Amiga.org
Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Topic started by: Pyromania on October 18, 2011, 11:18:52 PM
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From: Hyperion Entertainment Blog (http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=546):
Just a quick note to say the development and testing teams are working on AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4 right now.
Several issues identified in Update 3 and earlier are being addressed thanks to direct customer feedback via Hyperion's support forum. A huge thanks to all those that have taken the time to register and post your bug reports! AmigaOS can only get better with direct customer feedback so keep it coming.
Along with the usual assortment of bug fixes, there may well be a surprise or two as well.
Steven Solie
AmigaOS Development Team Lead
Posted by Steven Solie
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Wow. How is this news, we are bug fixing there might be something new, no timescales.
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Wow. How is this news, we are bug fixing there might be something new, no timescales.
How is this not news? It is new to me, I wouldn't have known unless the information became available but now I do. Or is it only ok to release updates of AROS/MOS as news? To me there are no difference and it's all good reading. If you don't find it usefull/interesting, don't read it. Easy.
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Sorry what I should have said is that it is News , but the News is there is No news.
And I would say the same thing if it was an AROS or MorphOS announcement saying nothing as well.
But luckily for me MOS devs dont release News until there is some News
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From: Hyperion Entertainment Blog (http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=546):
Just a quick note to say the development and testing teams are working on AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4 right now.
Several issues identified in Update 3 and earlier are being addressed thanks to direct customer feedback via Hyperion's support forum. A huge thanks to all those that have taken the time to register and post your bug reports! AmigaOS can only get better with direct customer feedback so keep it coming.
Along with the usual assortment of bug fixes, there may well be a surprise or two as well.
Steven Solie
AmigaOS Development Team Lead
Posted by Steven Solie
A quick response to the catastrophic OS4.1.3 release, good news (*if* they get it right this time) for all the OS4 users that had to revert to OS4.1.2 to various degrees! :)
It will be interesting to see if they will require you to have OS4.1.1, OS41.1.2, OS4.1.3 installed in a row prior to installing OS4.1.4, or if they will release it as a stand-alone ISO this time. I think the latter would be beneficial in many ways...
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@JJ
OK, now I am confused ...
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@takemehomegrandma
Catastrophic? It seems that most people had no issues with update 3, and of those who did, most were down to messiness with 3rd party libraries etc. Given the small numbers of developers and testers involved, there's always a risk an update like that won't work with someone's setup, simply because there are so many different setups out there. We have issues in my job where we roll out an update to supposedly identical machines and it just fails on some. Not ideal, but that's how it goes.
I agree about the ISO though - a full, clean ISO would be nice as an option for those who want to or need to do a clean install. Personally, I'd like both to be available - an upgrade so I don't have to do any messing with ISOs and reconfiguring my machine after installation, and a full ISO, just in case I ever have a need for it...
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Wow. How is this news, we are bug fixing there might be something new, no timescales.
I regard it as news as I didn't think there was to be another update before 4.2.
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Sorry what I should have said is that it is News , but the News is there is No news.
And I would say the same thing if it was an AROS or MorphOS announcement saying nothing as well.
But luckily for me MOS devs dont release News until there is some News
Since they always delivers I don't see the problem at all? It's a good thing, now I know that there will be one more free update (at least) before 4.2 is released. That's what many has been wondering so I appreciate it rather than not knowing what to expect.
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@takemehomegrandma
Catastrophic? It seems that most people had no issues with update 3, and of those who did, most were down to messiness with 3rd party libraries etc.
*Many* users had *terrible* problems (and not "minor glitches", but *fundamental* ones) with the OS4.1.3 release. It was obviously not tested enough, and the following crisis management was terribly handled (blaming users, etc). I don't think there has ever been a single release of OS4.x.y without some user groups (defined by their hardware) not having big problems (for numerous reasons; flaky hardware, flaky testing, incompatible third party SW, whatever - reasons doesn't really matter), but OS4.1.3 must hold the record as the worst ever.
But let's forget that now! I'm sure they will clean it all up in OS4.1.4! :) When can it be expected?
(And yes, I know there are glitches in competing solutions as well, but never remotely as severe as we have seen in OS4 during the years)
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Since they always delivers I don't see the problem at all? It's a good thing, now I know that there will be one more free update (at least) before 4.2 is released. That's what many has been wondering so I appreciate it rather than not knowing what to expect.
I think the fact that they have charged for ANY of the updates to AOS4 is scandalous.
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Oh, and...
I agree about the ISO though - a full, clean ISO would be nice as an option for those who want to or need to do a clean install. Personally, I'd like both to be available - an upgrade so I don't have to do any messing with ISOs and reconfiguring my machine after installation, and a full ISO, just in case I ever have a need for it...
...there are *no reasons whatsoever* to why you shouldn't be able to upgrade from an ISO. Every single one of the public MorphOS releases (v1.0+) came packaged as an ISO, and it was only on one or two occasions (1.4->2.0?) that you were recommended to do a clean install instead of upgrading. The only downside (and it's really a minor one with today's Internet bandwidth standards) is that file size may be bigger with an ISO, but the upsides are so much bigger. Clean install or upgrade - it's a matter of how the installer is set up (and then how the user decides), *not* if it's an ISO or not. With a properly put together ISO you will have a choice, without it you never will.
:)
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I think the fact that they have charged for ANY of the updates to AOS4 is scandalous.
Some say that MorphOS reached its de-facto "v1.0 level" somewhere around v2.0/2.1 (and this is also when the license started to cost money).
When it comes to OS4, I feel that it has yet some distance to go before it reaches its "v1.0" level...
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Not that I am biased :)
But I suspect it never will
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I think the fact that they have charged for ANY of the updates to AOS4 is scandalous.
lol... isn't that the sound of a MOS fanboy? :-P ... and now the whole flamewar begins...
That is just to tease me and it won't work. I would probably use MOS if I could but this is OT.
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Well I think my sig give that away :)
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I guess ssolie's method of "blame the users, blame the applications" wasn't actually getting the bugs fixed in Update 3.
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It's nice that they're working on it. Hopefully they get it done in less than 18 months this time.
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Oh, and...
...there are *no reasons whatsoever* to why you shouldn't be able to upgrade from an ISO. Every single one of the public MorphOS releases (v1.0+) came packaged as an ISO, and it was only on one or two occasions (1.4->2.0?) that you were recommended to do a clean install instead of upgrading. The only downside (and it's really a minor one with today's Internet bandwidth standards) is that file size may be bigger with an ISO, but the upsides are so much bigger. Clean install or upgrade - it's a matter of how the installer is set up (and then how the user decides), *not* if it's an ISO or not. With a properly put together ISO you will have a choice, without it you never will.
:)
Absolutely, that should go without saying, but wasn't my point. Maybe you were so eager to disagree with me (I am an OS4 user after all) that you failed to understand what I was actually saying. :)
I'd like to be able to download an upgrade package, double-click it, and it goes ahead and upgrades my installation. Not to have to mess around burning CDs or mounting virtual CD devices. Update 3 worked like this for me, and I would much prefer future upgrades to work that way too rather than being ISO-only.
And, as for your previous point, yes, it's a shame the issues with the update were handled the way they were; I'm not denying that. As you pointed out, other systems have issues with updates too, and it's not unique to the Amigoid world either. The company I work for has several parallels with the current Amiga world: custom hardware, userbase measured in the hundreds or maybe low thousands, software updates maybe once or twice a year. There should only be 2 different configurations of our machines in the field, and we thoroughly test each software release on both, yet issues still crop up because: a) we have no control over what the user changes on the machines, and b) sometimes the updates show up obscure firmware or hardware bugs on specific setup and usage combinations. These things are just expected, and happen no matter how much validation we do on our systems.
What might even scare you is that these machines are used in hospital labs for testing patient blood samples prior to and during surgery! That's a far more regulated and tested product than some unheard of hobbyist OS, but still suffers from the same issues.
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Takemehomegrandma, go away. I'm a pretty open dude when it comes to the various "modern" platforms, but your nonstop gum flapping about things you likely haven't used is hysterical. It's OTT and completely annoying. If you want to get down to brass tacks, there was issues with the last MOS update too. It's a hobbyist market, use what you like and enjoy. Guess what? All OS's with user numbers in the hundreds or low thousands are not exactly "primetime" and bugs will be seen. You are to MOS what Dammy is to C-USA.
There was nothing catastrophic about the latest OS4 update. In fact there was nothing wrong with what Hyperion did, wasn't their issue. If OS4 is not your cup of tea, fine. It simply was not Hyperion's doing, and if you had gone thru the process yourself you would have seen that.
I own OS4 and MOS machines, but the constant catty nonsense coming out of a few of the fanboys here (any camp) when they likely haven't explored all the options is extremely offputting, and in fact the reason I have not registered MOS thus far. Sorry to you devs that work your butts off, but there's enough toxic weirdos in in the Amiga community and I won't pay for the privilege of being around them, lol.
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Absolutely, that should go without saying, but wasn't my point. Maybe you were so eager to disagree with me (I am an OS4 user after all) that you failed to understand what I was actually saying. :)
Well I read your post here, and I read your post on AW.net, and I got the picture that you really thought it was *either* an upgrade option *or* a clean install, and it all came down to the SW being packaged as an ISO or not (and it seems many other thinks so as well). Sorry I misinterpreted you. And for the record, of course I don't automatically disagree with people just because they are OS4 users. :)
I'd like to be able to download an upgrade package, double-click it, and it goes ahead and upgrades my installation. Not to have to mess around burning CDs or mounting virtual CD devices. Update 3 worked like this for me, and I would much prefer future upgrades to work that way too rather than being ISO-only.
Well, on MorphOS, ISO's are perfectly clickable, no hazzle! :p ;)
IMHO there is a certain "beauty", or "cleanliness" if you like, of releasing the OS as a complete ISO that contains everything needed, hence every new release becomes like a new lowest common denominator, increasing the predictability, and making it easy to do a clean install of any version if you want to. Releasing a series of incomplete/partial patches that each builds on the previous one, isn't really "kosher" in my view. I can understand why this is done on Windows, where sizes counts in gigabytes, but on Amiga? Since the bigger size of an ISO is the only rational argument *against* ISO-style releases I can see, it obviously comes down to a matter of taste of the OS4 devs. They simply don't like ISO's. Or maybe Hyperion don't want to distribute complete releases in any other shape and form than a physical CD with a boing-ball printed on it (isn't that one of the most important parts of their product after all - the boing ball (TM)? ). I don't know. But even if you "have to" burn a CD (and given the frequency of OS4 releases - how much of an effort can this really be for a user? It's not a daily, not a monthly, heck, mostly it isn't even a *yearly* chore!), this "one time" effort must surely have a lot of benefits as soon as you decide to do a clean reinstall with the latest version, in comparison to first install the latest ISO, then one update, then another, then a third, etc.
I can see many voices in favor of an ISO on various forums, so I'm getting quite sure they will give in and finally release their OS as an ISO this time; it was many revisions ago they did this (was it OS4.1.1?). And given that OS4.1.4 will (supposedly) be the last revision in the OS4.1.x branch, I think it makes sense to "wrap it up" in a nice and clean ISO that marks the end of the "OS4.1.x era", before "OS4.2.x" enters the scene with all its groundbreaking, mythical improvements that will change the Amiga paradigm forever... ;)
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there was issues with the last MOS update too.
Never have I claimed otherwise! There *are* bugs in MorphOS!
But *never* have the MorphOS Team released something of *similar poor quality* as OS4.1.3. Why do you think they are announcing a OS4.1.4 release this quick? Or rather, why do you think they are announcing it at all? OS4.1.3 was supposed to be the last one before OS4.2.0, but now they are rushing out a quick fix! Only praising Hyperion and silencing criticism of their work won't improve one thing. Enlighten the problems might. I am perfectly aware that they have a couple of years of development to reach the competitions level of features and Amiga compatibility, but if they set out to deliver products under the name "Amiga" they should at least try to live up to its standards when it comes to *quality*! OS4.1.3 was a mockery...
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A new version of any flavour of Amiga operating systems is always very good and welcome news.
The constant trolling by various members whenever AmigaOS is mentioned just makes me sad though. But maybe that's what they want, to drive people away. If they can't have the Amiga legacy to themselves then nobody can have it!
When will they understand that this helps nobody.
And cut the "this is constructive criticism" BS. It's not. Bringing up the same point multiple times in the same thread, and then on every thread you can find is not helpful.
If there is a few issues in a new OS release, don't blow it out of all proportion, and then don't whinge even more when there is a new release which will fix the couple of bugs that you were whinging about in the first place.
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The constant trolling by various members whenever AmigaOS4 is mentioned just makes me sad though.
^^ fixed this for you.
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Never have I claimed otherwise! There *are* bugs in MorphOS!
But *never* have the MorphOS Team released something of *similar poor quality* as OS4.1.3. Why do you think they are announcing a OS4.1.4 release this quick?
La di da... ;)
Steve
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I guess ssolie's method of "blame the users, blame the applications" wasn't actually getting the bugs fixed in Update 3.
i have followed the 4.1.3 story a little and can confirm that it really looks like many troubles were caused by screwed mui classes/libs and the like. things a limited number of devs for a hobby os cannot realy take into account. so i dont think its right to blame it all on os4 and the devs instead of its (in many cases rather clueless) users. of course you might say a good os can defend itself, like windows demanding approved drivers etc. even me, i might say i had not such severe problems testing so many kind of stuff on os3.x and aros68. but i really think the problems are really blown out of proportions and in the end the os4 users may also accept some responsibility (what they apparently do), especially in this little community.
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*ALL* you do here is slam on anything you feel isn't "THE TRUE AMIGA", Takemehomegrandma. Have you ever used OS4 on a modern SAM? Many of the OS4 "issues" you are claiming as fact simply are not true, lol. Talking head nonsense, and it's offputting to see the division of the camps drive people away from otherwise good offerings.
The most hysterical thing is how many people from your side of the camp have been apologetic via PM's to people about your uppity fanboyism, lol.
People have outright avoided some software offerings due to this, and that is not an exaggeration in the least. People on your side of the fence have apologized and said "please ignore the yappers that slam on anything other than our product".
Use what you like, and everyone should be thankful we have ANYTHING vaguely resembling the Amiga, nevermind the fact we have a handful of choices for Amiga OS's to pick from (MOS, OS4, Aros, legacy, etc).
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It's a shame yet another OS4 related thread is being spammed by the usual suspects.
Is absolutely nothing wrong with constructive criticism, but this just the same politically
charged crap from a minority of individuals that troll just about every OS4 related thread and is beginning to wear thin.
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They are having long road to improve release quality but I guess I can defend this news item this time: it is news that they are working on update 4 rather than the next release would be 4.2.
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Now I remember why I don't check this site very often anymore.
Chris
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@ the usual cry-babies
OK, before continuing this moaning about my presence in this thread, go back and read from the beginning what I have actually written:
In this thread *I have* expressed "positiveness" towards the fact that they are trying to fix the OS4.1.3 mess (which is an established fact, not some evil "takemehomegrandma propaganda", the very existence of this "news item" is proof to the pudding) with a new bugfix release. This *is* a good thing, nowhere did I say otherwise (if you feel I did, please point me to that post)!
I have also tried highlight the benefits of ISO-style releases, and trying to correct some (obviously) common misconceptions regarding possibility of having an update option in ISO's. I'm far, far from the only one preferring this, you see many OS4 fans on this site and on other sites expressing the very same opinions.
That's about it! And this has caused you (the "usual suspects") to double the thread's length with meta-comments about my evilness. Sigh.
Give me a reason to cheer, and I'll cheer, but I'll also call cr@p when I see it. The advent of an unexpected and unplanned OS4.1.4 bugfix release in between OS4.1.3 and OS4.2.0 *is* a good thing for OS4 fans, like I said in this thread. OS4.1.3 clearly wasn't, and propaganda from the "there are no bugs in the Articia S" zealots won't change that fact. Deal with it!
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Oooops sorry for intruding, I didn't realise that this is the JJ and takemehomegrandma mutual masturbation thread... ;)
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LOl! Half this thread is blocked on my ignore list. takmehomegradma must be at it again......
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If I buy OS4.1 today, will 4.2 be a free upgrade (Like MOS 2.8 to 3.0 will be) or will I have to shell out another 150 notes to get it?
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@ the usual cry-babies
OK, before continuing this moaning about my presence in this thread, go back and read from the beginning what I have actually written:
In this thread *I have* expressed "positiveness" towards the fact that they are trying to fix the OS4.1.3 mess (which is an established fact, not some evil "takemehomegrandma propaganda", the very existence of this "news item" is proof to the pudding) with a new bugfix release. This *is* a good thing, nowhere did I say otherwise (if you feel I did, please point me to that post)!
I have also tried highlight the benefits of ISO-style releases, and trying to correct some (obviously) common misconceptions regarding possibility of having an update option in ISO's. I'm far, far from the only one preferring this, you see many OS4 fans on this site and on other sites expressing the very same opinions.
That's about it! And this has caused you (the "usual suspects") to double the thread's length with meta-comments about my evilness. Sigh.
Give me a reason to cheer, and I'll cheer, but I'll also call cr@p when I see it. The advent of an unexpected and unplanned OS4.1.4 bugfix release in between OS4.1.3 and OS4.2.0 *is* a good thing for OS4 fans, like I said in this thread. OS4.1.3 clearly wasn't, and propaganda from the "there are no bugs in the Articia S" zealots won't change that fact. Deal with it!
I'll bite.
You say you expressed positiveness! You called the 4.1.3 release "Catastrophic" when it clearly wasn't. You also say that 4.1.3 being a "mess" is an established fact, when it's not a fact, it's just your own very biased opinion. You also blow out of proportion that some users have had problems, but you fail to recognise that most of the issues were sorted out. And you keep harping on about how you don't like the AmigaOS4 install procedure, we know already, give it a rest. Then you get in with snidey remarks about how you think amigaOs4 has not reached it's 1.0 level and how it is of poor quality.
Your definition of positive is not the same as mine.
This biased trolling is hurting what remains of the Amiga platform. Please stop it.
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@raddude9
You make it sound like I'm making things up, like what happened didn't *really* happen. I don't know, maybe it's down to perception, clearly you don't see the reality the way I do. We don't have to agree. If we can just leave it at that, I will try not to post further in this thread, but before I go, let me just say that one positive thing that OS4.1.3 brought, is that there now will be an OS4.1.4, and this one will contain - on top of the obvious bug fixes - a *surprise* or two! :)
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I will ask you again Takemehomegrandma, and please answer the questions: have you used said OS on a modern, native PPC machine? Did you personally apply the 4.1 u3 update yourself on a system? If the answer is "yes" to both, what sort of issues exactly did you have? If the answer is no, you have nothing but hearsay to go on, sorry - Talking head nonsense.
I do, and did. I hit an initial problem with some rogue MUI programs/libs that monkeyed up the patch, just as I have hit problems with mainstream OS's and "third party" programs. (See OS X Lion, or newer versions of Windows breaking programs)
It's not an issue of "perception" in the least dude, lol. It was a problem with third party programs as far as I am concerned. I'm well aware of the shortcomings of OS 4.1, but talking out of ones hindquarters and claiming "vague observations" as "fact" is wholly silly.
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@takemehomegrandma
Catastrophic? It seems that most people had no issues with update 3, and of those who did, most were down to messiness with 3rd party libraries etc. Given the small numbers of developers and testers involved, there's always a risk an update like that won't work with someone's setup, simply because there are so many different setups out there. We have issues in my job where we roll out an update to supposedly identical machines and it just fails on some. Not ideal, but that's how it goes.
I agree about the ISO though - a full, clean ISO would be nice as an option for those who want to or need to do a clean install. Personally, I'd like both to be available - an upgrade so I don't have to do any messing with ISOs and reconfiguring my machine after installation, and a full ISO, just in case I ever have a need for it...
Friend, the subject takemehomegrandma is a Mor.... Taliban and instead of to be glad for the foreign good, he only is happy wish the bad things for OS4 users. This people with these feelings is a bad Amiga users, I'm very happy that in a future will there is a MorphOS 3.0 although I like a unique OS for PPC called "Ramona" or other name, but a unique with all energies and people working around it.
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I need for this new update for my Sam 460ex drivers for the Ati graphic card and a good sound drivers, and a new 3D library or driver for the future software, all these thing will available in this update 4?
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I am happy to see that there will be at least one more update before OS4.2 is released.
Update 1 was an ISO image. I had no problems creating a CD-R, but there was an issue with some drivers that caused havoc with the MicroA1 systems. Many of us had to disable two onboard USB ports to allow us to boot into a stable system. I had no problems doing the actual updates for update 2 or update 3. Just as a precaution, I backed up my prefs files, user-startup and a few other important files. Then I downloaded the lha file, used Unarc to unarchive the files and performed the update. All very straight forward.
A few years ago, I moved most of my third part stuff off my system partition and I have kept my system partition as clean as possible in an attempt to avoid extra work when it comes time to upgrade.
---
redfox
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It's a shame yet another OS4 related thread is being spammed by the usual suspects.
Is absolutely nothing wrong with constructive criticism, but this just the same politically
charged crap from a minority of individuals that troll just about every OS4 related thread and is beginning to wear thin.
yup I've been saying the exact same things for what seems like ever here but 'the usual suspects' still constantly troll on every single OS4.x thread...just really sad:(
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have you used said OS on a modern, native PPC machine? Did you personally apply the 4.1 u3 update yourself on a system?
First - you made an error by using the words "PPC" and "modern" in the same sentence; yesterdays ARM *smartbooks* are on par (http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7675&viewmode=flat&sortorder=0&start=164) with Sam440. Current ARM Cortex-A9 smartbooks are on par (http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7675&viewmode=flat&sortorder=0&start=165) with G4 (AFAIK, the Sam 460 isn't really) -- and the G4 had its peak half a decade ago!
Did you personally apply the 4.1 u3 update yourself on a system?
No, it was a very long time I owned a OS4 system, and I have absolutely no reason or ambition to ever own one again. I can't see a single benefit of an OS4 system over a MorphOS system, and it doesn't look like this fact will change anytime soon.
If the answer is no, you have nothing but hearsay to go on, sorry - Talking head nonsense.
Some "hearsay" also say the upgrade worked flawless (there has been many users closing up behind Hyperion to show their support in this after the **** hit the fan), but there was also a *massive* (relatively speaking) - even for an OS4 release - testimonies from respected OS4 users about the quality of the OS4.1.3 release. Denying this is futile, someone started to compile a long list of references of issues over at moobunny, or maybe it was two lists even, and if I would spend an hour browsing through AW.net, Amiga.org, Hyperion's forum, and moobunny, I am pretty confident I could present you with quite an impressive list of a significant number of people, most reporting more than one issue, and not few of them are of a *fundamental* kind. I can easily do that this afternoon. Do you want me to?
Edit:
In various forums presenting this "advent of OS4.1.4" news item, there are many suggestions of what bugs users hopes to have fixed. And new testemonies of OS4.1.3's "quality" keeps coming in as we speak, this was from *yesterday*:
"Same here, update 3 is really slow, slower than my windows 7 machine at booting, seems over a minute now, and the start up sound stutters like crazy."
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=34424&forum=2&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#633014
"I can only compare my Mac mini G4 on MOS and my A1XE on OS 4.1.3
From cold MOS boots for me in around 10 seconds, OS 4.1.3 in around 1 min so there is a substantial difference, but as mentioned earlier, update 3 seems to have made the boot around 10 times slower than it was previously, I just look at the boot screen for a good minute or so after UBoot, not sure what change slowed it down so much."
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=34424&forum=2&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#633016
OS4.1.3 boots multiple times slower than OS4.1.2, there are no rational reasons to explain this vast speed decrease other than something must be borked.
Look, there is a reason to why they announce an OS4.1.4, and it's *not* because OS4.1.3 was a good quality release, it's the very opposite. Why is this so hard to grasp?
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I've also said same thing, many times. I didn't realize that they are mastubating here :D so maybe all this bull**** is understable, let them do what ever they wan to do in peace.
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Just for a laugh I just timed my lowly Sam440ep 600MHz with u3.
It took 17 seconds from OS4.1 logo to loaded desktop, and that included a few seconds for DHCP look-up.
Just because some people installed software that did things it shouldn't does NOT mean the OS is "fundamentally flawed".
We know you like MOS, that's fine - I use it too sometimes - but repeating hearsay as truth isn't on. Sure there are people complaining but each time it was down to something that user had done, NOT the OS itself. If their apps had followed OS guidelines there would have been no issue, so you can't blame OS4.
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Well, on MorphOS, ISO's are perfectly clickable, no hazzle! :p ;)
*shrug* Same on OS4.
IMHO there is a certain "beauty", or "cleanliness" if you like, of releasing the OS as a complete ISO that contains everything needed, hence every new release becomes like a new lowest common denominator, increasing the predictability, and making it easy to do a clean install of any version if you want to. Releasing a series of incomplete/partial patches that each builds on the previous one, isn't really "kosher" in my view. I can understand why this is done on Windows, where sizes counts in gigabytes, but on Amiga? Since the bigger size of an ISO is the only rational argument *against* ISO-style releases I can see, it obviously comes down to a matter of taste of the OS4 devs. They simply don't like ISO's. Or maybe Hyperion don't want to distribute complete releases in any other shape and form than a physical CD with a boing-ball printed on it (isn't that one of the most important parts of their product after all - the boing ball (TM)? ). I don't know. But even if you "have to" burn a CD (and given the frequency of OS4 releases - how much of an effort can this really be for a user? It's not a daily, not a monthly, heck, mostly it isn't even a *yearly* chore!), this "one time" effort must surely have a lot of benefits as soon as you decide to do a clean reinstall with the latest version, in comparison to first install the latest ISO, then one update, then another, then a third, etc.
Well, it looks like it just comes down to your opinion then, fair enough. It doesn't make ISO distribution a better system, you just prefer it. Perhaps it would be good to make that distinction more clearly in future. As you point out below, Hyperion did release an ISO for one of the updates which did require a full install, so it's not to do with physical CDs. I do think download size is a reasonable argument - I'd prefer a 10-minute download to a 15-minute download when the end result to me is the same, and purely as a matter of opinion, I think only providing the updated components in an archive is a much more elegant solution than providing an ISO.
I can see many voices in favor of an ISO on various forums, so I'm getting quite sure they will give in and finally release their OS as an ISO this time; it was many revisions ago they did this (was it OS4.1.1?). And given that OS4.1.4 will (supposedly) be the last revision in the OS4.1.x branch, I think it makes sense to "wrap it up" in a nice and clean ISO that marks the end of the "OS4.1.x era", before "OS4.2.x" enters the scene with all its groundbreaking, mythical improvements that will change the Amiga paradigm forever... ;)
And you wonder why people accuse you of not being positive when it comes to OS4? I know it's only your opinion, but using language like 'groundbreaking' and 'mythical' makes you come across as quite sarcastic and dismissive. Some might even consider it trolling, even if you did put a smiley face on the end.
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Just for a laugh I just timed my lowly Sam440ep 600MHz with u3.
It took 17 seconds from OS4.1 logo to loaded desktop, and that included a few seconds for DHCP look-up.
(Just to relate to "Duce's" post above): Since I haven't seen that myself, should I discard that as "hearsay" and "talking head nonsense"? :p ;)
Look, I know that there are many users having had no problems whatsoever with the OS4.1.3 upgrade, never claimed otherwise, but the fact is that *never* had the amount of people *having* problems been *this high* with an OS4 release. And just because your machine boots in 17 seconds doesn't mean that "danwood's" does! Or do you call him (and everyone else having problems with OS4.1.3) *liars* based on *your* experience?
This is getting "funnier" by the minute...
Just because some people installed software that did things it shouldn't does NOT mean the OS is "fundamentally flawed".
Oh, tell me you aren't "doing a ssolie" here - blaming users and blaming applications! AFAIK danwood, and everyone else, simply followed the provided upgrade instructions (it *was meant* to be an upgrade, not a clean install only). He simply went from OS4.1.2 (where things worked) to OS4.1.3, everything else "Ceteris Paribus", and he got this effect.
kas1e (in the same thread) had a similar experience (but with different numbers): On a *clean, freshly installed* OS4.1.3 Peg2 system, it boots in 38 seconds, 50% slower than MorphOS on the very same system.
The thing is, OS4.1.2 was only 30% slower.
Huh?
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OS4.1.3 boots multiple times slower than OS4.1.2, there are no rational reasons to explain this vast speed decrease other than something must be borked.
Interesting, first time I've heard of that. You present it as a fact though, like it's normal behaviour, when you haven't even tried it out yourself. You really should qualify that with "some users have found" or something, or else some people might think you're trolling again. I noticed no difference in boot times when I updated my machine, and if I had, I'd try to see if it's a funky 3rd party app or network setup that's causing the stall, and report my findings, possibly helping out others with the same issue. You know, generally being constructive and helpful. Something you should try sometime.
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LOl! Half this thread is blocked on my ignore list. takmehomegradma must be at it again......
Indeed...
Now I remember why I don't check this site very often anymore.
Chris
Yep, I wonder why I ever bother...
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Well, it looks like it just comes down to your opinion then, fair enough. It doesn't make ISO distribution a better system, you just prefer it.
No, most rational, technical arguments speaks in favor of ISO-style distributions. Them tending to be bigger thus taking slightly longer to download is really the only negative aspect to it. Nothing subjective about it, we have been over this before, in many threads in the past.
And you wonder why people accuse you of not being positive when it comes to OS4? I know it's only your opinion, but using language like 'groundbreaking' and 'mythical' makes you come across as quite sarcastic and dismissive. Some might even consider it trolling, even if you did put a smiley face on the end.
Well, after the OS4.1.4 release they will do a major version bump to OS4.2.x, which usually means major changes, not minor. This OS generation is proclaimed to be the one who will make full use of the new features in "AmigaOne X1000" hardware, and some planned/promised features (maybe not in OS4.2.0, but further down the line) are well known, and indeed "groundbreaking", and "mythical" isn't really a bad word in the context either. For example I must say that I very much look forward to see how ssolie &co will solve *true SMP*, *true MP*, etc without breaking Amiga compatibility, as well as seeing all the cool stuff they have planned for "Xena"! :)
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Interesting, first time I've heard of that. You present it as a fact though, like it's normal behaviour, when you haven't even tried it out yourself. You really should qualify that with "some users have found" or something, or else some people might think you're trolling again.
No, *I am not* presenting *anything* as fact, I am merely relaying what *others* say, and what you in fact have just said here, in practice, is that kas1e and danwood are lying/trolling when they say that they found OS4.1.3 to boot slower than OS4.1.2 on their machines! Wow!
It's funny how relaying "hearsay" from respected OS4 users about OS4.1.3 being flawless is considered an absolute truth and fact, while at the same time relaying "hearsay" from other respected OS4 users about *problems* with OS4.1.3 is "trolling"! :rolleyes:
"Normal behavior" you say, well, "Normal behavior" is defined by an aggregation of the population. It's a well established fact that OS4.1.3 worked fine for some users, and it didn't work fine at all for others! This "unevenness" is the definition of bad quality, and the quality threshold for what quality Hyperion could accept as "normal OS4 behavior" *obviously* wasn't met in OS4.1.3, hence they have announced that they (despite earlier plans that OS4.2.0 would be the next release) have now *rather quickly* announced an OS4.1.4 release as well, in order to fix the outstanding issues reported to their bug tracker. Quality threshold wasn't met, they decide to fix it. Simple really. It's getting funnier and funnier that some people here so persistently and furiously denies this! :lol:
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If you have an OS which works perfectly until you install a piece of software that doesn't obey guidelines, then yes, I'll blame the software and not the OS. If that makes me like ssolie then that's just fine.
So if I write an OS, and provide guidelines to developers, and then someone writes software that ignores those guidelines, and it breaks a future update - is that my fault or theirs?
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If you have an OS which works perfectly until you install a piece of software that doesn't obey guidelines, then yes, I'll blame the software and not the OS. If that makes me like ssolie then that's just fine.
So if I write an OS, and provide guidelines to developers, and then someone writes software that ignores those guidelines, and it breaks a future update - is that my fault or theirs?
This is very true but it became too much when a user had issues with IBrowse IIRC that has worked since forever and still does. Then it must be something else. Also it isn't always very nice to just say "it isn't our software so not our problem". The issue could be something MUI related for example so in that case is it not an issue that should be handled by the OS developers? At least try to help.
If it is some nasty tool from 1991 then I agree though.
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Hyperion have been helpful though - they created a forum specially, and they're keeping us informed about update 4. Most of the problems people experienced have been solved - I believe mostly it was down to rogue MUI libs in LIBS: - which should NEVER be the case. Plus just because IBrowse didn't break it before doesn't mean it never will, OS 4 has undergone so many changes under the hood it's not surprising some new problems arise.
I don't think anyone is saying OS4 is perfect, but many of the accusations leveled against in this thread just aren't true or fair on Hyperion, and it's that that I have a problem with.
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First I've heard of the latest update being slow to boot. From BIOS screen to fully usable Workbench screen is 5 seconds for me (SATA SSD drive), faster than the previous versions under exact same hardware..
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If I buy OS4.1 today, will 4.2 be a free upgrade (Like MOS 2.8 to 3.0 will be) or will I have to shell out another 150 notes to get it?
Anyone know?
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I don't think anyone knows, but I imagine you'd have to pay up again I'm afraid.
The best place to ask isn't here but on the Hyperion forums themselves, they'll know. It does make sense to offer a free upgrade if you buy after a particular date, I think.
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If you have an OS which works perfectly until you install a piece of software that doesn't obey guidelines, then yes, I'll blame the software and not the OS. If that makes me like ssolie then that's just fine.
So if I write an OS, and provide guidelines to developers, and then someone writes software that ignores those guidelines, and it breaks a future update - is that my fault or theirs?
Interesting then that Update 4 is announced within a couple months of Update 3.
It's no secret that this is a hotfix.
I don't think anyone is saying OS4 is perfect, but many of the accusations leveled against in this thread just aren't true or fair on Hyperion, and it's that that I have a problem with.
Many people taking their head out of the sand have a problem with this kind of attitude (3rd post and first official response to Update 3 issue):
http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=271#p3491
But Update 4 will make it all better, I'm sure. Meantime I'm looking forward to seeing SMP demonstrated along with the specialty hardware Xorro and Xena at AmiWest this year!
.
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I don't think anyone knows, but I imagine you'd have to pay up again I'm afraid.
The best place to ask isn't here but on the Hyperion forums themselves, they'll know. It does make sense to offer a free upgrade if you buy after a particular date, I think.
I am not paying jack all for any 4.2 upgrade. I'd sell the SAM and OS4 first. I've been the FIRST guy to defend OS4 lately, but no. Just no.
I love the thing and really enjoy it, but honestly the price for the OS was $160 in my currency. My last OEM Win 7 64 DVD cost me less than that.
OS X Lion was $30. In fact I bought W7 64 bit Ultimate full version OEM and OS X Lion for a similar price total.
Both Windows and OS X show notable progress, where as OS 4.1uX updates are just fixes. 4.2 won't make my SAM 440 do backflips - it's a hobbyist machine I have stuffed in the corner that runs an old school telnet BBS that barely anyone calls. These are not mission critical machines, and I won't be milked like a cow for upgrade fees, lol.
The difference from 4.1 to 4.2 will not be like going from XP to Win 7.
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I don't think anyone knows, but I imagine you'd have to pay up again I'm afraid.
The best place to ask isn't here but on the Hyperion forums themselves, they'll know. It does make sense to offer a free upgrade if you buy after a particular date, I think.
Thanks, I will ask over there. A free upgrade would be nice as i'm only considering buying OS4 to develop for it.
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I think 4.2 isn't going to be so necessary as 4.1 was. I could be wrong (I'm not involved with Hyperion) but I think 4.2's main improvement will be SMP support, which of course is of no use to anyone other than X1000 owners.
Let's not forget though that charging for hotfixes is hardly new - all the OSes do it. Look at Windows for example. Win 95 didn't work on AMD K6-2 chips, so you had to fork out for '98. Then when you did, you found that '98 had completely broken USB, and you had to fork out again for Win 98 OSR2.
If you don't need the upgrade, then don't upgrade, I think is the message here.
For what it's worth I completely empathise. I have 4.0 on my Classic, 4.1 on my A1 and 4.1 on my Sam440ep - if I were to upgrade them all I'd be looking at close to £300, which is much more than I can afford!
I suggest using your OS until you find that you need the upgrade, then upgrade. Just because they're bringing out a new version doesn't mean you need to buy it (though I know the temptation is very strong!).
@jorkany
No-one said update 3 was perfect, but in no way was it as bad as it was being accused of.
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Let's not forget though that charging for hotfixes is hardly new - all the OSes do it. Look at Windows for example. Win 95 didn't work on AMD K6-2 chips, so you had to fork out for '98. Then when you did, you found that '98 had completely broken USB, and you had to fork out again for Win 98 OSR2.
Not true at all. Microsoft issued a free patch to fix the problem with the K6-2 in 95 and patches for USB in 98. No need to pay for an upgrade.
A hotfix should always be free.
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MS did not charge for the fixes for either issue mentioned.
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The first case, even Microsoft admit:
NOTE: This fix does not correct the problem for the retail version of Windows 95
If - like me - you had the retail version you had to buy Win 98.
And Win98SE was a paid-for upgrade, which you needed. I remember a lot of USB hardware saying "Windows 98 SE only" because it was basically borked (or to put it charitably - very basic) in the original 98.
In both cases you had to pay. I know, because I was a K6-2 owner with USB devices!
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The first case, even Microsoft admit:
NOTE: This fix does not correct the problem for the retail version of Windows 95
If - like me - you had the retail version you had to buy Win 98.
And Win98SE was a paid-for upgrade, which you needed. I remember a lot of USB hardware saying "Windows 98 SE only" because it was basically borked (or to put it charitably - very basic) in the original 98.
In both cases you had to pay. I know, because I was a K6-2 owner with USB devices!
I had the same problem so I switched to Linux full time. :)
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I have 4.0 on my Classic, 4.1 on my A1 and 4.1 on my Sam440ep - if I were to upgrade them all I'd be looking at close to £300, which is much more than I can afford!
If you want to "upgrade" you spend £300. If you want to buy them new you spend ... £300. That's the real problem, there is no real upgrade path. And yes, it sucks.
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I never had to pay one thin dime for the K6-2 or USB fixes for Windows 95/98, or any other incremental service pack. Only people I ever heard having issues with that back in the day were the ones not running legal copies of said OS.
I've never paid a cent for any Windows update or fix within release cycle Full versions, of course (95 to 95, 98 to 2000, 2000 to XP, etc.) Service packs have never been a pay for deal as long as I have been using Windows.
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No-one said update 3 was perfect
On the contrary, *plenty* said that...
but in no way was it as bad as it was being accused of.
It was surely bad enough for Hyperion to quickly announce a OS4.1.4 hotfix instead of going directly towards OS4.2.0 as planned.
This seems to be very hard for some people to take in...