Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: RepoOne on May 24, 2011, 10:42:01 PM
-
I'm relatively new to the Amiga world, but from what I've heard so far, things used to be quite different in the hobby of computing.
Rather than purchasing from poorly-trained people who know nothing about technology doing sales at a big-box store, one went to local computer stores where one could talk for hours to people who knew what they were doing and could answer nearly any question one would have.
Rather than there only being one primary architecture (x86), there were a variety of different computing standards and architectures. Commodore, Radio Shack, Kaypro, Apple, IBM, and TI all had their own computer systems.
The hobby also seems to have been more alive than it is today. While computers are more ubiquitous now than ever, it seems that the computing world in the early-90s had a higher proportion (or even number, for that matter) of hobbyists. Any given town would have multiple BBSes, and computing magazines and DIY-modifications (which people could purchase parts for from Radio Shack, which is now essentially a glorified cell-phone store) were popular.
It even appears that programming used to be something much more common than it is today, as computer books written in the 80s and 90s focus a lot more on programming than do today's.
Simply flipping through an old Amiga magazine shows all of this, with programming articles and all sorts of hardware for sale, many of which required soldering and electronics knowledge to install. Today's computing magazines mostly have articles about how to use Windows features. If one opens a gaming magazine (not many are PC-focused anymore), there's nothing about programming.
It just seems that the "magic" of computing has disappeared. Being born at the tail end of this, I was only able to witness a small amount of it, but it was still there; I remember my first computer being bought out of a computer store that was basically in a garage.
So, what happened to the hobby of computing? When did all of the small computer stores close down, the alternative systems (such as the Amiga) die out, and the magazines stop printing? I mean, we're still here, but why aren't there more of us? What happened to make people no longer become interested in computers, but simply treat them as another appliance?
Or, has it always been this way, and some people on these forums happen to view the past through rose-colored glasses?
(Sorry if this isn't directly Amiga-related, but it does relate to the hobby of retrocomputing and to the values that the Amiga community appears to hold as a whole.)
-
> Rather than purchasing from poorly-trained people who know nothing about
> technology doing sales at a big-box store, one went to local computer stores
> where one could talk for hours to people who knew what they were doing and
> could answer nearly any question one would have.
I'm not sure what world that was, but it wasn't the one I lived in.
Local small computer stores seemed (in general) to be snobbish and over priced,
compared to chain shops which also sold Amigas. One could get answers from local user groups, dialup bulletin board users, and usenet before the small shop would speak to you unless you were paying not just list price for everything but also for their "private computer classes".....
-
I think it happened because computers got more internally complex as their UIs got simpler, and thus the people who wouldn't immediately gravitate towards hacking had far less incentive to try it and see if they liked it. You pretty much had to know at least some BASIC to do things on an '80s home computer - today you can generally operate a computer without even being able to read. It's a sad but probably inevitable consequence of the drive to bring computers to mass use in the '80s and '90s.
Fortunately, some of us still care, and while it's sad that we don't have so many people to share our experiences and passions with as we used to, the machines are still here and, for the most part, still working :)
Nothing is truly dead if even one person still cherishes it.
-
"Rather than purchasing from poorly-trained people who know nothing about technology doing sales at a big-box store, one went to local computer stores where one could talk for hours to people who knew what they were doing and could answer nearly any question one would have."
Most of the early store owners were enthusiasts (read: Geeks) so they usually knew the answers. Downside was they could BORE you for hours, too ... (If you could tolerate the bad breath & B.O.) ;)
"It even appears that programming used to be something much more common than it is today"
Partly because most (all ?) of the early machines had BASIC built in, so programming was a natural function. Also there were fewer ready written apps, so if you needed something, you could write it yourself. That's what 'computing' meant in those days. Nowadays there are multiple apps to do almost anything you care to name. Why reinvent the wheel ?
"So, what happened to the hobby of computing? When did all of the small computer stores close down"
They closed when they couldn't make enough cash. Often because the owners spent hours talking to customers rather than selling them something. ;)
-
Being in right from the start of what can truly be called the beginning of the "home computer experience" there's nothing "Rose Tinted" about it... :)
Way back at the end of 1980/ start of 81 when I purchased my very first VIC 20 things were indeed very different back then and I would say "magical" too... :)
It was a time when the vast majority of people (except geeks in university labs) had never seen or heard of devices such as the ZX80/81 or the VIC 20 the only thing we had up till then were the old black and white table tennis style consoles with one game on them... :)
There were indeed many friendly stores that popped up on every high street or down some shady allies were one could go and buy these amazing new fangled devices or even just spend hours chatting with the stores staff or all the other folks who crowded in these magical wonderlands... :)
Even all the big well known stores on the high streets had whole floors given over to all us spotty faced nerks who jam packed them every Saturday to chat and buy or just look at that weeks latest offerings which were plentiful and more than you could afford to buy each week as there were so many new releases of games & software... :)
It was a far cry from todays stores and their shift them fast and cheap way of doing things and generally staffed by people who can't work a till let alone tell you how to do anything with a computer other than how to switch it on... :(
It was like you say, lots of different systems to choose from each having their own followers & fans, magazines were plentiful and varied and encouraged folk to actually learn about the machines and program them... :)
It's something I'm glad I was a part of and sadly I doubt will ever see the likes of again. I could go on to explain why I think it's no longer this way but it's best not too as it would no doubt lead to the usual all out war... :)
Lets just say I'm happy I was a part of it and it has given me 30 years of pleasure and enjoyment and made me some lifelong friends along the way and if I had the chance to do it all over again I'd do so in heartbeat without changing a thing... :)
-
You could have said the same thing about electricity or cars. Computers are now everywhere, much like cars. Popularity is a b***h!
-
Hi,
@RepoOne,
What happened to our hobby?
The first thing that happened was a Polish person who was busy flying a glider ignored IBM when they were looking for an operating system to put on their computer, this threw out CPM as the main operating system, and gave a person named Bill (and not Bill from Amiga Inc. he couldn't mess up our hobby as much as this Bill) who was studying computer tech in college a chance to sell his OS (back then known as DOS). Then Bill got married, and his DOS was really excelling in the IBM world, but he wanted more, so one night after having an explicit roll in the hay with his wife, he was sitting on the edge of the bed and said "honey I am thinking of starting my own computer operating system company, what should I name it" and his wife still dazed (and not satisfied with the roll in the hay) said how about Micro Soft and then she said Bill you know you have to be hard to get down to real business.
From that day on Bill took his wifes advise, he looked at all the companies trying to compete with him, the first one a hot computer company who had huge sales with a little thing called a C64. He really couldn't think of how to stop the C64 since it had so little to offer. Then Commodore came out with the Amiga, now this computer was hot, it did a lot of things and was mouse controlled with a GUI interface, it did multi tasking in windows, and could play music and showed great graphics. Then he found out that Commodore was looking for someone to make a Basic Programming Language for the mighty Amiga, what a way to get a better look at this machine. So he bid the lowest bid and got a development machine to make this software. He took this machine and put it on a shelf in his office, so that he could examine it and develop a new operating system. During this time his followers complained about the Amiga having a mouse, where he told them who needs a mouse, all it does is slow you down as you take your hands off the keyboard to use it, and his followers obeyed and quit complaining. Then the complained about the stereo sound, where he told them "why should a computer have sound, it is for doing business, if you want music turn on a stereo or a radio" and his followers obeyed. Then they complained about the graphics where he replied "Look you can't crunch numbers and make money with graphics" All this time he was looking and examining the little Amiga, he kept on programming his Windows OS until it was good enough to bring out. People said where is the Basic that the DOS machines had, and he replied you won't need Basic to program with, since your programs will be made for you, and the people followed, then the people said hey how about games, where he said I have just bought out most of the gaming companies, so that they will only support my OS and my designated machines, I am the power and to show you how powerful I am I have just quit supporting IBM and have brought out Windows 3.1. What more can you ask for. The following years he came out with windows 95, windows NT, etc. He took control over computer retailers, by telling them you will make big money if you support my OS and add it to your computer sales. If you don't just try to find another OS to support your computers. They tried, but alas, Linux was just to Geeky, Apples OS X was OK, but the operators had no control, it was do as Steve Jobs said or hit the road, "his philosophy was give them enough power to do their work but not enough power to F##kup the system". and Still the little Amiga sat on his shelf, Bill had just about examined and duplicated, and in a lot of instances made better what the little computer had, now the Amiga no longer sits on his shelf, it is in the never lands of the city dump, unable to keep up with the power of the monopoly that is now forever expanding. And the people are still following and shaking there heads yes. When will it stop, maybe when micro soft has the power to say you can't have that on your computer, and then they can switch it off until you comply with their wishes, have illegal games, songs, videos, no problem when micro soft catches you they can turn it off.
This is what is happening to our hobby, BELIEVE IT OR NOT!!!
smerf
-
@RepoOne
You sure do have that right. I became engrossed in 1981 at age 11. What happened is that computers became more and more targeted toward the masses -- dumbed down and "black-boxed" so that they would sell to everyone. Stop depressing me.
-
To the original poster,
Lots of people see the past through "Rose" colored glasses (or some other color of glasses which distorts their vision and memory).
Although I don't agree with Smerf's long fantasy tale, I do agree that Microsoft did, and continues to do great damage to the world of computing and that unknown numbers of innovative computer projects were killed, or never even got started, because of Microsoft's stifling business practices (criminal practices that should have been punished in a court of law). Who knows what our world would be like today if there had never been a Microsoft, or even if just fair competition had been enforced and no one company had ever been allowed to dominate the computer industry the way Microsoft has done.
I think everything would be better without Microsoft, but we will never know.
The past might not have been great, but having many choices was definitely better, and having unobstructed development, without intimidation and buy-outs just to eliminate competition, is always better.
-
I agree that the computers got too complicated for casual programming and the ubiquity of software and the internet give plenty of other options.
I was always extremely interested in programming, but several of my friends picked up decent programming skills just for something to do.
Remember that BASIC was the OS for all intents and purposes. Anything you could make it do was special. Printing something in a loop and seeing it scroll up the screen, changing the screen color, whatever. Today you'd have to make one hell of a demo to feel like you accomplished anything.
-
I think these days, our computers are used to support our other hobbies.... For example, back in the early days, I thought it was the most amazing thing in the world to be able to play maybe 30 seconds of Glenn Miller on my Atari 800, in not very great quality. But that fact that it worked at all was the deal. But now, I've got hundreds of CD's and thousands of old radio shows plus movies strored on my terrabyte HD. The computer is now a means to and end, not the end inself.
The stuff now that most resembles the old days are the Replay, natami, and things like that in other markets...
You can probably draw parallels to many new technologies... Radio for instance. When it was new, it was hot stuff, even in areas not related to it... Like "Radio Flyer" wagons, RKO "radio pictures" and such.
-
I disagree with Franko on one point. The start of the personal computer was not a pre-made device you un-boxed and plugged in.
It was machines like SWTPC and Altair.
You built it. Often it took years to get a decent OS.
I wish I still had a 6809 SWTPC running OS9 (they're worth a fair amount of change).
One of the first personal computers. Eventually supporting both multitasking and multi-user.
-
...bby as much as this Bill) who was studying computer tech in college a chance to sell his OS (back then known as DO...
Congrats on using your enter key once in that mess, but it wasn't enough to make it readable.
-
I worked at one of those lil' shops that sold Amigas and it was a fun, relaxed place to be! We had connections with the local Users Group and would host some of their meetings. We had cook outs on the nice days, Tourneys on the bad ones. It was just fun!
Heh, I remember losing a few games of mine to another member. I let him borrow them and he moved or something. It was no big deal because we were all friends in one shape or form. That’s how things rolled back then…
I sometimes I think it is those memories above all else that keeps me nailed to the Amiga.
It was also sad when the store changed owners and the new guy was only in it for the money. That is when things went downhill and it was run more like a "big-box store" as someone else called it.
"You cannot expect the soul of a thing to remain when you are constantly strangling every cent out of the body" – J. Golden
-
While I did prefer the early80 through mid 90's in some ways I dont thinks things are as drastically different as people recall. The main differences now are that there are big businesses offering general computing devices (including "pcs") that arent soley aimed at enthusiasts. There's plenty of interesting computer stuff out there if a person is interested to look a little (much like we had to in the "old days"). Additionally hardware has gotten so cheap and powerful that there's few occasions, or indeed opportunites to come up with something that stands out, which makes "alternative" hardware often redundant.... why create hardware that's more expensive, soley to do stuff that can be done on existing, cheaper hardware, and better?
Evolution I believe plays a big part in why things can appear stale. Having said this though I think interesting things can still be done with existing/"generic" hardware. The last decade or so evolved things, now is probably a good time for someone to present things a little differently and/or think outside the box.
Even outside of that though there's plenty of good hobby computing around. There's parallels for pretty much everything that came before. There's good, hobby languages (blitz and dark basic are basically, err,... blitz, and AMOS Pro). More serious languages are still available, and often cheaper and more powerful than what came before. Free creativity software can be many times more powerful/functional than it used to be, fpga is becoming accessible to Joe Public, many homebrew consoles are available cheaply and so on and so forth. I think the problem is people as much as the computer industry itself.
-
Congrats on using your enter key once in that mess, but it wasn't enough to make it readable.
Okay, really? You keep harassing others when they write harsh, disparaging and/or off-topic replies and you throw this out?
I'm sure you have something to contriblute, so lets hear it!:afro:
-
It's interesting that with all the rise of tablets, smartphones, netbooks etc you keep getting articles in the mainstream press about the 'death of the desktop computer'. I think what is starting to happen is that for people who aren't actually at all interested in computers as such, they will more and more use other devices for their online shopping, banking, social networking, etc. Meanwhile people who are actually interested in computers 'proper' will carry on using them. In some ways it will revert back.
I don't think that there is necessarily less around for computer hobbyists, it just seems like it sometimes as it is so swamped under all the Facebook etc crap.
-
It's interesting that with all the rise of tablets, smartphones, netbooks etc you keep getting articles in the mainstream press about the 'death of the desktop computer'. I think what is starting to happen is that for people who aren't actually at all interested in computers as such, they will more and more use other devices for their online shopping, banking, social networking, etc. Meanwhile people who are actually interested in computers 'proper' will carry on using them. In some ways it will revert back.
I think we *will* see the death of the "desktop" computer, just not as quickly as they think.
What's important to realize is that this is the death of the *form factor*: Eventually no more big bulky boxes that's stuck in a single location.
My cellphone is now far more powerful than my desktop from just a few years ago. New cellphones come with HDMI out in many cases. Wireless HDMI is on the horizon. Bluetooth keyboards and mice. In a couple of years time, for *most* people, a monitor and keyboard with wireless connection to their phone will be sufficiently powerful to do whatever they want. Even for hobbyists. Even laptops are being threatened by this and pads (see for example the Asus Eee Pad Transformer, and whatever that other one that was announced that was a screen, keyboard and extra battery that you slotted your cellphone into to use as a laptop)0
Even in the "do it yourself" arena, look at the Natami and Replay boards. See how tiny they are. I don't remember the precise dimensions of the Natami, but the Replay is about 1/3 the size of a MiniITX board. Another few years and you'll probably be able to put together powerful FPGA powered machines small enough to fit the shell of a current cellphone.
Storage is rapidly exceeding what most people need in tiny packages. My phone has 32GB, and that 32GB card is smaller than the nail on my little finger. Higher capacities in the same form factor are on the way. If I want to store movies I can buy several TB of storage in an external drive smaller than the smallest desktop I've ever owned, and it's getting smaller (or bigger capacity, or both).
Give it a few years, and 99%+ of computer users will have their computing needs *and* their storage needs met by computers smaller than a cellphone, and will only have larger form factors when/where the form factor makes a difference (e.g. tablets for the large screen; laptops or "laptop shells" for keyboard/screen combo) or if they have specialist needs or are being contrarian.
At that point, does it make sense to talk about "desktops"? If the only connection your computer needs is the occasional charging cable, and it fits in your pocket, why chain it to your desk? Maybe you'll keep a large screen and a keyboard at your desk, but no reason to leave the computer there.
The remaining 1% or so (of course the actual percentage is just a wild guess) will still have plenty of opportunity to buy boxes to stuff full of components, but your needs are going to have to be pretty weird for you to need them, and even then you might find that such needs can increasingly be met as "expansion boxes" wirelessly connected to your machine the way network storage can be today.
Doesn't mean that's what they'll all buy or have that quickly - it'll take at least a decade, probably longer, to shift desktops fully out of the mainstream, but it's pretty much inevitable that it'll happen.
But keep in mind that desktops are *already* on the way out. They make up a rapidly shrinking minority of computer-like devices consumers buy, between laptops, netbooks, smart phones, pads etc. And the ones that do get sold are shrinking and/or getting baked into the screen. Last time I went to the local PC World store, I don't remember seeing anything larger than a Mini-ITX style box, and the most space was taken up by laptops and combined computers and screens and cellphones. Of course you can buy bigger ones still, and will "forever", but that's increasingly being relegated to specialist stores.
That's not to say that lots of people won't have computers they keep in one place, but mostly for convenience rather than any need to have boxes big enough to not fit in their pockets or bags.
-
The high-end PC gaming market will, I'm sure, keep the desktop / tower form factor going for quite some time yet. That bleeding edge will always be populated by insanely powerful devices requiring bulky heatsinks, fans and power supplies. For normal use, yes, things are moving in the "pocket computer" direction, but no matter how powerful these mobile CPUs and GPUs get, you'll always be able to make them go faster by increasing the clock speed / number of cores / number of buses and adding a massive heatsink. And I'm sure there'll be a market for that for a long time.
-
@vidarh
whatever that other one that was announced that was a screen, keyboard and extra battery that you slotted your cellphone into to use as a laptop)0
I think you're referring to the Motorola Atrix:
http://www.engadget.com/motorola/atrix-4g-review/
@Daedalus
I agree. There is still a place for the desktop PC form factor, though it's clear the laptop form factor will remain more popular. For example, PCs in the workplace; whilst there is some competition from thin clients, desktop PCs still make the most sense for many companies.
-
I too lament the passing of this early age of computing but it was inevitable that a common standard had to be decided upon (enter Bill Gates, Intel and Microsoft). I think without the global rise of Microsoft the internet would have never got out of the bedrooms of geeks and computers would have remained fragmented and specialist. I have been in employment for the past 13 years largely thanks to the success of Windows.
-
We're seeing some of the '80s in the tablet world, there's iPad, Android, Playboy, even MS Windows. Tablets run on a dozen different and often incompatible processors. Some have GPS or 3G. The number and nature of the off screen buttons vary.
But to answer your question, computers are no longer a hobby, everyone uses them, at least in the developed world. Back in the day, a manufacturer could design something from scratch, you can't do that today. It would be silly to think that a small company could possibly design a better graphics card than NVidia with it's teams of engineers. Today's graphics cards have more processing power and RAM than a mainframe did in the '80s. As some one said, it's like cars, or mobile phones or refrigerators. People buy computers to do stuff, like photos, video, surf the web, write books.
The computer has grown up, moved out of it's parent's garage, got a job, had a family and in general taken on responsibilities.
-
At that point, does it make sense to talk about "desktops"? If the only connection your computer needs is the occasional charging cable, and it fits in your pocket, why chain it to your desk? Maybe you'll keep a large screen and a keyboard at your desk, but no reason to leave the computer there.
That's interesting, I hadn't really thought about that.
I think you're probably right, but I guess there will still be people who want to sit down at a desk properly and tinker for several hours at a time, with a proper screen and full-size keyboard. So maybe it's better to talk about desktop workstations for your computer, rather than desktop computers per se, but I do think they'll always be around, not just for home-office workers but also for computer hobbyists.
Following on from your points, did you see David Braben's tiny £15 ARM-based computer, designed to be attached to a full-size keyboard, mouse and monitor, precisely for the purpose of getting schoolkids to play around with computers as a hobby?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13292450
-
But to answer your question, computers are no longer a hobby, everyone uses them, at least in the developed world... As some one said, it's like cars, or mobile phones or refrigerators.
I think that the comparison with cars in particular is very apt. I use a car every day but I don't care about cars at all, to me they're just a thing to get me from A to B.
But other people I know read car magazines, attend car shows, watch car-related TV shows, participate in car-related online forums - whether vintage or modern. For them, cars are their hobby.
The fact that most people who use cars don't consider it a hobby, doesn't mean that it's not a hobby for some people. Isn't that the same with computers?
EDIT: And I guess the question is, now that computers (including tablets, smartphones etc) are mainstream, are there more or less people for whom computing is a hobby compared to the '80s? My guess is that there are just as many, if not more.
-
@antonvaltaz
Nail, hammer, head.
-
For example, PCs in the workplace; whilst there is some competition from thin clients, desktop PCs still make the most sense for many companies.
I was thinking about this and wondering if this too will end up going back to the days of dumb terminals logged into content providers (not a vax anymore tho ) that allow access to a set of tools depending on your needs and your business checkbook. Certain businesses will run their own servers if the need for security is really paramount, but I think you'll see the costs for maintaining and operating computer power in your business drop dramatically as the cost of rolling out new platforms, updating licenses, and maintenance are all wrapped up in a monthly fee. Then, on your end for hardware, its just replacing monitors as they fry or keyboards as they break.
-
The high-end PC gaming market will, I'm sure, keep the desktop / tower form factor going for quite some time yet.
For a while. But we're not that far off a situation where realtime raytracing becomes cost effective, and raytracing has the very beneficial property that the rendering time doesn't explode as the number of objects increase (but rather with resolution, which is growing quite slowly and is getting close to the point where human eyesight won't notice further increases), unlike with rasterization.
Once that happens, further increases in the power of the computer or GPU's will pretty quickly only marginally improve graphics, as you can keep increasing polygon (or shape, as raytracing can also handle things like spheres etc. cheaply) count dramatically without requiring large performance increases, and the performance improvements will mainly do things like increase the number of refractions that affect the image, which have very little effect on most types of scenes.
That'll take a lot of the incentive for more powerful computers out of the gaming market. It's only so much computing power there's any point in wasting on AI etc..
I'm not doubting that there'll still be some games pushing the limits and taking advantage of really high end gear, but fewer and fewer people will care. In terms of CPU cores, most modern games have trouble exploiting even quad core CPU's fully, and while I'm sure that'll change, it's changing slower than computing power and number of cores is growing, so once the growth on GPU demands subside, I don't think gaming will drive all that much demand for power anymore.
The high end gaming market is already being marginalized anyway - most people are either casual gamers (e.g. satisfied with flash games in a browser or similar) or game on consoles, which are hardly cutting edge performance wise.
-
So maybe it's better to talk about desktop workstations for your computer, rather than desktop computers per se, but I do think they'll always be around, not just for home-office workers but also for computer hobbyists.
I agree with that. After several years of only using laptops I'm about to get a large screen and keyboard hooked up at home, exactly because I'm more productive on a large screen. At work, I do use a laptop, but connected to a big screen and separate keyboard. I think that's essential for serious use. But quite soon it hopefully won't require the big bulky separate box any more.
I particularly look forward to getting to a point where I have all my data everywhere (even when the network isn't available)
Following on from your points, did you see David Braben's tiny £15 ARM-based computer, designed to be attached to a full-size keyboard, mouse and monitor, precisely for the purpose of getting schoolkids to play around with computers as a hobby?
Yes. Want it. Even though I don't really have any uses for it (though perhaps someone will port AROS to it...). It'll be fun to tinker with, though my phone has more memory and a faster ARM chip already :)
-
but why aren't there more of us? What happened to make people no longer become interested in computers, but simply treat them as another appliance?
To be honest I just look at my nephew and his friends all around the age range of 22 to 26, most of them have been to uni studying all sorts of scientific and even computer related subjects. All of them are just like each other, a bedroom full of consoles and PC's but not one of them does any sort of programming or creating audio / artwork etc... (well unless you count making MP3's) :(
All they do is play non stop all these modern 3D style games that all look and play the same to me, or just gibber absolute keech to each other on facebook and the likes about these games... :(
Whenever I used to suggest to them why not try writing you're own programmes or create some music or artwork, the answer I usually got back goes along the lines of "Why !!! when someone else writes the stuff for us and creates the music we like to listen too, why would I want to bother doing something boring like that and anyway I don't have the time..." (I don't bother asking anymore)... :(
To me it would seem that it's all down to the simple fact that since they were born and just kids, computers were already in most of their homes (usually the dads) and to them it's just taken for granted that these are nothing more than another passive method of entertainment just like a TV set or music system... :(
Of course it could also be that they're just lazy gits with no imaginations, but I wont go into that right now... :)
-
It's the way of the modern world, not just a computer thing.
Cars are the same, 20 years ago people knew how to fix their own cars and the guys who worked at the parts stores were knowledgeable and friendly, now its all big stores like Halfords where you get some kid who only knows nothing about mechanics and only about putting big wheels and a loud exhaust on it.
Music is the same, once it was all local record stores where you could spend the day listening to a stack of vinyl and chatting the the sales guys about the newest releases. Now its all an international money making machine with big impersonal stores and internet downloads. (Same thing for books).
I think we just need to be happy that we were lucky enough to experience the beginnings of the computer revolution in the 80s. Computers have just become an ordinary consumer product (like music and cars for the most part) and hence a lot of the magic has gone, at least from what we see on a popular consumer level. But if you dig a bit deeper you will always find the niche genres where there is still exciting/nostalgic/innovative stuff happening that you can get involved in.
-
I agree with that. After several years of only using laptops I'm about to get a large screen and keyboard hooked up at home, exactly because I'm more productive on a large screen. At work, I do use a laptop, but connected to a big screen and separate keyboard. I think that's essential for serious use. But quite soon it hopefully won't require the big bulky separate box any more.
I particularly look forward to getting to a point where I have all my data everywhere (even when the network isn't available)
Yes. Want it. Even though I don't really have any uses for it (though perhaps someone will port AROS to it...). It'll be fun to tinker with, though my phone has more memory and a faster ARM chip already :)
AROS already has an ARM build... I plan to buy one of these and use it as my main AROS machine too :)
-
I think that the comparison with cars in particular is very apt. I use a car every day but I don't care about cars at all, to me they're just a thing to get me from A to B.
But other people I know read car magazines, attend car shows, watch car-related TV shows, participate in car-related online forums - whether vintage or modern. For them, cars are their hobby.
The fact that most people who use cars don't consider it a hobby, doesn't mean that it's not a hobby for some people. Isn't that the same with computers?
EDIT: And I guess the question is, now that computers (including tablets, smartphones etc) are mainstream, are there more or less people for whom computing is a hobby compared to the '80s? My guess is that there are just as many, if not more.
Yep, agree totally here. I actually consider my car a hobby too (and yes, I have too many bloody hobbies!), and the similarities are interesting. I drive the average modern car and think similarly to you - this is fine, it'll get me from A to B, and it doesn't really interest me. What does interest me is repairing my 16 year old car and keeping it running, and just how much better it feels every day to drive to work in a car that's built to be nice to drive, rather than just get the job done!
-
"You cannot expect the soul of a thing to remain when you are constantly strangling every cent out of the body" – J. Golden
Ooh. I'm savin' that one.
I too lament the passing of this early age of computing but it was inevitable that a common standard had to be decided upon (enter Bill Gates, Intel and Microsoft). I think without the global rise of Microsoft the internet would have never got out of the bedrooms of geeks and computers would have remained fragmented and specialist. I have been in employment for the past 13 years largely thanks to the success of Windows.
Quite to the contrary - it was the Internet that drove the mainstreaming of modern GUI desktops, not the other way around. You can tell that just by looking at how much hell broke loose when Microsoft decided to one-up the competition by including a browser with the operating system, or all the cheap-ass PCs sold with an "e" or "i" prefixed and a 56K modem in one slot.
Whenever I used to suggest to them why not try writing you're own programmes or create some music or artwork, the answer I usually got back goes along the lines of "Why !!! when someone else writes the stuff for us and creates the music we like to listen too, why would I want to bother doing something boring like that and anyway I don't have the time..." (I don't bother asking anymore)...
Unfortunately, this is less a computer thing and more the fact that media companies have been training the new generations to be passive consumers of whatever they shovel out for years now...I'd probably be the same way if I wasn't such a shut-in isolated from the popular culture as a kid :(
-
As small as they are, I wonder how much of a stretch it would be to just start putting commodity Arm 1.1ghz dual core CPUs and a build of android - basically a cell phone - inside any and all TVs these days?
Just pop it in there in and amongst all the other circuitry, stick an SD slot on the side of the TV for folks who want more storage...bam, Mr. and Mrs. Livingroom can phone up Jane and Johnny while they're at the university, play Angry Birds, look at photos, etc. all on the TV, no screwing around with a dedicated computer. Just use the remote.
At commodity prices it could hardly cost more than a few bucks to outfit each TV thusly.
(Plus it'd hurt Apple, and I'm all for that.)
-
As small as they are, I wonder how much of a stretch it would be to just start putting commodity Arm 1.1ghz dual core CPUs and a build of android - basically a cell phone - inside any and all TVs these days?
Just pop it in there in and amongst all the other circuitry, stick an SD slot on the side of the TV for folks who want more storage...bam, Mr. and Mrs. Livingroom can phone up Jane and Johnny while they're at the university, play Angry Birds, look at photos, etc. all on the TV, no screwing around with a dedicated computer. Just use the remote.
At commodity prices it could hardly cost more than a few bucks to outfit each TV thusly.
(Plus it'd hurt Apple, and I'm all for that.)
Perhaps ironically, you have probably hit upon Apple's strategy... Though they look to be using a small ARM based box :)
-
What if Apple did an all-in-one TV/iTV?
-
What if Apple did an all-in-one TV/iTV?
they kind of already tried that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_TV)
Abject failure. :P
But anyway, I mean just a TV - samsung, LG, Sony, whoever...with an embedded dual-core ARM solution running 'droid with a built-in 3g connection. My wife's Kindle has one, always on, always free. Why not integrate all of this and have done with?
-
Ah, Apple, king of the All-in-ones. the iTV is pretty small, it takes up little space, so maybe that's not so much an issue. But it's becoming increasingly hard to not get a computer in your TV nowadays, Apple could get squeeze out of the TV market if they aren't careful.
-
Being in right from the start of what can truly be called the beginning of the "home computer experience" there's nothing "Rose Tinted" about it... :)
Totally agree Franko. Our first home computer was a timex sinclair. When not dinking with this I was a big Pet4032 user at my school. I would go to school very early each day in order to get 'Pet time' up in the math department. Our second home computer was a C64. I went off the deep end with this one. Staying up all night very often. Typing in Compute or Computes Gazette for Commodore programs. Reading everything I could from Jim Butterfield, etc... I even dabbled in machine language towards the end. Back then there were various camps. I was of course Commodore. But other friends had atari's, TRS-80, TI-99, etc... It was fierce competition between us back then. All fondly remembered of course. My Amiga experience was less programming and more game playing unfortunately. I just left college and entered the workforce so didn't get a lot of time to hack like I did before. I still remember firing up Sword of Sodan for the first time and being amazed at the capabilities of the A500 compared to the PC's of the time. It was as good as an arcade machine. And I did loads of hacking around in MS-DOS back in the early days of that too. I stay in this wacky game for pleasure now adays.
-
As small as they are, I wonder how much of a stretch it would be to just start putting commodity Arm 1.1ghz dual core CPUs and a build of android - basically a cell phone - inside any and all TVs these days?
Just pop it in there in and amongst all the other circuitry, stick an SD slot on the side of the TV for folks who want more storage...bam, Mr. and Mrs. Livingroom can phone up Jane and Johnny while they're at the university, play Angry Birds, look at photos, etc. all on the TV, no screwing around with a dedicated computer. Just use the remote.
At commodity prices it could hardly cost more than a few bucks to outfit each TV thusly.
Something like this then:
http://www.raspberrypi.org/
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-01/20/raspberry-pi-computer
To be honest, whilst I'm a big fan of the Raspberry Pi project, as it sets out to improve computer education in schools, I absolutely abhor your idea. Sorry for wording this so strongly, but in essence all you're doing is increasing the space for consumption, rather than re-engaging people with the power of computing. The idea isn't to dumb down the interface to give people the basics that companies think they want, it's far better to give people tools and let them find ways to use them for their own benefit.
This Henry Ford quote, related to the innovation of the affordable motor car, kind of touches on what I'm trying to say:
"If I'd asked customers what they wanted, they would have said "a faster horse"."
If you give people devices that just let them consume, then after a while consuming is all they'll expect their devices to do. However, if you give them devices that allow you to freely create as easily as consume, then you've offered them liberation. So don't bury computing power behind lacklustre interfaces, give it a chance to be all it can be.
-
As small as they are, I wonder how much of a stretch it would be to just start putting commodity Arm 1.1ghz dual core CPUs and a build of android - basically a cell phone - inside any and all TVs these days?
Just pop it in there in and amongst all the other circuitry, stick an SD slot on the side of the TV for folks who want more storage...bam, Mr. and Mrs. Livingroom can phone up Jane and Johnny while they're at the university, play Angry Birds, look at photos, etc. all on the TV, no screwing around with a dedicated computer. Just use the remote.
A large percentage of modern flat screen TV's already almost has this. A lot of the Samsung TV's runs Linux, for example. Mine has a USB slot, not SD, but it'll start a media player if you plug any mass storage USB device in it.
EDIT: Take a look here: http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/03/24/hack-your-samsung-tv-linux-guy/
EDIT2: And here for LG TV's: http://mikko.korkalo.fi/openlgtv/
-
I agree that the computers got too complicated for casual programming and the ubiquity of software and the internet give plenty of other options.
I was always extremely interested in programming, but several of my friends picked up decent programming skills just for something to do.
Remember that BASIC was the OS for all intents and purposes. Anything you could make it do was special. Printing something in a loop and seeing it scroll up the screen, changing the screen color, whatever. Today you'd have to make one hell of a demo to feel like you accomplished anything.
Programming hasn't become more complex. But expectations have risen. I.e. a simple basic program has teh sam ecomplexity today as it had years ago. And it does the same stuff (okay, magnitudes faster), but nobody's getting impressed by this today. We are used to polished programs today. And to make those is quite soem work.
But if you do some occaional stuff, it isn't harder than in the past. But don't expect to become a millionare today as a bedroom programmer. Those times are indeed over.
-
Sorry for wording this so strongly, but in essence all you're doing is increasing the space for consumption, rather than re-engaging people with the power of computing. The idea isn't to dumb down the interface to give people the basics that companies think they want, it's far better to give people tools and let them find ways to use them for their own benefit.
+1000 on this. Increasing the omnipresence of empty-headed thin clients designed to run vendor-approved app-store software (and only that) is the last thing that's going to get more people to appreciate computers as computers instead of appliances.
But don't expect to become a millionare today as a bedroom programmer. Those times are indeed over.
Are they, now? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minecraft)
-
+1000 on this. Increasing the omnipresence of empty-headed thin clients designed to run vendor-approved app-store software (and only that) is the last thing that's going to get more people to appreciate computers as computers instead of appliances.
Are they, now? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minecraft)
Oh yeah, the prospect of thin-clients and "cloud computing" becoming mainstream is just a little scary to those of us who wish computers to remain easily modifiable, programmable, and individualized. If everybody moves to the cloud, then the whole "software freedom" movement is dead and the hobbyist movement will slowly wither away.
-
I think what we are seeing is that a lot of people got involved with computers to do very specific things.
Judging from younger people at my workplace things like playing games, listening to music and social networking.
All three can be done using different devices, often easier and simpler, or while on the go.
Thus, the people who got a computer to do those things will switch to different devices. That's okay.
-
Thus, the people who got a computer to do those things will switch to different devices. That's okay.
It's okay in that they have something simple that meets their needs, yeah - but at the same time it's sad, because there's really nothing about these devices that would push them out of their comfort zone to discover other things that can be done with a computer.
-
It's okay in that they have something simple that meets their needs, yeah - but at the same time it's sad, because there's really nothing about these devices that would push them out of their comfort zone to discover other things that can be done with a computer.
This is true. I guess the question is whether they'd have the inclination to or not to begin with.
-
A large percentage of modern flat screen TV's already almost has this. A lot of the Samsung TV's runs Linux, for example. Mine has a USB slot, not SD, but it'll start a media player if you plug any mass storage USB device in it.
EDIT: Take a look here: http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/03/24/hack-your-samsung-tv-linux-guy/
EDIT2: And here for LG TV's: http://mikko.korkalo.fi/openlgtv/
NICE. Very nice. I'd like to see more of this.
-
As small as they are, I wonder how much of a stretch it would be to just start putting commodity Arm 1.1ghz dual core CPUs and a build of android - basically a cell phone - inside any and all TVs these days?
Just pop it in there in and amongst all the other circuitry, stick an SD slot on the side of the TV for folks who want more storage...bam, Mr. and Mrs. Livingroom can phone up Jane and Johnny while they're at the university, play Angry Birds, look at photos, etc. all on the TV, no screwing around with a dedicated computer. Just use the remote.
At commodity prices it could hardly cost more than a few bucks to outfit each TV thusly.
(Plus it'd hurt Apple, and I'm all for that.)
Apparently there are designs that start at around $25.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi
-
The hobby is still here. I'm sure I am not the only one here that built his own PC.
Thats more hobby to me than just buying a Dell.
Upgrading it here and there with a better Graphics card for gaming or 3d art.
Maybe even installing a car cigerette lighter in a drive bay. The hobby is still here just smaller and different.
-
The hobby is still here. I'm sure I am not the only one here that built his own PC.
Thats more hobby to me than just buying a Dell.
Upgrading it here and there with a better Graphics card for gaming or 3d art.
Maybe even installing a car cigerette lighter in a drive bay. The hobby is still here just smaller and different.
Ehh...I'm all for assembling one's own PC (cheaper and better than buying a pre-built, every time!) But it's hardly the same thing as working with the old machines, in my opinion - even on user-assembled PCs you're still usually running an OS that puts you layers and layers away from the hardware and doesn't even come with a programming language...
-
Ehh...I'm all for assembling one's own PC (cheaper and better than buying a pre-built, every time!) But it's hardly the same thing as working with the old machines, in my opinion - even on user-assembled PCs you're still usually running an OS that puts you layers and layers away from the hardware and doesn't even come with a programming language...
Awww...c'mon now! There's bash scripting, python, java, haskell :D
Of course, it isn't quite assembler and basic, but then python and haskell are pretty fun and not terribly complicated.
-
Yeah, but that's only if you run Linux, or install that stuff on Windows. The old-school stuff has something built in. (And not just BASIC, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_Ace) either...) It's a message from designer to user: "This is your computer, learn how to make it do what you want it to do."
-
Yeah, but that's only if you run Linux.
Doesn't everyone? :lol:
But yeah - i'm picking up what you are laying down.
-
Doesn't everyone? :lol:
But yeah - i'm picking up what you are laying down.
Erm... nope... :D
-
Doesn't everyone? :lol:
Heh :D I'm weaning myself from Windows XP gradually (I'll be damned if they're going to get me to move to 7 or 8,) but you know what they say about old habits...
-
well, there's a lot of "stuff" you can get out of a computer.
Some people like tinkering with hardware.
Some people like doing crazy casemods and custom jobs.
Some people like coding.
Some people like tweaking performance.
Some people like customizing the hell out of the user interface etc etc.
-
Erm... nope... :D
But you have the freedom to do so. And thats the great thing about it :)