Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: jorkany on March 05, 2012, 02:45:02 PM
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Just wondering what people think about this:
http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=908#p11316
I would'nt recommond installing a second gfx card, as there are no spare slots.
You would have to loose either sound or network.
Besides, would rather the systems are not messed with. As this could cause damage or other problems.
The system is sent as a complete system.
I guess since none of the onboard hardware is supported there has to be a card for everything. Kind of weird for a system that comes in a huge case with 8 drives bays, but there it is. Also, no tinkering - I thought part of the "Amiga spirit" was tinkering, but then again this is an AmigaOne. I dunno, for $3K just doesn't seem like that great a deal.
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VERY weird.
However, I doubt OS4 supports dual graphic cards.
In fact, I'd be surprised if it even supported dual monitors on one HD4650.
Hopefully, in the future, onboard hardware drivers will eliminate the need to use so many cards.
>I thought part of the "Amiga spirit" was tinkering
tinkering? Hell, I like to completely tear things apart and rebuild them however I want!
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Given the amount of people who are constantly waiting for Hyperion to do anything wrong so they can kick up a fuss, can you blame them for covering themselves like this?
Just about any computer company would say the same thing - "please don't fiddle with our systems, but if you do you're on your own".
I think they didn't say anything unusual for a company.
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VERY weird.
However, I doubt OS4 supports dual graphic cards.
In fact, I'd be surprised if it even supported dual monitors on one HD4650.
Both P96 (OS4) and CGX (MorphOS) support mutible (different) GFX-cards well since Zorro-time. None supports spanning (1 screen over 2 monitors) or the 2nd VGA/DVI of any GFX-card.
Another issue is OpenFirmware/UBoot/whatever as those will normally only init 1 card while the P96/CGX drivers for the PCI/AGP-cards might expect them to be initialized.
Successfully tested and an AGP-Radeon9000 + Voodoo3-PCI (normal PC version, but doesn't matter as CGX will take that card "raw") in my QuickSilver under MorphOS2.7.
Similar options should exist for OS4.
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@Jorkany
First Contact wasn't supposed to be complete in terms devices being supported by OS4. It was done to get boards out to people keen to get systems out to people who were prepared to accept that not everything would be working straight away.
This isn't something that was hidden from the customer so why make such a fuss, especially when you aren't a customer.
VERY weird.
However, I doubt OS4 supports dual graphic cards.
In fact, I'd be surprised if it even supported dual monitors on one HD4650.
Hopefully, in the future, onboard hardware drivers will eliminate the need to use so many cards.
>I thought part of the "Amiga spirit" was tinkering
tinkering? Hell, I like to completely tear things apart and rebuild them however I want!
OS4 supports multiple video cards. I have a Radeon 9250 and an X1550 in my XE and there is no problem with running different apps on both cards at the same time. You can do same with a classic Amiga under OS3. A card with dual outputs can only currently display the same image
Chris is advising caution because he doesn't want inexperienced users causing warranty issues. Most competent users will just change what they like anyway. Changing the heatsink and fan will void the warranty but I think anything else is just advice.
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Both P96 (OS4) and CGX (MorphOS) support mutible (different) GFX-cards well since Zorro-time. None supports spanning (1 screen over 2 monitors) or the 2nd VGA/DVI of any GFX-card.
Another issue is OpenFirmware/UBoot/whatever as those will normally only init 1 card while the P96/CGX drivers for the PCI/AGP-cards might expect them to be initialized.
Successfully tested and an AGP-Radeon9000 + Voodoo3-PCI (normal PC version, but doesn't matter as CGX will take that card "raw") in my QuickSilver under MorphOS2.7.
Similar options should exist for OS4.
Thanks Kronos,
I may just have to try that tonight on my Powermac. I've got a Voodoo3 2000 PCI card sitting around (I use it in my PC to re-flash PC video cards with Mac compatible bios').
So, if it physically works, OS4 should support it (and it hardly surprises me that MorphOS does).
But why doesn't the second port of a graphics card work?
Under other OS' it just requires a second driver.
Edit - Hey Kronos,
Has anyone gotten a Voodoo 4500 PCI card to work with another display card under MorphOS?
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I guess since none of the onboard hardware is supported there has to be a card for everything.
That's why it's called BETATESTER/EarlyBird/FirstEncounters version. Onboard components does not yet have full support.
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seems each x1k will have to be sent to tha manufacturer to remove the obsolete pci cards as soon as onboard components are supported. i wonder if that is covered by service/warranty?
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VERY weird.
However, I doubt OS4 supports dual graphic cards.
In fact, I'd be surprised if it even supported dual monitors on one HD4650.
Hopefully, in the future, onboard hardware drivers will eliminate the need to use so many cards.
Dual graphics cards do work. I used dual graphics cards to do the initial graphics driver development. The old Radeon card was used for coding, and the Radeon X1000/Radeon HD card was used for testing new builds. That stopped when the RadeonHD driver reached the point at which it was usable.
>I thought part of the "Amiga spirit" was tinkering
tinkering? Hell, I like to completely tear things apart and rebuild them however I want!
... and when has "please don't mess with the hardware" ever stopped people from doing just that? In fact, "you will void the warranty" doesn't really stop people either, does it?
Hans
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But why doesn't the second port of a graphics card work?
Under other OS' it just requires a second driver.
The Radeon HD driver will quite happily output the same screen on all connected outputs. However, Picasso96 (and Cybergraphics too) isn't designed to support multiple outputs. In theory you could create a second (fake) driver in order to support it, but you would probably also have to partition the VRAM into two separate sections, one for each driver. Actually, Bernie Meyer (of Amithlon fame) did demonstrate having 5 monitors connected to one machine via two cards. He never did explain how he got the driver to do it. I have no plans to try something similar with the Radeon HD driver.
Hans
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Another issue is OpenFirmware/UBoot/whatever as those will normally only init 1 card while the P96/CGX drivers for the PCI/AGP-cards might expect them to be initialized.
UBoot and CFE (OpenFirmware used on the A1-X1000) initialise all cards, including extra graphics cards. Sure, it will only actually use one graphics card, but they are all initialised and ready for the OS drivers.
Hans
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Just wondering what people think about this:
http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=908#p11316
I guess since none of the onboard hardware is supported there has to be a card for everything. Kind of weird for a system that comes in a huge case with 8 drives bays, but there it is. Also, no tinkering - I thought part of the "Amiga spirit" was tinkering, but then again this is an AmigaOne. I dunno, for $3K just doesn't seem like that great a deal.
You are overreacting. Having X1000 presale (First Encouters) with OS 4.1.5 has to have some glitches like RadeonHD driver with no 3D (same is with SAM 460 owners). On SAM 460 also PCI slots are valuable and on X1000 First Encouters, yes they are populated.
X1000 final edition in software terms - one to be shipped with OS 4.2 will solve both problems by bringing 3D RadeonHD driver (9250 is snail to any HD Radeon) and drivers for onboard sound and SATA2
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Given the amount of people who are constantly waiting for Hyperion to do anything wrong so they can kick up a fuss, can you blame them for covering themselves like this?
Just about any computer company would say the same thing - "please don't fiddle with our systems, but if you do you're on your own".
I think they didn't say anything unusual for a company.
Don`t see why so much controversy. If owner is willing to open the case (and loose the guaranty like everywhere), remove Radeon HD and one PCI card and put Radeon 9250 it will work. But he has been properly warned.
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@vox: (re)configuring your hardware means a loss of warranty? must have been lucky since ive ever been able to return unsatisfactory components..
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If owner is willing to open the case (and loose the guaranty like everywhere)
I've never heard of opening the computer case to terminate a warranty. In fact, even swapping the cards don't terminate it. All these operations are regular maintenance and expected events in the lifetime of a computer. Of course if you botch up and break something, fixing that won't be under warranty.
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Thanks Hans,
Nice insight.
I was actually pretty impressed at how quickly the HD driver progressed.
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I've never heard of opening the computer case to terminate a warranty. In fact, even swapping the cards don't terminate it. All these operations are regular maintenance and expected events in the lifetime of a computer. Of course if you botch up and break something, fixing that won't be under warranty.
In fact there are cases of this. Our brand new in house Quantum Computer's warranty is voided if the case is opened or even if you breath too hard on the case. We have to be very very gentle with her.
:)
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@transition:
figures. perhaps thats why a customer shouldnt swap gfx cards within a x1k. the machine could disappear back into a fictive alternate reality.
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I've never heard of opening the computer case to terminate a warranty. In fact, even swapping the cards don't terminate it. All these operations are regular maintenance and expected events in the lifetime of a computer. Of course if you botch up and break something, fixing that won't be under warranty.
Sorry, buy I've seen many cases of this where the manufacturers even place holographic stickers on the computers to detect if the case has been opened.
I guess the theory is that while it is under their warranty they don't want you messing with it, but once it has run out then feel free to bugger it up to your heart's content.
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Sorry, buy I've seen many cases of this where the manufacturers even place holographic stickers on the computers to detect if the case has been opened.
I guess the theory is that while it is under their warranty they don't want you messing with it, but once it has run out then feel free to bugger it up to your heart's content.
Which explains why I have never bought a pre-assembled computer even though I've been using computers since the 70's.
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@darrin:
do i guess right, that these manufacturers you are talking about, usually supply the customer with setups that are not fully supported in therms of drivers until the warranty expires? its self explanatory, the customer must not modify the setup to gain better functionality in this case, other than on his own risk.
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Sorry, buy I've seen many cases of this where the manufacturers even place holographic stickers on the computers to detect if the case has been opened.
I guess the theory is that while it is under their warranty they don't want you messing with it, but once it has run out then feel free to bugger it up to your heart's content.
It's much easier to prove/disprove if something broke due to a manufacturing defect if users keep their mits out of the case.
Hans
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@darrin:
do i guess right, that these manufacturers you are talking about, usually supply the customer with setups that are not fully supported in therms of drivers until the warranty expires? its self explanatory, the customer must not modify the setup to gain better functionality in this case, other than on his own risk.
This is irrelevant, as the customers were fully informed on what they were buying, and what functionality would arrive later. If someone opens up their computer and damages it in the process, then that damage falls outside the warranty. This is a risk that is worth reminding people of. While I have never damaged a computer while swapping hardware or connecting it, I have seen plenty of reports of people who have.**
Hans
** In the most extreme case, I remember reading complaints from a guy who managed to rip a chip socket off a motherboard. Needless to say, the warranty didn't cover that!
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@hans:
It's much easier to prove/disprove if something broke due to a manufacturing defect if users keep their mits out of the case.
who knows. i wasnt able to fry much hardware due to own fault. well. i have damaged a perfectly working a1200 board dropping a screwdriver on it and causing a short but it was twenty years ago and thats about all i can think of. i usually dont even close my pc case and testing aros68k now im swapping the hardware in my a4000s almost hot since at least about a year.
but then, given the whole amount of hardware trouble the users have with their a1s and sams its probably really better to keep the customers at the safe distance. admittedly its very difficult to thell who is at fault here.
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This is irrelevant, as the customers were fully informed on what they were buying
that really tells us something about the crowd, right?
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J.. Also, no tinkering - I thought part of the "Amiga spirit" was tinkering, but then again this is an AmigaOne. I dunno, for $3K just doesn't seem like that great a deal.
ah good ol jorkany always so interested in everything related to new hardware and software related to AmigaOS4.x;)
Once sound and ethernet drivers are available for Nemo then 2 slots are open....I've got my catweasel and TV card ready and waiting :)
thank you for ALWAYS contributing to every single AmigaOS4.x related thread and starting this one:rolleyes:
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@klx300r
ah btw hows timberwolf doing? is it under daily usage already on your os4 setup? ive heard its much better than the previous alpha.. i mean we, sitting on the fence, always keep our eyes on that stuff.
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@klx300r
ah btw hows timberwolf doing? is it under daily usage already on your os4 setup? ive heard its much better than the previous alpha.. i mean we, sitting on the fence, always keep our eyes on that stuff.
OOO..That was just mean.
Besides, they've still got OWB (even if they had to get one of our developers to update it for them).
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@iggy
remember owb is alien and not "amiga" native software. or have you not heard that one before?
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@iggy
remember owb is alien and not "amiga" native software. or have you not heard that one before?
Yeah, far too often and with similar sentiments from the MOS community.
Its not "native", it relies on something we don't have (Java et al), its too big, there isn't anyone willing to commit time to it, and that last big one...we need to start a bounty.
Argh! Time to brush up on the coding skills a just do it myself.
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OOO..That was just mean.
Besides, they've still got OWB (even if they had to get one of our developers to update it for them).
mean? how so? The Timberwolf update is a definite improvement and loads lightening fast, alot of Add Ons work great and youtube vidoes work albeit slowly but it's still in Alpha and yes I use it everyday. Fab, kas1e and Denil did a great job on mui-owb and I have no idea why anyone would call it 'alien' as it works just great .
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Sorry, buy I've seen many cases of this where the manufacturers even place holographic stickers on the computers to detect if the case has been opened.
They can put those stickers where ever they want to but opening the case wont void the warranty.
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Please differ between the mandatory material defect liability of the seller and the and the optional (and often extended) warranty provided by the manufacturer (when it comes to end-consumers).
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They can put those stickers where ever they want to but opening the case wont void the warranty.
So were the warranty seals on my A500 and A1200 not legally binding?
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I've never heard of opening the computer case to terminate a warranty. In fact, even swapping the cards don't terminate it. All these operations are regular maintenance and expected events in the lifetime of a computer. Of course if you botch up and break something, fixing that won't be under warranty.
Pretty common stuff really, when I supported Gateway PC's they had a sticker over the edge of the case to stop you from gaining entry "void warranty" liked that stopped anyone.
PCD (local brand) machines same thing, also just take a look at the bottom of the A500/A1200 etc... (thats if the sticker is still there) it's been done for awhile now :-)
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About warranty seals.
When I worked at a mainstream PC shop, every desktop got a warranty seal after it was built.
It was 100% the same for HW like HP PCs at the late 1990/early2000.
Also my A4000 had the warranty seal, but it had been broken by the importer who added 2MB chip RAM to it, I added HDD, FAST RAM, etc... But still the warranty worked 100%, once the simm socket had to be fixed and once the A3640 board..
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Honestly, every PC I've ever bought had the sticker that warned about voiding warranty if the seal was broken, except perhaps with my first Atari 800XL. I know my A3000 did, because I recall throwing a Supra 2400zi modem in it myself and then later taking it in with bad memory in it and there was no issues with warranty.
I always saw it as an ass saving measure on the part of the manufacturers, really. Some clown comes in with a CPU ripped off the board, you can wag your finger at him and say "sorry, you did this yourself when you should have taken it to an authorized service dealer", but in my experiences they never gave 2 craps about some guy just putting a modem in a machine if a completely unrelated problem later popped up.
In regards to the X1000, from day one I always felt the biggest mistake was the fact they didn't simply offer an Acube style mobo only option for system builders. While the X1000 may be attractive to some, there's a huge number of people that find prebuilt machines absolutely reprehensible, whether they be an Amiga or a windows pc. I don't need a prebuilt machine, I refuse to pay the price of them when I am entirely capable of building what I consider a much more attractive system to MY specs for less cost. Last prebuilt PC I bought was well over 10 years ago, and I wouldn't have bought my SAM if it was only offered in prebuilt form.
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In regards to the X1000, from day one I always felt the biggest mistake was the fact they didn't simply offer an Acube style mobo only option for system builders.
given how much problems some users are obviously putting a working os4 system together, i think the choice to provide a preconfigured machine was actually a better one.
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Point taken, very valid. I honestly had a high degree of interest in the X1000, hoping it would be available in mobo/OS only form. Looking back, prolly a good thing it didn't turn out that way. From a profit angle I can see why they would prefer the prebuilt method, however - but at that price, it shut the door on many people. A mobo only option at a decent rate would have done wonders, imho. Honestly, I hated the case more than anything, that put me off a great deal - but that's merely personal preference.
I haven't had a lick of trouble out of my SAM/OS4 rig, which I bought in bare mobo form - and I haven't heard out of anyone having trouble with the SAM's they put together themselves.
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Just wondering what people think about this:
http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=908#p11316
First thought that came into my head was "jorkany got far to much time on his hands looking at a support forum for hardware he not got and not interested and needs another hobby, " but I digress, I too found the comment a little odd from Amigakit, considering you can expand the AmigaONE, it has Xorro slot, 2x PCIx1 slots and another PCIx16 slot empty so their are slots not in use, I'm half intrested to know if a PCIx1 convert to PCI slot could work here for another graphics card?
http://www.beaglesoft.com/pcie2pci.htm
But any way from what I can make out on my warrenty information their nothing wrong with opening up my AmigaOne and putting what I like in it as long as I correctly installed the device and device I installed did'nt cause a fault. I think all that he is saying is the current setup is a proven and tested setup if you mess with it then obviously they can no longer guarantee that.
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@duce:
I haven't heard out of anyone having trouble with the SAM's they put together themselves.
here you go:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=35226&forum=33
while, as it seems this isnt exactly customary to talk about the problems in the open, it rather appears usual to accept them as a part of the deal and only report back in case of major breakage. you might notice remarks such as to head with it to hyperion forum. not that it obviously helps so much, but it "keeps noise level down" and "trolls off".;)
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First thought that came into my head was "jorkany got far to much time on his hands looking at a support forum for hardware he not got and not interested and needs another hobby, "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XcKBmdfpWs&ob=av2n
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So were the warranty seals on my A500 and A1200 not legally binding?
Dunno. At least in Finland they arent. On the other hand Amiga 500 doesnt have serviceable parts inside and you shouldnt have any reason to open it.
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at least the a600/1200 had an expansion door to attach regular upgrades such as accels without the neccessity to open the case. the hd upgrade was another question though, whis has seldom be handled in exactly professional way i must admit..
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That's why it's called BETATESTER/EarlyBird/FirstEncounters version. Onboard components does not yet have full support.
If you want to speculate about why those components still don't have support after 2+ years of development, please start another thread. This thread is for discussion on why a computer claimed to be "teh NEW Amiga!" doesn't support the time-honored Amiga tradition of tinkering.
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this tradition is bull****!! i never tinker with any computer be it amiga or not unless i need to..
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For me this tinkering-episode started later after my beloved A500 when I got a used A2000 and became worse after I got me an A1200 :)
Before that I didn't feel the need or there just wasn't any need to tinker, just plug-play memory expansions and extra disk drive. So for me the tinkering isn't any tradition or a must in Amiga-ways, but a nice option. If something works out-of-the-box no need for that. To overly sum it up: "if it's not broke, don't fix it!"
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If you want to speculate about why those components still don't have support after 2+ years of development, please start another thread. This thread is for discussion on why a computer claimed to be "teh NEW Amiga!" doesn't support the time-honored Amiga tradition of tinkering.
Of course it's not! It's about jorkany having another dig at Hyperion and OS4 as any fool can plainly see.
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Of course it's not! It's about jorkany having another dig at Hyperion and OS4 as any fool can plainly see.
Hey! I could see that! Does that mean you're calling me a fool? :P
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I'm a "Groo the wanderer" fan. :D
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this tradition is bull****!! i never tinker with any computer be it amiga or not unless i need to..
Then there's no point in listening to your opinion.
Personally, i've never had a computer I didn't tinker with.
I'm a "Groo the wanderer" fan. :D
Sergio Aragones rules! Personally I've dug that guy since my childhood (with Mad magazines "marginal art" and DCs Plop comics)!
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@Jorkany
First Contact wasn't supposed to be complete in terms devices being supported by OS4. It was done to get boards out to people keen to get systems out to people who were prepared to accept that not everything would be working straight away.
This isn't something that was hidden from the customer so why make such a fuss, especially when you aren't a customer.
OS4 supports multiple video cards. I have a Radeon 9250 and an X1550 in my XE and there is no problem with running different apps on both cards at the same time. You can do same with a classic Amiga under OS3. A card with dual outputs can only currently display the same image
Chris is advising caution because he doesn't want inexperienced users causing warranty issues. Most competent users will just change what they like anyway. Changing the heatsink and fan will void the warranty but I think anything else is just advice.
I would rephrase your quote above to read "Chris is advising caution because he doesn't want Customer Support issues.", and not "Warranty" issues.
I can't believe such a big deal is being made from his comment. Since Chris and the others at AmigaKit are very busy trying to get all of the "First Contact" AmigaOne X1000 computers assembled, tested and shipped out to the First Contact buyers, plus running the rest of the usual AmigaKit business, it is only natural for him to want as little as possible new Customer Service issues, to have to deal with. I don't see anything strange in his comment.
There are some "First Contact" AmigaOne X1000 buyers who are first time buyers (like me) of any OS4.x system. This fact alone creates more support issues than normal.
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I can't believe such a big deal is being made from his comment. Since Chris and the others at AmigaKit are very busy trying to get all of the "First Contact" AmigaOne X1000 computers assembled, tested and shipped out to the First Contact buyers, plus running the rest of the usual AmigaKit business, it is only natural for him to want as little as possible new Customer Service issues, to have to deal with. I don't see anything strange in his comment.
The behaviour of certain people on these forums reminds me of a few Dave Chappelle skits under the title "the haters club."
Hans
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The behaviour of certain people on these forums reminds me of a few Dave Chappelle skits under the title "the haters club."
Hans
Sorry about that Hans. I've always been very supportive of the X1000 (which should help counter the blue vs red nonsense).
But some of the posters here are very negative toward PPC based systems and NG OS' in general.
That's Amigans for you. You give some of them exactly what they want and some of the others **** on it.