Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: haywirepc on August 05, 2011, 05:45:39 AM
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Can someone with an amithlon machine tell me, what cpu speed do you suggest as the lowest really workable solution for an amithlon machine if it will also be used to play games through emulation?
As I understand, amithlon screams running system friendly apps, but while thats great, I may also want to run games through the emulator.
In my experience with windows and linux, some more demanding amiga games did not run well on 1.5ghz and 2.0ghz machines. on 2.4 or 3.0ghz machines, all seemed fine.
I am wondering if amithlon can get away with a 1.5 or 1.8ghz processor speed. Anyone who has some experience with using amithlon and running emulator for the more demanding games, could you please chime in with your thoughts on this?
I suppose alot of this depends on your settings as well, so any thoughts on tweaking an older amithlon based machine for max performance so games won't be choppy would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Steven
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I had it running sweet on an Athlon XP 1800+ system with 68k UAE for games, it did not seem to have any problems. just make sure you get a supported GFX card, some work but dont support hardware acceleration correctly.
Even the realy old CPUs & mother boards will leave a real amiga for dead. the 1800+ was equivalent to a 1900Mhz 040
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If youre planning to use 68k amiga emulators inside amithlon then the more power the better. 68k uae for example I was never 100% happy with until I upgraded my amithlon box to a 3ghz core2duo. The athlon64 3400+ I used before than was good too, but I was left wanting when it comes to uae for aga and fpse (playstation emulator). I guess it also depends on how fussy a person is. If a person is happy to skip a frame or disable sound, etc. then you can get away with less, but if u want a system that deals with everything thrown at it flawlessly then a c2d at around 3ghz or higher is what you'll want.
This said though even with the a64 3400+ I could get 60+ fps at 1024x768 in quake2 (ironically muuuch faster than native on os4 even when os4 is using h/w acceleration), could watch dvd quality rips full speed full framerate, play any game mame will run, etc, etc. The only things that made me want to upgrade beyond that where HD video, uae for aga games, and fpse (playstation emu). Oh, and on the UAE topic, I highly recommend using euaeload as it makes it as simple as double clicking an icon to run any hardware hitting software (be it floppy based, whdload, or anything else installed to harddrive).
Coincidently enough my interest in amithlon has been renewed the last week or so, so Im currently in the process of setting it back up as well. Feel free to ask me for any info, etc. if you want/need it :)
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Fishy: So are we setting up a box for development per chance? ;)
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@XDelusion
Hehe, that's definately part of it, but really I just think amithlon rocks :)
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I had it running sweet on an Athlon XP 1800+ system with 68k UAE for games, it did not seem to have any problems.
and...
68k uae for example I was never 100% happy with until I upgraded my amithlon box to a 3ghz core2duo.
So, is this just perception or ????
That's a rather larger chasm there....
desiv
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Yes I was thinking the same thing myself. I do suppose alot has to do with having a supported accellerated graphics card.
Can anyone suggest an easy to find on ebay graphics card that amithlon fully supports?
Steven
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Voodoo 3, and I have your network card you need.
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Yes I was thinking the same thing myself. I do suppose alot has to do with having a supported accellerated graphics card.
Can anyone suggest an easy to find on ebay graphics card that amithlon fully supports?
Steven
Geforce 2.
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Dreamcast sounds great, find a supported video card on ebay, I'll send you a paypal for it. The system is bound to run better with a fast supported video card.
Steven
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amithlon is faster than winuae but not very faster...I calculate 1.2x speed on idem computer
to play amiga games that uses custom chips is much better and faster winuae than amithlon + uae 68k
so I prefer winuae all my life...does not need specific hardware and works better
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In my experience, the speed increase for non-game applications is far better and the lack of Microshaft overhead makes for a nicer experience. Until I get another Amiga, I'm making myself an AMD machine with Amithlon I can use for tinkering and boredom, and maybe development, if I can find some good tutorials for 68k assembly and C coding on the Amiga, then maybe I can try my hand at porting some applications for use on classic amiga, Amithlon and MorphOS as I alread have a MOS machine.
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For the record I *ONLY* ever used fully supported hadware with amithlon boxes. To not do so hurts more than gfx performance (vesa modes eat into cpu resources, its quite horrible). A c2d@3ghz-ish *IS* required for a flawless aga experience under 68k uae on amithlon. You can get away a lot less using only 68000/ocs/ecs software, but its not a case of perception,... you absolutely need the 3ghz c2d to have a flawless aga experience.
One word of warning though, ne careful who you listen to when it comes to amithlon,... lot of people who dont even understand it o know it seem to offer advice, which is mostly wrong. A Voodoo3 is for example a terrible choice. It's simply not supported properly. Anything Nvidia up to gf5xxx (although gf5xxxx is iffy, safer bet to use a gf4ti or gf3 based card, or a matro g100,g200,g400,g450,g550 card. The Matrox cards are also the only cards that support multiple monitors off one card in Amithlon as well.
As for Winuae vs Amithlon, theyre different beasts, but typically the heavier the load, the more Amithlon shines. In heavy situations amithlon can be up to 2x as fast. Winuae needs to do many, many more reads and writes due to lack of direct hardware access. This is only with 68k too, the fact amithlon can run x86 native amiga software is another bonus (there's an x86 native uae for amithlon out there too somewhere which is obviously somewhat faster than the 68k version). The more involved the software being run, the more Winuae can suffer in comparison.
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Thanks Fishy, lots to think about in building or buying a pre-assembled amithlon machine. I think I agree with you that 3ghz should be the bottom end. Anything less I think aga games will not be a pleasant experience.
I don't want to sink money into a machine only to have to upgrade to a faster cpu later because it won't quite run well for all amiga classic software.
Maybe its better to just go 3ghz+ from the start and avoid problems.
If you use a supported network, video and sound card with that, I think you'll have a much more pleasant experience using it.
Steven
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Each to thier own and whatnot, but for a cheap Amithlon machine you cant go wrong with a socket775 mobo using ich7/8/9 (p35/p45/g31/g33/some g41) + a cheap core2duo. Im using a e5300 in my amithlon box (clocked at 3.86ghz (up from 2.6ghz, on standard cooling)). Ive yet to see an e5xxx cpu that didnt at least clock to use a 266mhz bus (up from 200) (basically add 1/3rd clock speed as a guarantee, usually more). Mine does go higher, but beyond 3.86ghz it starts to add a few extra degrees. Great value for money, and to my knowledge the only semi recent machines that have been properly tested.
As for network cards, off the top of my head:
ne2k compatible (rtl8029 is common), rtl8139 (via openpci), and some 3com cards (I cant be more specific here sorry) are the cards Ive used. Sound wise its a little limited, but ac97 that utilises via 686a/b chipset combo, sb128, and sblive are the most common options.
Again, feel free to ask for any more info or help if you need/want it.
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Amithon seems to be quite an adventure getting a box working, unless its just that I never had all the required bits in one box. There is something to be said for aros or windows and winuae...
Steven
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Amithon seems to be quite an adventure getting a box working,
Yeah, my curiosity was piqued when I heard Amithlon and AMD 1800 in the same sentence, as I have a box of that power (or lack thereof) handy, and would consider playing...
But if it's not worth it, personally I'm not at the "spend money" stage for that project.
All my hobby money is going into my classic Amiga's currently (mostly the 1000 recently)..
(well, that and my Vectrex a bit.. Don't tell the Amigas, they get jealous.. :confused: )
desiv
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It definately can be a little more difficult than the options youve mentioned, but well worth the effort in my opinion. A little ebaying though and it's easy enough to get a fully supported system running. TnT card, gf2 card, gf4 cards (avoid gf4mx cards though for amithlon) are a dime a dozen. Matrox cards are quite easy to get ahold of too. SB Live is easy to get ahold of, as are rtl8029 or rtl8139 cards. Add $60 for a mobo and another $60 for a cpu (new) and youre laughing :)
The main "trick" I guess can be in getting it up and running. To use some of the more recent hardware you're likely to need either kernel3.1 or 4, which can be awkward sometimes if you dont have a machine that will boot from the cd. Thats something to bare in mind too I guess,.... just because a machine doesnt boot off the cd doesnt mean it wont work nicely.
If you're interested I can elaborate on some of this stuff for you. It's not actually all that complicated once youve dealt with it a few times, but I must admit can seem a little daunting when 1st going through it.
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Yeah, my curiosity was piqued when I heard Amithlon and AMD 1800 in the same sentence, as I have a box of that power (or lack thereof) handy, and would consider playing...
But if it's not worth it, personally I'm not at the "spend money" stage for that project.
All my hobby money is going into my classic Amiga's currently (mostly the 1000 recently)..
(well, that and my Vectrex a bit.. Don't tell the Amigas, they get jealous.. :confused: )
desiv
If you have a classic already and running 68k version of UAE isnt important to you then amithlon will work very nicely on that machine (assuming you have supported video/sound/nic). While Ive been talking about needing higher spec gear, etc. Im talking from a perspective of wanting everything you can throw at it to run nicely (full speed aga through 68k uae, HD video and and fpse being the main culprits for my want or something more powerful). An Athlon 1800+ will run very, very nicely for most things. If you have even half an inclination, and are able, it cant hurt to give it a go, it really is very much like a very fast rtg based 68k amiga system :)
With the system youve mentioned you'll be able to play 68k quake 1 and 2 at high framerates, descent freespace, napalm, run up to and beyond mk2/3 in mame, run sd videos nicely, mp3s, lightwave, etc. will fly and so on.
Yes, this can be done with Winuae also, but assuming you have an "amithlon friendly" system it's a more pleasant experience with Amithlon (and not just because of speed advantage).
It's a shame it was killed off in the way it was, it really is a great product.
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Ya, and there was a successor on the way too...
SAD SAD story!
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So would this work?
http://www.3dfx.ch/gallery/v/3dfx_collectors/3dfx+Collection+by+Xion/Voodoo+Banshee/Creative+3D+Blaster+Banshee+pci/
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Fishy, yes I'd really like a machine that can handle anything I can throw at it, including aga games or quake or whatever. I don't want to dump alot of time or money into a project then realize it won't handle aga games or whatever.
I think I will begin collecting components in the next few weeks. Very busy with other projects right now. Once I have a 3ghz machine, supported network, video and soundcards I will give a go at installing it. I have an installation guide somewhere.
I agree it was a fantastic idea that could have been a great way forward. Too bad the amiga grave robbers killed it.
Steven
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I used to have a amithlon install on my p2 266 with 196mb ram. I used a geforce2 video card and the system was amazingly fast on workbench and rtg. It was ideal for irc, or a bit of web browsing. Of course, trying to run e-uae for classic games was a no-no, because of limited cpu already being used in an emulation instance. I noticed that giving the lack of cpu available regarding the minimum told by the creator of the soft, it eated a lot of the ram, i suppose in order to equal the system about cpu speed. In the end, the system had 64mb of fully usable ram after amithlon booted, and that´s a lot for an Amiga.
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@XDelusion
Nah, voodoo based cards arent great choices for amithlon. The only exception I guess being if a person does the "hack" to get elbox drivers working (in which case in theory you might get 3d hardware acceleration). Personally Ive never had the software to even try(I dont have the elbox drivers), but I dont know of anyone who's had success (apart from one of the authors, who unless it's an urban myth has shown it running using 3d acceleration). There's some docs in the uae-jit (and inherritantly euae) that I suspect is somethng like the procedure needed to be followed (also works with uae on linux too, and in fact the docs target that in the description).
Anyway, that's possibly confusing the matter, just assume for now that any voodoo 1/2(including bashee)/3/4/5/6 cards only support VESA modes with Amithlon, which really cripples the experience.
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Voodoo 3 supports non-VESA modes and is quite fast, I had a P3 750 with a Voodoo 3, and I used it for classic mac emulation, it was blazingly fast and I had a nice speed on the desktop.
A good replacement on AMithlon for Warp3d is Wazp3d, a w3d comaptible software renderer. Thats whats on my second AMithlon machine right now, and all future ones I build.
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If you have a classic already and running 68k version of UAE isnt important to you then amithlon will work very nicely on that machine
Hmmm.. Good point.. ;-)
I think the current video card in there is a geforce fx something, it's been a while.. ;-) It works fine for Ubuntu, although I remember I do have to toggle 3D desktop effects OFF if I want to play Linux "native" Neverwinter acceptably. ;-)
(I told you, it's been awhile since I used that PC..)
desiv
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Could some one go into detail about what made Amithlon great?
I was thinking that it was written to work closely with the Kernel.
Are there any links that would help?
Thanks.
edit
I did find some links and some youtube videos.
I have an idea but will have to think about it before I ask it.
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I think I will get some components and try building my own amithlon box.
I've heard sblive isn't as well supported as sb128pci, so I think I'd rather have sb128pci.
Whats the best inexpensive video card and network card?
Any help would be appreciated. I have a couple of 2ghz boxes here for testing, but I think I will get a dell 3ghz hyperthreading pc that a friend of mine offered me recently for the main box. I have to check to make sure it has enough slots first, its a slimline kinda desktop case.
Steven
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The Geforce 2-4 are very good, the Radeon 9250 is also good.
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Now bidding on nvidia geforce 4 and also a soundblaster 128pci.
Now I need a network card. Does anyone know which network cards work the best with amithlon?
Steven
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Rtl8139
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I searched Aminet and got some good listings for Amithlon.
http://aminet.net/search?query=Amithlon
well, it is not as good as I first thought.
It does have a video of Bernie demonstrating Amithlon in 18 parts.
http://www.a1k.org/forum/showthread.php?t=12250&page=3
There is source code and other files at bottom of post on this page.
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I searched Aminet and got some good listings for Amithlon
Please share. :)
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Oh, and contrary to what has been advised here by dreamcast270MHZ,. Do *NOT* buy a radeon9250 for use with amithlon. Much like a voodoo3, it'll work, but it doesnt have full support (better than voodoo3 at least).
http://web.onetel.net.uk/~garycvl/amithlon/hardware.htm
There's a couple of omissions, but that's basically the supported hardware. Core Logic chipsets are the main omission there.
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Damn, I was really banking on that VooDoo working. Looks like my nVidia GeForce 4 MX is unconfirmed as well. Damn, a man can't win. :)
Thankx for the list, looks like I'm going to have to do a little shoppping.
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That list is definitely outdated. Refresh rate support was on my old voodoo PC, I needed to use P96 and manually link the 3dfx driver to the PowerFB driver. Software 3d (wazp) is necessary with any good system (1.5GHz and above in my experience) and it really makes a difference, you get wayy more speed in 3D games (Quake was one I managed to run at a reasonable speed.)
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Err,... no offense bloke, but youre talking nonsense. Wazp3d is simply a software implementation of warp3d. In no way, shape or form does it add speed, but rather simply give the user a software rendering option, and its quite slow (albiet the only option for warp3d on amithlon). Thankfully there's very little software that uses it as software (non w3d) renderers are available. Wazp3d will be a multitude of times slower than a normal software renderer. Quake1 for example drops from about 180FPS @640x480 using normal software renderer to about 40 using wazp3d. It does look a little nicer though.
As for the list of hardware, its up to and including kernel310, which has only just recently been superceeded and the new kernel offers next to no additional hardware support anyway and definately not graphics hardware.
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I think I'm going to stick with winuae installed on a stripped down winxp installed with windows shell removed, but upgrade to a better box.
My current system is ghz, and plays all but the very demanding aga games just fine in winuae. It runs all other software fine too. Seems like this is a nice idea but an awful lot of aggravation to get going.
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I think I'm going to stick with winuae installed on a stripped down winxp installed with windows shell removed, but upgrade to a better box.
My current system is ghz, and plays all but the very demanding aga games just fine in winuae. It runs all other software fine too. Seems like this is a nice idea but an awful lot of aggravation to get going.
I have WinUae installed on MicroXP, running on a 3Ghz multicore CPU.
Having also ran this a few years back, I can still say, without a doubt, that you do not realize what you are missing out on here. Sincerely!
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How well does games run in RTG on UAE?
Could RTG get more performance?
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I think I'm going to stick with winuae installed on a stripped down winxp installed with windows shell removed, but upgrade to a better box.
My current system is ghz, and plays all but the very demanding aga games just fine in winuae. It runs all other software fine too. Seems like this is a nice idea but an awful lot of aggravation to get going.
I'd have to agree with Steven here.
Looks like a promising OS, but the limited hardware support would be too frustrating.
I have a VooDoo3 and an old Geforce2, but I wouldn't resort to using them unless there was a really good argument for it.
WinUAE>Amithlon
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Each to thier own and whatnot, but limited hardware support is just something amiga users have to deal with. Its not like amithlon has less hardware support than either mos or os4.x (in fact amithlons support is probaby better than either of those 2).
Winuae is easier to get going, but amithlon is far superior and a heck of a lot more authentic (both in feeling and how it behaves).
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Each to thier own and whatnot, but limited hardware support is just something amiga users have to deal with. Its not like amithlon has less hardware support than either mos or os4.x (in fact amithlons support is probaby better than either of those 2).
Winuae is easier to get going, but amithlon is far superior and a heck of a lot more authentic (both in feeling and how it behaves).
Amen-Ra!
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Amen-Ra!
Does anyone have a link to a list of supported hardware?
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Post # 34 by Fish.
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Post # 34 by Fish.
Thanks X (and, of course, Fishy).
I don't think I've retained anything that old (just checked and I think I sold the GeForce2MX).
Makes me wish I'd kept the Athlon XP-M 3000+ I used to have (it would do 2.2 - 2.4 Ghz easy). That would have made a good match for the KT400.