Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Kesa on August 12, 2011, 11:38:59 AM
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3 more NatAmi's for the developers!
Oh it's getting close :)
http://www.facebook.com/pages/NatAmi/113794201992031
ps you have to scroll down a bit to find it :)
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Awesome, it all seems to be going well.
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I know! It's amazing. I actually am getting more confident of a full production release. I wonder how many they will make after beta testing is done? How much will they cost do you think? Less than $1000?
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Cheaper than an AGA Amiga with an 060, extra mem, fast ata etc.. that's for sure. Building a decent classic 'miggy is expensive and Natami will end up being not just the better, but also cheaper option.
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Yep cant wait to get my hands on one of these puppies, SuperAGA with all the new chunky modes, resolutions and 100-200 times faster than a classic AGA.
Gunner has been playing/tuning with the 060 card and says it can keep up with 600mhz PPC Amiga in mem copy.
MEMORY READ 145 MB/sec (Optimised Code)
MEMORY READ 114 MB/sec (Average Code)
MEMORY WRITE 155 MB/sec
MEMORY COPY 140 MB/sec
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=39600&order=&x=3
He also says he isnt finished tuning it yet which is cool, I wonder how the N050 FPGA and the DDR2 memory will stack up to these results ;-)
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Boo-yah! I am eagerly looking forward to this.
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I guess the '060 is the limiting rate for memory reads/writes here!
The DDR2 should have gigabytes of bandwidth, I'm sure that the '050 softcore won't even be able to stress it, unless there's a really custom synthetic benchmark or hardware memcpy instruction (hmm, SuperAGA blitter?).
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Yeah, I don't think the 060 is exactly designed to handle 3200+ MB/s ;) They probably went with DDR2 because it's the cheapest and most easily available memory standard these days. On the bright side, with that much bandwidth to go around, I imagine "chip RAM is slow" will be a thing of the past...
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Isn't it nice that Natami news seems to generate such positive threads. Makes a change with so many of us divided on X1000, Aros, OS4 and MorphOS issues. I think it bodes very well for the success of this platform.
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Isn't it nice that Natami news seems to generate such positive threads. Makes a change with so many of us divided on X1000, Aros, OS4 and MorphOS issues. I think it bodes very well for the success of this platform.
I thinks it's because a lot of folks on A.org are classic lovers first and 2nd generation Amiga second.
I have MorphOS and OS4 here but I still seem to enjoy the classic the best.
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Great to see this. But how are they ever going to be able to make them more quickly? Is there going to be a "production run" ?
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Isn't it nice that Natami news seems to generate such positive threads. Makes a change with so many of us divided on X1000, Aros, OS4 and MorphOS issues. I think it bodes very well for the success of this platform.
Amen to that.
I get heartily sick of the usual suspects jumping on every post concerning whichever OS it is they don't like. How I wish they'd just leave alone the threads that don't concern them.
On the plus side - Yay Natami! :) I know I'll be looking at buying one if I can muster the cash!
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Man... I hope the NatAmi arrives before I kick the bucket... :)
Just imagine the software you could write to take advantage of the new GFX modes & all that speed as standard but the thing that tops it all off for me is the fact I can write all this new software in 68K Assembler and run it on OS3.x... that's my idea of heaven... :)
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Isn't it nice that Natami news seems to generate such positive threads. Makes a change with so many of us divided on X1000, Aros, OS4 and MorphOS issues. I think it bodes very well for the success of this platform.
That's because the FPGA Amiga range (Minimig, FPGA Arcade, Natami and even possibly the Chameleon64) are the closest things to our beloved original hardware available.
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I'll definetly be buying one as it seems there's no sight of any new Sam460EX availability and the USD to Swiss Franc exchange rate for getting a new OS4.X machine from Relec is SKY HIGH! Kudos to the Natami Team!!! :)
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Gunner has been playing/tuning with the 060 card and says it can keep up with 600mhz PPC Amiga in mem copy.
MEMORY READ 145 MB/sec (Optimised Code)
MEMORY READ 114 MB/sec (Average Code)
MEMORY WRITE 155 MB/sec
MEMORY COPY 140 MB/sec
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=39600&order=&x=3
He also says he isnt finished tuning it yet which is cool, I wonder how the N050 FPGA and the DDR2 memory will stack up to these results ;-)
Memory interface of this "600MHz powerpc amiga" is the partcularly weak spot in it. Beating it is hardly worth cheering about.
Comparing the results against 7447 with 166MHz bus and proper chipset would have given a slightly different picture:
write: 774 MB/s
read: 375MB/s
(Actual figures from Mac mini G4 1.5GHz, unoptimized C code)
And if we go to anything computational the G4 crushes classic, and even natami, regardless of if it runs real 060 or some FPGA 68k emulation. Some figures here: http://via.i-networx.de/bench_en.html
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What would be awesome is if we could make an FPGA board that replaces all the custom chips by way of piggybacking in a classic Amiga, then from there.
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What would be awesome is if we could make an FPGA board that replaces all the custom chips by way of piggybacking in a classic Amiga, then from there.
Not really. Anything not on the board itself would still be limited to the original bus speed, which is exactly the same constraint as existing classic Amiga upgrades. The only way to remove that is to do what NatAmi's doing and create a whole new design with a faster bus.
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Memory interface of this "600MHz powerpc amiga" is the partcularly weak spot in it. Beating it is hardly worth cheering about.
Comparing the results against 7447 with 166MHz bus and proper chipset would have given a slightly different picture:
write: 774 MB/s
read: 375MB/s
(Actual figures from Mac mini G4 1.5GHz, unoptimized C code)
And if we go to anything computational the G4 crushes classic, and even natami, regardless of if it runs real 060 or some FPGA 68k emulation. Some figures here: http://via.i-networx.de/bench_en.html
Yes Piru MOS in a Mac is impressive, I am sure Gunner was refering to Pegasos with OS 4.x if you read the whole natami thread.
But dont you think those figures are impressive concidering how old the 060 processor is ?? I think it shows how mature the 060 architecture is, and it is only running @ 120mhz. Gunner also says he is aiming for 180 MB/s.
I am sure the N050 + DDR2 will score alot higher, I guess it would also depend on the memory controller Natami MX has.
I do know it is using a 64bit bus for the DDR2 memory, Oh well time will tell.
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I think Piru feels threatened by the NatAmi, simple reason being that when it becomes available we will truly have a "new" Amiga that can run at speeds unheard of before (even with a PPC board), ease of use for adding things like HD's DVD writers etc... but most of all the threat comes from the fact that it's 68K (so to speak) and will run 3.x at speed we could only ever dream about before... :)
Piru, you shouldn't worry that this will stop people using MorphOS or that you'll lose custom because of it, as I reckon most MorphOS users are too mean anyway to shell out the cash that a NatAmi will cost, so you and the hundred or so MorphOS users can go on with your system while the rest of us real Amigans enjoy the dream machine we have waited so long for... ;)
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Yes Piru MOS in a Mac is impressive, I am sure Gunner was refering to Pegasos with OS 4.x if you read the whole natami thread.
And specifically G3 which had abysmal performance. Peg2 with G4 is a lot faster. I wonder why he didn't compare it against that?
But dont you think those figures are impressive concidering how old the 060 processor is ?
They're not. They're to be expected with proper bus management. Atari accelerators have had this for ages for instance.
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I think
You can think what you want.
Piru feels threatened by the NatAmi
No I don't.
simple reason being that when it becomes available we will truly have a "new" Amiga that can run at speeds unheard of before (even with a PPC board), ease of use for adding things like HD's DVD writers etc... but most of all the threat comes from the fact that it's 68K (so to speak) and will run 3.x at speed we could only ever dream about before... :)
No, it won't beat even moderate PPC systems, and it isn't even trying to do so. Not that I would worry even if it did. NatAmi is targeting a different audience (it may well overlap with MorphOS user base of course). Running 68k ultra fast isn't anything spectacularly interesting. It has been done before with UAE and the like.
As for superaga, I don't feel it will make much impact. Amiga devs are few and far between already, and going even more niche with expensive hardware won't help a bit.
Rest of your nonsense isn't worth commenting.
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It didn't take long to start the platform wars.
This thread started off so nicely, but here we go again.
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True.
Please do not infest this thread. If someone does not like NatAmi, then just skip everything related to it. There are many people, including me, who respect the work of NatAmi team and look forward to buying it.
Great work NatAmi team! Just keep going at it guys!
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It was a valid comment that the comparison was designed to look good, I'm all for reality checking.
But still, comparing to currently available 68K Amiga memory speed (its actual direct competitor) it's pretty damn awesome.
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Natami is going to be awesome! MorphOS is awesome! Classic Amigas with new expansions and OS3.x are awesome. Aros is awesome. X1000 running OS4.2 is going to be awesome. FPGA Arcade is awesome. This has got to be the best time to be an Amiga user in over a decade.
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@ Piru
First you chime in with trying to put a damper on the NatAmi with your rubbish about it won't be as fast as X,Y,Z... :rolleyes:
Then you respond to my post by saying "Rest of your nonsense isn't worth commenting."... :rolleyes:
Now after saying that you go back and edit your post to make more spurious claims and trying to put the NatAmi down once again... :rolleyes:
Well I've got news for you Mr MiseryGuts... no-one cares what you think about the Natami or the rubbish claims you make against it or your wee made up so called "facts & figures"... ;)
We get it... you don't think much about the NatAmi and we don't care what you think, so kindly toddle off elsewhere and leave the NatAmi to those of us who still enjoy using "Real" Amigas and "Real" Amiga OS's like Workbench 3.x and can appreciate all the hard work and effort that has gone into this amazing piece of kit and the fact that it will be the closest thing ever to being a REAL Amiga that has been seen since the A1200... ta very glad... :)
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Piru is the only one with a sensible head on his shoulders.
NatAmi is going to be fun (for those who can afford it) at least as long as the devs remain interested.
It's not going to replace your modern desktop x64 PC. I don't even think it will replace your Amiga in the short term as compatibility will be it's Achilles heel for the short term. Power benchmarks against anything other than accelerated classic Amiga's are pretty much irrelevant.
At the same time I am glad the devs are enjoying making the RTL code, (although I do worry about the closed source approach they are taking vs MiniMig) Maybe one day their work will find it's way into an ultra low cost "Amiga Joystick" type application which a generation of parents and their kids might enjoy (re)discovering.
Natami will be the closest thing ever to being a REAL Amiga that has been seen since the A1200... ta very glad... :)
Erm, if you're discounting UAE then MiniMig is the closest thing to a Real Amiga there has been since an A1200. Because it is erm... REAL ;)
NatAmi's closed source nature means their FPGA core is still very close to being vapourware until their product lands in the hands of users. I have respect for Thomas Hirsch though, he's shown he's a true engineer. (Unlike one or two of the NatAmi crowd ;))
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Natami is going to be awesome! MorphOS is awesome! Classic Amigas with new expansions and OS3.x are awesome. Aros is awesome. X1000 running OS4.2 is going to be awesome. FPGA Arcade is awesome. This has got to be the best time to be an Amiga user in over a decade.
A great reality check from Cammy, I couldn't agree more. Why some people get upset about the stuff they are not interested in is beyond me. I think we all have our favorite flavors. I'm very much looking forward to Natami and X1000 in particular, I may even buy a cheap ass mac to run MorphOS (I would love to see MorphOS on SAM and X1000 too but I doubt I will, sadly).
BTW you missed out SAM, UAE and Minimig :P
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@ alexh
Gotta disagree with you strongly on almost all you said there (especially about Piru ;)) but all kidding aside I think you are wrong, the NatAmi is basically promising 100% backwards compatibility, I (and I don't think anyone else is either) looking for it to replace any kind of PC (what give you that idea !!!) I am quite simply looking forward to buying new hardware that's an Amiga not a PC, is backward compatible and runs faster than any expanded Amiga ever could, not to mention all the other goodies it will bring... :)
It's got nothing to do with folk developing new software for it (though I intend to do so myself) the simple fact that most old software from DPaint to Pagestream will run a lot faster on it is what I'm looking forward to... :)
So to me comparing the NatAmi to other processors and the speeds they run at is pointless (as well as stupid to be honest). I think anyone who's looking forward to buying the NatAmi already knows it's capabilities and are very happy with what it offers and are going to be quite happy buying this rather than spending a fortune on ebay for a nearly 20 year old 060 that you can't guarantee will work or last long... :)
Kinda think all you "doubters" are deliberately missing the point in the NatAmi... ;)
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@alexh
That's a rather negative view you have. I'm not going to argue with you right now however, it's late and I'm going to bed. I see little point in that anyway, your mind is quite obviously set, but I am wondering why you felt the need to post at all.
I can't help but think your kind of missing the point TBH. If you lack faith in Natami (and you clearly do), then sit back and just wait and see. If it doesn't offer anything you like then you loose nothing, but it may just turn out better than you think and that's great. Naysaying helps no one.
BTW, the reasons for the closed approach on the RTL code have been stated by gunnar on the Natami site more than once, I have no desire to repeat them so look it up if you can be bothered or just ask on the Natami forum yourself.
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Damn, Franko beat me to the post and I ...er... agreed with him for once. LMFAO
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@ alexH
Of course I discount UAE as it's plain and simply got as much in common with "real" amiga as Amiga Forever has... (ie: sod all) ;)
The MiniMig while a great product was never for me (took them too long to make it AGA and no AGA then no Amiga), quite simply the specs the NatAmi is offering is what I want & require from an Amiga and all the other reasons I've given before... :)
Closed source, open source, Top ruddy secret... I couldn't care less about how, who, what or why it's developed as long as I can simply buy one and it does what I want it to do... :)
So the doubters and downers can say all they want about it, you won't change my mind. First chance I get I'm buying one no matter how much someone else tells me "but it's old technology and xyz chip can run at abc times more faster than it"... who friggin cares... not me... I want a NatAmi and I want one now... :)
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@ Tripitaka
Yup when I read your post I thought "that buggers got a camera in here spying on me somewhere" :eek:
(Hmmm... better have a quick look round... ;))
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alexh is the only one with his head up his own backside.
I wouldn't worry about anything he ever has to say, he only joins in when there's an opportunity to tell someone they're wrong, but never actually offers any new or useful information in his posts or takes into consideration the fact that other people have different views on computing than he does.
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alexh is the only one with his head up his own backside.
I wouldn't worry about anything he ever has to say, he only joins in when there's an opportunity to tell someone they're wrong, but never actually offers any new or useful information in his posts or takes into consideration the fact that other people have different views on computing than he does.
Cammy thats a bit harsh :laughing: but this time Alex is wrong ..
I don't even think it will replace your Amiga in the short term as compatibility will be it's Achilles heel for the short term.
Alex you know NatAmi stands for Native Amiga right? The following is from the NatAmi website:
Topics on Compatibility:
- The NatAmi is compatible to the OCS/ECS/AGA AMIGA chipsets.
- AMIGA Kickstarts 1.2, 1.3, 3.0, 3.1 are supported
- We recommend AMIGA Workbench 3.0 - 3.9 to be used
- AMIGA 4000/1200 register compatible IDE controller on board (enhanced, PIO and DMA)
- Existing AMIGA IDE harddrives can be used unchanged
- AMIGA DD/HD floppy support using standard PC Floppy drives.
- Floppy drive access can be redirected using ADF images on HD.
- AMIGA applications, games and demos that run on classic 68060-Systems,
will run on NATAMI as long as they have not any constrains to chipset timings/limitations.
- Direct hitting of the Amiga hardware works natively.
Querying CIA, and blitter registers will fully work just like on original AMIGA hardware.
All features documented in the Commodore Hardware Reference Manual, work as written there.
Enhancements will be described in similar style and quality.
- PS/2 mouse and keyboard can be used just as well as the original devices.
PS/2 devices are mapped to the original hardware registers.
[/LIST] http://www.natami.net/amiga-compatible.htm
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Cammy thats a bit harsh :laughing: but this time Alex is wrong ..
Can you tell me where Cammy posted this? Did you quote her then change her post when you quoted her to attack Alex? A bit suspicious...
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Is there any speculation yet as to what this might cost?
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Is there any speculation yet as to what this might cost?
IIRC, they've refused to comment until they're ready to put it in production...
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All features documented in the Commodore Hardware Reference Manual, work as written there.
As long as they feel that this is enough to ensure 100% compatibility, and from some posts by the members of the NatAmi team I've seen they seem to, there will be problems.
Duplicating the undocumented behavior and timing of the original chip set is essential to achieving 100% compatibility.
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Piru is the only one with a sensible head on his shoulders.
NatAmi is going to be fun (for those who can afford it) at least as long as the devs remain interested.
The comparison of memory bandwidth was rather silly. The N68k should have some respectable memory bandwidth though. I did noticed that Piru left out the memory copy comparison. That is where the 68k DOES compare nicely to a PPC. Gunnar thinks he can double the 68060 memory copy speed for the N68k as well. What's not mentioned is that the 68k/N68k doesn't need as fast of memory access for good performance unlike the PPC. Also, the 68k/N68k performs very well with less than great code while the PPC needs highly tuned code to extract good performance. Simply mis-aligning data on the PPC can cause a program to run at 1/2 speed or less on many PPC processors. The 68040 outperformed the early PPC processors on the MAC because of slow and limited ram and poorly optimized PPC code. The 68060 was easily a better CPU at the time but Motorola had already decided to market the PPC. It's a shame that the best processor for another 5 years was never developed or clocked up further. If the N68070 was ever burned into a real chip, it should be competitive with low end PPC (and ARM) in performance while using very little electricity. It should be fast enough to have some fun anyway ;).
It's not going to replace your modern desktop x64 PC. I don't even think it will replace your Amiga in the short term as compatibility will be it's Achilles heel for the short term. Power benchmarks against anything other than accelerated classic Amiga's are pretty much irrelevant.
I think compatibility will eventually be BETTER than high end classic 68k systems. The CPU caches are planned to have bus sniffing allowing much larger caches with better compatibility than the 040 and 060. More 020/030 and 68881/68882 instructions are built in than the 040 or 060 giving better early boot compatibility without a (N)680x0.library. Many hardware registers will be less "timing" sensitive than originals. The programmable nature of a fpga and the flash ROM will allow more fixing and patching. There will be some things that make the compatibility worse like adding and extending registers. The early Natami's will likely have bugs and worse compatibility than other classic Amigas BUT everything can be fixed.
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I have no delusion that it will replace my i7 PC.
I'm very excited, I just hope they ship in sufficient numbers that I and everyone else who is interested can buy one at retail price.
Most projects seem to become instant collectors items for the handful of people who could actually beta one before the devs gave up.
Here's hoping that both Natami and FPGA Replay can avoid that fate and make some money in the process.
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I did noticed that Piru left out the memory copy comparison.
Of course that was a deliberate, I was just hoping no one would notice!
Or not. The only reason is that the benchmark doesn't provide those numbers (actually it's no benchmark at all, those numbers are from a tool that checks memory for errors.. thus it doesn't do memory copy). But if anyone is interested memory copy is multiple times faster than natami, too.
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Alex you know NatAmi stands for Native Amiga right? The following is from the NatAmi website:
It's a re-interpretation rather than re-creation of the Amiga chipset. There are going to be issues.
All features documented in the Commodore Hardware Reference Manual, work as written there.
That's just it. That manual is incomplete. They don't have the original source / schematics. They are reverse engineering the chipset. They are going to miss subtle timing an exceptions not documented. UAE and MiniMig both suffer from these compatibility issues (although as development of both continues information is wriggling out). Toni & Yaqube have done great work tracking these undocumented features over the last few years. They have shared them too which I think is very cool.
The early Natami's will likely have bugs and worse compatibility than other classic Amigas BUT everything can be fixed.
Absolutely. And because MiniMig was open source, when the original developer Dennis van Weeren left the scene, other engineers and enthusiasts were able to jump in and pick it up. The original MiniMig compatibility wasn't great but thanks to Jakub Bednarski (Yaqube) and Tobias Gubener (TobiFlex) and others (Peter Wendrich, MikeJ) it is now pretty good.
Most projects seem to become instant collectors items for the handful of people who could actually beta one before the devs gave up.
Exactly, e.g. You can't really buy MiniMig v1.1 PCB's anymore. But it doesn't matter! People have ported the code to at least four different open FPGA boards. If you know what you're doing you can port it to any future FPGA board (with the right I/O) too. The death of hardware manufacturing isn't the death of open source FPGA designs.
NatAmi being closed source will hopefully not stagnate if the creators enthusiasm slows. Lets see how it works out.
If the N68070 was ever burned into a real chip, it should be competitive with low end PPC (and ARM) in performance while using very little electricity.
Erm how did you come to that? Electricity usage in ASICs is primarily down to the physical implementation. How it was synthesised, partitioned and routed. The logical design has a small part to play but it is a small part. And unless NatAmi thought about power upfront (they may have, but it would be strange to do so for FPGA work) then it is unlikely that they have designed the VHDL/Verilog for ULP.
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Dennis van Weeren left the scene
Any news about this cool guy ?
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And specifically G3 which had abysmal performance. Peg2 with G4 is a lot faster. I wonder why he didn't compare it against that?
They're not. They're to be expected with proper bus management. Atari accelerators have had this for ages for instance.
And wy you do not post values of the G3 600 ?
Gunnar write that natami is faster in memory transfer as a PPC with 600 MHZ.So you should test it with a PPC run at 600 MHZ, if you want something usefull post.
when somebody write a 100 MHZ PPC is in memory transfer faster as a 200 MHZ X86 and a guy post that is not true, my 2.6 GHZ PC have this faster transfer rate.
and also remember natami is a shared memory design, and it is able to read and write fast to gfx card.maybe it is here faster as a Mac mini too.
how fast the fastest MOS able systems(i guess MOS do not support PCIe) can read and write data to or from GFX Card ?
You can not compare performance with a FPGA system good.natami can get routines in vhdl that work lots faster.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconfigurable_computing
also when a amiga is oin fpga it can produce forerver, no miss Chips that not produce anymore or hard to get in small quantities.If the fpga is not produce, simple use another fpga and natami run more faster.lets see how powerfull fpga are in 10 years and which MOS or OS4 Hardware is then here
>Comparing the results against 7447 with 166MHz bus and proper chipset would have >given a slightly different picture:
>write: 774 MB/s
>read: 375MB/s
My I5 760 PC with DDR3 and winuae reach (remember X86 need byteswap the data)
read fast long 1624 MB/sec
write fast long 1218 MB/sec
fast2fast long 1082 MB/sec
fast2fastm 2492 MB /sec
and btw a 68k in fpga with the powerful movem instruction, can be lots faster access mem.
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@ alexh
the NatAmi is basically promising 100% backwards compatibility
Wrong. They have never promised this, the only project that has promised 100% compatibility (or as close to 100% as is possible) is CloneA.
Think about it like this, is a stock Commodore A1200 able to run 100% of Amiga software? Even with hacks like WHDLoad, an A1200 will probably struggle to run some old OCS software (stuff that relies on Kick 1.2 for instance). There has never been (AFAIK) an Amiga that ran 100% of all Amiga software.
On top of this, backwards compatibility has never been the prime focus of Natami (unlike the CloneA), but rather the focus has been on pushing the Amiga architecture forward. Here's an interview (from March 2011) with a Natami team member that gives a more realistic assessment:
http://www.reviewmylife.co.uk/blog/2011/03/23/natami-native-amiga-interview/
7. How do you go about designing the chipsets to be compatible with the original Amiga chipsets?
We can’t give a compatibility percentage yet but any game that already runs on a 68060-AGA-amiga is very likely to run also on Natami. With WHDload there is already a project improving compatibility of the old games and this project also helps the games on Natami.
Kinda think all you "doubters" are deliberately missing the point in the NatAmi... ;)
You're missing the point about the statements that have been made in this thread. The people who have commented aren't against Natami per se, but rather have disagreed with distorted statements about the Natami. It's the statements that are the issue, not the hardware.
Just like them, I like the Natami, and am interested in seeing it released, but get pissed off when people make stupid statements about the power it'll have, as it makes the project seem more ridiculous than it actually is. Tone down the hype and all will be well.
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And wy you do not post values of the G3 600 ?
Gunnar write that natami is faster in memory transfer as a PPC with 600 MHZ.So you should test it with a PPC run at 600 MHZ, if you want something usefull post.
You missed my point. It's common knowledge that Pegasos2 G3 sucks in memory performance department. Pegasos2 G3 is particularly slow in memory operations, slower than some other G3 systems with some other chip sets. So it does not give you G3 600 memory performance benchmark to compare against.
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You're missing the point about the statements that have been made in this thread. The people who have commented aren't against Natami per se, but rather have disagreed with distorted statements about the Natami. It's the statements that are the issue, not the hardware.
Just like them, I like the Natami, and am interested in seeing it released, but get pissed off when people make stupid statements about the power it'll have, as it makes the project seem more ridiculous than it actually is. Tone down the hype and all will be well.
++
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I'm excited about this hardware, and for one prefer to have the actual facts.
One thing I can say though that deeply saddens me about all these new Amiga clones is that NONE of them will work with old Amiga hardware such as the Toaster, SuperGen+, ChromaKey+, etc.
With that in mind, we are still witnessing the death of a large piece of Amiga history. When our original Amigas die, it dies. :(
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I'm excited about this hardware, and for one prefer to have the actual facts.
One thing I can say though that deeply saddens me about all these new Amiga clones is that NONE of them will work with old Amiga hardware such as the Toaster, SuperGen+, ChromaKey+, etc.
With that in mind, we are still witnessing the death of a large piece of Amiga history. When our original Amigas die, it dies. :(
Amiga genlocking works on Natami. I expect external genlocks to work just fine.
We decided to put 15KHz RGB video output/input on a small expansion board to keep costs down for people who are fine with just having DVI/VGA.
Zorro cards is a different question. Natami is PCI only for now. Theoretically, a Zorro expansion could be made for the SZorro bus. This is not anything we will be pursuing ourselves, but we take care not to break the possibility of doing it. (AutoConfig-wise, etc.)
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Oh really?!?
So now I'm spreading false media? :)
Amiga genlocking works on Natami. I expect external genlocks to work just fine.
We decided to put 15KHz RGB video output/input on a small expansion board to keep costs down for people who are fine with just having DVI/VGA.
Zorro cards is a different question. Natami is PCI only for now. Theoretically, a Zorro expansion could be made for the SZorro bus. This is not anything we will be pursuing ourselves, but we take care not to break the possibility of doing it. (AutoConfig-wise, etc.)
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Wrong. They have never promised this, the only project that has promised 100% compatibility
Erm... afraid your wrong there... when I first heard of the NatAmi last year and visited the site 100% backwards compatibility was clearly stated on it and is the main reason why I support this project so much... ;)
Think about it like this, is a stock Commodore A1200 able to run 100% of Amiga software? Even with hacks like WHDLoad, an A1200 will probably struggle to run some old OCS software (stuff that relies on Kick 1.2 for instance). There has never been (AFAIK) an Amiga that ran 100% of all Amiga software.
Well... duh... were not talking about the user having to add hacks or stuff like WHDload just to run some games, when they said 100% backwards compatible I realised that this would mean the same problems a REAL A1200 would have for example in trying to run some really old stuff... ;)
On top of this, backwards compatibility has never been the prime focus of Natami (unlike the CloneA), but rather the focus has been on pushing the Amiga architecture forward. Here's an interview (from March 2011) with a Natami team member that gives a more realistic assessment:
http://www.reviewmylife.co.uk/blog/2011/03/23/natami-native-amiga-interview/
Well like I say that's not what I read last year on their site and it's the main reason why I think the NatAmi is such a promising piece of kit, so either your wrong or they lied on their website, only time will tell... :)
You're missing the point about the statements that have been made in this thread. The people who have commented aren't against Natami per se, but rather have disagreed with distorted statements about the Natami. It's the statements that are the issue, not the hardware.
Just like them, I like the Natami, and am interested in seeing it released, but get pissed off when people make stupid statements about the power it'll have, as it makes the project seem more ridiculous than it actually is. Tone down the hype and all will be well.
Cobblers... if you believe that then your dumber than I gave you credit for... ;)
If people are so "pissed off" about stupid statements then complain to the NatAmi team and site as I am only going by what I have read on their site... :)
This project may "seem ridiculous" to you and it's obvious you don't like it despite your claim to the contrary, so lets just say I choose to believe what the developers say rather than someone who just seems to want to criticise them for the sake of it... ;)
PS: Tone down the criticising and every thing will be hunkey dorey... :)
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Erm... afraid your wrong there... when I first heard of the NatAmi last year and visited the site 100% backwards compatibility was clearly stated on it and is the main reason why I support this project so much... ;)
You should support the CloneA then. The Natami team have never promised 100% backwards compatibility, if you know they did then share the website link.
This project may "seem ridiculous" to you and it's obvious you don't like it despite your claim to the contrary
Really? Let's look at it this way, offers to join the Natami team:
HenryCase: 1
Franko: ???
As I said before, I like the Natami, have supported it/defended it for about 3/4 years, and am excited about its release. What annoys me is the fanboys who make outlandish claims not based in reality (plenty of examples if you need them), which makes it harder for people like me to convince skeptics to take the project seriously.
I'm repeating myself now, if you can't understand that I don't have a problem with the Natami by now then you're not listening.
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You should support the CloneA then. The Natami team have never promised 100% backwards compatibility, if you know they did then share the website link.
Really? Let's look at it this way, offers to join the Natami team:
HenryCase: 1
Franko: ???
As I said before, I like the Natami, have supported it/defended it for about 3/4 years, and am excited about its release. What annoys me is the fanboys who make outlandish claims not based in reality (plenty of examples if you need them), which makes it harder for people like me to convince skeptics to take the project seriously.
I'm repeating myself now, if you can't understand that I don't have a problem with the Natami by now then you're not listening.
So now we are keeping score? Can you get any more childish?
I think this is nothing more than pessimism vs optimism. So can we just leave it at that? I for one am an optimist which means NatAmi rules supreme! :)
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I for one am a pessi-optimist.
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So now we are keeping score? Can you get any more childish?
Nope, that's pretty much as childish as it gets for me, but if you have someone doubting whether you support the Natami you can't get a bigger indication that this is false than being offered to join the team making it.
Just as a side note, activity on Natami forums has been a little slow all of a sudden (no new posts this week), perhaps it would be good for Natami fans to show your appreciation in a more direct manner, get some activity going again:
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=0
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You should support the CloneA then. The Natami team have never promised 100% backwards compatibility, if you know they did then share the website link.
Erm... here where it says "The Natami is compatible to the OCS/ECS/AGA AMIGA chipsets"
http://www.natami.net/amiga-compatible.htm
So unless the term "compatible" is being used here to mean "ok it might be wee bit compatible and not exactly quite compatible" then I take that to mean it will be 100% friggin compatible... ;)
Really? Let's look at it this way, offers to join the Natami team:
HenryCase: 1
Franko: ???
Big deal "you offered to join the NatAmi team" heck I offered to join the Brownies but I don't boast about it and what the frig has that got to do with the price of cheese in Afghanistan... :rolleyes:
PS: They turned me down cos I didn't have a beard... :(
As I said before, I like the Natami, have supported it/defended it for about 3/4 years, and am excited about its release. What annoys me is the fanboys who make outlandish claims not based in reality (plenty of examples if you need them), which makes it harder for people like me to convince skeptics to take the project seriously.
I'm repeating myself now, if you can't understand that I don't have a problem with the Natami by now then you're not listening.
You've got a strange way of showing your support, lets see... hmmm... you back up people who pop into a thread rattling their gums about other processor speeds that have sod all to do with the Natami, then you complain about folk saying how a happy they are about the NatAmi and tell them not to "hype" it up by saying things that have been clearly claimed on the NatAmi site and elsewhere... :rolleyes:
Yeah you're a really great supporter of the project aint ya... ;)
Note to self: Never have HeadCase sorry HenryCase on your side, stick to your enemies, at least their consistent... :)
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So will this be PAL based or NTSC based?
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I for one am a pessi-optimist.
How does that work? :confused:
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I live in good faith, yet remain critical and cautious of the environment around me. Simple. :)
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I live in good faith, yet remain critical and cautious of the environment around me. Simple. :)
Don't call Kesa "Simple" it's not his fault, he was frightened once by a giant floating turd while surfing, or had you forgotten... now leave dolly alone... ;)
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I live in good faith, yet remain critical and cautious of the environment around me. Simple. :)
Seems an awfully boring way to live life. What you want to do is get s**t faced then everything will just start to make sense. Which is exactly what i am doing right now :drink:
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Don't call Kesa "Simple" it's not his fault, he was frightened once by a giant floating turd while surfing, or had you forgotten... now leave dolly alone... ;)
F**k me! I was just thinking about that turd about 4 minutes ago! :roflmao:
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Seems an awfully boring way to live life. What you want to do is get s**t faced then everything will just start to make sense. Which is exactly what i am doing right now :drink:
Who said I don't find time for mind altering substances? I just choose to look both ways before crossing the high way. :)
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F**k me! I was just thinking about that turd about 4 minutes ago! :roflmao:
Do you have Daymare's about the turd? :)
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Do you have Daymare's about the turd? :)
Only when I'm day dreaming. Which is most of the time so yes. Yes i do.
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F**k me! I was just thinking about that turd about 4 minutes ago! :roflmao:
I knew it... you've been mentally scared for life by that experience... ;)
That's one of the reasons why I don't go near Water (cept for me annual bath) you never know what's lurking in the depths just waiting to nab you... :nervous:
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So will this be PAL based or NTSC based?
Yes.
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Yes.
In other words...
BOTH...
Why you guys always have to be so cryptic? :)
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In other words...
BOTH...
Why you guys always have to be so cryptic? :)
I encrypted my answer on purpose because it was a very silly question. :)
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I encrypted my answer on purpose because it was a very silly question. :)
Next question: Why is it a silly question?
I'm currently having problems getting my NTSC SuperGen+ to work with my PAL Amiga(s), so I've been shopping for NTSC Amigas to resolve the issue.
In the conversation above I was told I'd be able to use my SuperGen+ with this, so I'm wondering...
...will my NTSC hardware work with it?
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I encrypted my answer on purpose because it was a very silly question. :)
How can it be a silly question if i didn't ask it?
Has any noticed it Trevors Dicks birthday?
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Cheaper than an AGA Amiga with an 060, extra mem, fast ata etc.. that's for sure. Building a decent classic 'miggy is expensive and Natami will end up being not just the better, but also cheaper option.
NATAMI Cheaper ?, I doubt it.
FPGAReplay is going to be cheaper.
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@ alexH
Of course I discount UAE as it's plain and simply got as much in common with "real" amiga as Amiga Forever has... (ie: sod all) ;)
The MiniMig while a great product was never for me (took them too long to make it AGA and no AGA then no Amiga), quite simply the specs the NatAmi is offering is what I want & require from an Amiga and all the other reasons I've given before... :)
Minimig has *NEVER* had, nor will it ever have AGA, it simply has no room to put it in to the FPGA Bitfile.
I know people have been talking about FPGAReplay, and labeled it "Minimig AGA", but that was more built as a device to run Arcade Roms, it just so happens that because of the FPGA size, they have got a preliminary AGA chipset for the minimig core ported to it. But again, due to the size of the Bitfile, it will NEVER fit in to the FPGA used in the Minimig, not only the size, but the number of I/O lines in the smaller FPGA chip too.
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@Franko
Erm... here where it says "The Natami is compatible to the OCS/ECS/AGA AMIGA chipsets"
http://www.natami.net/amiga-compatible.htm
So unless the term "compatible" is being used here to mean "ok it might be wee bit compatible and not exactly quite compatible" then I take that to mean it will be 100% friggin compatible...
Ah, I see where you've misinterpreted things now. Simply put, compatible != 100% compatible. Think about it like this, Minimig v1.1 has an OCS core, it's OCS compatible, but it's not 100% OCS compatible. The reason being, it's not the original chipset, it a recreation, a clone, based on available documentation and code.
The same is true with Natami. It won't include original OCS/ECS/AGA Amiga chipsets, it'll include clones of those chipsets.
Now I'm not knocking the Minimig or the Natami, I think both are great and will continue getting better, but I understand that achieving that fabled '100% compatibility' is a hard task. If you don't believe me, take a look at UAE, which has been in active development for 15 years. Even now, with the latest versions of WinUAE, you'll find minor fixes for games/applications. Part of the reason is that the documentation for the Amiga is incomplete, and even if we had the original design documents, this isn't enough, as there are undocumented features/bugs in the hardware that you have to emulate/recreate for 100% compatibility.
The interview I shared with you earlier gives a more realistic idea of what compatibility to expect. What I wouldn't want you doing is getting people excited about 100% compatibility on the Natami, only for them to find it's not the case when it's released. If I've burst your bubble of excitement then I'm sorry, it's not my intention, I believe you can still be excited about the Natami even if it doesn't run all Amiga software out of the box.
Big deal "you offered to join the NatAmi team"
I didn't offer, I was offered. PM from Gunnar back in March 2008, asking me whether I'd be interested in joining the team, helping out with Coldfire coding (back when they were considering Coldfire). I declined as didn't think my skillset quite fit (plus I didn't think I'd be comfortable dealing with all of the Amiga community in a diplomatic way, as this thread shows!), but took it as a recognition of my support (I helped keep the peace in early Natami threads on AW.net). So yeah, bit different from your Brownies example, but good luck with getting in! ;-)
You've got a strange way of showing your support, lets see... hmmm... you back up people who pop into a thread rattling their gums about other processor speeds that have sod all to do with the Natami, then you complain about folk saying how a happy they are about the NatAmi and tell them not to "hype" it up by saying things that have been clearly claimed on the NatAmi site and elsewhere...
You see disagreement, I see progress. The criticism in this thread has been fairly mild compared to what it was in the past. At the very least the criticism was focused on performance benchmarks. What I saw was that people saw elaborating on what the benchmarks mean as an attack on the project itself, which wasn't the case. I'm posting as a mediating influence to stop people making claims they can't back up to defend the project. The project stands on its own merits, it does not need to be called into question with dubious claims.
@whiteb
Minimig has *NEVER* had, nor will it ever have AGA, it simply has no room to put it in to the FPGA Bitfile.
I know people have been talking about FPGAReplay, and labeled it "Minimig AGA", but that was more built as a device to run Arcade Roms, it just so happens that because of the FPGA size, they have got a preliminary AGA chipset for the minimig core ported to it. But again, due to the size of the Bitfile, it will NEVER fit in to the FPGA used in the Minimig, not only the size, but the number of I/O lines in the smaller FPGA chip too.
There are two (equal) definitions of Minimig:
1. The physical board known as Minimig.
2. The FPGA core known as Minimig.
Both are equally correct. Therefore, it is inaccurate to say there is not a Minimig AGA, as there clearly is (using definition 2).
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Erm... afraid your wrong there... when I first heard of the NatAmi last year and visited the site 100% backwards compatibility was clearly stated on it and is the main reason why I support this project so much... ;)
NATAMI have *NEVER* boasted 100% compatibility. Given you are using an FPGA to mimic the chipset, you are at BEST, an APPROXIMATION of the chipset.
You can get it *CLOSE*, but if you want 100% compatibility, then use a REAL amiga.
Even Minimig, does not boast 100% compatible, and lets face it, those working on the firmware have done an EXCELLENT job, there are some titles that will *JUST NOT* run, and the same will happen with NATAMI.
Topics on Compatibility:
The NatAmi is compatible to the OCS/ECS/AGA AMIGA chipsets.
It says "Compatible", not 100%.
Like I said, Minimig is Compatible, but not 100%.
AMIGA applications, games and demos that run on classic 68060-Systems,
will run on NATAMI as long as they have not any constrains to chipset timings/limitations.
SO they have openly admitted there will be some incompatibilities, therefor, not 100%.
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@whiteb
There are two (equal) definitions of Minimig:
1. The physical board known as Minimig.
2. The FPGA core known as Minimig.
Both are equally correct. Therefore, it is inaccurate to say there is not a Minimig AGA, as there clearly is (using definition 2).
Yeah thats right, Definition 2 (At least the AGA version), does not run on Definition 1.
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You can get it *CLOSE*, but if you want 100% compatibility, then use a REAL amiga.
...or a CloneA (if/when released).
Yeah thats right, Definition 2 (At least the AGA version), does not run on Definition 1.
Yes. My point is that 'Minimig AGA' is not an inaccurate name for what it is, it perfectly describes what it is. Consider this, when Dennis was writing the Verilog for the Minimig before the first Minimig PCBs were produced, he still had a Minimig when he ran the Verilog HDL in a simulator. The name belongs to the HDL core, it just so happens one of the early Minimig platforms shared its name.
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You missed my point. It's common knowledge that Pegasos2 G3 sucks in memory performance department. Pegasos2 G3 is particularly slow in memory operations, slower than some other G3 systems with some other chip sets. So it does not give you G3 600 memory performance benchmark to compare against.
And what about Pegasos 1 mem speed with G3.are they faster or slower as Peg 2 ?
as far i know we have in amiga land no 600 MHZ G4 system.so my guess is gunnar mean with his statement the G3 that is clocked with 600 MHZ on peg 1 or peg 2 or on some aone.and speed values of other old 600 MHZ g3 or G4 System i do not see.
Your Mac 1.5 GHZ values are not usefull, to verify if the statement that natami is faster as PPC 600 is correct or not
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...or a CloneA (if/when released).
Yes. My point is that 'Minimig AGA' is not an inaccurate name for what it is, it perfectly describes what it is. Consider this, when Dennis was writing the Verilog for the Minimig before the first Minimig PCBs were produced, he still had a Minimig when he ran the Verilog HDL in a simulator. The name belongs to the HDL core, it just so happens one of the early Minimig platforms shared its name.
Well, I have not read what methods Jens is using to reproduce the AGA chipset, you can use Technical manuals and write approximations in to VHDL, or you can use Reverse Engineering techniques, where you can use solvents to dissolve the ceramic of the chip and gain access to the core. Either way, It is still using FPGA, but Jens is likely to have more accurate timings between the custom chips in his version..
Jens has only so far announced CloneA to implement OCS (That I can see).
I still think FPGAReplay is the one to watch.
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you can use Reverse Engineering techniques, where you can use solvents to dissolve the ceramic of the chip and gain access to the core.
Eh? They don't do that in the case of ceramic chips. They take the ceramic off the chip mechanically and use solvents to remove layers of the chip itself. But this type of reverse engineer is unlikely to be used for Amiga. More likely observations on I/O.
Either way, It is still using FPGA, but Jens is likely to have more accurate timings between the custom chips in his version.
The fact that it uses an FPGA is irrelevant. You can make a 100% accurate recreation of the digital portions of the Amiga chipset using an FPGA.
MiniMig was/is the underlying HDL core. The logic definition files. The PCB which bares its name is just an FPGA board, nothing more. The fact you had MiniMig running on 3 different FPGA boards before it existed should point to this. Also the fact you can get MegaDrive, Spectrum, MSX and other cores which run on that PCB shows you that it is not tied to MiniMig.
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Well, I have not read what methods Jens is using to reproduce the AGA chipset, you can use Technical manuals and write approximations in to VHDL, or you can use Reverse Engineering techniques, where you can use solvents to dissolve the ceramic of the chip and gain access to the core. Either way, It is still using FPGA, but Jens is likely to have more accurate timings between the custom chips in his version..
Logic analysers are the main tool being used, from what I understand. Idea is to recreate the chipset(s) in a cycle-exact way, so that they behave in an identical way to the originals.
Jens has only so far announced CloneA to implement OCS (That I can see).
Not quite. Indivision ECS has HDL code from CloneA, and a completed AGA implementation has been hinted at, at least. See here:
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=712136&postcount=14
However, it is true that the OCS core is the only one to have been publicly demonstrated. For all those who haven't seen it already, torrent link for download here (used to be on Google Video, can't find it anymore):
http://breakpoint.untergrund.net/torrents/BP07_Seminar_JensSchoenfeld_Amiga_XViD.avi.torrent
I still think FPGAReplay is the one to watch.
Whilst I think interesting projects are happening all across the Amiga landscape, FPGAReplay is a great project, no doubt.
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NATAMI have *NEVER* boasted 100% compatibility. Given you are using an FPGA to mimic the chipset, you are at BEST, an APPROXIMATION of the chipset.
You can get it *CLOSE*, but if you want 100% compatibility, then use a REAL amiga.
Even Minimig, does not boast 100% compatible, and lets face it, those working on the firmware have done an EXCELLENT job, there are some titles that will *JUST NOT* run, and the same will happen with NATAMI.
It says "Compatible", not 100%.
Like I said, Minimig is Compatible, but not 100%.
SO they have openly admitted there will be some incompatibilities, therefor, not 100%.
I agree with you but different Amiga models used different speeds of ROM/memory, so therefore even an A600 was never 100% cycle exact to say an A1000 or A2000. That why WHDLoad was invented ;)
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Can you tell me where Cammy posted this? Did you quote her then change her post when you quoted her to attack Alex? A bit suspicious...
I swear it was there ask Cammy, it leaves 2 choices:
A) Deleted by Cammy herself
B) Deleted by a Moderator
No delusional drugs here buddy :P
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@ whiteb
Name those titles you claim "will JUST NOT run" oh wise one... :)
Point is if all that is claimed on the NatAmi site is true and what the developers have said is true, then for me the NatAmi is the closest things we are ever going to have as being basically a brand new A1200 that you will be able to buy and easily add HD's etc too, without paying an arm & a leg on eBay to buy some 20 year old equipment that may or may not be working... :)
Put it this way if the NatAmi could run ALL Amiga software WITHOUT the need for patches or WHDLoad etc..., then it would actually be better than a real Amiga but it wont be and I'm not expecting it too... ;)
I expect to have the same problems I would encounter on a real A1200 trying to run some really old stuff on it and that's what makes it truly comaptible... ;)
Never cared for the MiniMig as it wasn't AGA as far as I knew but googling it you find stuff that claim it was, either way it doesn't matter to me personally as the MiniMig, Clone-A and FPGAReplay don't impress me but the NatAmi does so my only interest lies in the NatAmi... ;)
All the talk about this is faster, that is better and all the rest such rubbish opinions mean diddly squat to me as well. I'll go by what the developers say and what I read on the NatAmi site and when the beta-testing is all said and done and it lives up to the hype, then I'll be first in line to buy one, then and only then will I know if it's all it's claimed to be but I'm quite prepared to take that chance... :)
So no matter how much all the armchair experts want to claim this and that about the NatAmi and what they THINK it can and cannot do, how it should have been done better and rattle their gums about the speed other processors can run at, or gibber jobbies about whether the MiniMig is AGA or not, I COULDN'T GIVE A SH!TE... :)
When the NatAmi is finally ready and promises to live up to what has been claimed of it by the developers, then they have at least one assured customer in me and THAT is all that matters to me... ;)
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Back on the topic of Natamis, saw this video on YouTube the other day, think it would be a good target for Natami to aim for to show off its performance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02ZJNz3kt9o
If Quake 2 runs that well on a 68060 (admittedly with a Voodoo 3 card too) on a normal Amiga, I imagine you'd be looking at comparable (or possibly better, with the increased memory performance) results on a Natami. Worth a go at least, right? :-)
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Back on the topic of Natamis, saw this video on YouTube the other day, think it would be a good target for Natami to aim for to show off its performance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02ZJNz3kt9o
If Quake 2 runs that well on a 68060 (admittedly with a Voodoo 3 card too) on a normal Amiga, I imagine you'd be looking at comparable (or possibly better, with the increased memory performance) results on a Natami. Worth a go at least, right? :-)
Not having a go here... but... AAAARGH... :(
Why do people have to compare how good a computer is by talking about crappy games like Quake, Doom and all those other looky like pieces of junk... :confused:
The Amiga (and NatAmi hopefully) is far more than a games machine (and has far better games than Doom or it's clones for it anyway) so why do folk always have to judge a machine by how well it can play one of these poxy ruddy games... :confused:
Get right on my diddies that does... :rolleyes:
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so why do folk always have to judge a machine by how well it can play one of these poxy ruddy games...
People use these types of games as yardstick of performance as they're fast paced action games, open-source and ported to many platforms that (in the case of the Quake series) have framerate capturing tools built in (maybe Doom does too, not sure).
If you know of a better game to measure 3D performance, please suggest it.
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People use these types of games as yardstick of performance as they're fast paced action games, open-source and ported to many platforms that (in the case of the Quake series) have framerate capturing tools built in (maybe Doom does too, not sure).
If you know of a better game to measure 3D performance, please suggest it.
Think you missed the point I was making here.. ;)
Who cares about 3D performance on an Amiga... :confused:
26 years and since, I have never bought one Amiga just because of it's "3D performance"... I bought it because I saw what it was capable of back then and it had nothing to do whatsover with "3D performance" and that never will come into the equation for me... :)
It must be a modern generation thing where folk can only justify to themselves that a computer is good because of it's "3D Performance", if that's the case why not just stick with an XBOX or PS3 or whatever and leave the Amiga to folk who find them creative and useful and not just another box to play Doom ruddy clone on... ;)
Gawd... sometimes I really feel sorry for todays generation of "computer users" if all that's important to them is how fast it can draw a frame in a ruddy "3D game"... :cry:
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Who cares about 3D performance on an Amiga... :confused:
The idea is to test out the limits of the system.
It's certainly not in question that 2D performance will be fine (should exceed NeoGeo 2D performance, possibly even Saturn 2D performance, and I doubt any new 2D game made for the Amiga is going to reach the graphics standard of games on those systems). The more interesting question is what 3D performance will be like.
If that doesn't float your boat, fine, but it's interesting to some of us.
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So... Will my NTSC SuperGen work?
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So... Will my NTSC SuperGen work?
Erm... It should do in NTSC mode... but that's providing of course that you can hook it from it's 23 pin socket to the NatAmi's Amiga Video output in some way of course... :)
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So... Will my NTSC SuperGen work?
Franko may well be right but this is just the sort of question you should post on the Natami forums. Gunnar seems to read everything, dunno how he finds the time.
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Erm... It should do in NTSC mode... but that's providing of course that you can hook it from it's 23 pin socket to the NatAmi's Amiga Video output in some way of course... :)
That's not enough. The NatAmi would also have to either run off of or synchronize itself to the 28Mhz clock and the H and V Sync signals provided by the genlock, and the NatAmi would also have to provide the pixel switch signal to the genlock.
And I'm guessing it can do none of those things.
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That's not enough. The NatAmi would also have to either run off of or synchronize itself to the 28Mhz clock and the H and V Sync signals provided by the genlock, and the NatAmi would also have to provide the pixel switch signal to the genlock.
And I'm guessing it can do none of those things.
You could be right... :)
Haven't seen enough about the actual RGB video output specs on the NatAmi to say for certain one way or the other... :)
For me personally it would be no great loss but obviously for folk like XDelusion then things like this will play a part in their decision on whether to buy or not, guess only one of the developers could answer such questions... :)
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The idea is to test out the limits of the system.
It's certainly not in question that 2D performance will be fine (should exceed NeoGeo 2D performance, possibly even Saturn 2D performance, and I doubt any new 2D game made for the Amiga is going to reach the graphics standard of games on those systems). The more interesting question is what 3D performance will be like.
If that doesn't float your boat, fine, but it's interesting to some of us.
This could be a problem. The Amiga was never designed to work with 3d engines like Doom so i think using these 3d games 'to test out the limits of the system' is not the right way of measuring the performance of the NatAmi's. Not sure if using 3d benchmarking is relevant. Even though i still find it very interesting. Is it possible to use a better benchmark?
Also the current benchmarking was not designed to work at 060 and above (?) so is it still relevant?
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Is it possible to use a better benchmark?
What do you suggest we use instead?
Dry numerical benchmarks may be more accurate, but they don't capture the imagination in the same way. A demo coding competition may be an option, but that only really applies after the hardware has had a full launch. A launch title or two is an option, but they're unlikely to stretch the hardware without extensive effort being put into them.
In my mind that only really leaves one option, which is re-using existing code. Do you agree? So what existing code is likely to be a better way to show off the power of the hardware than Quake 2?
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What do you suggest we use instead?
Dry numerical benchmarks may be more accurate, but they don't capture the imagination in the same way. A demo coding competition may be an option, but that only really applies after the hardware has had a full launch. A launch title or two is an option, but they're unlikely to stretch the hardware without extensive effort being put into them.
In my mind that only really leaves one option, which is re-using existing code. Do you agree? So what existing code is likely to be a better way to show off the power of the hardware than Quake 2?
Quake2... Gawd... that would be enough to put me of the NatAmi for life... :rolleyes:
You want a better suggestion instead of advertising it as just another board to play crap on then, how about a new or updated Web Browser to take advantage of it's speed and inbuilt features, or how about new GFX package to show of the new GFX modes... :)
There's a couple for starters and none of them "DOOM CLONE RELATED", I get it by now that your a fan of these type of games but not everyone is and not everyone is wanting to pay a small fortune for the NatAmi just to be able to do so... :)
You keep asking people what do you suggest but can only come up with the same answer time and time again, why not try and suggest something else yourself (and I don't mean the same old Quake 2 or Doom clone answer) instead of just criticising others and giving the same answer over and over again... ;)
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And I'm guessing it can do none of those things.
Being FPGA and as flexible as it looks, I'm guessing it can do those things..
Whether or not it WILL do them is another question. ;-)
desiv
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I get it by now that your a fan of these type of games
Actually I'm not.
You keep asking people what do you suggest but can only come up with the same answer time and time again
I keep suggesting the same answer because nobody is offering anything better, and it's the best one I can think of.
A web browser, not bad, but not terribly impressive either. Remember, we're looking for something to show of the power of the system, a web browser is a useful tool but I rarely go to a webpage and get blown away by the graphics.
So what would be more impressive, graphics wise, than Quake 2 (and yes I know I said that name again, let's see if you can respond reasonably)?
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Actually I'm not.
I keep suggesting the same answer because nobody is offering anything better, and it's the best one I can think of.
A web browser, not bad, but not terribly impressive either. Remember, we're looking for something to show of the power of the system, a web browser is a useful tool but I rarely go to a webpage and get blown away by the graphics.
So what would be more impressive, graphics wise, than Quake 2 (and yes I know I said that name again, let's see if you can respond reasonably)?
There's no arguing with a one track mind is there... :)
I gave you two perfectly good suggestions, and surprise, surprise what do you respond with "QUAKE RUDDY 2"... :rolleyes:
I'll put it a simply as I can "QUAKE 2" or any type of 3D game is not going to impress someone like me in the slightest bit whatsoever... ;)
In fact just the opposite it would put me off buying the thing if it's claim to fame was "Look I can play 3D style Games just like a PC or a games console"... :(
Such things may impress you but the have the exact opposite affect on me. Think about it in all honesty for a minute. With the estimated price a NatAmi is going to cost how many folk who are really willing to pay that price are going to do so just to play a 3D style game that they could do so better on a higher powered and cheaper PC or games console... ;)
Do you get it now... for the price and potential buyers it is aimed at 3D games are not going to be impressive to most of them for exactly the reasons I have given above... :)
There's a very reasonable response for you, now you come up with a decent suggestion yourself and not this teenage boy racer mentality you have and you're obvious easily pleased attitude of "oh look... it plays Quake 2, that's well worth spending all that dosh on just to try and look cool"... :)
I eagerly await your answer... :)
Let me guess... erm Quake 2 by any chance... :rolleyes:
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Why don't you guys do a custom natami demo to show off the systems capabilities then? You can use 16 bit sound and some ridiculous 3d graphics. Much in the style of old school amiga demos, but with better sound, richer graphics and smoother animations due to increased processor capability. If you really want to push the system and show it off right, a custom programmed demo would be best.
EDIT : I agree with franko, if people are just interested in quake, they can play that on any crap pc...
Steven
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Why don't you guys do a custom natami demo to show off the systems capabilities then? You can use 16 bit sound and some ridiculous 3d graphics. Much in the style of old school amiga demos, but with better sound, richer graphics and smoother animations due to increased processor capability. If you really want to push the system and show it off right, a custom programmed demo would be best.
EDIT : I agree with franko, if people are just interested in quake, they can play that on any crap pc...
Steven
I'd be far more impressed by something like that than seeing it run Quake 2 or similar. At least the demoscene guys come up with some very impressive and original GFX effects that have often left me saying "now that is neat & impressive" and "gawd... I wonder how they created those effects"... :)
Anything really would be better than "aw crap it's another PC/ console clone that's only built for playing those ruddy 3D style games that all look and play the same"... ;)
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Yep, a Natami demo contest is in order! :)
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Yep, a Natami demo contest is in order! :)
Erm... slight problem... how we gonna write demos to take advantage of it's features until we own one... :confused:
Could use our imaginations I suppose, anyone got a spare imagination I could borrow for a few days, I'll give it back (washed & folded of course) honest... :)
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Let me guess... erm Quake 2 by any chance... :rolleyes:
No flies on you, eh.
Like it or not, the main draw of the NatAmi is SuperAGA (that's what sets it apart from the FPGAArcade). Reading through posts on natami.net, the impression I get is that the graphics side of the chipset is where most of the improvements are being made at the moment. To help sell the NatAmi it makes sense to showcase the area where it offers the biggest improvement over the competition, do we at least agree on that?
From what I remember of your previous posts, you didn't/don't use your Amigas much for gaming. Nothing wrong with that, we're all free to use our computers how we wish, but I do wonder whether part of your assertion that I have a 'teenage boy racer mentality' comes out of this.
My concern is with showing NatAmi off, to generate more interest. It doesn't have to be competing with cutting edge devices, but it does have to be interesting, and when I say interesting I mean in a 'I never expected a retro machine to be able to do that' kind of way.
Your suggestions were a web browser and a paint program. Amigas already had great paint programs, plus to make the most impact you'd have to find talented artists to produce work using it, and that art needs to be noticeably better than the great work already produced on Amigas. How do you intend to make that difference noticeable? More colours?
As for the web browser suggestion, let's say we're looking at a faster, native port of Netsurf, which is probably the best option. Take a look at this screenshot of the native RiscOS version, and tell me honestly, are you interested in buying the machine it runs on?:
(http://www.netsurf-browser.org/about/screenshots/images/riscos-bbc.png)
Don't get me wrong, a web browser is definitely going to be a useful tool in getting people to buy, but it doesn't push the machine to the limit in a way that's truly going to grab people's attention. It's an essential, not something special.
With the estimated price a NatAmi is going to cost how many folk who are really willing to pay that price are going to do so just to play a 3D style game that they could do so better on a higher powered and cheaper PC or games console...
The idea is not that they'll buy a NatAmi to play an old game, but rather that it'll inspire them, knowing how much power they've got their hands on, to do great things with the machine. Think about when you first saw what the Amiga could do, the focus wasn't on mundane applications like spreadsheet and word processing software, it was on the power of the machine; the graphics, the sound, the fast multitasking, etc...
Believe it or not, I'm not tied to one game, and I'm trying to encourage some creative ideas, but they have to meet the criteria, and the only criteria is that the software must push what the machine can do in a noticeably impressive way. Think about if NatAmi got some magazine coverage, what would you want the screenshots to show?
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Erm... slight problem... how we gonna write demos to take advantage of it's features until we own one... :confused:
Exactly! I already stated this option and dismissed it for the same reason. However, once the machine is properly released I have big hopes it'll get used in demo competitions.
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Alright, we we find one of the best demo coders in the scene and offer him a beta board if he'll code for it.
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Alright, we we find one of the best demo coders in the scene and offer him a beta board if he'll code for it.
The NatAmi is still work in progress, they'd have to wait until it was finished before releasing a hardware-banging demo, otherwise the smallest change in functionality could break it.
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Well that settles it then. We need a time machine.
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I have big hopes it'll get used in demo competitions.
I find that unlikely. It couldn't compete with classic amigas since it'd be unfair. So the only category would be some "wild demo" or so. Also, more than often demo coders want to release their demos for platforms that are widely available.
At least one high profile & active amiga scener has already voiced his disinterest.
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Well that settles it then. We need a time machine.
I thought we settled this already??
I picked you guys up in my time machine, we "won" those lotteries..
Then took all the money and bought Commodore, Hyperion, etc... (Man, those lawyers were going crazy...)
Then we got Dave Haynie to head up the Natami acquisition and finished it up..
Funny that about those "patents" that we discovered that invalidated both the Apple and MS stuff, and we cornered the market..
Man that was awesome...
And then we..
wait..
what year is this??
Dangit..
nevermind..
TTYL.. (Not too much later tho..)
desiv
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No flies on you, eh.
There are but the squirrels pick them off and eat them for me... ;)
To cut quickly through all that you wrote there, I'll just answer quickly... :)
For the "boy racer mentality" re-read your previous posts... :)
Yup games on the Amiga never were a big part of it for me (can only say the one game that really impressed me back in the day was "The Feary Tale Adventure"... :)
You claim you'd need to find a great artist to demonstrate a new paint package, well that shouldn't be hard to do with the talent the Amiga Community has, so who's the great programmer your going to have to find to make this super duper version of Quake 2 then... ;)
Thing is your talking about having something for the launch date that will push and demonstrate the machines boundaries, how do you achieve that when only a limited number of people have access to the machines before they launch !!!
As for the magazine coverage (what magazines !!!) but if their was some, I would be looking more for an independent review of the machine, covering it's specs and a thorough testing by the reviewer/s and wouldn't be impressed by just some screenshots of a 3D style game or any screenshots for that matter, pretty GFX alone don't impress me, backwards compatibility and an honest review of the potential of the machine is what I look for... :)
Of course no matter what any of us have to say or what our opinions of it are at this moment in time really mean nothing until they day we can each get our grubby little mits on one and see what it can do for ourselves and hopefully inspire folk (myself included) to start writing new Amiga stuff to take advantage of it's basic speeds and new capabilities... :)
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I find that unlikely. It couldn't compete with classic amigas since it'd be unfair. So the only category would be some "wild demo" or so. Also, more than often demo coders want to release their demos for platforms that are widely available.
Sure, you wouldn't compete them directly against other Amigas, and the first demos for it probably would end up in the "wild" category, but hopefully it could develop into its own category. I'd say many people still look at the years when Amiga was at its peak as the golden age for demo coding, this nostalgia plus the chance to expand on an existing skillset should (hopefully) prove compelling to some in the demoscene. It's not guaranteed, but it's not out of the question either.
At least one high profile & active amiga scener has already voiced his disinterest.
That's just one person though, it's hardly indicative of a trend.
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@Franko
For the "boy racer mentality" re-read your previous posts...
Sorry, I can't see what you're referring to, please point out examples of what you mean.
so who's the great programmer your going to have to find to make this super duper version of Quake 2 then...
That's the good part, you wouldn't have to, it's already ported to 68K, at most you'd need a Warp3D driver for the NatAmi, but seeing as they're aiming for 100% compatibility that's already part of the plan, right. ;-)
Thing is your talking about having something for the launch date that will push and demonstrate the machines boundaries, how do you achieve that when only a limited number of people have access to the machines before they launch !!!
You achieve it by having something easy to port.
As for the magazine coverage (what magazines !!!)
Here's an example of a magazine that might be interested: http://www.retrogamer.net/
pretty GFX alone don't impress me
But they impress others. It doesn't make them automatically wrong just because they have a different opinion, does it.
Of course no matter what any of us have to say or what our opinions of it are at this moment in time really mean nothing until they day we can each get our grubby little mits on one and see what it can do for ourselves and hopefully inspire folk (myself included) to start writing new Amiga stuff to take advantage of it's basic speeds and new capabilities...
Probably the truest thing you've said today. I agree.
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Sure, you wouldn't compete them directly against other Amigas, and the first demos for it probably would end up in the "wild" category, but hopefully it could develop into its own category. I'd say many people still look at the years when Amiga was at its peak as the golden age for demo coding, this nostalgia plus the chance to expand on an existing skillset should (hopefully) prove compelling to some in the demoscene. It's not guaranteed, but it's not out of the question either.
That's just one person though, it's hardly indicative of a trend.
Wow... I actually agree with you on those points :eek:
Think I'd better go lie down for a wee while... :)
Night... Night... or Morning... Morning in your case (I think)... :)
PS: I just noticed your other post and would respond but it's 2:05 am here and I'm going to have me dinner and go to bed, you could probably guess my replies anyway... ;)
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Wow... I actually agree with you on those points :eek:
Think I'd better go lie down for a wee while... :)
A wise move. ; )
Night... Night... or Morning... Morning in your case (I think)... :)
I live in England, so its night night, same to you!
you could probably guess my replies anyway... ;)
Franko, predictable? Are you sure? I thought you were the mad hatter! ;-) Must try harder, don't let the sane ones drag you down to their level. ;-)
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@ HenryCase
I thought you lived in upside down land !!!
I'm sure you post with an Australian accent... ;)
England you say... you could be making that up and I wouldn't know, prove it then, if you really live in England then what colour is it... :)
PS: Had me dinner... now I'm really off to bed... :)
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Another thread invaded by the annoy frankos posts and hard to follow... where is the moderation in this f#ck#ng forum?
Go to see braveheart and relax franko.
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Or reenact brave heart in your local grocery store.
I know I do!
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@ HenryCase
England you say... you could be making that up and I wouldn't know, prove it then, if you really live in England then what colour is it... :)
Green fields, grey skies. See, I'm telling the truth. ;-)
@all
Apologies if found OT posts annoying.
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So... Will my NTSC SuperGen work?
If you can't get it to work on your real classic Amiga then how on Earth would it work on a Natami?
If your SuperGen won't work on your classic Amiga then either:
A: You are doing it wrong.
B: Your SuperGen is broken.
I cannot think of any other possible explanations.
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You keep asking people what do you suggest but can only come up with the same answer time and time again, why not try and suggest something else yourself (and I don't mean the same old Quake 2 or Doom clone answer) instead of just criticising others and giving the same answer over and over again... ;)
Hey guys before you murder each other, :) I already coded a timing test a century ago. It times the multilayer with transparency 2D blitting speed on AGA. It does CPU operations and memory reads and writes. It is a "real life" timing test from Total Chaos AGA. I have been doing timing tests on a wide range of Amiga hardware since 1985.
This test will not satisfy Henry Case and I already know he will write a big speech why this test sux, blahblahblah yadda yadda.
But I think Franko is scientific enough to at least appreciate the timing test for what it is: It is a timing test to measure how many layers of 2D gfx (with transparency) I can push around per frame on AGA.
Can we all go back to being friends again now? :)
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Well, I know that only two things were slow on my Amiga: AB3D II and Extreme Racing. NatAmi has more then enough power for those games. I would say several times more than enough power.
Soo one more thing is the amount of chip ram. Me and my bro always try to make marathon cartoons and run out of chip ram. So maybe now we can really let loose.
Easy connection to modern screens is also a big plus.
I know it will be much faster in rendering, but for my simple scenes in Maxon A1200 with fast ram is also enough :D
That's just off the top of my head for now...
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@ ChaosLord
Me scientific... nah... I'd don't believe anything until I have studied it thoroughly, scrupulously analysed it, studied it wee bit more then analysed it again just to make sure... ;)
Nothing scientific in that, just being picky... :)
@Lord AGA
With you on the Chip RAM, you can never have enough Chip RAM (although not quite the problem it was if you have plenty of Fast RAM & FBlit installed, good, but far from perfect)... :)
Thing is like I said before really until the day we can start to buy these for ourselves it's all just speculation and hope for now, only when folk have these little beauties themselves will we truly begin to find what the NatAmi is capable of... :)
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If you can't get it to work on your real classic Amiga then how on Earth would it work on a Natami?
If your SuperGen won't work on your classic Amiga then either:
A: You are doing it wrong.
B: Your SuperGen is broken.
I cannot think of any other possible explanations.
he is trying to use a PAL amiga with a NTSC genlock ... go figure!
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And another thing I just remembered :)
NatAmi will also have an A500 keyboard connector (in addition to standard keyboard connectors). Sooooo... :)
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And another thing I just remembered :)
NatAmi will have an A500 keyboard connector. Sooooo... :)
Drat... All I've got are A1200's and a couple of A2000 & A4000 keyboards... :(
Oh well better have a wee look on eBay now... :)
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Oh no, it will not be A500 connector only. Don't get me wrong.
You will be able to use your A2000/A4000 keyboards just fine. Also PC keyboards. But I don' think we like that :)
It is interesting to think of a say... a broken A500, with motherboard removed. And NatAmi motherboard inserted :)
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Oh no, it will not be A500 connector only. Don't get me wrong.
You will be able to use your A2000/A4000 keyboards just fine. Also PC keyboards. But I don' think we like that :)
It is interesting to think of a say... a broken A500, with motherboard removed. And NatAmi motherboard inserted :)
I did think I had read that somewhere that I could use the A2000 or A4000 keyboard with it... :)
While I'd most likely build a custom tower for mine (bit like my main A1200) to add plenty of HD's, DVD writers etc... I had also though it would be neat to build one into an A1200 case... :)
Suppose it will all depend on how good it is once it's launched and it's availability, might end up with one towered and another in an A1200 case... :)
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If you take a looksee at progress reports, you can see in the pics that right now the boards are working with big box Amiga keyboards.
And just like you, I already have several ideas how I would like to build my NatAmi setups.
Just need to rob a bank somewhere :D
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If you take a looksee at progress reports, you can see in the pics that right now the boards are working with big box Amiga keyboards.
And just like you, I already have several ideas how I would like to build my NatAmi setups.
Just need to rob a bank somewhere :D
Just make sure it's not the one in the High Street, cos I've been casing that joint for months now... ;)
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I think Piru feels threatened by the NatAmi, simple reason being that when it becomes available we will truly have a "new" Amiga that can run at speeds unheard of before (even with a PPC board), ease of use for adding things like HD's DVD writers etc... but most of all the threat comes from the fact that it's 68K (so to speak) and will run 3.x at speed we could only ever dream about before... :)
Yeah, and Cloanto's Amiga Forever runs about 5 times faster than you could dream about before. The only thing is you don't want to buy an advanced up to date computer to try it.
Piru, you shouldn't worry that this will stop people using MorphOS or that you'll lose custom because of it, as I reckon most MorphOS users are too mean anyway to shell out the cash that a NatAmi will cost, so you and the hundred or so MorphOS users can go on with your system while the rest of us real Amigans enjoy the dream machine we have waited so long for... ;)
Yeah, I want to shell out the cash, for another Amiga want to be that isn't up to date, or as fast as a so called piece of trash PC machine. The legacy lives on. YIPPPEEEE!!!
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Yeah, I want to shell out the cash, for another Amiga want to be that isn't up to date, or as fast as a so called piece of trash PC machine. The legacy lives on. YIPPPEEEE!!!
Hi Smerf... :)
Where you been you grumpy old fart... :)
Anyhoo... you aint got not taste man and you're far too sensible to appreciate what sploshing the dosh on a brand new outa date bit of hardware really means... ;)
You stick to crappy PC's and leave the Amiga Legacy & Tradition to be proudly continued by us loonies who know a real computer when we see one... :)
Cheers
Franko
PS: Did they manage to get all one hundered and eleventeen candle on your birthday cake... :)
EDIT: Oi... cheat you've just gone and an changed yer avy-tar... :(
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he is trying to use a PAL amiga with a NTSC genlock ... go figure!
Shouldn't matter. When plugged into a genlock, the Amiga is clocked by the clock on the genlock, not the clock on the motherboard. Plugging an NTSC genlock into a PAL Amiga should turn your PAL Amiga into an NTSC one, at least in theory.
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Hi,
@HenryCase,
You want an idea how to stress test your machine, the royal great Natami, have it play FarCry, Crysis, or Fallout 3. Then you will catch my interest, and I will definetly buy. Ubisoft started with Amiga, and with a few kind words they might just try porting it over to your machine (if it is good enough).
Don't get me wrong, but to me anything under 2.4 ghz is a total waste of time.
smerf
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Don't get me wrong, but to me anything under 2.4 ghz is a total waste of time.
Hello. Natami is a hobbyist project. We are pushing the limits for what is possible making an Amiga compatible system with current small-scale production tech. Producing a 2.4 GHz system like you are demanding would require hundreds of thousands of dollars for development and production. Would you be interested in financing that? Unless you want to, I suggest you stick with a standard PC if you need those speeds.
Natami is for people who actually want to use an Amiga-compatible computer with some modernizations, not for someone wanting to play the latest 3D games. It is a small niche system. Put it into some perspective.
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Hi Smerf... :)
Where you been you grumpy old fart... :)
Anyhoo... you aint got not taste man and you're far too sensible to appreciate what sploshing the dosh on a brand new outa date bit of hardware really means... ;)
You stick to crappy PC's and leave the Amiga Legacy & Tradition to be proudly continued by us loonies who know a real computer when we see one... :)
Cheers
Franko
PS: Did they manage to get all one hundered and eleventeen candle on your birthday cake... :)
EDIT: Oi... cheat you've just gone and an changed yer avy-tar... :(
Hi,
Have a bunch of real computers, An Amiga 4000, Amiga 1200, Amiga 3000, Amiga 500, CD32 with SX-1, and Cloanto's Amiga Forever.
Franko,
You stick to crappy Natami's and leave the Amiga Legacy & Tradition to be proudly continued by us loonies who know a real computer when we see one... :)
Just bustin ya, I will wait and see, wait for the Amiga people to go out and buy one, and see how they like it. If they praise it, I will probably buy one, but I still think that anything under 2.4 ghz is slow, but then again, in real time not computer time, windows is one big bloat machine, just don't understand how I could have a 6 core 3.2 ghz machine that is slower than my A4000 while running windows. I feel like I am back in the C64 days when I turn on my Quad core today, I start it then go make a cup of coffee while loading windows up. Once it gets up and running it is pretty good, and I play a bunch of games that stress's out the machine.
Lately I have been playing the add ons to Fallout New Vegas, the deadmans hearts game is just awsome, old world blues was pretty good, but broken hearts was just awful, took me only 4 hours to beat it. Getting ready to download Crysis 2, (I think) lost track of numbers, getting old you know, on my 112th birtday don't you know.
One thing I found out about PC games, you can beat them, try saying that about most Amiga games, they are very frustrating, but the one thing I liked about Amiga games is that they keep track of high scores which makes them a lot of fun.
Just a matter of what you call a real game.
by the way I changed my avatar back to the original, I thought the last one was a little cheesy ;-)
smerf
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You want an idea how to stress test your machine, the royal great Natami, have it play FarCry, Crysis, or Fallout 3. Then you will catch my interest, and I will definetly buy. Ubisoft started with Amiga, and with a few kind words they might just try porting it over to your machine (if it is good enough).
Yeah, port Fallout 3 to NatAmi and have people see it demoed as an underpowered PC as opposed to seeing something actually designed for its capabilities? That's a good idea.
I still cannot fathom this mindset that the only true measure of success for an Amigoid project is to be capable of copying everything the mainstream industry is doing. If your goal for such a project is just to become exactly like the industry standard, what the hell is the point? Just don't bother at all.
Don't get me wrong, but to me anything under 2.4 ghz is a total waste of time.
What the hell are you doing here, then?
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Yeah, port Fallout 3 to NatAmi and have people see it demoed as an underpowered PC as opposed to seeing something actually designed for its capabilities? That's a good idea.
I still cannot fathom this mindset that the only true measure of success for an Amigoid project is to be capable of copying everything the mainstream industry is doing. If your goal for such a project is just to become exactly like the industry standard, what the hell is the point? Just don't bother at all.
What the hell are you doing here, then?
Hi,
When the Amgia first came out, it was a top of the line futuristic machine. It was doing things that no other computer could do, that is why we all liked and purchased the Amiga.
Actually copying the mainstream industry today is just about what any computer should do. It would be hard to think up something new for a computer today. I don't want to see a copied little bit faster imitation Amiga coming out, I want to see something come out that could uphold the orginal Amiga, a machine that can take crysis and twirl it around it's space bar. I want new innovation, not copy cat tech. Apple changed, people cried, then went on with business as usual. What am I doing here?
You all cry about Cloanto's Amiga forever not being a real Amiga, yet it is using the latest hardware with the latest tech, just like the ORIGINAL AMIGA, yet you all want to see a redone out of date computer come to being.
My question to you is
WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING HERE?
THE ORIGINAL AMIGA WAS ABOUT INNOVATION, IT DIDN'T COPY ANY OTHER COMPUTER, IT WAS THE LATEST AND THE BEST, AND I WON'T LET ANY OTHER FAKE, IMMATATING SYSTEM TRY TO STEAL AWAY THE ORIGINAL AMIGA'S LEGACY.
SMERF
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I can not wait to see this in action. I hope something will be show this year at the AmiWest show. I miss being as involved in the Amiga scene as I once was and something like this would get me back into it for sure.
I'm looking to pick up a Minimeg, but if this is close to release would it be worth waiting for?
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Hi,
Blah... Blah... Blah... (sorry had to cut that part as it not what I'm going to post about)... :)
THE ORIGINAL AMIGA WAS ABOUT INNOVATION, IT DIDN'T COPY ANY OTHER COMPUTER, IT WAS THE LATEST AND THE BEST, AND I WON'T LET ANY OTHER FAKE, IMMATATING SYSTEM TRY TO STEAL AWAY THE ORIGINAL AMIGA'S LEGACY.
SMERF
Hi Smerf... :)
Your confused aint ya (forgot to take the meds toaday !!!)... :)
Yes the Amiga was Innovative, so why on frigging earth would anyone with any brains want to go to all this bother to create the NatAmi just so monkeys can play the crappiest games ever designed on it !!!
You talk about Fallout, Crysys 2 etc... (you know, the games brain dead people with no imagination play and are easily impressed by, poor sods) but you simply fail to understand the NatAmi wasn't designed to waste it's time on such crap... :)
You already have the solution to play such games, your PC's that you say are sooo great and yet your still not happy with them, you really are befudeled today... :(
So that begs the question, even though I know you've got a large Amiga collection that you don't use under the guise that you are "saving them" and instead choose to run an Amiga emulator on one of your crappy PC's that you don't even like... :confused:
Soooo, why do you bother with the Amiga at all if, A) You never use one (and no, running an emulator on a PC doesn't count) and B) Are you really not an old geezer after all and just some spotty seventeen year old who thinks 3D style games are cool and drives a laughable souped up tiny compact car where the sound system is worth more than the vehicle itself... :)
Cheers
Franko
PS: That avatars better, the jebus like one was more like one of XDelusions cast offs... :)
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When the Amgia first came out, it was a top of the line futuristic machine. It was doing things that no other computer could do, that is why we all liked and purchased the Amiga.
Huh. I got into the Amiga long after the fact, when it hadn't been state-of-the-art for years, because I found that it had a clever, well-thought-out design that I respected and wanted to experience.
Actually copying the mainstream industry today is just about what any computer should do.
But if you're just going to copy the mainstream, why bother at all? There are countless x86 PC manufacturers out there who make them better and cheaper than any hobbyist project ever could. There is exactly zero point in trying to best the whole PC-clone industry at its entire purpose.
It would be hard to think up something new for a computer today. I don't want to see a copied little bit faster imitation Amiga coming out, I want to see something come out that could uphold the orginal Amiga, a machine that can take crysis and twirl it around it's space bar. I want new innovation, not copy cat tech.
But if you think it's too hard to innovate, how can you turn around and demand innovation? Or if you don't think it's outside the realm of possibility, why do you think people shouldn't bother and just settle for copying what the rest of the industry is doing?
Apple changed, people cried, then went on with business as usual.
And now they make machines that are merely pretty good but overpriced PCs in fancy cases. Joy. But even now they're still doing their own thing with iOS devices and OSX, not simply copying everything the rest of the industry does.
My question to you is
WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING HERE?
THE ORIGINAL AMIGA WAS ABOUT INNOVATION, IT DIDN'T COPY ANY OTHER COMPUTER, IT WAS THE LATEST AND THE BEST, AND I WON'T LET ANY OTHER FAKE, IMMATATING SYSTEM TRY TO STEAL AWAY THE ORIGINAL AMIGA'S LEGACY.
I am here because I value the Amiga for what it is, not because I want a cool name to stick on my x86 clone box. I want to see projects like NatAmi come to fruition because they're trying to improve on the Amiga's substance, not some half-mythic Symbol that I worship.
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You want an idea how to stress test your machine, the royal great Natami, have it play FarCry, Crysis, or Fallout 3.
OK, so you want something that can do what's been done before.. Got it..
THE ORIGINAL AMIGA WAS ABOUT INNOVATION, IT DIDN'T COPY ANY OTHER COMPUTER, IT WAS THE LATEST AND THE BEST, AND I WON'T LET ANY OTHER FAKE, IMMATATING SYSTEM TRY TO STEAL AWAY THE ORIGINAL AMIGA'S LEGACY.
Ok.. so no copying...
So you're point is.. er.. um.. uh.. :confused:
desiv ;-)
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He he... I think Smerf got out smurfed today... :)
He'll be back (after his meds) to try once again and burst everyone's bubble, he's the best bubble burster around (normally), guess he was having an off day today... :)
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Don't get me wrong, but to me anything under 2.4 ghz is a total waste of time.
Don't buy the Natami then. Problem solved.
B) Are you really not an old geezer after all and just some spotty seventeen year old who thinks 3D style games are cool and drives a laughable souped up tiny compact car where the sound system is worth more than the vehicle itself... :)
Ah, so that's what you mean by 'boy racer mentality'. So anyone who enjoys games in 3D has a 'boy racer mentality, yes?
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Ah, so that's what you mean by 'boy racer mentality'. So anyone who enjoys games in 3D has a 'boy racer mentality, yes?
Correcto mundo... :)
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Correcto mundo... :)
Your perogative I suppose. Are you sure you're not just saying that because you don't enjoy them?
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Your perogative I suppose. Are you sure you're not just saying that because you don't enjoy them?
True & nope... :)
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True & nope... :)
Do you not think it's possible to create great games in 3D then?
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Do you not think it's possible to create great games in 3D then?
Nah... :)
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Nah... :)
Why? Why do you think 3D graphics are unsuitable for games?
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Why? Why do you think 3D graphics are unsuitable for games?
They're crap... :)
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They're crap... :)
Not pretty enough for you?
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Not pretty enough for you?
Too pretty... :)
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Too pretty... :)
So is it possible for any 2D games to be too pretty for you?
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Opppps...
It seems they made only 2 for developers and not 3. Duh!
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Opppps...
It seems they made only 2 for developers and not 3. Duh!
Thank you for offing Thumper! :lol:
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What's wrong with thumper? Thumper was cool and may yet make a reappearance :)
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What's wrong with thumper? Thumper was cool and may yet make a reappearance :)
That Thumpy McThumpThump Thumper Foot makes me drink too much!
Kill Thumper! :)
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Opppps...
It seems they made only 2 for developers and not 3. Duh!
Did wonder whether someone else had picked this up. Basically 4 Natami MX exist; in the Natami team Thomas has one (of course), Gunnar has one, Jens has one and Peter has one. That's it, so far, but 2 more are planned to be made soon.
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The more I learn about this project the more interesting it becomes to me. Looking forward to someday owning one!
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I am intrigued by the Natami. I can't wait to see it in action, and if the price is right, I would love to own one.
That being said, does anyone know approximately when it will be available to the public for purchase?
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I am intrigued by the Natami. I can't wait to see it in action, and if the price is right, I would love to own one.
That being said, does anyone know approximately when it will be available to the public for purchase?
Only when testing is complete. I'm sorry there is no calendar date set since all of the NatAmi team are hobbyist developers working in their spare time.
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Very true, but to quote Gunnar:
"Boards for the general public will be available later - But still this year."
Reference for quote: http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=33366&order=&x=15
I hope the Natami team can manage that but I (and I'm sure I speak for many others on this) would rather see a good finished job even if it takes a few months more if that's what is required. The whole team seem very dedicated to getting things right.
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Very true, but to quote Gunnar:
"Boards for the general public will be available later - But still this year."
Reference for quote: http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=33366&order=&x=15
I hope the Natami team can manage that but I (and I'm sure I speak for many others on this) would rather see a good finished job even if it takes a few months more if that's what is required. The whole team seem very dedicated to getting things right.
If that is still true, that boards for public sale will be ready before the end of this year, then I wish they would make an effort to get one of their developers to attend the AmiWest 2011 Show near the end of Oct. with a working prototype.