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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: tabbybasco on January 26, 2012, 12:20:01 AM
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I've been looking at the accelerator boards available for the A3000 and A4000. I've pretty much ruled out a 603e based board as I just as well spend that kind of money on an Acube A500, but what is the difference between an 040@50MHz and an 060@50MHz performance wise? OS3.5 and 3.9 were never optimized to run on the 060. Would it be advantageous to create a hack to allow 3.9 to at least use some of the improvements of the 060 over the 040? I was looking over the data sheets for the 060 last night. It seems to me that in order for the 060 to be compatible with 3.5 and 3.9 it has to act like it's an 040 negating most of the advantages of the 060.
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'040s stopped at 40MHz, I believe, and that'll get you about 44 MIPS.
'060 at 50MHz will give you something like 80 MIPS.
The '060 will be plenty faster, and run a whole heck of a lot cooler.
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Why would a 060 be cooler?
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They run on 3.3VDC as opposed to the '040's 5VDC.
Also, the '060s have power saving features the '040s don't.
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I've been looking at the accelerator boards available for the A3000 and A4000. I've pretty much ruled out a 603e based board as I just as well spend that kind of money on an Acube A500, but what is the difference between an 040@50MHz and an 060@50MHz performance wise? OS3.5 and 3.9 were never optimized to run on the 060. Would it be advantageous to create a hack to allow 3.9 to at least use some of the improvements of the 060 over the 040? I was looking over the data sheets for the 060 last night. It seems to me that in order for the 060 to be compatible with 3.5 and 3.9 it has to act like it's an 040 negating most of the advantages of the 060.
I don't think they make a 603e for 3000 or 4000 anyway. I think the 603e is for A1200. I think Z-III amigas take 604e which is a full 64 bit CPU.
The if software is written to take advantage of chip correctly, it the 060 can perform up to twice as fast as the 040. I think this is on computational heavy heavy routines only(as it has an extra integer unit), and is not likely double the perceived performance of the OS if it were to be optimized for 060. I just don't think it would help the type of tasks the OS is responsible for. A lot of the OS functions are already patched by various CPU specific utilities(CopyMem), CPU Library, an of course you should have the correct datatypes installed for your CPU.
The biggest advantage of the 060 at 50mhz vs the 040 at 50 is that the 060 does not even require any sort of cooling at that speed where as the 040 will probably be unstable anywhere near 50 mhz.
I don't really think 3.5 and 3.9 were ever optimized or even recompiled for any CPU, let alone the PPC. Those versions are just 3.1 with shovelware(some of it PPC). Maybe I'm wrong.
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I don't think they make a 603e for 3000 or 4000 anyway. I think the 603e is for A1200. I think Z-III amigas take 604e which is a full 64 bit CPU.
The if software is written to take advantage of chip correctly, it the 060 can perform up to twice as fast as the 040. I think this is on computational heavy heavy routines only(as it has an extra integer unit), and is not likely double the perceived performance of the OS if it were to be optimized for 060. I just don't think it would help the type of tasks the OS is responsible for. A lot of the OS functions are already patched by various CPU specific utilities(CopyMem), CPU Library, an of course you should have the correct datatypes installed for your CPU.
The biggest advantage of the 060 at 50mhz vs the 040 at 50 is that the 060 does not even require any sort of cooling at that speed where as the 040 will probably be unstable anywhere near 50 mhz.
I don't really think 3.5 and 3.9 were ever optimized or even recompiled for any CPU, let alone the PPC. Those versions are just 3.1 with shovelware(some of it PPC). Maybe I'm wrong.
3.5 and 3.9 have PPC support, 3.9 has WarpOS 5.0 support, according to be back of the case, but doesn't directly use the PPC cpu code. I've looked on SoftHut's website and a Cyberstorm PPC-233MHz w/060@50MHz is listed @ US$900 (what's a nickle among friends?). The Cyberstorm Mark III with 060@50MHz lists for US$635, GVP-M 4060DT 060@50MHz is US$445, an Acube AmigaOne 500 lists at about EU1063 on Vesalia's website. So there comes a point when it's best to say the H--l with it and buy a new AmigaOne. In the Navy the rule of thumb was if it cost more than 1/2 of the replacement cost to repair or upgrade, then it's FUBAR (F'd Up Beyond All Repair).
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I don't think they make a 603e for 3000 or 4000 anyway. I think the 603e is for A1200. I think Z-III amigas take 604e which is a full 64 bit CPU.
604e was 32bit processor. You may be thinking of 620. Or that the external northbridge bus could be used as either 32 or 64bit. The e5500 core in QorIQ P50x0 processors is Freescale/Motorola's first venture into 64bit, followed by e6500 in the upcomign AMP stuff. IBM'g G5, Cell, and PA Semi were the other 64bit PowerPCs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC_600
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC
The if software is written to take advantage of chip correctly, it the 060 can perform up to twice as fast as the 040. I think this is on computational heavy heavy routines only(as it has an extra integer unit), and is not likely double the perceived performance of the OS if it were to be optimized for 060. I just don't think it would help the type of tasks the OS is responsible for. A lot of the OS functions are already patched by various CPU specific utilities(CopyMem), CPU Library, an of course you should have the correct datatypes installed for your CPU.
The biggest advantage of the 060 at 50mhz vs the 040 at 50 is that the 060 does not even require any sort of cooling at that speed where as the 040 will probably be unstable anywhere near 50 mhz.
I don't really think 3.5 and 3.9 were ever optimized or even recompiled for any CPU, let alone the PPC. Those versions are just 3.1 with shovelware(some of it PPC). Maybe I'm wrong.[/QUOTE]
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3.5 and 3.9 have PPC support, 3.9 has WarpOS 5.0 support, according to be back of the case, but doesn't directly use the PPC cpu code. I've looked on SoftHut's website and a Cyberstorm PPC-233MHz w/060@50MHz is listed @ US$900 (what's a nickle among friends?). The Cyberstorm Mark III with 060@50MHz lists for US$635, GVP-M 4060DT 060@50MHz is US$445, an Acube AmigaOne 500 lists at about EU1063 on Vesalia's website. So there comes a point when it's best to say the H--l with it and buy a new AmigaOne. In the Navy the rule of thumb was if it cost more than 1/2 of the replacement cost to repair or upgrade, then it's FUBAR (F'd Up Beyond All Repair).
Well if you have been looking at Software Huts page than you have not really been looking at what is available. What you are looking at is an old webpage that has not been updated in eons. He (Joe) did still sell some Amiga stuff as of about 2 years ago I bought typhoon 1230, but I'd certainly not order anything from there before emailing him.
Really that car analogy is not perfect.
I mean, you are taking two different things, classic Amiga with the huge library of "classic" software and games, the the new system with it's um.. well, um... what was I saying?
Your more saying that its not worth it to put money into a 1968 Dodge Charger because that would cost more than half as much as that 4 door abomination which is the present day Dodge Charger.
If price is your deciding factor, why not just go AROS?
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The 060 with optimized code is more than 2x faster than a 040 with optimized code. The 060 runs 020/030 optimized code (most of AmigaOS) much faster than a 040. The 2 integer units are used a good portion of the time with 020/030 code. The 060 is a very good CPU and what the 040 should have been. The only chink in the 060 armor is that it is a little less compatible than the 040 as it has bigger caches (more speed) and it traps some integer instructions (i.e. 32x32=64) that slows it down and requires a 68060.library to be installed (in SetPatch).
It might be worth considering a fpga Arcade (optional 060 board available soon) and Natami (longer wait, more expensive and faster).
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The only chink in the 060 armor is that it is a little less compatible than the 040 as it has bigger caches (more speed) and it traps some integer instructions (i.e. 32x32=64) that slows it down and requires a 68060.library to be installed (in SetPatch).
I have read that whdload is more compatible with the 060 than 040... It probably disables the CPU cache if needed anyway...
I agree with you that the 060 is a very nice CPU and I would totally agree with you about the new FPGA Amigas being worth waiting for. Minmig 1.1 has matured into a really nice machine.
http://nate.hogranch.com/shapeshifter5.png
Look how my 1200 is 2-3x faster than a (040) quadra 950 in every area except video speed...
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Ok, the consensus is the 060@50MHz is the best option. Now which one is the best. I've seen GVP-M has updated some of their designs. The A4000-60 looks good, but I can't find any information on it. Is it a remake of their 4060DT? or a new design? I had noticed not much action on SoftHut's website, so what are the best hardware dealers out there and are their any others in the U.S. or will I need to deal with U.S. Customs?
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Ok, the consensus is the 060@50MHz is the best option. Now which one is the best. I've seen GVP-M has updated some of their designs. The A4000-60 looks good, but I can't find any information on it. Is it a remake of their 4060DT? or a new design? I had noticed not much action on SoftHut's website, so what are the best hardware dealers out there and are their any others in the U.S. or will I need to deal with U.S. Customs?
Amigakit is the amiga dealer I buy from. They are not going to have an 060 accelerator though. Your only real option is to Amibay.com or eBay. I suppose you could email softhut and see if he has anything for the 4000. He did have some 060 boards but I thought they were for the A2000
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'040s stopped at 40MHz, I believe, and that'll get you about 44 MIPS.
'060 at 50MHz will give you something like 80 MIPS.
The '060 will be plenty faster, and run a whole heck of a lot cooler.
you are wrong...from where you got that numbers?
the 060/50 is not twice faster than the 040/40....it's only about 25% faster
in fact both cpu are idem core and a 040/50 overclocked runs at idem speed on integer like a 060/50
sysinfo reports
040/40 31 mips
040/50 overcloclked 38 mips
060/50 38 mips
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you are wrong...from where you got that numbers?
the 060/50 is not twice faster than the 040/40....it's only about 25% faster
in fact both cpu are idem core and a 040/50 overclocked runs at idem speed on integer like a 060/50
sysinfo reports
040/40 31 mips
040/50 overcloclked 38 mips
060/50 38 mips
That's a more accurate comparison.
At similar clock speeds there is little difference.
Of course the '060 can be clocked even higher.
The EC models (which unfortunately do not include a math co-processor) are good for 75MHz or higher.
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Interesting. The 060 should be about around 1.5-1.7 faster per clock than the 040 for integer operations according to various motorola documentation from back in the day.
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Some of these comparisons are probably a bit misleading vs. real world performance.
In the theory they might be true, but in practice the truth is probably something like a 20-40 percent performance advantage per clock for the '060.
An '040 does 1.1 instructions per clock whereas the '060 does 1.33. The 68060 also has some other acrhitectural advantages that cant really be measures in raw mips.
A 200% increase is possible on occasion, but its definately the exception rather than the rule.
Either way, even in a worst case scenario, @20% increase per mhz, plus the minimum available 20% clock increase its definately noticably faster.
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I have read that whdload is more compatible with the 060 than 040...
I bet that is because of restarting code execution after an exception for some reason. That's a rather obscure compatibility problem.
you are wrong...from where you got that numbers?
the 060/50 is not twice faster than the 040/40....it's only about 25% faster
in fact both cpu are idem core and a 040/50 overclocked runs at idem speed on integer like a 060/50
sysinfo reports
040/40 31 mips
040/50 overcloclked 38 mips
060/50 38 mips
First off, SysInfo is a joke. My CSMK3 does pretty close to 100 MIPS at 75MHz which SysSpeed and Motorola come pretty close to agreeing. The 060 is about 2x as fast as the 040 at the same clock speed but more or less is possible depending on the code. Karlos gives a probable average improvement for code not optimized for the 060. Avoiding certain bottlenecks and choosing instructions that operate in both integer units can easily double the 060 performance.
Major 060 improvements...
2x the instruction and data cache of 040
2 integer units, 1 fpu unit and a branch unit that can operate in parallel
branch prediction cache (many times branches are free)
loops are nearly free (almost 0 cycles for the branch and optional decrement)
mul and div faster (multiply is 2 cycles instead of 040 10 cycles)
shift/rotate is much faster (060 can do 6 in the same time as 040 does 1)
most complex addressing modes are free
FPU cycles improved pretty much across the board
FPU fint and fintrz were added back (used often with fp)
runs much cooler
Advantages of the 040 over the 060...
fetches more instructions of code per cycle than the 060 (large instructions are no problem)
64 bit integer multiply and divide are built in (32*32=64 is common)
You don't need a heater in the winter ;)
@tabbybasco
The fastest Amiga 060 accelerators would be...
1) Natami 060 (only available to developers for now)
2) FPGA Arcade 060 (available soon?)
3) CSMK3 (limited to about 75 MHz but also 30MB/s DMA SCSI, fragile)
4) QuikPac 060 (supports EDO ram so potentially faster memory than CSMK3)
5) Apollo 3060/4060 (overclocks better than CSMK3 but memory is slower, SCSI is poor)
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I've been looking at the accelerator boards available for the A3000 and A4000. I've pretty much ruled out a 603e based board as I just as well spend that kind of money on an Acube A500, but what is the difference between an 040@50MHz and an 060@50MHz performance wise? OS3.5 and 3.9 were never optimized to run on the 060. Would it be advantageous to create a hack to allow 3.9 to at least use some of the improvements of the 060 over the 040? I was looking over the data sheets for the 060 last night. It seems to me that in order for the 060 to be compatible with 3.5 and 3.9 it has to act like it's an 040 negating most of the advantages of the 060.
I agree that the PPC-boards just ain't worth it, a NG Amiga runs software faster and better than the old board (yes I got a CSPPC). It was cool back then but it just isn't worth the cost, the SAM 460 is way more fun IMHO.
The biggest advantage with the 060 isn't just the speed but as mentioned that it runs cooler, no need for a fan and I didn't have any cooler on it at all. Very nice that you don't have to clean it or replace the fan, it just runs. I had an Apollo 4060 and later the CSPPC and what I can say is that the Apollo is a piece of crap! First of all the SCSI-part I couldn't get to work with anything what so ever. I tried all kinds of units and they all locked up the my a4k. Not even the people at the store where I bought it could make it work. It also had some low-power version of the 060 and slower RAM than the CSPPC. When I bought the CSPPC I was going to move over the 060 CPU to save some money only to find out that it wasn't compatible, a different version.
The faster RAM of the CSPPC probably made the biggest difference but perhaps the CPU too, I don't know. Playing ClickBooms Quake was a lot faster on the CSPPC (just talking about the 68k version now, offcourse the PPC version ran a lot faster).
The best card to buy is probably the CyberStorm Mk III with a 060, don't know how expensive it is. The Apollo 4060 is probably ok too if you don't need the SCSI-part but it isn't as fast. Also the 060 can play MP3s at full quality if that is important, the 040 @ 40MHz can not.
Two things that makes all the difference to me is 1. No need for any cooling solutions and 2. it's the fastest CPU there is for classic Amigas if you want to run games etc. Works very well with whdload.
If you can find a board that's not too expensive and also a NG Amiga I would say that you would get the best from both worlds. Sounds like you also like the OS so in that regard an NG Amiga is good for more modern stuff. It also includes an option to run old games through ADF-images and whdload by just double-clicking the icons so it works more or less like a real Amiga, that's what I did on my a4k in AOS 3.9 and I do the same in 4.1 now. It's still emulation though and untill a JIT-version of E-UAE is available 3D-games for example won't run fast enough. Works well with 2D-games though. Just some extra info. I hope that you'll find a nice CPU-board, it's a shame that there are nothing new available :-( .
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SoftHut is listing new GVP-M 4060DT I guess I will have to contact them to see if they have them in stock. GVP-M has it listed as the 4000-060 on their webpage and the link to order on line sends you over to SoftHut.
But I guess I need to get everything up and running again. Versalia Online indicates they have the 2.5" internal diskette drive Maybe by next month I will be online with it; I've never been able to use the X-Surf II yet.