Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: orb85750 on March 03, 2012, 05:44:53 PM
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Before you answer, please consider that, while the new Amiga systems being released are somewhat removed from the classics, they are not as far removed as the current Mac machines are from the classic Mac machines (and I don't think anyone is complaining that the latest Mac is not really a Mac -- On second thought, I guess someone is always complaining).
Anyway, please give it some thought. I'm still struggling with this question myself, though I have not yet lost sleep over it. There's probably no right or wrong answer, which makes me somewhat uncomfortable too.
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Custom hardware running a variety of AmigaOS / Workbench v1.0 through v4.x
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I've always liked the way an Amiga feels, tactily that is. The physical feeling of resting the palms of your hands on front of the keyboard, to typing on the keys, doing the "reach-a-round" on an A500 popping disks in and out, placing your index and middle fingers on the top/side of an A1000 and using your thumb to pop a disk out, to the feel of the original 2 button mouse... list goes on and on that way. Then there's the familiar and comfortable idiosyncrasies of the OS. Performing tasks, using the CLI AND Workbench together, dragging windows and screens around, et al.
Other computers, especially the C64 and Apple ]['s have their own tactile feel which I can appreciate too. Earlier Atari 8-bits are nice as well, but the ST always had a "cheap" feel to me. Plastic seems more brittle or something and the case design (keys too?) seems to have sharper edges and are not as comfortable to use.
Bottom line: the look and feel of the legacy systems are what makes an Amiga an Amiga to me. New hardware and cases with generic mass produced Chinese input devices running "modern" Amiga OS's or Amiga-like OS's are NOT real Amiga's. As "cool" (and frustrating) as they may be to putz around with for a while, I just can't get into them which is why I've always gone back to legacy hardware running 1.3 or 3.1 before too long.
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A crappy mindset, an inability to perceive the reality of the computing landscape, an absurd hatred of any chip not motorola, triple digit costing peripherals that should cost in the very low double digits, flame wars, fractured camps, and no sense of humor. :razz:
Honestly? It should be an idea/concept for an operating system with the ability to be used on any commodity hardware. Or, it is a computer manufactured by Commodore until their demise.
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A computer originally designed by Jay and co., distributed by Commodore (and briefly at the end by Escom) in the 80's and 90's, running on 68k processors.
Seriously...
Now, there is also the "something that was, at least initially, ahead of it's time and significantly better (at least for me) than anything else that was out there...
(That doesn't mean other tech wasn't doing parts of it. There were other multitasking OSes, and other machines with great sound and/or graphics.. It was the whole enchilada for me...)
And the right technology at the right time....
But that fits lots of technologies, and those aren't "Amiga" to me...
One could pretty easily argue that the iPhone did that.. I'm not a fan per se, but I don't deny what Apple did and the result..
But it's in no way "Amiga" just because it did things (new or just better) in a way that was just right at the right time...
Then again, I don't consider PPC or Intel boxes run something called Mac something OS Macs...
To me, Macs are 68k machines..
PPC machines running MacOS are PPC Macs, and Intel machines running MacOS are OSX machines..
That's not to take away anything from any PPC or Intel (AROS or emulated) machines that have Amiga connections..
I think some of those are incredible!!!!!
They just aren't Amiga to me...
Amiga-inspired. Amiga-like. Amiga-licensed..
But not Amiga..
desiv
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Simple: OCS/ECS/AGA+680x0. Everything else is Amiga inspired. Perhaps an overly simple viewpoint, but that's how I see it ;)
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Does it reset with Ctrl-A-A? Does it load Shadow of the Beast from DF0:? If yes, that seems to be an Amiga.
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Two different questions in one there from my perspective.
An "Amiga" (capital A) is computer containing a 68k cpu and one of ocs/ecs/aga.
That one is pretty clear cut, but "amiga" (lower case a) can be any one of a plethora of things, although it basically comes down to the way the system works. OS4, MOS, AROS, and Amithlon are all equally "amiga" to me, as is the minimig. UAE to a lesser degree, but it depends on how a person uses it. Some UAE users I consider to be amigans, others not so much.
Anything post commodore falls under the monikor of "amiga". Very much a parallel to *nix these days. It's simply a word to suggest a certain paradiagm of computing.
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that unique flavour of customchips gently blended with a beyond-its-time-os.
put away one of those thing and you'll have something that's not an amiga. something similar or not: another thing. but not an amiga
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A not so deep answer, I don't care about the issue anymore.
I don't need Amiga hardware to run software designed for an Amiga, so I don't own one anymore.
And while my first professional experiences in computing were centered around Motorola processors, I'm more interested in PPC and ARM now.
You all can argue this issue. Amiga has become nothing but a trademark (now to be pasted on whatever hardware the current licensees desire).
A, btw, to the poster that mentioned that later Macs are nothing like the 68K originals -Thank god! Because they really sucked.
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@orb85750
Philosophical Perspective (what you asked for):
The API is what defines something Amiga, because everything else (the entire "environment", all the underlying OS code (all the libraries, devices, etc)) derives from that, as well as all third party applications that makes use of it. The API is the core, it's what sets the rules, the possibilities, the limitations, and everything else comes from this. Hence, anything that can put up a proper Amiga API is Amiga, including (in order of appearance) Amiga OS 1-3, AROS, MorphOS and OS4.
Rhetorical Perspective (is there *really* any doubt that the Amiga was a series of computers made by Commodore that died in 1995?):
The Commodore Amiga 1000-4000 (and anything in between) HW, coupled with Amiga OS 1.0-3.1.
Trade-Mark Perspective (what unfortunately seems to be the most important thing to way too many people around here):
Anything that has a valid Amiga trade mark, properly licensed (or kind of "robbed" like in Hyperion's case) from the legit Amiga IP Holder, including products from Hyperion, Commodore-USA, IContain, etc...
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@orb85750
Philosophical Perspective (what you asked for):
The API is what defines something Amiga, because everything else (the entire "environment", all the underlying OS code (all the libraries, devices, etc)) derives from that, as well as all third party applications that makes use of it. The API is the core, it's what sets the rules, the possibilities, the limitations, and everything else comes from this. Hence, anything that can put up a proper Amiga API is Amiga, including (in order of appearance) Amiga OS 1-3, AROS, MorphOS and OS4.
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Quite a good point.
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I already answered, but after starring at my a1200 I also have an alternative perspective which goes a little something like:
plastic, metal, silicon, duct tape :)
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Quite a good point.
As long as your talking applications and not software that hit the hardware directly..
For many of us, it's the look and feel provided by the APIs, but it's also the tricks and flashes that were provided hitting the hardware directly..
Which is why, for me, it's original and it's actual hardware..
desiv
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Before you answer, please consider that, while the new Amiga systems being released are somewhat removed from the classics, they are not as far removed as the current Mac machines are from the classic Mac machines (and I don't think anyone is complaining that the latest Mac is not really a Mac -- On second thought, I guess someone is always complaining).
Anyway, please give it some thought. I'm still struggling with this question myself, though I have not yet lost sleep over it. There's probably no right or wrong answer, which makes me somewhat uncomfortable too.
What bothers me the most, is that these same questions keep being asked over and over again, with zero productive answers being come up with, year after year.
Everyone knows that there is no "One" answer that everyone will agree with, so I fail to see the usefulness of bringing up the same question again and again that can never be resolved, and asking the question usually stirs up more disagreement within the community and more disunity between us, so I don't see how it can serve any positive purpose for any of us.
If members here can't do something else, besides post this and similar questions over and over again, something that is productive for the "Amiga" community as a whole, with their time, then perhaps they should do something else with their family or friends instead, that is productive, and/or supportive in some way toward the rest of their lives.
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While I get what youre saying, there's two issues with your rseponse there Amigadave. Firstly, the recurring questions arent instigated by the same person over and over. Not everyone checks forums daily, ergo its not the same people involved in such threads all the time.
The second issue is the simple fact that no-one is obligated to do anything with thier amiga hobby apart from those accepting money and/or selling products. If a persons whole interest in the amiga is just to talk about it then good luck to them and who's business is it to to tell them otherwise?
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While I get what youre saying, there's two issues with your rseponse there Amigadave. Firstly, the recurring questions arent instigated by the same person over and over. Not everyone checks forums daily, ergo its not the same people involved in such threads all the time.
The second issue is the simple fact that no-one is obligated to do anything with thier amiga hobby apart from those accepting money and/or selling products. If a persons whole interest in the amiga is just to talk about it then good luck to them and who's business is it to to tell them otherwise?
And then there are other people (God bless 'em) like Piru that actually DO something.
I don't have any problem with people that just want to collect, use, and sell old hardware.
But some of us like to advance forward. These are the people that are using OS4, AROS, and MorphOS.
Heck, even some of the legacy users want to upgrade/hack/modify improve their hardware. Thus you've got software projects like AROS 68K and a multitude of hardware projects.
There's no right or wrong in this, but I find it thrilling that there are people who still want to find a way to make the experience better.
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If a persons whole interest in the amiga is just to talk about it then good luck to them and who's business is it to to tell them otherwise?
Exactly.
Morphosdave, that was a ****astic response and quite puzzling. How is that attitude or stance helping the legacy Amiga community? Oh wait, it's not.
We all value the hobby differently, but for someone to say "screw the past, go find something else to do" with the pretension of moving "forward" with a hobby OS, is just plain silly and needs to get over themselves.
If you get your jollies wasting time (and that's all anyone here is really doing in the grand scheme of things) screwing around with a hobby computing platform, who cares what era it's from or what hardware it's on? Just have fun with it. After all, that's all any of this stuff is about anyway: recreation.
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Hi,
What makes an Amiga an Amiga?
Very interesting question, could it be the white case, how about the "A" on the key board, being able to reset it by pressing the CNTRL Amiga Amiga keys,
how about the gronk gronk gronk when a floppy loads.
Have you ever considered the multi-tasking?
or
The slip sliding screens up and down
The playing of music while you were working on a spreadsheet
or how about the
listening to music while you painted a picture in DPaint.
But
What makes Amiga the Amiga is listening to Amigadave cry about asking the same question over and over again, and that question will never be resolved, and neither will Amigadaves frustration on just what makes an Amiga an Amiga?
Will the answer ever be found?
smerf
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Hi,
How about still having and using it 20 years after its demise.
and
you know what, it still works as good as the first exciting day that I turned it on. I just don't get the same feel from my PC.
Not even in emulator mode.
Don't know why
It just is what it is and thats all that it is
AN AMIGA!!!
smerf
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Hi,
What makes an Amiga an Amiga?
Very interesting question, could it be the white case, how about the "A" on the key board, being able to reset it by pressing the CNTRL Amiga Amiga keys,
how about the gronk gronk gronk when a floppy loads.
Have you ever considered the multi-tasking?
or
The slip sliding screens up and down
The playing of music while you were working on a spreadsheet
or how about the
listening to music while you painted a picture in DPaint.
But
What makes Amiga the Amiga is listening to Amigadave cry about asking the same question over and over again, and that question will never be resolved, and neither will Amigadaves frustration on just what makes an Amiga an Amiga?
Will the answer ever be found?
smerf
No.
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Yes!
What makes an Amiga an Amiga? hmmmmm...
I think this is a paradoxical question. I mean, what makes art art? And what makes architecture architecture? What makes an Amiga an Amiga? :rant:
So now i have solved the paradox, sit back and have a drink! :pint:
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Nostalgia...
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An Amiga for me is WINUAE.
I'm getting rid of my Amiga classic hardware and CD32.....for me now the Amiga is WINUAE and Amiga magazines (scanning them).... ah those were the days!
Still love the Amiga, but unfortunately technology has moved on!
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Amiga is a computer with a PowerPC processor.
68k even in times of Commodore was too slow.
x86-based computer can not be Amiga.
If I wanted to use the PC, after the fall of Commodore, I would use just MS Windows.
Of course Amiga must have something better than AGA, AGA was crap even when it enters the market.
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A P4 rescued from the dumpster by using AROS...
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... I just don't get the same feel from my PC.
Not even in emulator mode.
Don't know why...
smerf
An Amiga for me is WINUAE.
....for me now the Amiga is WINUAE ...
A P4 rescued from the dumpster by using AROS...
Amiga is a computer with a PowerPC processor.
68k even in times of Commodore was too slow...
Where's the "For me its AOS4"? Oh yeah, on AmigaWorld.
God I love this dissension!
And, again, for me its MorphOS.
And, btw, stop ragging out on David. He's done more to promote our community's activities then most of you.
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Before you answer, please consider that, while the new Amiga systems being released are somewhat removed from the classics, they are not as far removed as the current Mac machines are from the classic Mac machines (and I don't think anyone is complaining that the latest Mac is not really a Mac -- On second thought, I guess someone is always complaining).
Anyway, please give it some thought. I'm still struggling with this question myself, though I have not yet lost sleep over it. There's probably no right or wrong answer, which makes me somewhat uncomfortable too.
i would say bespoke hardware -- non-mainstream -- running amigaOS (any version).
-- eliyahu
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I'll tell you what makes an Amiga in my books...
a few months ago, I was going to show Mr Beanbag to a friend's 13 year old daughter. I was clicking through windows on the workbench.
Her: what kind of computer is this?
Me: Amiga 1200
Her: What is that, how old is it?
Me: *points at (c) Commodore 1992 at top of Workbench Screen*
Her: How come it's so fast?
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My Amiga was and still is the bestest friend I have ever had. Never let me down and has always been there for me when times have been rough. I guess the fact that the computer kept me sane through some very tricky times makes her very special. Nothing has the ability to make me feel happy more than the Amiga. Often when I've been driving around and feeling glum I have thought about AMOS or DOpus or doing a bit of programming on the Amiga and its carried me through. The Amiga is and will always be a very good friend. Which is just the way the makers saw her.
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WHen I first bought an Amiga it was state of the art equipment on state of the art hardware that had a unique bond between hard and software. It took me places in video and images that no other computer could. That Amiga will not come again.
In terms of what now is an amiga, I'd say pretty much anything now that runs an amiga-like OS is an amiga, virtual or physical.
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An Amiga to me is any computer that is designed first and foremost to run AmigaOS in any flavour - be it 1.0 or 4.1.
So, to me, my Sam440ep is as much an Amiga as my A500s.
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For me Amiga its more than just the OS. Amiga is the Hardware too, you know, Customs Chips, keyboards, PSU split on/off switch, CPU cases designs, and all that stuffs.
Anyway about OS, Real Multitasking system, stereo sound, funny icons, "Guru Meditation" error messages, flicker in high resolution modes, and more Amiga features.
For now i dont fell the new "Amigas" as "real real" Amigas.
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I know what you mean. But then I see A500s as "Classic Amigas" which are a particular type of Amiga. They're a subset of "Amiga" which contains Classic Amigas and NextGen Amigas.
The thing is, if CBM has continued with the Amiga, we'd still be using hardware much like we are now. There's 0% chance they'd have continued down the custom chip route, because whereas in the mid-80s it was necessary, these days it'd be corporate suicide.
In fact, it's my opinion that if CBM had continued, they'd have done much more damage to AmigaOS and we'd be in a much worse position than we're in now.
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Before you answer, please consider that, while the new Amiga systems being released are somewhat removed from the classics, they are not as far removed as the current Mac machines are from the classic Mac machines (and I don't think anyone is complaining that the latest Mac is not really a Mac -- On second thought, I guess someone is always complaining).
Anyway, please give it some thought. I'm still struggling with this question myself, though I have not yet lost sleep over it. There's probably no right or wrong answer, which makes me somewhat uncomfortable too.
It's obviously going to be a different answer for everyone, but for me personally I think the only Amiga's were the ones made by Commodore (including those models (re)released by Escom).
Anything else to me personally is not really an 'Amiga'.
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I'll answer the question by telling a story. Don't worry, I'll be brief.
When I bought my first computer - an Amiga 2000 in 1989 I also bought DPaint with it. I proceeded to teach myself computer graphics and animation with it. It took me about a year to feel that I had 'mastered' the tools. the fact that you could use several tools AT ONCE was quite exciting and freeing for an artist.
In the early 90's I moved to LA and went looking for work. One place I applied had me take a 'test' on their proprietary graphics software. (meaning it had been developed in-house). I found that it was shockingly (for me) simple. You could only use ONE tool at a time and you had to exit from That tool to find another tool to use. Because I had experience with a significantly superior and elegant program (DPaint) i found this inferior program easy to figure out. The person giving me this 'test' was actually SHOCKED at how fast I figured it out. Of course, I didn't tell her about my Amiga experience. But I know that put me at an advantage.
As I continued to other jobs again and again I found that my education gotten from my Amiga held me in good stead. So, to me, Amiga is the Best Artists' tool using a computer I have ever had the privilege of learning from.
No matter what other OS I have to use (on various jobs), my Amiga education informs it. It's been an exciting ride. I don't know where i would be without it.
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Hi,
@Iggy,
How can I attack another pancake head. It is just unfair, I wasn't ragging on AmigaDave, jsut trolling. AmigaDave is one of the best people on Amiga.org. I jsut caught him on something and wanted to bust him on it.
Amigadave, if I caused you any distress please accept my humble apology for saying that you where crying about a question that has been brought up again, and again and again, and again.
but
What really does make an Amiga an Amiga?
smerf
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SYS:
C:
Devs:
Libs:
L:
S:
ENV: or ENVARC:
RAM:
DF0:
DH0: or Workbench:
DH1: or Work:
Save, Use, Cancel
and DOpus.
That's Amiga to me. It just makes sense. Logically organized, human readable, easily customized. Windows and Unix/OSX filesystem hierarchy drives me mad.
No matter what other OS I have to use (on various jobs), my Amiga education informs it. It's been an exciting ride. I don't know where i would be without it.
Great point, cecilia. I wouldn't be halfway as good with computers if I didn't learn the "right way" on the Amiga.
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I'm going to have to go with the "actually a machine produced and distributed as Amiga by Commodore from 1985-1994" line of thought, with an extension to the Escom variants of the same, because that quite succintly and definitely excludes everything I don't think is a true Amiga.
However, if I were pressed to give details, I think the key elements that make the Amiga special are these: a powerful but programmer-friendly CPU architecture, a well-designed hardware system that achieves power through flexible control of simple components, and an operating system designed to achieve tight integration with the hardware and be accessible to and enable the programmer rather than trying to shackle them.
Various systems that embody some of those principles I'll consider "Amiga-inspired," but I reserve "Amiga" for the real deal, thanks.
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Hi,
@Iggy,
How can I attack another pancake head.
smerf
But my bunny has a waffle...
Don't worry about David's sensibilities.
He'd just like to see less feuding amongst the camps (probably because, like many of us, his interests span more than one).
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Don't worry about David's sensibilities.
He'd just like to see less feuding amongst the camps....
Hey, could you pass the pannekoek peace pipe over here please? :lol:
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Simply put. It's a computer that runs AmigaOS natively.
Without the Amiga operating system there would be no Amiga computer :-)
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Simply put. It's a computer that runs AmigaOS natively.
Without the Amiga operating system there would be no Amiga computer :-)
but with this philosophy. What makes a PC a PC? MS DOS / Windows, or Linux, Solaris, or any other OS or the Hardware?.
Becouse i hear many people said somethings like "... yeah i have a PC Running Ubuntu Linux..". or ".. my PC have a brand new Windows 7!..."
You know, for any Amiga Makes an Amiga.. its the Hardware too.. more than just the OS..
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Simply put. It's a computer that runs AmigaOS natively.
Without the Amiga operating system there would be no Amiga computer :-)
That'd also make a machine designed for a different OS an Amiga :)
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Simply put. It's a computer that runs AmigaOS natively.
Without the Amiga operating system there would be no Amiga computer :-)
I agree with Fishy_Fiz and Drummerboy above, and would like to add on top of their comments: Back in the days, when the A500 was at its peak and was mostly used for gaming by the broad groups of users, the OS was at best very far, far in the background. The OS never had a focus or a priority in development back then, not even from Commodore. Often you used kickstart to physically bring up the computer and loading a game, that then took over and had its own ways of utilizing the Amiga HW directly. No sight of what you would call "AmigaOS" today, and by your definition, an Amiga 500 playing a game won't be an Amiga!
I have full respect for people thinking Amiga is all about the Amiga hardware. Because they are right; traditionally, Amiga was always about the hardware, and the OS was secondary and nothing that was really developed and evolved in a way even close to the HW evolution.
I think what you *really* want to say, however, was something along the lines of "It's all about the API" that I wrote in my comment above. I think this is what you really wanted to say, -Can it run an OS that behaves the Amiga way, has the Amiga strengths and weaknesses, the Amiga ways of doing things, runs the Amiga appliactions, etc, then it's an Amiga. But then you realized that this would also include AROS and MorphOS in the philosophical definition of what Amiga is, and because of that, you also choose to combine it with the Trade Mark definition, in order to exclude the others. "Only AmigaOS(TM) is Amiga". I'm not surprised with that, coming from you, but it's sad to this kind of apartheid mentality everytime it shows...
:(
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I guess my definition would be 1:1 to this one:
@orb85750
Philosophical Perspective (what you asked for):
The API is what defines something Amiga, because everything else (the entire "environment", all the underlying OS code (all the libraries, devices, etc)) derives from that, as well as all third party applications that makes use of it. The API is the core, it's what sets the rules, the possibilities, the limitations, and everything else comes from this. Hence, anything that can put up a proper Amiga API is Amiga, including (in order of appearance) Amiga OS 1-3, AROS, MorphOS and OS4.
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An Amiga must have Paula, Denise and Agnus (or Alice/Lisa in case it's AGA). An Amiga is an Amiga even if you run Linux, Amix or NetBSD on it.
An AmigaOS-compatible computer is something that runs some incarnation of AmigaOS but it's not an Amiga (doesn't have Amiga custom chips): it cannot run natively Amiga software that bypasses AmigaOS.
FPGA machines are Amiga-compatible reimplementations but are not Amiga machines, although in any case minimig is more "Amiga" than any PPC board with a sticker.
Example: A DRACO is an AmigaOS-compatible computer that runs Amiga software but it's not a real Amiga. A PPC board with an Amiga sticker won't turn into an Amiga even if some people insist on calling it "Amiga" just like a parrot won't be a dog even if it barks like a dog and hates cats and you call it "dog" and put him a small dog collar.
PS: An AmigaOS-compatible machine can be a wonderful machine, you could even run Amiga software on an emulator, you could run recompiled AmigaOS software but it won't be an Amiga, and sticking calling a standard ppc board "Amiga" is as silly as pretending&claiming that a "cat" is a "dog", both can bring you good company as pets but aren't the same.
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Amiga, for me back in the day, was a really cool gaming system that merged OS and 68K hardware as complete system. Hell, it could run games while Cnet PRO was dealing with someone who called into the BBS or it was calling out for UUCP traffic. Best of all, bang:buck ratio was great.
Today, it's quiet different for me. Amiga is a concept of advanced/modern hardware that will allow ideas to be pushed forward if not to the extreme bleeding edge. It has to be a computer (desktop or mobile devices) that will allow me to run modern OSs and associated software that I may need at that particular time. I would love to be able to relive the last 25 years, but that's not happening and my concern is for the next 25 years and the bar has already been set to a significant height that needs to exceeded my expectations of a OS for the next 25 years.
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who needs these "philosophical questions"? i have my one of my amigas (a4k) standing here in front of me (currently mostly running aros). and i have my pc under my desk. i dont have to ask me any such questions, nor i am interested in answers. but to each his own.
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An Amiga must have Paula, Denise and Agnus (or Alice/Lisa in case it's AGA). An Amiga is an Amiga even if you run Linux, Amix or NetBSD on it.
An AmigaOS-compatible computer is something that runs some incarnation of AmigaOS but it's not an Amiga (doesn't have Amiga custom chips): it cannot run natively Amiga software that bypasses AmigaOS.
FPGA machines are Amiga-compatible reimplementations but are not Amiga machines, although in any case minimig is more "Amiga" than any PPC board with a sticker.
Example: A DRACO is an AmigaOS-compatible computer that runs Amiga software but it's not a real Amiga. A PPC board with an Amiga sticker won't turn into an Amiga even if some people insist on calling it "Amiga" just like a parrot won't be a dog even if it barks like a dog and hates cats and you call it "dog" and put him a small dog collar.
PS: An AmigaOS-compatible machine can be a wonderful machine, you could even run Amiga software on an emulator, you could run recompiled AmigaOS software but it won't be an Amiga, and sticking calling a standard ppc board "Amiga" is as silly as pretending&claiming that a "cat" is a "dog", both can bring you good company as pets but aren't the same.
Nice... as easy as that.
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who needs these "philosophical questions"? i have my one of my amigas (a4k) standing here in front of me (currently mostly running aros). and i have my pc under my desk. i dont have to ask me any such questions, nor i am interested in answers. but to each his own.
Totally agree :)
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who needs these "philosophical questions"? i have my one of my amigas (a4k) standing here in front of me (currently mostly running aros). and i have my pc under my desk. i dont have to ask me any such questions, nor i am interested in answers. but to each his own.
It goes without saying that some people (actually, most) are not philosophical in nature. They just do stuff and use stuff. (That's OK -- this thread is not for you.) Others like to dig deeper.
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One man's philosopher is another man's troll.
We've changed, the world has changed, computing has changed in the years since the death of Commodore. I bought a shiny new plaything that was bleeding edge, with a sense that we could change our world. It's that feeling that I've always associated with the Amiga, not whether there was a snapshot menu selection or a particular set of custom chips. But the feeling has passed us by and all we are left with are the machines that remained in the wake of Commodore's death. It's most nostalgia now. More bittersweet memories of lost youth.
It goes without saying that some people (actually, most) are not philosophical in nature. They just do stuff and use stuff. (That's OK -- this thread is not for you.) Others like to dig deeper.
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It goes without saying that some people (actually, most) are not philosophical in nature. They just do stuff and use stuff. (That's OK -- this thread is not for you.) Others like to dig deeper.
but why ask that about amiga? where does it lead? you have to be aware, that it only can be answered on subjective basis and the possible answers are unlimited. especially that this isnt an amiga related question at all. similar questions you might ask about common properties of elements in any relatively large sets. probably you will end up with the "theory of forms" and the relation between ideas and objects. if you solve that "identity" question for all possible sets you will answer the question in this particular case too, but not the other way around..
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We've changed, the world has changed, computing has changed in the years since the death of Commodore. I bought a shiny new plaything that was bleeding edge, with a sense that we could change our world. It's that feeling that I've always associated with the Amiga, not whether there was a snapshot menu selection or a particular set of custom chips. But the feeling has passed us by and all we are left with are the machines that remained in the wake of Commodore's death. It's most nostalgia now. More bittersweet memories of lost youth.
Well, you can keep your midlife crisis, I'll enjoy the machines for their own merits, thanks.
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We've changed, the world has changed, computing has changed in the years since the death of Commodore. I bought a shiny new plaything that was bleeding edge, with a sense that we could change our world. It's that feeling that I've always associated with the Amiga, not whether there was a snapshot menu selection or a particular set of custom chips. But the feeling has passed us by and all we are left with are the machines that remained in the wake of Commodore's death. It's most nostalgia now. More bittersweet memories of lost youth.
It's silly to get hung up on the failure of the present to be the future of the past; I'd rather just enjoy the Amiga for its own merits, thanks.
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Before you answer, please consider that, while the new Amiga systems being released are somewhat removed from the classics, they are not as far removed as the current Mac machines are from the classic Mac machines (and I don't think anyone is complaining that the latest Mac is not really a Mac -- On second thought, I guess someone is always complaining).
Anyway, please give it some thought. I'm still struggling with this question myself, though I have not yet lost sleep over it. There's probably no right or wrong answer, which makes me somewhat uncomfortable too.
Before we used to think its the hardware. After Commodore went bust we have learned its he OS no matter the flavor.
Its kind of "Amiga Zen" someone tried to explain here
http://www.monkeyhouse.eclipse.co.uk/amiga/zen.htm
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but why ask that about amiga? where does it lead? you have to be aware, that it only can be answered on subjective basis and the possible answers are unlimited. especially that this isnt an amiga related question at all. similar questions you might ask about common properties of elements in any relatively large sets. probably you will end up with the "theory of forms" and the relation between ideas and objects. if you solve that "identity" question for all possible sets you will answer the question in this particular case too, but not the other way around..
I think many are interested in this topic. And plenty of well-thought-out answers have been posted. (I have no doubt that many others are not at all interested in this thread -- that's fine too.) It's not going to lead to some final "correct" answer that's acceptable to everyone. But the threads about the best Amiga games (or any other range of topics) don't necessarily lead to some final answer either. Was it wrong for me to ask in a non-threatening way what people consider to be an Amiga? I find it very interesting. That's why I posted it.
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well, no offence meant.
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"Effortless superiority via elegant engineering."
Whether it is an A1000 running Marble Madness in 1986 ( no other commercially sold computer or console in the world could run it better, only the Arcade PCB) or an A1200 running Super Stardust AGA (you needed a 10x faster 133mhz Pentium PC costing £1000 MORE to play this game with joysticks)
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but why ask that about amiga? where does it lead? you have to be aware, that it only can be answered on subjective basis and the possible answers are unlimited. especially that this isnt an amiga related question at all. similar questions you might ask about common properties of elements in any relatively large sets. probably you will end up with the "theory of forms" and the relation between ideas and objects. if you solve that "identity" question for all possible sets you will answer the question in this particular case too, but not the other way around..
You could go on a car forum and ask what makes a 3 series what it is, same logic and same huge range of answers from 1978 to 2012 model personal experiences of use/ownership they've had. Same principle here :)
We're here to share our thoughts n feelings.
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It's silly to get hung up on the failure of the present to be the future of the past; I'd rather just enjoy the Amiga for its own merits, thanks.
I think I've just about had enough of these thoughts that make my brain hurt.
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Was that too hard to parse? :D I mean that of course the 2000s didn't turn out how we thought they were going to in the 1990s, but it's silly to get hung up on that fact, because things never happen how we fantasize that they might - just like the 1950s didn't have the automated houses they were predicting in the 1930s, and we don't have flying cars on aerial highways like they thought we might in the '50s, and so on and so forth.
But if you get too caught up in moping about the fact that The Jetsons didn't turn out to be reality, or that the Amiga didn't stay on the bleeding edge of the computer industry, or what have you, you're going to miss the nice things about not only the actual present, but the past that you were hoping would lead to this fantasy future. Hence, I don't hold with persia's opinion that all is vanity simply because the Amiga didn't retain its position forever - nothing ever does, but that doesn't make my A1200 less neat.
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Actually, I've been expecting this reality ever since Ronald Reagan was president.
You know "trickle down" economics trickling down the backs of all our necks.
And the Jetsons was supposed to be comedic even by '60s sensibilities.
I'm actually surprised that computers have as much utility as they do have. I'm not disappointed, its just not exactly what I predicted (although I was telling everyone in the '80s that it would become "appliance like").
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I think what you *really* want to say, however, was something along the lines of "It's all about the API" that I wrote in my comment above. I think this is what you really wanted to say, -Can it run an OS that behaves the Amiga way, has the Amiga strengths and weaknesses, the Amiga ways of doing things, runs the Amiga appliactions, etc, then it's an Amiga. But then you realized that this would also include AROS and MorphOS in the philosophical definition of what Amiga is, and because of that, you also choose to combine it with the Trade Mark definition, in order to exclude the others. "Only AmigaOS(TM) is Amiga". I'm not surprised with that, coming from you, but it's sad to this kind of apartheid mentality everytime it shows...
:(
actually you are correct in that the 'spirit' of Amiga can be proudly seen in both AROS and MorphOS and I have never said anything negative about either.
What I will always comment on is when certain 'people' choose to openly participate in spreading FUD in every single OS4.x thread:mad: when you see me doing the same on MorphOS threads then you can justly make the claims you stated about me
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And the Jetsons was supposed to be comedic even by '60s sensibilities.
Yeah, but it really isn't that far removed from some of the predictions you'd see in old issues of Popular Mechanics...
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Yeah, but it really isn't that far removed from some of the predictions you'd see in old issues of Popular Mechanics...
Or World's Fair exhibits for that matter.
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I'll tell you what makes an Amiga in my books...
a few months ago, I was going to show Mr Beanbag to a friend's 13 year old daughter. I was clicking through windows on the workbench.
Her: what kind of computer is this?
Me: Amiga 1200
Her: What is that, how old is it?
Me: *points at (c) Commodore 1992 at top of Workbench Screen*
Her: How come it's so fast?
LOL.
Reminds of my what my son said when he saw me boot up my A4000 CSII 68060:
"How come they don't make computers like this anymore?"
Amiga is many things to many people. To me its a computer that puts the user in control and is efficient and elegant..
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Yeah, but it really isn't that far removed from some of the predictions you'd see in old issues of Popular Mechanics...
And that's why reality sucks.
I remember growing up, reading books about all the cool stuff from the US and Soviet space programs, and being convinced that when I was an adult, we'd have people living on the moon.
And now, we can barely punt a monkey into orbit.
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Yes, but you don't want to get so focused on that that you lose sight of the things about reality that rock. We don't have moon colonies, but we do have the Amiga, and I'll place Lemmings at least on par with a moon colony.
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Adhering to the inescapable heritage of humanity, and in many ways powerless against the line of ancestors preceding, we have cycled over this ground countless times, criss crossed hither and yonder summing not too high to count, but rather lost the count too many times, in memories receding. Deja Vu abound we approach moments both heralded and unexpected with a sense of wonderment and at the same time with an undeniable feeling of the familiar, we love and hate in the same instance, polarised and paralysed, transfixed and untethered, empowered and humbled. It's not the moment you get your first bicycle, or the moment the training wheels are removed, nor the first time the steadying hand relents letting you glide alone, but rather the lack of a single moment when something cognitive and calculated submits to the intuitive and innate, when riding a bike is not about maintaining balance and the pedalling rate, but about the adventures you choose and the paths you may roam.
Moments pass, and at our discretion are moved to memory, short term fibs, long term quibbles, the dots connected, accepted or rejected, stretched or squeezed, polished or teased, take only what fits and the rest is neglected. Reason is simple, we're all but the same, it's all for the story, the creating and telling, the fame and the glory, who we are by the things that we do. Destinations aside, it's the journey we take. A novel's single random page may compel, though chances are it won't clue you in, not like reading it to the end all the way from the beginning. Shoe box full of pictures to a stranger is just that, a jumble of moments, formless and flat. Not that it matters, those moments are yours, divided from context, bereft of emotion, that which makes them spring to life, recalling comforting scents, heartwarming sounds, and making one pause.
Inadvertently we strive to impart our story, the restless memes toward an agreeable host. Animated and exuberant, or quiet and reserved, we intonate every word with care and patience, paying attention to the cadence, the ebbs and flows, the highs and the lows, pacing it just right. Too fast, and they're left behind, too slow, and they wander off in their mind. Just right, and they relish and savour every word, every image, every sound. To travel away they needn't ride a horse, a camel, or mule, they needn't catch bus, a cab, or a train, nor board a ship or get on a plane, with eyes closed they are transplanted away, from their world into another's, returning but wishing to stay, and like precocious little eight year olds with glee they say "Again! Tell it again!"
Greatness; inbred, sought, or imposed, in the end it's still that. The anchor point in the imagination of all hominids since. Ouroboros marked, one born of the other to birth the bearer anew, we need the stories of heroes, fables of their conquests, accounts of their trials, how they've met their ends, and how end made beginnings give us something to do. Our imaginations surge and our spirits soar, by the deeds of our predecessors we are emboldened to act, by the words brought forth from bold acts we are honoured to carry the flame. We will win where they failed, we will fail away from the prise, and our failings will be there to be won by those that carry on in our name. And we will sleep soundly, smiling with the secret of the brave few that imagined clearly, spoke freely, moulded and kneaded, stoked and kilned, and bore their dreams for the rest. For in those moments, that shaped that chapter, we were great.
Anachronism chased made many puffed chests. With so much gained so much was also lost, by hubris not seen, and by painting a new scene, none could see at what cost. Confidence so easily becomes complacence, turning and turning, brewing and churning, seeding greed and reaping foul, the sin, the crime, is all of ours. And where forests burned come trees anew, not quite the same, not the ones we knew. The leaves and trunks, branches and roots, the rustling sounds, and the twinkling lights, it all looks good but just doesn't feel right. Different animals have made here a home, flourishing and thriving, beautiful and inspiring, to think that once we sat upon that thrown.
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Adhering to the inescapable heritage of humanity, and in many ways powerless against the line of ancestors preceding, we have cycled over this ground countless times, criss crossed hither and yonder summing not too high to count, but rather lost the count too many times, in memories receding. Deja Vu abound we approach moments both heralded and unexpected with a sense of wonderment and at the same time with an undeniable feeling of the familiar, we love and hate in the same instance, polarised and paralysed, transfixed and untethered, empowered and humbled. It's not the moment you get your first bicycle, or the moment the training wheels are removed, nor the first time the steadying hand relents letting you glide alone, but rather the lack of a single moment when something cognitive and calculated submits to the intuitive and innate, when riding a bike is not about maintaining balance and the pedalling rate, but about the adventures you choose and the paths you may roam.
Moments pass, and at our discretion are moved to memory, short term fibs, long term quibbles, the dots connected, accepted or rejected, stretched or squeezed, polished or teased, take only what fits and the rest is neglected. Reason is simple, we're all but the same, it's all for the story, the creating and telling, the fame and the glory, who we are by the things that we do. Destinations aside, it's the journey we take. A novel's single random page may compel, though chances are it won't clue you in, not like reading it to the end all the way from the beginning. Shoe box full of pictures to a stranger is just that, a jumble of moments, formless and flat. Not that it matters, those moments are yours, divided from context, bereft of emotion, that which makes them spring to life, recalling comforting scents, heartwarming sounds, and making one pause.
Inadvertently we strive to impart our story, the restless memes toward an agreeable host. Animated and exuberant, or quiet and reserved, we intonate every word with care and patience, paying attention to the cadence, the ebbs and flows, the highs and the lows, pacing it just right. Too fast, and they're left behind, too slow, and they wander off in their mind. Just right, and they relish and savour every word, every image, every sound. To travel away they needn't ride a horse, a camel, or mule, they needn't catch bus, a cab, or a train, nor board a ship or get on a plane, with eyes closed they are transplanted away, from their world into another's, returning but wishing to stay, and like precocious little eight year olds with glee they say "Again! Tell it again!"
Greatness; inbred, sought, or imposed, in the end it's still that. The anchor point in the imagination of all hominids since. Ouroboros marked, one born of the other to birth the bearer anew, we need the stories of heroes, fables of their conquests, accounts of their trials, how they've met their ends, and how end made beginnings give us something to do. Our imaginations surge and our spirits soar, by the deeds of our predecessors we are emboldened to act, by the words brought forth from bold acts we are honoured to carry the flame. We will win where they failed, we will fail away from the prise, and our failings will be there to be won by those that carry on in our name. And we will sleep soundly, smiling with the secret of the brave few that imagined clearly, spoke freely, moulded and kneaded, stoked and kilned, and bore their dreams for the rest. For in those moments, that shaped that chapter, we were great.
Anachronism chased made many puffed chests. With so much gained so much was also lost, by hubris not seen, and by painting a new scene, none could see at what cost. Confidence so easily becomes complacence, turning and turning, brewing and churning, seeding greed and reaping foul, the sin, the crime, is all of ours. And where forests burned come trees anew, not quite the same, not the ones we knew. The leaves and trunks, branches and roots, the rustling sounds, and the twinkling lights, it all looks good but just doesn't feel right. Different animals have made here a home, flourishing and thriving, beautiful and inspiring, to think that once we sat upon that thrown.
I would have said plastic and metal... But your answer's good too..
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I would have said plastic and metal... But your answer's good too..
Party Pooper! :whack: :D
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Yesterday, the Amiga was a special machine that allowed you to see the future.
Today, it is a special machine that allows you to see the past...