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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Cammy on November 03, 2011, 03:54:11 PM

Title: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: Cammy on November 03, 2011, 03:54:11 PM
Hi everyone. I've been using this setup on a few of my Amigas for a while and have been meaning to make a better video demonstration showing the difference between the blurry output from the Amiga A1200's internal Composite and the sharp output from a RGB to S-Video adapter. Using one of these cheap adapters with a LCD TV you'll get a crystal-clear, flicker-free Workbench and vibrant games that don't bleed colour as they do through the native output.

Of course if your LCD TV has Scart input, then you only need an even cheaper RGB-Scart cable to enjoy similar results.

First you will see me demonstrate a few things through Composite, where you'll notice significant colour bleed, dot-crawl, interference and strange discolouration artifacts such as the orange tiger in my wallpaper turning green when I drag the screen down to reveal another screen behind it. Half way through the demonstration my cameraman switches us over to S-Video where I go through the demonstration again so you can notice firstly how much sharper and more stable the image is, and then watch as I drag the screens around without any colour distortion.

Unfortunately the cheap camera we used doesn't fully do it justice, it couldn't really focus on the screen enough to show just how sharp the S-Video output is, or how badly warped the colour and ghosting is through Composite. I have included some high definition photos of the same software running through both outputs on the same LCD screen.

[YOUTUBE]4L2279fq258[/YOUTUBE]

Here are some high resolution photos (I apologize to anyone who waited too long for these to load) showing first the Composite then S-Video (my hero). What do you think of the difference?

(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6038/6308950847_b898518616_b.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6048/6308950853_f2588d8585_b.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6108/6308950857_bcd7e83f3c_b.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6229/6308950859_6ccc7e5f5c_b.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6059/6308950861_b381eb1acc_b.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6119/6308950865_f6a6e9f739_b.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6236/6308958863_bd74f373a6_b.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6235/6308958871_b2b4332c48_b.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6113/6308958875_c489fa299a_b.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6211/6308958877_f72a90fc4a_b.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6212/6308958895_9bfcf14008_b.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6116/6308958899_2c5501e8e5_b.jpg)

And here are some screenshots of those screens:

(http://www.amiga.org/gallery/images/5087/1_Workbench3.1.png)
(http://www.amiga.org/gallery/images/5087/1_MacOS7.1.1.png)
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: Cammy on November 03, 2011, 04:11:38 PM
Oh, and by the way, the demonstration was performed on an A1200 running the standard 14Mhz 68EC020 CPU with a simple DKB 1202 8MB RAM/FPU card added rather than an accelerator. Doom would run a little smoother if I wasn't running two Operating Systems and several applications in each at the same time.

Also, Doom is running in NTSC mode while Workbench and MacOS are both running in PAL, which explains why the display jumps a bit when I flip between screens.

That's right, no accelerator, just a bit of extra RAM in a stock A1200.
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: bbond007 on November 03, 2011, 04:49:16 PM
Cammy

Another alternative (for someone who already has a PC) is to use one of these inexpensive USB video grabbing devices with Virtualdub. The one I have is a kworld and it was given to me in a box of junk. I can't imagine it costing more than $40 or so new...

With Virtualdub you can set up filters and different deinterlacing options to make the screen look better. I have only played with a few of the possibilities...

I started messing it as a way to simply capture the amiga's video for youtube or something, but running full-screen I was pretty impressed with the results, enough so that I could totally see someone using that as a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer solution.

Also, laptop can make a nice portable amiga display...

Like in your examples, Amigamaniacs SVIDEO adapter totally cleans up the picture, but the the difference between that and the built-in composite is not as dramatic. I think this device virtualdub does a really good job filtering out the noise in the composite.

I could provide some screen shots later this evening if you are interested in seeing how it looks.

_nate
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: ognix on November 05, 2011, 09:31:09 PM
Very nice and outstanding results with little gems...
That's the kind of things I like: good/great achivements with little/scarse resources.

Well done Cammy!  :)
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: BillHarrison on November 05, 2011, 10:28:16 PM
Quote from: bbond007;666388
Cammy

Another alternative (for someone who already has a PC) is to use one of these inexpensive USB video grabbing devices with Virtualdub. The one I have is a kworld and it was given to me in a box of junk. I can't imagine it costing more than $40 or so new...

With Virtualdub you can set up filters and different deinterlacing options to make the screen look better. I have only played with a few of the possibilities...

I started messing it as a way to simply capture the amiga's video for youtube or something, but running full-screen I was pretty impressed with the results, enough so that I could totally see someone using that as a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer solution.

Also, laptop can make a nice portable amiga display...

Like in your examples, Amigamaniacs SVIDEO adapter totally cleans up the picture, but the the difference between that and the built-in composite is not as dramatic. I think this device virtualdub does a really good job filtering out the noise in the composite.

I could provide some screen shots later this evening if you are interested in seeing how it looks.

_nate


I would love to see this if you don't mind would be a great alternative for me as I could just run it through my htpc in my room which is always on and have one monitor and the Amiga under the desk -  would just need a way to use my of mouse and keyboard then!
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: Firedawg on November 05, 2011, 10:54:27 PM
Cammy, great demo of the video adapter.  I have used similar converters  with some success of quality.  I have since equipped both my A1200s with  Indivision AGA 1200 Scandoubler/Flicker Fixer, but your adapter is a  bit more budget friendly.  

Mike
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: fishy_fiz on November 05, 2011, 11:36:29 PM
Another el cheapo method (and 1 that I used for a while) was to plug a 2nd monitor into my Windows box and then plug my a1200 into the tv tuner card of that machine and output the to the 2nd display.
Could be used in tandem with one of the aforementioned adaptors (or composite), and image quality tuned further through tv tuner software.
Additionally I had the 2nd input of my monitor connected through a rgb to vga adaptor for productivity and similar screenmodes and just pressed the monitor input button to switch between 15khz/composite and 31khz/vga (although if Id had a rbg to s-video adaptor Id probably have just used that full time).
Not really better or worse than Cammy's suggestion, but just another way to make the most of what a person has and/or limit extra expenses.
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: bbond007 on November 06, 2011, 12:05:54 AM
Quote from: BillHarrison;666722
I would love to see this if you don't mind would be a great alternative for me as I could just run it through my htpc in my room which is always on and have one monitor and the Amiga under the desk -  would just need a way to use my of mouse and keyboard then!

I'm running PAL 640x512 interlace.

this is the device:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=612720&CatId=1428

this is with the amiga composite

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69485538@N06/6316214443/

this is with Amigamaniacs svideo adapter

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69485538@N06/6316213803/
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: captainmoomoo on November 06, 2011, 05:14:13 PM
Hi Cammy,

This is awesome and just what I've been looking for! Do you know where I could buy an RGB to S-Video adapter? All I've seen are scart adapters, but these are of no use in Canada!
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: bbond007 on November 06, 2011, 06:15:55 PM
Quote from: captainmoomoo;666776
Hi Cammy,

This is awesome and just what I've been looking for! Do you know where I could buy an RGB to S-Video adapter? All I've seen are scart adapters, but these are of no use in Canada!


http://www.amigamaniac.com/RGB_to_PAL_NTSC_adapter.html

this is where I got mine, but I think he may not be taking orders...
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: XDelusion on November 06, 2011, 07:17:44 PM
Cammy: What model TV are you using? The one I used to have would not display anything through the RGB Adapters I own.
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: yssing on November 06, 2011, 07:46:13 PM
Now I want one of those :)
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: carvedeye on November 06, 2011, 08:04:56 PM
Would  this work as an alternative?
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: XDelusion on November 06, 2011, 08:06:51 PM
Quote from: carvedeye;666793
Would  this work as an alternative?


Ha ha ha! Probably. Never seen one of those before! :)
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: bbond007 on November 06, 2011, 08:29:51 PM
Quote from: carvedeye;666793
Would  this work as an alternative?


What is that thing?
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: Cammy on November 06, 2011, 10:16:23 PM
The monitor I use is a Vivid LCD TV from Aldi. They can't be bought in shops normally, Aldi just has these special deals once a year where they have TVs that last for about ten minutes after the doors open. I have to line up for over an hour before the shop opens so I can rush in and buy them. I got these little ones a few years ago and a larger one this year, which I use now on my main A1200.
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: XDelusion on November 06, 2011, 10:20:25 PM
Quote from: Cammy;666814
The monitor I use is a Vivid LCD TV from Aldi. They can't be bought in shops normally, Aldi just has these special deals once a year where they have TVs that last for about ten minutes after the doors open. I have to line up for over an hour before the shop opens so I can rush in and buy them. I got these little ones a few years ago and a larger one this year, which I use now on my main A1200.


Aghh, and I believe that will be the catch. It is hard to find a TV will display the Amiga's display using the RGB adapter.
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: dougal on November 06, 2011, 10:23:48 PM
Is there any adapter for an LCD monitor to accept scart?
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: orange on November 06, 2011, 10:35:17 PM
Quote from: dougal;666817
Is there any adapter for an LCD monitor to accept scart?


iirc, its easy to build VGA<->SCART adapter, but that won't help if LCD can't multisync
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: XDelusion on November 06, 2011, 10:35:23 PM
And where are you guys getting SCART from Amiga in the first place. My RGB adapter only outputs to S-Video and basic RCA.
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: orange on November 06, 2011, 10:37:54 PM
Quote from: XDelusion;666821
And where are you guys getting SCART from Amiga in the first place. My RGB adapter only outputs to S-Video and basic RCA.


just what do you mean by SCART? it can be RGB, composite, s-video, YPbPr:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scart

Amiga video port has RGB, and you can 'build' other types of signal from it.
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: XDelusion on November 06, 2011, 10:50:58 PM
I'm just saying that my RGB adapter that I bought off AMiga Maniac does not have the SCART feature, yet when ever I read about people using their Amiga's on Flat Screen TV's they are always connecting with SCART.

Is there an adapter I would need to build for my RGB adapter then? I'm confused.
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: orange on November 06, 2011, 10:56:50 PM
Quote from: XDelusion;666826
I'm just saying that my RGB adapter that I bought off AMiga Maniac does not have the SCART feature, yet when ever I read about people using their Amiga's on Flat Screen TV's they are always connecting with SCART.

Is there an adapter I would need to build for my RGB adapter then? I'm confused.


no, they are connecting SCART directly to Amiga video port:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=47281
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: XDelusion on November 06, 2011, 11:07:30 PM
Oh... :)
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: dougal on November 06, 2011, 11:18:21 PM
I have used my Amiga's on my flat screen lcd tv's using the RGB->Scart cable and it looks great with no flicker.
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: XDelusion on November 06, 2011, 11:22:50 PM
Quote from: dougal;666832
I have used my Amiga's on my flat screen lcd tv's using the RGB->Scart cable and it looks great with no flicker.


Care to share what model of TV's?
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: Cammy on November 07, 2011, 01:10:27 AM
Scart is quite common in Europe but not in North America or Australia, which is why many of us must use these RGB-S-Video adapters rather than RGB-Scart. Hopefully AmigaManiac will have new stock online soon if anyone wants one.
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: dougal on November 07, 2011, 06:16:34 AM
Quote from: XDelusion;666833
Care to share what model of TV's?


One is a Samsung and the other a Toshiba. Don't know the models. Actually the Samsung is a Plasma TV and about 6 years old.
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: orange on November 07, 2011, 07:08:58 AM
Quote from: Cammy;666841
Scart is quite common in Europe but not in North America or Australia, which is why many of us must use these RGB-S-Video adapters rather than RGB-Scart. Hopefully AmigaManiac will have new stock online soon if anyone wants one.


if they have VGA input, its worth trying to connect to it instead of missing SCART RGB.
there shouldn't be much difference, its just like connecting C=1084 monitor.
 
iirc, someone here had luck with such LCD TV.
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: Cammy on November 07, 2011, 10:15:10 AM
Oh, I've tried all of my LCD TVs through a RGB-VGA adapter (silver Commodore one) and the only modes that worked were Multiscan 640x480. Unfortunately PAL and NTSC didn't work on them. The Indivision does though. :)
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: Amiten on November 07, 2011, 12:01:52 PM
Hi,
 
Cammy what its the workbench do you use? looks Very impresive thanks
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: DrDekker on November 07, 2011, 12:50:49 PM
RGB to Scart works great on my 42" Samsung Series 4 plasma and Series 5 50" plasma.

Also works very well on my 22" Samsung LCD TV/monitor - although the screen does wiggle a little bit at times - probably due to the rats nest of wiring and power cabling from my PC.  I'll probably tidy up the cabling sometime and make a new RGB to scart lead with a choke to see if that improves things.
Title: Re: A cheaper alternative to a ScanDoubler/FlickerFixer - RGB to S-Video on LCD
Post by: Framiga on November 07, 2011, 12:59:24 PM
Quote from: XDelusion;666786
Cammy: What model TV are you using? The one I used to have would not display anything through the RGB Adapters I own.

if you have an NTSC Amiga connected to a NTSC TV/monitor via S-Video (4 pins mini din connector), i don't see how it wouldn't work.

Of course, you have to enter in the TV menu, and chose S-Video as input.