Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Jose on November 30, 2011, 08:39:22 PM
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Probably illegal but would it be possible to clone the thing and have it produced in one of those cheap chinese factories ?
I've read some post in a thread here that P5 protected the PLC's or something, but there must be a way around it:)
Note, I personally don't belive cheap chinese salaries is the way to go but unfortunately it's the way the world is going right now..
Just though I'd post something controversial, been long since I used to post more around here...:)
Cheers :pint:
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happy to be wrong, but...
Not feasibly possible and not economically viable.
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Ok, but let's get more deep into it. What type of PLC does it use ? What type of encoding was used when programming it ?
Regarding economics, I bet they could produce it for peanuts if they wanted... :)
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I'd be happy just to see a CyberStorm running inside of PearPC.
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Oh no, are the X86 vs PPC wars still going on ? Well for real speed one can use WinUAE, but I don't think an emulator is the same thing, it's just cool to run Classic hardware and it sells for fortunes on eBay.
This could also be a good way to screw DCE a bit, after all the cards they kept without rapairing them or sending them back (if anyone still remembers that...).
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Probably illegal but would it be possible to clone the thing and have it produced in one of those cheap chinese factories ?
I've read some post in a thread here that P5 protected the PLC's or something, but there must be a way around it:)
Note, I personally don't belive cheap chinese salaries is the way to go but unfortunately it's the way the world is going right now..
Just though I'd post something controversial, been long since I used to post more around here...:)
Cheers :pint:
Are all the components still available? Or will you be digging around in clearance bins of used or shady Chinese counterfeit part sellers to get them?
It might be cheaper to design a new board than to reverse-engineer this old one.
Here's my idea: accelerator board that really only has connectors and an FPGA. Then plug in an existing (ie known good) PowerPC module in some industry standard format (ie. Com-Express) on top of that. Thus the FPGA accelerator board can be a relatively minimal design to connect PCI to the 68K CPU slot, provide a couple other connectors available on your module standard, and the hard stuff like memory bus is already done by someone else. And there's some modules with the newest buyable QorIQ chips on them.
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Surely, with the outrageus prices the CSPPC cards go for these days, one ought to think there would be some business in the PPC for classic market. I like the idea with an FPGA based board. How about N050/N070 on that?
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Probably illegal but would it be possible to clone the thing and have it produced in one of those cheap chinese factories ?
I've read some post in a thread here that P5 protected the PLC's or something, but there must be a way around it:)
Note, I personally don't belive cheap chinese salaries is the way to go but unfortunately it's the way the world is going right now..
Just though I'd post something controversial, been long since I used to post more around here...:)
Cheers :pint:
Even if you get around cloning the boards you may not be able to produce them because of RoHS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Substances_Directive
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Probably illegal but would it be possible to clone the thing and have it produced in one of those cheap chinese factories ?
I've read some post in a thread here that P5 protected the PLC's or something, but there must be a way around it:)
Note, I personally don't believe cheap chinese salaries is the way to go but unfortunately it's the way the world is going right now..
Just though I'd post something controversial, been long since I used to post more around here...:)
Cheers :pint:
Some problems i can see just off the top of my head:
The mach chips used have mostly been obsoleted,so its a chip broker for new old stock here which probably wont be cheap.
You need the code that is in those chips, this is not easy to do since they blow fuses in them to protect it being read....it can be done,but its not a trivial thing and literally involves chopping/drilling/cutting the chips up to restore the blown fuse or other methods..
The 604e's used are obsolete now also, same deal.The 060 is no problem,but theres no cheap replacement for either.
Its a 8+ layer pcb and you have no schematic,the time it would take to get a schematic from a real board with all its components off is not trivial but can be done.
The fast slot connectors are still available,even in Rohs-not a problem there.
So,there is basically nothing on the PPC the chinese can easily/cheaply knock off, the ppc and 060 are the costly parts.other than the Mach chips the other components are still more than likely available.
So in my opinion No,not cost effective.
If you have a few Million to blow,the sky's the limit.
Mech
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The only reason I posted this is that, while not news, CyberstormPPC's are selling over €1000 these days, when they once sold for less than €300 in 2004/5, it's amazing. I never thought prices would keep up this high for such a long time, and the tendency is to go even higher.
Designing a new board is also a fortune, from what I've gathered from the experts.
And even if it did happen it wouldn't be cheap, just look at the new 030 for the 1200.
Natami is looking better and better I guess, I hope they join both worlds and make a PPC / 68k card for it, or maybe just program a PPC core too.
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If those MACH chips are just programmable logic devices then it might be possible to dump the logic without destroying them but its very involved.
http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/entry.php?314-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-1)
From a quick look at the datasheet the MACH chips are a LOT more complex then a basic PAL though.
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Oh no, are the X86 vs PPC wars still going on ? Well for real speed one can use WinUAE, but I don't think an emulator is the same thing, it's just cool to run Classic hardware and it sells for fortunes on eBay.
This could also be a good way to screw DCE a bit, after all the cards they kept without rapairing them or sending them back (if anyone still remembers that...).
Who said anything about a war? I'd rather run it thru emulation than thru nothing at all, which is the current situation.
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Why aren't the good people who made these cards for us make the design, software and the documentation available so that someone can rebuild BlizzardPPC and CyberstormPPC cards?
Or did they stop supporting amiga and amigaos altogether?
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Make a PPC addon for the FPGA Arcade, that way you can use the FPGA to glue original drivers to new hardware?
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They are still about... http://www.dcecom.de/
Good luck getting anything from them.
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The only reason I posted this is that, while not news, CyberstormPPC's are selling over €1000 these days
What? Really?
/me looks over at his CyberstormPPC
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I'd be happy just to see a CyberStorm running inside of PearPC.
It'd probably be easier to make PearPC look like a Sam4**... The CyberStormPPC has two very different CPUs with an unknown interconnect between them. If the goal is to run OS4, that's unnecessarily complicated. Go with the best simple design. (AmigaOneXE/Micro would be similarly simple, but skip emulating the problems there)
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I would just like to see MANY new accelerators, for classic miggies...
Jens is doing Great work for sure,... but I wanna PPC in my 1200 someday... cries... :(
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What? Really?
/me looks over at his CyberstormPPC
Yeah, not always, but it's close :)
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Crying is not gonna help :)
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BTW anyone noticed a few years that chinese guy selling E41J masks very cheap (less than €40 IIRC) ? A few months later I checked and he was selling them for €100 and later he had no more.
Demand and supply does work sometimes in practice, so since now there is demand maybe there is a small profit to be made. Frankly I'm getting fed up with all this and will probably not get anything new and that's what most of us will do. It will all die out and we don't care anymore, we're all starting to have wives and kids and getting into new hobbies:)
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What does DCE ..?, what are they about?
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What does DCE ..?, what are they about?
DCE are the company that inherited the rights to the Phase5 PPC accelerator designs.
I tried buying the rights for the A2000 PPC accelerator from them about 4 years ago (admittedly for not a huge amount of money), they weren't interested in selling, and recommended it would be cheaper to design a board from scratch. Shame really, my idea was to adapt the design for the Minimig, though don't think it's necessary anymore, would much rather let the improvements in FPGA technology give us faster 68k CPUs.
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Are all the components still available?
No unfortunately. The topic has been discussed before (thread hiding around here somewhere) and that was one of the issues. A redesign would be necessary both because if obsolete parts and RoHS issues.
Plaz
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Is there a need for the old drivers etc.. to work as with the original boards?
Or could one write a new one relativly easily that would work with a new accelerator?
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People are actually paying more than 1000€ for the CyberstormPPC 233-060 cards. (I won't sell it even if people asked 3499€ for it) I guess if someone produced a a new Classic Amiga with a 060-50 and a fast G5 with an onboard 64mb rtg card and sold it for around 2000$, people would line up. A thousand sales guaranteed. (better yet, make Natami like this)
Then I would be pulling my hair for not selling my old A4000T for 2500$
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It's mainly a question of expensive multilayer boards, signal integrity, pain-in-the-ass-DDR memory interface, small components handling to make one ;)
Writing the software side is another..
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This is why I am rapidly losing interest in Amiga, either have a stock machine or emulate......no way would I pay £1000 for a 15 year old bit of kit that could stop working.
Greed of sellers and stupidity of buyers makes me question their sanity tbh
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Yes this question crops up now and again, and the consensus has always been it would not be viable, even if DCE released the schematics.
The only solution is a completely new PPC card built from the ground up, but when asked at Amiwest last year Jens Schönfeld dismissed the idea, so is unlikely to come from Individual computers. The only other small ray of hope I see, is if you listen to the speech Trevor Dickinson made at Amiwest this year, from 32 minutes into he mentions that three new hardware contracts have been signed with Varisys, so some wild speculation on my part, but at least one of these could *potentially* be a new PPC accelerator card aimed at classic Amiga's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PdywsoOPmI
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Yes this question crops up now and again, and the consensus has always been it would not be viable, even if DCE released the schematics.
The only solution is a completely new PPC card built from the ground up, but when asked at Amiwest last year Jens Schönfeld dismissed the idea, so is unlikely to come from Individual computers. The only other small ray of hope I see, is if you listen to the speech Trevor Dickinson made at Amiwest this year, from 32 minutes into he mentions that three new hardware contracts have been signed with Varisys, so some wild speculation on my part, but at least one of these could *potentially* be a new PPC accelerator card aimed at classic Amiga's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PdywsoOPmI
We don't really need PPC accelerators for Classic Amiga's. We need new classic Amiga's without the the limitations of the old ones. The old ones are failing day by day and you have to be tech savy to be able to keep one running properly.
I'd want to be able to have a similar speed with a Pentium4 running at 3ghz. I'd want the CPU to be a newly produced - still produced CPU.
I wouldn't care that much if the Amiga needed to emulate 68k.
I'd want to be be able to use "current" industry standards. I mean I don't want to look for ddr2 rams when everybody sells ddr3 rams today. I don't want to look for sata harddrives while ssd on a pci-express is going to become a standard in a year or two. I don't want to look for old ATI cards when I can buy ati 48xx, 58xx and 68xx cards easily today.
This machine should be comparable to PCs of 2005 yet priced around good PC's that are being produced today. 2000$ should be the maximum price without monitor and they should also have a slower version with a 999$ price.
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It's amazing what Amiga Hardware brings now. A 10 year old peecee is worth less than a 25 year old amiga. What bothers me about Amiga hardware now is that something like the Raspberry Pi can be had for $25 with 1080p video out and USB2 and ethernet and 128 MB of ram. All that on a motherboard the size of a credit card. Then you look at a 20 year old 030 accelerator selling for some ungodly sum of money and just shake your head.
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Maybe DCE is producing them and slowly putting them on eBay :)
"Then you look at a 20 year old 030 accelerator selling for some ungodly sum of money and just shake your head."
LOL My thoughts exactly.
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Surely, with the outrageus prices the CSPPC cards go for these days, one ought to think there would be some business in the PPC for classic market. I like the idea with an FPGA based board. How about N050/N070 on that?
This has come up on the Natami forums before. Due to the cost of the FPGA (they are not cheap) you may as well buy a Natami and have done with it, that way you get all the advantages that Natami offers too.
As for those saying "I'm loosing interest as due to the huge cash required for accelerators etc. it's either a stock machine or emulation", don't give up hope yet. An A1200 with 030, SD card and USB isn't that expensive and will run most Amiga software very well, Natami shouldn't be long now either. If you need OS4, buy a SAM or wait for the OS4 netbook. That's before you even get on to using MOS or AROS.
It's only the 040+ and classic PPC market that costs stupid cash, and OK, so SAMS and the X1000 ain't cheap, but as I've said, the netbook is on it's way for OS4 (or hunt down a PEG maybe).
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Regarding the Notebook for AOS4.1 it seems that it won't have AltiVec so I lost interest on it. An old Powerbook is better IMHO.
I agree with some of the comments that we don't need PPC cards for Classics, but the thing is there is demand. I sure wouldn't mind having one;)
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We don't really need PPC accelerators for Classic Amiga's. We need new classic Amiga's without the the limitations of the old ones. The old ones are failing day by day and you have to be tech savy to be able to keep one running properly.
I'd want to be able to have a similar speed with a Pentium4 running at 3ghz. I'd want the CPU to be a newly produced - still produced CPU.
I wouldn't care that much if the Amiga needed to emulate 68k.
I'd want to be be able to use "current" industry standards. I mean I don't want to look for ddr2 rams when everybody sells ddr3 rams today. I don't want to look for sata harddrives while ssd on a pci-express is going to become a standard in a year or two. I don't want to look for old ATI cards when I can buy ati 48xx, 58xx and 68xx cards easily today.
This machine should be comparable to PCs of 2005 yet priced around good PC's that are being produced today. 2000$ should be the maximum price without monitor and they should also have a slower version with a 999$ price.
If OS4/MOS was ported to X86 your needs would be covered then. We are Amiga not Mac lovers and Amiga means superior to Windows X86 box AND costs less. Unless they achieve the price/performance of Xbox 360 motherboard as in late 2006 then they shouldn't bother making any hardware.....just port an OS4 version to x86 because it makes no sense as real Amiga production died with the A4000 and A1200. FACT.
A 3.4ghz P4 PC sells for 50 bucks so why would I buy some random non X86 machine for 1000s which would be as good as a used PC costing 50 bucks?. My problem is
1. I don't like Linux/Windows/OS X....there is nothing wrong with the current hardware.
2. I don't like overpriced underpowered PPC crap with nothing to do with the light years ahead of their time Amiga 1000 chipset designers to run OS4 just to avoid the above 3 OS
IF C=USA just sold cases AND wrote a decent OS from scratch for their chosen x86 spec then fair enough. But their cases are 300% overpriced and their blue/light blue colour themed Linux OS is more a joke than a new choice. There's already a Wb1.3 and Wb3.0 GUI skin for Linux and it's FREE derrrrr.
Or perhaps a 604 PPC core emulator to run OS4 inside WINUAE at BlizzardPPC/CyberstormPPC 233mhz levels that works too.
There will never be a true Amiga hardware replacement that is value for money, best you can hope for is a new OS.
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I can see some investors !
But I need to know how much money needs to start.
I was thinking to use this new PPC cards in the Natami Project.
I´m trying to build the Natami "Box Case" but its so hard to contact the Natami Team.
I can help in this PPC Project.
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I´m trying to build the Natami "Box Case" but its so hard to contact the Natami Team.
You could try a PM to Samuraicrow, he's an A.org member as well as a Natami team member.
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If OS4/MOS was ported to X86 your needs would be covered then. We are Amiga not Mac lovers and Amiga means superior to Windows X86 box AND costs less. Unless they achieve the price/performance of Xbox 360 motherboard as in late 2006 then they shouldn't bother making any hardware.....just port an OS4 version to x86 because it makes no sense as real Amiga production died with the A4000 and A1200. FACT.
You have an interesting definition of "fact." It seems to be approximately coincident with "opinion."
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If OS4/MOS was ported to X86 your needs would be covered then. We are Amiga not Mac lovers and Amiga means superior to Windows X86 box AND costs less. Unless they achieve the price/performance of Xbox 360 motherboard as in late 2006 then they shouldn't bother making any hardware.....just port an OS4 version to x86 because it makes no sense as real Amiga production died with the A4000 and A1200. FACT.
A 3.4ghz P4 PC sells for 50 bucks so why would I buy some random non X86 machine for 1000s which would be as good as a used PC costing 50 bucks?. My problem is
1. I don't like Linux/Windows/OS X....there is nothing wrong with the current hardware.
2. I don't like overpriced underpowered PPC crap with nothing to do with the light years ahead of their time Amiga 1000 chipset designers to run OS4 just to avoid the above 3 OS
IF C=USA just sold cases AND wrote a decent OS from scratch for their chosen x86 spec then fair enough. But their cases are 300% overpriced and their blue/light blue colour themed Linux OS is more a joke than a new choice. There's already a Wb1.3 and Wb3.0 GUI skin for Linux and it's FREE derrrrr.
Or perhaps a 604 PPC core emulator to run OS4 inside WINUAE at BlizzardPPC/CyberstormPPC 233mhz levels that works too.
There will never be a true Amiga hardware replacement that is value for money, best you can hope for is a new OS.
I see your point, but I don't agree completely. Hardware needs up to OS3.9 are pretty well covered IMHO. With Natami on the way, Minimig, Chameleon 64 etc. we have plenty of choice. Of course, AROS, UAE and MOS add even more options.
Amiga better than X86 and costing less? Better yes but lets not forget that an A1000 with monitor cost about $1600 when the average PC with monitor came in at $1200 (circa 1985).
As for nothing wrong with X86 hardware, well I assure you that's not an opinion everyone shares. However, as I say, I do see your point that OS-only is financially the easiest way forward. I however have always seen the Amiga as a combination of hardware and software and I look forward to Natami for this very reason.
PPC emulation in UAE would be very nice for some but isn't for me, I'm not an emulation fan .
The real crux of the whole issue of course comes down to the hardware/software loop. Is it worth making hardware without the software that needs it? Of course it is, but what software is that when you need the hardware to write it for in the first place? The truth is that they drive each other and we need both.
A PS3 with extra RAM and OS4 would be a good start but that's just dreaming.
As for CUSA, I think I'll keep quiet before I upset someone, they'll crash and burn soon enough anyway. :D
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Personally, I just upgraded my X86 PC with a Phenom II X4 processor and a Radeon 4650 video card. It has its uses, but I still prefer my Powermac with MorphOS.
And I looked very carefully at cloning the Cyberstorm PPC card (and it ain't possible).
I don't really want an Amigoid OS on an X86.
Now an ARM system...
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What ever happened to the sharkppc?
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What ever happened to the sharkppc?
The supply of Sonnet PPC cards ran dry ;)
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What ever happened to the sharkppc?
SHAAAARK!
___\0/______
It's due out anytime now. *
*The above comment is not in any way true.
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The supply of Sonnet PPC cards ran dry ;)
Yeah, the Dragon ate them....
...Yeah, I know.... What Dragon?
The one that lives with the sharks, of course.
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@Iggy, What makes Morph/AmigaOS so good over any Unix OS?
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@Iggy, What makes Morph/AmigaOS so good over any Unix OS?
:)
I think they are Amiga users' favorite operating systems. It's easy to use them on Amiga hardware. We are used to them.
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@Iggy, What makes Morph/AmigaOS so good over any Unix OS?
MorphOS/AmigaOS is not better/worse than soem random Unis (like) OS. It's different. I surely wouldn't run a huge server farm on Amiga/MorphOS. But my attemps to use Linux for my personal computers were all disapointing. I don't like the usual Linux setups (tried it several times since the millenium started), and don't want to mess with them until they are adjused to be acceptable to me.
Same holds true for the popular incarnation of BSD. It's boring to me. I just don't follow the way Apple assumes users should organise a computer. Amiga/MorphOS has it's pros as it has its cons. It's mostly a matter of taste. And my peference list has MorphOS(Amiga/AROS) on top. Most other ppl have other OSes on top.
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@Iggy, What makes Morph/AmigaOS so good over any Unix OS?
Well, I can't speak for MorphOS, but as someone who just wasted a hell of a lot of time trying to get into Linux for personal use (about which I wrote a long rant in my blog,) I'd have to say that it's just plain not a good desktop-computing OS. Obviously the Unix model is very good for server environments, and probably certain kinds of workstation setups. And the underlying technology has been used quite successfully to build OSes for phones and other devices.
But not to beat around the bush, it's just a giant pain in the ass, or series of pains in the ass. Installation/upgrade is painless, except when it isn't, and then it's agony just to get things back to working the way they were, the underlying structure is such a labyrinth of cryptically-named files that depend on other cryptically-named files in ways that are never consistent across distributions and nobody ever documents, the UI is schizophrenic unless you're using one of the "giant integrated suite" desktop environments like GNOME or KDE, and even then it's not very good, and in any case you still have software like the GIMP that is just utterly unusable. And the culture is such that any issue you have gets you a few responses of "I feel your pain, but I don't have the capability to fix this either," accompanied by a bunch of people smarming about "well, this is The Linux Way, and if you don't like it, write your own software, because clearly you as a would-be end-user have the time, inclination, and ability to do that."
The question isn't what makes AmigaOS/MorphOS/Haiku/Kolibri/whatever better than Unix. The question is, from a user's standpoint, what could make it worse?
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No deterministic reason?
Personally I prefer FreeBSD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeBSD), I find Linux messy.
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I would agree with CommodoreJohn that Linux can be a difficult OS to adapt to.
AmigaOS and its offshoots are compact and relatively simple.
I having Linux installed on several systems, but I still get more use (and utility) out of MorphOS, OSX and Windows.
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The question isn't what makes AmigaOS/MorphOS/Haiku/Kolibri/whatever better than Unix. The question is, from a user's standpoint, what could make it worse?
Unix isn't for everyone; that is a mistake the "Linux on the Desktop" crowd always make.
Some users are just plain stupid and they'll never leave their comfort zone and learn something new. It is very arrogant of the Linux distributors to think people will change to suit the distro.
As for what makes AmigaOS/... better? Obviously its the ability to run it on expensive, outdated hardware, running with the best apps that were available 20 years ago.
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This has come up on the Natami forums before. Due to the cost of the FPGA (they are not cheap) you may as well buy a Natami and have done with it, that way you get all the advantages that Natami offers too.
I wonder what the cost would be. I'm pretty sure the classic user base could present an instant market for such hardware. Cash in to the Natami project as well. Then again, I'm not a business analyst...
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Some users are just plain stupid and they'll never leave their comfort zone and learn something new. It is very arrogant of the Linux distributors to think people will change to suit the distro.
I'm willing to go out of my comfort zone, really I am; I've been trying for seven years now to get into it. But a lot of this **** is just plain bad user interface design, and it seems like hardly any developers realize that, or listen to the users who are saying as much.
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I'm willing to go out of my comfort zone, really I am; I've been trying for seven years now to get into it. But a lot of this **** is just plain bad user interface design, and it seems like hardly any developers realize that, or listen to the users who are saying as much.
I like Linux for the GNU. I love OSX as well, but all I have to run it on is an older macbook. For me its all about the tools. MS for gaming and (with win7) stability (I'm dead serious) and certain things needed for school/work, linux/osx for work, especially any networking/etc or work easily done by terminal. Plus, I hate putty.
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Maybe DCE is producing them and slowly putting them on eBay :)
"Then you look at a 20 year old 030 accelerator selling for some ungodly sum of money and just shake your head."
LOL My thoughts exactly.
I think it's a great idea, we should start with a free scheme open to all contributions and then see if it is economically sustainable. Let's try these chinese manufacturers...
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We need new classic Amiga's without the the limitations of the old ones. The old ones are failing day by day and you have to be tech savy to be able to keep one running properly.
That's exactly what we wanted to do as a pet project back then at AHT Europe seven years ago, e.g. as a replacement board for those still using Amigas for Video work and broadcasting at that time.
Some back then regular here (don't know if his project ever became public knowledge, thus I'm not mentioning his name) did previously work on an ATX redesign of the A4000 and we wanted him to finalize it, integrating the Prometheus into it (which had been the reason I did buy the rights, the AmiVD was just a by-product). Next step would have been PPC-integration on base of this A4000 ATX design.
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@Senex
That's interesting but how far did it go ? All these projects that happened along the years that didn't come to fruition would have all benefited from some cooperation.
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@Senex
That's interesting but how far did it go?
He had two protoypes of his ATX redesign (PCB only), said to be done years before already - although I have to state that I've never seen them myself. We wanted to show one of the boards at our booth at the CeBIT fair, were we presented the Ariana STB, but he didn't send it. A week before CeBIT started, he wrote about the board: "I'm waiting to get it from the etcher. If it's not ready by wednesday, I fall onto plan B, a full sized printout of the top mask." Since during CeBIT I finally decided to quit, that's been the last thing I heard about that project.
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integrating the Prometheus into it (which had been the reason I did buy the rights
Ha, so this was why AHT bought the rights from Matay... :-)