Amiga.org
Operating System Specific Discussions => Amiga OS => Amiga OS 4.x (future) Hardware Compatibility Discussions => Topic started by: jorkany on October 24, 2011, 01:46:37 PM
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Talking about Xena, Xorro, and SMP demonstrations on the X1000. Any video footage, pictures or write-ups on demonstrations of "The Power of X"? Did any scientific users take note?
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what about getting the amigaos4.x finished first... after that i have no doubt we will see more of the x you talk about.
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None at all?
Wow, over a year and a half even I would have expected something, even if it was just a board plugged into the Xorro slot with blinking LEDs. I guess everyone is too busy chasing the new carrot to care.
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None at all?
Wow, over a year and a half even I would have expected something, even if it was just a board plugged into the Xorro slot with blinking LEDs. I guess everyone is too busy chasing the new carrot to care.
You clearly haven't been taking your XMOS pills. Let me get you a fix here:
http://www.amigans.net/modules/xforum/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4914&forum=4
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You clearly haven't been taking your XMOS pills. Let me get you a fix here:
http://www.amigans.net/modules/xforum/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4914&forum=4
Ah, the old carrot tied to a new stick! Now that's innovation!
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@Piru
You've already confirmed Morphos won't be on the X1000.
I understand details on the new OS4 netbook are scant, but in principle would you be in favour of producing Morphos port for it?
If it makes the answer any easier lets assume the netbook sells between 1000-2000 units rather than a couple of hundred.
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@Piru
You've already confirmed Morphos won't be on the X1000.
I understand details on the new OS4 netbook are scant, but in principle would you be in favour of producing Morphos port for it?
If it makes the answer any easier lets assume the netbook sells between 1000-2000 units rather than a couple of hundred.
If MorphOS team wanted to support a e300/400MHz netbook, they could have done so with the Limebook Z9.
But since Mac support was added virtually noboday gave a crap about an e300/400 any more. MorphOS will soon support a G4 1.67GHz laptop - what will an even more expensive e300/400 netbook offer as benefit?
Not sayig an e300/400 wouldn't make no sense at all (I still have a business proposal based ona chip with that core), but it is a thing of priorities. And putting the priority to a G4 1.67 GHz instead to a G2(e300)/400 seems clever and rational to me.
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I have to agree with zylsea; I can't really see MOS devs seeing any tangible value in supporting it as they already support hardware that enables users to get into it without having to spend too much.
It's a different story for OS4, where a lower cost device that allows people to use it for less outlay should make quite a difference.
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If MorphOS team wanted to support a e300/400MHz netbook, they could have done so with the Limebook Z9.
But since Mac support was added virtually noboday gave a crap about an e300/400 any more. MorphOS will soon support a G4 1.67GHz laptop - what will an even more expensive e300/400 netbook offer as benefit?
Not sayig an e300/400 wouldn't make no sense at all (I still have a business proposal based ona chip with that core), but it is a thing of priorities. And putting the priority to a G4 1.67 GHz instead to a G2(e300)/400 seems clever and rational to me.
Er, I didn't suggest they should prioritise this netbook (which we won't see for many months anyway) over their current projects.
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I have to agree with zylsea; I can't really see MOS devs seeing any tangible value in supporting it as they already support hardware that enables users to get into it without having to spend too much.
It's a different story for OS4, where a lower cost device that allows people to use it for less outlay should make quite a difference.
I of course see your point of view, however, I believe there is a market there to be exploited.
ie. There are many people (me included) who do not want to buy 2nd hand apple hardware just to try out Morphos. There are also many people who would like to have OS4 and Morphos run together on more than just the PegII.
If this netbook materialises, and I believe it will, I will 100% buy it. Doesn't mean I only want to run OS4 on it.
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Talking about Xena, Xorro, and SMP demonstrations on the X1000. Any video footage, pictures or write-ups on demonstrations of "The Power of X"? Did any scientific users take note?
there wasn't any discussion of xena/xorro in the presentations, no. however a few of us talked with trevor and steve at the hyperion table about it. i also was able to review the documentation supplied the beta testers which gave me the mechanical spec i needed for xorro and the pin mappings of the connections between pins on the XMOS chip and the GPIO pins on the PA6T. we also discussed application ideas as well.
multi-core support in OS4 was mentioned, although there was no OS4.2 build to try. steve and trevor confirmed the 'first contact' edition shipping later this year will only support core0. OS4.2 should follow soon thereafter supporting the second core.
once RobertB and others are able to post video, you can review them for more ammo, er, info. ;)
-- eliyahu
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@Piru
You've already confirmed Morphos won't be on the X1000.
I understand details on the new OS4 netbook are scant, but in principle would you be in favour of producing Morphos port for it?
If it makes the answer any easier lets assume the netbook sells between 1000-2000 units rather than a couple of hundred.
Dont be silly they just want bitch and complain and have divsion like always
maybe they bring out Lp record with bonus remix hehe
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Looks like I am on ignore.
Does anyone else close to Morphos development know if this netbook could become a target platform?
Seems like a good opportunity to make Morphos even more efficient.
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@Piru
...in principle would you be in favour of producing Morphos port for it?
No, I wouldn't. I think we have plenty of better targets to port for, and they're not 400MHz SIMDless systems with fixed tiny storage capacity. Also, the system doesn't have cache coherency (http://www.powerdeveloper.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=11600#11600), something which MorphOS requires.
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Given that it's a year and a half late and still doesn't support the second core, how long will it take to support a completely foreign non-floating point XMOS as something other than program it and allow it function remotely?
[youtube]Gpf5jBhjapo[/youtube]
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No, I wouldn't. I think we have plenty of better targets to port for, and they're not 400MHz SIMDless systems with fixed tiny storage capacity.
Ok, fair enough. Thanks for the reply.
It is a fair point about the fixed storage. I am hoping it will be possible to attach external USB hard drives, and possibly even boot from them. I don't have much of a music collection, but even that exceeds 8Gb.
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there wasn't any discussion of xena/xorro in the presentations, no. however a few of us talked with trevor and steve at the hyperion table about it. i also was able to review the documentation supplied the beta testers which gave me the mechanical spec i needed for xorro and the pin mappings of the connections between pins on the XMOS chip and the GPIO pins on the PA6T. we also discussed application ideas as well.
multi-core support in OS4 was mentioned, although there was no OS4.2 build to try. steve and trevor confirmed the 'first contact' edition shipping later this year will only support core0. OS4.2 should follow soon thereafter supporting the second core.
once RobertB and others are able to post video, you can review them for more ammo, er, info. ;)
-- eliyahu
Thanks for the info!
By the way, you mentioned at one time that a couple of your comrades were interested in buying the X1000 because of the PA6T. Are they getting the Special Editions or waiting?
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Thanks for the info!
By the way, you mentioned at one time that a couple of your comrades were interested in buying the X1000 because of the PA6T. Are they getting the Special Editions or waiting?
i haven't talked to them since i got back from amiwest -- been a little busy with work; but at least one of them will purchase it regardless of price. none of them are interested in it as an 'amiga' but rather for the novelty factor and/or having something at home they can use for compile jobs without borrowing time on the office big-box POWER6 systems. :)
-- eliyahu
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This isn't looking so good. Something wrong with the onboard XMOS?
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=34475&forum=33&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#634850
Xmos, not much talk of this, still in development? Accessible in Os4 or Linux? - Still in the works. Varisys on optional low cost Xorro card. Details to be provided.
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This isn't looking so good. Something wrong with the onboard XMOS?
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=34475&forum=33&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#634850
I think the unbelievably daft idea there is that the current Sam4x0 users would want to have XMOS as well...
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This isn't looking so good. Something wrong with the onboard XMOS?
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=34475&forum=33&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#634850
there's nothing wrong with the XMOS controller on the board. there are XMOS-related add-ons for the X1000 and other OS4 systems planned -- that's what trevor is referring to.
-- eliyahu
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I think the unbelievably daft idea there is that the current Sam4x0 users would want to have XMOS as well...
i think it's unbelievably daft that you pop up in nearly every OS4 thread on this board with your arrogant, transparent trolling. don't you have anything else better to do? i would wager you have more OS4-related posts on this board than ones related to MOS. it comes off as obsessive and pathetic.
oh, and as usual, you're full of it. i would be interested in a PCI-hosted XMOS controller with as much of the PCB planar used as a breadboard as is possible.
-- eliyahu
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I think AOS 4 users interested Xcore processors should follow Steven Solie's advice and purchase one of the many inexpensive kits for sale on the Xmos website.
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"The xmos chip, Hahah, what's that about? What can I do with it, when is going to eb avaiable as an add on, and so on. You can buy an Xmos chip direct from Xmos if you want to. It comes on a PCI card and you can plug it into anything you want to." -- Steven Solie
(though I think he meant to say "usb", hard to tell though, it seems he has no idea what's going on in Xmos land)
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I think AOS 4 users interested Xcore processors should follow Steven Solie's advice and purchase one of the many inexpensive kits for sale on the Xmos website.
i would agree with that, actually. the developer kits are inexpensive and people can start prototyping right away. it's also quite a bit less expensive than the X1000. :)
i honestly don't imagine many folks in the extant amiga community would be interested in 'xena' as a selling point for the X1000 -- not without one or two shipping application examples in any case. that said the dedicated I/O to a standard PCIe mechanical connector as well as access to the PA6T GPIO lines are a nice addition. i actually am planning on using this with my X1000 to build an HF receiver (RF stage, A/D conversion, etc. on PCB attached via the 'xorro' connector, SDR via the 'xena') although i'd only both writing control software for linux.
but, hey, let's see if anyone actually uses it for something interesting when it ships out. you never know what some people might have planned. :)
"The xmos chip, Hahah, what's that about? What can I do with it, when is going to eb avaiable as an add on, and so on. You can buy an Xmos chip direct from Xmos if you want to. It comes on a PCI card and you can plug it into anything you want to." -- Steven Solie
(though I think he meant to say "usb", hard to tell though, it seems he has no idea what's going on in Xmos land)
yeah, i remember that comment, too. i figure it was a slip of the tongue.
-- eliyahu
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Still zero evidence this Xena/XMOS stuff will ever find a use, whether it be on board or via an add on card.
I fail to see what it would do for me when the OS itself doesn't even have the bare essentials like a stable, modern web browser. I think people figure it is a vast exaggeration in regards to the sorry state of available software for these machines, but it's absolutely terrible, and I personally have been dealing with it for THREE years.
I'll take the ability to reliably check my GMail inbox on my SAM far before some wacky XMOS solution.
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"The xmos chip, Hahah, what's that about? What can I do with it, when is going to eb avaiable as an add on, and so on. You can buy an Xmos chip direct from Xmos if you want to. It comes on a PCI card and you can plug it into anything you want to." -- Steven Solie
(though I think he meant to say "usb", hard to tell though, it seems he has no idea what's going on in Xmos land)
Funny. Especially since when the "What is X" hype was around the suggestion to just use a cheap usb kit was heresy or at least ignorance or - the new stigma - "nay saying"!
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the dedicated I/O to a standard PCIe mechanical connector as well as access to the PA6T GPIO lines are a nice addition. i actually am planning on using this with my X1000 to build an HF receiver (RF stage, A/D conversion, etc. on PCB attached via the 'xorro' connector, SDR via the 'xena')
I'd be too scared to plug my own PCB to a $3000+ system to be honest. Especially when any damage resulting from the custom HW would most certainly be outside of warranty repairs.
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I'd be too scared to plug my own PCB to a $3000+ system to be honest. Especially when any damage resulting from the custom HW would most certainly be outside of warranty repairs.
that's a good point to other potential punters out there. i have access to a fairly extensive testfloor setup, so there plenty of electrical analysis and test will have been done prior to first 'plug.' but, yeah, i wouldn't think many end-users will design their own 'xorro' boards; if there ever are any, i imagine they'd come from vendors.
all the more reason for folks interested in 'dipping their toes' into the XMOS waters to start with one of the USB-hosted development kits along with XMOS' IDE running on their PC. if it's still something they'd want to pursue on their X1000 thereafter, so much the better.
but a few of us -- especially those of us in hardware engineering -- have an interest in this. i think even @koft had a passing interest in XMOS. i'd love for folks to discuss kit they've actually produced. i'm restricted by confidentiality agreements on talking about the two projects where i've actually used xcores, so the HF receiver setup would be my first private project. it's just one of those 'because you can' things.
the whole 'power of X' thing always seemed more marketing than anything else to me when A-EON unveiled the X1000 last year: i don't know if many people will find it a genuine value-add beyond the geek cred its presence lends to the system generally. but there's real potential there, and a cool-factor. and at $3000USD, you'd want to be something 'different' anyway.
as an off-topic item, i do have to congratulate you and the MOS development team on the build of MOS v3.0 i saw running at amiwest this year. very, very impressive. :)
-- eliyahu
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Seems like they'dve done better to market it as a sort of successor to the BeBox's "geek port" than to try and sell it as some mysterious magic powering the system :/
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Still zero evidence this Xena/XMOS stuff will ever find a use, whether it be on board or via an add on card.
I assume that it's going to get as much use as the FPGA in the Sam.
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I suspect the military wanted it for some application they had, it was developed for a world where pounds and pence make no sense.
It does run Linux after all.
I assume that it's going to get as much use as the FPGA in the Sam.
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For those who might not have seen this video, AmiWest2011 walkthrough :-) and X will be showed as well.
http://www.skateman.nl/2011/12/01/amiwest-2011-walk-around-see-the-latest-amiga-developments/
All the credits go to Bill Borsari, maker of the video.
Skateman1972
http://www.skateman.nl
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@eliyahu
As a ham, i read your post about the hf receiver and was intrigued. Would you be using an already sdr like the rf-space ones, or will be one designed by you?. Sdr hardware has become interesting lately because in addition to the listening pleasure, you can, literally "see" what is happening in the band.
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For those who might not have seen this video, AmiWest2011 walkthrough :-) and X will be showed as well.
http://www.skateman.nl/2011/12/01/amiwest-2011-walk-around-see-the-latest-amiga-developments/
X1000 photo at the Amiwest Show 2011 --
http://www.dickestel.com/images/expo1022.jpg
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/
Southern California Commodore/Amiga Network
http://www.sccaners.org/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skateman1972 View Post
For those who might not have seen this video, AmiWest2011 walkthrough :-) and X will be showed as well.
http://www.skateman.nl/2011/12/01/am...-developments/
X1000 photo at the Amiwest Show 2011 --
http://www.dickestel.com/images/expo1022.jpg
Are you both being deliberately obtuse or did you just not understand the topic of the thread?
"X" is not the X1000 - it's the "Power of X", the answer to the question A-eon hyped on their website "What is X"? It refers to the components on the X1000 motherboard that are supposed to distinguish it from other OS4 supported hardware. The XMOS processor "Xena", the proprietary Xorro bus, and to a certain extent the multiple cores of the PA6T. None of these are supported by OS4 and have never been demonstrated.
It's funny how the OS4 community having found that these components are not supported by OS4 and will not be supported anytime soon are now trying to downplay "X", which was the primary selling point of the X1000 and the only thing which distinguishes it from your typical SAM or Eyetech A1. Basically the people who got hyped into this thing are paying $3000+ for a somewhat faster single CPU system - and that's it. For that kind of money the unique distinguishing features of the X1000 should be supported, nevermind the standard onboard components which are also not supported by OS4.
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And it's more funy, how people with old and crapy no more selling computers, (like Apple PPC) think are superior people, cause their CLONIC Amiga OS.
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And it's more funy, how people with old and crapy no more selling computers, (like Apple PPC) think are superior people, cause their CLONIC Amiga OS.
+1
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And it's more funy, how people with old and crapy no more selling computers, (like Apple PPC) think are superior people, cause their CLONIC Amiga OS.
My Amiga 500 is old and crappy but it is still the best Amiga ever. But thank you for insulting Amigans.
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My Amiga 500 is old and crappy but it is still the best Amiga ever. But thank you for insulting Amigans.
Well, hey, you can't be allowed to enjoy older, less-powerful computers! That would mean that you aren't necessarily insanely jealous of his cutting-edge commodity x86 machines, and we can't have that! How are the people with the newest toys supposed to get by in life if not everybody is miserably jealous of them!?
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Are you both being deliberately obtuse or did you just not understand the topic of the thread?
"X" is not the X1000 - it's the "Power of X", the answer to the question A-eon hyped on their website "What is X"? It refers to the components on the X1000 motherboard that are supposed to distinguish it from other OS4 supported hardware. The XMOS processor "Xena", the proprietary Xorro bus, and to a certain extent the multiple cores of the PA6T. None of these are supported by OS4 and have never been demonstrated.
It's funny how the OS4 community having found that these components are not supported by OS4 and will not be supported anytime soon are now trying to downplay "X", which was the primary selling point of the X1000 and the only thing which distinguishes it from your typical SAM or Eyetech A1. Basically the people who got hyped into this thing are paying $3000+ for a somewhat faster single CPU system - and that's it. For that kind of money the unique distinguishing features of the X1000 should be supported, nevermind the standard onboard components which are also not supported by OS4.
Ok, I'll bite. Where are your examples of the OS4 community downplaying "X"? Of course I'll need plenty of examples given that you reference the whole community. I'll need examples of them hyping it in the first place too.
Oh, and jorks accusing anyone of being obtuse is frankly ****ing hilarious. So cheers for the laugh at least jorks.
Another thing, is it your $3000 they are spending? If not, why should they care what you think?
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My Amiga 500 is old and crappy but it is still the best Amiga ever. But thank you for insulting Amigans.
He didn't insult amigans. I certainly took no offence. I don't think you should either given that I doubt very much you were the target of his ire.
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I wonder what is that comment about people with old and no more selling computers about.
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He clearly insulted morphos people, referring to the old macs.
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Check Google Earth, maybe the X is more visible from altitude?
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He clearly insulted morphos people, referring to the old macs.
Oh, well that makes it totally different then.
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Ok, I'll bite. Where are your examples of the OS4 community downplaying "X"? Of course I'll need plenty of examples given that you reference the whole community. I'll need examples of them hyping it in the first place too.
You're joking right?
Oh, and jorks accusing anyone of being obtuse is frankly ****ing hilarious. So cheers for the laugh at least jorks.
Doesn't mean he didn't have a good point and on this particular topic he's right on the money. Go look at the original marketing literature for the A1X1K and the years worth of people day dreaming all kinds of insane things about the "xena" and "xorro", all the bs about scientific computing and the like, then go watch guys ask steven solie questions about that during a recent conference and he stumbles, laughs about it and basically says he has no idea what it's for and he has no idea about whether or not there will be tools to even support it on AOS. The lead developer dude on the project has no idea what the "X" parts in the "Amiga One 'X' 1000" (the flagship machine) are for what the status of the dev tools are.
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And it's more funy, how people with old and crapy no more selling computers, (like Apple PPC) think are superior people, cause their CLONIC Amiga OS.
Maybe these old machines are more powerfull than your sam of your signature, its hard but true.
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Talking about Xena, Xorro, and SMP demonstrations on the X1000. Any video footage, pictures or write-ups on demonstrations of "The Power of X"? Did any scientific users take note?
It was clear to me from the beginning that the addition of the XMOS processor on the Nemo motherboard was just something for third party hardware developers to play with.
Where did you get your impression that A-Eon, or Hyperion would be doing any development that would take advantage of the XMOS technology? I must have missed that announcement.
I agree that the time to develop and release the X1000 system has been unfortunately long, but then no one involved in this project to my knowledge has any previous experience in creating a new motherboard from scratch that is intended only for the Amiga market, so it is not surprising to me that it has taken longer than any of them first expected.
Luckily for those interested in purchasing such a system, the wait is almost over. If you are really interested in the X1000 project, perhaps you should have purchased one of the beta test systems so you could have provided something constructive to the project. It is no too late to do so. You could purchase one of the "First Contact" X1000 systems and begin some productive work for it's ongoing development.
Or, you could continue your attempts to ridicule and embarrass the people who are really interested in this project, even though your comments do nothing but cause further conflict and hinder cooperation and progress.
It is your choice which path you tread. You can be a positive influence, a negative influence, or you can give up trying to influence in either direction and choose something that really interests you and spend your time and energy there.
There will be plenty of opportunities for you and others to be critical of what the X1000 and XMOS will be in the future when it is available and in use with the general public, but my suggestion is that you find something else to concentrate your energy on that you can be a positive influence on and give up your efforts to cast negative impressions on any projects. It is a waste of time, energy and bandwidth.
Life is short, make better use of it.
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To drive in the city I don't need a Ferrari, only a good car.
And a SAM it's the AMIGA, that I need.
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He clearly insulted morphos people, referring to the old macs.
Oh... then please stop dragging MorphOS into your AmigaOne civil war.