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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Topic started by: deadwood on October 06, 2011, 07:57:32 PM
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A new versions of Mesa 3D library and Nouveau video drivers are available for AROS.
The major functionality introduced in this release is a full 2D/3D support for selected models from latest nVidia video card family - Fermi (GeForce 400/500 series) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia_Fermi), putting most powerful rendering capabilities in hands of AROS user.
The full driver package can be downloaded from:
Mesa-V19-2011-10-06.zip (http://download.aros3d.org/releases/Mesa-V19-2011-10-06.zip)
Other features and improvements:
- improved 3D rendering for NV50 series (GeForce 8 and up)
- reporting VRAM and GART sizes and free space via SysMon utility
- corrected memory allocation problems
- improved VRAM->RAM swapping on low memory conditions
Known problems:
- rendering regression with Cube/AssaultCube for GeForce 6200 users
The drivers are also available in the latest AROS Nightly Builds
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When are MorphOS and/or OS4 devs going to port/integrate this excellent work?
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When are MorphOS and/or OS4 devs going to port/integrate this excellent work?
When is MorphOS going to play catch up with an OS that is light years behind it?
Ha ha ha! I'm not bashing AROS, but that is a question that just boggles my mind!!! :)
Us MorphOS users have been enjoying the fruits of OpenGL and the like for quite some time now. I have NO complaints on that end for the most part. None the less, improvements in that department (amongst others) are right around the corner!
I guess if you want a free Amiga future, then you just have to wait for a pleasant experience, but those with a spare $100 have been enjoying such things for a long time.
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When is MorphOS going to play catch up with an OS that is light years behind it?
Ha ha ha! I'm not bashing AROS, but that is a question that just boggles my mind!!! :)
Us MorphOS users have been enjoying the fruits of OpenGL and the like for quite some time now. I have NO complaints on that end for the most part. None the less, improvements in that department (amongst others) are right around the corner!
I guess if you want a free Amiga future, then you just have to wait for a pleasant experience, but those with a spare $100 have been enjoying such things for a long time.
WTF?
MorphOS doesn't possess any support whatsoever for nVidia graphics cards.
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Oh, that's what you are going on about. :)
Well graphic cards are pocket change anyhow, and besides, I don't think any of us MorphOS users are having any issues with our ATI cards. It's not any of us are trying to play Half-Life 2 or anything. :)
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Oh, that's what you are going on about. :)
Well graphic cards are pocket change anyhow, and besides, I don't think any of us MorphOS users are having any issues with our ATI cards. It's not any of us are trying to play Half-Life 2 or anything. :)
The news article is about nVidia drivers, what else would I be talking about?
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Does Morph OS have wireless yet?
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Does Morph OS have wireless yet?
Should have soon enough.
http://www.geit.de/images/hm02092011/images/img0037.jpg
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:/ All this work on the latest-and-greatest nVidia cards and nouveau still doesn't have quality drivers for chipsets that have been around forever...
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The news article is about nVidia drivers, what else would I be talking about?
I was just thinking not so much about NVIDIA, but more so in relation to support for cards with 3D Acceleration in general. :)
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Sound and fury, signifying nothing. <#amigalikeOS> could support everything from current cards back and it doesn't matter.
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Sound and fury, signifying nothing. <#amigalikeOS> could support everything from current cards back and it doesn't matter.
Dunno what you just said, but I agree, the EU is bad Mkay!!! ;)
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Dunno what you just said, but I agree, the EU is bad Mkay!!! ;)
Saying you support XYZ new graphic card features is pointless as there's nothing for the various Amiga and Amiga-like OSes that support them. It's all well and good to have the proverbial "Crysis-Capable Computer" built that runs AROS, but Crysis - or games capable of pushing the hardware like it - simply don't exist for the OS.
There are a few ports of some games that use OGL and MiniGL features, and that's about it. No AC3, no Crysis 2, nada.
It seems to me that a push to get support from one of the larger software companies would be a bigger deal.
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Saying you support XYZ new graphic card features is pointless as there's nothing for the various Amiga and Amiga-like OSes that support them. It's all well and good to have the proverbial "Crysis-Capable Computer" built that runs AROS, but Crysis - or games capable of pushing the hardware like it - simply don't exist for the OS.
There are a few ports of some games that use OGL and MiniGL features, and that's about it. No AC3, no Crysis 2, nada.
It seems to me that a push to get support from one of the larger software companies would be a bigger deal.
Very true, but DOOM III is about to be opened sourced and I'm sure others games that take advantage of higher end graphics cards are not far behind, so having such drivers will be a major boon in that respect.
Also, the reason many of the Amiga OS variants do not have many 3D accelerated games and what not is because we have not all had access to 3D acceleration for a long time. No 3D support, no 3D port. Add 3D support, expect more 3D ports. :)
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No disrespect to the great work done on MOS 3d drivers and its 3d subsystem, but theyre a far cry from AROSes nouveau/gallium3d in some ways. Check out the graphics using pixel shaders in Assault Cube for example. Theyre simply not possible on Morphos (or OS4.x).
Maybe people should learn what theyre commenting on before they comment?
Great work Deadwood.
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No disrespect to the great work done on MOS 3d drivers and its 3d subsystem, but theyre a far cry from AROSes nouveau/gallium3d in some ways. Check out the graphics using pixel shaders in Assault Cube for example. Theyre simply not possible on Morphos (or OS4.x).
Maybe people should learn what theyre commenting on before they comment?
Great work Deadwood.
Both MorphOS 2D&3D drivers are far more stable than AROS ones. And also include overlay.
IMHO it's better to support few hardware pieces very well than supporting a wide range of hardware with less features than the hardware we used to have (PicassoIV/Cybervision3D already had Overlay 15 years ago)
I prefer having excellent support for a few ATI cards than supporting incompletely many brands&models.
BTW, good job, I'm happy for AROS users.
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:/ All this work on the latest-and-greatest nVidia cards and nouveau still doesn't have quality drivers for chipsets that have been around forever...
You are missing the point. Most people wanting to run AROS on PC will tend to have newer, not older equipment.
@nicholas
As for MorphOS, nVidia support would be nice but as all the newer cards tend to be PCIe, these advances are probably moot as there aren't any Macs supported by MorphOS that can take these cards. Unless I'm mistaken?
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You are missing the point. Most people wanting to run AROS on PC will tend to have newer, not older equipment.
@nicholas
As for MorphOS, nVidia support would be nice but as all the newer cards tend to be PCIe, these advances are probably moot as there aren't any Macs supported by MorphOS that can take these cards. Unless I'm mistaken?
I have an 7800gs in my g4 powermac that I'd really like to try Morphos on one day. :(
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You are missing the point. Most people wanting to run AROS on PC will tend to have newer, not older equipment.
Well good for them. Meanwhile, I'm stuck choosing between getting a big-ass 15" Powerbook that I know will work for non-OSX purposes because it has a Radeon chipset, and getting a more manageable 12" one that I think will work, but it has a GeForce 5200 and I'm hearing mixed things about nouveau's support for that GPU. Old hardware doesn't just vanish into the aether, and some of us would actually like to make use of it.
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I have an 7800gs in my g4 powermac that I'd really like to try Morphos on one day. :(
There are chances that you'll be able to use a Radeon9700 or 9800 by Christmas but I doubt nVidia hardware is supported in the future due to his closed nature.
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Both MorphOS 2D&3D drivers are far more stable than AROS ones. And also include overlay.
IMHO it's better to support few hardware pieces very well than supporting a wide range of hardware with less features than the hardware we used to have (PicassoIV/Cybervision3D already had Overlay 15 years ago)
I prefer having excellent support for a few ATI cards than supporting incompletely many brands&models.
BTW, good job, I'm happy for AROS users.
I'd like to know exactly how you can say MOS drivers are "fare more stable" than AROS ones just by adding that the latter don't support overlay (yet). MOS drivers may be more optimized due to the fact their development started far before the ones currently used by AROS, and that they are focalized on a lesser number of GPUS but... well, the world has a little changed in the meanwhile.
In the GPU market a graphic adapter gets old after 6 months and obsolete in 3-4 years. R200 cards (Radeon 7500/9200 and derivated) are now more than 10 years old, and dramatically less performant and feature-wise than current ones. You can't even compare their respective complexity. Short times between hardware refreshes means also a short time window for driver development, and common PC users are now expected to upgrade their video cards from time to time (generally speaking, every 24-30 months or so). How can you pretend to live with 10-years old sw/hw technologies forever in a similar market?
Gallium drivers might not be as optimized and fast like native ones (on the same platform), or like MOS R700 drivers in general, but they support far better and far more interesting technologies. The Nouveau driver might not support overlay at this stage (however, it's not only Nouveau culp), but Gallium supports shading language and as someone pointed before, it can be used to wrap Warp3D/Wazp3D functions over MESA, and hardware-accelerate all the applications using it on far more modern graphic cards.
I feel this a little more interesing than overlay, not counting that overlay is coming in the future, at least according to Nikolaos' efforts.
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Gallium supports shading language and as someone pointed before, it can be used to wrap Warp3D/Wazp3D functions over MESA, and hardware-accelerate all the applications using it on far more modern graphic cards.
Are you saying that Gallium has OpenCL now? As far as I can tell the GPGPU acceleration currently depends on the closed source proprietary drivers provided by the vendors (nVidia, AMD), even on Linux.
If you're just talking about shaders, well I don't find them so exciting, at least when considering the monster cards such as Fermi. If hardly makes a difference if you can render your game in 60fps versus 600fps.
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I'd like to know exactly how you can say MOS drivers are "fare more stable" than AROS ones just by adding that the latter don't support overlay (yet).
I have said that AROS drivers are more prone to crash that MorphOS ones. And in addition to that AROS drivers don't even support overlay. Read again what I wrote because I have never claimed that something is less stable due to lack of overlay.
MOS drivers may be more optimized due to the fact their development started far before the ones currently used by AROS, and that they are focalized on a lesser number of GPUS but... well, the world has a little changed in the meanwhile.
MorphOS drivers are not only more optimized but also more stable, that's my point. On the other hand if Gallium ever got very fast and stable it could be ported to MorphOS. But right now it doesn't make much sense (after all you can't plug in PCIe cards to a powerbook)
In the GPU market a graphic adapter gets old after 6 months and obsolete in 3-4 years. R200 cards (Radeon 7500/9200 and derivated) are now more than 10 years old, and dramatically less performant and feature-wise than current ones.
AROS drivers don't even support features from 15 years ago so please stop propaganda about "new features". Overlay IS an important feature.
You can't even compare their respective complexity. Short times between hardware refreshes means also a short time window for driver development, and common PC users are now expected to upgrade their video cards from time to time (generally speaking, every 24-30 months or so). How can you pretend to live with 10-years old sw/hw technologies forever in a similar market?
Amiga is a hobby and I'm not much concerned about "markets" or pc upgrade cycles. If drivers supporting latest features were so important for me I would be using Windows. Don't get me wrong, the more modern supported cards the better, but I prefer to have very good drivers instead of many modern cards half-supported.
MorphOS users interest is with R300 cards right now since that's what is included with Powerbooks and it's easy to plug these cards on Powermacs too. More modern cards may be interesting in the future but not right now.
I feel this a little more interesing than overlay, not counting that overlay is coming in the future, at least according to Nikolaos' efforts.
Better late than never :-)
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How can you pretend to live with 10-years old sw/hw technologies forever in a similar market?
Who's pretending? I've been living with outdated machines for a long time now. The newest thing I own is my Eee, which is coming up on three years old (four since the model's release, IIRC) and was underpowered even then. It suits my needs beautifully. I have a Power Mac G5, that has way more horsepower than I need, and it works just fine for me. Not all of us feel the compulsion to keep up with the absolute latest and greatest.
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Are you saying that Gallium has OpenCL now? As far as I can tell the GPGPU acceleration currently depends on the closed source proprietary drivers provided by the vendors (nVidia, AMD), even on Linux.
Well, OpenCL is an open standard, but implementations are obviously proprietary.
If you're just talking about shaders, well I don't find them so exciting, at least when considering the monster cards such as Fermi. If hardly makes a difference if you can render your game in 60fps versus 600fps.
One thing to remember is that OpenCL is merely a different programming interface to the same shader hardware (admittedly a much more convenient one and one that's becoming increasingly specialised) that regular shader programs use. Many compute tasks have actually been implemented using nothing more than basic GLSL.
It's gone now, but fractal.io (video here (http://vimeo.com/20687741)) was a fantastic demonstration of what can be achieved with nothing more than opengl shaders.
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Ha ha ha...
I should really watch what I say and how I say it. I didn't mean to turn this into a MorphOS vs Aros debate. :)
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I have said that AROS drivers are more prone to crash that MorphOS ones. And in addition to that AROS drivers don't even support overlay. Read again what I wrote because I have never claimed that something is less stable due to lack of overlay.
Ok, I had read wrong.
MorphOS drivers are not only more optimized but also more stable, that's my point. On the other hand if Gallium ever got very fast and stable it could be ported to MorphOS. But right now it doesn't make much sense (after all you can't plug in PCIe cards to a powerbook)
But there are Macs with Nvidia cards and you definitely don't need PCI Express to mount GeForce FX card, nor you need PCI Express for GeForce 6 and 7 carda, since there are (have been) AGP models available.
AROS drivers don't even support features from 15 years ago so please stop propaganda about "new features". Overlay IS an important feature.
It's important on low performance systems where 2D acceleration and video decode (which work with overlay) can help the central processor pleaying video clips. It's lesser important with strong CPUs which can easily decode a HD movie at full screen resolution without noticeable lost of frames. Honestly, sometimes I feel the need for overlay on my AROS netbook, but really rarely on my desktop systems. Anyway, overlay should come in the future, so I wouldn't cry too much about it.
Amiga is a hobby and I'm not much concerned about "markets" or pc upgrade cycles. If drivers supporting latest features were so important for me I would be using Windows. Don't get me wrong, the more modern supported cards the better, but I prefer to have very good drivers instead of many modern cards half-supported.
I can bet this will change the day MorphOS will be able to support Radeon HD and GeForce cards too.
MorphOS users interest is with R300 cards right now since that's what is included with Powerbooks and it's easy to plug these cards on Powermacs too. More modern cards may be interesting in the future but not right now.
Are you KIDDING or what?
Better late than never :-)[/QUOTE]
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Are you saying that Gallium has OpenCL now? As far as I can tell the GPGPU acceleration currently depends on the closed source proprietary drivers provided by the vendors (nVidia, AMD), even on Linux.
If you're just talking about shaders, well I don't find them so exciting, at least when considering the monster cards such as Fermi. If hardly makes a difference if you can render your game in 60fps versus 600fps.
What does OpenCL have to do with Warp3D/Wazp3D I was talking about?
Anyway, to answer to your question: AROS won't have OpenCL until someone will write a implementation of OpenCL for Gallium 3D. The good news, however, is that's technically feasible.
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What does OpenCL have to do with Warp3D/Wazp3D I was talking about?
Not much. I can't understand which Warp3D/Wazp3D applications you're talking about. Surely all AROS applications are using full blown OpenGL API rather than the half assed Warp3D one? I don't even remember any significant W3D applications barring some boring game ports and couple of scene demos. Accelerating those isn't that big of a selling point IMHO.
Anyway, to answer to your question: AROS won't have OpenCL until someone will write a implementation of OpenCL for Gallium 3D. The good news, however, is that's technically feasible.
Actually it has been worked on already, at least in part. I haven't heard anything about it for some time however.
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Actually it has been worked on already, at least in part. I haven't heard anything about it for some time however.
Work on OpenCL on Gallium3D is still progressing, last commit was only 4 weeks ago:
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/~steckdenis/clover/
Phoronix.com is probably the best place to read about updates to Gallium3D, here's a OpenCL on Gallium3D news story from a couple of months back:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=OTgwOQ
HTH.
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But there are Macs with Nvidia cards and you definitely don't need PCI Express to mount GeForce FX card, nor you need PCI Express for GeForce 6 and 7 carda, since there are (have been) AGP models available.
But it's quite easy to find supported models with Radeon cards. And tower models can use AGP/PCI*Radeons so exchanging the gfx card is not such a big problem.
I can bet this will change the day MorphOS will be able to support Radeon HD and GeForce cards too.
If by "this" you mean "this hobby" I'm sure it wouldn't change much even if we had support for latest cards. No Amiga solution will ever be a "serious" alternative to Windows or even Linux.
2D support for RadeonHD is not such a big deal as 2D part seems to be more or less similar to previous versions. Initializing it through ATOM-Bios is relatively easy (although I don't know what is used on Mac). 3D part on R400 and R500 models is AFAIK an evolution of R300 part so if very good R300 support is developed R400 and R500 drivers will have a good basis.
Many MorphOS users have a Mac Mini G4 with Radeon9200 and many more will have Powerbooks with R9700. These are the chipsets that matter right now because these can't be exchanged. Next MorphOS release 3D drivers for Mac Mini are so optimized that will probably match ATI developed ones in performance. I'm typing right now from a Mac Mini so R9200 is the chipset that I care for. R9700 is inside the powerbook next to me waiting for MorphOS and that's the 2nd chipset I care for. Powermacs? I don't think I get one but If I did I could survive with a Radeon9800.
Are you KIDDING or what?
I'm not, as I have explained above high quality R200 and R300 support is more important than supporting R400 or R500 because most of MorphOS users will need R200&R300 and not later models.
I'm not concerned about Warp3D performance at all because Warp3D games used to fly even on old A4000 with CSPPC. Most are designed for Permedia2/Voodoo3. These games fly on my humble Efika so I don't know what's the fuss about that. Quake3 and Wolfenstein already run reasonably fast on my Mac Mini (and don't use Warp3D at all).
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Oh, that's what you are going on about. :)
Well graphic cards are pocket change anyhow, and besides, I don't think any of us MorphOS users are having any issues with our ATI cards. It's not any of us are trying to play Half-Life 2 or anything. :)
I have issues, have not been able to easily obtain working low profile card for my pegasos, it's a hit and miss archeology game on ebay. Kinda given up on the whole thing.
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I have issues, have not been able to easily obtain working low profile card for my pegasos, it's a hit and miss archeology game on ebay. Kinda given up on the whole thing.
Did you check for help on MorphOS Zone?
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I have issues, have not been able to easily obtain working low profile card for my pegasos, it's a hit and miss archeology game on ebay. Kinda given up on the whole thing.
That sounds like a bad excuse, it's really easy to find radeon 92x0 low profile models, even on ebay.no:
http://search.eim.ebay.no/?kw=radeon+9250&ect=&elc=92&eb=S%C3%B8k
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That sounds like a bad excuse, it's really easy to find radeon 92x0 low profile models, even on ebay.no:
http://search.eim.ebay.no/?kw=radeon+9250&ect=&elc=92&eb=S%C3%B8k
Noticed how those do not fit into the AGP slot of the Pegasos?
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3D part on R400 and R500 models is AFAIK an evolution of R300 part so if very good R300 support is developed R400 and R500 drivers will have a good basis.
I'm not, as I have explained above high quality R200 and R300 support is more important than supporting R400 or R500 because most of MorphOS users will need R200&R300 and not later models.
Personally, I have both R300 and R400 cards that will work in my Quicksilver.
I'd like to see the later.
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Ha ha ha...
I should really watch what I say and how I say it. I didn't mean to turn this into a MorphOS vs Aros debate. :)
You need to learn when you are trolling and not do that.
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Noticed how those do not fit into the AGP slot of the Pegasos?
I never had an AGP card that couldn't fit in my Pegasos. I used 2 Radeon9100 full size, 2 low profile Radeon 9250, 1 Radeon7500 low profile, 1 Radeon 7000 low profile, Voodoo3500... never had any problem
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=radeon+9200&_sacat=0&_odkw=radeon+9250+low+profile&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313
and here there are tons of low profile ones:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=radeon+9200+agp&_sacat=0&_dmpt=UK_Computing_Computer_Components_Graphics_Video_TV_Cards_TW&_odkw=radeon+9200&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313
I think it's really easy to find NEW Radeon low profile cards compatible with Pegasos but I guess it's easier to complain in public forums
PS: If it's so problematic to find one I can sell you a low profile R9250/128MB AGP that fits perfectly on Pegasos1 with odw-like case.
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Can the Pegasos use AGP8X cards like the Radeon 9800 or one of the R400 based cards?
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Can the Pegasos use AGP8X cards like the Radeon 9800 or one of the R400 based cards?
AFAIK it depends on voltages supported by the card. Some 9800 cards work, some doesn't. Check out morphzone to see if somebody had one and can tell you brand&model.
R400... I don't think these are supported in MorphOS yet even in 2D. The most modern core publicly shown is Radeon x600 PCIexpress on iMac G5, and that uses a R300 core.
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AFAIK it depends on voltages supported by the card. Some 9800 cards work, some doesn't. Check out morphzone to see if somebody had one and can tell you brand&model.
R400... I don't think these are supported in MorphOS yet even in 2D. The most modern core publicly shown is Radeon x600 PCIexpress on iMac G5, and that uses a R300 core.
Yeah, I talked to Frank about the R400 several months ago. At first, we weren't even sure that R400 based cards would work in a G4.
I re-flashed a FireGL X3 with a Mac X800XT BIOS and taped over pins 11 & 3 on the back side of the connector and when installed in my Quicksilver it works fine under OSX.
So we can assume that re-flashed PC video cards (R400) could be supported by MorphOS (even without G5 support).