Amiga.org
Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Software News => Topic started by: danwood on August 29, 2011, 06:23:28 PM
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Just gone live on Hyperion's site, just log in:
http://hyperion-entertainment.biz/
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Hmm, they don't say what's new, no changelog.
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Hmm, they don't say what's new, no changelog.
From the readme;
5. What's new in this Update
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This is a (not necessarily complete) list of updated components
included in this update:
- Updated Installation Utility program.
- Updated PATA and SATA drivers.
- Improved DOS stability and speed.
- Updated copyright notices.
- Fixed Amiga shared object issues.
- Support for AmigaOne keyboards including boing key swap feature.
Set keymap_swapaltamiga to "on" in your firmware to enable.
- Updated Intuition and GUI components.
- New consistent full release string including update number.
- Updated Finnish keyboard support.
- Updated AmiSSL certificates.
- Updated USB stack with USB 2.0 (EHCI) support.
- Improved Sam460ex support including sound driver.
- I2C support for the Sam440ep and Sam460ex platforms.
- Updated and improved Warp3D support.
- Faster 2D graphics support.
- Various kernel fixes for increased stability.
- Updated MUI with many new features to make porting MUI 4.0 based
applications simpler.
- Improved notifications support.
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- Updated USB stack with USB 2.0 (EHCI) support.
(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/3142/amigaos41u3usb2.png)
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Gosh Piru, I never knew you had OS4!
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@Piru
I'm using a PS keyboard and mouse here and only have the A1's inbuilt USB so I can't test USB2 here.
Maybe it's because he's using crappy Apple hardware. :lol:
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All Sorted out, with the help of OS4 developers>
Re: Update 3 USB Crashes on launch
by danwood » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:13 pm
Ah that's sorted it, thanks.
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It's a bit puzzling why they have a beta tester program for the X1000, when they obviously don't believe in beta testing their stuff before releasing it to their customers. The number of posts from people having problem with OS4.1.3 struck me with surprise, as did the nature of the problems. Well, it seems like the people who gradually have been bringing Linux drivel into previous OS4.1.x releases, now have brought the world famous "Plug & Pray" concept as well. Wow, overwhelming...
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All Sorted out, with the help of OS4 developers>
Re: Update 3 USB Crashes on launch
by danwood » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:13 pm
Ah that's sorted it, thanks.
Well "sorting it" was disabling USB 2.0 support on my machine, I'm also having some server MUI issues, most MUI apps are failing, had to revert to Update 2 MUI classes, another user having identical issues, so we're trying to get to the bottom of it.
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All Sorted out, with the help of OS4 developers>
Re: Update 3 USB Crashes on launch
by danwood » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:13 pm
Ah that's sorted it, thanks.
Your posting this^^ message sorted it? Awesome, I'll have to try that with my mortgage company!
Looks like we're tracking these issues over on moobunny if the "developers" get a minute and want to take a look. Turning into quite a long thread actually:
http://moobunny.dreamhosters.com/cgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/201132.shtml
Well "sorting it" was disabling USB 2.0 support on my machine
On second thought I don't think I'll try this with my mortgage company.
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Well "sorting it" was disabling USB 2.0 support on my machine
Bummer, but not to worry, it seems their USB2 implementation wasn't really that fast anyway (maybe they are sending all the data over the serial debug as well? ;)), so maybe you aren't really missing out on anything here? And maybe they will make a 4.1.4 in a few months, who knows...?
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Bummer, but not to worry, it seems their USB2 implementation wasn't really that fast anyway (maybe they are sending all the data over the serial debug as well? ;)), so maybe you aren't really missing out on anything here? And maybe they will make a 4.1.4 in a few months, who knows...?
I'll be honest, not too fussed about USB, I only use it for mouse/kb. The MUI issue bothers me more, pretty much every MUI app locks the system up and crashes with the latest MUI for me and Voodoo (another user on AW).
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I'll be honest, not too fussed about USB, I only use it for mouse/kb. The MUI issue bothers me more, pretty much every MUI app locks the system up and crashes with the latest MUI for me and Voodoo (another user on AW).
Hmm, a problem indeed, especially considered the soon to be released (?) ports of Fab's Odyssey browser and mplayer version to OS4.1.3, that both needs the updated MUI-stuff AFAIK...?
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This is cool, but why do people need to be so negative?
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This is cool, but why do people need to be so negative?
It's not about positive/negative, but the fact that Hyperion now has released, to their paying customers(!), a piece of software that seems to be totally untested and probably not even finished developing in the first place. How they can do this is mind-boggling. They apparently are completely clueless. IMHO this puts the "X1000 booting OS4.1.3" thread in completely new light.
This must be the worst OS4 release *ever* (but what can you expect when you beg your paying customers to handle the OS development for you), it's obviously breaking the most fundamental and basic things for many users (like MUI and USB) that at least seemed to be working in OS4.1.2!
And this is how the Lead Developer comments this:
"Both IBrowse and YAM are 3rd party so I suggest you talk to the author(s) directly."
http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=271#p3491
I mean, OMG! Can't believe I'm reading that! Like: "We ****ed up the OS so the 3rd party apps you have been using for a decade suddenly don't work anymore, but that's not our fault". I'm out of words, don't know what to say. I'm just amazed...
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Well "sorting it" was disabling USB 2.0 support on my machine, I'm also having some server MUI issues, most MUI apps are failing, had to revert to Update 2 MUI classes, another user having identical issues, so we're trying to get to the bottom of it.
Wow, only Hyperion could come up with a USB 2.0 "fix" that requires you to shut off your USB 2.0 hardware. It's 2011 and and the rest of the world is already moving on to USB 3.0 and OS4 users are still waiting for USB 2.0 that just works. Come on Hyperion, you guys can do better than this for f@ck sake......
When did USB 2.0 support become mainstream for the rest of the world? Wasn't that around 1998?
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It's a bit puzzling why they have a beta tester program for the X1000, when they obviously don't believe in beta testing their stuff before releasing it to their customers. The number of posts from people having problem with OS4.1.3 struck me with surprise, as did the nature of the problems. Well, it seems like the people who gradually have been bringing Linux drivel into previous OS4.1.x releases, now have brought the world famous "Plug & Pray" concept as well. Wow, overwhelming...
I don't believe that there really is an X1000 beta test program. Has a single beta tester even stood up on this site and admitted they received a board for testing?
I think the whole beta test program is just more smoke and mirrors to make us believe there's been progress. A publicity stunt if you will. I realize they Hyperion and AEON would want to focus more of their resources on the X1000, but at the risk of alienating their base by releasing such a bug-ridden update 3? OS4's lack of apps and the lack of USB 2.0 support forced me to put my PegII into the closet over 2 years ago and it seems that nothing has changed.
So I've decided to sell my PegII (ODW) along with my licensed copies of OS4 and MorphOS. If you live in south Texas near McAllen/Mission/Harlingen, send me a PM. I'll let it all go for a decent price.
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It's not about positive/negative, but the fact that Hyperion now has released, to their paying customers(!), a piece of software that seems to be totally untested and probably not even finished developing in the first place. How they can do this is mind-boggling. They apparently are completely clueless. IMHO this puts the "X1000 booting OS4.1.3" thread in completely new light.
This must be the worst OS4 release *ever* (but what can you expect when you beg your paying customers to handle the OS development for you), it's obviously breaking the most fundamental and basic things for many users (like MUI and USB) that at least seemed to be working in OS4.1.2!
And this is how the Lead Developer comments this:
"Both IBrowse and YAM are 3rd party so I suggest you talk to the author(s) directly."
http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=271#p3491
I mean, OMG! Can't believe I'm reading that! Like: "We ****ed up the OS so the 3rd party apps you have been using for a decade suddenly don't work anymore, but that's not our fault". I'm out of words, don't know what to say. I'm just amazed...
You're making alot of assumptions here based on a few very early initial reports. Some of these issues have subsequently been solved by users, and are software issues based on what the user has changed in their system.
On a cleanly installed system (OS4.1 Update 1, then Update 2, then Update 3), most of these issues are not reproducible, which means something else is causing the issue, such as a old MUI class, old library version, broken sobjects, etc etc.
IBrowse works fine, FYI, if your system is installed properly.
So please hold back on your judgements until the dust settles and we can have a chance to analyze and assist users with their configurations and issues. It's quite possible it is not a problem with the OS itself.
The official support forums are on the Hyperion server so the technical support for paying customers is there.
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@ ferrels and takemehomegrandma
You guys are unbelievable! A couple guys run into some problems and you make it sound like everyone doing update 3 is trashing their installs and blowing up their hardware.
Tonight I plugged in my USB2 card and NZXT hub-multiplier, giving me a card reader and 3 USB2 case ports. I ran the update, rebooted and everything just worked. In fact, I had two USB sticks, an SD card and a camera all plugged in and showing up correctly at the samne time. The camera downloaded over 1200 pictures in less than a minute in Picture Tranfer Protocol to thumbnails.
This was while running and using the Timberwolf alpha from a while back, ImageFX, Abiword in Cygnix, Final Writer, AmigaAmp3 and Pagestream4. Obviously, both current and old stuff was working OK.
IT JUST WORKED!!!
I have not yet found a program that didn't work for me. The only glitch was with the color of pop-up menus in Simplemail. It showed the wrong color. Big deal! Take it and run with it. Why don't you start a new thread all about how horrible update 3 is because one graphic element in an MUI based program was off a little?!?!?
Stop spreading FUD.
Paul
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I don't believe that there really is an X1000 beta test program. Has a single beta tester even stood up on this site and admitted they received a board for testing?
I think the whole beta test program is just more smoke and mirrors to make us believe there's been progress. A publicity stunt if you will... .
I know it's just so baffling!! With all the positive comments on all the OS4 threads here I really don't understand why X1000 & OS4.x supporters don't come on this site more often:rolleyes:
Ya it must be smoke & mirrors to try to make the trolls believe that progress is being made:lol::insane:
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@ Piru
are you ok mate ??? it's not like you letting half an hour go by on a OS4.x thread without you so positively commenting on it:roflmao:
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Downloaded and installed OS 4.1 Update 3. Install was very straight forward.
Posting with OWB 3.31. Will test the rest of my software tomorrow evening.
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redfox
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When did USB 2.0 support become mainstream for the rest of the world? Wasn't that around 1998?
Hah, I wish. I've had 1.1-only machines as recent as 2004 (though that was a laptop.)
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And this is how the Lead Developer comments this:
"Both IBrowse and YAM are 3rd party so I suggest you talk to the author(s) directly."
http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=271#p3491
I mean, OMG! Can't believe I'm reading that! Like: "We ****ed up the OS so the 3rd party apps you have been using for a decade suddenly don't work anymore, but that's not our fault". I'm out of words, don't know what to say. I'm just amazed...
To be fair Commdore used to do the exact same thing. I think their term was the programmes were not "system legal" and leave it at that.
Patches would then be forthcoming or not.
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To be fair Commdore used to do the exact same thing. I think their term was the programmes were not "system legal" and leave it at that.
Patches would then be forthcoming or not.
There's a lot to be said for that policy, actually - if you've ever read about what an amazing amount of cruft Windows has built up over the years trying to maintain compatibility with software that doesn't quite stick to the standard, you can see the reasoning there. Inconvenient, to be sure, but on the other hand it goes a long way towards keeping the OS lean and mean.
(However, I have no idea to what extent AOS4 reflects that or not.)
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On a cleanly installed system (OS4.1 Update 1, then Update 2, then Update 3)
How do you install system "not cleanly"?
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I don't believe that there really is an X1000 beta test program.
I do, but it's not really about beta testing, but a pre-payment scheme to finance R&D and production of the X1000 board, since I very much doubt any bank would go anywhere near this. High stake gambling.
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How do you install system "not cleanly"?
A "clean install" usually means a stock install with no third party tools. So I'm wiping out my system and installing fresh installs this week.
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@ ferrels and takemehomegrandma
You guys are unbelievable! A couple guys run into some problems and you make it sound like everyone doing update 3 is trashing their installs and blowing up their hardware.
Not everyone, but certainly not "a couple of guys" either! If you browse the forums you'll be overwhelmed by the sheer amount of problems, and perhaps even more so by *the nature* of the problems. And this only in the first day after release. They can't possibly have done even the most rudimentary beta testing on this one.
I think it was said that this would mainly be a bugfix release, and frankly, there aren't that many *new* features in there, this was meant to clean up the mess form OS4.1.2. But not only did they manage to not get rid of all the old bugs, but also to introduce a whole generation of new ones!
With this kind of project management, the X1000 isn't heading for mass production -- it's mess production.
And when the lead developer starts blaming third party application developers for some of the most common apps suddenly not working anymore, then you understand the level of professionalism behind this mess. This is a kind of debacle that would lead to people getting fired -- had anyone been employed as professionals that is. But no, this is more like a roadshow circus on a hobby basis; "Wanna try out being a clown? Come join us! The result doesn't really matter, only that we have fun in the process."
[youtube]tNti5bN9ILU[/youtube]
OK, so when will they squeeze out OS4.1.3.1 to correct this?
Just two more weeks?
:rolleyes:
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A "clean install" usually means a stock install with no third party tools. So I'm wiping out my system and installing fresh installs this week.
If that would have been a requirement, they should have released it as an ISO instead. Wiping you HDD clean, installing OS4.1.0, OS4.1.1 on top of that, OS4.1.2 on top of that, just to be able to install OS4.1.3 on top of that is just hilarious!
ssolie wrote:The update will be distributed as a downloadable archive only. There is no ISO option.
That's a shame. I've been waiting for update 3 to come out before I setup my Sam but I was looking forward to the simplicity of doing a clean install from 1 CD instead of having to install and then update.
You double click the Update 3 install icon and hit next a few times. I think you can handle it. :p
Link (http://wap.amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=34078&forum=14&start=40&viewmode=flat&order=0#625301)
Since the requirements *was not* a "clean system", but very much the opposite (given their choosen update method), they should at least have made the installer check for problematic SW or settings during the installation process. If some old MUI class doesn't play well with the new MUI engine, it should have been made harmless by the installer. And so on. That's what beta testing is about.
But they obviously never tested it, and never developed it all the way. Which OTOH fits their usual pattern, so nobody could really be surprised...
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Fantastic day for Amiga OS users and Sam owners, thank you Hyperion.
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If that would have been a requirement, they should have released it as an ISO instead. Wiping you HDD clean, installing OS4.1.0, OS4.1.1 on top of that, OS4.1.2 on top of that, just to be able to install OS4.1.3 on top of that is just hilarious!
Not really. AFAIK older Mac users apparently can only upgrade to Lion by having an existing OS in the first place and downloading the upgrade, so I'm not sure I see the difference. Of course, Hyperion should at some point allow users to start from a clean slate and get 'the latest' on straight away, because no-one wants to spend the best part of a day just getting the OS installed, let alone the rest of their needs set up. Development time has to be prioritised to suit both developers and users. I'm sure that as most Amiga (whether it's AmigaOS, AROS, MorphOS, etc) users are die-hard types and so are probably more interested in certain features being written well and tested thoroughly than say the installation procedure matching the expectation of an OS with multi-million-dollar funding or thousands of volunteering developers behind it.
Windows users have gone through similar (not so little) routines, Vista RTM requires that you install some patches, then SP1, then some more patches, then SP2, etc (the procedure takes hours). I really wish Microsoft would come up with a "catch all updates in one go, apply them and reboot" routine as getting Vista (just as an example) up-to-date can be a real pain. Of course with Vista it is possible simply to install Vista SP2 on a blank disk, but not everyone has access to the latest media to do that (or knows how to do streamlined Windows install discs).
Classic Amiga users have had to go through this sort of rigmarole for ages, assuming that they use their Amiga on the Internet or have custom hardware - having to install a TCP/IP stack separately, some custom libs, support for >4GB partitions, some UI add-ons to make the UI more usable, it's all the same in terms of tedious hoops to jump through.
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Not really. AFAIK older Mac users apparently can only upgrade to Lion by having an existing OS in the first place and downloading the upgrade, so I'm not sure I see the difference.
I think there was a similar thing in Windows95 (or was it win 98?)
But does that make it *a good way* then? Especially since your update script seems to demand a clean-slate install anyway?
I mean, *you could* also do it like this:
http://www.morphos-team.net/morphos-2.0.iso
http://www.morphos-team.net/morphos-2.1.iso
http://www.morphos-team.net/morphos-2.2.iso
http://www.morphos-team.net/morphos-2.3.iso
http://www.morphos-team.net/morphos-2.4.iso
http://www.morphos-team.net/morphos-2.5.iso
http://www.morphos-team.net/morphos-2.6.iso
http://www.morphos-team.net/morphos-2.7.iso
Of course there is an upgrade option in the installer.
From many comments on various forums, it seems to me that this is what the customers wants? I don't see the point in denying it to them?
I mean, what's the problem?
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I don't know why I bother posting these, but here goes.
Can people please stop whinging and bashing the various flavours of Amiga like operating systems. It does not help the Amiga in general. It turns people off the whole amiga-like platform.
What it does NOT do is turn people from one flavour of Amiga to another (In this instance, it's the morphos crew jumping on minor issues to make their OS look like the best one, in other instances/threads etc. it's the other way around, and then there is the AROS camp).
This is pathetic and sad and if I didn't like the Amiga so much it would probably just make me laugh. It reminds me of religous sects arguing over essentially meaningless differences in dogma (The Life of Brian and the PFJ v's the JPF spring to mind :-).
The Amiga world is too small for this kind of in-fighting.
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I don't know why I bother posting these, but here goes.
Can people please stop whinging and bashing the various flavours of Amiga like operating systems. It does not help the Amiga in general. It turns people off the whole amiga-like platform.
What it does NOT do is turn people from one flavour of Amiga to another (In this instance, it's the morphos crew jumping on minor issues to make their OS look like the best one, in other instances/threads etc. it's the other way around, and then there is the AROS camp).
This is pathetic and sad and if I didn't like the Amiga so much it would probably just make me laugh. It reminds me of religous sects arguing over essentially meaningless differences in dogma (The Life of Brian and the PFJ v's the JPF spring to mind :-).
The Amiga world is too small for this kind of in-fighting.
yes it is indeed a big issue on this site that keeps getting worse unfortunately :(
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This is pathetic and sad and if I didn't like the Amiga so much it would probably just make me laugh. It reminds me of religous sects arguing over essentially meaningless differences in dogma (The Life of Brian and the PFJ v's the JPF spring to mind :-).
The Amiga world is too small for this kind of in-fighting.
Very good analogy...
Suicide Squad Leader: We are the Judean People's Front crack suicide squad! Suicide squad, attack!
[they all stab themselves]
Suicide Squad Leader: That showed 'em, huh?
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How do you install system "not cleanly"?
What i mean is a user could have replaced libraries or other system files such as MUI classes or modified s-s or be running some 3rd party software...
It's always best to start from a formatted partition, IMHO.
It's not required, but if a user is experiencing issues we either need to track them down or start from a known state.
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I think there was a similar thing in Windows95 (or was it win 98?)
But does that make it *a good way* then? Especially since your update script seems to demand a clean-slate install anyway?
I mean, *you could* also do it like this:
http://www.morphos-team.net/morphos-2.0.iso
http://www.morphos-team.net/morphos-2.1.iso
http://www.morphos-team.net/morphos-2.2.iso
http://www.morphos-team.net/morphos-2.3.iso
http://www.morphos-team.net/morphos-2.4.iso
http://www.morphos-team.net/morphos-2.5.iso
http://www.morphos-team.net/morphos-2.6.iso
http://www.morphos-team.net/morphos-2.7.iso
Of course there is an upgrade option in the installer.
From many comments on various forums, it seems to me that this is what the customers wants? I don't see the point in denying it to them?
I mean, what's the problem?
A clean partition is not required, update 3 only requires Update 2 to already have been installed.
The situation is no different on MorphOS, except MorphOS hides the real MorphOS system files in a way that is not done on OS4. But there have been many cases where users have replaced Morphos classes or system files then run into problems. The solution was not to replace those files. That is no different than OS4.
In any case, the issue can be solved either by tracking down the specific issue or starting from a known working baseline.
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A clean partition is not required, update 3 only requires Update 2 to already have been installed.
Well, what was the latest version released as a complete ISO then? OS4.1.2? OS4.1.1? To make a clean-slate install you would have to start from there (wherever that is), and then start adding all subsequent updates, one after another, until you have reached the latest one...
The situation is no different on MorphOS
...which is very different from the MorphOS way. You can download any of the above MorphOS versions and boot/install directly from the CD. Clean-slate, or upgrade, your choice. But here is the thing - you don't have to! The reason to why only the latest version is linked to from the MorphOS Team's webpage, is because that's all you'll need! No need to install x amounts of prior OS versions, and then upgrade from that.
Only one download needed, always, and it's an ISO, always! :)
MorphOS hides the real MorphOS system files in a way that is not done on OS4.
Yes, and this didn't happen by a random coincidence, it was a design decision. And a very good and clever decision too, with hindsight to this OS4.1.3 release (and others as well)! Upgrades goes much smoother on MorphOS, thanks to this! :)
But there have been many cases where users have replaced Morphos classes or system files then run into problems.
If some moron breaks all recommendations and instructions and starts removing or modifying things in the system's exclusive, "don't-touch" MOSSYS, and starts relying on that, rather than use the proper user-space SYS for this, then they are completely on their own when it's time to update, and they have only themselves to blame for any problems. The "moron-protection" only goes that far you know... :p
That is no different than OS4.
All this is obviously *very* different from OS4...
:)
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I updated from my AmigaOS 4 update 2 to the new update 3 in less than 5 minutes. From first try. I recorded a video of the process in HD, but the video turned out to be ~8 GB, so it is still uploading to YouTube. It will take some time to upload.
I rebooted in the video and before someone jumps - it's not that faaaast - I am behind a proxy with router. It takes time to initialize the DHCP, and configure the Internet connection. Then I open OWB, but it does not load the AmigaWorld.net from the first time because of the router and the proxy. AmigaOS 4 works flawlessly after that. Nice update. Good work from Hyperion as usual.
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It is allays funny that those people who doesn't have anything to do with Amiga Os are biggest whiners and every single thread about Os4 is filled with MorOs users. Cry baby cry ;) they call it criticism :D If somebody's only task is point out other's mistakes, it is sad, not a criticism. Criticisims without solution is just like whining and I'm quite sure that they are not able to help anyone.
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and then there is the AROS camp
As an AROS developer I am touched by this statement. Please PM me (staf at stafverhaegen dot be) when some AROS fan(boy) says some provoking or denigrating comment on other amiga-like systems.
greets,
Staf.
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Thanks to OS4 DevTeam for this great OS, thanks to Acube for the hardware and the continue updates and utilities for their hardware :-)
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Well, what was the latest version released as a complete ISO then? OS4.1.2?
4.1.1 was the last full ISO, as far as I know. 4.1.2 installs over it.
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Well, what was the latest version released as a complete ISO then? OS4.1.2? OS4.1.1? To make a clean-slate install you would have to start from there (wherever that is), and then start adding all subsequent updates, one after another, until you have reached the latest one...
4.1 Update 1 was a full ISO. Update 2 was an installer as is Update 3, so the sequence is 4.1 Update 1 ISO, Update 2, then Update 3. For AmigaOS 4.1 Classic it's just Update 3 as it is already at the Update 2 level.
...which is very different from the MorphOS way. You can download any of the above MorphOS versions and boot/install directly from the CD. Clean-slate, or upgrade, your choice. But here is the thing - you don't have to! The reason to why only the latest version is linked to from the MorphOS Team's webpage, is because that's all you'll need! No need to install x amounts of prior OS versions, and then upgrade from that.
Does it not backup your mossys: directory and install a new one every time, even if you do an upgrade? I don't really see your point. MorphOS is coming as full releases, and not update packages, so obviously there will be a difference. I don't see why you are making a fuss over this.
Only one download needed, always, and it's an ISO, always! :)
That's a design decision. It has its good points and weak points. One weak point is that you have to download an entire ISO, burn it, just for the "updates" to go from 2.6 to 2.7.
Yes, and this didn't happen by a random coincidence, it was a design decision. And a very good and clever decision too, with hindsight to this OS4.1.3 release (and others as well)! Upgrades goes much smoother on MorphOS, thanks to this! :)
Again this is a design decision, and may have been influenced by the fact that the MorphOS team didn't work from the original source code, so they separated all their things in their own directory, rather than directly updating the components themselves (because they didn't have access to them. Effectively you have two sys: assignments which is not required for OS4 since it *is* the original.
[/quote]
If some moron breaks all recommendations and instructions and starts removing or modifying things in the system's exclusive, "don't-touch" MOSSYS, and starts relying on that, rather than use the proper user-space SYS for this, then they are completely on their own when it's time to update, and they have only themselves to blame for any problems. The "moron-protection" only goes that far you know... :p
Well this is no different than the case of OS4, if you go replacing sobjects or system libraries....
All this is obviously *very* different from OS4...
I disagree...but then again I don't think we can ever agree since you are so firmly entrenched into the MorphOS side for some reason.
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What i mean is a user could have replaced libraries or other system files such as MUI classes or modified s-s or be running some 3rd party software...
It is always possible... nobody knows what those installer scripts are doing. Problem is user can not really know is his install clean or not.
To quote your reply to tmhgm:
Does it not backup your mossys: directory and install a new one every time, even if you do an upgrade? I don't really see your point. MorphOS is coming as full releases, and not update packages, so obviously there will be a difference.
You can choose to update or install as new. If you just update you can keep your old settings, user-startup (while s-s is replaced), fonts, libs, classes, almost everything you have installed outside mossys: is kept intact. User can update from any previous version without installing any intermediate patches.
If update goes wrong you can always restore your previous mossys: what is also useful when testing iso images.
That's a design decision. It has its good points and weak points. One weak point is that you have to download an entire ISO, burn it, just for the "updates" to go from 2.6 to 2.7.
You dont have to burn it (although I recommend it). You can just mount it and install from there.
Again this is a design decision, and may have been influenced by the fact that the MorphOS team didn't work from the original source code, so they separated all their things in their own directory, rather than directly updating the components themselves (because they didn't have access to them. Effectively you have two sys: assignments which is not required for OS4 since it *is* the original.
Nothing prevents you using OS4SYS: or maybe even implementing different scheme. Neither did AROS components (i.e. locale.library) support mossys: either so it was retrofitted where needed.
Oh, btw, MorphOS 0.x versions didnt have mossys: assign but it directly replaced original components. (Due to this legacy MorphOS is still trying to load #?.library.elf first.)
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I think there was a similar thing in Windows95 (or was it win 98?)
But does that make it *a good way* then?
You said it was "hilarious" that OS 4.1.1 then 2 then 3 had to be put on in series (implication: bad). I countered/implied with that it's not such an uncommon practice, with the two big players engaging in it from time to time (further implication: So it can't be that bad). I don't think it's a good thing, but as I said previously, if I were inclined to get a new Amiga-type machine, accepting that developer time isn't infinite and can't magically be squeezed into a smaller timeframe, I would prefer that more time was spent on having the 'day-to-day' features of the OS working than the installer/upgrade system working 100% to begin with (and, as I previously said, "as long as it doesn't brick the system").
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I would prefer that more time was spent on having the 'day-to-day' features of the OS working than the installer/upgrade system working 100% to begin with (and, as I previously said, "as long as it doesn't brick the system").
I dont see difference if devs are spending their precious time to support users how to install it correctly.
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And this is how the Lead Developer comments this:
"Both IBrowse and YAM are 3rd party so I suggest you talk to the author(s) directly."
http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=271#p3491
I mean, OMG! Can't believe I'm reading that! Like: "We ****ed up the OS so the 3rd party apps you have been using for a decade suddenly don't work anymore, but that's not our fault". I'm out of words, don't know what to say. I'm just amazed...
I am the "Lead Developer" and it was just a simple MUI installation issue in the end.
I was thinking perhaps they had an old install of YAM or something but I was wrong.
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With this kind of project management, the X1000 isn't heading for mass production -- it's mess production.
And when the lead developer starts blaming third party application developers for some of the most common apps suddenly not working anymore, then you understand the level of professionalism behind this mess. This is a kind of debacle that would lead to people getting fired -- had anyone been employed as professionals that is. But no, this is more like a roadshow circus on a hobby basis; "Wanna try out being a clown? Come join us! The result doesn't really matter, only that we have fun in the process."
I do not appreciate being personally attacked and my work berated when you don't even use the product in question.
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I do not appreciate being personally attacked and my work berated when you don't even use the product in question.
Well I am and I have to say that I was supriced to see that comment too. It is getting a bit on the low side if you blame everything and anything and step away from responsibility as soon as there are a negative comment regarding AOS 4.x. In this case it was rather silly I must say. This is what I've a big problem with and I won't change my mind about it no matter for how long you ban me. Instead of doing that you should realize that it was silly to put it in a kind way. OR you could explain what has changed and why it isn't working.
Are you gonna continue down this path every time someone reports an issue? I can tell you if you haven't figured it out, it won't work and you will lose costumers. My foot is halfway out the door and I'm sure that I'm not the only one fealing this way.
If things doesn't improve that is how it is going to end. You don't have to be a psychic to realise that, you just need to use your brain. Common sense.
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I do not appreciate being personally attacked and my work berated when you don't even use the product in question.
Oh and if you still don't understan you can send me an e-mail or PM me and I can give it to you and explain how bad the situation is and why. I actually got a lot to say about it.
I feal that it is high time because this whole situation is getting out of hand and maybe you should realise that before you sitt there with two users left and only developers.
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I do not appreciate being personally attacked and my work berated when you don't even use the product in question.
Ssolie and the other OS4 developers and beta-testers were very helpful, as he has said, my (and I suspect the other users with MUI) issues turned out to be a rogue install of some MUI libraries in LIBS:. It's likely some third party installer that we installed was to blame for this, nothing to do with the os4 team, after removing these I can confirm MUI update 3 works fine. I suspect we'll hear similar reports from other users with MUI issues tomorrow.
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Ssolie and the other OS4 developers and beta-testers were very helpful, as he has said, my (and I suspect the other users with MUI) issues turned out to be a rogue install of some MUI libraries in LIBS:. It's likely some third party installer that we installed was to blame for this, nothing to do with the os4 team, after removing these I can confirm MUI update 3 works fine. I suspect we'll hear similar reports from other users with MUI issues tomorrow.
Which classes were responsible, or what program installed those bad classes so we can be aware of it?
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Which classes were responsible, or what program installed those bad classes so we can be aware of it?
It seems there was a version of muimaster.library in LIBS: which the system was defaulting to over the one in MUI: likely some badly designed program installer put it there. Not sure which app did it, the files dated from 2005-2008, other mui libraries were in there including drawers for OS 3/4/MOS too inside libs/mui, the files had MagicWB icons too. Easiest way is just to
delete libs:mui#?
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I do not appreciate being personally attacked and my work berated
I am absolutely convinced that I am not the only one looking at your performance, and the state of your work you released, in exactly the way I described. You want appreciation? Earn it!
when you don't even use the product in question.
I will never again use OS4.x.x, that's for sure, but that doesn't stop me from being interested in it and follow its "development". I will continue to do so, thank you very much.
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And the link for the updated NDK is...?
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If things doesn't improve that is how it is going to end. You don't have to be a psychic to realise that, you just need to use your brain. Common sense.
I don't buy it. You claim to be interested in OS4 cause. I don't see how humiliating people in public who devote their time to working on it can help in that.
greets,
Staf.
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OT
Windows users have gone through similar (not so little) routines, Vista RTM requires that you install some patches, then SP1, then some more patches, then SP2, etc (the procedure takes hours). I really wish Microsoft would come up with a "catch all updates in one go, apply them and reboot" routine as getting Vista (just as an example) up-to-date can be a real pain. Of course with Vista it is possible simply to install Vista SP2 on a blank disk, but not everyone has access to the latest media to do that (or knows how to do streamlined Windows install discs).
If you ignore how Windows and Microsoft updates work, it's neither Vista nor Microsoft fault. If you knew how they work, you'd also knew that you can:
1) download every update file you need from here:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/current.aspx
2) place all the msu files you need in a directory
3) launch them with a simple line or script from a command prompt like this:
for %%I in (*.msu) do wusa %%I /quiet /norestart
In the end, you can restart the system if you like (that's what you should do anyway, to actually apply the changes).
Edit: ah, I also forgot. You can even integrate services packs and drivers into a older Vista / Windows Server installation disc using a procedure called "slipstream".
/OT
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I will never again use OS4.x.x, that's for sure, but that doesn't stop me from being interested in it and follow its "development". I will continue to do so, thank you very much.
Out of curiosity, what exactly is your interest in the project? I only ask because you only seem be interested in slating it and everybody involved with it, whatever their capacity, at every possible opportunity. Rarely is there any OS4 related topic that crops up here without such a post from yourself. This my observation and opinion, not a moderation statement, so don't get all panicky and cry "foul mod" just yet.
You know, there was a time when the old BAFs used to constantly deride MorphOS. They were never justified in doing so IMHO, as it's clearly a finely implemented and mature Amiga-compatible OS. It would be blatantly untrue to suggest otherwise yet they persisted. Consequently I always found those zealous users that did so, clearly for the sake of it, to be insufferable idiots.
Sound familiar?
Just sayin'...
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Out of curiosity, what exactly is your interest in the project? I only ask because you only seem be interested in slating it and everybody involved with it, whatever their capacity, at every possible opportunity.
I'll offer that my interest in the subject is because people here on a forum I frequent like to talk about it, and consequently I like to join in on the conversation. I don't think you should have to use something in order to have or express an opinion on it.
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Removed. I try to keep such posts on moobunny.
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As a paying customer of both OS4 and MorphOS, please see the attached image as an illustration of my frustration with how OS4 development is proceeding. EDIT: Looks like the image uploader crunched down the resolution. If you can't read it, the two lines are 'Bugs' and 'New Features'
The time between releases is absurdly long. USB2.0 took literally years to materialize and is apparently still buggy. If the release cycle was much shorter, that wouldn't bother me so much - hence the inverse relationship between bugs and features on the 'Expectations' graph.
I'd rather see more frequent, less-feature-laden OS4 updates than we have in the current release model, even if it means they're buggier. Or maybe it's time to do away with the closed-beta and just have an opt-in, no-support, bleeding-edge, as-new-OS-files-are-available update model through AmiUpdate (like Debian sid or Debian experimental).
I don't mean for this to be hostile. I hope this is constructive feedback. If any of the OS4 guys want to discuss further, please get in touch.
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I'd rather see more frequent, less-feature-laden OS4 updates than we have in the current release model, even if it means they're buggier.
ssolie stated (on the Hyperion blog I believe) that he leaned toward more frequent releases, so you may get your wish. But then again he also told people having problems with Update 3 to go talk to the creators of affected applications, so be careful what you wish for.
Also be careful of what you post on the Hyperion support forum or you might get banned like HotRod: http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=269
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@ Matt_H
Good pictures. Those graphs makes sense.
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Also be careful of what you post on the Hyperion support forum or you might get banned like HotRod: http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=269
Wow, that was pretty cold. What a way to treat a customer.
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Effectively you have two sys: assignments which is not required for OS4 since it *is* the original.
I like it ;) :)
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As a paying customer of both OS4 and MorphOS, please see the attached image as an illustration of my frustration with how OS4 development is proceeding. EDIT: Looks like the image uploader crunched down the resolution. If you can't read it, the two lines are 'Bugs' and 'New Features'
The time between releases is absurdly long. USB2.0 took literally years to materialize and is apparently still buggy. If the release cycle was much shorter, that wouldn't bother me so much - hence the inverse relationship between bugs and features on the 'Expectations' graph.
I'd rather see more frequent, less-feature-laden OS4 updates than we have in the current release model, even if it means they're buggier. Or maybe it's time to do away with the closed-beta and just have an opt-in, no-support, bleeding-edge, as-new-OS-files-are-available update model through AmiUpdate (like Debian sid or Debian experimental).
I don't mean for this to be hostile. I hope this is constructive feedback. If any of the OS4 guys want to discuss further, please get in touch.
Seeing how update 3 aimed to be the last update for AOS 4.1 this is a big disapointment. I expected more since it has taken so long between update 2 and 3. The bigest improvement are faster graphics and it's nice that USB 2 is finally available. However OWB still gets stuck at 100% and I still got the same issues with the graphicscard that is the recommended modell.
I don't know if they'll ever get it right but since 4.1 was released it hasn't been working properly IMO. I am very tempted to reverse to 4.0, it actually worked better over all. I prefer a stable and working system than a half-working system with new features.
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..You know, there was a time when the old BAFs used to constantly deride MorphOS. They were never justified in doing so IMHO, as it's clearly a finely implemented and mature Amiga-compatible OS. It would be blatantly untrue to suggest otherwise yet they persisted. Consequently I always found those zealous users that did so, clearly for the sake of it, to be insufferable idiots.
Sound familiar?
Just sayin'...
Karlos, you are far too kind:cool:
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So, I just installed this Update 3 on my Sam440ep-flex... The procedure went without any problems :-) :-)
Initial impressions:
* Yay, me like the new boot pic very very much :D :D
* Oki... the system bootup seems little slower now :-S Well, expected with more stuff to load so not a big deal :)
* Took one of my USB2 stick and... yes it seems to work great!! :D
* Started OWB, went to AW.net... browsing feels faster, and wow, the scrolling feels much much faster compared to before :D
* And the overall system... feels more snappier and responsive too :D
Haven't yet tested more than that...
*me-happy* :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
@Hyperion
Thanks :drink: :drink: :drink:
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Network speed is a lot faster too. Downloaded something from os4depot.net using IBrowse and got about 2MB/s and it's always been 400-500kb/s befores this update.
Yes, nice bootpic, like that as well. Haven't had IBrowse crashing on startup, at least not yet so it might be fixed. Faster graphics, even my old Radeon 7000 worked fine with compositing on when moving windows but was really slow before the update.
I am very tempted to make a video showing what I'm doing regarding the DDC issue since they don't seem to believe me or take me seriously.
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yes it is indeed a big issue on this site that keeps getting worse unfortunately :(
What you guys fail to realize is it has nothing to do with "this site" Its honest users and devs that are dissapointed that after a 16month development cycle all these problems and no real features except usb2 which should have came out 2 years ago...
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You said it was "hilarious" that OS 4.1.1 then 2 then 3 had to be put on in series (implication: bad).
Yes, after reading this thread agreed. Amiga os should not have to be installed like lame ass windows xp or vista or whatever. To do the os4.0 to 4.1 to 4.2 probably takes a couple of hours. PITA
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I do not appreciate being personally attacked and my work berated when you don't even use the product in question.
Ssolie
You are right. I'm impressed with how you took charge of the os4 efforts and things have gotten better with you and other like Hammer involved. of course deniil, kas1e etc..
Insults are not cool. You have to understand this amiga people are very emotional. To be honest Hyperion over the years has set themselves up for this kind of criticism since they carry the "name" legacy. Also all the stupid things os4 devs and Hyperion MP Ben H said about Morphos and other amiga projects they set themselves up for harsh criticisms for ppl in the know.
I mean 1 year and a half is a long time for a release to have this many broken apps and not many features... having said this i'm glad its finally out and looks as if some users are having great success with it. But its pretty bad when you have customers uninstalling the latest version of an OS4 and reverting back to the previous...
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Karlos, you are far too kind:cool:
It is clear from your trolling constantly about Morphos that you have NO CLUE as to the truth of Morphos origins and developments. Did you even know that the Pegasos 1 with Morphos was ANNOUNCED as the next Gen "Amiga" by Amiga inc back in the day? I even have an Amiga mag with this somewhere.. the genius founders of MOrphos Frank M and Ralph S got stabbed in the back (and bplan guys) by Ainc and periphery developers like H+P and Hyperion.... DO SOME RESEARCH dont just be a blind fanboy... are you the type of person that believes everthing they see on tv or in the papers or what?
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It is clear from your trolling constantly about Morphos that you have NO CLUE as to the truth of Morphos origins and developments. Did you even know that the Pegasos 1 with Morphos was ANNOUNCED as the next Gen "Amiga" by Amiga inc back in the day? I even have an Amiga mag with this somewhere.. the genius founders of MOrphos Frank M and Ralph S got stabbed in the back (and bplan guys) by Ainc and periphery developers like H+P and Hyperion.... DO SOME RESEARCH dont just be a blind fanboy... are you the type of person that believes everthing they see on tv or in the papers or what?
WoW this is just too funny! yet another OS4.x thread is hi-jacked by the usual FUD spreaders here & you say I'm constantly trolling about MOS????:roflmao:this is a specific OS4.1 thread and I have not made one reference to MOS !
cough cough btw, this isn't about Red vs Blue wars!The problem I have (& it appears many others have as well) is that it is just pathetic how the usual suspects just trash every single bloody thread specifically targeted for OS4.x!!! it's shallow, childish, idiotic etc. etc. etc. and only promotes a horrible image of ALL Amiga camps to returning and potentially new Amiga enthusiasts world wide:madashell:
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[youtube]xUCoueSEtao[/youtube]
Had no problems at all. Update 3 rules. I love the fast speed of the USB transfer. Now I can use my 1 TB external USB Hard Disk drives for backup purposes more easily.
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Effectively you have two sys: assignments which is not required for OS4 since it *is* the original.
I like it ;) :)
This has nothing to do about "original" or being "teh reeel!!1!!", HammerD is confused, MorphOS could easily have done that as well. But having the system files separated in a MOSSYS: and the users own files (as well as various more or less flaky installers who might mess things up in SYS) in the traditional SYS: is much cleaner and makes upgrades etc much more simple and safe. Had OS4 had an OS4SYS: in a similar way, you would have been spared at least some of the problems users are now experiencing with this upgrade, as some OS4 users now starts to realize (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=34154&forum=14&start=180&viewmode=flat&order=0&start=199) (although Deniil715 is doing it "the other way around" for some reason).
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I don't buy it. You claim to be interested in OS4 cause. I don't see how humiliating people in public who devote their time to working on it can help in that.
greets,
Staf.
I had missed that comment so I will reply now. If I wasn't interested I wouldn't had bought the A1 XE nor would I've bought AOS 4.1. Makes sense, right? Regarding the humiliating people in public I can tell you how I work. If someone treats me in a bad way I will eventually do the same. That is a normal human reaction. Being told that something isn't "rocket surgery" when you've struggled with an issue that is very anoying isn't exactly friendly, at least not the way I see it and on top of that he followed that thread and made a bug report about it. Everything that I had done to fix the issue he already knew. To me that is noting else but arrogant behaviour and it's humiliating because it is the same as saying "hey, this isn't very hard, even a 5 year old can do that so why can't you?".
I feal no need to defend myself and I don't lay awake at night fealing that I've treated anyone worse than I've been treated myself so buy what you wan't and think what you want I really don't care.