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If you're still around WalterG74 and havent been scared off, a vanilla A600 is probably gonna be less than half the IDE speed of an A1200 probably around 700-800KB / Sec I guess..
That would depend heavily on the presence or absence of fast ram.
Just tested this on my vanilla 600 (no fast ram, again...using sysinfo)
702171 bytes/sec 685KB/sec.
I wish I could just order a fast ram expansion from amigakit that slots on the motherboard...it would help the A600 so much. Surely they would be easier to produce by Jens than a full blown accelerator card (which isn't available anymore anyway).
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Of course, large hard disks or ones that have been defragged and optimised will perform just fine.
Sure, if you are only ever sequentially reading through one big file.
Being perfectly defragmented doesn't help if you are reading a lot of small files all over the drive.
If you have a compact flash that reads at 133MB a second then no Amiga can get close to that transfer rate. Writes are another matter though.
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Sure, if you are only ever sequentially reading through one big file.
Being perfectly defragmented doesn't help if you are reading a lot of small files all over the drive.
Yes, true. Amiga software generally doesn't have a million small files to be read though, it normally makes do with just a few or sometimes even just one file. MUI programs use the most I suppose, but they don't use that many in reality.
I'm not for or against CF. At the beginning of this thread I just said I liked real hard drives because of the sounds they make, I'm nostalgic....
Then it turned into this huge argument (which I didn't participate in).
As far as I'm concerned people should use what they are happy with. Classic Amiga's are slow by comparison anyway, so this whole discussion is hardly relevant at all.
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well.. lot of time has passed but I'm finally back from Europe!
So yeah, brought back my spare floppy drive, replaced the one in the 600 and it boots up almost instantly (normally in a word), so seems that was the issue after all!
Also managed to bring back a CD32 to add to my collection :)