Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: techlord on November 01, 2011, 09:20:25 PM
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I was born around '75, and grew up in the microComputer scene...However, I never had the money for an AMIGA, but always drooled over them when I was growing up..so suffice to say, I'm new to the CURRENT amiga scene, but have been reading...so go easy on me. I have investigated several options:
1. Buying a Mac Mini G4 1.42Ghz with a 1 GB ram, and putting morph OS on it
2. Buying a SAM440EX based board and building my own, and installing AmigaOS 4.1 (seems nice, but an expensive endever) I thought I would install Morph OS first...but not sure if its the experiance I'm looking for.
One last point of note, I recently installed WinUAE, and did what I consider to be a RAW install of OS 3.9. I'm doing that to bring myself up to speed on the OS. So my questions are:
A. Which route above do you think is the better one for the true amiga experiance (I know I'm going to have people telling me to buy an Amiga 1200, put an accelertor card in it, and go from there, but I', not sure I have the money for that.) I loved the Dan Wood videos on youtube :) He has them all ;)
B. Don't lynch me on this one, if its been asked over and over again, I googled it, and couldn;t find the answer. Can I run AmigaOS 4.0 or 4.1 CLASSIC on WinUAE? I know I can run OS3.9, so I was wondering what the stretch was...
Thanks in adavance for helping a OLD newcomer out.
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Well the question is what you really want to do with your "new" "Amiga" ?
If your into games and apps from yesteryears (Win)UAE is your way to go.
If you want to experience a "modern Amiga" you should imform yourself a bit more into detail.
Testing OS4 is next to impossible without handing out $$$, you might want to visit a local user meeting (is such thing exist).
Testing MorphOS can be done quiet easily and cheap:
Buy a supported Mac:
- eMacs and PowerMacs can be had for 50Euro or less
- MacMinis are bit more expensive, if you do go that route searching for the "silent upgrade" model with 1.5GHz and 64MB VRAM is strongly advised.
MorphOS runs unregistered on these for 30 minutes after each boot before it will slow down.
If you like it you can invest 111Euro into a licence.
If you don't like it you can resell that Mac through the same channels you got it and get back more or less what you paid yourself.
Edith:
Neither MorphOS nor OS4 offer "true Amiga" feeling, both reimplement the API on PPC-CPUs and come with an emulator to run 68k-SW.
SW that bypasses the systems or relies on specific features of the orginal chipsets (aka real Amigas) won't run unless you put them inside an UAE-setup. Pretty much all games fall into this category.
(Win)UAE only emulates an 68k, PPC OSes like OS4.x or MorphOS won't run here.
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The Morph option is a lot cheaper. The MorphOS demo is free, and the hardware it will run on can be had for very little investment, or in some cases - entirely free.
The OS4 deal is offputtingly expensive to get into, but I enjoy my SAM 440. It's far from what I would consider a replacement for legacy Amiga HW, though - esp. if you are into games. You're mostly stuck doing emulation on OS4 for older programs, games - etc.
You cannot run OS4 on UAE that I know of.
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I was born around '75, and grew up in the microComputer scene...However, I never had the money for an AMIGA, but always drooled over them when I was growing up..so suffice to say, I'm new to the CURRENT amiga scene, but have been reading...so go easy on me. I have investigated several options:
1. Buying a Mac Mini G4 1.42Ghz with a 1 GB ram, and putting morph OS on it
2. Buying a SAM440EX based board and building my own, and installing AmigaOS 4.1 (seems nice, but an expensive endever) I thought I would install Morph OS first...but not sure if its the experiance I'm looking for.
One last point of note, I recently installed WinUAE, and did what I consider to be a RAW install of OS 3.9. I'm doing that to bring myself up to speed on the OS. So my questions are:
A. Which route above do you think is the better one for the true amiga experiance (I know I'm going to have people telling me to buy an Amiga 1200, put an accelertor card in it, and go from there, but I', not sure I have the money for that.) I loved the Dan Wood videos on youtube :) He has them all ;)
B. Don't lynch me on this one, if its been asked over and over again, I googled it, and couldn;t find the answer. Can I run AmigaOS 4.0 or 4.1 CLASSIC on WinUAE? I know I can run OS3.9, so I was wondering what the stretch was...
Thanks in adavance for helping a OLD newcomer out.
As mentioned, it depends a lot on what you want to do with the system.
OS4 and up require powerPC, either one of the insanely expensive boards for a classic amiga, or a machine built for it (the amiga one SAM stuff)
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One last point of note, I recently installed WinUAE, and did what I consider to be a RAW install of OS 3.9. I'm doing that to bring myself up to speed on the OS. So my questions are:
A. Which route above do you think is the better one for the true amiga experiance (I know I'm going to have people telling me to buy an Amiga 1200, put an accelertor card in it, and go from there, but I', not sure I have the money for that.) I loved the Dan Wood videos on youtube :) He has them all ;)
Why get an accelerator card? Unless you have some particular software in mind to use it with, there's absolutely no reason to get one. Visit your local thrift stores, flea markets and garage sales, you can pick up an A500 on the cheap and who knows what else you may find.
B. Don't lynch me on this one, if its been asked over and over again, I googled it, and couldn;t find the answer. Can I run AmigaOS 4.0 or 4.1 CLASSIC on WinUAE? I know I can run OS3.9, so I was wondering what the stretch was...
It's the other way around, you have to run UAE on OS4 to run much Amiga software. If you're into Linux ports though OS4 is a great choice if you can't run Linux for whatever reason.
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@techlord
You've got to ask yourself the question what you really are looking for, what are you intested in?
Is it to play old games and use old apps and the old OS, etc? Then you really want maximum compatibility, which means UAE or real Amigas (or maybe Minimig?).
But if your interest is towards having a 2011 level Amiga experience (modern desktop, browsing, media files, etc) then there is really no real alternative than MorphOS IMHO.
:)
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Basically, both MorphOS and AmigaOS 4 are "next-gen" Amiga-like experiences, but when it comes down to it it's entirely subjective. Don't be out off by people yelling propaganda about either system, both have their fans and their haters. Both have strengths and weaknesses, and both allow Classic Amiga programs which don't use the hardware directly to run, you don't need UAE on either. Some say MorphOS is slightly more compatible with classic programs but I have few troubles on my os4 machines either.
Personally, I have both and I use OS4 a lot more, because I find it more comfortable, but you may find the opposite.
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Unless you want to play PowerPC type high speed Amiga games like Wipeout, Quake etc don't bother.
With MorphOS you have a mediocre OS that has nothing to do with real Amigas running on a Mac
With OS 4 you have a semi-official update to OS 3.x running on expensive underwhelming white elephant of a computer.
Both need UAE emulator to enjoy anything worth doing and none of them can play real Amiga games from disks. So save you cash, tweak UAE and forget all the fake Amiga stuff. No Paula chip = not Amiga....just another emulator.
For watching movie files, browsing the net, streaming content, instant messaging.....just get a Linux/OSX/Windows machine and don't kid yourself into blowing cash on fake Amigas. That's what sane Amiga lovers do :)
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Naturally, I'm biased, but I don't think I can agree with any of this.
Frankly, I have PCs. And I run Windows, OSX, and Ubuntu.
But I really like MorphOS and believe OS4 is progressing reasonably well.
Both run Amiga PPC software far better then a PPC equipped Amiga and either will run newer games and software ported to these platforms.
Further, if you've developed software under Amiga OS3.X, adapting to a MorphOS or AOS environment is relatively straight forward.
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I think Digiman is just attempting to out troll Jorkany & Talemehomegrandma. It takes some effort to pull that off and still appear serious.
Unless you want to play PowerPC type high speed Amiga games like Wipeout, Quake etc don't bother.
With MorphOS you have a mediocre OS that has nothing to do with real Amigas running on a Mac
With OS 4 you have a semi-official update to OS 3.x running on expensive underwhelming white elephant of a computer.
Both need UAE emulator to enjoy anything worth doing and none of them can play real Amiga games from disks. So save you cash, tweak UAE and forget all the fake Amiga stuff. No Paula chip = not Amiga....just another emulator.
For watching movie files, browsing the net, streaming content, instant messaging.....just get a Linux/OSX/Windows machine and don't kid yourself into blowing cash on fake Amigas. That's what sane Amiga lovers do :)
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Thanks for all of your input. I'm currently installing OS 3.9 on WinUAE, and I'll make my decision later now ha ha ha...I think I may still buy a cheap Mini Mac G4, and then see how I like morphOS.
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Thanks for all of your input. I'm currently installing OS 3.9 on WinUAE, and I'll make my decision later now ha ha ha...I think I may still buy a cheap Mini Mac G4, and then see how I like morphOS.
That's kind of how I got hooked.
I bought a Quicksilver Powermac on Ebay for $19.95 (w/o hard drive, memory or video card).
All I had to do was reseat the CPU card, add memory, and a hard drive (which I already had) and install a cheap video card.
My initial MorphOS investment was under $50.
Then I started using it. Its quite cool.
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Both have strengths and weaknesses, and both allow Classic Amiga programs which don't use the hardware directly to run, you don't need UAE on either..
A small point to note is that if you happen to run OS4 on classic hardware then plenty (not all, but that would be a stretch) of 68K apps which do require the native hardware continue to work.
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A small point to note is that if you happen to run OS4 on classic hardware then plenty (not all, but that would be a stretch) of 68K apps which do require the native hardware continue to work.
Very good point, Karlos.
From what I've seen, a PPC equipped Amiga running OS4 is quite compatible with older apps (and it runs them much quicker).
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I was born around '75, and grew up in the microComputer scene...However, I never had the money for an AMIGA, but always drooled over them when I was growing up..so suffice to say, I'm new to the CURRENT amiga scene, but have been reading...so go easy on me. I have investigated several options:
I graduated from High School the year before you were born, so I was a lot older than you when the Amiga first appeared, but I did not buy one until late 1986, or early 1987, can't remember exactly when.
1. Buying a Mac Mini G4 1.42Ghz with a 1 GB ram, and putting morph OS on it
G4 Mac Mini's are usually more expensive than buying a G4 eMac that has about the same performance and comes with a monitor, but they are ungodly heavy and can cost more to ship them then the price to purchase them. But if you can find one locally for free, or for very little money, they are a good choice to run MorphOS on. Specially the 1.42GHz model, which I think comes with 64mb of VRAM (might be wrong on that spec though). Only the 1.5GHz G4 Mac Mini comes with 64mb of VRAM, the rest have only 32mb VRAM, which might cause some problems if you are using enhanced display modes and large high resolution monitors. Another cheap choice of G4 Mac hardware is the slower G4 PowerMacs, like the 500MHz to 867MHz, or even 1.0GHz models. You might need to replace the video card with a Radeon 9000Pro which are easy to find for the Mac, or one of the other supported video cards, as the original video cards in most of the early G4 PowerMacs are not supported. I got my dual 1.25GHz G4 MDD PowerMac for less than $50 and no shipping or tax and I just saw a dual 1.0GHz G4 MDD PowerMac get sold on eBay today for 0.99 cents plus shipping, but the shipping was $75. It appears that most supported G4 eMacs and PowerMacs on eBay are selling for around $100 when you include the shipping, but if you keep your eyes open, and look around your local area at thrift shops, recycled computer stores, or garage & yard sales, you can probably find a G4 PowerMac like I did for less than $50.
2. Buying a SAM440EX based board and building my own, and installing AmigaOS 4.1 (seems nice, but an expensive endever) I thought I would install Morph OS first...but not sure if its the experiance I'm looking for.
Some people like OS4 best and others like MorphOS2.7 best, it is all very subjective. The nice thing about MorphOS is that you can usually find the hardware to run it very cheap, or maybe even free, or you can possibly borrow someone's compatible G4 Mac system and you can download and install MorphOS2.7, and run it for free 30 minutes at a time between re-boots to see if you like it. If it does not fit your needs, or you don't like it for any reason, you can usually sell the hardware for the same amount you paid for it, or more if you were careful when you purchased, so you are not out any money, or very little. OS4 on the other hand must be purchased, there is no free version to try out, so I suggest that you find someone that has it running on the same hardware that you are thinking of buying to run it on, and test it out at their house to see if you like it. Most OS4 users would be happy to invite you over to show you OS4 running and let you play with it for as long as you like to see if it is what you want. Just ask around here and other sites, until you find an OS4 user that lives close to you, or close to some place that you have always wanted to visit. That way you won't be disappointed after you buy what ever system you decide to get, because you will already know what you are getting in advance.
One last point of note, I recently installed WinUAE, and did what I consider to be a RAW install of OS 3.9. I'm doing that to bring myself up to speed on the OS. So my questions are:
A. Which route above do you think is the better one for the true amiga experiance (I know I'm going to have people telling me to buy an Amiga 1200, put an accelertor card in it, and go from there, but I', not sure I have the money for that.) I loved the Dan Wood videos on youtube :) He has them all ;)
It sound like you want a Next Gen Amiga system, and not just a Classic Amiga experience. There is no one answer for which one is more of a "True Amiga experience", as both sides will tell you that they think their choice is more like what the true experience would be if Commodore was still in business today. Those arguments can get very heated in a short period of time and are pointless. Only you can decide what is a "True Amiga Experience" for yourself.
B. Don't lynch me on this one, if its been asked over and over again, I googled it, and couldn;t find the answer. Can I run AmigaOS 4.0 or 4.1 CLASSIC on WinUAE? I know I can run OS3.9, so I was wondering what the stretch was...
Thanks in adavance for helping a OLD newcomer out.
This question has been answered already by a couple of people. It is NO.
Welcome back to Amigaland and personally I hope you will choose both (or all three, as you have not mentioned AROS, which is another valid choice of Next Generation Amiga systems) and enjoy all there is to experience in the Amiga community.
(warning: DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS!)
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Thanks for your words of wisdom and encouragement AmigaDave and others, (I like the powermac idea as well, I was thinking about this too).
I'm pretty excited about the prospect of the X1000 and It indeed would be nice to find an AmigaOS4.XX user running the OS on a modern sam board or the likes, but Alas, I live in a Northern community in Canada, and not many people up here, even recognize the word Amiga anymore :(
I wish there was a club close to where I live. I have seen some other Canadians around the forums, but have no idea where they are, I am guessing a larger city...but who knows...maybe I'll run into someone not too far away. One last note, AmigaDave, the word obsession for me is an understatement, and if I get really obsessed with this endeavor, it's not outside of the realm of possibility that I will end up with Classic, and current hardware :) Although, my wife may never forgive me ;)
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@techlord
General rule of thumb, those that spout mostly negative, off topic stuff in a thread like this arent worth listening to and are only in it to try to cause troubles (sad gits, but such is life). Im sure even someone new though can see the genuine responses vs. those trying to instigate trouble (you watch, those same people will now try to justify themselves on the back of me mentioning this (although Ive only said this to stop them doing thier usual nonsense) :)).
In regards to the actual questions it depends on what you want to do with it. If you want to play old amiga games and whatnot then AROS may actually be something worth trying as its version of uae is orders of magnitude times faster than that for os4 or mos. Having said that though, if youre content to use windows, then winuae is pretty much the ultimate amiga emulator.
Personally I'd probably try that 1st, learn the system, find what software you like and what you feel is missing. After that perhaps try out AROS (which runs on standard pc hardware and is free/open source, so its not gonna cost you a penny) and see if a dedicated "amiga" system is for you. It is the rawest of the NG Amiga derived systems, but should give you a feel for whether an amiga based system is for you, at which point you could then go on to spend more money if you want mos or os4 (or stick with aros if you enjoy it). While it (AROS) is the rawest of the 3, it does have some of it own advantages. Cheap, most powerful hardware by a long shot (only amiga derived system to be able to play 1080p video for example), best hardware support, best 3d subsystem (you watch a few particular mos people claim that its unstable now though (which is a crock, most of the negativity comes from those that dont like the fact other options are superior in some ways)) and the fact its x86 means that there's often codepaths in software that make the end product far faster (uae and dosbox come to mind).
This isnt to say AROS is the best choice, that's all down to the individual, but for someone not wanting to invest much money while they get a feel for the amiga it's a good place to look. The main reason Ive elaborated is becuase unfortunately this community is for the most part insecure and there's a lot of people that will stick up for thier system of choice and badmouth others even when its not warranted. I just thought Id give you the true lowdown on AROS before one of a few usual suspects twist and contort th truth for thier own fragile egos. They probably still will, but at least now youve been warned and will know what to, and not to listen to.
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Play around with UAE for now and get your bearings. Take a look at AROS and all it's distributions. Maybe even setup an AROS box. Could even do that in Virtual Box or Virtual PC, instead of a physical computer.
Wait around till mid 2012 or so for the much cheaper Amiga OS4 laptops.
Enjoy! and Welcome to AO!
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Thanks for your words of wisdom and encouragement AmigaDave and others, (I like the powermac idea as well, I was thinking about this too).
I'm pretty excited about the prospect of the X1000 and It indeed would be nice to find an AmigaOS4.XX user running the OS on a modern sam board or the likes, but Alas, I live in a Northern community in Canada, and not many people up here, even recognize the word Amiga anymore :(
I wish there was a club close to where I live. I have seen some other Canadians around the forums, but have no idea where they are, I am guessing a larger city...but who knows...maybe I'll run into someone not too far away. One last note, AmigaDave, the word obsession for me is an understatement, and if I get really obsessed with this endeavor, it's not outside of the realm of possibility that I will end up with Classic, and current hardware :) Although, my wife may never forgive me ;)
The lead programmer for OS4 lives in Canada, but it is a big country, so you may be hundreds or thousands of miles (or kilometers) apart. Try to find out where Steve Solie lives in relation to where you live.
Take my advice and try out all of the flavors of the Amiga experience before you make up your mind on any one of them. If you can't actually get a chance to sample all of them, ask lots of questions and view as many YouTube videos as you can before you spend any money on any of them.
Who would have thought we would have so many different choices compared to 5 years ago.
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To me personally a lot of joy comes from physically playing with the old hardware.... the feel of the keys and working with it... i don't know, but UAE just doesn't do it for me as a real-Amiga-replacement.
I'd say that even with a limited budget a nice A1200 is within financial reach. Just the stock machine with a small HD or CompactFlash adapter will give you a great start again in Amiga world. You can later add an accelerator and VGA scan doubler and still spend less than a good smartphone costs these days ;-)
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if you have the 3.5, 3.9 or Amigaforever-CD you can easily install Amikit. http://amikit.amiga.sk/
it is a huge distribution based on 3.X and the main distribution for Natami. I am preparing a big update http://www.natami-news.de/html/amikit.html that can be easy installed with Grunch (a new Package-Manager, in preparation). This could be a alternative to buy expensive PPC-Hardware. The Natami could be a alternative hardware too. Infos: http://www.natami.net/news.htm
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There are those who're classic purists. On any system other than a 68K based Amiga you are running an emulator to run classic software. Morphos,AROS, OS 4.1 all use UAE to run classic software. Minimig comes closest in that it's emulating the custom chips in firmware.
As a previous poster said, there's still a fair number of classic Amigas that find their way into op shops and markets that you can pick up for almost nothing. Ebay on a good day will get you a functional system at a somewhat reasonable price, but on a bad day will generate some astronomical prices. EBay is generally a seller's market.
You might also want to place an ad looking for Amigas in Craigslist. I know people who've gotten most any model that way, often for little more than the price of the petrol to pick it up.
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Basically, both MorphOS and AmigaOS 4 are "next-gen" Amiga-like experiences, but when it comes down to it it's entirely subjective.
Of course emotions and other subjective, irrational things can also affect your choice, but MorphOS...
...is faster...
...has the latest versions of the best Amiga standards integrated (like CGX, Poseidon, MUI4, etc)...
...has more and better features...
...is more Amiga (classic) compatible...
...is ahelluvalot cheaper (looking at total system cost)...
...runs on (albeit second hand but still) easily obtainable, high quality, mainstream hardware...
...and there is really nothing subjective about that, only pure, measurable facts.
:)
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I think Digiman is just attempting to out troll Jorkany & Talemehomegrandma. It takes some effort to pull that off and still appear serious.
It would be no easy accomplishment, both have accrued at least 20 solid trolling years between them.
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It would be no easy accomplishment, both have accrued at least 20 solid trolling years between them.
And funnily enough, this comment of yours was probably the most rude, off topic and pointless post in the thread...
:rolleyes:
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And funnily enough, this comment of yours was probably the most rude, off topic and pointless post in the thread...
:rolleyes:
well, what it lacked in tact, it made up for in accuracy.
-- eliyahu
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@techlord
I live in Edmonton, Alberta. Steve Solie lives in southern Alberta near Calgary.
I am a merely a user, but I have done a few demos of OS4 at the local Amiga club in the Edmonton area. Great bunch of guys who have mostly moved away Amiga stuff, but we have lots of fun with many different operating systems and programs.
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redfox
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@techlord
Unfortunately, you cannot run AmigaOS 4.0 or 4.1 CLASSIC on WinUAE. You must have an A1200 with a PPC accelerator or A3000 with a PPC accelerator or A4000 with a PPC accelerator.
There is no demo version of OS4. You have to have the correct hardware already or purchase a system bundled with OS4.
The price of entry for a new OS4 system is quite high compared to the other options. SAM460 is less expensive than the new AmigaOne X1000.
There are some used systems available. IMHO, SAM440 and SAM440 Flex are good choices for the used market. Apparently, Pegasos II systems are also a good choice. I would stay clear of the older AmigaOne systems and MicroA1 systems, unless you can see the system in action before you purchase (most of these systems are more than five years old).
If you are interested in games, an A500 or A1200 might be a good way to get started.
Sounds like you already know about WinUAE. Amiga Forever is another choice for x86 systems.
Lots of other people have already recommended MorphOS systems.
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redfox
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Basically, both MorphOS and AmigaOS 4 are "next-gen" Amiga-like experiences, but when it comes down to it it's entirely subjective.
WHY was my reply to this comment, made yesterday, mysteriously removed???
It was not in breach of *any* terms of service or "netiquette", it was merely a short list of *objective* reasons that could (or even should) affect ones choice, made as a counterclaim to the above "it's entirely subjective", and the post was polite its tone.
Is Amiga.org turning into what AW.net was a decade ago, where threads get locked/removed, posts disappear etc in a subjective manner in order to favor a certain group of people's economical interests?
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WHY was my reply to this comment, made yesterday, mysteriously removed???
It was not in breach of *any* terms of service or "netiquette", it was merely a short list of *objective* reasons that could (or even should) affect ones choice, made as a counterclaim to the above "it's entirely subjective", and the post was polite its tone.
Is Amiga.org turning into what AW.net was a decade ago, where threads get locked/removed, posts disappear etc in a subjective manner in order to favor a certain group of people's economical interests?
While I have no idea what you wrote, I stand completely by its being subjective.
To some people, MS-DOS is better than Windows 7, yet on paper Windows 7 is clearly superior.
Horses for courses, and all that.
It is subjective, and the very fact that I prefer using AmigaOS and you prefer using MorphOS is proof of that (and I have a Peg II which dualboots).
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@takemehomegrandma
Since I remember a bit what was written, here it is (i hope i won't be deleted as well :))
- Runs on much cheaper, much faster hardware.
- Faster by design in several areas (3D, JIT, USB, ...).
- Integration and evolution well known standards (CGX, MUI4, Poseidon, ...).
- Better compatibility be it with 68k apps like Magellan, Golded6 or PowerUp/WarpOS/Warp3D apps/games (including Hyperion games that run better on MorphOS than on OS4, which is somewhat ironic).
That's all i remember, feel free to complete. :)
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It is subjective
Given that you have already ruled out the classic HW and/or UAE, then you are looking for a NG solution. Given that you have also ruled out AROS, then the choice is between OS4 and MorphOS, and *there are* some perfectly valid objective points of measurements to help you make up your mind (I think Fab managed to relay what I wrote pretty accurate, don’t remember exactly though).
MorphOS *is* faster, it *does* have all the preferred by most and most widely spread Amiga standards integrated and in modern versions, it *does* have a much lower system cost, it *does* run on easily obtainable mainstream hardware with totally OK bang/buck ratio, it *does* have the best Amiga compatibility, it *does* have the most and the best features as a whole – the desktop, the shell, 3D, JIT, etc, etc.
These are objective, measurable, comparable facts. Nothing subjective about it at all. You can make speed benchmarking charts, you can write feature charts, you can make compatibility comparison charts, you can make price comparison charts, and you can put them (the OS4 and MorphOS charts respectively) side by side, in black on white, and then you can draw your conclusions from that.
*OR* one can do as *You* did, and completely discard even the thought of objective, rational comparisons with a simple "it’s entirely subjective" one-liner sentence (making some weird analogy to MS-DOS vs. Windows 7 on top of that (!!!)) – Well, of course you are *totally free* to "want" the slowest system, the solution with the second class left-over Amiga standards, tied to insanely priced low volume hardware, worse Amiga compatibility, worse desktop experience, worse shell experience, worse 3D, worse JIT, etc, etc. But in my book, that is *not rational*, and it's like saying ”I prefer coal power plants instead of power plants that doesn't contribute to the grow house effect, because that's how I want it, and it's entirely subjective anyway”, ”I like slow, expensive, dangerous, polluting cars with no second hand value instead of fast, cheap, safe and environment friendly cars with a high second hand value, because that's how I want it, and it's entirely subjective anyway”, ”I prefer war instead of peace, because that's how I want it, and it's entirely subjective anyway”, etc, etc.
In that sense *everything* can be ”entirely subjective”! But that doesn’t take away the fact that *purely objectively* speaking, using rational comparisons, peace *is* better than war, safe and clean cars *are* better than unsafe polluting cars, and non-polluting power plants *are* better to the environment than coal power plants.
If you would *actually do* an objective comparison between the current best OS4/MorphOS systems, and come to the conclusion that no matter MorphOS's superiority when it comes to price/performance/specs/compatibility (which is the only conceivable outcome) you simply want the OS4 one anyway, *THEN* we are probably talking about a decision made on subjective factors, like taste, emotions, your need of belonging to a certain group, or whatever, instead of purely objective factors based on verifiable facts. But that doesn't say it's impossible to do objective comparisons between OS4 and MorphOS, it only say that *YOU* chose *not* to!
It's *NOT* "entirely subjective" to everyone!
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Internet Debate Handbook, guideline #7: You are objective and rational. Therefore, anybody who disagrees with you is not.
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MorphOS does have several objective advantages when compared to OS4 and that is mostly why I chose to use it, but I agree with Spirantho that many/most OS4 users choose OS4 for subjective reasons, which may be why he feels the choice to use one or the other is entirely subjective. For him, it is. For us the choice is not subjective.
You can probably ask all of the OS4 and MorphOS users and will get similar answers, if they will admit it. Arguing if the decision to use OS4 or MorphOS is, or should be subjective or objective is a waste of time.
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It's *NOT* "entirely subjective" to everyone!
So it is subjective to some people then?
Sounds pretty subjective to me....
By your statements Windows is much better than MorphOS too, so why are you using it?
We're all here because we like using our chosen Amiga-like OS, and the reasoning for this choice is entirely subjective.
Remember, to the outside world, they can't understand why you're using MorphOS when they're using what are - on paper - much better OSes.
As I said, it is entirely up to the user which is "better", and that's subjective.
That's my final statement on the matter, not getting drawn into a futile war of words.
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Internet Debate Handbook, guideline #7: You are objective and rational. Therefore, anybody who disagrees with you is not.
There is nothing subjective about digits printed in black on white; a 1 is a 1, a 2 is a 2. You don't disagree: "I really think 2 is 7, it's all subjective".
Speed/performance is one example of such a *measurable* variable you can use in an objective comparison. In computer terms, good performance is generally considered a good thing, not a bad thing (well, maybe this isn't true among MS-DOS fans in 2011, I wouldn't know :lol:). So this is *not* about agreeing or disagreeing, *not* about taste or preference. Not "which is the most beautiful color?". Not at all. Good performance is good, worse performance on the very same hardware is worse. Pure, Simple.
There are other variables that are equally measurable. "Price" is one. "List of Amiga applications that works" is another.
You could list all Workbench's features, one by one, in one column of a chart. You could then list Ambient's in a column next to it. You would see that Ambient will match the one of Workbench, but when the Workbench feature list will end, then Ambient's list continue to go on, and on.
I don't mind people liking their OS4 systems, for whatever reasons. But *I do* mind when they say "but when it comes down to it it's entirely subjective". When it comes down to it, I am using MorphOS instead of OS4 simply because MorphOS is the best performing, most backwards compatible, most feature complete Amiga NG options there is! Nothing subjective about it! *I DO*have subjective reasons to *not* using OS4 as well, like my disgust against Ben Hermans&Co, their views that it's OK to mix Linux concepts in Amiga, their view of quality of their releases, and the negative effect I feel they have had on the Amiga in general, but that's a different matter altogether, because *THEN* we are talking about subjective matters (taste, opinions, etc), because I know there are people who actually *do* like Hyperion, their views of how an "Amiga OS" should be done, etc. In that case we are talking about issues of a level like "what flower smells the best?", "what is the tastiest food?", etc (i.e. *SUBJECTIVE* things), and not Quake 3's framerate on MorphOS vs. OS4 on exactly the same Pegasos2 machine (for example).
See?
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So it is subjective to some people then?
Sounds pretty subjective to me....
By your statements Windows is much better than MorphOS too, so why are you using it?
We're all here because we like using our chosen Amiga-like OS, and the reasoning for this choice is entirely subjective.
Remember, to the outside world, they can't understand why you're using MorphOS when they're using what are - on paper - much better OSes.
As I said, it is entirely up to the user which is "better", and that's subjective.
That's my final statement on the matter, not getting drawn into a futile war of words.
For anyone to survive and expand their horizons, I think they would be wise to focus on new users who are unfamiliar with anything Amiga.
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=59581
^^That's where the discussion could be and that's where the comparisons could be drawn.
btw-Morphzone is having a discussion about this.
MorphOS promotion and support team (http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=8102&forum=3)
Survival depends on getting out of the existing community, not fighting for nor trading the dwindling users within it.
#6
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There is nothing subjective about digits printed in black on white; a 1 is a 1, a 2 is a 2. You don't disagree: "I really think 2 is 7, it's all subjective".
Math is math is math, yes. But it's a general truth that benchmarks are a guideline at best; they depend on a wide variety of factors and thus mean different things to different people with different requirements. Remember what people say Mark Twain said but Twain said Benjamin Disraeli said but Disraeli may not actually have said about "lies, damned lies, and statistics."
None of which has anything to do with my point, which is that using "it's objectively better!" as a go-to argument for OS flamewars is naive. People pick their OSes for many reasons other than strict performance, and there's nothing wrong with that.
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@amigadave
Yes indeed. There are actually no technological, no economical, no rational reasons whatsoever to use OS4 instead of MorphOS. The only reason I can think of is: "OS4 is teh reeel!!1!!", in other words, the good old Amiga(TM) brand loyalty. Of course the answer becomes "it's all subjective which is best" when there are *no* objective arguments that supports your own decision or choice. AROS and MorphOS users on the other hand has freed themselves of the brand loyalty (often a long time ago already), that's no longer of any importance, that's not why we are here. Maybe that makes it easier to compare the merits of the three Amiga NG OS's in a more objective way, not having to resort to subjective "arguments"? And in my case, it also makes it a bit annoying when any objective arguments are constantly being disposed by the same subjective arguments, time after time. Sure, taste can (and will) play a part (as I said in the post above, it surely has played a part for me in my choice of NG OS), but there is no need to "feel" which OS has the most and best merits! That can easily be *measured*! :)
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@takemehomegrandma
Yes indeed. There are actually no technological, no economical, no rational reasons whatsoever to use OS4 instead of MorphOS.
You keep saying this, but lets look at things objectively then:
* The MorphOS community is way less active than the AmigaOS 4.x community
* There aren't more MorphOS users than AmigaOS 4.x users
* AmigaOS 4.x actually being AmigaOS, MorphOS is unknown
I have a bonus one for you as well:
* You still making too much noise, making people move on from the larger amiga-community
BTW, I just love your rhetorics when you're upset... Love it!
Regards,
Joachim Birging
EDIT:
Spelling!
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@takemehomegrandma
There are both objective and subjective elements here, and much as you would like to, you cannot rule out the subjective side of it. Nobody's arguing with the objective merits of MorphOS, but some people prefer the feel of OS4 which is why you shouldn't try to rule it out for new users. And, if you're going to stick purely to objective reasoning, as someone else asked, why are you using MorphOS when you could just use Windows? Objectively speaking, Windows kicks the living daylights out of MorphOS and OS4 combined on pretty much every metric you listed.
To bring up the obligatory car analogy, lots of people think I'm nuts for driving the car I drive. There are so many cars I could've bought which would have lower tax, lower emissions, better fuel economy, better reliability, better acceleration and top speed and so on. But they don't feel like my car. You get waaay too wound up on this subject, and whether you mean it or not, it looks like you're making people out to be idiots for picking OS4 over MorphOS, and carrying on the same argument doesn't help you one bit.
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Math is math is math, yes. But it's a general truth that benchmarks are a guideline at best; they depend on a wide variety of factors and thus mean different things to different people with different requirements. Remember what people say Mark Twain said but Twain said Benjamin Disraeli said but Disraeli may not actually have said about "lies, damned lies, and statistics."
So slow performance is actually fast? A high price is actually low? A short feature list is actually longer than a long?
Of course you can *prefer* slower performance, higher prices, and shorter feature lists, etc, only because "it's teh reel!!1!!" (or for whatever other subjective reason). I know that, we see that daily here on Amiga.org and elsewhere. Then we are talking about subjective arguments as ground for your decisions, like feelings, emotions, etc. But that doesn't make objective arguments non-existent. It only makes them disregarded.
None of which has anything to do with my point, which is that using "it's objectively better!" as a go-to argument for OS flamewars is naive. People pick their OSes for many reasons other than strict performance, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Of course, and I am one of them. But that doesn't mean that no objective arguments exists, or that you should discard them. As an example, my own reasons to use MorphOS instead of OS4 is:
1. Because MorphOS *does have* better performance, *it has* a lower price, *it has* a more extensive feature list, *it has* better Amiga compatibility, etc, of the two.
2. AND *my opinion* of the Hyperion crew is that they are a band of bandits, and *I feel* that being "official" is of no importance (and I even don't agree with that)
What's listed under point 1 was objective (and really can't be argued with, since it's all measurable), point 2 was subjective (and is argued all the time).
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So slow performance is actually fast? A high price is actually low? A short feature list is actually longer than a long?
Of course you can *prefer* slower performance, higher prices, and shorter feature lists, etc, only because "it's teh reel!!1!!" (or for whatever other subjective reason). I know that, we see that daily here on Amiga.org and elsewhere. Then we are talking about subjective arguments as ground for your decisions, like feelings, emotions, etc. But that doesn't make objective arguments non-existent. It only makes them disregarded.
Of course, and I am one of them. But that doesn't mean that no objective arguments exists, or that you should discard them. As an example, my own reasons to use MorphOS instead of OS4 is:
1. Because MorphOS *does have* better performance, *it has* a lower price, *it has* a more extensive feature list, *it has* better Amiga compatibility, etc, of the two.
2. AND *my opinion* of the Hyperion crew is that they are a band of bandits, and *I feel* that being "official" is of no importance (and I even don't agree with that)
What's listed under point 1 was objective (and really can't be argued with, since it's all measurable), point 2 was subjective (and is argued all the time).
That's odd that on one hand you believe in objective vs subjective when comparing the operating systems, but when it comes to a court decision, which would be likely called factually objective by said court, you take the reverse stand and go with your *subjective* feelings. You don't see the basis of how you form your opinions as being contrary?
"But that doesn't make objective arguments non-existent. It only makes them disregarded."
#6
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Of course, and I am one of them. But that doesn't mean that no objective arguments exists, or that you should discard them. As an example, my own reasons to use MorphOS instead of OS4 is:
1. Because MorphOS *does have* better performance, *it has* a lower price, *it has* a more extensive feature list, *it has* better Amiga compatibility, etc, of the two.
2. AND *my opinion* of the Hyperion crew is that they are a band of bandits, and *I feel* that being "official" is of no importance (and I even don't agree with that)
Of course I don't mean that factual arguments are valueless; they're perfectly relevant and solid arguments, assuming you've done your homework in gathering and analyzing the data. I just mean that they're not the be-all/end-all of OS choice, so acting as if "it performs better, end of story" is a discussion-ender is naive.
(And I'm certainly with you on point #2.)
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You still making too much noise, making people move on from the larger amiga-community
as a (until recently) outsider, i'd have to agree. i considered morphOS in the beginning due to the low cost of entry, but the biggest turn-off -- by far -- was the community. the way certain morphOS users, and at least one developer, behaved on the forums was a huge negative. i've since used morphOS in the flesh a few times, and, while very performant, just wasn't enjoyable to use (for me). but people need to try it and make up their own minds.
the best approach is the one taken by amigadave: sane, rational, understanding, and helpful. morphOS isn't my cup of tea for any number of reasons, but it's a perfectly good choice for folks entering and/or returning to the amiga world and i still have an interest in it. if the OP was in the northeastern US, i would have been happy to travel and allow him to play on my SAM and on my old power G4 (which still has MOS 2.7 installed on it) so he could check out amigaOS and morphOS and make up his own mind. both are excellent choices.
-- eliyahu
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You keep saying this, but lets look at things objectively then:
* The MorphOS community is way less active than the AmigaOS 4.x community
* There aren't more MorphOS users than AmigaOS 4.x users
* AmigaOS 4.x actually being AmigaOS, MorphOS is unknown
I don't really understand the point you are trying to make in the context of this thread. Seems a bit off topic, hence almost inflammatory. Anyway, it could very well be that the MorphOS community could be smaller than the OS4 community. I don't have any exact numbers, but the poll (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=59581) suggests they are about the same size (at least on this site), and that they even together is half the size of the real Amiga (that is: the classic in various shapes and forms). But for such a small platform, I must say it seems that MorphOS has its fair share of competent and active developers, making *real* Amiga applications and not just Linux recompiles for an .so environment. And no, MorphOS isn't really unknown. Sure it's small, limited niche OS, but so is OS4. And in the big world, outside this (and "your") forum, Amiga can hardly be categorized as a well-known system/brand in 2011. Two decades of water under the bridges has played its course.
I have a bonus one for you as well:
* You still making too much noise, making people move on from the larger amiga-community
There has always been a lot of noise (from many entities, including Hyperion and its followers), but *noise* isn't what making people moving away from the larger Amiga community. The lack of an obvious and sustainable future and road-map post PPC is (no sign of long term), the lack of progress is (no sign of mid-term), the lack of realistic products is (no sign of short-term). And no - a €2,500 computer with 2007 level laptop performance running an OS of OS4.1.3's quality is no solution. It could even have made it worse or hastened the process, by making the above more obvious and very difficult to miss.
The retro fans shouldn't care though! :)
BTW, I just love your rhetorics when you're upset... Love it!
While glad of being of amusement to you, I must tell you that I'm not really upset at all, rather the opposite, I'm in a very good mood! ;)
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@takemehomegrandma
There are both objective and subjective elements here, and much as you would like to, you cannot rule out the subjective side of it.
Of course not, and I don't! :)
Nobody's arguing with the objective merits of MorphOS
Yes, by saying that "when it comes down to it it's entirely subjective".
It isn't.
That's my whole point! :)
but some people prefer the feel of OS4 which is why you shouldn't try to rule it out for new users.
I think it would be wrong to "indoctrinate" new users in the brand-religion mentality that is finally beginning to soften up. Suppressing objective arguments and comparisons in favor of highly subjective ones will do just that.
If you want to highlight OS4's merits, do so by using objective comparisons and arguments. Like how cheap and easy it is (pun intended, since this (in comparison to OS4) is another one of MorphOS's benefits) for a new user to try it out in order to see if it really is anything for them.
And, if you're going to stick purely to objective reasoning, as someone else asked, why are you using MorphOS when you could just use Windows? Objectively speaking, Windows kicks the living daylights out of MorphOS and OS4 combined on pretty much every metric you listed.
I carefully avoided replying to a similar question above, because it's off topic and irrelevant in this context. We are talking about OS4 and MorphOS (not even AROS really). But OK, to answer your question - *I DO* use Windows. In fact, I'm typing this on a Win7 box. I also run Ubuntu on two machines of mine. But none of them are the best Amiga NG solution! That's why I use MorphOS! :)
To bring up the obligatory car analogy
I generally only replies to "Cola" analogies... ;)
lots of people think I'm nuts for driving the car I drive.
Then you probably are! ;)
:pint:
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Takemehomegrandma, you're the worst liability the "blue camp" has ever had. MAN, I hope you have no official ties to MorphOS...
While the people behind MOS bust their asses making a better product, you just spout rhetoric and "facts" to try and sway people to the "one true calling". It's horse**** in this day and age, dividing the camps like this.
3 people on A.org have told me so far they have avoided MOS entirely due to your Dammy-like antics. Feel good to know you are costing them sales, lol?
MOS is a great product. Let it speak for itself without the trolling. I've seen Jehovah's Witnesses easier to deal with than you are.
To those looking at a NG Amiga: MOS is great, and the low cost of HW and demo version of the OS is just super. OS4 fans: I use it myself, and enjoy it. Explore your options and don't listen to the clownshow.
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@takemehomegrandma
I don't really understand the point you are trying to make in the context of this thread. Seems a bit off topic, hence almost inflammatory. Anyway, it could very well be that the MorphOS community could be smaller than the OS4 community. I don't have any exact numbers, but the poll (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=59581) suggests they are about the same size (at least on this site), and that they even together is half the size of the real Amiga (that is: the classic in various shapes and forms). But for such a small platform, I must say it seems that MorphOS has its fair share of competent and active developers, making *real* Amiga applications and not just Linux recompiles for an .so environment. And no, MorphOS isn't really unknown. Sure it's small, limited niche OS, but so is OS4. And in the big world, outside this (and "your") forum, Amiga can hardly be categorized as a well-known system/brand in 2011. Two decades of water under the bridges has played its course.
No, those are objective truths, exactly what you wanted. What you bring up in response just shows your own ignorance on the matter. Of course my post was inflammatory, you didn't agree with it, yet I didn't call anyone bandits? Funny that.
About size, my point was that despite MorphOS being:
MorphOS *is* faster, it *does* have all the preferred by most and most widely spread Amiga standards integrated and in modern versions, it *does* have a much lower system cost, it *does* run on easily obtainable mainstream hardware with totally OK bang/buck ratio, it *does* have the best Amiga compatibility, it *does* have the most and the best features as a whole – the desktop, the shell, 3D, JIT, etc, etc.
It does still not have a bigger userbase than the clearly inferior AmigaOS 4.x. What does that tell you? Yet you go on with this - "There are actually no technological, no economical, no rational reasons whatsoever to use OS4 instead of MorphOS." - Are you really serious? No one choses AmigaOS 4.x, MorphOS or AROS based on technical merit. No one. There's an emotional bond to it. Something your own posts clearly show, yet you're trying to argue that is not the case. Then you have the stomach to chose when it is allowed to be subjective or objective, all depending on what suits you?
Real Amiga applications? How long since you tried AmigaOS 4.x? I tried MorphOS once in 2005, I crashed it after 5 seconds. Obviously MorphOS still suck, right? And again, this is a subjective view, is it not?
MorphOS is unknown, AmigaOS is not. While AmigaOS 4.x might be a niche market, it is still AmigaOS, hence well known. An objective comparison between the two would not be fair at all. Asking people if they know AmigaOS and then if they know MorphOS would be terribly one sided, I imagine.
Yes, a lot of water under the bridge, yet the same old arguments. Things change, you know, yet you keep ignoring this.
There has always been a lot of noise (from many entities, including Hyperion and its followers), but *noise* isn't what making people moving away from the larger Amiga community. The lack of an obvious and sustainable future and road-map post PPC is (no sign of long term), the lack of progress is (no sign of mid-term), the lack of realistic products is (no sign of short-term). And no - a €2,500 computer with 2007 level laptop performance running an OS of OS4.1.3's quality is no solution. It could even have made it worse or hastened the process, by making the above more obvious and very difficult to miss.
This is just brilliant, you've just made all your arguments for chosing MorphOS instead of AmigaOS 4.x invalid, because with this said we should all move on to x86. So with this last paragraph in mind, do you agree on that objectivity does not matter much when chosing your Amiga-like operating system? And in doing so acknowledge that you're jumping between objective and subjective truths as it suits you?
Regards,
Joachim Birging
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That's odd that on one hand you believe in objective vs subjective when comparing the operating systems, but when it comes to a court decision, which would be likely called factually objective by said court, you take the reverse stand and go with your *subjective* feelings. You don't see the basis of how you form your opinions as being contrary?
I'm sorry if I have lead you to believe that I would think the settlement between Amiga Inc and Hyperion would be fake/not real or whatever. I don't, I'm pretty convinced it's there alright.
Why I put it among my "subjective" reasons to why I use MorphOS instead of OS4, is because I don't *feel* (a subjective thing) that this is of any importance to me. And the "I even don't agree with that" (also a subjective thing) comes from the way Hyperion reached this so called "agreement". I feel that it wasn't really an agreement in its true sense, more like a situation where Hyperion said to the rightful Amiga IP owner: "If you don't give me this, I'll kill you". Amiga Inc "agreed" to granting Hyperion their current rights in the same way as a lonely woman in a dark park agrees to having sex with a man with a knife and a mask on his face in exchange for her continued life on this planet. A true, sound agreement is where *both* parties walks away smiling after closing it. I don't think Amiga Inc's owner smiled when he walked away.
The thing becomes even more ironic when you look back on what Ben Hermans (of Hyperion) said (http://www.biclodon.com/misc/amigafarm/benhermans/) in his lie-campaign about MorphOS some years ago:
(Just replace "the MorphOS team" with "Hyperion", and it will be really funny)
"The failure of Amiga Inc and the MorphOS team to come to terms is in part due to the fact that Amiga wants to assert their ownership and intellectual property rights over the Amiga OS (for which they paid 4.5 M USD) whilst the MorphOS team happily continues to refute those claims"
After this, the same man "took his walk in the park" to get what he felt he was entitled to.
So no, I don't *feel* OS4 to be truly official by grant from the IP owner. I know that it is, objectively speaking. But I do hope it's only temporary, until Amiga (current or future owners) can find a way to correct this by putting things right again. And I do think they want to. Don't you?