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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: amiga4000freak on October 09, 2011, 03:40:22 PM

Title: what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd
Post by: amiga4000freak on October 09, 2011, 03:40:22 PM
hello

What hardware do i need for my amiga 4000 to run bigger hard drives over 4g?.  Also what graphics card is best out of picasso 2 or retina z3?.
Title: Re: what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd
Post by: utri007 on October 09, 2011, 04:02:32 PM
4gb is not a problem, problem is that boot partition cannot be over 2gb. It woun't be problem to have any size HD, to get bigger paritions you will need this http://aminet.net/package/disk/misc/ffstd64 or OS3.5/3.9

I would go for retina, it supports Zorro 3 and PicassoII doesn't, at least theory you get faster bus speed with retina.
Title: Re: what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd
Post by: Darrin on October 09, 2011, 04:14:01 PM
Quote from: utri007;663025
4gb is not a problem, problem is that boot partition cannot be over 2gb. It woun't be problem to have any size HD, to get bigger paritions you will need this http://aminet.net/package/disk/misc/ffstd64 or OS3.5/3.9

I would go for retina, it supports Zorro 3 and PicassoII doesn't, at least theory you get faster bus speed with retina.


Strange, my boot partition is 40GB.
Title: Re: what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd
Post by: zipper on October 09, 2011, 04:23:49 PM
That's really strange...
Title: Re: what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd
Post by: Tension on October 09, 2011, 04:31:53 PM
Quote from: Darrin;663026
Strange, my boot partition is 40GB.


when u go over 4gb it will wrap round and wreck the rdb. Be warned!
Title: Re: what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd
Post by: amiga4000freak on October 09, 2011, 04:38:55 PM
you mean 40g in total or as a partition
Title: Re: what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd
Post by: Darrin on October 09, 2011, 04:40:42 PM
Quote from: amiga4000freak;663030
you mean 40g in total or as a partition


It is 80GB, 2 x 40GB partitions.

Actually, it consists of 2 x 80GB HDs, 4 x 40GB Partitions, PFS3 on a FastATA4000.  All partitions boot happily and they all have over 4GB of info on them (ClassicWB 3.x installed, WHDLoad and just about every game you can think of).
Title: Re: what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd
Post by: amiga4000freak on October 09, 2011, 04:42:18 PM
hi

I think i know what you mean i used winuae to install classic wb and first partion was 500 meg and second was 3.7g and so on and when i went to boot into os it changed from rdb to unk and would not boot
Title: Re: what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd
Post by: Darrin on October 09, 2011, 04:49:42 PM
Quote from: amiga4000freak;663032
hi

I think i know what you mean i used winuae to install classic wb and first partion was 500 meg and second was 3.7g and so on and when i went to boot into os it changed from rdb to unk and would not boot


Perhaps I've been lucky so far and I'm on the edge of that 4GB of data on my main boot partition or does the FASTATA4000 allow a bigger boot partition than standard IDE/SCSI controllers on an Amiga?
Title: Re: what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd
Post by: Matt_H on October 09, 2011, 05:23:35 PM
Quote from: Darrin;663033
Perhaps I've been lucky so far and I'm on the edge of that 4GB of data on my main boot partition or does the FASTATA4000 allow a bigger boot partition than standard IDE/SCSI controllers on an Amiga?


The 4GB limit is due to 32-bit addressing on:
-Commodore drivers (scsi.device)
-Commodore FFS

So if you have a 64-bit filesystem like PFS in the RDB and the drive is on a 64-bit controller (which I think the FastATA is), then you should be fine.

I think a custom kickstart ROM with scsi.device v43 and FFS v45 burned in would also be immune to 4GB issues, as would a system with those modules loaded into FlashROM (like Algor/Deneb). I do the latter, but I keep my boot partition within the 4GB limit in just in case I need to disable the Flash.
Title: Re: what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd
Post by: Darrin on October 09, 2011, 05:30:48 PM
Quote from: Matt_H;663034
The 4GB limit is due to 32-bit addressing on:
-Commodore drivers (scsi.device)
-Commodore FFS

So if you have a 64-bit filesystem like PFS in the RDB and the drive is on a 64-bit controller (which I think the FastATA is), then you should be fine.

I think a custom kickstart ROM with scsi.device v43 and FFS v45 burned in would also be immune to 4GB issues, as would a system with those modules loaded into FlashROM (like Algor/Deneb). I do the latter, but I keep my boot partition within the 4GB limit in just in case I need to disable the Flash.


Thanks for that info.  I always thought I'd be safe with my 3rd party controller and SFS or PFS3.

I could always load SCSI.device v43 into my Deneb ROM too.
Title: Re: what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd
Post by: slaapliedje on October 09, 2011, 07:24:06 PM
So this brings up some questions.  How much faster is the FastATA 4000?  Looks like the MK-V should be in stock at Amigakit within 8 more days.  But is it really worth 166 bucks?

I think my A4000 could load a bit faster (right now it takes about 1minute 30 seconds before it's fully loaded up WB, and I have ClassicWB on it, with my mediator, radeon, and network card.  As well as an Indivision AGA).

Either that, or does a CF card adapter speed it up a whole lot?  I don't have a deneb yet, but was considering it.  I still have (hopefully) a second A4000 on the way, if DiscreetFX could get my address correct (some of which is probably my fault, but it should be sent to my parent's house...) So I'm wondering if I should set aside some cash for at least one of the FastATA 4000 MK-V, or CF card adapters, or what.  Decisions, decisions...

slaapliedje
Title: Re: what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd
Post by: Darrin on October 10, 2011, 02:24:29 AM
Quote from: slaapliedje;663040
So this brings up some questions.  How much faster is the FastATA 4000?  Looks like the MK-V should be in stock at Amigakit within 8 more days.  But is it really worth 166 bucks?

I think my A4000 could load a bit faster (right now it takes about 1minute 30 seconds before it's fully loaded up WB, and I have ClassicWB on it, with my mediator, radeon, and network card.  As well as an Indivision AGA).

Either that, or does a CF card adapter speed it up a whole lot?  I don't have a deneb yet, but was considering it.  I still have (hopefully) a second A4000 on the way, if DiscreetFX could get my address correct (some of which is probably my fault, but it should be sent to my parent's house...) So I'm wondering if I should set aside some cash for at least one of the FastATA 4000 MK-V, or CF card adapters, or what.  Decisions, decisions...

slaapliedje


I bought the MK4, but user upgraded it (replaced the ROM) to make it a MK5.

Yes, it is fast because you can select different speed modes for each device attached (PIO0 to PIO5), but you have to remember the size of the files we typically load as Amiga users.  I'm as happy with the Buddha in my A2000 as I am with the FastATA in my A4000.  Either way they are great pieces of kit and (IMHO) worth the money.

I wish I was at home because I'd time how fast it take me to load ClassicWB as I have a Mediator (With Radeon & SB) plus a Deneb.  I have a DVD ROM, CF Adapter and 2 x 80GB hard drives attached to the FastATA and I promise you that booting takes a hell of a lot less than 90 seconds.

I'll be home in 2 weeks.  If you're still interested then PM me and I'll time it for you.

Edit:  One thing you can do to speed up your A4000 is to terminate the IDE connector on the Motherboard.  The Deneb has a file to copy to the flash ROM, or you can use a physical terminator that just clips onto the IDE port.  Without it you have a delay in booting where the A4000 just sits there and does nothing.
Title: Re: what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd
Post by: Kesa on October 10, 2011, 03:39:55 AM
Quote from: amiga4000freak;663022
what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd?

A big fluffy beard! :roflmao:
Title: Re: what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd
Post by: Crumb on October 10, 2011, 11:57:56 AM
Quote from: Darrin;663031
It is 80GB, 2 x 40GB partitions.

Actually, it consists of 2 x 80GB HDs, 4 x 40GB Partitions, PFS3 on a FastATA4000.  All partitions boot happily and they all have over 4GB of info on them (ClassicWB 3.x installed, WHDLoad and just about every game you can think of).


If the HD is connected to motherboard ide/scsi and you coldboot your miggy with the old scsi.device loaded and also modify data above the 4GB you will overwrite the data located in the first 4GB of the HD.

FastATA4000 is different because when you coldboot the card already supports 64bit commands.
Title: Re: what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd
Post by: Brian on October 10, 2011, 01:32:25 PM
Quote from: amiga4000freak;663022
hello

What hardware do i need for my amiga 4000 to run bigger hard drives over 4g?.  Also what graphics card is best out of picasso 2 or retina z3?.


OS3.9 and you're good to go, with 3.1 it's a bit more work (although both requier the boot partition to be withing the first 4GB):
SCSI.device v43+ (http://os.amigaworld.de/index.php?lang=en&page=37)
FastFileSystem V43+ (http://os.amigaworld.de/index.php?lang=en&page=37)
LoadModule (http://aminet.net/search?query=LoadModule.lha) loading in the SCSI.device and FFS modules from the startup-sequense... that should do it and it also adds CDRom on the A4000 IDE connector aswell.
Title: Re: what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd
Post by: mechy on October 10, 2011, 01:43:28 PM
Quote from: slaapliedje;663040
So this brings up some questions.  How much faster is the FastATA 4000?  Looks like the MK-V should be in stock at Amigakit within 8 more days.  But is it really worth 166 bucks?

I think my A4000 could load a bit faster (right now it takes about 1minute 30 seconds before it's fully loaded up WB, and I have ClassicWB on it, with my mediator, radeon, and network card.  As well as an Indivision AGA).

Either that, or does a CF card adapter speed it up a whole lot?  I don't have a deneb yet, but was considering it.  I still have (hopefully) a second A4000 on the way, if DiscreetFX could get my address correct (some of which is probably my fault, but it should be sent to my parent's house...) So I'm wondering if I should set aside some cash for at least one of the FastATA 4000 MK-V, or CF card adapters, or what.  Decisions, decisions...

slaapliedje

If your looking for max speed with low cpu overhead forget the elbox stuff. SCSI off the accelerator is best because its local bus and avoids zorro3 bottlenecks. the accelerators with ultrawide scsi  are very fast(cyberstorm MK3 or PPC- 25MB/s+) but the cyberstorm MKII and warpengine narrow scsi is good too.Just all depends what you are doing.

Mech
Title: Re: what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd
Post by: mechy on October 10, 2011, 01:46:02 PM
Quote from: amiga4000freak;663022
hello

What hardware do i need for my amiga 4000 to run bigger hard drives over 4g?.  Also what graphics card is best out of picasso 2 or retina z3?.

As the others said, retina z3 would definately be faster. (just make sure your 4000 has buster 11 . i think the retina requires it).

os3.9 would probabaly be the easiest way to get the newer scsi device with 64bit support for large drives.
I would say use SFS over FFS also.
Mech
Title: Re: what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd
Post by: slaapliedje on October 10, 2011, 05:46:52 PM
Quote from: Darrin;663079
I bought the MK4, but user upgraded it (replaced the ROM) to make it a MK5.

Yes, it is fast because you can select different speed modes for each device attached (PIO0 to PIO5), but you have to remember the size of the files we typically load as Amiga users.  I'm as happy with the Buddha in my A2000 as I am with the FastATA in my A4000.  Either way they are great pieces of kit and (IMHO) worth the money.

I wish I was at home because I'd time how fast it take me to load ClassicWB as I have a Mediator (With Radeon & SB) plus a Deneb.  I have a DVD ROM, CF Adapter and 2 x 80GB hard drives attached to the FastATA and I promise you that booting takes a hell of a lot less than 90 seconds.

I'll be home in 2 weeks.  If you're still interested then PM me and I'll time it for you.

Edit:  One thing you can do to speed up your A4000 is to terminate the IDE connector on the Motherboard.  The Deneb has a file to copy to the flash ROM, or you can use a physical terminator that just clips onto the IDE port.  Without it you have a delay in booting where the A4000 just sits there and does nothing.

Interesting about the terminator.  That would explain why it does just seem to sit there and do nothing for a while.  That pause is a good 15 or so seconds (at least it seems that way).  

I'll try to remember to remind you to do a speed test.. my memory is pretty much crap though :D

slaapliedje
Title: Re: what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd
Post by: slaapliedje on October 10, 2011, 05:49:06 PM
Quote from: mechy;663105
If your looking for max speed with low cpu overhead forget the elbox stuff. SCSI off the accelerator is best because its local bus and avoids zorro3 bottlenecks. the accelerators with ultrawide scsi  are very fast(cyberstorm MK3 or PPC- 25MB/s+) but the cyberstorm MKII and warpengine narrow scsi is good too.Just all depends what you are doing.

Mech

Would love to go that route, but unfortunately even back when they were new, SCSI drives have been so expensive.  And that's just the hard drive, the accelerators are rare and everyone wants 800 bucks for 'em, which is about what I've already put into this A4000.  

I was thinking for a long time to pick up one of those 060 accelerators from Softwarehut, are they still around?  (Softwarehut and the accelerators)

slaapliedje
Title: Re: what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd
Post by: LaserBack on October 10, 2011, 07:39:58 PM
there is a myth that the first partition must be 2gb or lower
but it is not true at all...it's true for all filesystems except PFS3 DS
if you config the hardisk to use PFS3 DS (direct scsi) you can setup for example a 160gb hardisk as only boot partition
sincerely I don't know which is the limit of PFS3 ds but 160gb as boot partition works perfect
you do not need scsi v43 or v44 ...works perfect with scsi.device v39 or v40 in rom...there is no need to install new scsi.devices or reboots

EDIT:to make this works correctly ...first you must load resident scsi.device v43 and make all the hardisk setup....otherwise HDtoolbox will not recognize the drive correctly...hardisk size,numbers of cylinders ect
Title: Re: what do i need for amiga to detect bigger hd
Post by: Darrin on October 11, 2011, 12:26:07 AM
Quote from: LaserBack;663149
there is a myth that the first partition must be 2gb or lower
but it is not true at all...it's true for all filesystems except PFS3 DS
if you config the hardisk to use PFS3 DS (direct scsi) you can setup for example a 160gb hardisk as only boot partition
sincerely I don't know which is the limit of PFS3 ds but 160gb as boot partition works perfect
you do not need scsi v43 or v44 ...works perfect with scsi.device v39 or v40 in rom...there is no need to install new scsi.devices or reboots

EDIT:to make this works correctly ...first you must load resident scsi.device v43 and make all the hardisk setup....otherwise HDtoolbox will not recognize the drive correctly...hardisk size,numbers of cylinders ect


That sounds about right.

When I set up my first 80 GB hard drive I booted from a 2GB CF Card with Classic Workbench.  I then formatted them from there using PFS3-DS as 20 bootable 40GB partitions and copied the contents of the CF card over, added the WHDLoad games and other stuff before putting the CF Card away as an "Emergency boot disk".  I then prepped the other 80GB drive after booting from the first one.