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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: iamaboringperson on December 27, 2003, 12:53:26 AM

Title: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: iamaboringperson on December 27, 2003, 12:53:26 AM
Why?

I want Gorky 17, not for Linux, not for AmigaOS 4, but for MorphOS.  I am curious as to why I can't have it running on my MorphOS machine?

I want that game!

I love RPG and strategy type games!

(This is not a troll. I am not trying to troll, or start a flame war here, I am posting only because I am curious as to why this wont be on my favorite platform)
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: itix on December 27, 2003, 01:09:13 AM
Probably because Hyperion is willing to push their own baby, OS4? :)

Like selling games in this community is profitable anyway.
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: Jose on December 27, 2003, 01:22:35 AM
"... am curious as to why I can't have it running on my MorphOS machine?"

Who said you can't ?! All that need to happend is  someone geting a license to port it for MOS and do the port. What's the problem with that?
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: lempkee on December 27, 2003, 01:33:48 AM
thats not hard, all you need is MONEY and people to port it .
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: JoannaK on December 27, 2003, 01:37:39 AM
Lempkee: agree..  Hyperion don't own any monopoly there..  Not to that game nor to any other game that matters.

Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: HopperJF on December 27, 2003, 02:45:22 AM
yeah asking hyperion to port gorky 17 is like asking apple to port macos to x86. wont happen cause they will lose hardware sales or in hyperions case OS4 sales and amigas case Amigaone sales.

hyperion = no.
anyone who has money and wants to = yes
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: mongo on December 27, 2003, 04:30:40 AM
Quote
yeah asking hyperion to port gorky 17 is like asking apple to port macos to x86. wont happen cause they will lose hardware sales or in hyperions case OS4 sales and amigas case Amigaone sales.


No one is making the choice between OS4 and MOS based on the availability of Gorky 17.
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: frankb on December 27, 2003, 07:09:28 AM
Quote

iamaboringperson wrote:
Why?

I want Gorky 17, not for Linux, not for AmigaOS 4, but for MorphOS.  I am curious as to why I can't have it running on my MorphOS machine?

I want that game!

I love RPG and strategy type games!

Hyperion only have a license to port the game to AmigaOS 4 and Linux. They would have to get a license to port it to MorphOS, and I don't think thats going to happen any time soon.
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: Ross_Geller on December 27, 2003, 09:32:59 AM
@Mongo

Gorky17 may not be the sole reason for a person choosing  OS4 over MOS, but it could be a contributing factor.  After all, software availability is important for a platform to become viable, and even more so in such a small market with a direct competitor.

Also, certainly by the sounds of this thread, if Gorky 17 isn't ported then Hyperion and Eyetech may be making a few more sales than if Gorky 17 was ported to all platforms.
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: JoannaK on December 27, 2003, 11:48:16 AM
Ross: My wish for this all is that If people only would bother to read Reviews of the game before hypeing so much.. Gorky 17 is four years old game that was never any hit, not excellent, nor even real good... Just average among thousands others..  

I do understand that on minimall selection (games to OS4) it may well be among top 3 ... but it ain't making it great game instantly. I really would like to see those people analyzed who are honestly claiming that they are going to purchase a new 1000Euros machine to run a  port of 5-year old and average quality PC-game.   :-o

What I'd rather see is Divine Divinity port from Epic.. It is much better RPG in it and it was woted among best RPG.s on year ago.  Sure.. it's not among *THE* big hits either, but on it's case it has more to do with lack of marketting than weakness of game itself.
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: Hooligan_DCS on December 27, 2003, 04:23:26 PM
Agreed to a certain point. At the moment ANY game isn't worth releasing for classic Amiga, NG Amiga, nor Pegasos. IMHO to have any new game running on any of the mentioned platforms is more show of good faith than making real business.

Frankly I don't understand the meaning of this thread at all. If it makes sense, it will be ported to MOS. But that is somewhere in the future. And if not, it's not.. hardly end of life as we know it.
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: Ross_Geller on December 27, 2003, 06:42:41 PM
@JoannaK

Don't worry, I wasn't actually hyping the game (although I'm not certain how you came to that conclusion).
I was trying to point out that in such a small market anything can sway a perceivable percentage of the community, so that Gorky 17 could actually help affect A1 sales, thus trying to show that Mongo's view was flawed.  I have no interest in Gorky 17 in any way, it's purely one more software title that could help sway a person towards the A1/OS4 rather than Pegasos/MOS.

I will admit that I was careless with my final sentence, I don't know how I got it into my head that there was more than one person in the thread who seemed very eager to lay their hands on a copy of the game for an amiga.
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: mongo on December 27, 2003, 07:58:02 PM
Quote
Gorky17 may not be the sole reason for a person choosing OS4 over MOS, but it could be a contributing factor.


No.

Quote
Also, certainly by the sounds of this thread, if Gorky 17 isn't ported then Hyperion and Eyetech may be making a few more sales than if Gorky 17 was ported to all platforms.


No, it sounds like Hyperion will be making less sales of Gorky 17.
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: JoannaK on December 27, 2003, 08:44:31 PM
Ross: It was not targetted to you (alone).... I'm just amazed how many people around Amiga are so detached from reality. Be it dicsussion about games, having Opera browser, or remaking old hardware for Retro.use.

Like this idea of yours of someone actually purchasing Amigaone for playing this Game.. With price of Aone one can have game console (any 3 major brand one likes) and at least fifteen brand new Hit games.  And considering that plenty games favorably comparable (age/quality) to this Gorky are available as discount (or re-releases) with pricetags around 20 Euros.  

For example .. I got PS2 game Zone of the Enders unused/unopened 10 Euros from local supermarket. It's not among top-10 PS2 games but has nice playability and good 3D Gfx for a game released couple years ago (2001).

I can't say about others, but to me: Game must be decent to justify purchase at all.. and real good before I bother to spend 40 or 50 Euros to it.   And no... havign it to some exotic name-platform ain't that important.
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: Ross_Geller on December 28, 2003, 10:41:49 AM
JoannaK:
Quote
Like this idea of yours of someone actually purchasing Amigaone for playing this Game


You make it sound as if I was saying they would buy an AmigaOne solely for this game.  My idea is that this game may be what tips the scale between buying an AmigaOne, a Pegasos or something else entirely.  Please note that I'm not saying that the scales are balanced before we add Gorky 17, merely that it's the little extra nudge the consumer may need to consider the AmigaOne the option for them.  I would use an analogy, but that could get dangerous!

Most of us simply don't have the option of buying a new platform for just one game (no matter how great the game is), so I would never advocate such a thing.  However, a platform that offers a good OS, good apps and some good games is much easier to consider purchasing because its utility will be far greater.

Quote
And no... havign it to some exotic name-platform ain't that important.

It would be important to those already owning an exoticly named platform and can't afford the money or space for a console.  They're the troublemakers here ;-)

(I hope this time my views are clearer, it's always impossible to tell until someone else reads it :-) )
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: Ross_Geller on December 28, 2003, 11:31:50 AM
Quote

Quote
Gorky17 may not be the sole reason for a person choosing OS4 over MOS, but it could be a contributing factor.


No.


So you're saying it's impossible for Gorky 17 to have any effect whatsoever on a person's choice of platform?  That's a shame for Gorky 17 if you're right, that in a market with so few games it still has absolutely no pulling power.

Quote

Quote
Also, certainly by the sounds of this thread, if Gorky 17 isn't ported then Hyperion and Eyetech may be making a few more sales than if Gorky 17 was ported to all platforms.


No, it sounds like Hyperion will be making less sales of Gorky 17.


I can't see your assertion in the thread.  Hyperion may have lost one sale, but then again they may have gained an A1/OS4 buyer, it is impossible for us to judge iamaboringperson's want of this game.

And Hyperion will be making less sales than what?  Than if they ported to MOS as well?  That's true.  But your sentence states that Hyperion will make less sales, it never asserts any difference between the way the situation is now and any hypothetical situations.  So we have to assume that you're applying "less sales" to the current situation.  

But for the current situation there is no given reason that Hyperion are going to have less sales when the only people buying the game will be OS4 and Mac users, and I cannot see either of those groups of consumers boycotting Gorky 17 purely because it's not also available for MOS.  (This would be the point where somebody then starts up a thread boycotting Gorky 17 :-P)

(I'm sorry if I'm going over the top, I think I've jumped rather too hard at the chance to have such a discussion.)
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: mongo on December 28, 2003, 04:51:47 PM
Quote
So you're saying it's impossible for Gorky 17 to have any effect whatsoever on a person's choice of platform? That's a shame for Gorky 17 if you're right, that in a market with so few games it still has absolutely no pulling power.


For the price difference between a P2 and an A1, you can buy a PC and a copy of Gorky 17.

Quote
I can't see your assertion in the thread. Hyperion may have lost one sale, but then again they may have gained an A1/OS4 buyer, it is impossible for us to judge iamaboringperson's want of this game.


Unless iamaboringperson is insane, or has way too much money, he is not going to spend several hundred dollars just so he can play a port of Gorky 17.

Quote
And Hyperion will be making less sales than what? Than if they ported to MOS as well? That's true. But your sentence states that Hyperion will make less sales, it never asserts any difference between the way the situation is now and any hypothetical situations. So we have to assume that you're applying "less sales" to the current situation.


Why don't you take the context of my sentence into consideration? If you do, then it should be clear that I am saying that Hyperion will make less sales if they only port it to OS4 and not MOS as well.
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: JoannaK on December 28, 2003, 09:11:45 PM
Ross: Not affording a console ... well.. it all depends on what each and everyone consideres important.

Anyhow.. How meaningless this discussion is, apparently some individuals willing to prefer anonymosity have decided to move it to ann.lu.
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: Hammer on December 29, 2003, 12:48:00 AM
Quote

mongo wrote:

Why don't you take the context of my sentence into consideration? If you do, then it should be clear that I am saying that Hyperion will make less sales if they only port it to OS4 and not MOS as well.

It’s not all about making “sales” i.e. making Gorky 17 only available for AOS4 (not for MOS) makes AOS4 a bit “inelastic” (in economic terms).
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: HotRod on December 29, 2003, 01:08:33 AM
Why is it that as soon as something happens that is related to AOS 4 a MOS-user or several just have to coment and/or complain?!

There are a few MOS-only games released but I haven't read any complains about that.

It is two systems and some will develope for one of them only. Accept it! If it is a MUI-program it will probably run on both systems but what if a program uses ReAction? Or what about the newer versions of Warp3D (Nova)? Maybe MOS won't be compatible with it and therefore some programs won't run on it.
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: Tomas on December 29, 2003, 01:35:01 AM
Quote
Why is it that as soon as something happens that is related to AOS 4 a MOS-user or several just have to coment and/or complain?!

There are a few MOS-only games released but I haven't read any complains about that.

this is exactly the same as i have noticed...
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: iamaboringperson on December 29, 2003, 02:10:02 AM
Quote
It is two systems and some will develope for one of them only. Accept it! If it is a MUI-program it will probably run on both systems but what if a program uses ReAction? Or what about the newer versions of Warp3D (Nova)? Maybe MOS won't be compatible with it and therefore some programs won't run on it.
It's actually quite easy to write a game once, and compile it for two platforms.

What you've written are only excuses.

Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: lempkee on December 29, 2003, 02:16:47 AM
imaboringperson: u are so wrong on that one, A LISCENSE COST MONEY! and when morphos and pegasos came around amiga suddenly had to get 2 liscenses for each game/tool..

in other words , if u buy liscense to port a game, and with 2 options on the market atm, well you need to buy 2 diff for 2 diff os's ..

btw why not slam EPIC because of this? , you are aware of that EPIC released the mac version? but not the MORPHOS version?? , hyperion does the LINUX and OS4 version...

Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: iamaboringperson on December 29, 2003, 02:29:13 AM
Quote
u are so wrong on that one, A LISCENSE COST MONEY! and when morphos and pegasos came around amiga suddenly had to get 2 liscenses for each game/tool..

It's hard to say! We don't know what's in the contract yet!
:-)

What I mean by that is how dissimillar do the two platforms have to be before it actually does require a second licence.

There is also the issue of the extra possible sales making up for the cost of the liscence!
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: Steady on December 29, 2003, 10:46:13 AM
@iamaboringperson:

The fact is that they ARE two different platforms. AmigaOS 4 is AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS is MorphOS. They both have different APIs and require two different versions. If they did not, you would not now be complaining about not having a MorphOS version of Gorky 17.
The common API between them is AmigaOS 3.1. Otherwise they are different and will become more so as time goes on (unless a specific effort is made otherwise).
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: lempkee on December 29, 2003, 11:37:00 AM
iamaboringperson: ok i will either stop here now or continue with some manners, please fill in the gaps here.


1. It seems you are flaming hyperion and claiming that it might be a free liscense.

2. You keep ignoring the fact that EPIC allready liscensed the mac version and hyperion liscensed the linux + os4

3. somewhat i dont think you fully understand what happened when there was a new api introduced.


addidtionally i would liek to mention ,

1. i dont know what the liscense cost ,but i am in the software dev biz and i know they dont come free + i know aos and morphos is 2 api's (dont know if porting 1 version to WOS only would make it as on liscense) as morphos is wos compatible) but its rather unlikely that we will see more WOS stuff comming for os4..,

2. have you talked to epic about this grudge?, maybe they have a plan to liscense a morphos version? or maybe not as they are busy with games as "divine divinity and northland" atm..

3. as i said about making extra money with releasing it for morphos aswell, did it ever occur to you that if they had to release 2x liscenses then they would have to sell twice as many or something simmilar to make money at all?

4. we are going in loops here, if you had read the damn posts from hyperion about this earlier on then we wouldnt have been stagnated just over this single question AGAIN!..
Last hope for gorky17 is that epic release an morphos version..

 
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: Hooligan_DCS on December 29, 2003, 12:09:49 PM
Quote
Last hope for gorky17 is that epic release an morphos version..


Or pick it up at local stores for 10€  :-P
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: KennyR on December 29, 2003, 12:31:58 PM
Hyperion would rather slowly tear out their own fingernails than support a platform they've been flaming and that has been flaming them for almost four years.

That, I think, is the bottom line.
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: iamaboringperson on December 29, 2003, 01:08:01 PM
Quote

Steady wrote:
@iamaboringperson:

The fact is that they ARE two different platforms. AmigaOS 4 is AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS is MorphOS. They both have different APIs and require two different versions. If they did not, you would not now be complaining about not having a MorphOS version of Gorky 17.
The common API between them is AmigaOS 3.1. Otherwise they are different and will become more so as time goes on (unless a specific effort is made otherwise).

Yes they are different. There is probably greater difference than the what is found in the varying distributions of Linux.

I suppose that what I'm trying to get at here is that good businessmen are supposed to be good at weaseling their way around contracts ;-) they're supposed to at least try to bend the agreement in their favor! ;-) ;-) *nudge* *nudge*

Ah forget it... I'm losing my argument here... :)
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: iamaboringperson on December 29, 2003, 01:17:27 PM
Quote
1. It seems you are flaming hyperion and claiming that it might be a free liscense.
No.
Quote
2. You keep ignoring the fact that EPIC allready liscensed the mac version and hyperion liscensed the linux + os4
Read my last post. ;-)
Quote
3. somewhat i dont think you fully understand what happened when there was a new api introduced.
It depends on the API. The specifics of the implementations might be different, however both OS's are very similar.
It could be argued(heck, I'd try it for a bit of extra cash! ;) that they are as simillar as BSD and Linux. If a developer has the licence to port their software to Linux, couldn't it be argued that they could port it to x86 BSD under the same licence? It's just a thought. :)
Quote
1. i dont know what the liscense cost ,but i am in the software dev biz and i know they dont come free + i know aos and morphos is 2 api's (dont know if porting 1 version to WOS only would make it as on liscense) as morphos is wos compatible) but its rather unlikely that we will see more WOS stuff comming for os4..,
I think it will be interesting to see the differences in software options on both platforms in the future. But only time will tell. :)
Quote
2. have you talked to epic about this grudge?, maybe they have a plan to liscense a morphos version? or maybe not as they are busy with games as "divine divinity and northland" atm..
If I didn't have other projects that I'm working on (and that I should be getting on with right now, if you know what I mean ;) I'd consider taking it up myself.
Quote
3. as i said about making extra money with releasing it for morphos aswell, did it ever occur to you that if they had to release 2x liscenses then they would have to sell twice as many or something simmilar to make money at all?
Yes! Two machines, roughly twice the sales! (okay,  that's just a theory)
Quote
4. we are going in loops here, if you had read the damn posts from hyperion about this earlier on then we wouldnt have been stagnated just over this single question AGAIN!..
Last hope for gorky17 is that epic release an morphos version..
I posted here due to the fact that peoples posts were being removed under the news item. That included my post, which, IMHO was on topic.
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: iamaboringperson on December 29, 2003, 01:23:40 PM
Oh BTW, I'm not overly passionate about this issue, and certainly don't intend to flame anybody over this game.
It is their decision, I couldn't imagine Genesi porting one of their special programs to AmigaOS4 anytime soon! ;-)

I think I'll respect their choice.

(I was only asking 'why', not asking for a fight)

:-)
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: csirac_ on December 29, 2003, 01:51:18 PM
Quote

KennyR wrote:
Hyperion would rather slowly tear out their own fingernails than support a platform they've been flaming and that has been flaming them for almost four years.

That, I think, is the bottom line.


Riiight... and the fact that as exhaustivly discussed already, hope for breaking even in sales after the expense/logistical issues in porting/supporting/licensing/publishing for just ONE of the platforms is quite slim, has nothing to do with it?

I agree with you about the fingernails part - but I don't know why it's relevant. I don't know how this thread got to 30 comments, it's a complete non-issue! (probably people like me posting, eh?)

- Paul
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: Ross_Geller on December 29, 2003, 02:08:49 PM
@JoannaK

Yea, you're right, it is all meaningless :-)  good practice for me though, I've never really been in a position where I could have a discussion/argument ("argument" in a good natured sense that is)... I guess it's pretty obvious I'm not too good at it hehe

And some people have moved it to ann.lu?  That's a shame, it destroys any hope of a linear discussion.  And no, it's definitely not me on ann.lu! :-D I'll stand by my views, no matter how flawed they might turn out to be (in which case I'll try to be a good man and admit I was wrong :-) )

I think I'll go see if I can find that thread over at ann.lu, just to see what's been said.  I'm certainly not going to wade into any discussion over there, I found this stressful enough.
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: KennyR on December 29, 2003, 02:20:26 PM
Quote
Riiight... and the fact that as exhaustivly discussed already, hope for breaking even in sales after the expense/logistical issues in porting/supporting/licensing/publishing for just ONE of the platforms is quite slim, has nothing to do with it?


With MacOS, Linux and AmigaOS all covered by the same license, I doubt it.
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: csirac_ on December 29, 2003, 02:42:13 PM
Quote

With MacOS, Linux and AmigaOS all covered by the same license, I doubt it.




But SURELY you must see that it is not as trivial as Hyperion saying " Linux, AmigaOS4, and Mac.... and MorphOS" in the licensing agreement?!

You seem to think tacking MorphOS on the end there would cost nothing; furthermore, that licensing would be the end of it.

Even if rights to the MorphOS platform were chucked in for free, there is still the effort required in porting to MorphOS. Coding, QA, testing - Does Hyperion even have a Pegasos? A MOS dev kit? What about access to MOS developers to do the port?

Mac and Linux developers are far easier to come by -and hey, they may even make money from these platforms. AmigaOS4? Who knows. But for MorphOS? What's in it for them?

I would think there are non-trivial negotations, logistics and expense involved in Hyperion porting to a competitor's OS, especially during a time when they are on the verge of releasing a new Operating System themselves. I'd say resources are already quite stretched as it is, and with POLITICS and LICENSING aside, it is not LOGICAL and perhaps not POSSIBLE for Hyperion to be responsible for a MOS port.

This argument sounds like a Linux user complaining that Microsoft has released Office for Win32 but not Linux...

- Paul
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: lempkee on December 29, 2003, 06:29:43 PM
iamaboringperson: thank you for your understanding, and i hope my long post finally got read and understood but as i said earlier and i will always say it, software wars is not what AMIGA needs now, and this is not the first and not the last (for sure) ...

things are bound to go this way but i hope that eventually the os's will merge their software support but then again ...people will then choose whats cheapest and not nessesarly the real option they wanted.....BUT HEY!.... atleast we will get choices...

many sides of such...sorry for the rambling...

Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: reflect on December 29, 2003, 09:30:08 PM
This is taken from the FAQ at Hyperion's homepage.

Quote

 Will Hyperion support alternative operating systems like MorphOS and AROS which target the Amiga user-base?

    The answer is simple: no. Leaving aside considerations such as IP and copyright infringement and further market fragmentation which would lead to sharply reduced sales in the Amiga market and the fact that we would need to rebuild our code-base, we want to make it clear our licenses are tied to a specific operating system, not to a specific hardware platform. If it were otherwise, we would just obtain a license for PPC and we could port for any OS running on PPC including MacOS, AmigaOS, Linux PPC, Beos etc. In reality our license agreements limit the scope of our rights to AmigaOS meaning ports for AROS and MorphOS are LEGALLY IMPOSSIBLE and would require prior re-negotiation of our license agreements. We would think it highly doubtful that large entertainment software companies would even consider this without very substantial upfront royalty payments which would be impossible to recuperate due to low sales.
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: Paul_Gadd on December 29, 2003, 11:40:10 PM
i wonder if you guys have played Gorky 17 or just doing the usual port begging for no reason at all, Gorky 17 is imo a rubbish game and the only people i see buying it are the Amigans what will give money to that charity Hyperion.

If you really must buy this game then get the PC version for £2.50 instead of paying stupid amounts of money for a port.
Title: Re: "Gorky 17" for MOS
Post by: reflect on December 30, 2003, 12:27:55 AM
@Paul_Gadd :
I'm going by the looks of it and also a few reviews which gave it fairly good score.  If you want to see titles for the Amiga, you buy the game which you like, even if it is a port and you're paying for the Amiga port. If everyone reasoned like you, there would come zero new games, since everyone would just give up and buy a PC for just about everything..  (hey, why pay for anything when you can use software on another platform?)..

From your reasoning, it almost sounds like "hey, I didn't like the game, and asking for a port or buying the game means you're cheerleaders.".

I find your post very condescending and it offends me.