Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Digiman on December 02, 2011, 10:39:58 PM
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Amiga died in 1994 with Commodore.
As much as that makes me angry and sad I can't shake this feeling lately! Waiting for her to return is like waiting for the Galactica to FTL into orbit around the earth.....just a dream :(
Yours Hopelessly
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Amiga died in 1994 with Commodore.
As much as that makes me angry and sad I can't shake this feeling lately! Waiting for her to return is like waiting for the Galactica to FTL into orbit around the earth.....just a dream :(
Yours Hopelessly
Fully agree with you. Used to be a diehard amigan back late 90s and was sworn by it.
Now its just nothing more but a hobby. Get your retro fix and leave it alone.... :) Don't see why some are getting hurt by that idea. Personally I still think the commodore 64 is the best computer in the world. :P
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Amiga died in 1994 with Commodore.
As much as that makes me angry and sad I can't shake this feeling lately! Waiting for her to return is like waiting for the Galactica to FTL into orbit around the earth.....just a dream :(
Yours Hopelessly
Not to compare apples to oranges, but the guys in the "other" camp said Microsoft was dead and buried when they switched focus from DOS to Windows. Apple dudes said the Mac was "finished" when they switched to PPC and later to Intel.
The difference? The clusterf*ck management at Commodore, more or less.
Truth is, back in those days computing was something different, IMO. You had to be somewhat knowledgeable to keep one running, and that gave a sense of pride. Computers were empowering tools, where as now most people just see them as commodity items to get **** done on.
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The anger and sadness is because if the preemptive multi-tasking kernal of Kickstart had millions thrown at it rather than Windows/Mac OS life would be better for ALL
But Amiga died young like Monroe or Dean and she is but a memory.
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I'd say Amiga died when the Amiga brand was split and sold on the fleamarket. Getting it all under one roof again is as plausible as flying Titanic to the moon.
Get over it and treasure what we have! It's a hobby just like any else.
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I think it died even before '94. It had started falling well behind by 1992. The Amiga section in 'Game' was shrinking on monthly basis, and was down to 2 shelves by then after previously having been an entire wall, the multi-format mags' Amiga coverage had gone from extensive to almost nonexistent, software publishers were leaving the Amiga in their droves, but mostly it had lost it's status in the eyes of the public. It was no longer everyone's dream machine. Games players now wanted a Megadrive or a SNES and the few serious users were looking more and more towards Mac and PC.
I don't think there has been another case in the history of home computers that a machine has been released that was so massively head and shoulders above anything else available at the time. It quite literally blew everything else out of the water, nothing could touch it. It was on the cover of all the computer magazines, there were news items about it on the TV, the press were raving about it, everybody wanted one. That C= managed to screw things up so spectacularly is incredible. They really were a very special kind of stupid.
No, it won't come back, ever. I came back to the Amiga scene in about 2001 or so after I heard about this 'new Amiga' that was right around the corner and I'm still waiting for something worth buying ten years later. The best thing to rise from the Amiga's ashes in the last 20 years has been MorphOS (in my opinion), it's the only thing had has really made me think 'wow' the first time I used it.
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I'd say Amiga died when the Amiga brand was split and sold on the fleamarket. Getting it all under one roof again is as plausible as flying Titanic to the moon.
Get over it and treasure what we have! It's a hobby just like any else.
Yes, but I'm not sure that's the fundamental issue. What if it somehow were all under one roof again -- then what? It's not clear that it would really matter. (Or am I missing something essential?)
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The Amiga has never died and never will what has "died" or changed however is the people involved in the scene...
When commodore or whatever else happened that stalled any progress in the Amiga HW and most software occured, I simply just used what I had, I didn't move to any other platform and I still don't own any other computer.
Alot of people formed these different so called "retro" groups and so alot have choosen to stay there, for them the Amiga scene is now about recycling... I've always seen it as an excuse for people to justify or control there spending... "A modern Amiga? Bugger off, for one I'm not spending THAT much on what is merely a glorified PC, hell it doesn't even have a blitter!"
Remind you of anyone?
The Amiga was always going to evolve and the chips change GET IT! Sheesh!
Now it doesn't matter how many of you feel this way, your time with the Amiga is over... it is not going to change the Amiga for us and we don't need people like you... I only wish you'd stop spreading your perceptions because they are incorrect...
I think most people that didn't evolve are the game players... I haven't played games on my Amiga for about 15 years... perhaps there's something in that...
Enjoy your PCs or Macs, you deserve each other, eg if you can use another machine you are a 'computer user' but you're not an Amigan...
disclaimer: I'm not trying to be snarkie elite or anything but I do feel quite strongly about the Amiga... whether or not I'm over the top is speculation but I tell you if everyone that used an Amiga in the past felt like me, the Amiga would be a force to be reckoned with... in anycase if I have my way and business is good over the next few years I'll be joining Trevor too to add fuel to the fire...
You know what Harry said about "you know who"
We've got something worth fighting for ;-)
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My classics still work, still getting upgrades.
MorphOS brings me to the modern age.
Amithlon works wonders.
AROS is very interesting.
OS 4 should soon be affordable hopefully.
I'm happy and I'm afraid of what would happen if it went main stream.
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The Amiga has never died and never will what has "died" or changed however is the people involved in the scene...
When commodore or whatever else happened that stalled any progress in the Amiga HW and most software occured, I simply just used what I had, I didn't move to any other platform and I still don't own any other computer.
Alot of people formed these different so called "retro" groups and so alot have choosen to stay there, for them the Amiga scene is now about recycling... I've always seen it as an excuse for people to justify or control there spending... "A modern Amiga? Bugger off, for one I'm not spending THAT much on what is merely a glorified PC, hell it doesn't even have a blitter!"
Remind you of anyone?
The Amiga was always going to evolve and the chips change GET IT! Sheesh!
Now it doesn't matter how many of you feel this way, your time with the Amiga is over... it is not going to change the Amiga for us and we don't need people like you... I only wish you'd stop spreading your perceptions because they are incorrect...
I think most people that didn't evolve are the game players... I haven't played games on my Amiga for about 15 years... perhaps there's something in that...
Enjoy your PCs or Macs, you deserve each other, eg if you can use another machine you are a 'computer user' but you're not an Amigan...
disclaimer: I'm not trying to be snarkie elite or anything but I do feel quite strongly about the Amiga... whether or not I'm over the top is speculation but I tell you if everyone that used an Amiga in the past felt like me, the Amiga would be a force to be reckoned with... in anycase if I have my way and business is good over the next few years I'll be joining Trevor too to add fuel to the fire...
You know what Harry said about "you know who"
We've got something worth fighting for ;-)
Until the resurrection of something akin to revolutionary A1000 in 1985 ie combination of OS AND Hardware 5x better than best PC or Mac alternative money can buy at 33% of their cost.......then Amiga is dead. At least A1200 had some advantage (eg 14mhz A1200 = 133mhz Pentium to run Super Stardust AGA). SAM/X1000/NATAI/MINIMIG......nothing revolutionary or even partially superior like A1000 or A1200 respictively.
Happy memories but RIP Amiga IMHO.
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Truth is, back in those days computing was something different, IMO. You had to be somewhat knowledgeable to keep one running, and that gave a sense of pride. Computers were empowering tools, where as now most people just see them as commodity items to get **** done on.
100% agree with you, I feel the same way. It was something special, and there were lots of alternatives... all of them different and with their own merits... but now it's kind of boring... same old same old but with more MHz, more RAM, more storage... etc.
Regards,
efrenmgp
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@ Digiman
why wait when you can be enjoying AmigaOS4.1 update 4 and soon OS4.2 on either Peg, Sam, X500, or X1000 (& Netbook soon) right now???
heck you can try Aros for free and MOS on old Apple hardware ...many options to get the Amiga feeling back nowadays
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Amiga died in 1994 with Commodore.
Nooooo!!!!!.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s)
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Until the resurrection of something akin to revolutionary A1000 in 1985 ie combination of OS AND Hardware 5x better than best PC or Mac alternative money can buy at 33% of their cost.......then Amiga is dead. At least A1200 had some advantage (eg 14mhz A1200 = 133mhz Pentium to run Super Stardust AGA). SAM/X1000/NATAI/MINIMIG......nothing revolutionary or even partially superior like A1000 or A1200 respictively.
Happy memories but RIP Amiga IMHO.
Why are you people so obsessed with the specs or comparison of what the Amiga was to the world stage of that time?
It's like the All Blacks were the best rugby team in the world until the rest of the world caught up...
You simply aren't going to get this type of seperation again, well I wouldn't think so but who knows what's around the corner?, the Amiga was just the first back then, something had to be first...
I don't get it and you are arguing from the wrong vantage point... The Amiga will always be the Amiga whether it is technically the front runner or not...
To wish for the same advantage over anything else in the market today as far as performance and price goes and only THEN call it a valid Amiga is something quite laughable
Feel free to use your old Amiga systems and your modern day counterpart but please don't talk about this nonsense again
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These "Amiga is Dead" threads show up every few months here and on other Amiga sites. They are a complete waste of time, unless you want to use one of them to motivate people to change their behavior toward participating in some kind of Amiga development, or project (which is not the case in this thread).
I think that the Amiga community is more alive today than it has been in years. We are still in desperate need of more programmers to write new software for any and all of the different types of Amiga experiences. The Amiga experience means so many different things to so many people still, I don't see how anyone can think that the Amiga is dead.
It is definitely different than it once was, but I would not call it dead. Choose one or more part of the existing Amiga experience that still interests you and become involved. Recruit new users or programmers, learn to program yourself and write new software, or port existing software to any, or all of the different Amiga experience flavors, set up a user group to rekindle the Amiga spirit in your area, etc.
There are dozens of ways to continue to support and enjoy the Amiga, you just need to decide which way you would enjoy and pursue it. The Amiga is what you make of it. If you are sad and disappointed that the Amiga did not fulfill it's ultimate possibilities and was driven into obscurity by the people who mismanaged it, get over it and enjoy what is left. The past is ancient history and can't be changed. Live for today and enjoy what you can. If part of that is any of the Amiga experiences, great. If it is not fun any more, maybe it is time to give it a break and come back to it later. (I am not promoting people leaving the Amiga, but some people probably should from the looks of a lot of the complaining and fighting that goes on in many of the forum sites).
I am enjoying all of my Amiga experiences and looking forward to the future and where it will lead. I am also trying to become more active and pro-active in promoting and helping what is left of the Amiga community.
If you are still waiting for Amiga to make a comeback and become a mainstream competitor again, then yes, I agree that you are only dreaming. Come back to reality and enjoy what we do have right now.
Funny that you should reference Battlestar Galactica. I just started watching the whole series remake again on DVD. It was one of the best SciFi series ever made IMHO and I think it broke a lot of new ground in it's creation and style. It had comedy and drama in good proportions and the acting was pretty good for a TV series that lasted 4 seasons (really 5 or 6, because they only aired half a season during a couple of the years it was broadcast). So, give a Frak and start enjoying your Amiga (what ever flavor they might be) again.
Edit: Totally agree with Slayer that wishing for the Amiga to repeat the 5 times better at 1/3 the price, before anything can be considered an Amiga again is just plain stupid. If that is really your opinion and attitude, it is time to step away for a while and re-asses your life and priorities maybe. Again, computing on any of the Amiga experiences today is what YOU make of it. YOU can make it good, or you can complain and bemoan what "Should Have Been". Choose to do something that will make it better than it is and you will feel more fulfilled than the choice to complain and wish for something that does not exist. I am also a realist and don't claim that any of the Amiga experiences are more than they actually are. I point out their short-comings and try to support people that are working to improve the experience with new software and improved OS work. I hope to do more in the future, but do what I can in the present. Do what you can and you will feel better about it. More people working on the problems will speed a resolution, but won't magically restore the Amiga to it's former glory.
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Commerically, yes its quite stagnant, but there's new software and new ports done daily. Not just this, but a lack of commercial interest doesnt mean that what does exist already suddenly stops working.
Also why must something rise to prominence for it to be fun? I see it time and time again at various amiga forums that people try to come up with ideas for "the return of the amiga".... something I never exactly understood. The amiga didnt vanish. It's still on my desk, I can, and do, still use it. Along with a few of it's brothers that are "new" additions to my amiga hobby in AROS and MOS.
I guess it all comes down to what a person wants and needs to a degree. Personally I enjoy the current offerings (not just NG, but an average classic these days has a harddrive, extra ram, and so on) more than I enjoyed amiga back in it's heyday,.... always been a fan, but I enjoy using the systems for more than just playing games these days, and while its a little behind in some ways vs. the mainstream, I enjoy what Im currently doing with my amiga systems more than I did when predominantely playing floppy based games.
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Until the resurrection of something akin to revolutionary A1000 in 1985 ie combination of OS AND Hardware 5x better than best PC or Mac alternative money can buy at 33% of their cost.......then Amiga is dead. At least A1200 had some advantage (eg 14mhz A1200 = 133mhz Pentium to run Super Stardust AGA). SAM/X1000/NATAI/MINIMIG......nothing revolutionary or even partially superior like A1000 or A1200 respictively.
This, this constant obsession with having a "new Amiga" that must be just so powerful and cheap and powerful that the unwashed masses can't not see the light, this is exactly the attitude we do not need. That's not going to happen any time soon, if ever. It's just not, not unless you take a PC and slap a boing-ball sticker on it and go "IT IS RISEN, AND ASCENDETH INTO HEAVEN TO SIT AT THE RIGHT HAND OF JAY THE FATHER!"
Nor is it necessary. What made the Amiga special wasn't its position in the market/specs-wars of the era - the fact that it was a hell of a deal was just pure gravy. What made the Amiga special was that it was a clever, flexible design that people could sit down, read the docs, and really understand, and come away with the knowledge to really exploit the machine to their own ends, something that showed ever more fruit as time drew on.
That's what the Amiga had that no PC, Mac, or even ARM SoC board can touch. That's what a "new Amiga" needs, not this perennial one-sided dick-measuring contest.
"And that's what the Amiga is all about, Charlie Brown."
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Amiga died in 1994 with Commodore.
As much as that makes me angry and sad I can't shake this feeling lately! Waiting for her to return is like waiting for the Galactica to FTL into orbit around the earth.....just a dream :(
Yours Hopelessly
Funny that this thread should come up today as I was thinking about the very same driving home from work.
To me the Amiga is pure nostalgia.... nothing wrong with that is there?
Its kinda like going to a 20th High School Reunion, fun to reminisce for a few hours to enjoy memories of a past good time but that's it. If you go back thinking that your going to run into your old girlfriend, get the old feelings back just like it was back in the day and pick up right where you left off with your old buddies and carry on, I think that you are dreaming. It was a different place and time and life moves on.
I love tinkering with my Amigas and I love messing with Lightwave,etc. until the nostalgia wears off and I head back to a PC to work with Solidworks or Photoshop on a Mac and get with the times, and then the age of the Amiga starts to show but that is ok, "it's grey hair and wrinkles" gives it its charm.
Don't get me wrong, those that want to enjoy the 'new Amiga', have a "ball" with it. Sorry for the bad pun. :)
I just tend to want to stick with the 'old stuff', with the occassional modern goodie thrown in not to make it new and different but to make it more livable . Those that like their classic hardware, like me, that's cool too, right? It doen't have to be any different then it is, but those of you that want it to be, have at it. To each, their own.....
Yes, someday all of our old hardware will die away - and so will we but that is the way it is. Time to deal with it already!
I just hate the divisions, that is more "Amiga" than anything. I drifted away from the Amiga back in the day because I tired of the constant "Amiga vs. PC bickering", heck most of the Amiga guys I knew were busier making "us" vs 'them" comparison lists than they were enjoying their machines and that was when the Amiga was "really" new. I then came back just in time to see the "MorphOS vs OS4" bickering and now what seems to be the "New Amiga vs. Old Amiga" bickering. Everyone, just enjoy your own thing!
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Nothing wrong with the people that just want to stay with the original Amiga computers like Sandman and many others. Use what you like and stop fighting with others that like something different.
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These "Amiga is Dead" threads show up every few months here and on other Amiga sites. They are a complete waste of time, unless you want to use one of them to motivate people to change their behavior toward participating in some kind of Amiga development, or project (which is not the case in this thread).
I have to agree with this. But considering the thread is now established and we are engaging in discussion I might aswell jot my thoughts down.
To me the Amiga and Commodore will always live on so long as people still enjoy them. But I do feel it's time to let the brands, from a mainstream sales point, die and get the rest it deserves. Instead it's like the computing equivelent of Big Brother it gets dug up, dusted off, new clothes and a spot of makup to cover over the rotting holes from the last time it was abused and then tarted around as if it's the next best thing in computing. I mean how many times have we seen it where someone or some company come along and says they are the best chance for a ressurection and continuation.
To me the pockets of Amiga and Commodore communities dotted around the globe are doing a much better job of this. And, regardless of what some will say, I have a lot of respect for the people involved in such projects as AROS, MorphOS, OS4, X1000, classics and so forth.
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Yep, it's a nostalgia-driven hobby, no more, no less...
Back in the Amiga heyday the whole personal computing landscape was evolving - and the Amiga was at the top of the heap for a shrot time, but thing have changed.
These days computers are more of an appliance, in the same was as a microwave or toaster. In the good old days it was all about pushing the boundaries, the huge leaps from 8-bit micros to 16-bit machines.
There were the first few steps from the blocky, limited colour graphics and 'beep-beep' sounds to photo-realistic GFX and 16-bit CD-quality sound. At around the time the Amiga died, Windows was beginning to reach the technological plateau that we've now reached.
But, back in the late 1980's it was like a brave new world. Each new machine brought with it genuine, significant differences and technological leaps. These days there are still improvements to hardware and capabilities, but it's nothing like the advances we saw back then...
It was great...
Mike.
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No it cant be dead ,its going to make a brilliant come back ,and untill it does we just keep the Amiga on a life support ,
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Amiga died in 1994 with Commodore.
As much as that makes me angry and sad I can't shake this feeling lately! Waiting for her to return is like waiting for the Galactica to FTL into orbit around the earth.....just a dream :(
Yours Hopelessly
Greetings,
In the past, we can never bring back what was gone or blame those who were responsible. It is nothing more than a memory. After watching "Meet The Robinson's" from Pixar awhile back, then I learn to "keep moving forward".
At present, we have AROS, MorphOS, AMIGA OS4 and WinUAE to keep all that what Commodore or Almighty JM has left us. Maybe one day, we'll have IOS and Adroid to look forward to.
In the future, if the star trek device called Replicator becomes real, I'll replicate me all the old Amigas in the pasts. Given that if I'm still around to see it though. :P
Regards,
GiZz72
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Hi,
I'm really new to the Amiga stuff. When I was a boy,I used a MSX and then a MSX 2, but the teacher who inspired me my software career switched from a MSX to an Amiga. Recently, as we are still in touch more than twenty years later, he spoke to me about his Amiga in one of our rare and long discussion about the good old times.
As a coincidence, I was precisely thinking about the difference between our cumbersome present system and the old ones that were more efficient and responsive in my recall.
One month or so ago, I decided to give a try to what appeared to me as the best representative of this era : Amiga. Even if I didn't know anything about it.
And let me tell you, I'm not disappointed.
A system that has hundreds of time less power than today's computer and show so much responsiveness and qualities, was like discovering a new pyramid in Egypt.It's old but it's totally amazing even with today's standard.
And let me tell you something, I don't play with my Amiga. I consider it as a real machine that can be used as an alternative to PC for ordinary tasks as writing document, creating images, ...
The software are responsive and cool to use (no need of a six months learning curve to be efficient). These are the two main qualities I'm seeking in softwares. And they're really inspiring me from a conception point of view.
Today, I really wonder why the next step has not been done.
You find CUSA that sells old C64 that can be considered like this only from an outside point of view. And you find Minimig project that proposes a close hardware clone of A500 but without the old case. Why not join the two approaches and resurrect our machine for good ?
I'm even sure there are clever people around here that could participate in this attempt.
I know evolution has brought AmigaOS and alike but it's like transistor amplifier compared to tube ones. They don't necessarily target the same customers.
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For me the Amiga was the most logical upgrade from my Commodore 64. I never got an Amiga until late 1989.
I remember taking it upstairs at Angus and Robertsons and getting to do the 1mb chip ram with the Angus chip.
I remember paying $499 for a 2 megabyte (sidecar type) upgrade giving me a total of 3 megabytes enough to run some of the larger Eric Schwartz cartoons.
I also remembered creating a Fly By of Mon Olympus in Vista and taping it on to a VCR. Boy was it slow rendering....days worth.
I loved AMOS (and now use Dark Basic Pro as it is so similar)
Then came the Amiga 1200, another logical upgrade.....I also got a Microbotics 68030 at 50mhz with 2 megabytes. Why only 2 megabytes, well that is all I could afford as the 2 megabytes upgrade was $199 due to a earth quake in Japan at the time.
However the PC started having some great games, such as Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe and what tied me over was X-Wing. Both these games never got released on the Amiga.
When Commodore went bust, I thought the issue would be sorted out in a few months, not years (afterall we're talking about Commodore who gave us the C64, how could they disappear)....so I waited but I gave up waiting after six months or so and sold everything!
I still kept my eye open on the net about the Amiga.....but sadly nothing progressed.
I have an Amiga CD32 and an Amiga 1200 (I got a 1084 from the tip shop the other week for $20), they're not a bad machine, considering they're now almost 20 years old and still going. I fire them up but compard to a modern pc, they're a stark reminder though of how far we've come.
As people say they're a hobby.......I have a soft spot for the Amiga and the C64. It was Deluxe Paint that introduced me to computer graphics art, it was Audio Engineer and Octamed that led me to produce computer music, it was Vista that got me introduced to 3D landscapes, it was Imagine that got me into 3D modelling, it was AMOS that got me into programming and it was all the great games that made me think only Amiga makes it possible.....for a time it was.
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I think the Amiga is an amazing hobby, more of a time machine. I read every Amiga book and thing I could get my hands on, dreamed of owning some of the things in the ads in Amiga World. It was never to be; I could not afford even a basic toaster, no less TBCs and flyers etc. But through the power of ebay I found myself drawn in to build the monsters of my youth. (One seller told me of this magical place called Amiga.org.):) I have several A2000 toasters that I have bought on ebay, some just parts and I now have 3 operational toasters. I have found a blue screen Croma key overlay slider that works. I spend most of my time looking for content like Eric Swartz Amy cartoons, and things to genlock to. The Amiga back in the day was the third option, and you could see by the dwindling shelves of things available that it was a losing platform. I thought Apple would die, but it had those expensive boutiques that kept them alive I guess; who could afford that stuff? The amiga was cheap compared to other computers, but not affordable until the A500. By then it was dead, just by dumb luck did commodore get to live on. If the book On the Edge is true, screwing over K-mart, Computer City, and Sears killed any chances of lighting stricking twice C64 style.
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The Amiga has never died and never will what has "died" or changed however is the people involved in the scene...
When commodore or whatever else happened that stalled any progress in the Amiga HW and most software occured, I simply just used what I had, I didn't move to any other platform and I still don't own any other computer.
Alot of people formed these different so called "retro" groups and so alot have choosen to stay there, for them the Amiga scene is now about recycling... I've always seen it as an excuse for people to justify or control there spending... "A modern Amiga? Bugger off, for one I'm not spending THAT much on what is merely a glorified PC, hell it doesn't even have a blitter!"
Remind you of anyone?
The Amiga was always going to evolve and the chips change GET IT! Sheesh!
Now it doesn't matter how many of you feel this way, your time with the Amiga is over... it is not going to change the Amiga for us and we don't need people like you... I only wish you'd stop spreading your perceptions because they are incorrect...
I think most people that didn't evolve are the game players... I haven't played games on my Amiga for about 15 years... perhaps there's something in that...
Enjoy your PCs or Macs, you deserve each other, eg if you can use another machine you are a 'computer user' but you're not an Amigan...
disclaimer: I'm not trying to be snarkie elite or anything but I do feel quite strongly about the Amiga... whether or not I'm over the top is speculation but I tell you if everyone that used an Amiga in the past felt like me, the Amiga would be a force to be reckoned with... in anycase if I have my way and business is good over the next few years I'll be joining Trevor too to add fuel to the fire...
You know what Harry said about "you know who"
We've got something worth fighting for ;-)
I know all that but unless a computer with an advantage in both price and performance with the most powerful PCs money can buy is produced it's NOT AMIGA. That is my point. The X1000 and SAM460 are lumps of sh1t compared to the hardware of a £500 i7 PC. The only thing bad about PCs or Mac is the OS (OSX/Linux/Windows ALL a load of crap sorry) but then OS4/MoS doesn't even have a sophisticated web browser in 2011 so yeah whatever. Fail on price/Fail on Hardware/Fail on OS (MoS or OS4).
Things like SAM460 and x1000 are like the $4000 CGA PC in 1985 vs the $1500 Amiga 1000. That's the point. Less sophisticated applications for the OS/slower/cost more than competing architecture. Explain to me how we have 'Amiga' today?
We have some expensive OS4 boxes and that's it, and as OS4 neither has games of the quality of xbox360/PS3 or has applications as sophisticated as Windows has (Chrome/Office/Amazing diversity of codecs and players) and barely trumps a 3ghz Pentium 4 worth about £25 on ebay.....
Amiga is dead.....long live memories of what once was (but people were so stupid in 1985-87 they bought a Mac or PC instead STILL the losers!)
The only people who have absolutely slam dunked PC technology in price performance on the day of launch since those days have been SEGA/Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft with their various consoles. The Xbox360 played Need for Speed Most Wanted in a far more sophisticated way than the £1000 'Gaming PC' rigs of the day on the day of launch for 1/3 the price.
SO WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT USING PC TECHNOLOGY IN A MORE EFFICIENT INTELLIGENT WAY AS AMIGA WOULD HAVE HAD TO ADAPT TO DO THEN ANY NEW AMIGA SHOULD USE IBM XENON CPU/SUPERIOR MEMORY BUS ARCHITECTURE TO MAC OR PC/TOP END GRAPHICS CHIP.
This is what you expect from Amiga successor worthy of the name, better AND cheaper than £1000 PC....not dead end CPUs inside machines costing more and offering the power of a PC people throw away for recycling.
I point out games because games today take more resources than any business activity or creative activity, so if you can't beat current PC gaming of the quality of 64 player persistent online world of Battlefield 3 for even the same price it will never be Amiga...just an OS4 compatible box.
OS4 <> AMIGA. It is just some cash cow Hyperion have milked until the teats have become dry and diseased. (Ditto for MoS)
I AM an Amigan because I was there when A1000 came out and I've never spent so much of my hard earned wages on a single machine. And also it is the only time I was 1000% happy with my machine. So if nobody makes a TRUE SUCCESSOR TO A1000 in 1985 situation and I need to use a PC because the only choices are SAM460 or x1000 then I'm sorry that's the biggest load of BULL$HIT ever. I waited for ESCOM then Amiga Inc/Gateway to build a true successor, nothing ever happened. A 3ghz P4 power level £1200-2000 computer with an incomplete and undeveloped OS like OS4 is NOT AMIGA.
AS A TRUE AMIGAN I CAN ONLY BUY SOMETHING THAT HAS SUPERIOR FEATURES TO A £1000 i7 PC IN PURE SPEED AND SIGNIFICANTLY IMPROVED OS FEATURES/APPLICATIONS AND COSTS LESS ;)
(MoS has same problems as OS4 and even worse runs on old crusty Apple hardware with Apple logos all over the box...great!)
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SO WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT USING PC TECHNOLOGY IN A MORE EFFICIENT INTELLIGENT WAY AS AMIGA WOULD HAVE HAD TO ADAPT TO DO THEN ANY NEW AMIGA SHOULD USE IBM XENON CPU/SUPERIOR MEMORY BUS ARCHITECTURE TO MAC OR PC/TOP END GRAPHICS CHIP.
You sound like Barry.
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This thread must be coming from St. Elizabeth's darker wards....
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Maybe it was better this way. If it was still in the big markets it would probably have gone down to a bloated pice of cr*p just like most other comercial OSes available.
Also, the left community might not always be heaven but it better than having to deal with thousands or millions of empty posts of wanna be experts (PC forums...).
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And if I type in all caps people will believe the crap I spout because I am a "True Amigan".
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This, this constant obsession with having a "new Amiga" that must be just so powerful and cheap and powerful that the unwashed masses can't not see the light, this is exactly the attitude we do not need. That's not going to happen any time soon, if ever. It's just not, not unless you take a PC and slap a boing-ball sticker on it and go "IT IS RISEN, AND ASCENDETH INTO HEAVEN TO SIT AT THE RIGHT HAND OF JAY THE FATHER!"
Nor is it necessary. What made the Amiga special wasn't its position in the market/specs-wars of the era - the fact that it was a hell of a deal was just pure gravy. What made the Amiga special was that it was a clever, flexible design that people could sit down, read the docs, and really understand, and come away with the knowledge to really exploit the machine to their own ends, something that showed ever more fruit as time drew on.
That's what the Amiga had that no PC, Mac, or even ARM SoC board can touch. That's what a "new Amiga" needs, not this perennial one-sided dick-measuring contest.
"And that's what the Amiga is all about, Charlie Brown."
Commodorejohn, thank you for saying exactly what I'm thinking much better than I would be able to say it. Your post should be stickied and automatically pop up when anyone visits A.org.
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Hi, all! What introduced me to Amiga was this ad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXhmL8XZcFM
My folks bought me the Commodore Amiga 500 because of this girl, I was in love with her. And the computer proved so excellent. This video brings out so much nostalgia in me. :rolleyes:
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Yep, it's a nostalgia-driven hobby, no more, no less...
It's not to everyone. Some people have classic machines as their only computers, and I personally have always had an Amiga, no nostalgia here.
Anyway, what's so nostalgic about Amiga computers? They're modern machines: Just a box, a keyboard and a monitor. It's still exactly the same with desktop peecees, they're just faster.
Nope, never understood this nostalgia thing when applied to modern technology.
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It's not to everyone. Some people have classic machines as their only computers, and I personally have always had an Amiga, no nostalgia here.
Anyway, what's so nostalgic about Amiga computers? They're modern machines: Just a box, a keyboard and a monitor. It's still exactly the same with desktop peecees, they're just faster.
Nope, never understood this nostalgia thing when applied to modern technology.
I totally respect your opinion but have to disagree.
The Amiga is not modern... its a 20+ yr old system, an old system with charm, mind you, that many still love.
My smartphone which could probably blow-away my CPPC A4000T, that's modern. Heck, surfing the web for the most part is a challenge for our classic hardware, IMHO. Like I mentioned in my previous post, I might tinker around with Lightwave, ImageFX, etc. but when I need to get real work done I fire up Solidworks, Photoshop,etc. Classic Amiga. besides a hobby, is only really capable of less complex tasks.
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It's different for everybody, of course... but for me Nostalgia doesn't enter into it in the slightest.
I've tried Windows, Linux, MacOS, Solaris... you name it, I've probably tried it. But AmigaOS is the only OS I got into, and still enjoy using it.
That's what Amiga is about, enjoyment. And I enjoy using AmigaOS 4 (and AOS 3) most, so I use that. Nothing to do with nostalgia.
To be quite honest, and I don't want this to sound rude, but I don't care if a smartphone can run folding programs at 10x the speed of an Amiga while singing Beethoven and finding the price of tea in China - it's not a computing experience to rival my Amigas, so I shall stick with my Amigas. The power, price and abilities of other systems is irrelevant as they have no bearing on my enjoyment of my Amiga, if you see what I mean.
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It's different for everybody, of course... but for me Nostalgia doesn't enter into it in the slightest.
I've tried Windows, Linux, MacOS, Solaris... you name it, I've probably tried it. But AmigaOS is the only OS I got into, and still enjoy using it.
That's what Amiga is about, enjoyment. And I enjoy using AmigaOS 4 (and AOS 3) most, so I use that. Nothing to do with nostalgia.
To be quite honest, and I don't want this to sound rude, but I don't care if a smartphone can run folding programs at 10x the speed of an Amiga while singing Beethoven and finding the price of tea in China - it's not a computing experience to rival my Amigas, so I shall stick with my Amigas. The power, price and abilities of other systems is irrelevant as they have no bearing on my enjoyment of my Amiga, if you see what I mean.
The reason I mentioned the smartphone comparison is to describe where "the Amiga fits in for me."
Its like my buddy and his classic car. It's his favorite thing in the world and there is nothing that he would rather work on and drive. But when he needs to drive to work or run out in the middle of the night, in a snowstorm, to pick up a gallon of milk at the grocery store he wouldn't even consider driving it and that is the time it really manifests itself as a hobby.
That is the same way that I feel about the Amiga, fun to play with, tinker with and enjoy but its time being relevant to "the real world" as a functional tool, for the most part, sadly has passed. It just has and thinking that is still a real player is dreaming.
When I need to get real work done, "like listening to Beethoven while finding the price of tea in China", as you say, I don't want a "computing experience." That is the time I just want to get the job done, which unfortunately most of the time the Amiga just can't do no matter what kind of "experience" I want.
After the real stuff is done, I can get back to playing with the Amiga, which I really love to d0....... as my hobby. I love to visit the past, I just don't want to try to live there.
That is my opinion. :)
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I totally respect your opinion but have to disagree.
The Amiga is not modern... its a 20+ yr old system, an old system with charm, mind you, that many still love.
Actually, the word modern has two meanings in this context. The meaning that's apparently used most often is 'contemporary'. I should have looked that up :)
Anyway, what I mean is that the early eighties was more or less the start of the modern computer era. Before that time, computers were usually annoying to use. During the early eighties we saw machines that were nothing more than keyboard shaped boxes which you hooked up to the TV and of you went.
In this sense, todays tower systems are just the same: A box with chips hooked up to a monitor and your done. It's not about the speed, todays machines are simply faster, but the underlying principle of how the machine is used, and that has remained exactly the same.
Do not get performance into this. Take the Cray 1 (super computer from 1976. I think it gave you Pentium II performance for certain tasks. But it's a huge machine (and needs other bits as well, needs a hole room), annoying to use and has a power consumption of 15 kilowatts. This is a typical machine from before the modern computer age. Machines like the C64, Spectrum, and other 8bit systems put an end to this primitive way of doing things. Humongous improvement. After that we only got more of the same (except for laptops, pocket and tablet computers).
Just wanted to make it clear that I didn't mean contemporary or up to date, but being relevant in a certain period of time ;)
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Funny to see Photoshop used as an example of why the amiga isnt modern anymore....
I was doing a game creation centric 3 year course at uni a couple of years ago (c/c++, 3ds max, ai programming, flash, actionscript, photoshop, etc., etc.).
For the 2d graphics part I mostly worked from home on my amiga systems using amiga software while the vast, vast majoprity (everyone except one other guy who used psp) used Photoshop cs3 (maybe 4, but I think it was 3, was a few years ago) and lo and behold who do you think got the best marks for that class? Me :)
The comments attached to my work were something along the lines of, "nice professional, interesting work. A class above the usual generic looking work I receive".
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Tools are just tools, though - I'd imagine the big difference is your classmates spent their time Googling "kewl photoshop tr1ckz!!1" while you actually focused on making something.
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Well that the thing,... tools are just tools, it's down to the user what he does with them. There's plenty of instances where a lack of bloat can be a plus and can produce decent, different results. Look around the net, there's a heck of a lot of stuff you can pick the tools used, and more often than not this isnt a good thing.
Best tool for the job, and in my humble opinion sometimes the amiga, even in this day and age is still up to the task (especially now that something akin to "retro" has become mainstream again).
Although I do have a decent Windows machine (i7-2600k, gf 570gtx), and actually enjoy it I'll still turn to my a1200 or amithlon/os3.9 box 1st as often as not.
Long story short, it all comes down to what a person does with a machine, and how well they know it and its software when it comes to how productive a person can be. I dont say this as a slur, but I do wonder how many people do much more than browsing, playing games, watching movies and a bit of tinkering sometimes.
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Quite so.
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>Maybe it was better this way. If it was still in the big markets it would probably have gone down to a bloated pice of cr*p just like most other comercial OSes available.
Hasn't it? Doesn't it now require some insane amount of RAM, 96Mb IIRC!?
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You sound like Barry.
I'm shocked too, yes he does indeed a bit (albeit scarily!). :lol:
(As you'll probably notice, this is my first post on A.org, so hi guys...nice to meetcha y'all!). :)
Using an Amiga is an experience....having been a computer enthusiast for over 30 years and a really really early Amiga user myself (back in '85 was the first time I fell in love with an A1000, given by a friend who was a computer reviewer in the UK) I can never shake off that feeling of switching on the machine and just look at and be excited by what was the build quality (solidity and usability) of what was 'Amiga'. I've gone through many computers since then (mostly Atari STs, consoles, PCs and Macs) but the one computer that I would never forget (and always cherish) was that veritable white A1000. The design was 10 years ahead of Power PC Macintoshes at the time and 20 years ahead of multimedia PC designs (that I know of). Even Windows didn't get a reasonable (usable) interface until Win 95 came out - so Commodore had it all (for a time). It was only the misfortunate software launch timings and financial mismanagement that caught them by surprise.
More than this, I feel that it was probably lack of engineering expertise or architecture 'roadmapping' that got Commodore where it hurt. Had someone like Steve Jobs been sought for advice or brought in to help direct or take a stake in the company, perhaps things would have looked different for Commodore since then.
But whatever, the past is the past, and facts cannot be changed. The most important though, even though the parent company is no longer here - is that the community today for Amiga is still alive...this is the most important. Without everyone's pitching in from many angles over the years (be it the emulators, OSes, spare parts/upgrades, Minimig hardware etc.), I don't think it could survive this long. Most important now is working together so that the community can benefit.
That said, I was a little saddened by Amiga Inc's stance against CUSA in not allowing AROS to be used and ported over to a modern PC machine bearing the words 'Amiga' - if it had, CUSA wouldn't have needed to go down the path of making their own Linux distro and this would have made everyone happy (that we get a 'modern' Amiga using the latest industry equipment on an established OS). I am not saying this because I am also a CUSA regular - it's just the truth. Perhaps if Amiga Inc. had taken a stake in the AROS project, it could have saved both companies. Amiga Inc. should learn to be more flexible I feel business-wise and not be so stubborn...look what happened with Apple when they moved over to Intel chips from Motorola. Nobody complained when they did...
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@Minuous
No, it hasn't. It's true AOS 4 uses more RAM to start up but that RAM is actually used usefully, not wasted. And the reason the apps seem to take up more RAM is simply because most of them are ports. If you use designed-for-AOS4 software like SimpleMail, it's almost as lean as AOS3.
@Middleman
First: welcome! :)
Second: I have to take issue with a tiny point, but please let's not let this get into a C=USA bashing thread - there's plenty of room for them elsewhere... :)
That said, I was a little saddened by Amiga Inc's stance against CUSA in not allowing AROS to be used and ported over to a modern PC machine bearing the words 'Amiga' - if it had, CUSA wouldn't have needed to go down the path of making their own Linux distro and this would have made everyone happy (that we get a 'modern' Amiga using the latest industry equipment on an established OS). I am not saying this because I am also a CUSA regular - it's just the truth.
That's not what happened, I'm afraid. There were quite a few reasons why C=USA didn't use AROS.
Barry is correct in that AROS isn't ready for mainstream workstation markets - he's not in it for a nostalgia OS, just a nostalgia case. He wanted a modern compatible system that looked old, which is fair enough. AROS is excellent, but I don't think anyone would pretend it's ready for the professional market yet, not least because of the lack of software.
The other reason, though, is that Barry obviously doesn't like AROS. He's made a number of very scathing and undeserved comments about AROS, which shows what he really thinks.
Blame Amiga Inc for many things, but not for this one, this is C=USA's choice. Remember they're not aiming at Amiga users, they're aiming at PC users who just like a bit of nostalgia.
A shame - if they'd run AROS I'd probably have been interested. If Amiga Inc had begged Barry to use AROS, he'd still have gone with Linux, I'm absolutely certain.
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@Middleman
First: welcome! :)
==Thanks! Although I've not posted much before I do come here and have a bit of a gander sometimes. I think it's the mini projects that interest me most...
Second: I have to take issue with a tiny point, but please let's not let this get into a C=USA bashing thread - there's plenty of room for them elsewhere... :)
==Haha don't mention it! I'm just here to get away from it all and enjoy the vintage atmosphere! ;)
That's not what happened, I'm afraid. There were quite a few reasons why C=USA didn't use AROS.
Barry is correct in that AROS isn't ready for mainstream workstation markets - he's not in it for a nostalgia OS, just a nostalgia case. He wanted a modern compatible system that looked old, which is fair enough. AROS is excellent, but I don't think anyone would pretend it's ready for the professional market yet, not least because of the lack of software.
The other reason, though, is that Barry obviously doesn't like AROS. He's made a number of very scathing and undeserved comments about AROS, which shows what he really thinks.
Blame Amiga Inc for many things, but not for this one, this is C=USA's choice. Remember they're not aiming at Amiga users, they're aiming at PC users who just like a bit of nostalgia.
A shame - if they'd run AROS I'd probably have been interested. If Amiga Inc had begged Barry to use AROS, he'd still have gone with Linux, I'm absolutely certain.
==You think so? To me it seems he was always keen to get Aros running and only running into legal trouble at the last minute..
Anyways there seems to be a lot going on the Amiga-scene at the moment. I have my eye on the FPGA Replay....I think it's fantastic if you ask me.
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==You think so? To me it seems he was always keen to get Aros running and only running into legal trouble at the last minute..
Allow me to quote the man himself:
digitex wrote:
Played OUR cards right??? You're kidding, off course! I'd rather have a double root canal without novacaine, performed by a blind dentist using a rusty nail, before I would foist any of these cludgey, archaic, half baked so called OS's, like AROS, etc. on my worst enemy, let alone a customer.
'nuff said, really. :)
Anyways there seems to be a lot going on the Amiga-scene at the moment. I have my eye on the FPGA Replay....I think it's fantastic if you ask me.
That's the great thing - there's a lot of in-fighting at the moment which is annoying in itself, but the fact that we have something to argue about is fantastic.
This is part of why I don't understand the C=USA lot, though - with so much going on in Amigaland with AOS 4.2/X1000, AROS always coming strong and MorphOS 3 coming soon, there's a load of exciting things around the corner, and I don't mean just a blue linux distro in an old-style case. I guess it's horses for courses though.
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I don't agree that the Amiga is dead. If for nothing else, the amount of traffic on this site, Amibay, EAB, etc. should be proof enough that there are a steamy pant load of people out there not only still using Amiga's, but, buying and selling amongst themselves, talking about them, working together solving problems and, of course, having conversations just like this one, which center around the Amiga.
Personally, I prefer things the way they are now. Commodore is out of the picture, which is good because they were idiots. Amiga inc. appears to be making tablets or something like that now, which is fine since the Amiga inc brand seemed to do little for the community anyway. Gateway failed the Amiga, thankfully, given the trash they peddle, I cant imagine the junk they would have slapped together with the Amiga name on it.
The Amiga feels like more of a community driven architecture now, and there are people making things for it here and there, otherwise, AmigaKit wouldn't have anything to sell.
It is true that people are needed to write software for it and it's fine to get frustrated and voice your anger about that shortcoming. However, if you really feel that strongly, don't just complain, do something about it. Grab a compiler from somewhere and start learning.
On paper the idea of having some big company come along and start making Amiga's again might sound good, but, is that what you really want? Take a look at the goofy Amiga inc. site, to each his own I guess, but, I am not sure that I would want my beloved Amiga OS to be boiled down to a weak tablet OS. It's just not fitting. What's next? An Amiga phone perhaps? (aPhone? hmmm ...)
I guess the old saying is really true, you should watch what you wish for, you just might get it.
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...but then OS4/MoS doesn't even have a sophisticated web browser in 2011 so yeah whatever. Fail on price/Fail on Hardware/Fail on OS (MoS or OS4).
...(MoS has same problems as OS4 and even worse runs on old crusty Apple hardware with Apple logos all over the box...great!)
Hey! I like Odyssey. Except for Flash support (which is rapidily becoming irrelevent) it has all the features I need in a browser.
And MorphOS also runs on Pegasos systems (although I'll take the "crappy" Mac).
I also have a four core X86 system, but I find myself using my MorphOS system far more often.
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Allow me to quote the man himself:
'nuff said, really. :)
==Ahh, that thing....I remember reading that too somewhere. He was saying it out of frustration (if I remember correctly) because he'd been refused once by the Aros team (who I heard had refused his offer - remember their site did say to have Amigas running Aros?). Subsequently comparing Aros with Linux brought him to the conclusion that maybe Aros just wasn't good enough. Couple that with a bad day at the office and everyone at A.org jumping on him... ;)
Well I admit having been on their site for almost the past year, Barry is not a very good communicator. :) But I understand where he's coming from when he says this. He's a busy man trying to run a computer company trying to make his machines work and customers happy. You must admit it's not an easy thing. But I do agree it shouldn't have been taken out on them like that.
That's the great thing - there's a lot of in-fighting at the moment which is annoying in itself, but the fact that we have something to argue about is fantastic.
This is part of why I don't understand the C=USA lot, though - with so much going on in Amigaland with AOS 4.2/X1000, AROS always coming strong and MorphOS 3 coming soon, there's a load of exciting things around the corner, and I don't mean just a blue linux distro in an old-style case. I guess it's horses for courses though.
==Well I can explain this. A lot of us over there all are like you guys. As former users we want a new Amiga so badly we are happy to cut off our right arm for one. =)) But we also realise the limitations of the legacy systems (which we call Classic Amiga) and want to make improvements to it using what tech is available now (and in abundance today) to make a PC-based Amiga a real alternative to a Dell or Mac. What we don't want is for Commodore to lose itself again through under-supported initiatives ie. hardware or software developers/manufacturers that would force it to go out of business like the old days. This is something I know they are quite adamant about.
As for the retro Amiga, well Leo and Barry have abandoned this idea for now. Barry has said back in September he is planning on a totally BRAND NEW A500 in the coming months based on the design of RJ Marrett's Amiga concept. If anything this should be quite an exciting development for the community (for a long while since when C= launched the Amiga). It comes out next year, so hold onto your hats folks, you ain't seen nothing yet! :)
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Well I can explain this. A lot of us over there all are like you guys. As former users we want a new Amiga so badly we are happy to cut off our right arm for one. =)) But we also realise the limitations of the legacy systems (which we call Classic Amiga) and want to make improvements to it using what tech is available now (and in abundance today) to make a PC-based Amiga a real alternative to a Dell or Mac.
I just don't understand this. Obviously there are people there with a lot of real feeling for CBM/Amiga systems - so why are you following a delusional narcissist who's said outright that he doesn't care about the CBM/Amiga community?
Barry has said back in September he is planning on a totally BRAND NEW A500 in the coming months based on the design of RJ Marrett's Amiga concept.
Barry says a lot of things.
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My classics still work, still getting upgrades.
MorphOS brings me to the modern age.
Amithlon works wonders.
AROS is very interesting.
OS 4 should soon be affordable hopefully.
I'm happy and I'm afraid of what would happen if it went main stream.
XDelusion, I like your attitude! Your thoughts echo my own.
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Actually, it's not A.Inc that disallowed AROS to be used. This aggressive attitude shown was after it became clear that the Hyperion/A.Inc courtcase stipulated A.Inc (and inherritently C-USA) werent allowed to release any AmigaOS style OS.
Granted, there's some truth in the fact that none of the NG options are ready for the mainstream yet, but the aggression towards AROS was inspired more by the realisation they couldnt use it even if they wanted to coupled with the fact that they also discovered it wasnt going to be a free ride (notice how theyre only using other peoples work that costs them nothing?).
Due to this I really dont see C-USA getting many supporters here in the amiga world. I personally couldnt care less enough to bash them, but the simple fact is nothing they produce will be anything resembling the amiga people enjoy. They can fine tune thier linux distro until the cows come home, and put it into an amiga style case, but this doesnt stop it being a linux distro and sharing nothing with the amiga people enjoy.
Hypothetical, but I also disagree that current limitations in amiga based oses mean it needs to be disregarded and started again for it to advance. Funny enough these "words of wisdom" seem to usually come from people who have never developed for the system, and dont really know what's required.
Look at where Windows has ended up, on a core with disadvantages vs amiga os, or how far linux has come along. Yes it's quite some work, but there's no reason AmigaOS based systems cant advance similarly.
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>I'd rather have a double root canal without novacaine, performed by a blind dentist using a rusty nail, before I would foist any of these cludgey, archaic, half baked so called OS's, like AROS, etc. on my worst enemy, let alone a customer.
He does have a point. AROS really isn't ready for prime time. Eg. it is still missing basic functionality that the Classic Amiga has had for 12 years, such as ReAction, and the ability to seamlessly run 68K executables.
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I dont disagree that AROS (or indeed any "NG" amiga option) isnt ready for the mainstream, but your choice ofe xamples is,... err,... unusual :)
Reaction isnt overly important, and AROS can run 68k executables seemlessly :) (although it requires quite some grunt to do so in a decent way).
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(notice how theyre only using other peoples work that costs them nothing?)
How can you say that, fishy!? Don't you realize, they made a whole custom skin? Where "custom skin" is defined as "tweaking GNOME settings to be kind of blue-ish and OSX-ey?" That must've taken them whole man-years to develop!
Hypothetical, but I also disagree that current limitations in amiga based oses mean it needs to be disregarded and started again for it to advance. Funny enough these "words of wisdom" seem to usually come from people who have never developed for the system, and dont really know what's required.
Look at where Windows has ended up, on a core with disadvantages vs amiga os, or how far linux has come along. Yes it's quite some work, but there's no reason AmigaOS based systems cant advance similarly.
I do wonder about that. 68k doesn't have anything like the handy virtual 8086 mode that Win32 uses to run Win16 programs safely, but I still don't see why it couldn't be done in theory.
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I just don't understand this. Obviously there are people there with a lot of real feeling for CBM/Amiga systems - so why are you following a delusional narcissist who's said outright that he doesn't care about the CBM/Amiga community?
==CommodoreJohn, I know how you feel and it 'seems' that way 'that he doesn't care'. But to be fair he DOES. Otherwise he wouldn't be spending so much money and so much of his time to 'resurrect' the Commodore brand with new products and new ideas. After all, it's real money and time invested into a business we're talking about here....not some giant faceless corporation with loads of money to splash away. If he fails the whole thing collapses...that's the reality. He hasn't got the luxury to think how things should be
And I'm not saying this because I'm trying to defend them or anything - I'm just stating what I see as an 'outsider'....
TBH Barry's not that bad...he's more of a 'actions speak louder than words' kinda guy and he's just probably annoyed sometimes that whenever he's on A.org it's like as if a rugby ball has just been handed to him and everyone in the room decides to have a scrum... :lol:
As for CUSA well I'm there for other reasons....despite what you see in him/them there are some nice people in the CUSA camp (that I happen to know). Leo is a nice guy for starters and he's worked hard on getting the Linux-based Commodore OS going for the past few months. The beta's been working beautifully on a lot of systems (many non-Commodore I may add).
Barry says a lot of things.
==Yes he does, and some of the things he has said in the past I know have annoyed you guys a bit like the 'China factory photos were from Germany' story, and the obsolete product announcements etc. But please don't hold this to them, they are only a small company working to a tight schedule, resources and budget. And unfortunately sometimes, for small companies, strategies change. In CUSA's case it is unfortunate it has been changed at least twice (that I know of) with regards to product announcements.
That said, the real story of the China photos was like this (that I know of). The supplier initially had given these 'supposed' China factory photos to Barry. Barry being the honest gentleman, decides to trust his supplier at face value and release them to the public when he felt it was ready...only to go red-faced when someone else told them (from A.org?) they were from a Germany factory. So what was the problem? Well the mistake was....his supplier didn't tell him they were 'generic factory' photos! In this case, it was the photos from Fujitsu's factory in Augsberg which they used.
So there you have it....that's what genuinely happened (mystery solved, not a conspiracy!). We've been told apparently that is what they do in the computer industry (with suppliers at least), that they release photos to their clients of those factories deemed 'more photogenic' from a PR perspective. So if anything, blame it on his Chinese supplier! :laughing:
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CommodoreJohn, I know how you feel and it 'seems' that way 'that he doesn't care'. But to be fair he DOES. Otherwise he wouldn't be spending so much money and so much of his time to 'resurrect' the Commodore brand with new products and new ideas. After all, it's real money and time invested into a business we're talking about here....not some giant faceless corporation with loads of money to splash away. If he fails the whole thing collapses...that's the reality. He hasn't got the luxury to think how things should be
He's not resurrecting anything. He's putting bog-standard PC boards in a moderately spiffy case, loading them with a free OS that CUSA in no way contributed to the development of, tweaking the default theme to look vaguely like an electric-blue OSX, charging obscene amounts of money, and expecting to be hailed as the second coming of Jack Tramiel.
And if you think he's putting himself on the line here, you haven't looked up the definition of "limited-liability company."
TBH Barry's not that bad...he's more of a 'actions speak louder than words' kinda guy and he's just probably annoyed sometimes that whenever he's on A.org it's like as if a rugby ball has just been handed to him and everyone in the room decides to have a scrum... :lol:
o_O If his actions speak louder than his words, and his words have spoken "I'm not asking how often you have sex, or if you have trouble performing. We already know that because we looked. I am asking what is your wife's favorite position, and does she really enjoy it?" then...wow.
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Instead it's like the computing equivelent of Big Brother it gets dug up, dusted off, new clothes and a spot of makup to cover over the rotting holes from the last time it was abused and then tarted around as if it's the next best thing in computing.
That sounds like you confused with windows ;-)
Chris
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==CommodoreJohn, I know how you feel and it 'seems' that way 'that he doesn't care'. But to be fair he DOES. Otherwise he wouldn't be spending so much money and so much of his time to 'resurrect' the Commodore brand with new products and new ideas.
I think you're going to be disappointed....
the only thing Barry cares about is money, that much has been made clear several times. I know you'd like there to be new Amigas - as do we all here - but C=USA isn't the answer.
I've seen your posts on their forum and it's obvious that you really want it to be true that Barry is going to bring the Amiga back to its glory, but it's really not. A Linux is distro does not and never will have anything to do with the Amiga, no matter what sticker you slap on the box.
There are so many great REAL things happening now, with REAL Amiga systems (be they AROS, MOS or AOS 4), why waste your time with the pretenders who are just cashing in on the name?
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He's not resurrecting anything. He's putting bog-standard PC boards in a moderately spiffy case, loading them with a free OS that CUSA in no way contributed to the development of, tweaking the default theme to look vaguely like an electric-blue OSX, charging obscene amounts of money, and expecting to be hailed as the second coming of Jack Tramiel.
And if you think he's putting himself on the line here, you haven't looked up the definition of "limited-liability company."
==Well regardless if it is limited-liability or not, business is still business and money is still money my friend. And honestly, is what he/CUSA is doing really that bad? TBH they're no different to Dell or HP bashing a computer together from spare parts today much like Apple is doing with the Intel range of Mac Pros. We know this for a fact noone makes their own graphics chips anymore today save Intel with S3, Nvidia and AMD(ATI). And while Apple may have invested into the likes of Thunderbolt with Intel, has Apple themselves done much for the X86 architecture for Intel or the others? Nope not one iota - they're only interested in sales - so let's try to be realistic here. Most companies save the big ones are all working from pretty much the same pot nowadays (and that's no secret).
o_O If his actions speak louder than his words, and his words have spoken "I'm not asking how often you have sex, or if you have trouble performing. We already know that because we looked. I am asking what is your wife's favorite position, and does she really enjoy it?" then...wow.
==Well let's be fair here..... What I am trying to say by 'actions speak louder than words' is he IS trying to resurrect Commodore/Amiga and he HAS done this with the new Commodore range and in particular, the new C64x. Ask yourself, apart from the OS did Hyperion or Amiga Inc did anyone for that matter actually create physical hardware for Commodore or the Amiga brands (which are absolutely crucial to reviving the brands)? We're now only seeing the X1000 and the AmigaOne for example because of a long period of gestation and frustration/humming and harring (bless Trevor). But even then with it's introduction there's no guarantee x1000/AmigaOne will succeed. They're still basing themselves on tech that is over 10 years old, geared towards a 'core-set' of clients ie. you guys -which may/may not appeal to a modern software house.
And, in the Amiga community at least right now this is the problem I see....what Spirantho said earlier was absolutely true. That there is so much 'in-fighting' going on with the various Amiga brands right now. Why? Because none of us are willing to compromise. And what is this compromise? Compatibility (with other platforms that most people use, which CUSA is actually doing right now by going Intel + Linux) and coming together as a group. If we want Amiga to really come back (to appeal to its relevant markets) this is what it really needs to do. Be up to date, yet backwards compatible. Which we at least manage to 'get' with emulation via WinUAE and the Intel platform.
Think about it. If Amiga Inc/Hyperion had the least bit of sense in them (realistically), they'd make an AmigaOS that is compatible with x86 (like AROS) so that everybody can download it and is up to date with the latest features including Linux VM compatibility. It doesn't matter if it has worked on an 68k processor before, so long as everybody gets a slice of Amiga action, that's what counts right? They get the sales and money, and we get the brand revival and goods we want....so all in all everybody is happy.
But no they're not like that. They keep AmigaOS closed source. For Aros they refuse to recognise their individual contributions and bring them into the fold (to develop an X86 port), and with CUSA they give them the finger when the letters 'x86' are mentioned. How do you expect Barry & Co. who are planning an x86 Amiga to respond? They don't want to be dominated by Windows so they're FORCED to go the Linux route. Which, funnily enough, we now find (despite it not being the original intention), is providing us those very things we've been missing for so long in the Amiga scene....performance AND compatibility.
Believe it or not, Linux is perfect for a new Amiga. I say this because in my mind. Amiga was always a brand about performance (from the tech available of the time) and top performance at that - and Linux I'm now finding, will provide that for a 21st century Amiga. This is what made Amiga special in the past...superb hardware coupled with super software. If the new Amiga can't do that (and match or even exceed the speed/spec of current systems) then it isn't worthy of the Amiga name...it isn't worthy of being revived as a brand. I don't know about any one elses view, but that's my opinion...
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While youre entitled to your opinion the key thing youre missing is that with Linux, amiga vanishes in all but name. An emulator limited to a core that the amiga base wants to see extended and advanced really offers nothing to an amiga user. Not that I dislike OS3.x or 68k, its my most used amiga platform, but this doesnt stop th amiga fan in me wanting to see it progress still, which it is doing outside of C-USA, licensed brand name or not.
Amiga, in any of its guises simply isnt linux. The amiga experience vanishes this way. Being that most amiga fans are reasonably computer literate, if they wanted a linux distro, theyd already be using an linux distro, without having to pay excessive prices on hardware.
The Mac comparison in my opinion is inaccurate. Yes, the hardware is standard x86 gear, but the experience isnt (I say this as someone who loves to hate apple as well). You buy an apple product, you get an apple product, not a rebadged Linux distro.
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Believe it or not, Linux is perfect for a new Amiga. I say this because in my mind. Amiga was always a brand about performance (from the tech available of the time) and top performance at that - and Linux I'm now finding, will provide that for a 21st century Amiga. This is what made Amiga special in the past...superb hardware coupled with super software. If the new Amiga can't do that (and match or even exceed the speed/spec of current systems) then it isn't worthy of the Amiga name...it isn't worthy of being revived as a brand. I don't know about any one elses view, but that's my opinion...
Saying "Linux is perfect for a new Amiga" is like saying "Bananas are perfect for a new Orange". Great, but what if you don't like bananas, and your oranges are just fine anyway thankyouverymuch?
Linux IS NOT Amiga. Never has been, never will be, and you can stick as many stickers as you like saying "Commodore" and "Amiga" on a Linux PC, it'll still be a Linux PC.
Amiga is not just a brand... what it is varies from person to person, for some it's the classic hardware, for some it's the OS, but it is not just a name. If you like using Linux, and it's filled a niche that used to be filled by an Amiga, that's great, but don't kid yourself you're still using an Amiga, you're not, you're a Linux user.
Sorry if I sound irate here, but for C=USA to barge in and call their Linux distro an Amiga is cocking a snook at all the hard work that's been done by the real Amiga users, in whatever flavour (AROS,MOS,AOS 4) that may be.
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Reaction isnt overly important
I hope you're joking but didn't see any smilies so I'm not sure. I guess if all you want to do is run CLI programs or obsolete/hacky GadTools/MUI stuff you could get by without it, but I know I certainly couldn't. And therefore as a consequence, for example, it is completely impossible to produce any ports of any ReAction-based software to AROS without completely rewriting the GUI, which is just not feasible in most cases. There are many other enhancements from OS3.5 and OS3.9 that are missing from AROS (and MOS and OS4 too for that matter), I can't believe this is the case but it is. OS3.9 is now 11 years old so I'm not quite sure why the delay. I understand that the sources are not available but neither OS3.1 sources (nor Windows sources and WINE manages to emulate Windows). It's somewhat analogous to if WINE only supported up to Win95.
AROS can run 68k executables seemlessly :)
Last time I checked it couldn't, but I'll take your word for it that it can now do this.
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The Amiga dies when no more HW and SW are being produced for it!
So it is still alive!
My amigas still boots, I still enjoys using them, to me the amiga is alive.
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I hope you're joking but didn't see any smilies so I'm not sure. I guess if all you want to do is run CLI programs or obsolete/hacky GadTools/MUI stuff you could get by without it, but I know I certainly couldn't. And therefore as a consequence, for example, it is completely impossible to produce any ports of any ReAction-based software to AROS without completely rewriting the GUI, which is just not feasible in most cases. There are many other enhancements from OS3.5 and OS3.9 that are missing from AROS (and MOS and OS4 too for that matter), I can't believe this is the case but it is. OS3.9 is now 11 years old so I'm not quite sure why the delay. I understand that the sources are not available but neither OS3.1 sources (nor Windows sources and WINE manages to emulate Windows). It's somewhat analogous to if WINE only supported up to Win95.
Last time I checked it couldn't, but I'll take your word for it that it can now do this.
Obsolete Mui. In the same sentence as OS3.x reaction? Now I hope it's you thats joking :P
I cant think it one bit of software that I use that uses reaction rather than MUI, and Im predominantely an OS3.x user. MUI on the other hand I use constantly. IBrowse, Wookiechat, Amirc, Voyager, Scout, Scalos. I could go on and on. The only things I can think of that use reaction are a few simple preferences tools. Most of which I replace with MUI equivalents where possible anyway.
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I'm probably the wrong person to weigh in on the topic of the death of the Amiga, but....
I don't think the Amiga is dead. At least no moreso than it's been since 1994. For those who own and enjoy them, the Amiga is, and can be a fun and interesting hobby. That in itself has never changed.
The problem has always been "how do you maintain that level of interest in a platform which currently has -- or has vision of -- no future commercial growth or change?" It took me about 10 years to get over my rabid enthusiasm for the Amiga, and there are literally hundreds of dormant members online here from years ago who've also moved on to different hobbies.
Nothing wrong with that, it's perfectly natural.
As for me and computers, for years I saw the Amiga as potentially THE biggest step towards truly personal computing. In the 80's and early 90's, it was THE only machine which truly promoted personal creativity. The PC's were still 8 to 256 colors and kludgy as hell. Macs were still black and white.
Once Windows and the PC "caught up" in the mid 90's through 2000 or so, they became the mass definition of "personal computing". In 2001 however, (IMNSHO) the paradigm of creativity shifted to the Mac with Apple's move towards Intel and the OS X platform.
Try as I might, I could never get Bill McEwen (and the zombie PPC apocolytes) to understand that PPC was simply a complete dead-end and the wrong way to go. Not saying I'm a hero or even a good guy (I'm really not). I'm simply pointing out that for once in my sorry-assed life, I saw clearly the writing on the wall where others wanted to simply shut their eyes and chant "Amiga! Amiga! Amiga!".
Now going on 10 years later, I'm afraid it's simply too late for the Amiga platform to be commercially revived. Even if the "mother company" had unlimited funds, genius programmers, and the willingness to reboot the platform onto realistic commodity hardware (like Apple did when they moved to Intel), the question would still remain...
What would the perfect modern Amiga be able to offer the world that Apple (or anyone else) hasn't already come out with? Where's that one single huge niche market that Apple isn't already aiming for?
Computers? Tablets? Phones? Kiosks? TVs? Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. And... nope.
Don't get me wrong. I truly and honestly wish that the Amiga could have "risen from the ashes", but as long as everyone is so damned set on grasping ahold of the past (and even if they aren't), it's just not possible.
That being said, stop worrying about what's "dead" and just enjoy your Amiga for what it is. A fun little retro platform that you still dig and learn with.
Regards, and yeah, surprise!
Wayne
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Saying "Linux is perfect for a new Amiga" is like saying "Bananas are perfect for a new Orange". Great, but what if you don't like bananas, and your oranges are just fine anyway thankyouverymuch?
Linux IS NOT Amiga. Never has been, never will be, and you can stick as many stickers as you like saying "Commodore" and "Amiga" on a Linux PC, it'll still be a Linux PC.
Amiga is not just a brand... what it is varies from person to person, for some it's the classic hardware, for some it's the OS, but it is not just a name. If you like using Linux, and it's filled a niche that used to be filled by an Amiga, that's great, but don't kid yourself you're still using an Amiga, you're not, you're a Linux user.
Sorry if I sound irate here, but for C=USA to barge in and call their Linux distro an Amiga is cocking a snook at all the hard work that's been done by the real Amiga users, in whatever flavour (AROS,MOS,AOS 4) that may be.
I guess we win some and we lose some. I don't claim to be from CUSA (I am an outside customer of theirs who came here totally on my own accord) but you asked me a question earlier about why the 'CUSA camp' feels the way they do and I tried my best to express how I see it. But if that's how you feel, fair enough....I accept the fact (and your apology) that it's two different approaches. I look at it as like cooking. One chef is from the States and one chef is from France. Two totally different styles.... :big laugh:
Well whatever happens, I'm probably most interested in what is happening with the FPGA Replay. I think there is a lot of potential with it as a classic Amiga fan (and I'm dead serious lol). Coupling that with a CUSA-made case just might be the tonic we all need. :lol:
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I guess we win some and we lose some. I don't claim to be from CUSA (I am an outside customer of theirs who came here totally on my own accord) but you asked me a question earlier about why the 'CUSA camp' feels the way they do and I tried my best to express how I see it. But if that's how you feel, fair enough....I accept the fact (and your apology) that it's two different approaches. I look at it as like cooking. One chef is from the States and one chef is from France. Two totally different styles.... :big laugh:
Exactly, to each their own. And as long as nobody tries to tell us Amiga users that their Linux PC is an Amiga, we'll get along just fine. :)
Well whatever happens, I'm probably most interested in what is happening with the FPGA Replay. I think there is a lot of potential with it as a classic Amiga fan (and I'm dead serious lol). Coupling that with a CUSA-made case just might be the tonic we all need. :lol:
Now that I agree with (apart from the CUSA case :) ). FPGA is a very interesting field, just look at the Indivision ECS for starters!
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@Middleman
Welcome. Been bad with flu otherwise I would have welcomed you sooner.
I love a CUSA bashing thread as much as the next but this is really not the thread to do it in so I am not going to really pursue it. All I will say is that there is plenty of evidence laying around this site, amigaworld.net and c-a.org (if you can work out how to get the search function to work on it) about the whole AROS thing.
But in any case moving swiftly awaaaaaayyyyyy from this lol :)
FPGA is a way forward with the Amiga. It's certainly cheap enough and offers enough versatility to make it a very interesting.
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And honestly, is what he/CUSA is doing really that bad? TBH they're no different to Dell or HP bashing a computer together from spare parts today much like Apple is doing with the Intel range of Mac Pros.
Except that Dell and HP aren't running around pretending to be the resurrection of something they have absolutely nothing to do with, they're just selling PCs. (And I haven't had a kind word for Apple since the Intel switch, I just don't bring it up because Steve Jobs didn't come over to amiga.org and yammer at people.)
Well let's be fair here..... What I am trying to say by 'actions speak louder than words' is he IS trying to resurrect Commodore/Amiga and he HAS done this with the new Commodore range and in particular, the new C64x.
Again I ask, how is dropping a prefab, unrelated product in a reproduction case "resurrecting?" If that's resurrection, people in the modding community have beaten him to the punch by years.
Ask yourself, apart from the OS did Hyperion or Amiga Inc did anyone for that matter actually create physical hardware for Commodore or the Amiga brands (which are absolutely crucial to reviving the brands)?
I have little interest in OS4 myself, but it takes me all of one minute to go to Wikipedia and see ten post-Commodore "Amiga" machines capable of running OS4 in their "Amiga hardware" category, going all the way back to 2002. There's also the Efika, which won't run OS4 but will run MorphOS. So...evidence suggests that's a "yes, yes they did."
And, in the Amiga community at least right now this is the problem I see....what Spirantho said earlier was absolutely true. That there is so much 'in-fighting' going on with the various Amiga brands right now. Why? Because none of us are willing to compromise.
No, the reason there's infighting is because people made it a holy war. It has nothing to do with meeting in the middle.
And what is this compromise? Compatibility (with other platforms that most people use, which CUSA is actually doing right now by going Intel + Linux) and coming together as a group. If we want Amiga to really come back (to appeal to its relevant markets) this is what it really needs to do.
No. You can take a Linux PC and slap a sticker on it if you like, but it will not change the fundamental nature of the thing. It will not make it an Amiga, because it has derived nothing at all from the Amiga. That's what Barry, Amiga Inc., and many others refuse to understand, that these names are not just all-purpose labels to stick on things to make them more salable.
But no they're not like that. They keep AmigaOS closed source. For Aros they refuse to recognise their individual contributions and bring them into the fold
I'm not defending Hyperion. Not at all. I'm just objecting to the idea that one can take two completely un-Amiga-related technologies, combine them, and then label them "Amiga!"
Believe it or not, Linux is perfect for a new Amiga. I say this because in my mind.
No. No, it's not. I've just spent way too much time trying to get into Linux, myself. And I've come away with one conclusion: I don't want anything to do with it. Let it run the servers of the world, it seems to do a fine job at that, but as a desktop OS it's horrible. UI is schizophrenic at best, configuration's lovely until it's suddenly a nightmare, drivers are only ever written for the popular hardware, and nobody in the community is much help. I don't need that. I don't want it. And I sure as hell don't want it being marketed as "Amiga."
If the new Amiga can't do that (and match or even exceed the speed/spec of current systems) then it isn't worthy of the Amiga name...it isn't worthy of being revived as a brand. I don't know about any one elses view, but that's my opinion...
This is what we don't need, this crippling inferiority complex. So many Amigans are unable to see the good in a project because it doesn't bench what their i7 box does. We don't need powerful, we need good.
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Obsolete Mui. In the same sentence as OS3.x reaction?
The "obsolete" was actually referring to GadTools, (and "hacky" was referring to MUI).
I cant think it one bit of software that I use that uses reaction rather than MUI, and Im predominantely an OS3.x user. MUI on the other hand I use constantly. IBrowse, Wookiechat, Amirc, Voyager, Scout, Scalos. I could go on and on. The only things I can think of that use reaction are a few simple preferences tools. Most of which I replace with MUI equivalents where possible anyway.[/QUOTE]
The opposite situations pertains here, I'm fairly sure I don't have any MUI programs installed at all except Scout.
Well, most programs that I write (AmiArcadia, MCE, etc.) use it; you must not be familiar with any of them, so I presume you don't go to Aminet often ;-) But there are hundreds of others, Aminet is your friend :-) I should also make the point that coders who want their code to be easily portable to AROS and MOS are forced to use MUI (or GadTools); they would not necessarily make such a decision if all the GUIs were available on all platforms. Therefore, this means more MUI programs than would otherwise be the case. But even if, for the sake of argument, it was 75% MUI and 25% ReAction, it shouldn't really matter, it's like saying "Only 25% of programs access the joystick, therefore there is no point supporting joysticks".
Anyway, the point was not to resurrect the ancient ReAction vs. MUI debate, the point I was trying to make is that OS3.5/3.9 have had functionality for over a decade which AROS lacks, so it's not a viable option to have an Amiga compatible OS that actually isn't very compatible at all and still lacks entire subsystems, forcing anyone wanting their programs to be portable to it to avoid using any features newer than 18 years ago. There's lots of improvements in OS3.5/3.9 compared to 3.1 and AFAICT AROS doesn't implement *any* of them.
I could write a reimplementation of OS1.0 and I could truthfully call it an "Amiga compatible OS" but it wouldn't be very useful for much. The same applies to a lesser extent to a reimplementation of OS3.1. I'm not sure why they stopped at 3.1, do they have something against H&P?
To try to get back to the main topic, I'm surprised Commodore USA didn't go for a computer with built-in UAE to run on startup, similar to a MAME cabinet in concept. Since there is a market for MAME cabinets, perhaps there would be a market for Amiga "cabinets" (cases). Not that this would appeal to me personally, but neither does what they are actually going ahead with and the market is more uncertain. Perhaps they were not able to negotiate a deal with Amino and/or Cloanto for the Kickstart ROMs.
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For me, the Amiga was about creating an architecture with co-processing for audio, video and IO. In a world that seemed to rely solely on a CPU for everything.
Our classic Amiga's were so far ahead of their time, most didn't realize what they were missing.
But today, for me, an Intel System with a powerful GPU and Sound Card cannot be matched and is basically what the Amiga was aspiring to accomplish, so a well assembled PC has what we need for a new generation of Amigas.
What we are missing is a company that is willing to write an x86 Amiga OS allowing for legacy support and adding much needed updates to modernize the OS.
AROS for x86, if made to do it all could give us what we want.
If I only had the money to buy the rights back, form one company, my dreams would be to assemble the best developers and accelerate the Classic Amiga OS into the modern age using the best of x86 components today.
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@Minuous
AROS aims for OS3.1 compatibility. Despite what many people have been saying for a long time, many people seem unable to grasp (perhaps selectively) that this doesnt mean "restricted to". There's many cases where it goes beyond anything OS3.9 (or4.x) has.
"Not very compatible at all" is a bit of a stretch simply because it lacks something that it never sought to include. You yourself indirectly mention that Reaction isnt nearly as heavily used as MUI. Additionally there actually has been a little work done on a reaction wrapper. Not to mention that there's plenty of work more important than yet another gui systems that adds only a small amount of software. None of it of any significance either (might be an exception or 2, but I cant think of any at the moment).
AROS sets out to be OS3.1 compatible, but enhanced in its own ways beyond that. It doesnt aim to be a remake of OS3.x. Personally I see things like GTK (which aros has via gtk<->mui wrapper) as more important than reaction.
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Before I begin, yes hi CritAnime and thanks for the welcome.....great to meet you mate! :)
Except that Dell and HP aren't running around pretending to be the resurrection of something they have absolutely nothing to do with, they're just selling PCs. (And I haven't had a kind word for Apple since the Intel switch, I just don't bring it up because Steve Jobs didn't come over to amiga.org and yammer at people.)
Again I ask, how is dropping a prefab, unrelated product in a reproduction case "resurrecting?" If that's resurrection, people in the modding community have beaten him to the punch by years.
I have little interest in OS4 myself, but it takes me all of one minute to go to Wikipedia and see ten post-Commodore "Amiga" machines capable of running OS4 in their "Amiga hardware" category, going all the way back to 2002. There's also the Efika, which won't run OS4 but will run MorphOS. So...evidence suggests that's a "yes, yes they did."
==Yes I know, there was also the Walker. Fair enough....but the point I was trying to make was they didn't 'buy' the Commodore and Amiga brands like CUSA have and formally bring them back together and create 'real hardware' under those names. Don't you see it's important from a marketing perspective?
No, the reason there's infighting is because people made it a holy war. It has nothing to do with meeting in the middle.
==Yeah and it started with the guys setting fire to the cheap PC keyboards in Chester (albeit in frustration when they lost their jobs). Had they been a bit calmer then and try to come up with a real plan to save Commodore (like a management buyout) perhaps old C= might still be here...
As I said, it's a failure to compromise on some things that brought them into the mess. Over the years, that chief issue has become a modern CPU/change of architecture. Why oh why can't AmigaOS use x86 as a basis for a new machine now? What is the problem? Look what's happened with Apple now when they've moved over to Intel...they are thriving! Why can't Amiga do the same?
No. You can take a Linux PC and slap a sticker on it if you like, but it will not change the fundamental nature of the thing. It will not make it an Amiga, because it has derived nothing at all from the Amiga. That's what Barry, Amiga Inc., and many others refuse to understand, that these names are not just all-purpose labels to stick on things to make them more salable.
==I understand where you're coming from. But you also gotta understand where I'm coming from. By doing what you're saying you've also restricting yourself in saying what a future Amiga 'could be'. That it 'cannot be Linux' is really a restrictive viewpoint in my opinion. As I said earlier, the difference between a Amiga and PC in the early days was that the Amiga won because it was technically superior due to its chipset. Nowadays most chipsets are well past the performance of the Amiga, and software, OS and programming tools has also improved. Why cannot we have a 'modern Amiga' which moves along with the times with these features? Why restrict ourselves to past architecture? Has not the PC market shown to you that 'being technically superior' is what sells systems and OSes?
I'm not defending Hyperion. Not at all. I'm just objecting to the idea that one can take two completely un-Amiga-related technologies, combine them, and then label them "Amiga!"
==Then what do you suggest should Amiga as a brand, system and fan-base do? We know the market is ripe for the return of an Amiga and something truly worthy for gamers and such....but £1800 I feel is just too much for a machine based on old technology (X1000).
No. No, it's not. I've just spent way too much time trying to get into Linux, myself. And I've come away with one conclusion: I don't want anything to do with it. Let it run the servers of the world, it seems to do a fine job at that, but as a desktop OS it's horrible. UI is schizophrenic at best, configuration's lovely until it's suddenly a nightmare, drivers are only ever written for the popular hardware, and nobody in the community is much help. I don't need that. I don't want it. And I sure as hell don't want it being marketed as "Amiga."
==Well I don't think so. Mac OSX is 'essentially' Linux (albeit BSD-based) but look where after much polishing, it has gotten Apple. It is one of the top sellers now! And no Windows PC can touch it....so why can't CUSA with their version of an Amiga and a 'Commodore OS'? Or a combination of the two with a Hyperion/CUSA matchup?
This is what we don't need, this crippling inferiority complex. So many Amigans are unable to see the good in a project because it doesn't bench what their i7 box does. We don't need powerful, we need good.
==Yes, that I agree on principle, but good doesn't sell help machines or OSes unfortunately. Or in the case of software, allow software houses to create great games for the platform. Amiga needs support from the major software houses if it is to make a strong comeback...and you can't do that using the current hardware (unless you want them to recreate retro 16-bit games - but who's willing to do that in this day and age?).
What we are missing is a company that is willing to write an x86 Amiga OS allowing for legacy support and adding much needed updates to modernize the OS.
AROS for x86, if made to do it all could give us what we want.
If I only had the money to buy the rights back, form one company, my dreams would be to assemble the best developers and accelerate the Classic Amiga OS into the modern age using the best of x86 components today.
==That's what Commodore USA has been trying to do for the Amiga community for the past 2 years, to try to bring the community under one roof using x86 components. Except Amiga Inc. had other ideas about how AmigaOS should be used (only on Motorola CPUs and issued legal warnings to CUSA if they went Aros way) and as a result there was bad vibes received on both sides and why CUSA is now looking to Linux instead as a platform...
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"No Windows PC can match it"?. In what sense? Performance wise Windows beats a Mac 9 times out of 10 (remember the malloc probs anyone?). Not to mention better drivers on Windows and various other areas where support is superior.
This aside though Apple actually put thier own flavor on BSD/Next. They have thier own apis and many of thier own technologies. It's not a bog standard *nix distro. Cocoa, Obj-C, and so on. Ive seen no indication that C-USA are intending to do the same. OSX was, from the very 1st release it's own product, COS isnt. Heck, theyve not even bothered to update thier UAE core, and instead rely on the open source community to hopefully one day do it.
There's absolutely nothing to make it stand out. Licensing a name simply isnt enough.
Im all for a new OS that has its own features and advantages, but nothing C-USA is doing suggests that's thier plan. If I wanted to use a standard Linux distro, Id use a standard Linux distro.
Additionally, again, it wasnt A.Inc that had any influence on C-USA's choice to use Linux. Amiga Inc. themselves arent even allowed to create an AmigaOS inspired system.
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If commodore usa wants to defend themselves, why don't they just grow some balls and post publicly? Why do they need to create shill accounts all the time with fake people to defend themselves and preach the CUSA gospel?
Personally, I think they have some fantastic ideas but I can't stand their behavior. Threatening to sue a writer from osnews.com, then questioning his sexuality... Because he told the truth...
Stealing one of their earlier websites from apple word for word, but cutting out mac computer names and pasting in their computer names in...
(this one is probably my favorite of the bull**** they've spewed)
Stealing graphics without the authors permission and pretending thats their new "amiga" computer design...
All these hyped up vaporware computers that never make it to the real stage, getting caught just slapping stickers on existing computers and renaming them too, shows their true character, or lack of it.
Their treatment of AROS, an effort I highly support, has been atrocious.
Their insulting and alienating the os4 camp...
Claiming their new "amiga" will cost 10,000$+ (and be worth it!)
Deleting posts (or accounts) of people on their own forum for asking a valid question, or questioning them on anything they say.
Slapping a theme on linux mint and calling it a new operating system...
Encouraging people not to buy software or old games, or mess with floppy disks because software is available for free! (From pirate sites)
Posting fake pictures of their computer factory in china...
The list goes on and on.
All these things, taken singly, could be forgiven as a young startup making mistakes as they find their way, but the effect all these things added up (and many more I didn't mention) Just turns people off from them instantly. You can't trust anything they say when all the lies and bull**** and hype for 3 years straight. Shut up and make computers worth buying, stop the hype and bull**** already.
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Yes I know, there was also the Walker. Fair enough....but the point I was trying to make was they didn't 'buy' the Commodore and Amiga brands like CUSA have and formally bring them back together and create 'real hardware' under those names. Don't you see it's important from a marketing perspective?
No, I don't. I find the question of actual substance to be vastly more important than whether a particular system's creator has shelled out to Bill McEwen for the rights to put a particular sticker on the case - and even a thing like the PPC boards that's really only Amiga-like in software is still infinitely closer to being "Amiga" than a bog-standard PC board running Linux.
Why oh why can't AmigaOS use x86 as a basis for a new machine now? What is the problem?
I never said it can't. I just said that unrelated hardware + unrelated software does not equal "Amiga." Unrelated hardware + Amiga-related software has a lot stronger case to be made for it.
Look what's happened with Apple now when they've moved over to Intel...they are thriving! Why can't Amiga do the same?
Apple's re-emergence has a lot less to do with switching its computers to Intel (Macs are still at about the same general portion of the market they've always been) and a lot more to do with its shift in focus towards consumer electronics. And frankly, I have even less interest in Amiga-like OSes on a phone than I do in Amiga-like OSes on PCs.
I understand where you're coming from. But you also gotta understand where I'm coming from. By doing what you're saying you've also restricting yourself in saying what a future Amiga 'could be'. That it 'cannot be Linux' is really a restrictive viewpoint in my opinion.
And? Any definitive categorization is restrictive by nature. If we know what "Amiga" as a concept is, then we also know everything that it isn't. A Linux PC has nothing, in terms of hardware, software, or even more than basic superficial similarity of user interface, in common with any flavor of Amiga/Amiga-like. Saying that we should agree to call it "Amiga" means that "Amiga" is essentially a meaningless term; since it has no real definition, it can therefore be affixed to anything. Why not take that all the way? Have Amiga kitchen appliances, Amiga hardwood flooring, Amiga tampons! Does it mean anything, or doesn't it?
Why cannot we have a 'modern Amiga' which moves along with the times with these features? Why restrict ourselves to past architecture?
I never said anything of the kind. I'm all for advancement, just not at the cost of sacrificing every single thing at all unique about a system.
Has not the PC market shown to you that 'being technically superior' is what sells systems and OSes?
No. It's shown me that being cheap, open, freely manufacturable, and backed by industry titans is what sells systems.
Then what do you suggest should Amiga as a brand, system and fan-base do? We know the market is ripe for the return of an Amiga and something truly worthy for gamers and such....but £1800 I feel is just too much for a machine based on old technology (X1000).
Excellent question. Myself, I favor what I see happening with the NatAmi project, and I'd love for it to be inexpensively available to a large audience. If I had any means to help that happen, I would do so. But I don't, so it's going to depend on what the existing NatAmi team can manage.
Well I don't think so. Mac OSX is 'essentially' Linux (albeit BSD-based) but look where after much polishing, it has gotten Apple.
And I hate it less, but I still don't much care for it, for a host of different reasons. And in any case, I'm not aware of a Linux distro that uses OSX-like underpinnings - FreeBSD, maybe, but even that's stuck with the clusterfun that is X11 and eight quadzillion interface toolkits with their own different UI guidelines that developers ignore or heed utterly at random.
It is one of the top sellers now!
...? OSX's market share is somewhere in the 6-10% range.
Yes, that I agree on principle, but good doesn't sell help machines or OSes unfortunately.
I don't care. Good is good, bad is bad, and I've had well and truly enough of pretending otherwise.
you can't do that using the current hardware (unless you want them to recreate retro 16-bit games - but who's willing to do that in this day and age?)
*raises hand*
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I never said it can't. I just said that unrelated hardware + unrelated software does not equal "Amiga." Unrelated hardware + Amiga-related software has a lot stronger case to be made for it.
That can only happen on retro pojects like Natami, OS4 and similar. As soon as you venture out to use modern technologies, using "Amiga related software" doesn't make sense, since you'll not be using that technology to it's proper limits(no SMP, no resource tracking, no protected memory, ancient IP/TCP stack, partition or process size limitations and so on and on and on). And if you venture out to try and modernize that ancient amiga-related software(and if the history of the platform is any judge, you'll be smart not to try), you'll end up with something, that again, doesn't have anything to do with how classic AmigaOS does things because you'll have to break pretty much everything, include alien APIs, File systems, new modules...
So you can do 2 things... clean break or years of "bleeding" your platform while you (try) to bring your software to modern standards.
in short... today, it's impossible to make sense of a project that would marry amiga-related OS with modern hardware... But if you object, just use AROS on x86, done deal.
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@Iggy
Hey! I like Odyssey. Except for Flash support (which is rapidily becoming irrelevent) it has all the features I need in a browser.
Well, it *does* have Flash support, up to Flash 8.
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And if you venture out to try and modernize that ancient amiga-related software(and if the history of the platform is any judge, you'll be smart not to try), you'll end up with something, that again, doesn't have anything to do with how classic AmigaOS does things because you'll have to break pretty much everything, include alien APIs, File systems, new modules...
I don't buy that. I don't see any reason why a new, Amiga-like but fundamentally updated OS with a protected environment for original Amiga software couldn't be written. Hell, that's basically what Win32 did for Win16. The choices aren't limited to "never progress" or "throw out all semblance of inspiration."
But if you object, just use AROS on x86, done deal.
Quite. A hell of a lot more convincing as an "Amiga" substitute than using completely unrelated software like Linux.
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The opposite situations pertains here, I'm fairly sure I don't have any MUI programs installed at all except Scout.
So, mmh, tell us which Reaction applications you use, exactly.
Let's assume you use AmigaOS for daily stuff. Is there a Reaction mailer? A Reaction PDF viewer? A Reaction audio/video player ? A Reaction IRC/MSN/Whater client ? A Reaction filemanager ? Are there even Reaction replacements for the quite simple preferences programs of OS3.x?
The only serious Reaction (well Classact) applications I know is AWeb, and Codebench under OS4. The rest is rather simplistic tools.
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I don't buy that. I don't see any reason why a new, Amiga-like but fundamentally updated OS with a protected environment for original Amiga software couldn't be written. Hell, that's basically what Win32 did for Win16. The choices aren't limited to "never progress" or "throw out all semblance of inspiration."
Well, go than and code one. Or better, tell Apple they should have stayed Mac OS classic and just "update it". Or tell Microsoft that Windows Millenium was their best effort :lol:.
When something is as outdated as AmigaOS is today, you're much, much better off with a clean break. For numerous reasons, but the most important being that you'll lose a helluva lot time just to play catch up, which pretty much ensures you'll never be able to compete with architecturally newer software designs. Not to mention that you'll probably end up with a substandard product, even if you could cram AmigaOS and modern features together(which has never been done up until now and most devs will tell you it's nigh impossible).
Quite. A hell of a lot more convincing as an "Amiga" substitute than using completely unrelated software like Linux.
Understandable... but you'll be limited by it and by what you can do with it.
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Well, go than and code one. Or better, tell Apple they should have stayed Mac OS classic and just "update it". Or tell Microsoft that Windows Millenium was their best effort :lol:.
Millenium wasn't their best effort. 98se was ;P
In all seriousness, though, I'm not saying "try to endlessly tweak the existing codebase and API to sort of work with architectural updates." What I'm saying is, you can do something like NTVDM or OSX's Classic environment and provide a compatibility layer for older software without pulling an OSX by ditching the design entirely and switching to Unix.
You could have a new OS design based on the Amiga API, but not tied strictly to it to the point of impairing modern improvements; new software could be written to run natively on it, and original Amiga software could run in something akin to OSX's Classic environment. Unix isn't the only possible solution (or, in my opinion, the best.)
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What I'm saying is, you can do something like NTVDM or OSX's Classic environment and provide a compatibility layer for older software without pulling an OSX by ditching the design entirely and switching to Unix.
Well, you're advocating exactly the same thing as I am. A new OS with emulation for old apps. Though, since the vast majority of commercial Amiga software dates from 80s and 90s which any hardware today will run easily, a simple emulation would do.
Unix isn't the only possible solution (or, in my opinion, the best.)
It's the most suitable solution, code portability wise. You go in a different direction, unless it's significantly superior to what already exists, you'll make it less appealing to devs and far less likely to get ports/versions of popular apps from other OSes. Today, only 2 families of OSes are successful on personal (or mobile) computers... UNIXoids and Windows. I can't see that changing anytime soon.
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@Iggy
Well, it *does* have Flash support, up to Flash 8.
Sorry Fab, I tend to make that mistake because I avoid Flash based sites.
It lacks good Flash support. :)
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Well, you're advocating exactly the same thing as I am. A new OS with emulation for old apps. Though, since the vast majority of commercial Amiga software dates from 80s and 90s which any hardware today will run easily, a simple emulation would do.
Emulation will do fine for games, but for other software it'd be nice to have a more integrated solution.
It's the most suitable solution, code portability wise. You go in a different direction, unless it's significantly superior to what already exists, you'll make it less appealing to devs and far less likely to get ports/versions of popular apps from other OSes.
That's not necessarily true. Haiku is nothing like Unix internally, but it has POSIX compatibility (and GTK and Qt ports) and thus can get a lot of Linux software as a simple recompile. There's no reason a new Amiga-like OS couldn't do the same. Even if it was more work than that, it'd still be preferable to redefining "Amiga" into meaninglessness.
Today, only 2 families of OSes are successful on personal (or mobile) computers... UNIXoids and Windows. I can't see that changing anytime soon.
News flash: The Amiga is not "successful." It's not even the teensiest blip on the map of OS market share these days, it hasn't been for nigh-on two decades now, not since Windows was a 16-bit, unprotected, cooperative-multitasking DOS shell and Linux was just a quirky Finn playing with a 386 and sharing his experiments on Usenet.
It's not going to be "successful" any time soon, because the only people who are still interested in it these days are nutters like you or I on the lunatic fringe of computing. Even if one were to hire a wizard to magically reverse its decline as if time were running backwards, by the time the Amiga got back to representing any significant fraction of the market, who knows where the mainstream would be?
There's no point in trying to reinvent yourself by simply copycatting the big players. All you're going to do is turn into another wannabe. (Google managed it, but that's because A. they're farkin' Google and B. they actually had points of comparison with iOS like "actually kind of open." But mostly A.) Maybe you'll be up-to-date techologically, but you'll still be "playing catch-up" in terms of actually getting anybody to ever use it.
And given that, why bother? Why not spend that effort on making something new?
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No, I don't. I find the question of actual substance to be vastly more important than whether a particular system's creator has shelled out to Bill McEwen for the rights to put a particular sticker on the case - and even a thing like the PPC boards that's really only Amiga-like in software is still infinitely closer to being "Amiga" than a bog-standard PC board running Linux.
I never said it can't. I just said that unrelated hardware + unrelated software does not equal "Amiga." Unrelated hardware + Amiga-related software has a lot stronger case to be made for it.
==Well you 'can' run AROS (albeit unofficially) on a CUSA Vic Slim or C64x. That certainly gets us closer to an 'Amiga' than ever before. Then again the same can be said when you plug a Soundblaster Live card into a SAM460EX - totally unrelated to Amiga initially, but brings you all the features we wanted in our dreams. Yes, that I agree...
Apple's re-emergence has a lot less to do with switching its computers to Intel (Macs are still at about the same general portion of the market they've always been) and a lot more to do with its shift in focus towards consumer electronics. And frankly, I have even less interest in Amiga-like OSes on a phone than I do in Amiga-like OSes on PCs.
==Well, Apple's been clever with their management and marketing (and moving away from computers to actual electronic software/music delivery), and so far been lucky with how they went about with the development of OSX. I still consider it 'very sly' the way Steve handled the transition from PowerPC to x86, but I guess it was their luck how it turned out.
Funnily enough I learnt this week from a friend that most of the world's oldest PowerPC Macs have all mostly ended up in South Korea. Apparently it's to do with how their font systems work. In the Korean publishing industries their fonts are controlled by a few tiny companies who had their since the System OS days. And what happened was they refused to open them up/port them to OSX so the printing and publishing companies have no choice but to use older OS9 setups, Postscript and closed systems like Quark and Pagemaker. Because these machines are well over 10 years old (and still running, even today) sales of new Apple machines are flat and there's a huge secondhand market there for older spare Mac parts.
So the irony is, some people still needs a PowerPC machine in some places in our world..... But yes I agree with you too on the Ami-phone thing. Amiga OSes DO NOT work well on things...
And? Any definitive categorization is restrictive by nature. If we know what "Amiga" as a concept is, then we also know everything that it isn't. A Linux PC has nothing, in terms of hardware, software, or even more than basic superficial similarity of user interface, in common with any flavor of Amiga/Amiga-like. Saying that we should agree to call it "Amiga" means that "Amiga" is essentially a meaningless term; since it has no real definition, it can therefore be affixed to anything. Why not take that all the way? Have Amiga kitchen appliances, Amiga hardwood flooring, Amiga tampons! Does it mean anything, or doesn't it?
==I've seen the term been misused before on other things, but at least with a Linux-based PC it is still relevant (as its computing). But God forbid the day we get Amiga tampons! That'll really be the end of the world....
I never said anything of the kind. I'm all for advancement, just not at the cost of sacrificing every single thing at all unique about a system.
==Well if you're talking about sacrifice, the ultimate sacrifice had already been made when Commodore International had gone bankrupt. Most of the loyal fanbase had lost everything when the parent company went under - we lost everything then. Talent, money, knowledge - everything that was C=. What we're trying to do now (in CUSA's case) is not 'resurrect' the old 16-bit platform per se, but to start off with a completely new sheet. Since everything's been so convuluted anyways, we might as well start off with a clean-sheet right (as Wolf To The Moon says)?
In this sense (in CUSA's case - I'm not talking about anyone else) it is 'doing things in the spirit of Commodore and Amiga' which was doing it creatively, imaginatively and powerfully. Doing things in 'the spirit of Amiga' is more important (and relevant) I feel to the markets today than ever before. Because as Leo, Barry, Terminills and the many Ami folks that I've talked to discussing this at length, as former Amiga users we are tired of Windows and tired of OSX/Macs/Apple revisionism. We just want something else 'different' on the market, something that will still give us that nostalgic feeling but still allow us to run the latest and greatest stuff, primarily games and creative stuff. Classic Amiga is certainly established now, but the idea of a new machine is to move 'beyond' that. It's still performance driven and modern, but with a unique character that is 'Amiga'.
No. It's shown me that being cheap, open, freely manufacturable, and backed by industry titans is what sells systems.
==EXACTLY....backed by industry titans. And you can't do with without a powerful, affordable and adaptable architecture. At the moment it seems, nothing can touch x86 right now in terms of bang for buck or platform support. Just look at how many copies of Battlefield 3 got shifted recently.....8 million copies!
Excellent question. Myself, I favor what I see happening with the NatAmi project, and I'd love for it to be inexpensively available to a large audience. If I had any means to help that happen, I would do so. But I don't, so it's going to depend on what the existing NatAmi team can manage.
==I've looked at NatAmi too and it looks interesting. There's a lot going for it, but sadly it's still based on the older architecture. Unless they can create a PPC/Cell board which can connect to say, a PCI Express slot on a PC like Yellow Dog Linux did (which can then allow AmigaOS to run natively within Linux) I think we're a little far off...
And I hate it less, but I still don't much care for it, for a host of different reasons. And in any case, I'm not aware of a Linux distro that uses OSX-like underpinnings - FreeBSD, maybe, but even that's stuck with the clusterfun that is X11 and eight quadzillion interface toolkits with their own different UI guidelines that developers ignore or heed utterly at random.
==Perhaps then FreeBSD should re-evaluate their position? But I certainly know NetBSD could be a contender because it can read AmigaOS files natively. POSIX support is important for a better OS for Amiga I agree...
...? OSX's market share is somewhere in the 6-10% range.
==Yes, but not when you include iOS as part of the make-up. The potential for Apple to utilise this as an underpinning is huge...just look at how the new iOS5 update has 'freed' people from their computers when updating their phones/iPads.
I don't care. Good is good, bad is bad, and I've had well and truly enough of pretending otherwise.
==I think there's a lot more potential for Amiga to develop even further now as a new system than ever before. Just look at Aros' latest posting. They are now supporting Nvidia's Fermi cards right out of the box! Now that's what we need to revitalise the brand and userbase....
*raises hand*
==That's a tough wish....but would be interesting if it did happen!
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I've seen the term been misused before on other things, but at least with a Linux-based PC it is still relevant (as its computing). But God forbid the day we get Amiga tampons! That'll really be the end of the world....
But what's the difference, really? If anything computing-related counts as "Amiga," then the name is still watered-down to the point of uselessness. By that logic, you could have "Amiga" Macintoshes, "Amiga" programmable calculators, or "Amiga" software-as-a-service web platforms. If that's how it work, is it really such a great difference between "Amiga = computer thing" and "Amiga = thing?" You might as well have branded hygiene products.
Well if you're talking about sacrifice, the ultimate sacrifice had already been made when Commodore International had gone bankrupt. Most of the loyal fanbase had lost everything when the parent company went under - we lost everything then. Talent, money, knowledge - everything that was C=. What we're trying to do now (in CUSA's case) is not 'resurrect' the old 16-bit platform per se, but to start off with a completely new sheet. Since everything's been so convuluted anyways, we might as well start off with a clean-sheet right (as Wolf To The Moon says)?
But what's the point? CUSA employs nobody that made CBM or Amiga what they were, nobody even remotely comparable in knowledge or vision, has no interest in doing any of the things Commodore did, and to any outside observer seems basically to be in the biz to sell overpriced same-old to desperate retro-obsessives. If you're going to "start off with a clean sheet," you could at least have the decency to not pretend you're following up on something entirely different.
In this sense (in CUSA's case - I'm not talking about anyone else) it is 'doing things in the spirit of Commodore and Amiga' which was doing it creatively, imaginatively and powerfully.
But they're not. They're not creative - they haven't created anything. They've reproduced a case, bulk-purchased existing boards, slapped the two together, and stuck a re-paletted Linux Mint on it. The only thing differentiating a C64x from any other ITX board in a C64 case running Linux is that it shows a chickenhead on boot, which is just a tweak on a feature a lot of BIOSes already have.
They're not imaginative, either - Barry's "vision" as stated thus far consists solely of riding the "overpriced retro-packaged Linux box" horse until its legs fall off. The real Commodore went from calculators to PET to VIC to C64 to Amiga in under a decade - Barry's line of two PC clones and plans for a third doesn't come within a light-year of comparison.
And they're not all that powerful, either - certainly not for that kind of money. So they've got an i7 board in it now - big freakin' deal, you can put together your own i7 system for a lot less, and put it in a better-cooled case while you're at it. Hell, you can buy i7 laptops now.
as former Amiga users we are tired of Windows and tired of OSX/Macs/Apple revisionism. We just want something else 'different' on the market, something that will still give us that nostalgic feeling but still allow us to run the latest and greatest stuff, primarily games and creative stuff.
There's nothing nostalgic about Mint. There just isn't. I mean, if it shipped with a stripped-down System-V-clone distro that displayed amber text on a terminal emulator and didn't know what X even was, that wouldn't be good, but it could at least conceivably be claimed to be "nostalgic."
It's still performance driven and modern, but with a unique character that is 'Amiga'.
But it isn't. It doesn't work like an Amiga, it doesn't play like an Amiga, it doesn't feel like an Amiga, it doesn't have anything Amiga-like under the hood, it doesn't have anything Amiga-like in the bare metal, it has nothing at all in common with anything that forms any part of any basic consensus of what "Amiga" is. Even if you feel that there's some undefinable "character" that makes the Amiga, Linux does. Not. Have. It. It is its own separate thing, with its own separate merits, but it is not Amiga.
EXACTLY....backed by industry titans. And you can't do with without a powerful, affordable and adaptable architecture. At the moment it seems, nothing can touch x86 right now in terms of bang for buck or platform support. Just look at how many copies of Battlefield 3 got shifted recently.....8 million copies!
Uh...Battlefield 3 is not x86-exclusive, it runs on the 360 and PS3. In any case, x86 was established long before it actually got good, back in the bad old days of 640KB conventional memory, labyrinthine ISA configuration, and segment registers. I'm not saying it doesn't have its merits now, I'm saying that it didn't get where it was by being the best.
Perhaps then FreeBSD should re-evaluate their position? But I certainly know NetBSD could be a contender because it can read AmigaOS files natively. POSIX support is important for a better OS for Amiga I agree...
Any Linux distro can read Amiga files natively, it's right there in the kernel build options and easily done through FUSE even if it's not compiled in. Hell, Windows can read Amiga filesystems with some finagling. And what would you mean by FreeBSD "re-evaluating their position?" They could ship some non-X environment, but all that would mean is a lot of work building an X compatibility layer. X apps would still be poorly designed by people who know nothing about good UI. Unix technology isn't (most of) the problem, it's Unix culture.
Yes, but not when you include iOS as part of the make-up. The potential for Apple to utilise this as an underpinning is huge...just look at how the new iOS5 update has 'freed' people from their computers when updating their phones/iPads.
I thought we weren't counting phones/tablets? I certainly wouldn't, they're even less of an either/or proposition than computers. Lots of people have a Windows machine and an iPhone or iPad.
I think there's a lot more potential for Amiga to develop even further now as a new system than ever before. Just look at Aros' latest posting. They are now supporting Nvidia's Fermi cards right out of the box! Now that's what we need to revitalise the brand and userbase....
Yeah, no argument there. But that's kind of exactly my point - projects like AROS and MorphOS are actively developed, support newer, more powerful, more available hardware, and are still infinitely closer to being "Amiga" than a PC running Linux with a sticker on the box.
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I think we all want the Amiga to be successful....
.. but finding a successful platform and sticking an Amiga sticker doesn't make the Amiga successful. It just makes it look like you can't accept the fact that the Amiga isn't successful.
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I think we all want the Amiga to be successful....
Indeed, and it's a little bit too late for that, isn't it?
.. but finding a successful platform and sticking an Amiga sticker doesn't make the Amiga successful. It just makes it look like you can't accept the fact that the Amiga isn't successful.
Well said.
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I've created a monster!
QUOTE "so when people talk about using pc technology in a more efficient intelligent way as amiga would have had to adapt to do then any new amiga should use ibm xenon cpu/superior memory bus architecture to mac or pc/top end graphics chip."
you sound like barry.
It was the only sensible way to go 4 years ago for price performance. Barry has no clue beyond Ubuntu and low-rent badly designed cases with low quality PC motherboards (some not even capable of 720p HD video playback unlike my laptop from 2006).
I have read through this monster I have created and well two things come to mind.
1. Amiga as a new on the shelf computer is dead NOT the Amiga scene.
2. People are confusing Amiga computers with OS4 compatible PPC hardware.
Amiga introduced all of us to unique things for a personal/home computer back in the mists of time, from an OS perspective I can't really think of anything Amiga OS4 (or MoS) does that you can't do on Win7/OSX/Linux and for less money to boot.
So my point is the OS has no advantage (many disadvantages actually) and hardware has nothing in the spirit of even the A1200 let alone the A1000 on launch day.
Amiga was born of a time when all this creative technology needed to be brought together....PCs and Macs certainly would have no use for something like Digiview.....EGA pictures rendered from 21 million colour internally captured images.....methinks not!
But also the Amiga even in the time of the Sega Genesis/Megadrive in 1990/89 could (if programmed properly with care and talent) produce equally as good games from it's unenhanced 1985 chipset still in the A3000/2000/500 models of that time.
Today if you buy an X1000 can you even play games as well as on a £125 Xbox 360? Can you browse all the sites on the net that someone with Windows/OSX/Linux and Chrome browser can? Can you even do something as simple as listen/view any media that VLC can handle?
That's a no, no and no. My point exactly.
The only people that actually go against the PC/Mac hardware grain worth talking about is Sony and Microsoft's consoles. They have no choice but to find ways to deliver 200-300% better price/performance than launch day gaming PC standard for a ceiling price. And it may be something much more groundbreaking too that needs to happen. Like Wi-mote on Wii (heavily underpowered console with PS2 quality graphics that sold 100s of millions) or even Kinect.
IF, and I really do mean IF, there ever is to be an Amiga again it would need to both have a new OS and also deviously designed hardware on a level of superiority that the £299 Xbox 360 had on launch day in September 2006. For me it will NEVER happen ipso facto Amiga died in 1994. YMMV if you have very low expectations what Amiga stood for and what place it held in the marketplace in it's prime years.
X1000 and SAM460 are our flagships? Well you can keep them then......I will spend my money on something from the 80s that is still superior to front wheel drive rubbish sold today....A BMW 325i Sport* from 1989. X1000 is a Mazda 323 2.0L whereas the direct descendant of my car in 1989 is a 2011 BMW 1M....a car that today is STILL the best 2 door sports coupe that is within the grasp of ordinary people with a decent salary :)
I have 3 Amigas (6 if you include dead ones) and use them whenever I have time, this is not about my faith being lost in how lovely those machines are and are much more enjoyable than any double click on the WinUAE icon on a directory will ever serve me!
(*funnily enough a car which I owned whilst I used the superior Amiga 1000 on my desk to do things no other computer could do thanks to a combination of hardware and software unique to the platform which could never be transferred to lesser tech like 68k Mac or PC or Atari ST)
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I think we all want the Amiga to be successful....
.. but finding a successful platform and sticking an Amiga sticker doesn't make the Amiga successful. It just makes it look like you can't accept the fact that the Amiga isn't successful.
==Then let me tell you something my friend....
Despite what you think, the Amiga IS already successful and it's on a commercial platform already TODAY. But it's not known in the general public on this secret I'm about to tell you......that the Sony Playstation 3, is an Amiga underneath....
I say this because if you watch the very first E3 when Sony launched their Playstation line-up back in 2005, the demo tester admits on stage the PS3 'is an Amiga clone'.
The strange story of the Amiga-clone PS3 began right after Gateway went bankrupt. At the time Intel realized Amiga's designs were still significant so they went on an IP shopping trip to buy up what was left of Gateway's Amiga IPs. They used this knowledge, and with HP went onto create what was the IA-64 and Itanium chipsets from those designs. Sony, knowing Intel had the rights to the Amiga design, approached Intel for permission to use it in a console. The rest as they say is history...
So, if you really still want your modern Amiga, you can today. Just ask Sony to create a special board for an all-in-one computer OR ask Intel to develop a system based around the IA-64 chip, and you'll get there. Or even better, get a PS3 and a copy of BF3 on it. Because THAT IS an Amiga underneath it all. All that's missing is the sticker.....
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Digiman you have unleashed a monster. But a good kind of monster as it brought a good bit of debating to the forum. Been actually an ineteresting read.
If we are talking hypothetically now then here is what I would like to see. A system that is powerful and uses new and interesting tech but doesn't cost the world. That has the os to match, been responsive and speedy without needing the resources of a small nation to run. Its has to be a joy to use on a daily basis and not feel like a chore everytime you look at the screen.
But I know this won't happen.
Now this is a view that I have never shared with anyone beyond a few tech geek friends over a beer. If Commodore was still around today, in their original form, I think they would probably be into the tablet market right now. The scope for new and creative tech in this section of the computing world would have been right up their ally in my view. I could quite easily see the Amiga spirit been put to good use with these devices. Imagine if something like the amiga architecture, but obviously a modernised version, running in a tablet form. Along with a modernised Workbench os to go with it.
Call it daft but this is were I feel Commodore would have gone. Or maybe even into the server side of things.
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Call it daft
Okay: it's daft. Tablets are a marketing-department fad toy, designed to make futurists think they're living in the future and nerds think they're living in Star Trek: The Next Generation. They're a shoddy compromise between the smartphone and the laptop that inherits the disadvantages of both and the advantages of neither. Feh.
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Now this is where I would have to disagree with you. When tablets first came out I would have agreed that they were gimicky and appealed to the "Oh look how futuristic I look" geeks. They were clunky, awkward to use and weren't all that powerful. Now though, as both the technology and software behind them is starting mature they are having more of an impact. I know they wouldn't replace a full desktop computer. But I can see their appeal growing more and more.
And I can still see Commodore, if they were still around, venturing into this branch of the market. Making affordable, yet powerful, hardware and software.
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The trouble with this thread and the people arguing in it is they are comparing the wrong things.
It does not matter how advanced the Amiga was when it came out.
The price was/is insignificant.
It does not matter what chip set it had.
All these things just make something more desirable or less desirable based on ones individual perception and also, it's a time expiring value in most cases.
What I'm basically saying is if you fell in love just because the Amiga was x, y and z it wasn't bound to last and is misplaced loyalty
What does matter is keeping the Amiga ideal (what Aros and MOS have successfully tapped into) and AmigaOS alive and for me personally Custom Hardware is very important as well... If they ever made AmigaOS portable and didn't continue the custom hardware line that is probably when I'd end my Amiga crusade...
For me the X1000 for example is very cool and try as you may you just won't feel the same way with any other computer system... sure, you've got your power users but they don't care about what they're running as much as how fast its running... anyway, I think you understand...
In short alot of these retro Amiga users never actually loved the Amiga itself but what it represented and did at the time... it is no wonder they do not want to migrate to modern pastures
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Now this is where I would have to disagree with you. When tablets first came out I would have agreed that they were gimicky and appealed to the "Oh look how futuristic I look" geeks. They were clunky, awkward to use and weren't all that powerful. Now though, as both the technology and software behind them is starting mature they are having more of an impact. I know they wouldn't replace a full desktop computer. But I can see their appeal growing more and more.
Nope. They've improved, but considering the stunted baseline they started from, that's not saying much. You can pile on the improvements as much as you like, but they're still going to be a laptop someone's chopped the keyboard off of.
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I have to stress that my view has no solid basis and is just hypothetical at best based on what Commodore would have done if it was still around in my own little imaginery bubble lol. And that would have been both desktop/laptop hardware and tablet hardware.
I loved the Amiga not only for it's hardware and software but also for how it impacted in my personal computing world. Regardless of the leaps and bounds it represented in the wider computing world. It's one of only two computers I have ever actually ever felt completely, 100%, no questions asked comfortable with. And the other computer was a C64 that my dad bought only a few months before I was born in 82 :)
Everything else I have liked but never truely loved the same way.
Nope. They've improved, but considering the stunted baseline they started from, that's not saying much. You can pile on the improvements as much as you like, but they're still going to be a laptop someone's chopped the keyboard off of.
I think it's just a slow starter in technological life. They are still tinkering with what makes them tick and it doesn't help that the playfield keeps shifting so wildly with every new step forward. Which is why I think it would have been interesting to see how Commodore would have approached this.
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Now this is where I would have to disagree with you. When tablets first came out I would have agreed that they were gimicky and appealed to the "Oh look how futuristic I look" geeks. They were clunky, awkward to use and weren't all that powerful. Now though, as both the technology and software behind them is starting mature they are having more of an impact. I know they wouldn't replace a full desktop computer. But I can see their appeal growing more and more.
And I can still see Commodore, if they were still around, venturing into this branch of the market. Making affordable, yet powerful, hardware and software.
==Well Commodore IS around today, they're just simply called 'the company whose name shall not be mentioned' on here....:roflmao:
Honestly the guys at CUSA are doing a really fine job at the moment despite the product announcement mishaps and whatnot. Moving to the Intel platform is a small concession to pay for everyone to get all that C= goodness once more. At least the new PC-based Amiga is no longer going to be based on parts that are not obsolete or are underpowered. They're going to be based on high quality, affordable (and abundant) PC parts, right on par with the competition. And the great thing about it (apart from the C= and checkmark on the case) is if you don't like to use WinUAE in Linux Mint or Commodore OS, well just load up Aros instead - there's plenty of choice! That'll probably be your closest Amiga based experience from a PC you'll ever get, with the speed and specs to match running the latest greatest stuff on Windows.
I got my C64x Ultimate for my birthday this year. For next year I'm hoping to get a new Amiga A500 PC based on the RG Marett design that Barry promised. Despite what you guys may say that it's 'just a PC', that's really the new Amiga that I'm waiting for....with looks and specs to match....
Unless of course Aros decides to hook up with Sony and produce a Playstation/Amiga computer. But I don't think that's ever going to happen...
Now for those who may think I was kidding about the Gateway-Intel-Sony story, look up on who bought the company ICP-Vortex, the makers of the original GoldenGate 486SLC bridgeboard for Amiga. As it happens the link about this was originally from A.org back in 2001 >
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=42197[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=42197)
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Hmmm maybe not eh. There is a difference between been Commodore and only having its name. And the USA outfit is a name only affair as far as I am concerned as it shares nothing with its namesake. But let's not bicker about this anyway because its too early in the morning to really be bothered. ;)
Edit--
Thanks for the link. Didn't think you were joking but its always good to post some linkage :D
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Despite what you guys may say that it's 'just a PC', that's really the new Amiga that I'm waiting for.... (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=42197)
Why wait? If that's all it takes to be "Amiga" to you, you can have it right now!
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The trouble with this thread and the people arguing in it is they are comparing the wrong things.
It does not matter how advanced the Amiga was when it came out.
The price was/is insignificant.
It does not matter what chip set it had.
All these things just make something more desirable or less desirable based on ones individual perception and also, it's a time expiring value in most cases.
What I'm basically saying is if you fell in love just because the Amiga was x, y and z it wasn't bound to last and is misplaced loyalty
But it does matter, that was the whole point. I got an A1000 coming from 6 months of ownership of an Atari ST (and 4 years ownership of a C64) and the Amiga was the first time it all gelled together IMO. And for this it does matter because the things that Amiga brought to the world of desktop home computing were only possible due to it's unique features.
Multimedia......only possible due to the OCS chipset. So what you take for granted today was born of a machine that could.....
You said "It does not matter how advanced the Amiga was when it came out."
1. Play any sound in stereo, not a soundchip noise but ANY sound ever been digitally sampled.
2. Play realtime animation at 25/30FPS in colour, again this is only thanks to the architecture of the machine.
3. Almost photo-realistic digitized images, again only possible thanks to the ability to display 320 x 512 pixel images in HAM due to OCS.
4. Ability to run many pieces of software together in a multi-tasking GUI. Again only possible because you could have a 4.5mb Amiga but only a 640kb PC or 1mb ST or Mac.
5. Arcade quality games in the true sense of the word (e.g. 1986 release of Marble Madness) compare that to the PC or Atari ST version of 1986.
6. Video production work friendly out of the box even with an A500 + Genlock + software. PC/Mac/ST couldn't do this because they weren't designed to do it.
Obviously we take this all for granted when we switch on our computers today, but it is Amiga in the mid 80s that laid the revolutionary ground work to show people that was the future and also how Windows v1 or 286 (v2) was just pathetic. Pre-emptive multitasking is what IBM sought help with (in exchange for their REXX batch language) from Commodore when designing OS/2 for PC. And it is features no modern operating system can do without.
PCs ended up with DAC based stereo sound hardware, millions of colours on screen (initially only as a slow Hold and Modify style mode with ISA for still images) via better hardware and after 25 years multi-tasking is quite usable on Windows and Mac.
BUT......there is no guarantee that any of this would have happened had Amiga not set the benchmark so high initially.
So you see, the unique advanced architecture is really what made it possible. Now I totally understand when people say this can't happen again because we are pretty much there these days (Windows crashes less, makes a good attempt to multitask even if it is horribly inefficient and even Ubuntu is media rich out of the box...a FREE OS) and so that only leaves price and games playing ability.
And price advantage as far as cutting edge (technically) gaming was the sole domain of consoles a couple of years ago. Whether the next Playstation or Xbox will have an x86-64bit compatible CPU or something totally alien in architecture as in the current versions your guess is as good as mine. Today all three consoles have PPC derived CPUs, next generation it may all be super hot AMD 64bit CPUs with a bulk discount only Sony/Microsoft can commit to in quantity terms. What it won't be is a PC motherboard in a slimline case ;)
And as a final note, there is no reason why the next generation of Amigas after AGA if Commodore had not gone under couldn't use x86 CPUs. The Konix Multisystem Console had an 8086 but mated to totally alien bus interface and non standard cutting edge custom chipset. The CPU is not that important if your machine's performance is derived from custom silicon rich motherboard.
Even the ST was considered in the early stages of design with a possible 8086 CPU instead of the 68000. :)
Peace to you all, I am happy with my A1000 and 325i Sport, both may be considered 'classics' or 'old school' but I will use both for the pleasure of the experience on a daily basis when I am retired soon. And this good feeling is where my new Buck Rogers game will come from :)
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The strange story of the Amiga-clone PS3 began right after Gateway went bankrupt. At the time Intel realized Amiga's designs were still significant so they went on an IP shopping trip to buy up what was left of Gateway's Amiga IPs. They used this knowledge, and with HP went onto create what was the IA-64 and Itanium chipsets from those designs. Sony, knowing Intel had the rights to the Amiga design, approached Intel for permission to use it in a console. The rest as they say is history...
I don't know if you're joking or not.
No design from the Amiga ended up in the PS3. Although the CPU that Sony/Toshiba/IBM developed ended up in the xbox 360.
The Itanium design wasn't based on the Amiga and wasn't used in the PS3.
Zorro and PCI have simularities as does WAV and IFF. That is about it in terms of technology that escaped.
All of this generations consoles (PS3/XBOX360/WII) have more in common with the gamecube than the amiga.
ICP-Vortex made high performance RAID controllers when Intel bought them. Adaptec seem to own them now.
http://www.treadlayers.com/PC_Hardware/Storage/SATA_RAID/RAID_4.shtml
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It does not matter how advanced the Amiga was when it came out.
The price was/is insignificant.
It does not matter what chip set it had.
I think those points were significant. If it had the same performance as a sinclair spectrum but a higher price then it would not have sold at all.
The only viable competition was the ST, the Acorn Archimedes was too expensive and didn't have enough games. However the ST wasn't cheap enough to make up for the lack of power, so it only appealed to those who wanted built in MIDI or couldn't (or wouldn't) pay for an Amiga.
There was a time when Amiga could have competed against PC's, but that time is long gone.
You're right that blind loyalty to a brand shouldn't be enough to encourage you to part with money. Although I'm sure there are some people that will feel good about buying an X1000, retail therapy isn't particularly healthy in the long term (unless you never run out of money).
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I don't know if you're joking or not.
No design from the Amiga ended up in the PS3. Although the CPU that Sony/Toshiba/IBM developed ended up in the xbox 360.
The Itanium design wasn't based on the Amiga and wasn't used in the PS3.
Zorro and PCI have simularities as does WAV and IFF. That is about it in terms of technology that escaped.
All of this generations consoles (PS3/XBOX360/WII) have more in common with the gamecube than the amiga.
ICP-Vortex made high performance RAID controllers when Intel bought them. Adaptec seem to own them now.
http://www.treadlayers.com/PC_Hardware/Storage/SATA_RAID/RAID_4.shtml
==My friend, didn't you read what I had written. I told you it was a secret...it's not known but it's the truth.
The ICP-Vortex purchase for RAID controllers was really only a front (the sale to Adaptec came 2 years later after the buyout). The real strategic move for Intel was getting their hands on the Amiga technical knowhow from Gateway and from ICP on how their bridgeboard interfaces with the Amiga setup.
Ask yourself the question.....why would Intel (big company as they are) have any interest in the Amiga? Because of its unique parallel-processing design. This was the real reason for them buying ICP. Shortly after it was what allowed them to reveal advances in their X86/IA-64 architecture and subsequent developments in silicon for CELL group (Sony/Toshiba/IBM).
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Hmmm maybe not eh. There is a difference between been Commodore and only having its name. And the USA outfit is a name only affair as far as I am concerned as it shares nothing with its namesake. But let's not bicker about this anyway because its too early in the morning to really be bothered. ;)
Edit--
Thanks for the link. Didn't think you were joking but its always good to post some linkage :D
Yes Crit, it always is.....:D
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==My friend, didn't you read what I had written. I told you it was a secret...it's not known but it's the truth.
The ICP-Vortex purchase for RAID controllers was really only a front (the sale to Adaptec came 2 years later after the buyout). The real strategic move for Intel was getting their hands on the Amiga technical knowhow from Gateway and from ICP on how their bridgeboard interfaces with the Amiga setup.
Ask yourself the question.....why would Intel (big company as they are) have any interest in the Amiga? Because of its unique parallel-processing design. This was the real reason for them buying ICP. Shortly after it was what allowed them to reveal advances in their X86/IA-64 architecture and subsequent developments in silicon for CELL group (Sony/Toshiba/IBM).
IBM, unlike Apple, had a lot of interest in Amiga technology. Even Amstrad approached Commodore in an attempt to license the OCS chipset for use in an Amiga chipset based home computer....which they refused as usual.
OS/2 is so much better than Windows 95 simply because IBM were given the chance to exchange technical information in great detail with Commodore. As Commodore had no intention of giving details of how the hardware worked or licensing it the best they could gleen from Commodore was how Kickstart/Workbench worked and why it was such an efficient multi-tasking system. I doubt EISA has much to do with Zorro II or III.
The only thing I know about PS3 though is there was talk of people being interested in running OS4 on the machine, I don't personally know anything beyond that. All I can say is CELL and Xenon (the Xbox 360 CPU) are all PPC based processors, which in turn are improvements on the 680x0 line of processors. But then that is all down to Motorola not Commodore, they just bought the chip off the shelf and used it as instructed by RJ/Jay/Dave for the A1000 (and beyond).
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Running os4 on ps3 is a fantastic idea. Which is why it will never happen.
The amiga grave robbers won't let people have access to inexpensive fast hardware when they are charging 1000$+ for a 1ghz 10 year old motherboard and processor that was originally manufactured for embedded applications.
Ps3's cost what? 200-300$ bucks used and are VASTLY technically superior in every way to every other os4 machine currently available, including the x1000.
Steven
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Ask yourself the question.....why would Intel (big company as they are) have any interest in the Amiga?
Intel had no interest in the Amiga. You are pre-supposing that they did.
There is nothing in the Amiga that could help anybody make modern hardware.
All I can say is CELL and Xenon (the Xbox 360 CPU) are all PPC based processors, which in turn are improvements on the 680x0 line of processors.
The PPC doesn't have much in common with the 680x0, the first chips were IBM POWER chips that were shrunk, modified to use the 88000 bus and then manufactured under license by Motorola (Motorola's own RISC processor the 88000 didn't do very well so it made sense to go into business with IBM). PPC didn't come into the Amiga's history until after Commodore were dead & it only happened because Apple had made a similar transition (not because of simularities between the processors but because there was nothing else apart from Intel).
Windows 95 was Windows 3.1 with some tweaks, that was why OS/2 was arguably better (although it wasn't until OS/2 3.0 that you could say it was better with a straight face as the earlier versions were horrible). Windows NT was better than OS/2 & that was based on VMS, which predated the Amiga by a very long shot.
The only reason that Windows 95 existed at all is because Microsoft needed a new product and Windows NT was going to need more RAM than consumers were prepared to buy.
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Ask yourself the question.....why would Intel (big company as they are) have any interest in the Amiga?
Intel had no interest in the Amiga. You are pre-supposing that they did.
It's a conspiracy theory with no logical basis.
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Windows 95 whilst being quite a quick and dirty way of doing it was fast, extremely fast. How do I know? Because there is no Linux equivalent remotely as usable on a Libretto 30CT (100mhz 586 + 8mb Ram) as Win 95.
So whilst it is like a rust hole filled Alfa Romeo car (memory leaks and GDI resource leaks) it is quick and that's why it sold, that and the fact that Windows 3.1 was just a weird GUI.
OS/2 did however do things properly, even process threading etc. And actually OS/2 is the best OS for playing DOS games....the only way you can assign 640kb to the DOS game easily without messing about with config.sys etc of DOS :roflmao:
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And actually OS/2 is the best OS for playing DOS games....the only way you can assign 640kb to the DOS game easily without messing about with config.sys etc of DOS :roflmao:
I went from DOS -> Windows 3.1 -> OS/2 -> Windows 95 -> Windows NT4. I didn't stay on OS/2 for very long. I also ran the latest Amiga OS versions at the same time. Both had features I wish the other had (I still miss ASSIGN's).
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Running os4 on ps3 is a fantastic idea. Which is why it will never happen.
The amiga grave robbers won't let people have access to inexpensive fast hardware when they are charging 1000$+ for a 1ghz 10 year old motherboard and processor that was originally manufactured for embedded applications.
Ps3's cost what? 200-300$ bucks used and are VASTLY technically superior in every way to every other os4 machine currently available, including the x1000.
Steven
I want you to go the following links. These are from a few years back. You'll see some with comments (from those in the know) about the PS3 being an Amiga:
http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=180192
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&prmdo=1&source=hp&q=HRHShawnPendragone+Sony&pbx=1&oq=HRHShawnPendragone+Sony&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=42002l42840l2l43034l5l4l0l0l0l0l140l394l2.2l4l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=eeafcb3436656125&biw=1021&bih=656
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&prmdo=1&source=hp&q=Intel+gave+sony+the+right+to%EF%BB%BF+use+the+(amiga)&pbx=1&oq=Intel+gave+sony+the+right+to%EF%BB%BF+use+the+(amiga)&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1628l1628l0l2227l1l1l0l0l0l0l82l82l1l1l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=eeafcb3436656125&biw=1021&bih=656
For the second link, look at the comments in the top Youtube link about Sony and Intel.
For the third link, go to Google and just highlight the right arrow (because the user has left). It'll say on the bottom that Sony and Intel signed an NDA agreement at the St Louis show in 2000.
And if you don't believe me (again), go to the Register, to a news item from 2009 where it reports that INTEL is developing the graphics chip for Sony's PS4. >
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1a050851/intel-design-playstation-gpu
Now why the hell is Intel involved with the graphics chip of the PS4 if it's not relevant!?!! Shouldn't it be Nvidia or ATI who should be developing it?
Now that some of you should be curious or at least reasonably convinced, let me explain how I got to know this. How I knew this was true was I followed the comments a while back, (of this guy on Youtube) called Shawn Pendragone and did some of my own research as a result. The above page about ICP-Vortex came from one of my own searches. And I was amazed how it linked back right to Amiga (through the GoldenGate 486 bridge board relation).
Basically the story is what I had said earlier. After Gateway went bankrupt they sold most of their Amiga patents and architectural designs in secret to Intel to cover their losses. Intel, believing they should try to remove a competitor outright bought the Amiga plans from Gateway and had the Amiga IP for a while until they could figure out a way to develop them. Eventually they did - and they found a partner with HP.
So the research of the development of the Amiga architecture split into 2 groups. IA-64 or Itanium (with HP) and the Cell chip with Sony/IBM/Toshiba. Intel had gotten most of their architecture plans from Gateway and the Itanium chip derived most of the designs from this (albeit independently with a fair bit of modification). For Sony, who at the time was looking for a suitable replacement for the PS2, came across Intel, and they signed an NDA with them on the Itanium/Amiga plans (non disclosure agreement) in 2000, which was basically an agreement giving them the architecture plans of the Amiga design (for use in the PS3). For Sony, working with IBM (who was already part of the PowerPC team with Motorola and Apple) this gave them an unprecedented advantage in developing the chipset.
Ask yourself why Sony during that period was able to produce a chipset for their PS3 in such a quick time. Normally architectures and even CPU designs takes a huge amount of time to create and develop - but here was Sony with their PS3, and it did it in less than 5 years….5 years (with a team of over 400 engineers) to integrate their PS2 and come up with a brand new system. That is far less than the engineers they have at Apple! You have to imagine Sony must've had to rely on something so they could work with it. They did, and it was the Itanium/IA-64/Amiga architecture.
This is why in the first generation of PS3s were able to run Linux and other OSes on the PS3 - because it was essentially a (Amiga) computer. In the case of PS3, it can be used with Linux, or Yellow Dog Linux. Because IBM (being part of the Cell group) also has Cell bridge boards you could buy which used to be supplied by Fixstars > http://www.fixstars.com.
Just to show you the 'proof' of what I'm talking about, here is a Yellow Dog Linux setup running Amiga games really smooth on UAE > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEklKwJoyjI
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Both AMD & Intel are working to integrate powerful CPU AND GPU onto a single chip. I guess that is the PS4 reference.
Also even PS2 slamdunks even triple A prototype AND Hombre chipset.
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So Cartman was right about Kyle's responsibility for 9-11?
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So you see, the unique advanced architecture is really what made it possible. Now I totally understand when people say this can't happen again because we are pretty much there these days (Windows crashes less, makes a good attempt to multitask even if it is horribly inefficient and even Ubuntu is media rich out of the box...a FREE OS) and so that only leaves price and games playing ability.
I don't think so. A good design (even if it's a dated good design) is a hell of a lot more interesting of a thing to retain and revive than trying to recapture this or that place in the market. Marketing and its tactics leech the life and the interestingness out of anything as a matter of course, so that actual unique features and quirks can't get in the way of The Plan. You try and revive the Amiga by recapturing its position in the market, all you're going to do is turn it into definitionless mush.
The CPU is not that important if your machine's performance is derived from custom silicon rich motherboard.
As a programmer, yes it is. I like having a system on which I can easily do assembler, and I like 68k assembler best. The CPU is the lynchpin of any computer design, even a coprocessor-oriented one like the Amiga; it definitely matters.
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Running os4 on ps3 is a fantastic idea. Which is why it will never happen.
The amiga grave robbers won't let people have access to inexpensive fast hardware when they are charging 1000$+ for a 1ghz 10 year old motherboard and processor that was originally manufactured for embedded applications.
Ps3's cost what? 200-300$ bucks used and are VASTLY technically superior in every way to every other os4 machine currently available, including the x1000.
Steven
It won't happen for the same reason you won't see MorphOS on a PS3, it would have to run on a hacked console.
Hyperion and the MOS developers wouldn't want to run the risk of lawsuits from Sony.
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This is why in the first generation of PS3s were able to run Linux and other OSes on the PS3 - because it was essentially a (Amiga) computer. In the case of PS3, it can be used with Linux, or Yellow Dog Linux. Because IBM (being part of the Cell group) also has Cell bridge boards you could buy which used to be supplied by Fixstars > www.fixstars.com (http://www.fixstars.com).
Just to show you the 'proof' of what I'm talking about, here is a Yellow Dog Linux setup running Amiga games really smooth on UAE > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEklKwJoyjI
LOL, I hope for your sake you are joking but this stuff is priceless.
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But it does matter, that was the whole point. I got an A1000 coming from 6 months of ownership of an Atari ST (and 4 years ownership of a C64) and the Amiga was the first time it all gelled together IMO. And for this it does matter because the things that Amiga brought to the world of desktop home computing were only possible due to it's unique features.
Multimedia......only possible due to the OCS chipset. So what you take for granted today was born of a machine that could.....
Not as such. If you look at computing history of the day, it was being driven forward by a need for integrated media; the CD-ROM had been introduced earlier in '85, a technology C= only halfheartedly embraced (yes, yes, the CDTV and CD32, but how many actual C= desktop machines shipped with a CD-ROM drive? Zero, and saying "but the CDTV was a desktop amiga" is like saying a Roku Box is a desktop computer)
1. Play any sound in stereo, not a soundchip noise but ANY sound ever been digitally sampled.
Oh yeah; Amiga sound was pretty friggin' awesome when it hit. :)
2. Play realtime animation at 25/30FPS in colour, again this is only thanks to the architecture of the machine.
3. Almost photo-realistic digitized images, again only possible thanks to the ability to display 320 x 512 pixel images in HAM due to OCS.
Actually there were a few pieces of h/w that could manage this on other platforms; the IBM Professional Graphics System (required a dedicated monitor and was very pricy).
4. Ability to run many pieces of software together in a multi-tasking GUI. Again only possible because you could have a 4.5mb Amiga but only a 640kb PC or 1mb ST or Mac.
The Alto and Star (Xerox) were both managing to do this as well. With that said, the "640k only" thing is a myth. You can (and people did) have more memory than that on the PC. OS/2 and its GUI were already in development when the Amiga was released, so it's not like IBM and MS said "Oh crap copy that, we gotta do that too!" all of the sudden.
5. Arcade quality games in the true sense of the word (e.g. 1986 release of Marble Madness) compare that to the PC or Atari ST version of 1986.
Oh no doubt here; although I will say it comes down to coders - the Amiga conversion of Black Tiger, f'rex, looks like kak compared to the original arcade version.
6. Video production work friendly out of the box even with an A500 + Genlock + software. PC/Mac/ST couldn't do this because they weren't designed to do it.
Well...heh, saying "out of the box" and the pointing out you needed a genlock and software is a bit disingenuous, but the genlocks and software for the PC were orders of magnitudes more expensive.
(Also, was there anything the ST was designed to do well other than "be sold first"? Lousy audio (onboard, not the midi capabilities), lousy graphics, they never ever ever got a "big box" model together...pah)
BUT......there is no guarantee that any of this would have happened had Amiga not set the benchmark so high initially.
I think that's highly questionable. Loads of companies were already on the road with GUIs; media integration would have come along as an inevitability.
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With that said, the "640k only" thing is a myth. You can (and people did) have more memory than that on the PC.
This is true, but it's only anywhere even approaching convenient on a 386 in protected mode; 8086 is limited to 1MB total address space (and hence, on the PC, 640KB conventional memory,) and nobody even bothered with the 286's protected mode. You could get more with EMS, but that's nowhere near as convenient as an actual expansion of address space.
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This is true, but it's only anywhere even approaching convenient on a 386 in protected mode; 8086 is limited to 1MB total address space (and hence, on the PC, 640KB conventional memory,) and nobody even bothered with the 286's protected mode. You could get more with EMS, but that's nowhere near as convenient as an actual expansion of address space.
Now that I won't argue.
It floors me that a '386 can address up to 4gb of RAM (note: I don't think there was ever a chipset or OS of the day that could manage this, but it'd make a neat garage project now that they can be had for the price of postage ;) )
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A 4gb 386... That would be worth seeing lol.
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Heh, that would be something :lol:
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Actually 386 and 486 boards are getting rarer lately, and people on ebay are selling them for ridiculous prices to robotics and electronics experimenters.
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Actually 386 and 486 boards are getting rarer lately, and people on ebay are selling them for ridiculous prices to robotics and electronics experimenters.
Are there people dumb enough to be buying them, Steven?
And since, AFAIK, there are no chipsets that allow 386 or 486 processors to access modern RAM, a 4GB 386 or 486 combination is virtually impossible (as well as being pointless and extremely silly).
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And since, AFAIK, there are no chipsets that allow 386 or 486 processors to access modern RAM, a 4GB 386 or 486 combination is virtually impossible (as well as being pointless and extremely silly).
You say that like it makes it not awesome.
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I can't help but imagine what my 66mhz 486 DX2 would have been like with 4 gb of ram lol. Would have been awesome. Not as awesome as my Amiga but still pretty awesome.
@iggy
I would buy another 486 pc so I could run some of the old DOS games. Plenty of games I wanted to get into but never actually bought. That si if they were reasonably priced.
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It won't happen for the same reason you won't see MorphOS on a PS3, it would have to run on a hacked console.
Hyperion and the MOS developers wouldn't want to run the risk of lawsuits from Sony.
==Well that won't be necessary...
There is another system that it can run on.....Sony's own Zego blade servers.
> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zego
The Zego was launched within the last year and is basically a PS3 system on a blade server used by Sony for its video editing broadcasting businesses (funny eh how this is SO Amiga?). The chip is like the Cell chip only fully enabled on the 8 cores (unlike PS3's which are disabled on one) so potentially it gives us 33% more performance than a regular PS3 setup. It runs on Yellow Dog (Linux).
The other card of course is the IBM PowerXCell 8i. This is a Cell-based PCI Express card that is basically a full computer on a card >
http://wrice.blogspot.com/2011/02/power-xcell-8i-as-pci-card.html?m=1
Or you could try to use IBM's range of Cell Blade Server which I think is more reasonable and logical.... > http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/bladecenter/hardware/servers/qs22/index.html
Using the QS22 APIs and tools, apparently it can run both x86 and POWER code without much work > http://www.beyond3d.com/content/news/640
The Cell is very powerful.....don't forget it can theoretically use up to 256GB of memory! And yeah it would have been nice to see how my 486DX 66 Overdrive faired with 4gig lol.
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I can't help but imagine what my 66mhz 486 DX2 would have been like with 4 gb of ram lol. Would have been awesome. Not as awesome as my Amiga but still pretty awesome.
@iggy
I would buy another 486 pc so I could run some of the old DOS games. Plenty of games I wanted to get into but never actually bought. That si if they were reasonably priced.
DOSBox. Even has 3dfx support(-ish)
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Seems like Leo is trying to reach out to the communities... Wonder why it hasn't turned up on here but oh well time for some linkies
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=34729&forum=17
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I still think many peoples stances these days are based on "hindsight"
I for one did not buy the Amiga because it was the best thing on the market at the time... it was just a coincidence
I've brought into the NG line of Amigas because I never stopped being an Amiga User and I want to continue using an evolving AmigaOS (I'm actually going to code for AmigaOS). The original Amiga was a vision and it was realised... the X1000 is a vision and it is realised too...
Leave the Amiga in peace; for a lot of you, it isn't the Amiga who is dead it's your involvement with her that is... adios and good luck just please please say good bye!
You'll thank me for it, eventually :-)
And I don't want to hear questions in the future about hows the X1000 cpu upgrade or hows that X2000 going... by then (say 2 years) you should be well, well on your way to recovering without talking about the Amiga anymore :-)
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I was going to buy one of the original AmigaONE machines way back in the past, at that time given PC price/performance it was worth a gamble.
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I still think many peoples stances these days are based on "hindsight"
I for one did not buy the Amiga because it was the best thing on the market at the time... it was just a coincidence
I've brought into the NG line of Amigas because I never stopped being an Amiga User and I want to continue using an evolving AmigaOS (I'm actually going to code for AmigaOS). The original Amiga was a vision and it was realised... the X1000 is a vision and it is realised too...
Leave the Amiga in peace; for a lot of you, it isn't the Amiga who is dead it's your involvement with her that is... adios and good luck just please please say good bye!
You'll thank me for it, eventually :-)
And I don't want to hear questions in the future about hows the X1000 cpu upgrade or hows that X2000 going... by then (say 2 years) you should be well, well on your way to recovering without talking about the Amiga anymore :-)
Well the reason for this thread is there is no cost effective Amiga option in terms of price/performance. Amiga (from Commodore) was ALWAYS cost effective. Ipso facto Amiga is dead. Walker proto-type was rubbish and ESCOM just rebadged 1991 technology and tried to sell it for 1995 prices. And subsequent owners have done sweet FA.
What I feel about real Amiga computers has nothing to do with how I feel about OS4 compatible PPC machines touted as next gen Amiga. The incompetence and underwhelming ideas coming from Hyperion don't help but it is not their job to provide the cunning hardware required to achieve a 200-300% price/performance advantage over i7 PCs to underpin a new implementation of OS4.
(this is without resorting to sarcastic comments like "if there is no Paula IC on the motherboard it is not an Amiga" so we can keep the discussion in context)
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I still think many peoples stances these days are based on "hindsight"
I for one did not buy the Amiga because it was the best thing on the market at the time... it was just a coincidence
I've brought into the NG line of Amigas because I never stopped being an Amiga User and I want to continue using an evolving AmigaOS
I think there are relatively few people that somehow randomly bought an Amiga back in the 80's and still want to use AmigaOS now. I'd love to know why you bought one if it wasn't because it was the best?
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Seems like Leo is trying to reach out to the communities... Wonder why it hasn't turned up on here but oh well time for some linkies
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=34729&forum=17
Now they try to extend the olive branch? That would've been a good thing to try...oh, two years ago?
I do love that the first response is Franko chiming in with an entirely appropriate and civil answer ;)
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Now they try to extend the olive branch? That would've been a good thing to try...oh, two years ago?
I do love that the first response is Franko chiming in with an entirely appropriate and civil answer ;)
Yeah, and I love Franko.... :lol:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=34735&start=0&post_id=642131&order=0&viewmode=flat&pid=642129&forum=17#642131