Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Piru on February 04, 2012, 02:14:09 PM
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Even more benchmarks: This time distributed.net client benchmark result for OGR-NG and RC5-72.
(http://sintonen.fi/pics/dnetc_benchmark.png)
sources:
Power Mac G4 1.8GHz values from Károly "Chain|Q" Balogh
PowerBook G4 1.67GHz and Mac mini G4 1.5GHz values by me
AmigaOne X1000 PA6T 1.8GHz values (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=35053&forum=33&start=260&viewmode=flat&order=0#651082)
Sam 460ex 1.0GHz values (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=32858&forum=33#591840)
AltiVec is used if present.
*Update* The original picture had Sam460 OGR-NG and RC5-72 values swapped. It's fixed now.
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I'm starting to wonder if the compilers for the pa6t are just crap and its hitting cache misses/branch misses etc and nuking its pipelines. I'd expect similar results of x1000 to the other g4's when it comes to raw cpu tasks...
and it may just be the pa6t really isnt all that fantastic and meeting the hype....
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I'd expect similar results of x1000 to the other g4's when it comes to raw cpu tasks...
PA6T is not a G4. Its core is an independent design. And for sure it is not the 8-th wonder of the world.
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Even more benchmarks:
sources:
Power Mac G4 1.8GHz values from Károly "Chain|Q" Balogh
PowerBook G4 1.67GHz and Mac mini G4 1.5GHz values by me
AmigaOne X1000 PA6T 1.8GHz values (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=35053&forum=33&start=260&viewmode=flat&order=0#651082)
Sam 460ex 1.0GHz values (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=32858&forum=33#591840)
AltiVec is used if present.
*Update* The original picture had Sam460 OGR-NG and RC5-72 values swapped. It's fixed now.
Piru
I think it would be really beneficial to test the various amiga compatible platforms at 68K emulation because there is a lot of apps that will never be ported to PPC so running legacy code is a large part of what these systems will do...
Would it be possible to rerun the 68K dnetc benchmark on those machines?
Also, what is the procedure?
dnetc-68K -bench
it does several runs 68000/68030/68060 .... just take the fastest?
if so
UAE i740qm (1.7ghz) ORG-NG : 4,674,671 RC5-72 : 4,116,455
A1200/060(50mhz) ORG-NG : 251,437 RC5-72 : 141,118
Minimig 1.1 (50mhz) - unable to initialize core. (maybe not enough ram?)
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And for sure it is not the 8-th wonder of the world.
That's for sure! :lol: At least it's faster than the Sam... ;)
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PA6T is not a G4. Its core is an independent design. And for sure it is not the 8-th wonder of the world.
did I say it was? I said It expected its raw compute power to be on par with the other g4s, meaning the 3 g4's cpu's in the benchmark.
my only thought is the g4 compiler pipeline is mature, the pa6t is not, and I just wonder if poor compiler support is more to blame for the initial showing of low benchmarks in areas I'd expect it to be on par with g4 class cpu's.
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Seems the military PowerPC processor used in X1000 is approximatly 30% faster compared to an ordinary PowerPC using the same clock frequency.
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Seems the military PowerPC processor used in X1000 is approximatly 30% faster compared to an ordinary PowerPC using the same clock frequency.
It has 30% worse benchmark results and is 30% faster? Interesting.
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What I'd like to see, is how well Freescale's T4 and T5 AMP processor fair in a similar comparison.
Also, to be fair, the PA6T is a very nice Soc with great PCIe support.
No other PPC based processor offers as many lanes as this processor does.
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Seems the military PowerPC processor used in X1000 is approximatly 30% faster compared to an ordinary PowerPC using the same clock frequency.
Look again once you've sobered up.
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Is it possible to buy G4 processors new from anywhere these days?
Not talking about old mac's or whatever, but are there sources where factory new chips for a new computer design could be sourced, or is that a completely closed off option?
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MOS and old Apple machines are better than AmigaOS 4 and any SAM/X1000.
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The poor performance of the PA6T could shed new light on the whole ISA shift affair by Apple. I mean, the PA6T was (inofficially) the scheduled successor of the 744x in Apple's laptops. But it performs rather worse. Not well suited for a 7447A successor laptop. ibm hat no fitting offerings for Apple and Freescale's 86xx were also not the huge step forward. No wonder why Apple looked elsewhere eventually.
But okay, Apple would have had one huge advantage over AOS4 and the X1000, tOS X has SMP support, so a Powerbook PA6T would have benefited quite a lot from the 2nd core.
Anyway, from those historical what-if games I would like to see an benchmark between a PA6T and 8641D based system. It seems to me as if Freescale's chip would have been the better choice eventually. A shame it was not used in a GP computer back when it was current.
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MOS and old Apple machines are better than AmigaOS 4 and any SAM/X1000.
Linux on my dual core is better than MOS and old Apple machines.
But that's not really the point, is it?
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Is it possible to buy G4 processors new from anywhere these days?
Not talking about old mac's or whatever, but are there sources where factory new chips for a new computer design could be sourced, or is that a completely closed off option?
Freescale still sells 744x processors, e.g 7447A:
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC7447A&tab=Buy_Parametric_Tab&nodeId=018rH38653&pspll=1&fromSearch=false
or 7448
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC7448&tab=Buy_Parametric_Tab&nodeId=018rH38653&pspll=1&fromSearch=false
Prices are high, but not completely nuts.
But G4 series rather shifted to the 86xx chip line - which unfortunately never made it into a GP computer..
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Freescale still sells 744x processors, e.g 7447A:
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC7447A&tab=Buy_Parametric_Tab&nodeId=018rH38653&pspll=1&fromSearch=false
or 7448
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC7448&tab=Buy_Parametric_Tab&nodeId=018rH38653&pspll=1&fromSearch=false
Prices are high, but not completely nuts.
But G4 series rather shifted to the 86xx chip line - which unfortunately never made it into a GP computer..
So... would they have been an option for something like this?
Do we know what the cost difference is between that and the PA96 thingie?
In other words, would using those chips have saved cost significantly?
I guess what I am fishing for is.. how much of the computers cost is made up by the processor specifically?
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MOS and old Apple machines are better than AmigaOS 4 and any SAM/X1000.
YES SIR ! that's why I come to an Amiga site to hear about old Apple products and NOT new developments in AmigaOS and available hardware:roflmao:
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Linux on my dual core is better than MOS and old Apple machines.
But that's not really the point, is it?
It is. It's exactly the point of all these threads of the last few days.
It's to prove that MOS and old Apple machines (since there are no original MOS machines and people have to do with Apple's old products) and consequently my Win 7/Linux on my quad core 4.8GHz pc is faster than your Linux box. There is this raging, rabid desire to prove which one is better.
So yes the AmigaOne X1000 is slower than a mac mini. Oh and I forgot it's an overpriced piece of junk...same goes for the SAMs, it won't matter what is produced there will always be something better and faster.
ACube makes a dual core SAM..."but my Apple quad is way faster..."
OK we got it...
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The poor performance of the PA6T could shed new light on the whole ISA shift affair by Apple. I mean, the PA6T was (inofficially) the scheduled successor of the 744x in Apple's laptops. But it performs rather worse. Not well suited for a 7447A successor laptop. ibm hat no fitting offerings for Apple and Freescale's 86xx were also not the huge step forward. No wonder why Apple looked elsewhere eventually.
But okay, Apple would have had one huge advantage over AOS4 and the X1000, tOS X has SMP support, so a Powerbook PA6T would have benefited quite a lot from the 2nd core.
Anyway, from those historical what-if games I would like to see an benchmark between a PA6T and 8641D based system. It seems to me as if Freescale's chip would have been the better choice eventually. A shame it was not used in a GP computer back when it was current.
I spent a lot of time working with the MPC8640/8641 (I still have two in my parts bins).
But as the older G4s clock as high or higher AND used Macs are cheap, the 86XXs didn't look like a viable alternative.
And the PA6T should be able to clock higher than either the G4s or the MPCs.
Right now, I'm looking forward to the T5040 (and, if offered, T5010 and T5020).
Not quite as nice PCIe support (as the PA6T), but it should perform slightly better.
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Linux on my dual core is better than MOS and old Apple machines.
But that's not really the point, is it?
You are right, bringing in Linux into a comparison of "Amiga" operating systems would be pointless. The point (and what this is about) is comparing "Amiga" options...
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The 8640 would definitely had been an option. It is a rather expensive ship, but still way cheaper than teh PA6T according to some AEon information which was about 500 US$ for each PA6T.
Plus Freescale is really helpful, they are still intersted to get their products out to the wild (genesi had and have a good support by them), other than PA Semi which is a company swallowed by Apple.
The 8640 has one or two e600 cores (aka g4) as known from the 7447A (Mac mini) or 7448 (some 3rd party cpu cards for Powermac G4). But it has a fast bus. Well, not as fast as the PA6T bus, but still quite fast, RAM interface is 600MHz DDR2, FSB is 200MHz (PA6T RAM interface is 1066MHz DDR, FSB is 233MHz).
But the difference of system performance between a PA6T and 8640D systen is probably only little. 8640D has the big advanatge of a proven and known core and a company behind it supporting it still actively. I was always in favor of the 86xx chips.
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You are right, bringing in Linux into a comparison of "Amiga" operating systems would be pointless. The point (and what this is about) is comparing "Amiga" options...
It's not pointless for X1000 owners, after all Linux is the only way they can take advantage of the hardware built onto their machines.
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...there are no original MOS machines...
Pegasos I and II.
Perhaps you mean there is no new MorphOS specific machine available
...my Win 7/Linux on my quad core 4.8GHz pc is faster than your Linux box.
And my 3.6 GHz Quad core PC (while slower then yours) would also be faster, but that isn't the point.
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Also, to be fair, the PA6T is a very nice Soc with great PCIe support.
Would have made more sense if they hadn't sacrificed some of that feature to the XMOS chip, but instead used it for real PCIe...
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Iggy:
We are agreeing on these issues pretty much anyway. The 86xx would have been nice a few years ago. While I still think the 8610 would still be acceptable for a very compact and cost sensitive system (I suggested it as better alternative to Acubes choices in several threads for some years already), the 8640 is no longer a vialble path to follow, since the T50x0 is soon to arrive and will leave the 8640 ways beyond.
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Pegasos I and II.
Perhaps you mean there is no new MorphOS specific machine available
Plus Efika5200B. A shame it came with too little RAM and such a slow ide. But still a nice tiny board for little money ($99) a few years ago.
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@Iggy
>>Pegasos I and II.
>>Perhaps you mean there is no new MorphOS specific machine available
Yes that is what I meant.
>>And my 3.6 GHz Quad core PC (while slower then yours) would also be faster, but that isn't the point.
It is exactly the point. We are comparing different products designed for different Operating Systems, and there are at least three threads which have been started trying to underline exactly what I said above.
So I am saying MOS is good and OS4 is crap, old Apple machine is better than new X1000, because this is exactly what these threads are about.
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You are right, bringing in Linux into a comparison of "Amiga" operating systems would be pointless. The point (and what this is about) is comparing "Amiga" options...
Throw amiWM on there and its as much amiga as anything else these days. Whether an app runs transparently or in emulation is not really relevant, since both are blazing fast nowadays anyways, and just about every 68K app has long since been surpassed by newer alternatives. (and in many cases, you have to. I love wordworth and final writer but they just aren't any competition to libreoffice if I actually need to interact with the rest of the world).
I have an amiga on my desk. It was made by Commodore in 1992. It has better compatibility, has wireless internet and didn't cost me a billion dollars.
All this bitching about the "NG" options might have made some sense in 1996. It was cute in 1999. In 2011, it's absurd.
We're arguing about whether it's better to pay huge sums of money for new hardware or scavenge ebay for old discarded apple computers?
And what's worse, we're seriously holding one of those options or the other up as a sound decision so we can deride the opposition?
Why would anyone that isn't bat**** insane ever invest here?
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The 8640 would definitely had been an option. It is a rather expensive ship, but still way cheaper than teh PA6T according to some AEon information which was about 500 US$ for each PA6T.
Can you provide a link to that information? $500 for a CPU (particularly one designed for embedded systems) is farkin' ridiculous, that's what P3s cost new in 1999. Hope they didn't pay that kind of cash for all the parts...
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@Iggy
>>Pegasos I and II.
>>Perhaps you mean there is no new MorphOS specific machine available
Yes that is what I meant.
>>And my 3.6 GHz Quad core PC (while slower then yours) would also be faster, but that isn't the point.
It is exactly the point. We are comparing different products designed for different Operating Systems, and there are at least three threads which have been started trying to underline exactly what I said above.
So I am saying MOS is good and OS4 is crap, old Apple machine is better than new X1000, because this is exactly what these threads are about.
Ah, gotcha.
While I'm impressed with the X1000, I don't understand the logic in producing it.
Zylesea, myself, and other looked into current PPCs awhile ago and came to a similar conclusion.
While they're attractive products, the cost of producing a small run of PPC based systems is way too high (believe it or not, I don't think Aeon is overpricing their system - it really cost a lot to produce).
So when the MOS development team decided to support Macs, I shelved the PPC projects.
I doesn't make sense to rely on expensive custom hardware when existing low cost hardware (that can perform as well) is available.
The funny thing is, I was talking to Varisys about an MPC8641/8640 based board with an ATI SB600 Southbridge before it was announced that they had designed the X1000 (which uses the same Southbridge).
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Can you provide a link to that information? $500 for a CPU (particularly one designed for embedded systems) is farkin' ridiculous, that's what P3s cost new in 1999. Hope they didn't pay that kind of cash for all the parts...
I wouldn't know.
I got mine free
Freescale, like Motorola before them, has great developer support.
And I don't think that, in volume, the processors would be that expensive.
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@TheDaddy
So I am saying MOS is good and OS4 is crap, old Apple machine is better than new X1000, because this is exactly what these threads are about.
Imho you are wrong, as all that threads about founding of truth. If used and old macs can be faster in some areas than x1000, then why not say that ? We should know truth, and i very intersting in truth.
As you can see, on some benchmarks (expectually memory ones), x1000 are cleary faster, and no one tryint to hide that details, everything just in sake of truth, to know, if it better than used macs, or not. So users will known what they will get, and they can think what will be better for them and in terms of speed, and in terms of price.
To add, i personally was in hope, that x1000 for sure will be better in all aspects in compare with the most faster macintosh (i remember all that hype about how cool and superios new cpu in x1000 will be), but seems by some reassons the only one benefits of the x1000 : speed of RAM. In others, its about the same as macmini 1.5/powermac1.8.
Its all just forces by results that x1000 in other tests on the same level (or even slower, except RAM speed) than macs, but if that truth, then what can we do with that ?:)
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@TheDaddy
Imho you are wrong, as all that threads about founding of truth. If used and old macs can be faster in some areas than x1000, then why not say that ? We should know truth, and i very intersting in truth.
As you can see, on some benchmarks (expectually memory ones), x1000 are cleary faster, and no one tryint to hide that details, everything just in sake of truth, to know, if it better than used macs, or not. So users will known what they will get, and they can think what will be better for them and in terms of speed, and in terms of price.
Good point. There is no fake or lie in this benchmarks. I thing most 'sensitive' ppl from whatever blue or red camp are takin' it too serious.
There is new Amiga related hardware, amigans ALWAYS were about benchmarking - since I remember so keep our tradition going :) If someone is mad that he spent 3k USD and his machine is sometimes slowe than old mac - sorry to hear that. If some one spent 3k USD and he doesn't give a **** that his machine is slower sometimes than old mac - fair play to him, he doesn't have to care.
Anyway - for all new X1000 owners - congrats :)
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Good points.
If I had any sense, I wouldn't have spent twice as much for my Mac CPU card as I did for my Phenom II X4 (which is more then twice as fast and has four times as many cores).
Who said we were sane?
If you can afford (and justify the purchase) of an X000, more power to you.
Somehow, I still feel more comfortable with that choice then AROS or WinUAE.
And, btw, you're not plugging a Radeon HD4650 into an old Mac (even if you could, there's no BIOS support).
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Can you provide a link to that information? $500 for a CPU (particularly one designed for embedded systems) is farkin' ridiculous, that's what P3s cost new in 1999. Hope they didn't pay that kind of cash for all the parts...
I quote from the exclusive interview with Trevor Dickinson from http://amigatronics.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/exclusive-to-amigatronics-28-questions-and-28-answers-with-trevor-dickinson-a-eon/
12.
What do you think is the solution for a market so little as Amiga? In my opinion, the price of AmigaOneX1000 could be reduced and that could help Amiga to grow faster again. Don´t you think so?
Unfortunately no. The AmigaOne X1000 is based on the PA Semi CPU. This component alone costs $500 and when you add in development costs and factor in the high cost of low volume manufacturing there is no way to reduce the sales price for the Amiga market. Also see my answer to question 11.
$500 for a PA6T.
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I quote from the exclusive interview with Trevor Dickinson from http://amigatronics.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/exclusive-to-amigatronics-28-questions-and-28-answers-with-trevor-dickinson-a-eon/
$500 for a PA6T.
Absolutely!
You're not going to get a good price buying a few hundred processors.
10,000, maybe.
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Yikes...
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:Iggy
>>While I'm impressed with the X1000, I don't understand the logic in producing it.
The logic is in Trevor's head. It's his money, his dream to create a new machine which would run OS4. I can't fault him for that, I have invested thousands of pounds during the last few years in a project that makes no sense at all and gives no economic returns. It's one of those things. I can't fault him for that.
:)
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no, i cant fault him either. but as long as logic behind that is only within his head, none is going to drag me behind such a project. anyway, daddy, i dont think you will be ever able to afford this piece, as you always are complaining about your bad finances, then all your argument must be taken with a benefit of doubt, im afraid.
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Plus Efika5200B. A shame it came with too little RAM and such a slow ide. But still a nice tiny board for little money ($99) a few years ago.
True, but to be fair, the Efika 5200B was merely one step olong the way towards what later became LimePC...
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:Iggy
>>While I'm impressed with the X1000, I don't understand the logic in producing it.
The logic is in Trevor's head. It's his money, his dream to create a new machine which would run OS4. I can't fault him for that, I have invested thousands of pounds during the last few years in a project that makes no sense at all and gives no economic returns. It's one of those things. I can't fault him for that.
:)
Since Trevor did not choose any of the hardware components for the X1000 and left it up to Hyperion and the OS4 developers to choose what they wanted (plus what ever the Varisys engineers talked them into adding), I don't see how anyone can fault Trevor for anything.
Maybe they can fault him for not getting more opinions before jumping in with both feet as the saying goes, but I applaud Trevor for sticking with this project and seeing it through to it's successful production and sales. It must have been very clear to him early in the process that he was never going to make a profit from the project, and would not even break even and recoup his $200,000+ investment from the number of sales that will eventually be produced from the X1000. Still, with all of this going on, he retains his enthusiasm and is moving forward exploring new designs and possibilities for producing even more new hardware to run OS4 on and possibly AROS PPC and MorphOS too. My hat remains off to Trevor!
With all the attention being given to benchmarks (mostly by people that admittedly would never be interested in buying an X1000), it will be interesting to see how fast the next production run of X1000 computers sells out. I believe the First Contact production run sold out in less than 36 hours, which was amazing.
It would be nice to see some engineer, or software guy from Varisys comment on the benchmarks being reported for the X1000. They must have done some benchmark testing of their own during the testing phase of this system.
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@kas1e
>>Imho you are wrong
In my opinion I am not.
>>as all that threads about founding of truth. If used and old macs can be faster in some areas than x1000, then why not say that ? We should know truth, and i very intersting in truth.
Truth? How are you going to prove the truth? Can an old mac run OS4? No. It's like for like. But even IF you found the truth what would you do with it? Fry it with bacon? It still makes no sense to find out that the X1000 is a couple of seconds slower than a mac mini, at the end of the day who the hell cares? Surely not the people who are going to buy the machine to run OS4.
Because the X1000 was created to run OS4 and to OS4 users it is the fastest machine the can get, that is the real substance of it all. I can't run OS4 on a mac so I don't give a damn about the PPC Mac I have in the garage gathering dust. If I could run on it and it was faster than the X1000 then obviously I'd prefer using a faster machine. But here we are proposing benchmarks which have nothing to do with OS4 and I run OS4. I hope it's clear.
Answer me this:
I run OS4 on a SAM440ep and it's quite satisfying and fun to use and it's the slowest one (666MHz).
I'd like more power, my choices are:
SAM460ex and X1000 which without any doubt will double, if not more, the speed and the experience of OS4.
Can I run OS4 on "faster" machines?
Me coming from a SAM440ep. Answer? No, end of story. :)
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no, i cant fault him either. but as long as logic behind that is only within his head, none is going to drag me behind such a project. anyway, daddy, i dont think you will be ever able to afford this piece, as you always are complaining about your bad finances, then all your argument must be taken with a benefit of doubt, im afraid.
I don't complain about my bad finances, who told you that? My bank manager? I just say that to carry on with my projects I have to sell stuff on ebay, something completely different.
I have bought a SAM440ep when it was £550 and a SAM440 Flex at £700 and planning on getting a SAM460ex and a X1000. I also bought several expanded Amigas, 1200 PPC with Mediators etc..etc...
So you score no point there I am afraid... :)
Good try though...
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@amigadave
Exactly. I totally I agree with you. This is an OS4 machine, for OS4 users is the DREAM machine, like the A4000 was for A500 users.
This is what people running these benchmark threads fail or pretend to understand.
I can't care less if an old Apple G4 runs circles around the X1000 and the 460ex, I can't run OS4 on the mac. I have a PPC 1.8GHz iMac in the garage, been there 12-18 months?
If I could run OS4 on it then brilliant, but I can't so the obvious choice is the 460ex or X1000, period.
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@kas1e
Because the X1000 was created to run OS4 and to OS4 users it is the fastest machine the can get, that is the real substance of it all. I can't run OS4 on a mac so I don't give a damn about the PPC Mac I have in the garage gathering dust. If I could run on it and it was faster than the X1000 then obviously I'd prefer using a faster machine. But here we are proposing benchmarks which have nothing to do with OS4 and I run OS4. I hope it's clear.
The only relevance I can see in these tests is that they raise the old question "why did Hyperion abandon porting OS4 to the G4 MacMini (and then other G4 Mac hardware like MorphOS did) and provide OS4 users with cheap, easily found systems to run OS4 on?" It can't be because MorphOS was already going down that path, as after the decision to not support the G4 MacMini was announced, support for the Peg2 was released.
I am happy that I have purchased my X1000 and it will arrive next week, but there are many OS4 users (and probably potential OS4 users too) that cannot afford an X1000 and might not be able to afford a SAM that could easily afford a G4 MacMini, or other G4 Mac hardware, if only Hyperion would port OS4 to such hardware.
I know that the soon to be released Netbook will fill the low price OS4 problem with hardware, but it will probably be as slow, or slower than the current SAM hardware and can't compete with the power of the used G4 Mac's.
So, Hyperion, please reconsider porting OS4 to G4 Mac systems. It can only help grow your user base and increase your sales of OS4. More users means the possibility of more developers too. Please port OS4 to G4 Mac hardware for people that can't afford to buy new OS4 hardware but want the speed shown in the benchmarks being presented in these many threads.
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David, Daddy,
I wholly agree with you both.
I spent months poring over MPC8641, ULi 1541 and ATI SB600 data sheets.
I even started to enter initial information into some design software I have.
All the while I knew that any system based on what I was working on would be expensive to produce, difficult to sell and support, and have a very limited market.
And even after I'd given up on the idea, I found it tempting.
So I really DO understand Treavor.
And I admire Aeon's desicision on who to source the design to.
Varisys designers pointed me to the Qorlq line when I was still investigating the 86XX processors. They are some very knowledgeable people and I, for one, never doubted that the X1000 would get produced.
But I think we all have to admit this is a vanity project, not a sensible business venture (and I still envy them).
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at the end of the day who the hell cares?
All those ppl who want to have the fastest Amiga ever. While I am not a big fan of OS4 myself even I would have considered an X1000 if it were really fast and giving me a big computing power benefit over what have already. Well, it doesn't. I think that's highly interesting and valuable information. Saves me $3000 at the end of the day.
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Has anyone did any benchmarks yet with Linux running on both cores?
It would be interesting to see the possible future Potential with SMP support for OS4x.
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I know that the soon to be released Netbook will fill the low price OS4 problem with hardware.
Do you really believe that netbook will come soon? I have my concerns on this. No public demonstration, nothing except the talk at Amiwest. And confronted with the question whether it will be a THTF/MTC 5121 based design or not only silence. It will. And hence it will come with all the 5121 weaknesses.
SSolie not even sure about the screen size is telling how serious that whole thing is. It is just a placeholder for "oh yes, we have a laptop, too", telling the crowd between the lines not to buy an "old crappy Powerbook" to run MorphOS on it.
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I remember the days, weeks, months, where you were discussing the possibility of producing a new PPC motherboard design Jim. I also remember that the cost of such a project always was a big factor preventing it from happening or going forward.
Trevor just said (not a direct quote, but I am guessing he said something like this) "to hell with how much it is going to cost, we need a new, more powerful Amiga(One)". Then he made it happen, and without him being a hardware engineer he had to depend on others to choose which parts to use.
Edit: @zylesea, "Soon" is a relative term and in Amigaland can mean a lot of different things. If it arrives this year, it will be soon, compared to usual timelines from some people for projects. If it arrives at all, it will be a welcome addition (by many OS4 users) and the first portable PPC AmigaOne system. I also suspect that the announcement of the OS4 Netbook from Hyperion was not much more than a tactic from Hyperion to delay users from getting a G4 PowerBook and trying MorphOS, but I don't blame them or have any ill will toward them if that is the true reason for the timing of their announcement, as long as they deliver a product to the Amiga community to back up the announcement. Nothing worse than companies that disappoint Amiga users by announcing something and then not delivering on their announcement. It has hurt the community too many times in the past. I may not like some things about Hyperion, but at least they have delivered most things they have announced, even if they have been late. I think Hyperion's timing for announcements of products or features has been terrible and they should have learned by now to NOT announce something until it is closer to being finished, but that is just my preference and some people would rather know what direction Hyperion is going in, no matter how long it takes them to get there, instead of waiting for information just a few weeks before it is in the hands of the buyers.
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Has anyone did any benchmarks yet with Linux running on both cores?
It would be interesting to see the possible future Potential with SMP support for OS4x.
Well for a perfectly symmetrically balanced system you mag gain a speed increase of the factor lim 2. In evryday usage it depends quite a lot. Take that lame test. alme itself is nt multithreaded, but a nice frontend can just launch several instances of lame. On a system more or less idle execpt doing the lame encoding this could really yield to a speed increase of nearly the factor of 2. Thing is, you need an SMP system to benefit from the 2 cores in a balanced way, or an AMP system with quite some apps written to use the 2nd core if available.
SMP is out of question for OS4 as long as a high backward compability will not get discarded, AMP is rather easy possible, but requires Applications to support that (also possible, but they don't com efrom above like the Manna). I *highly doubt* AmigaOS 4.x will benefit seriously from the 2nd core before 2014.
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So, Hyperion, please reconsider porting OS4 to G4 Mac systems. It can only help grow your user base and increase your sales of OS4. More users means the possibility of more developers too. Please port OS4 to G4 Mac hardware for people that can't afford to buy new OS4 hardware but want the speed shown in the benchmarks being presented in these many threads.
This will never happen, reason?
Well if hyperion ports OS4.x to mac G4 systems they will undermine the sale of X1000 and sam460. Why use a lot of money on a SAM or x1000, when they can buy a mac systms for less then nothing and get the same or better speed?
Only a minor group will use that amount on money just to get "new system" or the fpga chip on x1000.
Well, this is my opinion.
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And, btw, you're not plugging a Radeon HD4650 into an old Mac (even if you could, there's no BIOS support).
A very good point. Graphics cards are doing a lot of work these days and support for them is a very relevant point when considering these systems against each other.
Come to think of it, let's see a benchmark using FPS framerates with the best graphics card each system supports.
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This will never happen, reason?
Well if hyperion ports OS4.x to mac G4 systems they will undermine the sale of X1000 and sam460. Why use a lot of money on a SAM or x1000, when they can buy a mac systms for less then nothing and get the same or better speed?
Only a minor group will use that amount on money just to get "new system" or the fpga chip on x1000.
Well, this is my opinion.
First, it is the SAM440ep, 440flex and 460ex that have a fpga chip on their motherboards, not the X1000, which has an XCORE chip which is different than a fpga.
Unless Hyperion is getting a kick-back of some of the money made for each X1000, or SAM sale, besides the OEM license fee for OS4.x being included in the sale, which I don't think is the case, why would they care if cheaper alternatives for OS4.x hardware were available? They ported OS4.x to the Pegasos2, which can be found for sale used cheaper than any SAM system and the Pegasos2 is faster than any of the SAM's (in most ways, if not all tests, IIRC).
I don't think I have ever read any reasons from Hyperion that make any sense for why they did not, and continue to not provide a port of OS4.x to any of the G4 Mac models. Does anyone outside Hyperion know the answer for certain? I would really like to know. It does not make any sense for the MorphOS Dev. Team to port MorphOS to the X1000 or any of the SAM hardware, but there are a lot of Amiga users that would like to be able to run both OS4.x and MorphOS (and even AROS PPC) on the same computer and would buy a license for OS4, if only Hyperion would port OS4 to one of the better G4 Mac models. Hyperion has no obligation to ACube, or A-Eon to protect their sales by not doing a port of OS4.x to any G4 Mac models. Porting to a G4 Mac would probably have a negative impact on SAM sales, but probably not as much as you would think, as some buyers still just want a new computer opposed to used gear. The X1000 is unique and would be negatively affected even less than the SAM's by a port of OS4 to any G4 Mac hardware. With the limited supply and high cost of the PA6T CPU's, it is not known how many X1000's Trevor and AmigaKit plan on producing, so by the time it would take Hyperion to do a port of OS4 to any G4 Mac model, it is possible that A-Eon might be done producing X1000's by then and have moved on to a different design. I wish for nothing but success for Trevor and Matthew Leaman of AmigaKit in their sales of X1000's and any future designs, but for the health and growth of OS4, I see a port of OS4 to G4 Mac computers as a good thing. I apologize to Trevor and Matthew if my views are harmful to any present of future plans for hardware that they have. As a matter of fact, Hyperion's own plans for the PPC Netbook for OS4.x at a price between $300 to $500 is just as big a threat, if not more so, than a port to used G4 Mac hardware. Many OS4 users have already stated that they do not want used hardware and prefer to spend more on new hardware with a warranty, but many more of them would be interested in a G4 Mac port to obtain cheap AND fast OS4 hardware.
It is hard to tell just how many new OS4 licenses would be sold if Hyperion ported OS4 to one or more G4 Mac model, but the price of entry into the world of using OS4 has definitely been a limiting factor for many potential OS4 users in the past, and will continue to be that way until the day the $300 to $500 Netbook is released. Even then, a $0 to $300 G4 Mac will still be cheaper and much faster option that will appeal to many potential OS4 buyers, with an added benefit (for some that see it as a benefit) is the ability to run both OS4 and MorphOS on the same computer and not need two different systems if you are interested in both PPC NG Amiga systems.
Not porting OS4 to any G4 Mac hardware has always puzzled me. Since I own several G4 Mac's, I would like to see Hyperion port OS4 to one or more of them in the future (but not until they are finished optimizing OS4.2 for the X1000 and other already supported AmigaOne systems and completing work on porting to their Netbook (even though I have no plans to purchase a Netbook, or any other currently supported OS4 system).
Some people have an aversion to any Apple products, but the number of current and former Amiga users who like and use Apple products far outnumbers the few that have Apple phobia.
My interest is growing the Amiga community as large as possible, as fast as possible. Including trying to win back as many developers as possible. We need tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of users again, if that will ever be possible? How we get there is not my primary concern. I just want more users and more developers and I include OS4.x, AROS, MorphOS and AmigaOS3.x on original Amigas and FPGA devices as well in my definition of what the Amiga community is.
Time to go back to lurking mode.
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Understanding Hyperion is not so hard. Just consider that they produce OS4 for the G4, Well that is by definition a niche, the market will never expand beyond the amount of G4s still in working order. A new machine has an infinite amount of market expansion available by comparison.
Now you can argue this any way you damn well like but if your trying to get people to part with capital to support you, that's as much as they needed to read before choosing which way to go. Whatever your national equivalent of Dragons Den* is should have taught you that. Of course, once down the new machine route you can't compete with yourself by producing OS4 for the G4 later either.
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragons'_Den#Versions
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Thank God this thread has gotten back to a more civil discourse (instead of the "mine's better than yours" rut).
Each NG OS and its hardware offers specific advantages relative to one another.
The fact that there are this many choices is a testament to how much interest remains in the Amiga platform.
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A very good point. Graphics cards are doing a lot of work these days and support for them is a very relevant point when considering these systems against each other.
Come to think of it, let's see a benchmark using FPS framerates with the best graphics card each system supports.
Well, nothing new to see here, MorphOS still crushes AmigaOS4 in this department. In fact, the MPlayer video decoding benchmark deliberately excluded displaying the decoded video, as this would have seriously crippled the X1000 result (the Radeon HD driver doesn't yet support overlay).
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Wow, my 4 year old budget amithlon box, running an emulated 68k cpu gets better rc5-72 results than A1X1000. Didnt expect that. I'll have to try the other benchmarks floating around and see how they compare.
Slight sidebar, but I was surprised to see that '060 versions not only work on the emulated '040 cpu core of amithlon, but also works faster than '040 versions.
Might have to try to compile lame and dnetc for amithlon x86 as well.
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Understanding Hyperion is not so hard. Just consider that they produce OS4 for the G4, Well that is by definition a niche, the market will never expand beyond the amount of G4s still in working order. A new machine has an infinite amount of market expansion available by comparison.
The amount of available used G4 Mac computers that are still in "working order" is in the millions, and far more by orders of magnitude than will ever be produced by ACube, or A-Eon, or anyone else, since producing PPC desktop motherboards from anyone else is about non-existent these days. Also, the niche of Amiga OS4 users has great potential to grow several times larger than it currently is today, under the right circumstances. Will it happen? I don't know, but there certainly were hundreds of thousands of Amiga users in the not too distant past that are potential new users for the niche OS4 community of today and tomorrow. Why not do everything possible to try to get more of them to return?
Now you can argue this any way you damn well like but if your trying to get people to part with capital to support you, that's as much as they needed to read before choosing which way to go. Whatever your national equivalent of Dragons Den* is should have taught you that.
Huh? If you want people to spend money to return to using any kind of Amiga experience then the rules of giving them the most for their money still apply. There are some that want only new computers, there are some that hate Apple and will never buy any of it, and then there are the rest that buying a used G4 Mac makes perfect sense to run OS4 on and if you want to have as many OS4 users as possible, you should try to satisfy all of the three groups and specially the largest of the three groups, which is probably the group that wants the best performance per dollar/pound/euro and would be interested in buying OS4.x for a G4 Mac computer.
Of course, once down the new machine route you can't compete with yourself by producing OS4 for the G4 later either.
Not true, even Hyperion has ported to used G4 computer AFTER they had already ported OS4 to the SAM440ep. IIRC, the port to the Peg2 came after the port to the SAM440ep. There is no valid reason to not port OS4.x to used G4 Mac computers that I can see. It will only result in more sales for Hyperion and more OS4 users in total.
It could hurt ACube SAM sales and might hurt A-Eon's sales of the X1000 (but I doubt it because by the time Hyperion could finish a port of OS4 to any G4 Mac model, I doubt A-Eon will still be producing X1000's due to the cost and difficulty in obtaining PA6T CPU's, but I could be wrong).
What is more important to the OS4 users, having more fast and cheap hardware to tempt new users and developers with to join the party, or supporting ACube & A-Eon by only having the option to use OS4 on more expensive custom hardware?
I want to support OS4 hardware companies too, but not at the expense of limiting the community in it's attempt to gain more users and developers.
Maybe after a port to used G4 Mac models the community as a whole could concentrate more on getting more developers and software and worry less about what the future of OS4 hardware is for a while (but still keep exploring all different possibilities for future hardware to move to when all existing hardware starts to fail. I plan on using my X1000 for the next 20 years:) )
Edit: After further thought, my request for Hyperion to port OS4 to G4 Mac hardware will surely hurt A-Eon's future chances for any other hardware designs. I really like Trevor and want him to succeed, but I still think the best thing for the OS4 users and developers would be to provide a port of OS4 to one or more G4 Mac models. So, who does Hyperion support, the users, or the hardware designers/suppliers? Tough choice.
Since I have already purchased my X1000, it is easy for me to suggest that the porting to G4 Macs is the better choice, now that I have all that I need for the next many years. Others might resent this idea as they want their own X1000, or some later new design, and so do not want Hyperion to port OS4 to any G4 Mac's if that means that future OS4 custom hardware might then get canceled.
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Wow, my 4 year old budget amithlon box, running an emulated 68k cpu gets better rc5-72 results than A1X1000. Didnt expect that. I'll have to try the other benchmarks floating around and see how they compare.
I was wondering when this one was going to come up :laugh1:. It is possible to run more modern x86 boards now with the new kernel and its drivers. Not a perfect Amiga solution but Amithlon is still a damn interesting concept even after all these years. I need to get that 3Ghz Xeon cranked up in this kernel4 capable Asus board I have. At any rate, it would be interesting to see some similar performance comparisons (if possible) using Amithlon.
As for the published performance data in this thread, it is clear what will happen on my end. And that is registering a nice G4 laptop when 3.0 comes out. Power, portability, stability. I'm in on that deal. I see complaints about old Mac garbage, etc... Well that old garbage is still good, cheap, and running well against other PPC by the looks of it. The selection of Mac hardware by MOS developers was obviously a shrewd one. The resulting amount of supported hardware should speak for itself. And it will only get better. If Amiga developers were only 1/2 as shrewd, they would port over to Mac as soon as possible.
Regarding the new X1000 board, well....'best of luck to ya'.
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.....Some people have an aversion to any Apple products,...."Apple phobia"....
cough...raises hand:cool:
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All those ppl who want to have the fastest Amiga ever. While I am not a big fan of OS4 myself even I would have considered an X1000 if it were really fast and giving me a big computing power benefit over what have already. Well, it doesn't. I think that's highly interesting and valuable information. Saves me $3000 at the end of the day.
I think people who want the fastest Amiga ever will still buy it because as you say it is the fastest Amiga ever and a few seconds difference here and there won't change their mind.
So you are really saying that because the X1000 looks like it "might" be slightly slower than a mac you won't be buying it? Also again this makes no sense as you'll only be using it to run OS4 so at this precise moment it's the fastest OS4 machine, if you want the fastest MOS machine you get a mac.
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So you are really saying that because the X1000 looks like it "might" be slightly slower than a mac you won't be buying it? Also again this makes no sense as you'll only be using it to run OS4 so at this precise moment it's the fastest OS4 machine, if you want the fastest MOS machine you get a mac.
No. It's the other way around. Because the X1000 is not significantly faster than what I have already it it totally pointless and uninteresting for me.
If it were significantly faster I might have considered one machine. But with those results - no way!
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If AmigaOS 4 ever gets ported to the Mac, it will be doomed to stay on old hardware forever, as the market for new machines would be obliterated- which is exactly what they do not want.
AmigaOS on Mac would be a big mistake IMHO. We should be encouraging new AOS capable machines, not destroying them.
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No. It's the other way around. Because the X1000 is not significantly faster than what I have already it it totally pointless and uninteresting for me.
If it were significantly faster I might have considered one machine. But with those results - no way!
What have you got?
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If AmigaOS 4 ever gets ported to the Mac, it will be doomed to stay on old hardware forever, as the market for new machines would be obliterated- which is exactly what they do not want.
AmigaOS on Mac would be a big mistake IMHO. We should be encouraging new AOS capable machines, not destroying them.
As they say +1 :)
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@TheDaddy
Well, to answer on questin what i will do with Truth, i can say you the whol story:
When x1000 was announcement with it madness price, i was somehow sure, that because of that price, it will kick all the maconitoshes right in the ass, and, because of that i found logical to build new platforms, in compare with make a port to good old macs.
Now, because of benchmarks, i see, that Macs are even faster in almost all the areas, except the ram speed area. So, what i will do with that truth when i know that overpriced HW which will run amigaos4, are slower than macintosh with morphos ? I will do that: when i will for real feel that i want something new and cool, i will think twice to buy a mac with morphos, or x1000 with aos4.
Sure, x1000 still interesting and fast, and it give you ability to run os4 and put radeonhd in it (let's skip all those coming soon smp , xena/xorro and co) , but in current stage, with comparing by benchmarks with tests, the price for the x1000 can be something like 1800-2000usd, and then, it can be adequate to the speed: i.e. because its new hw, because its one of fastetst with ppc cpu/os is amiga world, and because you can put any cards in it.
PS. Did anyone want to sale x1000 mb + cpu for 1000$ ? I will be intersted in :)
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What have you got?
Among other hardware there is a Mac mini G4 1500, a Powerbook 1.67 is on the shopping list. And to avoid your next respond "but this s not Amiga". Indeed it is not called Amiga and OS4 doesn't run on it. But MorphOS. Well and if you refuse to see why MorphOS s amigaish as OS4 except the tademark and some antique code snippets I give you a link to my statemet what MorphOS is: http://via.i-networx.de/wim.htm
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@kas1e
>>When x1000 was announcement with it madness price, i was somehow sure, that because of that price, it will kick all the maconitoshes right in the ass
As you know that is not always the case. See supercars for example. There are some costing £1.5 million and they are not that much faster than a £150,000 supercar. It costs so much because the production is in small quantities (I know this based on personal experience). Surely it could have been cheaper I would have not chosen Xena, Xorro etc...to keep the price down and maybe a different cpu but it's still remains a good board. Maybe one day someone will harness the "power" of Xorro who knows.
>>compare with make a port to good old macs.
But this is a mistake I think. You are comparing just that, old macs, which aren't produced any more running a different OS. Weird!
>>Now, because of benchmarks, i see, that Macs are even faster in almost all the areas, except the ram speed area. So, what i will do with that truth when i know that overpriced HW which will run amigaos4, are slower than macintosh with morphos ? I will do that: when i will for real feel that i want something new and cool, i will think twice to buy a mac with morphos, or x1000 with aos4.
But you can say that of everything else. If you REALLY want to run OS4 on the fastest hardware then at the moment the X1000 is the fastest hardware, if you want to run MOS then an old mac G4 will do the job. It depends on what you want to run.
I enjoy using OS4 so for me the X1000 IS the fastest machine which will guarantee the fastest OS4 results.
If ACube came out with a mid solution at a good price then I'd buy that. If they decided to go faster than the X1000 then as an OS4 user I'd buy that.
I don't spend time looking at OSX or Win 7 or Linux and thinking: "oh look how fast they run on their quad cpus" it's a waste of time, they are faster in some areas but they are not OS4, I hope it's clear. If I were a MOS user I'd look at the fastest mac G4 solution, I wouldn't care less about the X1000 as it doesn't run MOS unless I wanted to do some child play taunting the "opposition", na na na na na! :)
Also look at how fast it sold out. Someone is interested in it and why? To run OS 4 and Debian Linux in dual boot. Trevor says a new batch is going to be produced soon, I bet it'll sell fast, no matter how many threads and topics are raised about it being slower than an old mac. Guaranteed.
If one can afford it and want OS4 and Linux then save the cash and buy it otherwise it's just a sign that we are here to discredit a product for the hell of it.
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Among other hardware there is a Mac mini G4 1500, a Powerbook 1.67 is on the shopping list. And to avoid your next respond "but this s not Amiga". Indeed it is not called Amiga and OS4 doesn't run on it. But MorphOS. Well and if you refuse to see why MorphOS s amigaish as OS4 except the tademark and some antique code snippets I give you a link to my statemet what MorphOS is: http://via.i-networx.de/wim.htm
I rest my case...;)
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If AmigaOS 4 ever gets ported to the Mac, it will be doomed to stay on old hardware forever, as the market for new machines would be obliterated- which is exactly what they do not want.
AmigaOS on Mac would be a big mistake IMHO. We should be encouraging new AOS capable machines, not destroying them.
In my opinion it is good that OS4 is hardware focused rather than software focused. More they invest money to new hardware designs more happier I get. This is Win-Win to me, and to you ;)
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@TheDaddy
If one can afford it and want OS4 and Linux then save the cash and buy it otherwise it's just a sign that we are here to discredit a product for the hell of it.
Imho no. We all there in benchmark threads not because we want discredit or credit any kind of product. I, as end user not so care in credits or discredits. We just comparing the HW available for aos4 and for mos. There is nothing bad or wrong to say truth if something is slow, the same as there is nothing bad or wrong to say truth if something is fast.
For now its clear, that the real pluse of x1000 : the speed of working with memory. No one hide it, and everyone found it good. But in other areas its on the same level as old macs (sometime a bit better, like with case of mplayer, sometime worse, like in case with lames and dcnet benchs).
Potential users should know the truth. That all about it. Nothing about discredit or credit. Pure technical interest in case of found the truth and so everyone should know what faster, what slower, where, what pluses and minuses, to make the final and pragmatic decission when user will in interest to make a choice.
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And the truth is quite easy. The x1000 is the fastest AmigaOs machine there is. That wasn't hard. :afro:
Potential users should know the truth. That all about it. Nothing about discredit or credit. Pure technical interest in case of found the truth and so everyone should know what faster, what slower, where, what pluses and minuses, to make the final and pragmatic decission when user will in interest to make a choice.
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The amount of available used G4 Mac computers that are still in "working order" is in the millions, and far more by orders of magnitude than will ever be produced by ACube, or A-Eon, or anyone else, since producing PPC desktop motherboards from anyone else is about non-existent these days. Also, the niche of Amiga OS4 users has great potential to grow several times larger than it currently is today, under the right circumstances. Will it happen? I don't know, but there certainly were hundreds of thousands of Amiga users in the not too distant past that are potential new users for the niche OS4 community of today and tomorrow. Why not do everything possible to try to get more of them to return?
Huh? If you want people to spend money to return to using any kind of Amiga experience then the rules of giving them the most for their money still apply. There are some that want only new computers, there are some that hate Apple and will never buy any of it, and then there are the rest that buying a used G4 Mac makes perfect sense to run OS4 on and if you want to have as many OS4 users as possible, you should try to satisfy all of the three groups and specially the largest of the three groups, which is probably the group that wants the best performance per dollar/pound/euro and would be interested in buying OS4.x for a G4 Mac computer.
Not true, even Hyperion has ported to used G4 computer AFTER they had already ported OS4 to the SAM440ep. IIRC, the port to the Peg2 came after the port to the SAM440ep. There is no valid reason to not port OS4.x to used G4 Mac computers that I can see. It will only result in more sales for Hyperion and more OS4 users in total.
It could hurt ACube SAM sales and might hurt A-Eon's sales of the X1000 (but I doubt it because by the time Hyperion could finish a port of OS4 to any G4 Mac model, I doubt A-Eon will still be producing X1000's due to the cost and difficulty in obtaining PA6T CPU's, but I could be wrong).
What is more important to the OS4 users, having more fast and cheap hardware to tempt new users and developers with to join the party, or supporting ACube & A-Eon by only having the option to use OS4 on more expensive custom hardware?
I want to support OS4 hardware companies too, but not at the expense of limiting the community in it's attempt to gain more users and developers.
Maybe after a port to used G4 Mac models the community as a whole could concentrate more on getting more developers and software and worry less about what the future of OS4 hardware is for a while (but still keep exploring all different possibilities for future hardware to move to when all existing hardware starts to fail. I plan on using my X1000 for the next 20 years:) )
Edit: After further thought, my request for Hyperion to port OS4 to G4 Mac hardware will surely hurt A-Eon's future chances for any other hardware designs. I really like Trevor and want him to succeed, but I still think the best thing for the OS4 users and developers would be to provide a port of OS4 to one or more G4 Mac models. So, who does Hyperion support, the users, or the hardware designers/suppliers? Tough choice.
Since I have already purchased my X1000, it is easy for me to suggest that the porting to G4 Macs is the better choice, now that I have all that I need for the next many years. Others might resent this idea as they want their own X1000, or some later new design, and so do not want Hyperion to port OS4 to any G4 Mac's if that means that future OS4 custom hardware might then get canceled.
I know, I know, and yes I 've heard all those opinions before. I also agree with what you are saying. So now why don't you go to the bank and argue for a loan to finance your niche product versus a theoretically not niche product and see which one you can get the finance for. Now please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that anything you've said is wrong, your speaking good common sense and as I've said I do honestly agree but that is not how the cold heart of investment works. OS4 on a machine that someone else made, that is no longer manufactured, has about as much chance of outside founding as a company making replacement hands for vintage action man or GI Joe figures, they will see the product as a dead product and hence a financial dead end for them. Sadly you have to think like these people to understand the choices Hyperion made.
If it was my choice I would gave ported to ARM at the first chance I had and been done with it. That of course is a whole new story and it wasn't my decision to make so it didn't go that way.
Of course, MOS will be faced with having to break out of only supporting old powerpc hardware at some point too. Those old Macs will only last for so long.
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Well, nothing new to see here, MorphOS still crushes AmigaOS4 in this department. In fact, the MPlayer video decoding benchmark deliberately excluded displaying the decoded video, as this would have seriously crippled the X1000 result (the Radeon HD driver doesn't yet support overlay).
True for now, but in theory the X1000 could take a brand new PCIE card providing someone writes the drivers for it.
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Trevor just said (not a direct quote, but I am guessing he said something like this) "to hell with how much it is going to cost, we need a new, more powerful Amiga(One)".
I can't really understand how you can applaud something like this. To me it's just insane.
Think of a country like Ethiopia, suffering from drought, crop failure and famine. People are dying by starvation in thousands. They need something to eat to survive and develop as a people. If not, they will die.
Someone comes up with a plan to make cheap meatballs that would provide decent meals to the masses in the short to mid term (the Moana project) while you potentially could try to work something different out for the long term (probably a migration of the people to greener pastures, like x86 or ARM, where the people can survive and develop further).
But the Generals leading the country (Hyperion) decides that this is not a "worthy enough" solution for Ethiopia(TM), that Ethiopia(TM) is all about being different and better (in some weird, backwards way), that what's needed is a "special Ethiopian(TM) dish", and only this will save the Ethiopian people.
The people cheer, as they always do when the Generals have spoken (no matter what they say) at least the higher society AmigaWorld.net people, and in particular the Ethiopian Noble class at Amigans.net. Now the direction is set, the road is clear. Ehtiopia(TM) will rise once again and become a player on the global arena.
A couple of Ethiopian farmers, the Acube (those originally behind the "mass meatball solution"), develops a plan according to the Generals wishes. Instead of meatball (what's really "special" about meatballs anyway?) they decide to create a Gourmet Dish of Pork Chops (the Sam 440). The Generals cheer, the upper class society (AmigaWorld.net) cheer, the Nobles (Amigans.net) cheer even more. Finally the wait is over, finally Ethiopia(TM) has its special meal that will solve the famine and make the people grow back, both in volume and significance.
Some people however (quite a few actually), openly questions this strategy. They say "in times of famine, poverty and mass starvation, how on earth would the Ethiopians be helped by 'gourmet dishes' that only a few could afford?". But those people are aggressively fought by the Generals minions (the upper class society and nobles) on a broad scale. "Ethiopia has always been about the Gourmet way of eating" they say, but by aggressively using words like "Trolls" and "Negativity", often crying for the Secret Thought Police (moderators) to intervene; "How on earth could Ethiopia possibly rise to its former glory, when these trolls are allowed to spread negativity about our new Gourmet Dish?". And not seldom does the Secret Thought Police abide.
The problem for Ethiopia however, isn't "negativity". It's famine. What was needed was a nutritious dish with enough vitamins and proteins, that could be broadly accessible and easily obtainable. The "Gourmet Dish" that those Acube farmers provided, turned out to be pretty much on par with a carrot stew (the $129 Efika MX, actually even below that, because the Efika MX can actually do quite "meaty" things by clever integration of various on-chip "mini-dishes" that spices things up quite considerably, actually bringing it to a meatball level in many cases). But while the "Acube Gourmet Dish" in practice provides a plain carrot stew, it *costs* like a "Angus Beef Tenderloin" dish (Core-i7 gaming level computer), possibly more. This has the effect that it will neither provide enough nutrition for its consumers, nor will it have particularly many consumers in the first place. The famine continues, the people of Ethiopia continues to decrease in numbers.
After a while, the Acube farmers produces a new "Gourmet Dish", the "Pork Tenderloin" (Sam 460). This is a dish that, while it seems a bit more "luxurious" than the Pork Chops, it does have some rather strange oddities and quirks. Once again the debate about the Generals strategy arises, once again the Generals minions have to fight "negativity" and "trolls".
The "Pork Tenderloin" dish in most cases turns out to be slightly below the *older* of the meatball dishes out there (the Pegasos2), being "Gourmet" only in its price tag, that still puts it way out of reach for most people. The Ethiopian population continue to decrease.
Now one of the Generals himself (Ben Hermans) steps up to bring order to the famine situation. Since the General Strategy of course has been right all along, the problems could only be explained by the dishes not being luxurious enough for the Ethiopians taste! Together with the rich, upper class society member Trevor Dickinson, he comes up with the Über Gourmet dish "the special Beef Tenderloin". It is so special, that it actually has a "jewel" in the middle of the plate, made of glass, because "the first Ethiopian(TM) dishes was originally made with a custom jewel, Ethiopians simply loves the thought of a shiny custom jewel in the center of the dish, and a glass jewel will surely satisfy this need of shininess".
Once again the debate arose. Critics said "You can't make a Beef Tenderloin dish based on an old meatball recipe", and "there is no need for shiny jewels in the 21st century, it will only make things more expensive by making the dish a lot more complex, and it's not even really a jewel but a $20 piece of glass", and once again the Generals minions had to come out and fight the "trolls" spreading "negativity". They also seemed to have some kind of competition among themselves, inventing potential uses for the jewel, each idea seeming more narcotic inspired than the other, and almost all suggested a complete ignorance of what kind of jewel it actually was.
Now when it's released, it turns out to be a "Gourmet Dish" only in its price tag. It turns out to be slightly above the meatball dishes that has been around since half a decade ago (but being denied to the Ethiopian people by their Generals), while its price tag is equal to not one, not two, but three or even *four* "Angus Beef Tenderloin" (Core-i7 gaming level computer) dishes! And the jewel? Well, it just sits there in the middle of the plate, and nobody has no idea of how it will add to the taste or nutrition of the dish.
Will this make the Ethiopian population grow? Will it make Ethiopia(TM) more significant, and a player on the global arena? No of course not. The madness is obvious to everyone but the Generals, the Nobles, and the Upper Class Society members of Ethiopia. To everyone outside, both in Ethiopia and in the world as a whole, the madness behind the idea makes it a laughing stock. It can't even be called Ethiopia(TM), but is referred to as EthiopiaOne (or parasite marketing by the Generals using quotation marks: "Ethiopia").
The X1000 is madness, the Sam is madness, the whole mindset that OS4 "Amigans" has on expensive, custome made HW is madness, it's a shameful waste of resources and it will not bring the OS4 platform forward one single bit, rather the opposite.
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(The story continues: ;) )
Well there is another country, a neighbor to Ethiopia, a country called Kenya (MorphOS). This is a country very similar to Ethiopia, it has similar history, a similar background. It has a similar population, people enjoying the East African way of doing things, how East African stuff work, etc. These things may be frown upon by European and Northern Americans (Apple and Wintel) who indeed are at a completely different technological level than Africa. But the people living in Eastern Africa likes and appreciate what they have, for what it is, and they can always take a trip to Europe or USA if they want to, some (most perhaps) even works there, so they are very well aware of the differences.
Anyway, being neighbors, also Kenya suffered from the drought, crop failure and famine. They also have the same agricultural platform (the PPC) but the leaders in this country approached the problem in a completely different way. They thought "we need growth and development, but our agricultural platform makes this very difficult, what should we do?"
The answer was not to try to invent new gourmet dishes that only a few could afford and wouldn't really fill the stomach of those who could. No the answer was to look around to see what was already there for them to utilize.
It turned out that there were lots of possibilities to utilize various kinds of tasty and nutritious meatball dishes, that may be considered a bit out of date by European or US standards, but still a vast improvement to the East African meatballs (Pegasos2, A1) they had been living on until the crop failed and brought a starvation. They came up with a Mini meatball dish (Mac Mini) that was an extremely low footprint dish, but contained everything most people needs and wants, and could be measured to be up to 2x as powerful as the "old" meatball dishes. They came up with a big-plate meatball dish (Power Mac) that could be expandable, which can either be extremely low cost, or extremely performing (judged by meatball standards). They also came up with an even more low-cost dish that actually contained everything you need, including the plate, knife and fork (the eMac) that while being a bit bulky, it still performed a lot better than the old meatballs, and at an *incredible* price, practically for free (sometimes that really *is* the price). And now they are about to introduced a flat kind of meatball, a hamburger, that you will actually be able to carry with you and eat wherever you want (Power Book).
In Kenya, there is no starvation, everyone who wants to live there (if only as a hobby) can have very cheap and easily obtainable meatball dishes of various kinds. But most importantly, the difference between Ethiopia and Kenya seems to be that the Ethiopian leaders focus very much on the agricultural process (PPC is very important) and trying to create new dishes based on this (new custom made motherboards based on various PPC CPU's), while the Kenya leaders is more focused on perfecting the recipe's for the meatball dishes that's mainstream and cheap (developing and optimizing the OS and SW for the existing Mac PPC HW). At least in short term; the MorphOS 3.0 will introduce the "hamburger" (the portable Power Book) and will also mean a major leap in features and performance. Then in a mid term perspective, the meatball recipe's will be even more improved and perfected. And in the long term perspective, they will re-evaluate the whole agricultural infrastructure, which might mean a migration to greener pastures (x86 or ARM), which will definitely mean new dishes altogether, like *real* Beef Tenderloin, made on Angus, (instead of carrot stew with a Beef Tenderloin price tag).
If you look at MorphOS's growth graph over at morphzone.org, you will see how the graph got visibly steeper after the Mac HW support. The growth rate (that was constant both before and after the Mac HW) *increased* visibly due to this. People are migrating from Ethiopia to Kenya, and this is a fact. Most certainly because they like the East African ways, while wanting cheap but great meatball dishes instead of what the Ethiopian Generals can offer them.
With this in perspective, a bit "amusing" to actually see someone enjoying the benefits of Kenya paying the price tag of 3-4 Core-i7 systems, for an Ethiopian "Meatballs Plus" dish, to be able to say "I am an Ethiopian(TM)".
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Tl;dr
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But the Generals leading the country (Hyperion) decides that this is not a "worthy enough" solution for Ethiopia(TM), that Ethiopia(TM) is all about being different and better (in some weird, backwards way), that what's needed is a "special Ethiopian(TM) dish", and only this will save the Ethiopian people.
I enjoyed both of your posts. Very creative and well written. However, your facts are incorrect.
In the case of Moana, as well as the earlier attempt in 2004 when not only a port was suggested, but a source of h/w had been presented along with the case for the port...
It was Amiga Inc. who decided against both propositions.
source (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=33995&forum=33&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0)
Does your story have enough room for the additional characters? Heh.
#6
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dnetc RC5-72 on AMD HD5750: 725,256,214 keys/s
ca. 100€ => 7+ MKeys/s per EUR
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Wow!
takemehomegrandma.
Now that's a rant.
As I've said before, I don't think Treavor's investment was a sound business decision.
That said, I don't see the harm in it and I like the basic design of the X1000.
Is it too expensive? Obviously, if you're designing a new, low volume PPC based system that's inevitable.
If I had the resources, I'd be tempted to do something similar (although I'd use one of Varisys' recommended processors from Freescale, not a dead end like the PA6T).
Having someone build a vanity system based on idealized specifications (that will probably never be a commercial success) is hardly the disaster you paint it out to be.
Will it greatly increase the numbers of people using AOS4?
Nope.
Would I take one if offered?
So fast your head would spin.
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Of course, MOS will be faced with having to break out of only supporting old powerpc hardware at some point too. Those old Macs will only last for so long.
Lets put it this way: what Hyperion is going to do when PPC is finished?
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@amigadave
Exactly. I totally I agree with you. This is an OS4 machine, for OS4 users is the DREAM machine, like the A4000 was for A500 users.
How so? I mean, if OS4 actually supported Xena, Xorro, the second CPU core, and the more common onboard hardware - yeah maybe it would be somebody's idea of a "dream". As it is though it's just a somewhat faster CPU & RAM.
Unless you mean, it's a dream to make OS4 look even more ridiculous, if so then point taken.
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If AmigaOS 4 ever gets ported to the Mac, it will be doomed to stay on old hardware forever, as the market for new machines would be obliterated- which is exactly what they do not want.
Too late, OS4 is anchored onto PPC.
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I posted a link to some benchmarks in this thread in post 228 (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=31896&forum=33&start=220&viewmode=flat&order=0#570174).
According to them the PA6T not only beats a G5 at a higher clock speed but it completely destroys the G4.
Looks like it is misconfigured to me. Is the L2 switched on? What power mode is it in? Are both memory controllers on? etc...
BTW This is a remarkably common problem. Even the big boys do it.
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Lets put it this way: what Hyperion is going to do when PPC is finished?
Good question, and given all the PPC suppliers are switching to ARM, one they are going to have to answer fairly soon.
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I posted a link to some benchmarks in this thread in post 228 (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=31896&forum=33&start=220&viewmode=flat&order=0#570174).
According to them the PA6T not only beats a G5 at a higher clock speed but it completely destroys the G4.
Looks like it is misconfigured to me. Is the L2 switched on? What power mode is it in? Are both memory controllers on? etc...
Reading the actual slides you run into
Application included significant VMX (AltiVecTM) use and significant main-memory utilization
(emphasis mine)
PA6T has significant advantage when processing large data set from/to memory.
Some further comments:
- 970FX is a single core CPU, 970MP would have crushed the PA6T, at least if it would have had enough memory bandwidth (but would naturally have been a power pig at that, but that's beside the point here). If the application really is as memory bound is it looks like, PA6T might have even won over 970MP.
- 7447 of 975MHz was used. Considering the PLL multipliers available for the 7447 it means that the bus didn't even run at 166MHz, but likely something less. Considering the memory bound nature of the application it likely explains the extremely poor 7447 results. The later PowerStream G4 processor modules do run 154MHz MPX bus with 6.5 multiplier though, but even that is still extremely slow compared to 970 not to mention PA6T.
So I don't think it's up to misconfiguration, but rather CPU bound vs memory bound tasks. In Addition OS4 does not support the 2nd core of PA6T.
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Good question, and given all the PPC suppliers are switching to ARM, one they are going to have to answer fairly soon.
Interesting opinion, but false.
Both AppliedMicro and Freescale continue to develop new PPC processors.
No current ARM processor outperforms even the dated G5.
Freescale has announce the re-introduction of AltiVec instructions to many of its PPC product lines and one processor that has as many as 20 virtual cores.
ARM is an in-order processor design with no where near the power of an out of order PPC design (per clock cycle a PPC is an significantly more powerful design).
All three of the most popular gaming platforms use PPC derived processors and at least two of their successors will continue to do so.
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Good question, and given all the PPC suppliers are switching to ARM, one they are going to have to answer fairly soon.
Quite a bold statement about *all* ppc suppliers. Freescale isn't switching to ARM - they are supporting both, ppc & ARM since ages. And I don't see ibm going ARM in favor of ppc.
ARM has clearly most of the buzz and very probably a brighter future than ppc, but it's not a world revolution and ppc going >nil:
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Interesting opinion, but false.
Both AppliedMicro and Freescale continue to develop new PPC processors.
No current ARM processor outperforms even the dated G5.
Freescale has announce the re-introduction of AltiVec instructions to many of its PPC product lines and one processor that has as many as 20 virtual cores.
But everybody says PPC is dead! If it's repeated so much, it must be true, right?
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@kas1e
>>We all there in benchmark threads not because we want discredit or credit any kind of product.
Doesn't look like it.
>>Potential users should know the truth.
What truth there is there to know? It's not that they are hiding anything is there? You make it sound like people have been hiding stuff. If a person wants to buy an X1000 they are probably people in the know anyway, they know the specs of the machine and what to expect from it, it's PPC dual core for OS4.
Anyway, want to do the tests? Fine by me, if I can save the money I'll buy a X1000 because it'll be magnitudes faster than my SAM440ep at 666MHz running OS4, that is it.
I have already got PPC iMac, Intel based iMacs, not that I use them that often, a super-dupa PC with Win 7, I am looking to get the fastest Amiga there is or AmigaOS 4 capable machine.
So if it's slower than a PPC mac I can't care less.
Keep testing :)
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And the truth is quite easy. The x1000 is the fastest AmigaOs machine there is. That wasn't hard. :afro:
Way faster than my SAM440 at 666MHz and my old A1200 PPC at 266MHz, more than enough for me to warrant a purchase ;)
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But everybody says PPC is dead! If it's repeated so much, it must be true, right?
well in fact everybody says ppc is dead on the *desktop* - and this is de facto true. Albeit there are a few processors upcoming whih could be nicely used with desktops. In embedded/telco/supercomputing/automotive ppc is still pretty alive.
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How so? I mean, if OS4 actually supported Xena, Xorro, the second CPU core, and the more common onboard hardware - yeah maybe it would be somebody's idea of a "dream". As it is though it's just a somewhat faster CPU & RAM.
Unless you mean, it's a dream to make OS4 look even more ridiculous, if so then point taken.
You never know maybe one day...but this is not the point, even if it did all those things there will still be someone who'd come up with a test...
I stand by my idea that all this is done to laugh at Trevor/Hyperion because someone got beaten last time and feels very angry and bitter and now want revenge! :)
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@takemehomegrandma
When I thought you could not sink any lower...
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@takemehomegrandma
When I thought you could not sink any lower...
He's been at the bottom for years (!), everyone knows that and he has been told that a million times allready.
You can even look him up in google with his real name to see, not exactly good stuff.
i can't think of a single good thing this guy has done to the community, he was even paid to slander OS4 in the early 2k's , but then again he wasn't the only one.
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With this in perspective, a bit "amusing" to actually see someone enjoying the benefits of Kenya paying the price tag of 3-4 Core-i7 systems, for an Ethiopian "Meatballs Plus" dish, to be able to say "I am an Ethiopian(TM)".
Across the lake, in Bulgaria, people bought cheap computers for less than the price of a morph OS license, put AROS on them, and while it wasn't perfect, and while it had a long way to go....
.... it belonged to everyone, it could be freely shared, copied and distributed and could never be taken away from them.
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@kas1e
>>We all there in benchmark threads not because we want discredit or credit any kind of product.
Doesn't look like it.
>>Potential users should know the truth.
What truth there is there to know? It's not that they are hiding anything is there? You make it sound like people have been hiding stuff.
They HAVE been hiding stuff. Not sure if you knew this but everyone who had an X1000 until last week was under NDA.
If a person wants to buy an X1000 they are probably people in the know anyway, they know the specs of the machine and what to expect from it, it's PPC dual core for OS4.
Except OS4 doesn't support dual core.
Anyway, want to do the tests? Fine by me, if I can save the money I'll buy a X1000 because it'll be magnitudes faster than my SAM440ep at 666MHz running OS4, that is it.
I have already got PPC iMac, Intel based iMacs, not that I use them that often, a super-dupa PC with Win 7, I am looking to get the fastest Amiga there is or AmigaOS 4 capable machine.
So if it's slower than a PPC mac I can't care less.
Keep testing :)
Enjoy "The Power of X"
Oh wait, OS4 doesn't support that either. Bend over!
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I find it kind off odd (as a MorphOS) to find myself in the middle of this defending all NG OS'.
OK, so you don't like PPC. While a weaker performer then X86, PPC is clearly the most powerful alternate ISA. ARM may be a viable option soon. We'll have to see.
And I don't see the rush to move OS4 or MorphOS to X86. AROS already serves that market. And with OSX, Windows and Linux all going strong on X86 platforms, Amiga like OS' would be a hard sell.
BTW - Who really thinks there are blue and red camps? I just use the best alternative for me. For all I care, you can use whatever you want.
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Except OS4 doesn't support dual core.
Like that's a surprise?
No NG OS supports more then one core yet.
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Quite a bold statement about *all* ppc suppliers. Freescale isn't switching to ARM - they are supporting both, ppc & ARM since ages. And I don't see ibm going ARM in favor of ppc.
And I don't see IBM going PPC in favor over POWER...
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jorkany
>>They HAVE been hiding stuff. Not sure if you knew this but everyone who had an X1000 until last week was under NDA.
That means jack as IF they had something to hide it would have come out eventually so that is rubbish.
>>Except OS4 doesn't support dual core.
And it doesn't mean it won't happen...next?
>>Enjoy "The Power of X"
Will do if I can find the money to buy one.
Oh I use AmigaOS4 because it's fun and I consider it the natural successor of AmigaOS. To me a SAM or a X1000 is required to make use of it.
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Like that's a surprise?
No NG OS supports more then one core yet.
No other "Amiga" NG vendor is trying to sell multicore hardware claiming its an advantage with their supporting OS either.
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jorkany
>>They HAVE been hiding stuff. Not sure if you knew this but everyone who had an X1000 until last week was under NDA.
That means jack as IF they had something to hide it would have come out eventually so that is rubbish.
Looks like things ARE starting to come out. This is the eventuality. Expect more as time goes on.
>>Except OS4 doesn't support dual core.
And it doesn't mean it won't happen...next?
Of course! And monkeys might fly out of my ass.
>>Enjoy "The Power of X"
Will do if I can find the money to buy one.
Oh I use AmigaOS4 because it's fun and I consider it the natural successor of AmigaOS. To me a SAM or a X1000 is required to make use of it.
Honestly you're better off with the SAM. Acube is the best thing to ever happen to OS4. Support them and you might even get fast hardware that isn't based on an EOL processor with gimmickery glued to the motherboard.
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And I don't see IBM going PPC in favor over POWER...
Power = ppc. There's no difference anymore since Power ISA 2.03 and ppc is the outdated name. I prefer to use it out of tradition. Nitpickingly you are right, ppc is dead. But power isn't. Neither at ibm, nor at Freescale. Freescale are using both name schemes, PowerPC and Power. I think they do it because of tradition like I am doing it.
Quote from wikipedia:
The PowerPC specification is now handled by Power.org where IBM, Freescale, and AMCC are members. PowerPC, Cell and POWER processors are now jointly marketed as the Power Architecture. Power.org released a unified ISA, combining POWER and PowerPC ISAs into the new Power ISA v.2.03 specification and a new reference platform for servers called PAPR (Power Architecture Platform Reference).
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@jorkany
>>Looks like things ARE starting to come out. This is the eventuality. Expect more as time goes on.
I love conspiracy theories :)
>>Of course! And monkeys might fly out of my ass.
I am starting to believe that... :D
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and monkeys might fly out of my ass.
wat?
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@jorkany
>>Looks like things ARE starting to come out. This is the eventuality. Expect more as time goes on.
I love conspiracy theories :)
erm, still what about your x500 case proptotype which you have announced as almost ready, just need to wait another week, wait, it was.. last spring?? once you are taking yourself seriously, no wonder you take other announcements of coresponding value seriously as well.
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Interesting opinion, but false.
Really?
Freescale - shipped low end ARM for years but have been recently been phasing out other architectures. Yes, they are developing a high end PPC for networking but they have also licensed Cortex-A15 which will be similar performance wise. Given the massive cost of developing CPU cores I can't see them doing anything other than die shrinks after this.
Applied Micro (AMCC) - They don't design PPC cores, they mainly license them from IBM.
They have announced a 64bit ARM for servers that is more aggressive and clocked higher than anything they have have PPC wise.
LSI - Another company doing ARM at the low end. They had started doing PPC but they also just licensed the A15.
IBM - Go find me a PowerPC that you can actually buy as a chip that isn't a G3.
IBM don't make ARM chips but they are on Linaro's board - Linaro is a company that does ARM Linux.
No current ARM processor outperforms even the dated G5.
A high end A15 should at least equal a high end G5.
ARM is an in-order processor design
Wrong. Both the A9 and A15 are out of order.
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erm, still what about your x500 case proptotype which you have announced as almost ready, just need to wait another week, wait, it was.. last spring?? once you are taking yourself seriously, no wonder you take other announcements of coresponding value seriously as well.
It takes time and money. As you know from my bank manager, it, the money, quickly runs out that is why my pumped up SAM440ep goes under the hammer. ;)
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=60650
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So I don't think it's up to misconfiguration, but rather CPU bound vs memory bound tasks. In Addition OS4 does not support the 2nd core of PA6T.
But...
Many of the benchmarks shown so far are hitting memory but none of them show any advantage over the G4.
OTOH some are AltiVec and maybe it's really fussy running that?
The memory and especially L2 benchmarks look lower than I'd expect. My guess is the memory might be running slow and the L2 is running very slow.
Linux benchmarks should confirm it.
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@TheDaddy
Wawa just tryint to point, that we all can have such kind of problems, when we almost sure that something will be done, tons of problems and millions of factors arise which are stop the result. Because of that some of us found funny how other ones are believe that smp will be done 100%. Of course it possible in some form, of course Hyperion mostly do what they say, but in opposite, there is a lot of problems, resources, time and as well as from the past its wellknown that even good companies die after their good announcement about "one more week". I even not add about plans about workbench rewrite (in year 2006 or when it was said), about Nova, and whateve relse, what never come.
Thats why some of us call all that SMP fantasy: not because it can't be done, sure in one or in another form it can be done (everything possible, if only .. ) But be in hope that it will done, its already rulete. Maybe will, maybe not. Plans can keeps as plans, promises as only promises. Knowing also the current situation with all of this amiga stuff around, no one can expect that something radical will be done soon. Good if it, but i really doubt.
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But...
Many of the benchmarks shown so far are hitting memory but none of them show any advantage over the G4.
I'd say the memory benchmarks (RageMem, STREAM benchmark) did show significant advantage over G4.
Linux benchmarks should confirm it.
You'd still need to shut down the 2nd core before benchmarking, however. Maybe some boot option...
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Really?
Freescale - shipped low end ARM for years but have been recently been phasing out other architectures. Yes, they are developing a high end PPC for networking but they have also licensed Cortex-A15 which will be similar performance wise. Given the massive cost of developing CPU cores I can't see them doing anything other than die shrinks after this.
Applied Micro (AMCC) - They don't design PPC cores, they mainly license them from IBM.
They have announced a 64bit ARM for servers that is more aggressive and clocked higher than anything they have have PPC wise.
LSI - Another company doing ARM at the low end. They had started doing PPC but they also just licensed the A15.
IBM - Go find me a PowerPC that you can actually buy as a chip that isn't a G3.
IBM don't make ARM chips but they are on Linaro's board - Linaro is a company that does ARM Linux.
A high end A15 should at least equal a high end G5.
Wrong. Both the A9 and A15 are out of order.
Wow, before you make claims you need to research your facts.
Yes both Freescale and Applied Micro have ARM licenses (and I believe even IBM has manufactured ARM processors under contract).
Applied Micro has downplayed all their former licensed designs in favor of several new PPC families that are considerably more powerfully.
Their 64 bit ARM processor is designed to be used in clusters in the server market (not for consumer products)
Freescale has launched the e5000 core (with 1 to 4 cores) and the e6500 core (in 4 core clusters with up to 24 virtual cores).
They are 64bit designs that are much more powerful then their predecessors.
Hardly "die shrinks" by any stretch of the imagination (although they are slated to be manufactured on a 28nm process)
IBM continues to produce the Cell BE for Sony (PPC derived) and is designing the next processor for the successor to the Nintendo Wii that merges elements of PPC architecture with elements of the Power8 family.
IBM still offers G5 level processors (which are obviously more powerful then a G3), but no further development has been done of this line because there's no large buyers.
Instead, they've focused on Cell and Power derived solutions (which are both, again, PPC related).
ALL current (and near future) ARM processors other then AMCCs server line are 32bit (rumor is that Nvidia and Microsoft have also licensed with the intent to produce 64bit processors, but no official statements have been released).
ARM at its fastest runs at 2GHz (although some may soon make it to the "high" speed of 2.5GHz). The majority are in order execution designs.
The A15 will never best a 2.7 GHz G5 Mac and newer 64bit PPCs from Freescale should be able to do that.
Finally, let me make a personal prediction. Even if Microsoft is a licensee of 64bit ARM technology, the XBOX720 is still going to contain an INM designed PPC based processor (and ATI graphic). I'd bet on it.
ARM has an interesting future, but its not there yet.
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@takemehomegrandma
When I thought you could not sink any lower...
I take it you didn't like my "little" rant about the different approaches of OS4 and MorphOS teams, and the *results* of them, then? At least I'm glad you didn't find any errors, that the real situation is similar to what I pictured! :) Now off you go and have some fun with your $3,000 meatball dish! ;)
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He's been at the bottom for years (!), everyone knows that and he has been told that a million times allready.
You can even look him up in google with his real name to see, not exactly good stuff.
i can't think of a single good thing this guy has done to the community, he was even paid to slander OS4 in the early 2k's , but then again he wasn't the only one.
Was this your best shot at being a *creepy* person? :lol:
Lies, covered threats, slander, shoot the messenger if you don't like the message, so maybe he will be silent in the future? :rolleyes: :)
lempkee... :lol:
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I take it you didn't like my "little" rant about the different approaches of OS4 and MorphOS teams, and the *results* of them, then? At least I'm glad you didn't find any errors, that the real situation is similar to what I pictured! :) Now off you go and have some fun with your $3,000 meatball dish! ;)
Not really...comparing people dying of starvation to obscure operating systems is very lame even for you.
Just so you know I don't have a £1500 meatball dish but if I did it would be more interesting and exciting than a recycled, second hand, discarded old apple product. ;)
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@TheDaddy
than a recycled, second hand, discarded old apple product.
But you for first can't buy x1000 now (all those contacts-shmontacs, first-second bunches, preorders only via mails, etc), and for second its also will be second hand, discarded and old soon :)
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@TheDaddy
But you for first can't buy x1000 now (all those contacts-shmontacs, first-second bunches, preorders only via mails, etc), and for second its also will be second hand, discarded and old soon :)
Can't buy the X1000 because got sold out very quickly which tells me that the "contacts-shmontacs, first-second bunches, preorders only via mails" worked really well. :)
Surely it will be second hand one day but hopefully the OS4 community won't have to rely on stuff handed down the line by apple.
At the moment we are safe in the knowledge that we can buy brand new OS4 machines which are well supported by their manufacturers, see ACube for example.
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@TheDaddy
Surely it will be second hand one day but hopefully the OS4 community won't have to rely on stuff handed down the line by apple.
I do not know to be honest. Imho skipping supporting of already good hw (yes its old and second handed, but still its prove to be good, g4 and g5 are fine cpus) a bit irrational. I mean that for sure, x1000 can be solds over the true amiga fanatics, but what next ? Most ppls for sure will choice cheaper solutions if they firstly will come to amigaworld and just comparing available ways. But (imho again) hyperion kind of in interst to sold more copies of os4, and then, macs will help with it as well. Anyone who want "non second hand, brand new, uniq amigaos4 hw only" can by x1000 for 3000$, but those who want "second hand, old and discarded" macs for 300-500$, which kind of the same by speed if we check the benchmarks, can buy them. Bigger choice, more users, everyone win. Fanatics can spend a lot of money to x1000, pragmatics or who can't or do not want to spend a lot of money, can spend less for macs.
For me its just sound irrational to not support macs, and i think, that the real purpose of not doing this, its that "morphos do it already". I even read somethere in the forums back in time, how one of brothers say "and new netbook are new ! not used mac hw! ". I.e. like it make any differences, while its wellknown that netbook are just old lime. Just kind of irrational, and sounds indeed like mac-mos-fobia.
At the moment we are safe in the knowledge that we can buy brand new OS4 machines which are well supported by their manufacturers, see ACube for example.
Acube for sure deserve a credit. They never hold the truth, they open, they fix their board if something going wrong, they write a drivers and release it without waiting for os updates, that all point to them as to adequate persons. Sadly we can't say the same about everything in amiga world
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@ Iggy
A Cortex-A8 (Efika MX) beats a Sam440.
A Cortex-A9 beats a G4.
Tegra 3 is still Cortex-A9 based. The Cortex-A9 supports quad core by design, but it looks like they will only make Tegra 3 in single and dual core configurations. Instead, the Tegra (Wayne) series will be Core-A15 based, and "About 10 times faster than Tegra 2". (Wikipedia's Tegra page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tegra))
(rumor is that Nvidia and Microsoft have also licensed with the intent to produce 64bit processors, but no official statements have been released).
Read: Microsoft Announces Support of System on a Chip Architectures From ... ARM for Next Version of Windows (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2011/jan11/01-05SOCsupport.mspx)
"LAS VEGAS - Jan. 5, 2011 - Microsoft Corp. today announced at 2011 International CES that the next version of Windows will support System on a Chip (SoC) architectures, including ARM-based systems from partners NVIDIA Corp ... Microsoft Office running natively on ARM was also shown as a demonstration of the potential of Windows platform capabilities on ARM architecture."
(WINTEL -> "WARM"? ;))
See for yourself Windows and MS Office running on current (or "yesteryear") ARM systems: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKc_XGuvNIk&t=1m11s
I think ARM plays a *very* important part in Microsoft's upcoming strategy. The whole new UI in Windows 8 suggests a paradigm shift, where tablets and other mobile devices will be part of the Windows eco-system.
Read: NVIDIA Announces "Project Denver" to Build Custom CPU Cores Based on ARM Architecture, Targeting Personal Computers to Supercomputers (http://pressroom.nvidia.com/easyir/customrel.do?easyirid=A0D622CE9F579F09&version=live&releasejsp=release_157&xhtml=true&prid=705184)
Read: More on "Denver" (http://blogs.nvidia.com/2011/01/project-denver-processor-to-usher-in-new-era-of-computing/):
"Known under the internal codename "Project Denver," this initiative features an NVIDIA CPU running the ARM instruction set, which will be fully integrated on the same chip as the NVIDIA GPU ... Denver frees PCs, workstations and servers from the hegemony and inefficiency of the x86 architecture. For several years, makers of high-end computing platforms have had no choice about instruction-set architecture. The only option was the x86 instruction set with variable-length instructions, a small register set, and other features that interfered with modern compiler optimizations, required a larger area for instruction decoding, and substantially reduced energy efficiency.
Denver provides a choice. System builders can now choose a high-performance processor based on a RISC instruction set with modern features such as fixed-width instructions, predication, and a large general register file. These features enable advanced compiler techniques and simplify implementation, ultimately leading to higher performance and a more energy-efficient processor ... The result is that future systems - from the thinnest laptops to the biggest data centers, and everything in between - will deliver an outstanding combination of performance and power efficiency."
And this one is *really* interesting, you should real the whole article: nVidia Chief explains his strategy for winning in mobile computing (http://venturebeat.com/2011/03/04/qa-nvidia-chief-explains-his-strategy-for-winning-in-mobile-computing/)
"The second thing we announced was Project Denver. We’ve been working on a CPU internally for about three and half years or so. (Said in March 2011) It takes about five years to build any full custom CPU. And Project Denver has a few hundred engineers working on it for this period of time and our strategy with Project Denver was to extend the reach of ARM beyond the mobile, the handheld computing space. To take the ARM processor, partner with them to develop a next-generation 64 bit processor to extend it so that all of computing can have the benefits of that instruction set architecture. It is backward-compatible with today’s ARM processors."
Oh, and of course ARM themselves has announces 64-bit: ARM Discloses Technical Details Of The Next Version Of The ARM Architecture (http://arm.com/about/newsroom/arm-discloses-technical-details-of-the-next-version-of-the-arm-architecture.php)
So what we have here, is a future where ARM will be the only architecture spanning from the tiniest little handheld gadget, via phones and tablets, up to PC's, Workstations, Servers and Supercomputers. It will be 32-bit, and it will be 64-bit. This development is backed and embraced by some very big companies, including Microsoft.
Finally, let me make a personal prediction. Even if Microsoft is a licensee of 64bit ARM technology, the XBOX720 is still going to contain an INM designed PPC based processor (and ATI graphic). I'd bet on it.
I'd bet against that! ;)
An ARM based Xbox 720 would allow them to enter (for the first time) the mobile/handheld gaming market, using practically the same OS/SW/HW architecture, it would be one and the same eco-system.
I am certain that also Apple will go ARM in the future. As the nVidia CEO said in the linked article above: " I don't know their plans but if you look at it from 10,000 feet, it seems to make sense, right? Because if they go Mac on ARM, they could address some of their concerns with their own SOC. So instead of paying $150, they can pay $15."
I think ARM is the future! :)
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@Kas1e
>>I do not know to be honest. Imho skipping supporting of already good hw (yes its old and second handed, but still its prove to be good, g4 and g5 are fine cpus) a bit irrational.
This can only be answered by Hyp.
>>I mean that for sure, x1000 can be solds over the true amiga fanatics, but what next ?
We don't know, maybe there will not be a next. Maybe there'll be another motherboard, maybe ACube will release another type of motherboard.
>>I doubt that even if OS4 was available for Macs it'd sell more copies of OS4 otherwise Hyp would have done it. It's also what MOS does.
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Not really...comparing people dying of starvation to obscure operating systems is very lame even for you.
How has the Amiga community *not* been dying of starvation during the last 15 years? And how is "the mad Generals" *not* to blame for their decisions? They are the ones that have been in charge, they are the responsible ones. "Mismanagement" is a much too nice word to use when describing Amiga Inc, Hyperion, et al.
Just so you know I don't have a £1500 meatball dish but if I did it would be more interesting and exciting than a recycled, second hand, discarded old apple product. ;)
But the X1000 isn't "new" either, sure it is newly put together, but by using some old batch of leftover 2007 technology (was the PA6T even really developed fully to a mature production level, or had it only reached early "sample" versions before Apple shut it down? Never seen a real product using it!). It doesn't bring much new to the table in comparison to a Power Mac G4 @ 2GHz. Not even to a Mac Mini @ 1.5 GHz. And it for sure isn't a laptop.
I think it's hilarious to see you people completely dissing one 2007 level computer, that is mainstream and extremely cheap, while at the same time praising another 2007 level computer that performs about the same, doesn't add much at all, still being the old 2007 stuff, but costing $3,000.
I think it's OK to buy a Skoda at the price of a Skoda. They are nice, budget cars today.
I also think it's OK to buy a Mercedes at the price of a Mercedes. They are great, luxurious cars.
However, I can't help thinking it's *insane* when people buying a Skoda at the price of a Mercedes!
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>>How has the Amiga community *not* been dying of starvation during the last 15 years? And how is "the mad Generals" *not* to blame for their decisions? They are the ones that have been in charge, they are the responsible ones. "Mismanagement" is a much too nice word to use when describing Amiga Inc, Hyperion, et al.
What are you on about?
What you voluntarily try not to understand is that you can't run AmigaOS4 on the macs so all this is just useless chat. Now, if you find it entertaining posting "benchmarks" and throw mud around then carry on. Have fun.
You are happy with your mac and MOS others are happy with their overpriced, underpowered AmigaOS4 machines. There.
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It takes time and money. As you know from my bank manager, it, the money, quickly runs out that is why my pumped up SAM440ep goes under the hammer. ;)
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=60650
Off topic I know but any chance of using Kickstarter?
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@ Iggy
A Cortex-A8 (Efika MX) beats a Sam440.
A Cortex-A9 beats a G4.
You like long winded posts, but you never offer any proof for your statements.
I'd really like to see a benchmark on the second one since it seems implausible.
I've known about Nvidia's plans for some time, but the induction of Denver is a long way off. You could have just posted a wolf type link (rather then reproducing so much text).
And the XBOX720? So far, only news about the GPU (based on ATI HD 6000, now particularly impressive). Evolutionary not revolutionary. I'll take your bet.
ARM the future? Who knows?
I'm not sure I'd bet on anything (except seeing AMD continue to falter).
Against Intel, ARM has a real fight.
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However, I can't help thinking it's *insane* when people buying a Skoda at the price of a Mercedes!
That line, however, is hilarious.
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What you voluntarily try not to understand is that you can't run AmigaOS4 on the macs so all this is just useless chat.
What you are ignoring is that the people who could have delivered an OS4 version that runs on a Mac (remember "Moana"? that was four years ago) decided not to do so. And now the very same people are trying to sell you a $3000 computer that apparently doesn't do anything that a six year old $200 Mac can't do. And we never got any explanation for this decision. That's why a comparison with Mac hardware is not "useless chat", but food for thought.
Some of us really want to use OS4 (it was my main OS for four years), but the only choices presented to us are pocket calculators that cost a fortune, or outdated desktop computers that cost three fortunes. I'm asking myself "why?" - and with every delay, with every benchmark, every time somebody mentions the price tag I look at Hyperion, the OS4 devs or A-EON for answers.
I didn't get any answers so far. Instead, I can now look forward to the next custom hardware debacle - which, as usual, is going to start with a major delay (the OS4 netbook should be out in four months - wanna bet if they make that deadline?). Followed by performance problems and stability or QA issues. And then either the hardware or the manufacturer (or both) will vanish again, leaving behind 50 proud owners of a netbook which is only half supported by the OS that runs on it.
At the same time MorphOS users are going to run their OS on cheap and readily available laptops produced by a respected company that run circles around those wannabe netbooks that will cost three times as much and will be produced by god knows who.
But yeah, our biggest problems are those evil guys publishing benchmarks.
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I was somewhat surprised by the apparent lack of speed shown by the PA 6T. I must say I expected it to be faster than G4, on core per core basis.
Seems like Powerbook is the best choice right now for PPC Amiga speed freaks.
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What you voluntarily try not to understand is that you can't run AmigaOS4 on the macs so all this is just useless chat.
That's just not true.
Someone leaked a beta port for the Mac Mini years ago.
Hyperion chooses not to support affordable platforms.
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Hyperion chooses not to support affordable platforms.
Yes, they seem to be very good at shooting themselves in the foot.
They have been now 2 years in posession of a settlement with Amiga Inc which allows them to port freely to whichever architecture or hardware they choose(specifically mentioned in the settlement, I know because I checked), yet they don't seem to be doing anything smart with it.
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If Moana had come out, we would not have Sams, we would not have X1000, we would have nothing new because there would be no market. We would all be tied to using Mac cast-offs.
Many of us don't want that. By releasing AOS 4 for Macs we would be tied down to second hand Macs for the lifetime of AOS 4, I'd much rather have spanking new hardware even if it is new hardware.
If you want to use old Macs, use MOS. If you don't, use AOS. Be happy with what you choose, and let other people be happy with what they choose.
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I was somewhat surprised by the apparent lack of speed shown by the PA 6T. I must say I expected it to be faster than G4, on core per core basis.
Now we're finding out why it was EOL'd. I'm also interested in what happens when the lack of availability becomes an issue. New old warehouse stock has a funny way of running out.
Popcorn 2-for-1 sale at Publix this week!
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x1k is for sure not a mind blowing succes as os4 hardcore fans try suggest. on the other hand lets look at that in comparison. this machine has a apparently good results on bernd rosch 68k benchmark, so from 68k perspective where we will likely never see a 1.8 ghz singlecore 68k compatible cpu in operation a ppc which such specs is already not a bad choice. imagine what would happen if natami team delivered it with even only 1ghz softcore instead of 100mhz one? wouldnt it be a achievement to be considered legendary? of course modern amithlon or aros with os4/mos likewise 68k compatibility would even be better, heck, probably even macmini with mos, especially considering more advanced system, and the x1k price is doubtless a nail to its coffin, but lets give it credit it deserves.
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If Moana had come out, we would not have Sams, we would not have X1000
Yes, but you make it sound like this would be a bad thing? Why?
Edit: Are you aware that moana actually was said to be an ACube project? Apparently the Sam manufacturer itself didn't worry too much about the Sam.
We would all be tied to using Mac cast-offs.
They are cheaper, easier to get and available in bigger numbers. And if one breaks, you simply buy a replacement (you can do that ten times before getting even close to what the x1000 costs). Again, what's the problem?
By releasing AOS 4 for Macs we would be tied down to second hand Macs for the lifetime of AOS 4
Who said "lifetime"? We could be using OS4 on cheap, proven hardware right now. And while we would have fun doing that, we could take our time to plan the next step.
Planning the next step is neccessary anyway - the x1000 always was a dead end.
If you want to use old Macs, use MOS. If you don't, use AOS. Be happy with what you choose, and let other people be happy with what they choose.
You can be happy as much as you want. And I'm going to voice my opinion as much as I want. Deal?
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>>What you are ignoring is that the people who could have delivered an OS4 version that runs on a Mac (remember "Moana"? that was four years ago) decided not to do so.
There must have been a reason behind that decision but I don't make a big deal out of it. They decided not to go that route this is ok with me. So today we are in a situation where we have OS4 for SAMs and X1000. And for someone interested in doing just that these machine will do the job.
>>And now the very same people are trying to sell you a $3000 computer that apparently doesn't do anything that a six year old $200 Mac can't do. And we never got any explanation for this decision. That's why a comparison with Mac hardware is not "useless chat", but food for thought.
Apart from the fact that is a strong possibility that the X1000 benchmarks are skewed but if you don't like OS4 and don't like the X1000 then the answer is simple: "Don't buy them!" :)
>>Some of us really want to use OS4 (it was my main OS for four years), but the only choices presented to us are pocket calculators that cost a fortune, or outdated desktop computers that cost three fortunes. I'm asking myself "why?" - and with every delay, with every benchmark, every time somebody mentions the price tag I look at Hyperion, the OS4 devs or A-EON for answers.
If you can't cope with the idea of using a calculator to run OS4 then use MOS on the mac they are more or less the same anyway.
I don't mind the idea of a netbook with OS4 on but I am really more into the powerful stuff. So I might get a 460ex or if I can stretch it a X1000 (no matter what the "benchmarks" say).
Why? Because I have fun with OS4 and want it to develop further.
>>At the same time MorphOS users are going to run their OS on cheap and readily available laptops produced by a respected company that run circles around those wannabe netbooks that will cost three times as much and will be produced by god knows who.
Then good luck to them. :) Get yourself MOS3.0 and a mac.
>>But yeah, our biggest problems are those evil guys publishing benchmarks.
My problem is not strictly the benchmarks as even on pcs I rarely look at them but how the system and the OS work together. My problem is the rabid "revenge" some have to quickly take to show that they were right all along and OS4.1.5 on the X1000 is not even finished.
Bah...
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That's just not true.
Someone leaked a beta port for the Mac Mini years ago.
Hyperion chooses not to support affordable platforms.
And that is not true. We all know about Moana but they decided not to follow that path, I respect their decision, it's their business and their decision so there is NO OS4 for macs.
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Yes, they seem to be very good at shooting themselves in the foot.
They have been now 2 years in posession of a settlement with Amiga Inc which allows them to port freely to whichever architecture or hardware they choose(specifically mentioned in the settlement, I know because I checked), yet they don't seem to be doing anything smart with it.
That is your point of view.
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x1k is for sure not a mind blowing succes as os4 hardcore fans try suggest.
Disagree. All sold out and people asking for more so...
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And that is not true. We all know about Moana but they decided not to follow that path, I respect their decision, it's their business and their decision so there is NO OS4 for macs.
You agree that they decided not to port to affordable Mac hardware, but you don't think it's true that they choose not to port to affordable Mac hardware?
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There must have been a reason behind that decision but I don't make a big deal out of it. They decided not to go that route this is ok with me.
So comparing the x1000 to PPC Macs is not "useless chat" - it's just that you don't care? That's good for you, but why come into this thread and tell us to shut up?
don't like the X1000 then the answer is simple: "Don't buy them!" :) [...]
then use MOS on the mac [...]
Get yourself MOS3.0 and a mac. [...]
Because I have fun with OS4 and want it to develop further.
Your idea of "letting OS4 develop further" is to tell potential customers to "go away and use MorphOS"?
Disagree. All sold out and people asking for more so...
How many x1000 computers did they sell? 120? 140?
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You agree that they decided not to port to affordable Mac hardware, but you don't think it's true that they choose not to port to affordable Mac hardware?
From what I remember they decided not to port OS4 but I could be wrong and it's ok with me as I am still a OS4 user and quite happy :)
I remember watching the Moana video and thinking it was a good idea although it could have meant direct competition with MOS and also being stuck with second hand macs.
All in all they run the OS4 show...
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All in all they run the OS4 show...
Well, obviously, but that doesn't make their decisions good.
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@chutjahr
>>So comparing the x1000 to PPC Macs is not "useless chat" - it's just that you don't care?
No. I said there are some people who are using these tests to discredit OS4 and the X1000 knowing perfectly well that the X1000 as a machine hasn't been around for long but they quickly jump on it to rip apart.
>>That's good for you, but why come into this thread and tell us to shut up?
No. See above.
>>Because I have fun with OS4 and want it to develop further.
Your idea of "letting OS4 develop further" is to tell potential customers to "go away and use MorphOS"?
Which potential customers? The same ones running the benchmarks? Please as if you'd be interested in buy "overpriced and underpowered hardware", so you are telling me that even if we find out that the X1000 is slightly slower than a mac you'd still be interested in buying it?
>>How many x1000 computers did they sell? 120? 140?
I don't know the exact number but they went within a matter of hours and more have been requested so they are not up there with mighty apple and its dodgy ways of producing hardware yet. If I were takemehomegranma instead of running weird and unnecessary parallels between Operating Systems and people starving I'd check the way those apple ipads, imac and ipods are manufactured and the conditions those workers and children have to endure so people can have a shiny iphone.
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Well, obviously, but that doesn't make their decisions good.
True. But I can not change that. I like OS4 and I need a machine to run it on. I now have a few choices. I could even say f*ck everything and stick with Win7 but I know I'd miss messing about with it.
You have watched my video of OS4.1.4 running on my SAM440ep. Well it's less powerful than a netbook but I put a quick SSD in and it transformed it. I enjoy pushing the little beast and last night I was running Quake 1 and Quake 2 at the same time, then I added Quake 3 and it started stuttering until it stopped. I would miss doing this kind of mad stuff.
Anyway I am off to finish part two of the video.
This is what really stops the Amiga from coming back...there is no unity.
Peace! :)
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This is what really stops the Amiga from coming back...there is no unity.
Wouldn't matter if I were unified - I simply cannot afford $3K for a computer.
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Regarding the whole Moana thing, if I remember correctly Moana was a proof of concept made by ACube, not by Hyperion. I could be wrong on that, it was a while ago.
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I don't know the exact number but they went within a matter of hours and more have been requested so they are not up there with mighty apple and its dodgy ways of producing hardware yet. If I were takemehomegranma instead of running weird and unnecessary parallels between Operating Systems and people starving I'd check the way those apple ipads, imac and ipods are manufactured and the conditions those workers and children have to endure so people can have a shiny iphone.
Slavery is freedom!
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Regarding the whole Moana thing, if I remember correctly Moana was a proof of concept made by ACube, not by Hyperion. I could be wrong on that, it was a while ago.
Seems unlikely as Hyperion (not Acube) controls OS4. Also, Acuibe would hardly profit by a port to Mac hardware.
BTW - Currently we're in a rut, stuck between the fixed points of view of TheDaddy and takemehomegrandma.
Frankly, I'm glad the X1000 made it to production and I'd like to see more AmigaOne boards (based on other processors).
Its not impossible that, in time, prices could come down.
And were Acube to consider slightly more powerful processors, their product line could gain some strength.
Also, Treavor has mentioned the possibility of a future board supporting both OS4 and MorphOS and I know Varisys is interested in Freescale's Qorlq line. If Hyperion and Aeon management really has separated, tyhen one of the issues that might put MorphOS developers off of cooperating with Aeon has been resolved.
In reality, I guess in closer to TheDaddy's point of view then takemehomegrandma. I'd like to see continued development of PPC systems. I have no interest in moving to X86 and would like to see a delay in considering a move to ARM until that platform develops more.
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Seems unlikely as Hyperion (not Acube) controls OS4. Also, Acuibe would hardly profit by a port to Mac hardware.
It seems my memory served me well, ACube did write Moana. Here's a thread from back in the day:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=29520
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In reality, I guess in closer to TheDaddy's point of view then takemehomegrandma. I'd like to see continued development of PPC systems. I have no interest in moving to X86 and would like to see a delay in considering a move to ARM until that platform develops more.
Quite so - I just don't know how likely that's going to be...
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Quite so - I just don't know how likely that's going to be...
Over the last couple of years the community has continued to surprise me.
I bought a Mac Quicksilver is anticipation of the MorphOS port and outfitted it with an SB Live card and an NEC USB 2.0 card (both PC components). When the port was released, everything worked fine.
I spent over a year considering what hardware would suit a new PPC system (even consulting Varisys, who's staff btw discouraged the consideration of the PA6T in favor of the Qorlq line).
When I first heard of the X1000, I was worried that the project would never see fruition as I knew how difficult and expensive an undertaking it was going to be.
And now its here, and it works.
Treavor DOES deserve congratulations. He succeeded against amazing odds.
So what if its expensive?
Don't like the price? Buy an Acube board or a Mac.
No one's forcing you into this.
The naysayers ought to be ashamed.
This is not a negative, its an accomplishment.
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Over the last couple of years the community has continued to surprise me
....
When I first heard of the X1000, I was worried that the project would never see fruition as I knew how difficult and expensive an undertaking it was going to be.
And now its here, and it works.
Treavor DOES deserve congratulations. He succeeded against amazing odds.
So what if its expensive?
Don't like the price? Buy an Acube board or a Mac.
No one's forcing you into this.
The naysayers ought to be ashamed.
This is not a negative, its an accomplishment.
Well said!
Steve
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Seems unlikely as Hyperion (not Acube) controls OS4. Also, Acuibe would hardly profit by a port to Mac hardware.
Acube is a distributor of OS4, hence they would have profited from OS4 for Mac sales. Anyway, it didn't happen.
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Over the last couple of years the community has continued to surprise me.
I bought a Mac Quicksilver is anticipation of the MorphOS port and outfitted it with an SB Live card and an NEC USB 2.0 card (both PC components). When the port was released, everything worked fine.
I spent over a year considering what hardware would suit a new PPC system (even consulting Varisys, who's staff btw discouraged the consideration of the PA6T in favor of the Qorlq line).
When I first heard of the X1000, I was worried that the project would never see fruition as I knew how difficult and expensive an undertaking it was going to be.
And now its here, and it works.
Treavor DOES deserve congratulations. He succeeded against amazing odds.
So what if its expensive?
Don't like the price? Buy an Acube board or a Mac.
No one's forcing you into this.
The naysayers ought to be ashamed.
This is not a negative, its an accomplishment.
Must...not...say it....argh! Damn! I totally agree... :-D
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Yeah OK, anytime a new motherboard of any variety is developed and released qualifies as a true accomplishment. And with people buying these new boards up, hopefully the investors come out ahead. So long as the investors are satisfied as well as the customers who bought the thing, life is good. Nobody knocks that. I work in an industry where it is preferred to sell high end because the low end bottom feeding business format sucks.
For me? Well I can go to ebay and pick up a different hardware variation (complete computer system minus monitor) for $200, install a similar operating system on it, say another $150 to get it registered, and have a hootin' good time. Lets say almost half the cost of the lower performing variation of the so called god operating system, and probably 1/5 the cost of the supposed god operating system running on supposed god hardware. And do you know what? My scraps will run surprisingly well in just about any mode of operation. Let freedom ring and ring for the little guy.
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dnetc RC5-72 on AMD HD5750: 725,256,214 keys/s
ca. 100€ => 7+ MKeys/s per EUR
"Fat" AMD Radeon HD GPUs has plenty of stream processors... Anyway, the latest Radeon HD 7970 has 2048 stream processors.
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Yeah OK, anytime a new motherboard of any variety is developed and released qualifies as a true accomplishment. And with people buying these new boards up, hopefully the investors come out ahead. So long as the investors are satisfied as well as the customers who bought the thing, life is good. Nobody knocks that. I work in an industry where it is preferred to sell high end because the low end bottom feeding business format sucks.
For me? Well I can go to ebay and pick up a different hardware variation (complete computer system minus monitor) for $200, install a similar operating system on it, say another $150 to get it registered, and have a hootin' good time. Lets say almost half the cost of the lower performing variation of the so called god operating system, and probably 1/5 the cost of the supposed god operating system running on supposed god hardware. And do you know what? My scraps will run surprisingly well in just about any mode of operation. Let freedom ring and ring for the little guy.
Yeah, I can get behind that.
My Powermac was assembled from low cost parts source on Ebay.
As were many of the parts in my X86 machine.
Phenom II X 4 955 <$70.
HD4870 <$60.
Asrock MB $35.
Both systems fly.
"Fat" AMD Radeon HD GPUs has plenty of stream processors... Anyway, the latest Radeon HD 7970 has 2048 stream processors.
Yep, I've been using Radeon HD GPUs since the 2400XT (and my current 4870 is still quite competent), The HD 7970 is a monster.
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Treavor DOES deserve congratulations. He succeeded against amazing odds.
So what if its expensive?
Don't like the price? Buy an Acube board or a Mac.
No one's forcing you into this.
The naysayers ought to be ashamed.
This is not a negative, its an accomplishment.
I agree with congratulating Trevor on the X1000 project.
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I agree with congratulating Trevor on the X1000 project.
DItto. I'm sure it was a annoying as hell project with the delays he encountered.
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...Acube for sure deserve a credit. They never hold the truth, they open, they fix their board if something going wrong, they write a drivers and release it without waiting for os updates, that all point to them as to adequate persons. Sadly we can't say the same about everything in amiga world
+1, the Sam/A1-500 boards, have had awesome support from day 1 and have been qetting quicker and more reliable with each update or patch from m3x/acube. This is why these first initial tests are basically meaningless as the software/drivers providing the correct optimization for the new CPU/hardware isnt up to speed yet.
I must admit I still enjoy them because it shows the improvements made over time, heck when I bought my Samflex 2 years ago up until the time I sold it (about 6 monhs ago) I noticed some benchmarks and general speed of the system improving by up to 35%:)
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Treavor DOES deserve congratulations. He succeeded against amazing odds.
So what if its expensive?
Don't like the price? Buy an Acube board or a Mac.
No one's forcing you into this.
The naysayers ought to be ashamed.
This is not a negative, its an accomplishment.
While I understand what you are really saying, this is exactly the mind-set that, when it becomes the norm of a the population, will make sure that an eventual "X2000" announced this year (if such is even remotely conceivable, which it probably isn't) will cost $4,000 or more, come out in 2014 or later, offering some 2009 level performance (provided that PPC is even able to provide something that can deliver some 2009 level performance), instead of making a go for the powerful but cheap mainstream options that's already here! Cheap, powerful HW and a platform growth to come with that, will *never* become an alternative now! That's how things goes in OS4 land, you have been going in the wrong direction since Sam440, it continued some more with Sam460, and now X1000. You will continue down that road, there is no turning back.
Of course Trevor Dickinson's accomplishments is worthy some applauds in the way that he struggled against all odds, etc. But the result is taking the OS4 platform one more step down the wrong road. For this reason, a system like the X1000 shouldn't have happened, it should have been cancelled. What he did was putting a giant meatball in the central square of Ethiopia's capital Addis Ababa, out of reach for practically everyone starving for meatballs but some except few, while the rest of the people would need and want a powerful system to run the OS4 now can't do that. It's out of reach, so some of them leaves, move on. The applauds, the cheering that this is the way to go, will only make sure that even fewer people will get access to any follow-ups to this, because the trend has been to always be bigger, faster, and more expensive; Sam440, Sam460, X1000.
But this suits me fine, actually. Things are the way they are; OS4 is HW oriented, MorphOS is SW/OS oriented. I like this, it's good for MorphOS! :)
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It will be interesting to see how much the X1000 speeds up over the next few years with tweaks and optimization. Graphics drivers and dual core support would both make a huge difference of course, I look forward to it....
...not to forget that we should have Natami to play with too (fingers crossed). Plenty of choice for all.
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instead of making a go for the powerful but cheap mainstream options that's already here! Cheap, powerful HW and a platform growth to come with that
I doubt that would work anyway. Let's face it, the Apple comeback was not due to going x86, it was due to iphones and ipods. That was about style and marketing savvy more than anything else as we all well know.
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While I understand what you are really saying, this is exactly the mind-set that, when it becomes the norm of a the population, will make sure that an eventual "X2000" announced this year (if such is even remotely conceivable, which it probably isn't) will cost $4,000 or more, come out in 2014 or later, offering some 2009 level performance (provided that PPC is even able to provide something that can deliver some 2009 level performance), instead of making a go for the powerful but cheap mainstream options that's already here! Cheap, powerful HW and a platform growth to come with that, will *never* become an alternative now! That's how things goes in OS4 land, you have been going in the wrong direction since Sam440, it continued some more with Sam460, and now X1000. You will continue down that road, there is no turning back.
Of course Trevor Dickinson's accomplishments is worthy some applauds in the way that he struggled against all odds, etc. But the result is taking the OS4 platform one more step down the wrong road. For this reason, a system like the X1000 shouldn't have happened, it should have been cancelled. What he did was putting a giant meatball in the central square of Ethiopia's capital Addis Ababa, out of reach for practically everyone starving for meatballs but some except few, while the rest of the people would need and want a powerful system to run the OS4 now can't do that. It's out of reach, so some of them leaves, move on. The applauds, the cheering that this is the way to go, will only make sure that even fewer people will get access to any follow-ups to this, because the trend has been to always be bigger, faster, and more expensive; Sam440, Sam460, X1000.
But this suits me fine, actually. Things are the way they are; OS4 is HW oriented, MorphOS is SW/OS oriented. I like this, it's good for MorphOS! :)
Congratulations on learning how to express your views without rude and inflamatory remarks, or sarcasm added in with them. They are much more effective at getting your point across than most of your previous posts have been.
I agree that OS4 & MorphOS should be ported to the cheapest and highest performing, readily available PPC hardware. Be that existing, or something that can be produced new. New products will likely not fit this description, because they will most likely be produced in very small quantities and the cost of parts purchased in such small quantities is always higher than parts bought in the hundreds of thousands, or millions of parts. Also, you have to pay for design engineering and testing of any new product, where someone else has already paid for that in any existing product, still in production, or used products.
Right now, it appears that the Apple G5 computers are the most logical choice for the highest performing, cheapest and most readily available PPC computers that OS4 & MorphOS could be ported to. It is yet to be seen if either team will decide to complete work to port OS4, or MorphOS to any G5 models. I hope that both teams choose this path, as my dual 2.7GHz G5 is working just fine running MacOSX & Linux and has replaced my quad core 3.0GHz Core2Quad Extreme Windows computer, as my favorite desktop of choice, while I wait and hope that one or both PPC Amiga-Like OSes make the right choice to support it while they are waiting for some better hardware to come along, or while they work on moving their PPC OS to x86 and/or ARM.
In the mean time I will enjoy using my X1000 and my Dual 1.42GHz G4 PowerMac to run OS4.1.5 and MorphOS2.7 and not worry about what either team is going to do, as nothing I do or say will make any difference in what decisions get made.
@cgutjahr,
If you are going to make logical arguments to back up your questions, it is just going to kill off all discussion in this thread. ;-)
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If you are going to make logical arguments to back up your questions, it is just going to kill off all discussion in this thread. ;-)
:roflmao:
Oh my! Civility breaks out again.
Yes David, I too would very much like to use G5 Macs.
In fact, eventually I wouldn't mind trying to figure out how to get the last models (with PCIe expansion slots) to use PC Radeon HD video cards.
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If AmigaOS 4 ever gets ported to the Mac, it will be doomed to stay on old hardware forever, as the market for new machines would be obliterated- which is exactly what they do not want.
AmigaOS on Mac would be a big mistake IMHO. We should be encouraging new AOS capable machines, not destroying them.
As much as I like Trevor, if new computers for OS4 cannot be designed, manufactured and marketed that are faster/more powerful AND cheaper, or close to the cost of existing used G4 & G5 Mac hardware, they should not be made.
I am happy that I am getting my X1000, but it was not a good business decision and I strongly believe that porting OS4 to used Mac G4 & G5 computers would have been a much better decision that would have resulted in more OS4 users and developers. I hope that Trevor is considering this before he spends more money on any future designs. I want to continue supporting him and I still give him thanks for making the X1000 possible, but I also understand the people that oppose that decision and want cheaper hardware that is almost as powerful.
I don't know what will happen in the future, and given my age, I might not need to worry about what happens with new Amiga hardware in the future. My X1000 will hopefully keep running for the next 15 to 20 years and by that time I should have learned how to program on it pretty good and had a great time doing it, and I won't need, or be interested in anything after that (I'll be 70-75 years old by then).
You youngsters fight out what should happen next, but I still say that porting to the existing G4 & G5 Mac's will increase the number of users and developers faster than any other single event that will ever happen in our remaining community.
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Let's just be happy someone even bothers to make new hardware for the Amiga market...
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Let's just be happy someone even bothers to make new hardware for the Amiga market...
I'm not sure if there's reason for happiness if it means that more cost effective solutions are ruled out, and you get all sort of nasty side-effects instead.
The benefits of "new hw" are limited: with the tiny production runs the price will be sky high. In 24 months the guarantee has run out. The custom HW with very limited production runs and ultra-rare CPU means that if something should break, the replacement parts will be almost impossible to source. Who will be able to handle the repairs for these systems now? In 5 years time?
I'm all for new HW when it makes sense (read: HW that is widely available with reasonable prices, with spare parts and repair possibilities). It doesn't translate well to new PowerPC desktop hardware.
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Let's just be happy someone even bothers to make new hardware for the Amiga market...
That just wrong. If there is enough cheap and good old hw (like macs with g4/g5) there is no point in making new hardware unless it will be faster _a lot_ , and "a bit" more cost in compare with other solutions.
X1000 in end of all , after 2 years of spending time and resources on it, mean about the same speed as macs, a lot higher price, no drivers for every onboard device, no support for that absolutly, and tottally unnecessary xena crap about what there was so much fuzz. Why, why all of this should be so irrational and unlogical when all is coming to aos4 and hw for it ? From one side, everyone cry we need more users and more developers, from another, such kind of strange moves in irrational directions. Only fanatics will buy overpriced hw, which by speed the same as macs, but fanatics will not help OS to grow up => no users/developers => 10 years for implementing single piece of change.
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@Piru
>>I'm not sure if there's reason for happiness if it means that more cost effective solutions are ruled out, and you get all sort of nasty side-effects instead.
Nope. Happy means that until 2006-7 there was nothing to run OS4 on.
If anything goes wrong with the new hardware we'll surely find alternatives, I am 100% behind ACube and their immense efforts.
But, sorry to ask this, why do you care so much? Don't you develop MOS?
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@kas1e
>>That just wrong. If there is enough cheap and good old hw (like macs with g4/g5) there is no point in making new hardware unless it will be faster _a lot_ , and "a bit" more cost in compare with other solutions.
Oh blimey! This is not the case so why keep going on about it? They have decieded to not use old macs for OS4, end of story, let's move on. We have ACube and the X1000. One day maybe things will change and everyone will be running OS4 on a 12 core x86 machine.
>>X1000 in end of all , after 2 years of spending time and resources on it, mean about the same speed as macs, a lot higher price, no drivers for every onboard device, no support for that absolutly, and tottally unnecessary xena crap about what there was so much fuzz.
Well I don't know why they decided to go that way, maybe they wanted to create something new, maybe in the future all those things on the motherboard will be used and supported, maybe they made mistakes, we don't know. Time will tell. But at the moment I wouldn't mind an X1000 just for the simple fact that the cpu is the fastest I can get for OS4.
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@Piru
why do you care so much?
It's good to know all the facts. When you do, you can do informed choices.
Don't you develop MOS?
Yes. Why? I care about lots of things, not just those surrounding MorphOS.
I know you may not like it, but guess if I care?
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It's good to know all the facts. When you do, you can do informed choices.
Yes. Why? I care about lots of things, not just those surrounding MorphOS.
I know you may not like it, but guess if I care?
So it's not to underline how crap OS4 is? Because if it's not the hardware then it must be the software...anyway we agree to disagree. ;)
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I am happy that I am getting my X1000, but it was not a good business decision
Genesi is a company that has tried pretty much everything in the PPC when it comes to netbooks/handhelds, desktops and servers. By "tried" I didn't mean they actually released products in the end however...
The "TetraPower" was a dual 970MP CPU (each CPU being dual core, meaning *quad core* in total) motherboard, that represented the very peak of G5 performance. This would have stomped the X1000 down in the ground, totally run it over performance wise, only using *one* of the CPU's. This was cancelled, IIRC because they didn't manage to secure the support from a big enough customer, and didn't get the support they felt they needed from IBM (Having support from Freescale meant the world for the Pegasos and Efika). In the end, this would mean a way too high consumer price, so there was no point in continuing. IIRC the price would still have been *much lower* than the X1000 though. And this was in *2006*!
(http://farm1.staticflickr.com/99/288369422_1a8fdc1061_m.jpg)
Another project that was cancelled after some initial design work, was the 8641D based motherboard. I guess they couldn't find a way for it to make sense, business wise. Which (allways) is a requirement.
Both the above would have made really nice desktop or server motherboards back in its days (not so much today, of course).
They also had the 8610 targeted for some time. They planned to use this in a Efika/Netbook style motherboard AFAIK. Being (probably) the highest performing G4 CPU's (due to removed bus bottle necks from prior versions AFAIK, which also made the Altivec shine a lot brighter), it would have been quite powerful, compared to the competition in this segment, Example 1 (http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2008/02/working-mpc8610_14.html), Example 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BT1299hgI0). (Later, by a community initiative, Genesi agreed to set up a bounty program to develop a fully open source desktop motherboard based on the 8610 (http://www.power2people.org/projects/profile/43), design by b-plan, free for all to use. It was a bounty program in several steps, meaning it would cost tens of thousands of dollars in the end (can't really remember exactly how much, was it as much as $60,000? Just for fun, try to divide that with 3,000 ;)). Community interest was moot, to say the least, you are free to speculate about the reasons. (Also note that more money than what currently shows was collected, many must have withdrawn their bounties, I for one traded my donation for an Efika MX Smartbook and a Smarttop)).
After the failed 5121e/LimePC effort, they ditched PPC altogether, and went ARM.
I have an Efika MX Smartbook, and an Efika MX Smarttop myself. Nice little things! :)
Since then they have actually "cancelled" another project. After spending lots of time developing a much improved board (and very slimmed down and optimized, cost wise) based on the i.MX53 chip (which is an improved version of the i.MX51 used in the Efika MX), they decided to not pursue that route any further (http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2011/12/holiday-surprise.html). The board is ready, the OS and software support is there, it's a computer completely ready for market. But they have come to the conclusion that at this point, it makes more sense to pursue the i.MX6 instead.
These are just a few examples, many others exists (like the blade server, CPU cards, etc).
My point: Note that this is the very opposite of the "to hell with how much it is going to cost, we need a new, more powerful Amiga(One)" kamikaze strategy?
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let's move on. We have ACube and the X1000.
When will it finally sink in to you, that neither of these are/will be/*can be* an alternative for most people, that for most people, there is *nothing* in the "OS4 world" to move on to?
This isn't a solution, it's a road to death of the OS4 platform. I guess you will notice once you get there. Or then again, maybe not...
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When will it finally sink in to you, that neither of these are/will be/*can be* an alternative for most people, that for most people, there is *nothing* in the "OS4 world" to move on to?
This isn't a solution, it's a road to death of the OS4 platform. I guess you will notice once you get there. Or then again, maybe not...
Running on old macs is a road to death too unless you end up porting to something else, how is that any different for MOS over OS4?
As for the "only release hardware when it makes sense" attitude around this thread, why pay for an '030 accelerator? a MOS license ? or even a flicker fixer. They are all insane prices for most people to pay when you could get a PC for a couple of hundred bucks complete with Windows. Ahh, but that's the point isn't it, we are not "most people".
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Running on old macs is a road to death too unless you end up porting to something else, how is that any different for MOS over OS4?
An easy and good (the best) way of keeping afloat, while searching for new land to settle...
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When will it finally sink in to you, that neither of these are/will be/*can be* an alternative for most people, that for most people, there is *nothing* in the "OS4 world" to move on to?
There can be some "move on to", if only macs ports, then x86 migration, but for that need a lot of developers and time, but year by year user and developers base only shrink. Sometime it can looks like not all that bad, and there is some new users and devs, but in compare how many leave because of all that irrational stuff ..
This isn't a solution, it's a road to death of the OS4 platform. I guess you will notice once you get there. Or then again, maybe not...
:) The answer is:
(http://www.viralchart.ru/Images1/Images/i_want_to_belive/7.jpg)
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An easy and good (the best) way of keeping afloat, while searching for new land to settle...
That depends on your business model and future plans, I don't pretend to know what deals Hyperion are planning for the future. They seem pretty "afloat" right now so no worries from me. Either way, you've got MOS and if your happy with that, well, more power to you I guess. Enjoy it, and if OS4 dies you still have MOS. Either way the Amiga scene has plenty of NG choice right now, X1000, SAM, MOS or AROS, the choice is yours. Just don't go deluding yourself that any of them will be competition for Microsoft, it ain't going to happen.
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There can be some "move on to", if only macs ports, then x86 migration, but for that need a lot of developers and time
I'm sure a clean-slate port (which I think would be most realistic for a "*Next* Next Generation") could be done rather quickly. Most essential programs are already native and still supported, with MorphOS 3.0 many of them will even be included in the OS. More time of course to work on 64-bit, true SMP, true MP, and the other stuff that requires a clean-slate break from the legacy, but that's more of development work, not port.
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So it's not to underline how crap OS4 is? Because if it's not the hardware then it must be the software...
Regarding the less than stellar X1000 performance: There is a problem somewhere. I have no idea if it's hardware or software (*). Hopefully it's a) something that can be fixed b) will be fixed soon. 2nd core support will likely take quite some time though.
*) Someone doing some linux benchmarking would easily be able to tell if the issue is a software one.
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Regarding the less than stellar X1000 performance: There is a problem somewhere. I have no idea if it's hardware or software (*). Hopefully it's a) something that can be fixed b) will be fixed soon. 2nd core support will likely take quite some time though.
*) Someone doing some linux benchmarking would easily be able to tell if the issue is a software one.
I get the feeling Piru would really like to see the X1000 performing well. Nice to see from a MOS developer.
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That depends on your business model and future plans, I don't pretend to know what deals Hyperion are planning for the future.
"Business model"? :lol:
Just don't go deluding yourself that any of them will be competition for Microsoft, it ain't going to happen.
My god, where did I ever give you that kind of impression? Just as a side note, it's hardly the MorphOS crowd that suffer from these kind of delusions, part of going MorphOS and "getting over" the trade mark, is to wake up, smell the coffee, and look at things as the *hobby* it really is...
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it's hardly the MorphOS crowd that suffer from these kind of delusions, part of going MorphOS and "getting over" the trade mark, is to wake up, smell the coffee, and look at things as the *hobby* it really is...
LMAO, I have no delusions I assure you. I intend to hunt for a Peg board in a few weeks time (waiting on the cash right now) so I can run MOS and OS4. I prefer to hedge my bets and eat popcorn.
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Regarding the less than stellar X1000 performance: There is a problem somewhere. I have no idea if it's hardware or software (*). Hopefully it's a) something that can be fixed b) will be fixed soon. 2nd core support will likely take quite some time though.
*) Someone doing some linux benchmarking would easily be able to tell if the issue is a software one.
That sounds like a better idea.
It's such a shame that so many skilled and talented programmers have to work on different operating systems...oh well...
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*) Someone doing some linux benchmarking would easily be able to tell if the issue is a software one.
not if the issue is GCC related.
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In all fairness, I should say that I have meditated some over minator's posts (made both here and on moobunny), and I think he might have a point.
Maybe this will be a dipstick of the OS4 coders capabilities?
(Like the Pegasos 2 was? ;) Sorry, couldn't resist... :lol:)