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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: TheBilgeRat on September 21, 2011, 03:19:09 PM
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Mods, please move if this is wrong area for hardware speculation.
Anyone know if there is going to be another run of Deneb? Vesalia is out with no estimated receipt date, and Amigakit has pulled them down entirely.
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We can only hope....if there is, I will be first in line to buy one!
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I think the Subway is still for sale, if you can get something with a clock port in your Amiga (like an Xsurf) I think you should be able to USB through that route...
Would not get my hopes up on a new DENEB run...
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Anyone know if there is going to be another run of Deneb? Vesalia is out with no estimated receipt date, and Amigakit has pulled them down entirely.
I don't think so.
I would like to see "DaVinci" see the light some day (with real PCI busmastering in ZorroIII and memory window and fake dma using rtg ram on ZorroII).
While we wait I would be glad to upgrade my Prometheus to "Firestorm" firmware. Perhaps Michael could send the prometheus upgrade file and cable to someone he trusts (perhaps an amiga distributor like Amigakit or Vesalia) and the person or distributor could perform the update. It's kinda sad that the update is ready but Prometheus users can't use it :-(
Another idea would be creating a small bounty to port MorphOS/AROS pci ohci/uhci/ehci device to OpenPCI so it works in OpenPCI supported platforms: Mediator with any card, upgraded Prometheus, perhaps GRex too, Amithlon, OS4...
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Well, dangnabit. An XSurf would be nice, but they're rarer than denebs and already fetch crazy prices. I think its going to have to be natami or nothing anymore.
There should be some method of doing group buy and small production run since the hardware is proven...
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£400 and you can have my Deneb. :)
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http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=655748&postcount=51
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Well, dangnabit. An XSurf would be nice, but they're rarer than denebs and already fetch crazy prices. I think its going to have to be natami or nothing anymore.
There should be some method of doing group buy and small production run since the hardware is proven...
I've seen the X-surf on Ebay and Amibay several times, I traded one for another ancient networking card just a few weeks ago... The DENEB on the other hand... best set (Poseidon+Deneb) for the Amiga ever IMHO, I've never seen traded anywhere.
NB. Doesn't the Buddha Flash of some version also feature a clock port?
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http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=655748&postcount=51
It looks like there's enough demand for another run, but I think the issue is one of parts availability.
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I would like to see "DaVinci" see the light some day (with real PCI busmastering in ZorroIII and memory window and fake dma using rtg ram on ZorroII).
!?Que?!
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That would surprise me, as the only real things present on the DENEB are a Spartan3 FPGA and some external Flash memory I believe... should be less of a problem than the stuff used to produce the ACA cards...
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!?Que?!
DaVinci is an unreleased PCI solution that is fitted on top of ISA slots (more or less like Mediator4000T) and connects the ZorroIII slot with the PCIs. The mechanical design was fairly nice and would have allowed fitting in all ZorroIII machines. Michael Boehmer worked on it years ago.
http://web.archive.org/web/20060509092954/http://www.fadbox.de/computercity/AHT/davinci.htm
(unfortunately web archive has not stored the images, the prototype shown provided 3 or 4 PCI slots)
It was supposed to have real DMA. With his experience with Deneb&Zorram I bet Michael could create a kick-ass solution with real DMA and a nice flashrom to store drivers (SATA, IDE, USB2, RTG, extra ram...).
If ZorroII was supported I guess old Elbox hacks like memory window and rtg ram dma buffer could be useful. Michael was unsure about supporting ZorroII but dreaming is free :-)
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It looks like there's enough demand for another run, but I think the issue is one of parts availability.
Well if you think that Deneb was out @ 2008 and it took 3 years for the stock to end... then what is the demand that could cover another run?
Don't get me wrong... I really wish that stuff like Budha's, Deneb, Indy's etc would produce forever, but I don't think that hardware producers out there are willing to invest for 20-30 pieces of hardware.
That's why Jens said that IF he decides to run another limited run of Indivision's for A4000D/CD32 it would only be based on pre-orders.
3 years was not a small timeframe (I got a Deneb for my A4000D that I sold, then bought another A4000 after 2 years and also got the chance to get one more Deneb).
Only pitty is for newly back-to-Amiga-scene members that don't have the chance for this magnificent hardware but eBay and outrageous prices. Old members should have grabbed a Deneb all this time that they had the chance. Chris also announced it almost a year ago!
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Seems easy to make something similar to the Deneb PCB (http://www.relec.ch/deneb_big.png) (warning big image!). It's a Xilinx XC2S50 speedgrade 5C. In essence the simplest the FPGA Xilinx has, it may even be out of manufacturing.
The large chip at the top-right is unreadable. But it's likely an USB interface chip. The smaller chip to the left-middle is however a question.
In essence DENEB seems to be a simple FPGA, USB interface and support circuitry like boot-EEPROM and power. So it's not that hard to make a replacement. Driver compatibility may be an issue though.
Creating a cable to upgrade the on-board EEPROM should be that hard either.
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cooperation between chris and miachel has come to an end, so the chance for another usb board from e3b is minimal if not null.
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Was it an amicable parting?
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Was it an amicable parting?
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=634923&postcount=11
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Well that answers that one. Cheers!
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Well if you think that Deneb was out @ 2008 and it took 3 years for the stock to end... then what is the demand that could cover another run?
You mention it below:
Only pitty is for newly back-to-Amiga-scene members that don't have the chance for this magnificent hardware but eBay and outrageous prices. Old members should have grabbed a Deneb all this time that they had the chance.
I think there are enough people returning, or enough people who didn't have a big-box machine at the time but now do, or enough people slaughtered by the financial crisis who have now recovered enough to buy one, to warrant another run. Things may take a while to sell, but they hold their value, as the absurd eBay market shows. (Meanwhile, you'd be lucky to get $30 for a 2008 PC graphics card.) Obviously someone with financial resources would have to commission a hypothetical Deneb run, as was the case with AmigaKit and the ZorRAM.
Chris also announced it almost a year ago!
You gotta admit, though, that message could have very easily been missed by would-be customers.
If it is true that the developers have had a falling out, that's very unfortunate for users and the market. I hope they can resolve it.
(Glad I got my Deneb when I did)
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German only, but in this short interview with Chris Hodges (plus a statement from Michael Boehmer) both parties make it pretty clear that there will be no further cooperation between them. Hodges even rules out cooperation through middle men.
http://www.amiga-news.de/de/news/AN-2011-09-00026-DE.html
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Interesting reading, thanks for that.
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How about Thylacine USB card? They still advertacing it???
http://thylacine.boing.net/
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Advertazing would definitly get your attention ;)
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I don't get it why some takes so long working on something like the daVinci and then lets it go without releasing anything. I mean, putting another priorities on top of it, sure, but abandoning it completely after being almost finished ?!
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Never heard of the DaVinci...what is it?
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Never heard of the DaVinci...what is it?
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=660458&postcount=12
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@RMK305
http://web.archive.org/web/20060509092954/http://www.fadbox.de/computercity/AHT/davinci.htm
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The Thylacine cards are all sold out too.
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BBoAH: Graphics Cards (RTG) AHT: daVinci, Zorro III (http://www.amiga-resistance.info/bboahfaq/index.php?action=artikel&cat=57&id=2415&artlang=en), 2xPCI, Zorro-III
Boing: Thylacine (http://thylacine.boing.net/), USB1.1, Zorro-II
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Michael Boehmer of E3B told me there cannot be another run of Deneb because he and Chris Hodges have fallen out over something.
I don't know the details (and I don't want to, it is a personal matter and should stay between them), I've talked to both guys over the years and both are really nice people so I'm sure it must be something they cannot get past.
The result is that Michael can no longer license Poseidon. Without a software stack he cannot sell Deneb.
As we all know, "Silicon without software is just sand" and so Deneb is gone :(
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That's really bad news. :-(
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Maybe users could cooperate to write their own USB stack which could be used with Michaels hardware?
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Maybe users could cooperate to write their own USB stack which could be used with Michaels hardware?
Poseidon is open source under AROS, minus a few drivers. Would just need to backport that.
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Ah well. Its sad, but I seem to put more and more weight on hopefully NAtami making it to prime time. Mainly in the hopes that I can finally snag some older hardware at less than "bend you over a chair" prices.
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Anyone care to translate the interview with Chris Hodges and comments by E3B from the link above. Google Translate did not do a very good job translating from German to English, or they were talking in code that I don't understand.
Also, why does Chris Hodges seem to have problems with hardware developers?
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Michael Boehmer of E3B told me there cannot be another run of Deneb because he and Chris Hodges have fallen out over something.
I don't know the details (and I don't want to, it is a personal matter and should stay between them), I've talked to both guys over the years and both are really nice people so I'm sure it must be something they cannot get past.
The result is that Michael can no longer license Poseidon. Without a software stack he cannot sell Deneb.
As we all know, "Silicon without software is just sand" and so Deneb is gone :(
It aggravates me how many developers in the Amiga community cannot seem to get along.
Ok, so E3B cannot license Poseidon; why can't the end user license it for themselves?
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Also, why does Chris Hodges seem to have problems with hardware developers?
Maybe it's Michael that have a problem with software developers?
You simple don't know what's up. Better leave it at that until we know. The only thing we know now is that we don't know the complete picture.
Anyway!
If only a few drivers is missing, then i should be easy to fix a working solution ?
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Maybe it's Michael that have a problem with software developers?
You simple don't know what's up. Better leave it at that until we know. The only thing we know now is that we don't know the complete picture.
Anyway!
If only a few drivers is missing, then i should be easy to fix a working solution ?
I would agree with you if Michael from E3B had problems before that stopped him working with other software developers, but I have not seen any such examples reported. Chris Hodges on the other hand has had disputes with at least one other hardware company, if not more (which seemed to be quite justified in my opinion) in the past and it just makes me wonder why this pattern has repeated itself. I am not laying the blame on Chris Hodges, but when the same, or similar problem occurs between himself and multiple hardware developers, it does raise questions.
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Or hardware companies have a business culture that clash with software development mindset.
I think the focus should rather be on fixing a solution than anything else.
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Or hardware companies have a business culture that clash with software development mindset.
I think the focus should rather be on fixing a solution than anything else.
Has anyone tried anaiis USB stack with the Deneb?
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Ok, so E3B cannot license Poseidon; why can't the end user license it for themselves?
In our (german) interview (http://www.amiga-news.de/de/news/AN-2011-09-00026-DE.html) Christoph already linked to, it has been made clear that there will be no business relation between PCP and E3B anymore, including for example third parties sub-licensing the Deneb card.
Therefore also end users buying Deneb and Poseidon separately themselves would cause E3B earning money thanks to PCP. Thus the only solution could be finding a comparably high-skilled developer like Chris Hodges writing Deneb drivers for an AmigaOS-backported version of Poseidon for AROS.
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Crazy! Why is there always a problem with USB on the amiga?
We should react with a petition to settle an arrangement between Chris and E3B.
The Deneb is the best amiga expansion ever, not only a USB board, but also a cheap network card, cheap soundcard and clockport expander.
I only own one, but i would like another and there is still a lot of potential sales.
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Thus the only solution could be finding a comparably high-skilled developer like Chris Hodges writing Deneb drivers for an AmigaOS-backported version of Poseidon for AROS.
That's not going to happen if there's custom hardware though; can't get a datasheet on an FPGA program, so can't write a driver.
The only hope is if the custom bit is transparent to the controller chip. If it is then I think I smell a bounty....
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Crazy! Why is there always a problem with USB on the amiga?
We should react with a petition to settle an arrangement between Chris and E3B.
The Deneb is the best amiga expansion ever, not only a USB board, but also a cheap network card, cheap soundcard and clockport expander.
I only own one, but i would like another and there is still a lot of potential sales.
Come on. Just leave it alone. There is nothing that will ever bridge that gap again. Regarding potential sales justifying a third Deneb production run: Looking at the figures of the last few years: Nope, I don't think so.
Just why do you think there won't be anything new on the horizon?
(PS: I don't think that using my track record of disputes in the past qualifies for judging who did what wrong in the E3B scenario.)
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@platon42
I'm sorry to hear that the relationship between yourself and E3B Has broken down - but good for you for remaining neutral and not turning this thread into a who said what game.
I was wondering, does this new move also affect users of the Subway, which is also an E3B Product?
Robert.
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@platon42
I'm sorry to hear that the relationship between yourself and E3B Has broken down - but good for you for remaining neutral and not turning this thread into a who said what game.
I was wondering, does this new move also affect users of the Subway, which is also an E3B Product?
Robert.
I would imagine that it affects future products, not products that are already in the hands of Amiga dealers waiting to be sold.
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(PS: I don't think that using my track record of disputes in the past qualifies for judging who did what wrong in the E3B scenario.)
Don't worry, i am not judging you, and i was on your side in the dispute with Elbox anyway.
But the Deneb is such a versatile and fast board that i am very sorry to not be able to buy a new one when i need, or to replace mine if necessary.
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That's not going to happen if there's custom hardware though; can't get a datasheet on an FPGA program, so can't write a driver.
The only hope is if the custom bit is transparent to the controller chip. If it is then I think I smell a bounty....
The datasheet on the USB interface chip should be retrievable. If one additionally traces the PCB one could create a new FPGA binary for the existing hardware. The other method is to debug the existing driver and use that as a reference to get the API, and build a new driver from that.
Neither is rocket science, it's just hard and takes some time.
These things will happen over and again as long as people let them self depend on closed software or hardware.
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Why not use ANAIIS? http://aminet.net/package/driver/other/anaiis
Or is it some how unuseable???
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The datasheet on the USB interface chip should be retrievable. If one additionally traces the PCB one could create a new FPGA binary for the existing hardware. The other method is to debug the existing driver and use that as a reference to get the API, and build a new driver from that.
Neither is rocket science, it's just hard and takes some time.
These things will happen over and again as long as people let them self depend on closed software or hardware.
The FPGA on the Deneb is pretty sophisticated. I don't think it would be easy to write a driver for it without docs. Then again, I wouldn't see a reason why E3B should not publish the necessary docs.
And speaking about reverse engineering to get the API: This is not necessary. The API is the same as in the AROS and MorphOS versions and I think the docs are in both the MorphOS SDK and AROS source tree. And you could still look at the open source code to find out the meaning and use of some device fields if they weren't already obvious. Ah yes, did I mention that the pciusb.device is also open source?
And about rocket science: A programmer was able to hack the deneb driver binary to some other SecretHardware(TM) within two days.
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Don't worry, i am not judging you, and i was on your side in the dispute with Elbox anyway.
But the Deneb is such a versatile and fast board that i am very sorry to not be able to buy a new one when i need, or to replace mine if necessary.
Seconded. I love my Deneb and I very much like Poseidon and Luciferin. I haven't had much time with my MacMini under MorphOS, but I see the USB interface is our tried-and-true friend.
I want more USB for my Amiga, one way or another.
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Why not use ANAIIS? http://aminet.net/package/driver/other/anaiis
Or is it some how unuseable???
It is not as good as Poseiden, but it is still being developed and it is free, so maybe someday it will be as good, or good enough to support most/all of the USB devices we want to use with out Amigas.
I hope that Chris Hodges will continue to develop software for AmigaOS3.x & 4.x, AROS, MorphOS, as talented programmers are too scarce these days in our tiny community.
Although I did raise question(s) about what was going on and why, I did not intend to offend Chris, or imply that he is the bad guy in any of this.
It is just unfortunate that this dispute has happened and that it separates two talented people from working together in the future.:confused:
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DaVinci is an unreleased PCI solution that is fitted on top of ISA slots (more or less like Mediator4000T) and connects the ZorroIII slot with the PCIs.
Based on the Prometheus, which rights I acquired at the time when Ron van Herk of Computer City and I had set up AHT Europe Ltd. (a company for mainly trying to market a PowerPC-based Amiga STB). My business partner of that time then passed it on to EHB for development of the DaVinci, but I don't know about the details of their negotiations. At least from my side there's definitely nothing holding DaVinci back, E3B is free to do with that stuff whatever they want.
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How many Deneb was sold ?
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It is not as good as Poseiden, but it is still being developed and it is free, so maybe someday it will be as good, or good enough to support most/all of the USB devices we want to use with out Amigas.
I hope that Chris Hodges will continue to develop software for AmigaOS3.x & 4.x, AROS, MorphOS, as talented programmers are too scarce these days in our tiny community.
Although I did raise question(s) about what was going on and why, I did not intend to offend Chris, or imply that he is the bad guy in any of this.
It is just unfortunate that this dispute has happened and that it separates two talented people from working together in the future.:confused:
as poseidon has been included in aros, it will eventually get backported to 68k, with any improvements that may have been done there. it remains open, so i dont exactly understand the tragic of the situation. what concerns chris, i think everybody has right to step down at some point rather than be obliged to support amiga to the end of his days, am i wrong?
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The datasheet on the USB interface chip should be retrievable. If one additionally traces the PCB one could create a new FPGA binary for the existing hardware.
I have - up to date - not received any request on documentation of DENEB for driver development. The documentation exists (well, it could be in a nicer form, and more detailed on some points, but ASCII never dies ;-) ) and will be made available to anyone who's interested in doing some driver work.
Datasheet of the ISP1760 (former Philips, then NXP, now Sony-Ericsson, tomorrow... good question) is available on the web, and for doing driver development you don't need to do any FPGA reverse engineering (which is, by the way, possible, but definitely not a real fun).
The FPGA "program" for DENEB (which is three programs, to be correct, one for Zorro III, one for Zorro II and Fast-Zorro II, and one for rescue mode) is quite complex. Especially the Zorro III image contains quite a few goodies which take care of certain Buster bugs, and just "writing a new FPGA image" will almost sure take some time until you have reached some stable operation, at least with one type of CPU cards.
Moreover, Zorro III is asynchronous by nature, and FPGAs are naturally synchronous devices, and I can only tell from own experience that Dave Haynie's notes on synchronization are worth reading... that's why the DENEB bus interface is running at 100MHz internally to get stable conditions on the bus.
Which reminds me - there was one attempt to design a Zorro III RAM card from some users while I was doing the ZorRAM design work. I have never seen any working card from that project, which was (if I remember correctly) using an FPGA as bus interface. Last things I heard there was "fast, but unstable operation"... typical symptoms of sync problems.
In total, it is about 500kB VHDL source code for Zorro III PIO and DMA operation.
And this code is not included in the documentation, for the same reasons why you can't get the source code of Poseidon hardware drivers - there's quite a lot of work and experience within ("closed" in your words).
These things will happen over and again as long as people let them self depend on closed software or hardware.
I think the problem here is somewhat more complex (and agree on that this is not the issue of that thread, but thinking of solutions to cope with the situation).
BTW, the documentation for driver development never was "closed" for any of the E3B products - at least if the chip documentation was not NDA'ed like the SUBWAY/HIGHWAY controllers at the beginning (it was released after some time, before we were simply not allowed to disclose it to third parties).
Michael
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If you can sell the plain hardware and provide the hardware API documentation as seen from a programmers view. And there exist free USB-stacks. Then the current USB option deficit can be solved?
If I would make an Zorro USB solution then I would stick to something that can be achieved with reliability, like plain Zorro-II. The rest can be dealt with a later time.
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Why not use ANAIIS? http://aminet.net/package/driver/other/anaiis
Or is it some how unuseable???
Sorry to interfere here, but if a programmer can write a piece of code to translate USBIOReqHCD or USBIOReq structs (OS4.0 Sirion compatible) into usb low level, it could work on ANAIIS!
The problem is that the programmer in question is not born.
ANAIIS can manage mouse, keyboard, printer, massstorage, joystick, so what else :) ?
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I have - up to date - not received any request on documentation of DENEB for driver development. The documentation exists (well, it could be in a nicer form, and more detailed on some points, but ASCII never dies ;-) ) and will be made available to anyone who's interested in doing some driver work.
Michael
im not sure if its neccessary but wouldnt you think it would be good to upload whats available and open of the documentation to aminet if only for safekeeping. in the end there was cases of documentation lost, that might be helpful at some point though.
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im not sure if its neccessary but wouldnt you think it would be good to upload whats available and open of the documentation to aminet if only for safekeeping. in the end there was cases of documentation lost, that might be helpful at some point though.
You don't seem to trust by backup system :-(
Michael
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I never trust any backup system...... especially on important data.
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I never trust any backup system...... especially on important data.
Blasphemy! "The Cloud" is absolute perfection!! Just ask anyone who had or has a SideKick, or anyone who used MobileMe.
Oh, wait.
/sarcasm :afro:
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It's true! I forgot The Cloud!
The Cloud solves all our problems. It even lets you magically edit photos seamlessly. Must be true because that nice Microsoft lady on the telly said so.
The cloud is the answer, ask any of the big IT corporations these days. Shame none of them seem to listen to what the question is....
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I never trust any backup system...... especially on important data.
I stored it on an iPhone, so I guess there's at least one backup at Apple... :-)
Michael
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@mboehmer_e3b
Any chance the DaVinci or something similar will make the light of day ?
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The Cloud is perfect when you want to invite state-, corporate-, crime and other spies into your data. Tracking and manipulation of your data etc.. Access dependent on your wallet and the employee turnover etc.
Someone that may need this data may come around when the original producer is no longer around.
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I have - up to date - not received any request on documentation of DENEB for driver development. The documentation exists (well, it could be in a nicer form, and more detailed on some points, but ASCII never dies ;-) ) and will be made available to anyone who's interested in doing some driver work.
Datasheet of the ISP1760 (former Philips, then NXP, now Sony-Ericsson, tomorrow... good question) is available on the web, and for doing driver development you don't need to do any FPGA reverse engineering (which is, by the way, possible, but definitely not a real fun).
The FPGA "program" for DENEB (which is three programs, to be correct, one for Zorro III, one for Zorro II and Fast-Zorro II, and one for rescue mode) is quite complex. Especially the Zorro III image contains quite a few goodies which take care of certain Buster bugs, and just "writing a new FPGA image" will almost sure take some time until you have reached some stable operation, at least with one type of CPU cards.
Moreover, Zorro III is asynchronous by nature, and FPGAs are naturally synchronous devices, and I can only tell from own experience that Dave Haynie's notes on synchronization are worth reading... that's why the DENEB bus interface is running at 100MHz internally to get stable conditions on the bus.
Which reminds me - there was one attempt to design a Zorro III RAM card from some users while I was doing the ZorRAM design work. I have never seen any working card from that project, which was (if I remember correctly) using an FPGA as bus interface. Last things I heard there was "fast, but unstable operation"... typical symptoms of sync problems.
In total, it is about 500kB VHDL source code for Zorro III PIO and DMA operation.
And this code is not included in the documentation, for the same reasons why you can't get the source code of Poseidon hardware drivers - there's quite a lot of work and experience within ("closed" in your words).
I think the problem here is somewhat more complex (and agree on that this is not the issue of that thread, but thinking of solutions to cope with the situation).
BTW, the documentation for driver development never was "closed" for any of the E3B products - at least if the chip documentation was not NDA'ed like the SUBWAY/HIGHWAY controllers at the beginning (it was released after some time, before we were simply not allowed to disclose it to third parties).
Michael
That was amazing!
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Just why do you think there won't be anything new on the horizon?
Not to be cranky, but why would anyone bother with R&D on some new widget when its infinitely cheaper to re-run a proven design? We'd all love to see some uber-awesome graphics/usb/net/sound all in one card with perhaps an 060 glued to its bottom, but the likelihood of that seems very slim, even with a wizard such as yourself designing cool stuff.
There needs to be a new model on how to build stuff for the retro community where the companies realize this isn't some ticket to the gravy train of profitability or the resurrection of "teh truu amieega", just some folks making awesome stuff for a dinosaur of a computer one order at a time.
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A fresh production run of timing-fixed A1200 motherboards would be cool too.
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timing-fixed A1200
What problem are you refering to ?