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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: freqmax on September 30, 2011, 02:00:49 PM
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Seems the AAA chipset is the only unreleased one with documentation. Ranger and Hombre seems to lack any documentation. So who will be first to implement AAA in hardware? ;)
The Nyx prototype went for 2525.25 USD in april 2011..
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first one to do it wins a free pen!
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The Natami SAGA should be a more AGA compatible version of what AAA would have been. Modern hardware and fpga's make AAA performance possible without the trade-offs. Most AAA features are in SAGA. The Dave Haynie thread talked about the similarities of AAA and SAGA. Dave likes the Natami idea better than most of the other NG Amigas.
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The Natami SAGA should be a more AGA compatible version of what AAA would have been. Modern hardware and fpga's make AAA performance possible without the trade-offs. Most AAA features are in SAGA. The Dave Haynie thread talked about the similarities of AAA and SAGA. Dave likes the Natami idea better than most of the other NG Amigas.
What thread?
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Didn't Hazy Dave also say a $10 VGA card surpasses the AAA nyx?
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Another question.. is there even an operating system that would run on Nyx ?
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What thread?
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?p=631463#post631463
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Didn't Hazy Dave also say a $10 VGA card surpasses the AAA nyx?
Nowadays? Running circles around AAA.
AAA would have used an up to 64 bit bus with VRAM which might have been able to run at up to 50 MHz. That equates to a max throughput of 400 MB/s for the framebuffer/blitter (the synchronous) side. This is easily surpassed by any onboard graphics on a $50 mainboard.
The lowest spec Nvidia cards still being sold have 8+ GB/s throughput (which is about 10% of a somewhat decent card).
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I wonder if the Natami Team is going to release SAGA as Open Source to attract more developers to write programs that can use its features? With the FPGA Arcade Replay Board on the verge of becoming mass produced (compared to other projects in the Amiga market only), it probably has enough room in its FPGA to contain the SAGA code and could double or quadruple the number of computers that can run SAGA capable programs in the future, since the Natami will be a higher spec and higher priced product that will not match the popularity and wide spread distribution of the Replay board. (I am not saying that Natami won't be as popular in the Amiga community, but the Replay board is aimed at arcade enthusiasts outside the Amiga community as well as Amiga users)
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With the FPGA Arcade Replay Board on the verge of becoming mass produced (compared to other projects in the Amiga market only), it probably has enough room in its FPGA to contain the SAGA code and could double or quadruple the number of computers that can run SAGA capable programs in the future, since the Natami will be a higher spec and higher priced product that will not match the popularity and wide spread distribution of the Replay board.
By my guestimates, I'd say the Replay board won't have enough room for the SAGA chipset alone, much less the SAGA and the N050. Also, the SuperAGA chipset is being designed in AHDL so it will only work on Altera FPGAs without conversion to VHDL. The FPGA used in the NatAmi will have approximately 4+ times the capacity of the Xilinx one used in the Replay board. Of course that will cost more than the Replay board, but it will also be more future-proof. Just because the NatAmi is still in the alpha-test stages doesn't mean that it won't be useful to people outside the Amiga community as well.
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The coolest thing about AAA to me is that it would have mated with the all the experience Amiga coders had before with OCS and ECS using assembler. Mate that with the toaster and it's animation capabilities and it would have even enabled cooper based plasma effects (AAA cooper had much bigger resolution). It would have been king.
Today it's worth nothing but coolness factor, better move on with RTG and save energies to save the platform, there are no programs at all that will run on AAA, even if it's interesting:)
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AAA chip set, would like going back to a evga card in a PC today. No gain at all to anyone.
smerf
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AAA chip set, would like going back to a evga card in a PC today. No gain at all to anyone.
Particularly since there's no software that used AAA. If we can do better with other things, then it's a waste of FPGA space. It might be an interesting educational exercise to do it anyway, but it doesn't seem very practical since we don't gain any software for it. And, since there's other better things today, it's not practical to make it and then make software for it.
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Guess I'm slightly curious how it "would been" ;)
Anyway all building blocks of a core can be replaced. Just because there's AAA graphics core, doesn't hinder it's replacement with a plain "compile". Ie you can in essence select your cpu-gfx-sound combo at will.
For pure performance and compabiltity maybe it's better to plainly extend OCS/ECS/AGA modes with higher capabilities? HAM64? ;) or planar/chunky-24, more sprites etc.
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For pure performance and compabiltity maybe it's better to plainly extend OCS/ECS/AGA modes with higher capabilities? HAM64? ;) or planar/chunky-24, more sprites etc.
That's what the Natami is about! Use the old ideas and scale up to todays technology where practical. Example AAA like SAGA support...
Much faster and bigger gfx memory: Gfx memory will operate at the same speed as fast memory which is faster than any classic Amiga. 256MB means you won't run out until the Natami gets 3D ;).
Much faster blitter: The Blitter is used for 2D gfx and blitter objects (bobs) on the Amiga which should be much faster and allow virtually unlimited movement onscreen at typical Amiga resolutions.
Fast chunky modes: The Natami should support 16 and 32 and maybe 24 and 8. These allow read and write operations with 1 fast memory access. Very common on other platforms.
HAM modes: HAM64, really? The Natami will support HAM6 and HAM8. The team looked at adding HAM10 which would visually look nearly 24 bit while only using 10 bits per pixel. However, it's not an easy format to work with and bitmap structures only have room for 8 planes of data. Dithered 16 bit looks good enough, saves bandwidth and memory, and is much easier to work with.
3x8 byte mode: Gunnar likes this mode as it gives more colors for the bandwidth. Storing each color component separately has it's advantages but is generally more difficult to work with than chunky. It may be more useful separated as HSV than RGB.
Sprites: Sprites are much the same as AGA with less restrictions (i.e. palette). Adding more sprites or colors steals bandwidth when the blitter (bobs) is much more flexible and the Amiga way.
Planar+Chunky/Dual playfield: The Natami should allow planar gfx overlayed over chunky gfx for some interesting effects. Higher colors should be supported in dual playfield mode.
HSV/YCbCr: It's not been decided but some kind of mode(s) for video (mpeg) will probably be supported. Perhaps this will be allowed as an overlay (PIP) like PC gfx cards.
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By my guestimates, I'd say the Replay board won't have enough room for the SAGA chipset alone, much less the SAGA and the N050. Also, the SuperAGA chipset is being designed in AHDL so it will only work on Altera FPGAs without conversion to VHDL. The FPGA used in the NatAmi will have approximately 4+ times the capacity of the Xilinx one used in the Replay board. Of course that will cost more than the Replay board, but it will also be more future-proof. Just because the NatAmi is still in the alpha-test stages doesn't mean that it won't be useful to people outside the Amiga community as well.
I did not realize that the Natami FPGA was that much larger than the one used in the Replay board. I was not expecting the Natami N050, or N070 code to be used in the Replay board, just hoping that the SAGA code would fit. Maybe it will if the Replay board has the "to be released in the future" daughter card with an actual 68060 on board so that there is no 680x0 code in the FPGA taking up space?
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By my guestimates, I'd say the Replay board won't have enough room for the SAGA chipset alone, much less the SAGA and the N050. Also, the SuperAGA chipset is being designed in AHDL so it will only work on Altera FPGAs without conversion to VHDL. The FPGA used in the NatAmi will have approximately 4+ times the capacity of the Xilinx one used in the Replay board. Of course that will cost more than the Replay board, but it will also be more future-proof. Just because the NatAmi is still in the alpha-test stages doesn't mean that it won't be useful to people outside the Amiga community as well.
I noticed Jason McMullan is taking interest in developing for the Natami, which is great news!
With all this talk about AAA and SAGA and Natami being in alpha stage I was wondering how fast the FPGA chip is running at (over 145 mhz I hope) ... I would love to see a 1080p resolution for Natami.
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I did not realize that the Natami FPGA was that much larger than the one used in the Replay board. I was not expecting the Natami N050, or N070 code to be used in the Replay board, just hoping that the SAGA code would fit. Maybe it will if the Replay board has the "to be released in the future" daughter card with an actual 68060 on board so that there is no 680x0 code in the FPGA taking up space?
I have a correction to make. The FPGA we're using has only 3 times the capacity of the Replay, not 4+ times. If the SuperAGA was to try to fit on the Replay you'd have to ditch the 3D capabilities completely though.
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I noticed Jason McMullan is taking interest in developing for the Natami, which is great news!
With all this talk about AAA and SAGA and Natami being in alpha stage I was wondering how fast the FPGA chip is running at (over 145 mhz I hope) ... I would love to see a 1080p resolution for Natami.
The FPGA itself clocks more than 145 MHz but the N68050 CPU core will be more in the 133 MHz ballpark figure making it equivalent to a 75-100 MHz 68060. In time the N68070 will pick up some slack.
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I have a correction to make. The FPGA we're using has only 3 times the capacity of the Replay, not 4+ times. If the SuperAGA was to try to fit on the Replay you'd have to ditch the 3D capabilities completely though.
Losing the 3D capabilities would not make the effort to implement the rest of SAGA on the Replay board a waste of time. The whole idea I am trying to get across is that if the Natami Team will allow SAGA (without 3D) to be installed on the Replay board, it will give more people incentive and opportunity to develop games and apps that use the SAGA features.
I am a big fan of the Natami project and hope that they have great success in completing it and selling hundreds, if not thousands of them. It appears that it will not be until next year before any Natami systems are available to the general Amiga community, maybe longer if any complications come up that are harder to resolve than the team had imagined, so by getting programmers started with coding some SAGA apps and games on the Replay board, it will increase the amount of such software that will be ready when the Natami is finally ready for launching. Also, due to the increased cost of the Natami's larger FPGA and the rest of the components on it's larger motherboard, the Natami will cost much more than the Replay, so fewer people will be able to afford one and having SAGA programming available on the Replay will increase the number of potential programmers working with SAGA apps and games.
I see the Natami as what 99.9% of Amiga users wish had happened around 1992, not in FPGA form, but in spirit of additional features added to the Amiga hardware and additional features within AmigaOS to take advantage of a natural progression of the Amiga's AGA video and audio capabilities. It is not competitive with modern computers of the last ten years in hardware specs, but it is unique and should not really be compared to other computers. It serves only one purpose, to take the AmigaOS to the next step above where it was in 1992 to 1994.
I don't want a Natami with a PPC CPU or the capability to install the latest and greatest $400 to $800 video card. I want to see what AmigaOS3.1>3.9 can do with SAGA and the Natami Team's plans for the N680x0 soft core plus having built-in Ethernet and USB so modern peripherals can be easily attached and used, plus it is nice that it will also have ports to allow the connection of original Amiga keyboards and joysticks & mice.
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I agree with amigadave, both as an individual and as a Natami team member. Agreeing on common standards and common goals for the "new classic" projects is very important both for the success of the platforms and for the Amiga community. It creates a common software base and avoids software fragmentation. It also stakes out a way for developing the Amiga chipset further.
Even if the FPGAArcade cannot hold nearly all the features of the Natami in FPGA, agreeing that programming the hardware should be done in a certain way, using the new custom chipset registers for the same purpose and using the same data structures is very important.
SAGA specs will be available when the chipset has reached 1.0 and the systems are getting close to public release.
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Particularly since there's no software that used AAA. If we can do better with other things, then it's a waste of FPGA space.
Whether there is software is irrelevant, if you are going to implement functionality similar to AAA and have a choice of using AAA register formats or purposefully refusing to use AAA register formats then its cooler to use the AAA formats.
The choice then becomes what part of AAA would you implement. I think >8bit is definately what everyone wants. Then you've got the improved blitter & copper.
I understand the pro's and con's of both sides of the argument.
You could also take the actuator concept and just use a seperate video chip, with an AGA renderer into graphics ram for backward compatibility. There are alot of options for a no compromise solution.
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I agree with amigadave, both as an individual and as a Natami team member. Agreeing on common standards and common goals for the "new classic" projects is very important both for the success of the platforms and for the Amiga community. It creates a common software base and avoids software fragmentation. It also stakes out a way for developing the Amiga chipset further.
Even if the FPGAArcade cannot hold nearly all the features of the Natami in FPGA, agreeing that programming the hardware should be done in a certain way, using the new custom chipset registers for the same purpose and using the same data structures is very important.
SAGA specs will be available when the chipset has reached 1.0 and the systems are getting close to public release.
This is good news to hear from one of the Natami Team members! I hope that you (the team members working on Natami) will not wait until it is almost ready to release, as I wrote that releasing it now, or in the near future will have the advantage of getting some programmers to start coding apps and games that can take advantage of these newer SAGA features so that there are some SAGA compatible apps and games written before the Natami is available and when it is finally released, there will be some SAGA apps and games available to show off the newer capabilities.
Also, though I know that too many cooks can ruin the stew, it might be good for the Natami Development Team to accept ideas and discussion regarding adding new SAGA features from talented Amiga developers who are not on the Natami Dev. Team. The Natami Team members can choose to accept or reject any ideas they don't think are feasible, or don't create significant benefits compared to the amount of work or resources they require to implement. Outside developers and hardware technicians may also provide key information, coding, or ideas that will help the Natami Team to complete the work on SAGA faster.
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Ingredients:
100 gm plain flour
50 gm whole meal flour
2 teaspoons baking powder
2 banana, ripe
50 gm sugar
1 egg
2 tablespoons vegetable oil
50 gm walnut
2 drops vanilla essence
1/2 teaspoon ground cinnamon
1/2 teaspoon nutmeg
6 muffin paper cup
Instructions:
Step 1 - Preheat oven to 180 C
Step 2 - Mix plain, whole wheat flour, ground cinnamon and baking powder together
Step 3 - Chop walnut
Step 4 - Skin banana and cut into thin slices and then mash up
Step 5 - Beat egg with sugar then add vegetable oil, vanilla essence and mashed up banana then mix well
Step 6 - Divide flour mix into 2 equal portions. Gradually mix in
Step 7 - Add diced walnut
Step 8 - Distribute evenly into 6 muffin paper cups
Step 9 - Bake for 15-20 minutes
Step 10 - Eat
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This is good news to hear from one of the Natami Team members! I hope that you (the team members working on Natami) will not wait until it is almost ready to release, as I wrote that releasing it now, or in the near future will have the advantage of getting some programmers to start coding apps and games that can take advantage of these newer SAGA features so that there are some SAGA compatible apps and games written before the Natami is available and when it is finally released, there will be some SAGA apps and games available to show off the newer capabilities.
SamuraiCrow is also a Natami Team member. I agree with you about creating a SAGA standard that any fpga can use. I think there should be an enhanced 68k standard that at least adds ColdFire support. These few useful instructions are already supported in some assemblers, compilers, etc. and only need to be enabled. We came up with a few other instructions that would also be great potential 68k enhancements. I think the fpga Arcade folks see their machine as more for retro game enthusiasts that would not want such enhancements but rather maximum compatibility. I think they are wrong. I think it's possible to have excellent compatibility and the enhancements. How do we convince them? Start a poll?
"Would you like SAGA enhancements in the fpga Arcade?"
"Would you like 68k CPU enhancements in the fpga Arcade?"
"Both please!"
"Neither, I only play retro games and demand exact emulation."
"I don't care and won't be buying an fpga Arcade."
"Pancakes!"
Also, though I know that too many cooks can ruin the stew, it might be good for the Natami Development Team to accept ideas and discussion regarding adding new SAGA features from talented Amiga developers who are not on the Natami Dev. Team. The Natami Team members can choose to accept or reject any ideas they don't think are feasible, or don't create significant benefits compared to the amount of work or resources they require to implement. Outside developers and hardware technicians may also provide key information, coding, or ideas that will help the Natami Team to complete the work on SAGA faster.
The Natami Team has been very open to suggestions on their web site and have received some very good ones from some very talented Amiga programmers. The Team is very busy right now so don't expect a huge response at the moment.
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SAGA but be nice, but unless the spec is released. It doesn't exist in practice for the majority.
As to what capabilities to implement. The things that ease the burden of the CPU most is the ones that should be given priority. And consideration has to be taken such that feature additions and changes won't be locked out by current API.
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SAGA is written in AHDL which is only compatible with Altera FPGAs. It would have to be completely re-written in VHDL or Verilog to use with an Xilinx FPGA like in the FPGA Arcade.
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I talk about hardware API specification, that is registers etc.. and what they do. Actual implementation is another story.
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Didn't Hazy Dave also say a $10 VGA card surpasses the AAA nyx?
AAA as it would have been implemented in the 90s would be surpassed by even integrated Intel graphics nowadays.
SAGA as implemented in the Natami should be a lot faster than what AAA would have been, even if it isn't exactly what AAA was specced as.
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I couldn't care less about shiny new (never shipped on stock Amiga's) gfx modes and such in these new PGA implementations, tbh. Been a lot of years since I had any interest in gaming on the Amiga. I know I am likely in the minority there, after seeing the success of stuff like the Minimig - so no disrespect intended to you retro gaming dudes in the least..
Give me: A next gen Amiga that can take modern peripherals - USB sticks, has ethernet onboard, modern graphics ports/flickerfixers - running the classic C= OS. Small, quiet, power efficient, and most importantly rock solid.
Not limited to being a gaming box only, but something I wish I had in the mid 90's. A complete Amiga.
Most people around here know me as "The BBS guy". I spent countless hours messing around with the old 'miggy BBS programs, despite the fact my BBS's only get 20 telnet calls a month, lol.
I am looking VERY forward to Natami and FPGA Arcade (with the daughtercard) as a solution to replacing a UAE box or old finicky hardware.
For all the merits of MorphOS, OS4 and AROS - nothing to me beats good old WB 3.x from a pure pleasure aspect on the user end. Having such a machine at a reasonable price that runs rock solid is something the community has been seeking for a very long time. As good as UAE, Amikit, Amithlon and the emulation software is, even with direct boot into WB (never seeing the host OS), it still "isn't the same", you know?
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Particularly since there's no software that used AAA. If we can do better with other things, then it's a waste of FPGA space. It might be an interesting educational exercise to do it anyway, but it doesn't seem very practical since we don't gain any software for it. And, since there's other better things today, it's not practical to make it and then make software for it.
You have to think that this SAGA or whatever this Natami chip is called,is in the same boat.
Whats the point in it, when current Amiga graphic cards can out perform it ?
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I figure the new implementations of the Amiga gfx advancements like AAA are just an homage to what "could have been", a spiritual successor, tbh. I'd be very surprised if there is ever much software that takes advantage of it, but as long as it maintains backwards compatibility, all good by me.
Unless SAGA hits multiple platforms on these new gen Amiga's besides the Natami, I don't see it getting much use. If such things are limited to just the newer FPGA Amiga's, there's really a limited market.
Then again, I'm not their target market, as I'm not a gamer and I'd be content with running a "modern" Amiga under barebones lowres low color WB 3.1 anyways.
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Yeah, software support beyond OCS/ECS/AGA is likely almost nonexistent ;)
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Unless SAGA hits multiple platforms on these new gen Amiga's besides the Natami, I don't see it getting much use. If such things are limited to just the newer FPGA Amiga's, there's really a limited market.
I doubt we will see much that bangs the hardware in the old fashioned sense, we are probably a decade to late for that to be much of a success. But I do expect SAGA to get a lot of easily converted opensource ports from linux and windows, blender, browsers, various emulators etc.
If these SAGA machines are a decent price, and speed, I could quite happily use one for web browsing and art programs again, and the odd game of quake2 and 3 would not go amiss either.
Having a modern machine, without having bits of hardware hanging off my Amiga would be nice, and if the demo scene gets on board, i'll be even happier.
I have the sneaking suspicion that NatAmi is going to be very expensive though.
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I doubt we will see much that bangs the hardware in the old fashioned sense, we are probably a decade to late for that to be much of a success. But I do expect SAGA to get a lot of easily converted opensource ports from linux and windows, blender, browsers, various emulators etc.
The Windows and Unix environment lacks the low latency architecture of AmigaOS because they for one thing operate in protected mode and uses kernel APIs.
Software doing the assembler pook & peek will still run circles around other other programming methods. It's rather different than "too late". If you want to put the effort in to code is another story ;)
I think RTG might be a way around software compatibility.
What do you think of AROS 68k ?
I have the sneaking suspicion that NatAmi is going to be very expensive though.
I think it will be late to the party and expensive. And liable to any whims from Altera.
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By too late, I mean all the coders have moved on, and we have very few left, and they are spread over several different flavours of 'Amiga' already.
As for coding, afraid it's all I can do to keep up with 3D software for day job, learning to code is pretty much out of my league, skills and time wise (all though books and disks for Blitz, Amos and C++ show my unsuccessful attempts!).
Yes, SAGA RTG modes are why I think we will get some ports.
I quite like Aros, I use it a lot. But I would also like a native Amiga version....or a new native Amiga for Aros ;)
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There already is a bootable AROS 68k version since many months ago.
For 3D.. try OpenGL ;)
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.....I think there should be an enhanced 68k standard that at least adds ColdFire support. These few useful instructions are already supported in some assemblers, compilers, etc. and only need to be enabled. We came up with a few other instructions that would also be great potential 68k enhancements. I think the fpga Arcade folks see their machine as more for retro game enthusiasts that would not want such enhancements but rather maximum compatibility. I think they are wrong. I think it's possible to have excellent compatibility and the enhancements. How do we convince them? Start a poll?
There are a few people working on 68k softcores separately and AFAIK they are all adding some extra instructions beyond 68000 and even 68020, but I don't see much point in adding Coldfire support to a system that is going to have its CPU inside the FPGA, unless there is some Amiga software already written that needs certain Coldfire instructions. Or if adding Coldfire instructions will allow new software to be written more easily than could be done with 680x0 instructions alone. As for starting a poll to convince the FPGA Arcade inventor of anything, I would say no. I have not seen anything written by MikeJ that indicates he is limiting the use of the Replay board in any way and anyone can modify what is loaded into the FPGA to do anything they want. Just don't expect MikeJ to do it for you if you want something different than what he is offering.
SAGA is written in AHDL which is only compatible with Altera FPGAs. It would have to be completely re-written in VHDL or Verilog to use with an Xilinx FPGA like in the FPGA Arcade.
I am not familiar with AHDL, VHDL, or Verilog code, but I would be surprised if there is no conversion utilities available and that it would have to be completely re-written from scratch.
AAA as it would have been implemented in the 90s would be surpassed by even integrated Intel graphics nowadays.
SAGA as implemented in the Natami should be a lot faster than what AAA would have been, even if it isn't exactly what AAA was specced as.
Yes, SAGA will be much better and faster than what AAA would have been, but still SAGA should not be compared to any other PC graphics system or card of today. It is not being developed to compete with today's standards, but to provide the best and fastest "Amiga" experience. An expansion of 1985 technology to see how far that old tech can be pushed forward, not to change it into something more similar to what is available today.
.....Whats the point in it, when current Amiga graphic cards can out perform it ?
The point is to advance the Amiga chipset past the point that Commodore ever developed it, so that people that still want to tinker with, and code for the original Amiga in the same way it worked from the beginning, can work with something that is faster and better than the original OCS, ECS & AGA systems. It is not for everybody, but a lot of current and former Amiga users are excited about seeing what "Might Have Been", if only things had been run differently at Commodore.
I figure the new implementations of the Amiga gfx advancements like AAA are just an homage to what "could have been", a spiritual successor, tbh. I'd be very surprised if there is ever much software that takes advantage of it, but as long as it maintains backwards compatibility, all good by me.
Unless SAGA hits multiple platforms on these new gen Amiga's besides the Natami, I don't see it getting much use. If such things are limited to just the newer FPGA Amiga's, there's really a limited market.
Then again, I'm not their target market, as I'm not a gamer and I'd be content with running a "modern" Amiga under barebones lowres low color WB 3.1 anyways.
SAGA is an improvement for a fraction of an already tiny niche market. The number of programmers that will be interested in writing even one line of code that takes advantage of SAGA will probably by counted in dozens, not hundreds or thousands. But, as there are more and more people that return to retro interests, the number of programmers may actually grow over time. When you start with only a handful of programmers that are interested, it is easy to go up from there.
Yeah, software support beyond OCS/ECS/AGA is likely almost nonexistent ;)
Yes, the there is room for growth as more Amiga users see what can be done with the new features of SAGA.
I doubt we will see much that bangs the hardware in the old fashioned sense, we are probably a decade to late for that to be much of a success. But I do expect SAGA to get a lot of easily converted opensource ports from linux and windows, blender, browsers, various emulators etc.
If these SAGA machines are a decent price, and speed, I could quite happily use one for web browsing and art programs again, and the odd game of quake2 and 3 would not go amiss either.
Having a modern machine, without having bits of hardware hanging off my Amiga would be nice, and if the demo scene gets on board, i'll be even happier.
I have the sneaking suspicion that NatAmi is going to be very expensive though.
Although the Natami will be much more capable than older Classic Amigas, it will still not be competitive with other alternatives for web browsing and picture processing power, so if that is what you are looking for, it will always be a disappointment when compared to modern computers and OSes.
There won't be many people that want to write new code to "bang the hardware" like many 1980's & 1990's programmers did, but there will be some and I do think that this ability is one of the Natami's selling points.
As for price, any small production run, custom computer system is going to be very expensive when compared to something else of similar power that is being manufactured in numbers that are thousands of time higher.
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Although the Natami will be much more capable than older Classic Amigas, it will still not be competitive with other alternatives for web browsing and picture processing power, so if that is what you are looking for, it will always be a disappointment when compared to modern computers and OSes.
There won't be many people that want to write new code to "bang the hardware" like many 1980's & 1990's programmers did, but there will be some and I do think that this ability is one of the Natami's selling points.
As for price, any small production run, custom computer system is going to be very expensive when compared to something else of similar power that is being manufactured in numbers that are thousands of time higher.
The Amiga tends to punch above it's weight in what it can do, and I think a very fast 060 derivative with 24bit colour would do me fine for web browsing. I don't care about flash html5 etc.
I've got a couple of fast PC's for 3D rendering, But for 2D indexed coloured stuff, I still love using my Amiga.
As for price, i guess because it's FPGA it will be expensive. But custom hardware does not have to be, the Pandora and raspberry Pi aren't for example.
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I wasn't going to wade in here but ...
The NatAmi board uses a Cyclone IV EP4CE40 device (currently). This has 39,600 LE (Flop + Logic element) and 1.134 MBit internal memory.
The FPGAArcade Replay board uses a Spartan3e1600 device. This has 13,752 Slices, but each slice has 2 logic and 2 flops, so that gives about 29,504. It has 0.66 MBit internal memory.
I had a quick look at the timing data, the Cyclone is probably slightly faster - but there is not much in it.
The NatAmi team can fit a larger FPGA, true, but their device is already significantly more expensive than the Spartan3e. I believe getting a low cost and mass production is more important at this point.
Writing in AHDL is rather painful, but there are tools to convert from AHDL to VHDL.
I used to design 3D graphics hardware. I have a lot of respect for the designers working on NatAmi, but with this FPGA they will do well to match the performance of a 10 year old GPU.
For me, the aim is to get a highly accurate, high performance 68020 grade processor which high resolution, high bit depth screen modes (with a few hardware tricks thrown in).
I have to get back to testing me boards ....
Best.
MikeJ
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I should add that all the code will be open sourced, so if anybody wants to port additional features they are very welcome to.
/Mike
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Computers for the masses (deja vu) ;)
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As pointless as my question may seem: is there an intention to implement a Super Famicom, as well?... (but I was also thinking: and then where do you plug the joypads?)
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Famicon is not an Amiga system.
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There are a few people working on 68k softcores separately and AFAIK they are all adding some extra instructions beyond 68000 and even 68020, but I don't see much point in adding Coldfire support to a system that is going to have its CPU inside the FPGA, unless there is some Amiga software already written that needs certain Coldfire instructions. Or if adding Coldfire instructions will allow new software to be written more easily than could be done with 680x0 instructions alone. As for starting a poll to convince the FPGA Arcade inventor of anything, I would say no. I have not seen anything written by MikeJ that indicates he is limiting the use of the Replay board in any way and anyone can modify what is loaded into the FPGA to do anything they want. Just don't expect MikeJ to do it for you if you want something different than what he is offering.
Adding Coldfire instructions would allow libraries of Coldfire software (often more modern than 68k code for things like audio or video processing) to be used on the Amiga. Some developers may be attracted to cheap development platforms for Coldfire or even use the whole board for small production imbedded systems or kiosks. These instructions are useful on the Amiga providing a speed up and better code density (especially mvs and mvz). What is the cost to add 99% compatibility with another processor? Just the logic needed to add 7 simple instructions (bitrev, byterev, ff1, mov3q, mvs, mvz, and sats) that are processed in similar ways to existing 68k instructions. The Natami Team has also looked at other simple additions like allowing address registers in EA fields which might not cost any logic, a dbcc.l instruction and bcc instructions using bit 0 of the branch address for longer branches or static branch prediction (my choice), a compression method for long immediate values, etc. I would expect 5-10% better code density, a nice speedup and easier programming. Compilers like vbcc and gcc already have Coldfire support that just needs to be turned on for some benefit. It's easy to be short sighted but if some developer ordered several thousand of an fpga based board because of a little more effort to support more than games, it could help bring the price down for everyone.
The NatAmi team can fit a larger FPGA, true, but their device is already significantly more expensive than the Spartan3e. I believe getting a low cost and mass production is more important at this point.
I think the cost is going to be more important in this economy. The fpga Arcade should easily out sell the Natami. If they were much cheaper or I was much richer, I would buy several as Christmas presents ;). I will probably buy a Natami and fpga Arcade. I will wait for either the 68060 expansion board or Coldfire support in the fpga processor though.
I used to design 3D graphics hardware. I have a lot of respect for the designers working on NatAmi, but with this FPGA they will do well to match the performance of a 10 year old GPU.
I agree, but this is not so bad. There are some pretty powerful gfx cards that are 10 years old and the AmigaOS doesn't have much overhead when using them. I want gfx support that is well documented and easy to program which I am willing to trade for some speed.
For me, the aim is to get a highly accurate, high performance 68020 grade processor which high resolution, high bit depth screen modes (with a few hardware tricks thrown in).
I'm glad we've moved from the 68000 to the 68020. It's much more powerful and easier to program. It would be better yet with Coldfire instructions ;).
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Adding Coldfire instructions would allow libraries of Coldfire software (often more modern than 68k code for things like audio or video processing) to be used on the Amiga. Some developers may be attracted to cheap development platforms for Coldfire or even use the whole board for small production imbedded systems or kiosks.
Makes sense!
I agree, but this is not so bad. There are some pretty powerful gfx cards that are 10 years old and the AmigaOS doesn't have much overhead when using them. I want gfx support that is well documented and easy to program which I am willing to trade for some speed.
Less is more, and a slim design might be a value on its own. Especially if one makes a laptop version. Think 10 hour laptop, because the Amiga uses less power than a PC.
One could also ask, what do we really need?, when OCS/ECS/AGA is covered, 99% of the software should work too.
I'm glad we've moved from the 68000 to the 68020. It's much more powerful and easier to program. It would be better yet with Coldfire instructions ;).
As a bonus the FPGA 68020 isn't limited to 68020 speed. Some previous benchmark shows FPGA-Arcade will beat a A4000T setup.
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Famicon is not an Amiga system.
I think he was asking about an additional core that could be used in the FPGA Arcade Replay Board instead of the MiniMig core, as the intent of the Replay board is to allow re-implementation of many different systems, including Arcade systems.
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Just to clear some things up.
The NatAmi board uses a Cyclone IV EP4CE40 device (currently). This has 39,600 LE (Flop + Logic element) and 1.134 MBit internal memory.
As explained several times before on the Natami forums and elsewhere, the EP4CE40 is only on the first handful of boards Thomas soldered together. This was because the actual FPGA we wanted to use (EP4CE55) was not available at the time and we wanted to start testing systems quickly. However, all new systems (the MX board on my desk here too) are using the EP4CE55 with 55,856 LE and 2,340 MBit memory. Expect it to be filled to the brim with logic...
So your points on affordability are even more valid, since the EP4CE55 is a bit more pricey :)E
Whats the point in it, when current Amiga graphic cards can out perform it ?
The main point is actually doing things the Amiga way in the design spirit of the original Amiga. While RTG graphics cards might have been a good solution for upgrading a system that never evolved because Commodore just couldn't manage it, they are still just PC graphics chips stuck to your Amiga with duct tape, software supported with ugly hacks.
Now we actually have the chance as hobbyists to rewrite a bit of history and make a proper implementation of truecolor chunky graphics as native Amiga graphics modes as well as extended planar modes. It might not mean much for the user who couldn't care less how his web browser is drawn as long as it is fast, but it sure means a lot for people who enjoy the Amiga design philosophy and want to code for Amiga just like back in the old days. The other day we had planar graphics in SXGA up and running, for example.
This is good news to hear from one of the Natami Team members! I hope that you (the team members working on Natami) will not wait until it is almost ready to release, as I wrote that releasing it now, or in the near future will have the advantage of getting some programmers to start coding apps and games that can take advantage of these newer SAGA features so that there are some SAGA compatible apps and games written before the Natami is available and when it is finally released, there will be some SAGA apps and games available to show off the newer capabilities.
The people who have expressed interest to code for the dev systems are already on the team. If you are interested, join us :)
Also, though I know that too many cooks can ruin the stew, it might be good for the Natami Development Team to accept ideas and discussion regarding adding new SAGA features from talented Amiga developers who are not on the Natami Dev. Team. The Natami Team members can choose to accept or reject any ideas they don't think are feasible, or don't create significant benefits compared to the amount of work or resources they require to implement. Outside developers and hardware technicians may also provide key information, coding, or ideas that will help the Natami Team to complete the work on SAGA faster.
This is what the Natami forums have been used for the last few years, in case you missed it (easy to do so among the distracting Thierry rants, perhaps... :) )
NT
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Makes sense!
Less is more, and a slim design might be a value on its own. Especially if one makes a laptop version. Think 10 hour laptop, because the Amiga uses less power than a PC.
One could also ask, what do we really need?, when OCS/ECS/AGA is covered, 99% of the software should work too.
As a bonus the FPGA 68020 isn't limited to 68020 speed. Some previous benchmark shows FPGA-Arcade will beat a A4000T setup.
Makes sense ????? By that argument add and ARM, PPC and X64 support as well
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I think he was asking about an additional core that could be used in the FPGA Arcade Replay Board instead of the MiniMig core, as the intent of the Replay board is to allow re-implementation of many different systems, including Arcade systems.
Exactly.
Sorry if I didn't express myself clearly. I see that I've used the wrong thread, too; I should have posted in the FPGA one.
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Makes sense ????? By that argument add and ARM, PPC and X64 support as well
It makes sense to increase the number of instructions with ~5% from a overall compatible processor for the benefit of being able to use all the software for an additional architectecture ISA.
ARM, PPC, X64 all requires 100% instruction and design change. Coldfire is likely to not being even near.
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It makes sense to increase the number of instructions with ~5% from a overall compatible processor for the benefit of being able to use all the software for an additional architecture ISA.
ARM, PPC, X64 all requires 100% instruction and design change. Coldfire is likely to not being even near.
Agreed. The ColdFire instructions fit as valuable enhancements to the 68k and as encodings within the 68k. The encodings are described here...
http://www.freescale.com/files/dsp/doc/ref_manual/CFPRM.pdf
New encodings for the other processors would have to be created and often don't make sense or overlap with current 68k instructions in purpose. There is software that would be able to take advantage of the new functionality right away including vasm (and as a result vbcc) and a new version of ADis disassembler that I'm working on.