Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: mechy on November 10, 2011, 03:38:18 PM
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Just reprogrammed the eproms on a few different pci USB cards last night with the NEC chipsets. Thanks goes out to the guy who posted about how to do this.
My process goes something like this- Desolder the eprom,stick it in a soic adapter and that goes into my eprom burner,load some edited eprom code, shoot it to the eprom,remove it,solder it back on the board.Nothing too hard just takes time.
Seem to work fine in my A4000 with 5v Mediator. i did a 3 port and 5 port.Tested keyboards,memsticks,transcend card reader,some windows usb cam(unrecognized)and the sony camera.
The green usb card has a 3.3/5v jumper onboard(seems to run in either position in my 5v mediator with no bad effects). the black card has no voltage jumper.I tested these about 1 hour.
all ports seem to work fine. This was under workbench 3.9 with poseidon 4.4 (thanks chris!) ,spider.device v3.21.My config is csppc,radeon,sb128,100Mbit ethernet.
If anyone who doesn't have the capability to do these themselves needs one i can probabaly offer the 5 port for $15-20 ready to go if anyone is interested but alot of you can do it cheaper i'm sure.I haven't tried these in the newer 1200 3.3v mediators,but no reason for them not to work work.
Don't be surprised if elbox pulls some change in the next drivers update though.
-Mech-
EDIT:
Mediator Driver install: -how i did it-
BACKUP YOUR INSTALL FIRST! you have been warned.
Simply make a drawer called usbhardware in devs: if you don't have this from a previous mediator install.
Copy the spider.device to the above drawer - it must be 3.21 (using anything earlier might have bad effects!?!?!)
Get Poseidon 4.4 (thank chris and your lucky stars for this-maybe buy him something on his wish list).
install Poseidon 4.4 as normal,but don't select ANY of the hardware driver devices(no deneb,no subway etc -deselect all)
go thru the rest of poseidon as normal installing classes and such.
Reboot
Start trident (it should be in sys:Prefs) and goto the "devices" window (it will be empty)
open a cli and enter:
AddUSBHardware Devs:USBHardware/spider.device 2
AddUSBHardware Devs:USBHardware/spider.device 0
AddUSBHardware Devs:USBHardware/spider.device 1
you should see stuff pop up in the trident devices window as you enter and hit return on each of the above in cli.
hit the save at the bottom of the trident window and you should be ready to go!
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more pix...
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and the 5 port board:
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Good work. Yeah elbox bound to release updated drivers that screw with this somehow.
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Veeerrrry Interesting... Some good work there mechy, well done! If I still used my A1200 I'd grab one of them in a shot!
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Hi Mechy,
I'm certainly interested in a card for my A4000's Mediator. PM me a price (and make sure it reflects the amount of hard work you've done) and I'll place an order.
I told AmigaKit that I wanted a Spider from them months ago and heard nothing since, so I'll happily take you up on this offer and then I can put my Deneb in my A2000.
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Brilliant.
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Finally someone bothered to try this. :-) Great!
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What does this do? Correct for a bug in a driver, or ???
Is this Amiga/Mediator specific, or for any platform? Does it break the card for any platforms?
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What does this do? Correct for a bug in a driver, or ???
Is this Amiga/Mediator specific, or for any platform? Does it break the card for any platforms?
The story goes basically like this: elbox took a $5 usb card with nec chipset,modified the eprom on it to have their vendor id,and then coded the driver to not work with a cheap card so they could gouge the amiga ppl $90 for a $5 card.
this hack changes the generic cheap NEC card's eprom to their vendor id so it works with the Mediator.
this is a PCI card and can only be used in the mediator. i have no idea if this works in anything other than the amiga/mediator.
mech
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Great :-)
So finally elbox PCI bus works as every PCI bus should - working with ALL (USB) PCI cards regardless of "manufacturer" - after all, it's probably just a single number (manufacturer ID) (well, it's pretty obvious Elbox didn't manufacture those USB boards...)
So how long until Elbox comes up with an "important security fix for all Mediator users"? :-D
Sure, they might not be able to "prevent everything", but the first post proves, they aren't f.ex. checking for "correct" amount of USB ports (whatever happened to be on those they bought to resell at huge profit). There are likely LOTS of similar things the driver can check, but didn't yet, as there was no need to (as this kind of hacks weren't at least too public until now)
-EDIT-
I'm not a Mediator owner myself, but feel happy for all Mediator users, who finally can use USB card from ANY manufacturer (as long as the drivers are compatible), just like PCI was meant to be.
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Great :-)
So finally elbox PCI bus works as every PCI bus should - working with ALL (USB) PCI cards regardless of "manufacturer" - after all, it's probably just a single number (manufacturer ID) (well, it's pretty obvious Elbox didn't manufacture those USB boards...)
So how long until Elbox comes up with an "important security fix for all Mediator users"? :-D
Sure, they might not be able to "prevent everything", but the first post proves, they aren't f.ex. checking for "correct" amount of USB ports (whatever happened to be on those they bought to resell at huge profit). There are likely LOTS of similar things the driver can check, but didn't yet, as there was no need to (as this kind of hacks weren't at least too public until now)
-EDIT-
I'm not a Mediator owner myself, but feel happy for all Mediator users, who finally can use USB card from ANY manufacturer (as long as the drivers are compatible), just like PCI was meant to be.
I wouldn't say all cards work, i stuck with the NEC chipset cards.. I would doubt it would work with other usb cards without the nec chipset but feel free to prove me wrong :razz: .
There is no way to be sure on this stuff, they could change a driver and break it. In theory if you stick with poseidon 4.4 and don't upgrade to anything new they put out it should keep working indefinately.
We should of had access to these cheap cards from day one.
mech
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I think that Elbox need to change the way they now market the Mediator. Instead of making money off the PCI cards, they should concentrate on just selling the Mediator bus boards.
When you consider the cost of adding a Zorro RTG card to a big box Amiga, a USB solution (either Zorro or clockport) and a better sound card, if you know that you can buy a Mediator from $285 upwards and that you can plug in your own dust-covered ViRGE graphics card, a $5 USB card and a salvaged SB128 card then it more than pays for itself.
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Cheap hardware for the Amiga masses?! Surely you jest! It's a tradition to gouge Amigans.. Common sense and decency be damned.....we have traditions to uphold! :-)
If you don't believe me, just ask Hyperion and A-Eon!
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I understand funding the driver development, but ouch, $70 markup for 9 years is not cool. And if you have two mediators? You paid $140 for drivers! That's more than most whole OS's.
Good hack job mech!
Edit: I forgot, we're still paying for Mediator CD's on top of that...Isn't THAT supposed to be funding driver development? Yeah, I have NO problems with this little trick. Bravo.
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WANT! Do you ship to the Netherlands :)
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I understand funding the driver development, but ouch, $70 markup for 9 years is not cool. And if you have two mediators? You paid $140 for drivers! That's more than most whole OS's.
Good hack job mech!
Edit: I forgot, we're still paying for Mediator CD's on top of that...Isn't THAT supposed to be funding driver development? Yeah, I have NO problems with this little trick. Bravo.
Thanks, i am not the originator of this hack,but its a good one! i have 20 cards coming the beginning of the week and i will mod them and stick them on the shopping cart.
I didn't really do any of this to stab elbox in the eye or anything,because the mediator is damned fine hardware(even if it doesn't do proper DMA),i mean mines been running for 10 years 24/7 i think now.They have stood the test of time. But the thing with the spider was wrong and advertising stuff that is not for sale etc.. I still want the mpeg card drivers! thats one thing i was really looking forward to.
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Thanks, i am not the originator of this hack,but its a good one! i have 20 cards coming the beginning of the week and i will mod them and stick them on the shopping cart.
I didn't really do any of this to stab elbox in the eye or anything,because the mediator is damned fine hardware(even if it doesn't do proper DMA),i mean mines been running for 10 years 24/7 i think now.They have stood the test of time. But the thing with the spider was wrong and advertising stuff that is not for sale etc.. I still want the mpeg card drivers! thats one thing i was really looking forward to.
Yep, I agree that the Mediator is a fine piece of kit. I have the A4000D version for an A4000 destop in a tower case and it has more PCI slots and Zorro slots than you can shake a stick at. I have a FastATA4000 and Deneb in the Zorro slots (and a Emplant II than needs to be installed), and a Radeon 256MB card (which also provides an extra 192MB of RAM) and a Soundblaster 128 in the PCI slots (want to add my PCI Catweasle too).
Even if you have a desktop A3000 and A4000 in original cases then there are smaller models for them.
If you want a proper graphics card in an A1200 thenthis is one of the few solutions and the only one you can actually buy.
It isn't cheap, but it is worth the money.
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I do love my Mediator 1200 (though it sees little action recently). I was thinking though - if all Elbox did was change the vendor ID, and with this hack the same card is now "spoofing" as an Elbox card, surely there can't be a way to write a driver that will stop them working since they appear identical from a software perspective? Unless there's some other field which they modified as well...
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I do love my Mediator 1200 (though it sees little action recently). I was thinking though - if all Elbox did was change the vendor ID, and with this hack the same card is now "spoofing" as an Elbox card, surely there can't be a way to write a driver that will stop them working since they appear identical from a software perspective? Unless there's some other field which they modified as well...
In theory your right, if they do change the driver,it breaks their own cards.. but there may be other places in the nec rom to check and do something. They know the hardware in and out so you never can tell be sure.they are probabaly analyzing it bit for bit now to find a way to cripple it ;)
keeping spider.device 3.21 is the best thing to do.
LOL
Mech
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@darrin
You can use video ram of graphic card as system ram?. How is it done?
Didn't know it was possible.
Thanks!!!
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Extremely cool news and kudos on the hard and good work - a lot of people will benefit from this.
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I do not own a Mediator anymore, but I hope that this will help existing users get USB2 working on their Mediator enhanced setups, in a little more cost effective way. :)
Great work.
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@darrin
You can use video ram of graphic card as system ram?. How is it done?
Didn't know it was possible.
Thanks!!!
Oh, it can be done OK, because I'm doing it. :-)
You need one of the Radeon cards with lots of RAM and the latest Mediator Radeon drivers. You decide how much RAM you wish to reserve for graphics and data (by changing a value in a text file) and the rest is allocated as system RAM. It effectively treats your graphic card's spare RAM like it was a Zorro based RAM Card. It is nowhere near as fast as RAM on a CPU card, but it is there to be used by the software.
When you consider a 256MB RorRAM card is $195 then suddenly a Mediator board with a Radeon card looks like a very good purchase.
Here's an old screen grab from my A4000 Workbench:
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b134/darrin01311/grab2.jpg
If you look at the top and bottom left you'll see the memory displayed in the title bar and on Tiny Meter. That's the RAM left after displaying a 1920x1080 desktop with a bloody big wallpaper, various tools & add-on. 16MB Fast RAM & 2MB Chip RAM is on the mobo, 64MB is on the CPU card and the rest comes from the Radeon.
(Ignore the date on Tiny Meter... I've removed the battery and never replaced it)
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@mechy
You might want to check your LDO too, depending on the cards you use.
Finally someone understood my signature.
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@mechy
You might want to check your LDO too, depending on the cards you use.
Finally someone understood my signature.
I ran all these cards for a good while with the ports loaded(1hr+). the 3 port card has a ldo regulator and a jumper for 3.3/5v i ran the card at 5v on the 3.3 setting(torture testing),it makes me think the chipsets are 5v tolerant,because i saw no i'll effects.The 5 port card has no regulator to speak of but it too ran flawless for over a hour loaded.My mediator does not have a 3.3v hack.
the 2- 5 port cards i have are going to friends for stress testing,and i won't have more till the beginning of the week. by then multiple people have tested them and if theres a problem to be found it should surface. but i am confident they work well.
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From wiki-take it for what its worth:
Card voltage and keying
(http://bits.wikimedia.org/skins-1.18/common/images/magnify-clip.png) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Intelpromtserverpcixadapter1000mta342.jpg)
Typical PCI cards have either one or two key notches, depending on their signaling voltage. Cards requiring 3.3 volts have a notch 56.21 mm from the card backplate; those requiring 5 volts have a notch 104.47 mm from the backplate. "Universal cards" accepting either voltage have both key notches. This allows cards to be fitted only into slots with a voltage they support.
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the cards i'm using have both notches,so i believe them to be universal.
mech
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Fantastic work! let me know where to send my money!
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I want one! :-) i have never been able to justify the price of the spider with how much i would use it. But for this price it's okey
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Yeah, I have NO problems with this little trick. Bravo.
The only thing to watch out for is that this probably breaks the DMCA in America and EUCD in every country in the European Union. It may also fall foul of local reverse engineering laws.
It will also affect your contract with Elbox for running the software.
I'm not a lawyer or the police.
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Hello All,
I really wish I knew about this hack before I bought one of those expensive Spider Cards from ElBox. Well done, shame on you ElBox!
Thanks in advance,
Merv Stent
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Isnt it easier to modify the driver?
The mediator-pci-api has only one function to read the vendorid.
Remove it .. the code itself must snoop for a classid.
This part of the code should work without vendorid-check.
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Isnt it easier to modify the driver?
The mediator-pci-api has only one function to read the vendorid.
Remove it .. the code itself must snoop for a classid.
This part of the code should work without vendorid-check.
That's assuming it wasn't "protected" in any way. Some years back, doing that would have nuked your RDB!
Nowadays that code is (claimed to be) removed from the binary - or at least any outsider hasn't found it yet.
Anyway, regardless of whether or not it's there, I'm pretty sure it still has some other protections againist 3rd party patches. Of course there are likely ways around them.
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I'm not a lawyer or the police.
if you were, you should go after elbox for their illegal activities!
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The only thing to watch out for is that this probably breaks the DMCA in America and EUCD in every country in the European Union. It may also fall foul of local reverse engineering laws.
It will also affect your contract with Elbox for running the software.
I'm not a lawyer or the police.
Well if that is true, isnt elbox guilty of this? i mean they are the ones who took a nec card and changed the vendor id to their own.
mech
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Brick vs. brick situation then, both will stay undamaged if no high-speed collision take place and cause a pile of ceramic pieces :swords:
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Well if that is true, isnt elbox guilty of this? i mean they are the ones who took a nec card and changed the vendor id to their own.
mech
They didn't do it for the purpose of circumventing the protection in the driver.
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They didn't do it for the purpose of circumventing the protection in the driver.
Yes but they seem to have made it to charge people for overpriced products.
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Yes but they seem to have made it to charge people for overpriced products.
Overpriced products aren't illegal.
Besides, the Spider is the cheapest USB adapter available for the Amiga.
http://shop.elbox.com/cgibin/shop?info=705S20
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They didn't do it for the purpose of circumventing the protection in the driver.
This hack on the hardware doesn't circumvent their driver, it complies with it.
elbox did not manufacture a usb card. they took a generic nec usb card, and changed the vendor id in it. this hack does the same thing.
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This hack on the hardware doesn't circumvent their driver, it complies with it.
Did I say it circumvents their driver? No. I said it circumvents the protection in the driver.
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Thanks for the tip. Will be of value when someday put the tower
again up and running.
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This is like 10 years late though.
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The story goes basically like this: elbox took a $5 usb card with nec chipset,modified the eprom on it to have their vendor id,and then coded the driver to not work with a cheap card so they could gouge the amiga ppl $90 for a $5 card.
this hack changes the generic cheap NEC card's eprom to their vendor id so it works with the Mediator.
this is a PCI card and can only be used in the mediator. i have no idea if this works in anything other than the amiga/mediator.
mech
Ah, I see. I assume this makes the USB card not work on PCs anymore.
I can understand the desire to recoup development expense of drivers. We considered how to make money on Radeon drivers once upon a time, including packaging with cards and maybe doing something in ROM. I would not have been happy with that much of a markup, even considering how pointlessly small the market is. In the end, someone bought me dinner and a Prometheus card, and that's what I got out of my small contribution. I wish I'd had more time to get things further than where that driver got. :/
But that is a big markup, and the main point of a PCI bus into our Amigas is to get those cheap PCI cards to do things with, rather than spending Amiga price money for Zorro cards. If the PCI card ends up as expensive as a Zorro equivalent, people begin wondering why bother with PCI. Too high a price compared to PC stuff invalidates the reason for PCI in Amigas. At the same time, no drivers also invalidates the reason to get PCI, so you need to motivate someone to make drivers.
It's a tough world. And in our Amiga portion of it, things can be frustrating for users and developers alike. I'm just happy someone tries.
I have a Mediator that I've never used. The whole lack of time problem has my A3000 desktop partway along to a tower case, but not far enough to use it. Been that way for a few years now. :( So I don't have experience with driver situation yet. I wish I had someplace to work on stuff and use Amigas...
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Ah, I see. I assume this makes the USB card not work on PCs anymore.
No, it will work in a pc too. I had no problems in pci 2.2
Readout from using finalwire, ebay usb on the left - elbox usb on the right.
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I ran all these cards for a good while with the ports loaded(1hr+). the 3 port card has a ldo regulator and a jumper for 3.3/5v i ran the card at 5v on the 3.3 setting(torture testing),it makes me think the chipsets are 5v tolerant,because i saw no i'll effects.The 5 port card has no regulator to speak of but it too ran flawless for over a hour loaded.My mediator does not have a 3.3v hack.
the 2- 5 port cards i have are going to friends for stress testing,and i won't have more till the beginning of the week. by then multiple people have tested them and if theres a problem to be found it should surface. but i am confident they work well.
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From wiki-take it for what its worth:
Card voltage and keying
(http://bits.wikimedia.org/skins-1.18/common/images/magnify-clip.png) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Intelpromtserverpcixadapter1000mta342.jpg)
Typical PCI cards have either one or two key notches, depending on their signaling voltage. Cards requiring 3.3 volts have a notch 56.21 mm from the card backplate; those requiring 5 volts have a notch 104.47 mm from the backplate. "Universal cards" accepting either voltage have both key notches. This allows cards to be fitted only into slots with a voltage they support.
-----------------------------------------------
the cards i'm using have both notches,so i believe them to be universal.
mech
The nec 720101 has 3.3 V power supply, PCI signal pins have 5 V tolerant circuit.
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It has started: Elbox removed spider.device from their webpages
http://www.elbox.com/downloads_mediator.html
So it can only be obtained on the Spider CD when you buy the "Spider" USB card...
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It has started: Elbox removed spider.device from their webpages
http://www.elbox.com/downloads_mediator.html
So it can only be obtained on the Spider CD when you buy the "Spider" USB card...
Too late!
Spider hack is in the air!
Once more they show their right face!
Dragon's & Shark's :)
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It has started: Elbox removed spider.device from their webpages
http://www.elbox.com/downloads_mediator.html
So it can only be obtained on the Spider CD when you buy the "Spider" USB card...
I'll quite gladly host it for download on CommodoreAmiga.ir if someone sends me the file.
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I don't have an EPROM programmer, so when I need to program those EPROMS, I solder one onto a PCI ATI Radeon, use a flashrom program booted from MS-DOS, write what I need, desolder and put where it belongs. An old ATI Radeon can be had for next to nothing.
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Nice! But wouldn't it be possible to hexedit the driver to support cards with other device numbers instead? Or is it encrypted or something?
EDIT: just noticed that someone already asked this.
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Belkin F5U220 (REV 6 works,REV3 does not)
Did the eprom hack on 2 of the belkins, one was a revision 3(which didnt work for me) and the other is revision 6 which worked fine
they both use the same D720101GJ chipset but the differences are
rev3: L1085D voltage regulator,48Mhz 4 pin square oscillator and a few more caps.
rev6: MT1117 voltage regulator and a 2 pin 30mhz crystal.
some misc resistors and capacitors different between the two.
the rev 6 seems to work flawless. The rev 3 caused crashes and reboots any time i plugged anything in. I don't know if its a simple voltage regulator difference or the differences in the cards clocking etc.The color of the cards are actually barely a shade of blue difference- My camera flash made them look drastically different.
Here are some pictures:
DSC00057.jpg (http://www.amiga.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1756&stc=1&d=1321489270)
DSC00059.jpg (http://www.amiga.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1757&stc=1&d=1321489284)
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Count me in for one of these! I have had a Mediator for almost as long as I've had my Amiga 4000D. I also have a 256mb Radeon that I'm using the memory out of, though I think for some reason the Amiga sees it as two banks of memory (one for each head?) since it's only ever seeing 128mb of ram.
I kept debating whether or not to get a Deneb, but now I'm hearing they're sold out everywhere.
Now what devices work through USB for the Amiga? Is the bus fast enough to handle USB2 speeds? Otherwise, can I plug in a USB2 flash stick and back up my Amiga to it?
If so, I would love one. Would be nice for mouse / keyboard support, though I have both for the Amiga (though I really miss the mouse wheel...)
Rock on to all who managed to get this working!
slaapliedje
P.S. I also could probably host the file, though I'm wondering if Elbox will start going after people. I figure I've given them enough money, buying both the Mediator and a Radeon directly from them, which ended up being a 64mb card, so I ended up finding another Radeon card that supported the 5v.) I bought three Radeon cards for this thing! Two work, though I still get weird Ramlib errors...
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download the poseidon archive at http://www.platon42.de/poseidon.html
Should give you a idea of what works. most common stuff works.
USB works pretty well on amiga. i've been using it a long time.
Its too bad the deneb is out of production.
You should know that some usb devices won't be available at boot time since the spider cards have no flashmem to store the usb stack. You can do this on the deneb though.
Mech
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***
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It has started: Elbox removed spider.device from their webpages
http://www.elbox.com/downloads_mediator.html
So it can only be obtained on the Spider CD when you buy the "Spider" USB card...
I went googling and found it and
it works great with the card i got from mech
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Seems to be back on Elbox's website, in the MM_CD_UP2.1 archive.
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Seems to be back on Elbox's website, in the MM_CD_UP2.1 archive.
It says it is in the archive but it is not. I went through the whole thing twice and there is no spider.device anywhere to be found.
I don't understand why Elbox decided to single out the USB component of their Mediator board. Every other PCI card for it is freely available from a third party.
On top of all this, the past licencing issues of Poseidon, the "Kill Workbench" code to keep out other USB cards, etc. etc. etc. seems to be such a waste of money and time and only drive their reputation into the ground.
Can you imagine what people would think of Elbox now if they had just released drivers for generic USB cards instead? I'm sure they would be held in a MUCH higher regard, close to that of Individual Computers or E3b.
This whole thing is just being dragged on and on. C'mon Elbox, let it go, for everyone's sake...
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The most messed up thing about that? If you pay attention to the dates on the 2.1 update, the only driver that was updated is the spider.device!!
And that's the one that's missing?
It claims it should be in Devs:USBHardware. Which is funny, since that folder is missing, but the USBHardware.info is still there...
So the MM_CD_UP2.1.lha is absolutely useless now.
slaapliedje
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MORE USB CARDS UP FOR SALE: $20 shipped in the USA,$25 Overseas.
I have made up 18 more of these usb cards that works with spider.device 3.21. if anyone wants one PM me.
going cheap!
@slaapliedje (http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=8255) Yes they just edited the archive,changed the installer so it now does not install the spider.device and its not included of course.. so ridiculous.:crazy:
mech
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If that doesn't show their true colors, I don't know what does.
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Well this time i can understand Elbox.
They have been kind enough to make a new device compatible with Poseidon 4.4, after Chris Hodges has been himself very kind to reveal to Amiga.org audience that the stack was not limited anymore toward Elbox, and now they think they won't ever sell again a Spider.
This is a cool and clever hack nonetheless, but perhaps we should avoid to sell them.
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If that doesn't show their true colors, I don't know what does.
Why? Because they don't like being ripped off?
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Why? Because they don't like being ripped off?
They aren't being ripped off. i am just playing their game,except releasing the cards for a price they should cost.They simply don't like getting their own medicine back.
they have ripped amiga users off since the spider was released.
for the record i like the mediator,even if it does not do DMA it does work and is reliable.
Do you forget the years they sold spider cards with no available updated stack?
The overpriced piece of s*** excuse for a $30 chinese mediator pro tower for a4000 they sold me which cost a fortune and the rip off NEC usb card are a different story. bad business is bad business.Its things like this that drive amiga users away.
The whole point of the mediator was cheap pci cards was it not?
mech
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They aren't being ripped off. i am just playing their game,except releasing the cards for a price they should cost.They simply don't like getting their own medicine back.
Did you pay for the driver development cost? Do you offer support? Do you handle warranty repairs? Do you have a business with employees to pay?
What do you think the price they should cost is? $20? Should Elbox be operating a charity?
Why do people complain about a $70 markup on the Spider, but have no problem with the Subway selling for $120? Or $200 for the DENEB? How much do you think they cost to make?
they have ripped amiga users off since the spider was released.
for the record i like the mediator,even if it does not do DMA it does work and is reliable.
Do you forget the years they sold spider cards with no available updated stack?
Nobody was forcing anyone to buy them. If the card didn't work as advertised, then people should return them for a refund.
The overpriced piece of s*** excuse for a $30 chinese mediator pro tower for a4000 they sold me which cost a fortune
What? Overpriced Amiga hardware? What an outrage!
and the rip off NEC usb card are a different story. bad business is bad business.Its things like this that drive amiga users away.
Driving developers away doesn't attract users.
The whole point of the mediator was cheap pci cards was it not?
mech
Feel free to write your own drivers, and charge whatever you want for them or give them away for free.
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Elbox has not been ethically correct since ancient times:
1.They developed a gfx card, used Picasso96 SDK & driver system and refused to pay them royalties. (All mediator gfx card drivers for Picasso96)
2.They added code that could trash your hdd without gviving the user a warning about it. (On some old spider.device)
3.They ilegally used software that was not licensed (Poseidon USB)
4.They sold many products without any usable drivers (Spider USB cards didnt have proper usb support untill now)
5.They sold products on features they never had (Mediator support for SharkPPC)
And the list could go on...
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Elbox has not been ethically correct since ancient times
And?
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And so who is ripping off who?
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And so who is ripping off who?
mechy is ripping off Elbox.
Wasn't I clear on this?
Elbox could drown puppies and it wouldn't change that fact.
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Did you pay for the driver development cost? Do you offer support? Do you handle warranty repairs? Do you have a business with employees to pay?
Lets see here, some simple math. Elbox has been selling the overpriced spider cards for $91 for at least what?..10 years? we can safely assume they sold maybe 200 in that time.. so, 200 cards X $91 is approx $18200. hmm i'd say they made their dev cost back and then some and thats ONLY the spider.Even if its only 100 cards, that would be $9100. fair price for a driver? If anyone has trouble with my card,i will replace it free as long as i am alive.How can i do that you ask? Easy,the cost of the cards i put out start around $4-5.
Oh,and yes i have a business.
What do you think the price they should cost is? $20? Should Elbox be operating a charity?
They wouldn't be in this market if they couldn't make money now would they. Charging $91 for a usb card thats under $10 in even small quantity is certainly not charity.
Why do people complain about a $70 markup on the Spider, but have no problem with the Subway selling for $120? Or $200 for the DENEB? How much do you think they cost to make?
Who says we have no problem with it,the deneb probabaly was over priced(we don't know since we have no baseline on mfg cost. The subway/Deneb is custom hardware built in small quantity,not a generic off the shelf pci card which millions were made.
Don't you understand this?. On the other hand we know on the nec card..People bought the deneb because they were all that was available with a proper updated usb stack i suspect-and they too are a damn fine card. I guess you don't mind paying a 700% markup for a spider? if not then boy, do i have a deal on a bridge for you!.. normal markup is maybe 300% at most in business but thats not a hard fast rule..
Nobody was forcing anyone to buy them. If the card didn't work as advertised, then people should return them for a refund.
erm,yea sounds normal. Was there a point here?
What? Overpriced Amiga hardware? What an outrage!
More drivel ignored..
Driving developers away doesn't attract users.
I don't drive them anywhere,but always happy to if they need a lift somewhere. ;) Developers are driven away because the amiga people are split a half a dozen ways,so they don't want to gamble on any of the 6 tangents probabaly.
Feel free to write your own drivers, and charge whatever you want for them or give them away for free.
Golly gee, Having your permission makes it all worth while THANKS!:rofl:
Does the elbox lawyer have anymore questions or are you just a employee there?
Oh and if you need a usb card just let me know,it will cost you 91 though, i don't want to put you in a position that might make you feel you underpaid me since you prefer the 700% markup.
Mech
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Why do people complain about a $70 markup on the Spider, but have no problem with the Subway selling for $120? Or $200 for the DENEB? How much do you think they cost to make?
I would honestly propose that you start from scratch developping a completely new combination of hardware and software, like it was done with both SUBWAY and DENEB.
Take the DENEB card - do your own full development on Zorro II and III, get working support for Fast-Zorro II, implement all workarounds for broken Zorro III cards (including some Mediators, btw), fix and workaround unknown Buster bugs, write three independently used firmware images (Zorro II, Zorro III, rescue), get the chips needed for production (which is hard nowadays, as 5V technology dies slowly), handle all the production costs, the "Stiftung EAR" recycling administration (which is not for free, btw) and continue to provide support and firmware upgrades (for free, btw, compared to other companies) for years. And that's only the hardware point of view, there's still the whole software side which I didn't mention here, but which is also a huge part in the game (if not the bigger one).
How much do you think you will spend in time and money until you can deliver your first product?
Now compare that to some well-known PCI card solution. Hardware development: zero costs. You buy it in Far East for about 2USD per piece, completely assembled, completely tested, no additional work except labeling it with a nice sticker. No prototypes to be built and tested, no worrying about unknown chip features (aka bugs), no iterations on hardware. That's your hardware "development" costs per board. Period.
So all left is software driver development, which you can simply orientate on EHCI drivers on Linux, NetBSD, and other systems. You don't have to cope with "EHCI-like" structures as on the DENEB host controller chip (which is optimized for smaller CPUs), you don't have to worry about Zorro III DMA (as Mediators don't support this), and the only extra to work on is the little program to reprogram the EEPROM on the PCI card to contain the dongling bytes for your RDB-erasing driver (which, to be honest, also costs some extra time, for the encryption part of that malware feature, as well as the pseudo-random activation to hide your tracks).
EDIT: if you compare DENEB to Spider, please include into the comparision also the price for a FlashROM card (eFlash4000). This is already included in DENEB, leaving one Zorro slot free for other stuff...
BTW, without all the development efforts done in Poseidon (which first worked on SUBWAY cards) even Elbox couldn't have made any point in selling a rebranded PCI card.
Sorry for the open words, but I can't accept people talking about "costs" of projects which they never made on their own.
Michael
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No doubt that the Spider is absolutly no match for the Deneb and that the Deneb is worth every cent it costs. Make more of them! Adapt them for the A500 with a nice case for the side slot!
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Sorry for the open words, but I can't accept people talking about "costs" of projects which they never made on their own.
Michael
Dear Michael,
Besides that I'm fan of Deneb (have 2 of them) I can only second your sentence. I don't know why people having no clue about development, production and after sales support just LOVE to calculate how much hardware (or software) should cost for them.
They are even so ignorant to exclude distributor's mark-up from calculation assuming that distributors are hosting their offices, keeping employees, making advertisments and at the end selling the products as an act of charity.
No comments...
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@stachu100&Michael
+1
@All perhaps it would be a good moment to make Amiga software to write into eeproms in PCI boards :-)
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Mechy is not ripping off Elbox. How could he possibly be doing that ? He is selling USB carsd that are compatible with the mediator.
I don't think he is breaking any laws. or is morally wrong. Even not icluding all Elbox horrible business practices, what moral/legal right do they have to a Monopoly on PCI USB cards. Competition is good.
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@mboehmer_e3b (http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=659) : excellent post, you hit on the stuff my simple/quick message left out. The deneb is a incredible feat and outclasses the spider ( i know,i own both).
Its a excellent card. i also own a algor pro and it has been a great card.
Would you care to give us a rough estimate of cost on everything involved to make the deneb?
mech
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I really wanted to get a Deneb, if only because it would be supporting Amiga hardware manufacturers and not a generic PCI manufacturer. I also find (after having already purchased the Radeon and Mediator from Elbox) that I don't much care for a lot of their history and practices. If I had been able to get a different PCI bus, I would have.
But really, that's what I think this comes down to. You support the ones who deserve it. For example, the CUSA I think only deserves a little bit support. Why? Because they have managed, at least in a small way, to bring the Commodore name back into the minds of the public. For about as long as the public has any attention span anyhow.
I still wouldn't buy an overpriced x86. I have enough of those already that I could close my eyes and imagine it's an Amiga or C64. Not to mention, I'm not a big fan of Mint Linux.
But *******s don't really deserve to be supported. Maybe it's a cultural thing and Polish people are just that way? ;) I still remember over here in the USA when Pollock jokes became blond jokes...
So how are we doing this? We buy one from Mechy then have to google our brains out for the spider.device? I have the older version that came with my mediator, but since Elbox did this dirty deed...
The Mediator and PCI Busboards for the Amiga were supposedly so you could buy cheap PCI hardware to use instead of the expensive and extremely rare Zorro cards. So if Elbox is a bit butt hurt by this.. well it is what they created it for! That's the reason I bought it initially, because I wanted to be able to use a cheap network card and video card.
slaapliedje
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Maybe it's a cultural thing and Polish people are just that way?
Nope.
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I will second @strim.
Not because I'm Polish, but because it's not true.
@slaapliedje,
In general it's not nice to judge whole nation based on one example. Even if this example is 100% real.
In every nations they are good and bad people, hopefully the first type is majority everywhere.
Jokes are subject to discuss, but I can tell you that we have a lot of jokes about Americans too. Hopefully you don't know them. ;-)
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elbox doesnt deserve any support beyond the opportunity to buy their product. plain and simple, thats what they offer, take it or leave it. you can of course mod whatever you want, you have bougt it, its yours, its up to you.
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I still have about 12 of these usb cards left and ready to work in mediators if anyone needs any. Please PM me here if you want one.
thanks,
Mech
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I'll quite gladly host it for download on CommodoreAmiga.ir if someone sends me the file.
Your pages still say "2 more weeks"... ??
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BUMP! Still have more cards left if anyone needs them! $20 shipped USA,$25 shipped Overseas.5 port USB card with NEC chipset.
Just PM me If you would like one
NEC_USBcard.jpg (http://www.amiga.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1879&stc=1&d=1326929045)
Just reprogrammed the eproms on a few different pci USB cards last night with the NEC chipsets. Thanks goes out to the guy who posted about how to do this.
My process goes something like this- Desolder the eprom,stick it in a soic adapter and that goes into my eprom burner,load some edited eprom code, shoot it to the eprom,remove it,solder it back on the board.Nothing too hard just takes time.
Seem to work fine in my A4000 with 5v Mediator. i did a 3 port and 5 port.Tested keyboards,memsticks,transcend card reader,some windows usb cam(unrecognized)and the sony camera.
The green usb card has a 3.3/5v jumper onboard(seems to run in either position in my 5v mediator with no bad effects). the black card has no voltage jumper.I tested these about 1 hour.
all ports seem to work fine. This was under workbench 3.9 with poseidon 4.4 (thanks chris!) ,spider.device v3.21.My config is csppc,radeon,sb128,100Mbit ethernet.
If anyone who doesn't have the capability to do these themselves needs one i can probabaly offer the 5 port for $15-20 ready to go if anyone is interested but alot of you can do it cheaper i'm sure.I haven't tried these in the newer 1200 3.3v mediators,but no reason for them not to work work.
Don't be surprised if elbox pulls some change in the next drivers update though.
-Mech-
EDIT:
Mediator Driver install: -how i did it-
BACKUP YOUR INSTALL FIRST! you have been warned.
Simply make a drawer called usbhardware in devs: if you don't have this from a previous mediator install.
Copy the spider.device to the above drawer - it must be 3.21 (using anything earlier might have bad effects!?!?!)
Get Poseidon 4.4 (thank chris and your lucky stars for this-maybe buy him something on his wish list).
install Poseidon 4.4 as normal,but don't select ANY of the hardware driver devices(no deneb,no subway etc -deselect all)
go thru the rest of poseidon as normal installing classes and such.
Reboot
Start trident (it should be in sys:Prefs) and goto the "devices" window (it will be empty)
open a cli and enter:
AddUSBHardware Devs:USBHardware/spider.device 2
AddUSBHardware Devs:USBHardware/spider.device 0
AddUSBHardware Devs:USBHardware/spider.device 1
you should see stuff pop up in the trident devices window as you enter and hit return on each of the above in cli.
hit the save at the bottom of the trident window and you should be ready to go!
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BUMP! Still have more cards left if anyone needs them! $20 shipped USA,$25 shipped Overseas.
You might want to mention what the cards look like. 3 USB sockets on the back and 1 angled socket to attach something inside the case?
If you have a Mediator then installing these cards is as simple as copying the spider.device into the correct folder, installing Poseidon and then activating the spider device in the Trident preferences (as Mechy detailed above).
If you already have a Deneb installed then you can have both the Deneb and the Spider running together (just activate the spider device in Trident - no need to update Poseidon). In fact, if you have a Deneb up and running then it really is as simple as copying the spider.device and then activating it in Trident. Click/click and off you go.
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Good idea darrin :D
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I will second @strim.
Not because I'm Polish, but because it's not true.
@slaapliedje,
In general it's not nice to judge whole nation based on one example. Even if this example is 100% real.
In every nations they are good and bad people, hopefully the first type is majority everywhere.
Jokes are subject to discuss, but I can tell you that we have a lot of jokes about Americans too. Hopefully you don't know them. ;-)
Necro defense! Sorry, I hadn't seen this reply. Yeah, I was making a total tongue in cheek reference. I would most likely agree with all the American Jokes (not entirely fond of the United States lately, or for that matter many years. The people here are pretty retarded, and the fact that I live in Utah, they're even worse here.) Any generalization is bad though. There are always exceptions to the rule, especially since the USA is such a huge place, it's better to make jokes about specific states the same way you would about countries in the EU. For example, I'd make incest cracks about those in Arkansas or Alabama, Polygamist jokes about people in Utah, and of course the Steers and Queers jokes about Texas.
:D
Back on topic and more modern things... you still have any more of these cards?
I would like one (wanting to replace the ol' two button ball mouse with an optical USB one.)
slaapliedje
slaapliedje
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@Slap,
You're just jealous 'cos Utah isn't a real place and is full of evil Mormons! Haven't you seen Orgazmo??? XD
[NOTE] - This comment was made in humor and is deemed as "satire", so I am hereby protected by my first amendment right of free speech! ;P
[EDIT] - Hey! Even though I wasn't born in Texas and no longer live there, I'm still a Texan! But my Avatar has a horn, so I guess we know where I'm going with this.
All joking aside, this is a douche move by Elbox. I smell a torrent coming.......
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Is there any way to get it working under OS4.1?
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@Slap,
You're just jealous 'cos Utah isn't a real place and is full of evil Mormons! Haven't you seen Orgazmo??? XD
[NOTE] - This comment was made in humor and is deemed as "satire", so I am hereby protected by my first amendment right of free speech! ;P
[EDIT] - Hey! Even though I wasn't born in Texas and no longer live there, I'm still a Texan! But my Avatar has a horn, so I guess we know where I'm going with this.
All joking aside, this is a douche move by Elbox. I smell a torrent coming.......
I have seen Orgazmo and LOVE IT (own it on DVD, even the awesome edition where Trey Parker and Matt Stone and the guy with the dildo on his head play a drinking game!)
I am surrounded by evil Mormons.
All of my jokes about Polish people were tongue in cheek :D
Anyhow, I'm still interested in one of these USB cards if any are available PM will be sent right after this message.
slaapliedje
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Necro defense! Sorry, I hadn't seen this reply. Yeah, I was making a total tongue in cheek reference. I would most likely agree with all the American Jokes (not entirely fond of the United States lately, or for that matter many years. The people here are pretty retarded, and the fact that I live in Utah, they're even worse here.) Any generalization is bad though. There are always exceptions to the rule, especially since the USA is such a huge place, it's better to make jokes about specific states the same way you would about countries in the EU. For example, I'd make incest cracks about those in Arkansas or Alabama, Polygamist jokes about people in Utah, and of course the Steers and Queers jokes about Texas.
:D
Back on topic and more modern things... you still have any more of these cards?
I would like one (wanting to replace the ol' two button ball mouse with an optical USB one.)
slaapliedje
slaapliedje
Sorry all, these cards have long been sold out.
I was wondering why i was getting so many Pm's and such all of a sudden.
if i keep getting so much interest i may have to run off another batch.
Mech
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Oops! Well, count me in for one! I have had a few crappy months and couldn't get any money to put toward my Amiga.
I have also wanted to clear up the lock ups that I posted in a different thread.
slaapliedje
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If you do, let us know. I never got it to work in my A1200T but it works a treat in my A4000D. So much so, I figured I'd buy another one.
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Just to let you lot know: I tested one of these NEC usb cards and it works great even with the latest spider.device 3.22. No RDB trashing seems to be going on...
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Seems like I have one of these compatible NEC USB cards. It shows up in pciinfo at least. Is there any other way to flash the card other than desoldering the chip?
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I notice it was a while since last activity on this thread.
I can report that new cards with the suitable chip, D720101F1, are flourishing on eBay for just a few USD including shipping.
I also noticed a new card being sold with no eprom, wonder where it would keep the ID..
As for the programming of the chip, what kit did you use? I suppose it is as easy as reading the contents, searching current device ID with an hex-editor, and replace it with the "Elbox Device ID", then write back?
(Would be neat writing a piece of software that would update the flash, if physically reachable through the PCI-bus).
Has the opposite been tried, searching through pci.library / spider.device, replacing the elbox ID with that of the card (NEC ID..?). If success, no modification to the card would be needed..
Thanks!
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I notice it was a while since last activity on this thread.
I can report that new cards with the suitable chip, D720101F1, are flourishing on eBay for just a few USD including shipping.
I also noticed a new card being sold with no eprom, wonder where it would keep the ID..
As for the programming of the chip, what kit did you use? I suppose it is as easy as reading the contents, searching current device ID with an hex-editor, and replace it with the "Elbox Device ID", then write back?
(Would be neat writing a piece of software that would update the flash, if physically reachable through the PCI-bus).
Has the opposite been tried, searching through pci.library / spider.device, replacing the elbox ID with that of the card (NEC ID..?). If success, no modification to the card would be needed..
Thanks!
I used a BPmicrosystems BP-1600 eprom burner with soic adapter. Read out the serial eprom, edit it, and shoot it back. if course it means desoldering the chip to do this. yes i guess the driver itself could be hacked,assuming that is the only thing that looks for the ID.
There is prob. a way to jtag it while on the board,but i dont know of one.
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Would you reprogram eprom from my card? I will desolder it... and put it back?
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NEC/Renesas apparently had a utility to program the ROM on board, though I was unable to track it down. The few people that still have it are unwilling to share.
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Im interested in one. Depending on price and how idiot proof it is for myself ;)
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Im interested in one. Depending on price and how idiot proof it is for myself ;)
see post #89, these have been sold out long ago ;)
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But if anymore are done im interested :)