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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: digiflip on May 17, 2011, 06:06:52 PM
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Don't seem to hear any news on this anymore?
Last I heard was Jens Schönfeld finished the hardware and was working on gui interface for his hardware and licensing issues for Amiga os.
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I heard he used his FPGA designs to make the Indivision AGA and ECS model scan doublers.
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Dunno... but me dog's died (yet again...) :(
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Jens is vaporware.
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Dunno... but me dog's died (yet again...) :(
Sorry to hear that mate. :cry:
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Don't seem to hear any news on this anymore?
Last I heard was Jens Schönfeld finished the hardware and was working on gui interface for his hardware and licensing issues for Amiga os.
Maybe I understood things wrong, but I had the impression that he ended up believing that Amiga Inc. were not the correct people to license OS/firmware from. Who is correct, dunno, wish I could remember where I saw that talk, but I may have seen it more as other people talking about what Jens may have said.
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Sorry to hear that mate. :cry:
That's ok, the old bugger does it all the time... :(
A quick thump on his ribcage soon get's him going again... :)
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and licensing issues
...and AFAIK, that was where it stopped.
Maybe he could try again now? Amiga Inc seems more willing to enter licensing agreements these days... ;)
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Maybe I understood things wrong, but I had the impression that he ended up believing that Amiga Inc. were not the correct people to license OS/firmware from. Who is correct, dunno, wish I could remember where I saw that talk, but I may have seen it more as other people talking about what Jens may have said.
You're not imagining it. I've posted the quote numerous times.
From Jens Schoenfeld April, 2007 on AW:
Bill McEwen, who hasn't been able to give any proof of ownership of the classic Amiga OS in the past 20 months, who wanted to send me contracts "by the end of the week" (that was in february),
#6
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Jens is vaporware.
Not Jens, but obviously Clone-A...
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@number6
I guess he tried to find other (and more willing) entities he could negotiate a license from...?
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@number6
I guess he tried to find other (and more willing) entities he could negotiate a license from...?
Methinks Brian Bagnall's book will be considered a short subject if the Amiga Inc. story ever gets written. Heh.
#6
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Jens won't release the Clone-A without proper licensing. Bill McEwen has offered a license, but has failed to prove that he has the authority to do so.
So the Clone-A hangs in limbo as Jens won't release it till he can obtain valid licensing.
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Can't he talk directly to Gateway, Inc ?
Besides if ACube can deliver complete clones. Then Jens ought to be able to deliver chip clones?
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Maybe the idea is to run AROS 68k on Clone-A ? That way Jens could release it with a good degree of Amiga compatibility, without having to obtain a license.
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so spec wise if by some miracle clone-a got released how it specs wise compare to like fpga arcade and Natami MX boards?
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I was talking pure HW ;)
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Can't he talk directly to Gateway, Inc ?
Besides if ACube can deliver complete clones. Then Jens ought to be able to deliver chip clones?
Gateway sold its trademarks and then subsequently licensed its patents to Amino.
The question is, did Gateway have a proper license for this technology?
The last valid IP holders appear to be Commodore-Amiga.
The oly rights
What Commodore agreed to sell were trade marks.
And as a side light, Acube machines are NOT clones. They don't run legacy software (easily) and represent a new direction for the OS and the hardware.
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I heard he used his FPGA designs to make the Indivision AGA and ECS model scan doublers.
AFAIR, you're right that the recent Indivision ECS flickerfixer/scandoubler has CloneA HDL code in it, but the AGA version of Indivision does not. Can't remember the exact reason, think the code was included in the ECS version to get around some of the limitations of the original ECS chipset.
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A legal "hack" could be to setup a liability limited company that violates the copyright on the AmigaOS 2.x on record. Then see who will sue and challenge in court to have them prove their legal ownership. If no one sues, then statute of limitations should make the case expire and subsequent cases void.
Another approch is to write to the Copyright office and ask for any information regarding the chain of title (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_of_title).
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so spec wise if by some miracle clone-a got released how it specs wise compare to like fpga arcade and Natami MX boards?
AFAIK the focus with Clone-A is to *clone* an Amiga 500; meaning aiming for absolute perfect reverse engineered chipset for *100%* SW compatibility. The focus with Natami OTOH is to reimplement and *improve* the chipset, which inevitably will mean breaking a certain amount of compatibility. So spec-wise the Clone-A *will be* an Amiga 500 (no ethernet, usb, pci, 256MB chipmem or whatever), while Natami will be something else. Different purposes, different goals.
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In particular Clone-A shoud provide a path to repair broken A500:s with pre-programmed CPLD/FPGAs.
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Last time he mentioned it (a few months back) he said he was still planning on releasing in 'one day'. I'm not sure if he'll bother though because it looks like the FPGA Arcade will be released soon and that will do much the same as what the CloneA was supposed to do.
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Last time he mentioned it (a few months back) he said he was still planning on releasing in 'one day'. I'm not sure if he'll bother though because it looks like the FPGA Arcade will be released soon and that will do much the same as what the CloneA was supposed to do.
That depends on what else he might consider for CloneA. I like some features of Natami board, the PCI slot for example, that FPGA Arcade lacks. But I don't think we expect to be able to put anything else in the FPGA other than what Natami team puts there, so we can't play around like we could with FPGA Arcade. (I'm nto saying Natami team shoudl open-source the inside-the-FPGA HDL stuff, but I'd love to know what things hook to what FPGA pins so I could put somethign completely different inside there and play around) Really, the only reason we care about FPGA Arcade is because we can put Minimig inside the FPGA there. If not for that, there probably wouldn't be nearly as much interest around here. Some perhaps, but not as much.
If CloneA made more of a computer motherboard shaped thing, that could be very interesting compared to FPGA Arcade, like I think Natami's board is more interesting than FPGA Arcade board. But then openness/closedness considerations come into the mix too. I wouldn't ask Jens to open-source CloneA HDL, btu to consider allowing people to put other things inside the FPGA and have some fun, and document the board for that. (I'd love to see Natami do the same someday)
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"but I'd love to know what things hook to what FPGA pins" easily fixed with a core that toggles them on command from a serial line (rs232//usb) and a oscilloscope ;)
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AFAIK the focus with Clone-A is to *clone* an Amiga 500; meaning aiming for absolute perfect reverse engineered chipset for *100%* SW compatibility. The focus with Natami OTOH is to reimplement and *improve* the chipset, which inevitably will mean breaking a certain amount of compatibility. So spec-wise the Clone-A *will be* an Amiga 500 (no ethernet, usb, pci, 256MB chipmem or whatever), while Natami will be something else. Different purposes, different goals.
I think thats correct. Didn't they show the CloneA chip replacements actually plugged into an A500 motherboard at some show where they had a contest to see if anyone could bring something that would run on the Amiga but not with the cloned chips?
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This is where 68K AROS would come in handy....
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I think thats correct. Didn't they show the CloneA chip replacements actually plugged into an A500 motherboard at some show where they had a contest to see if anyone could bring something that would run on the Amiga but not with the cloned chips?
What you replied to was actually an incorrect assumption.
They showed CloneA chips plugged into an A500 motherboard just because they implemented each individual chip separately and that was the best way to test that they indeed worked identically to the originals.
Jens later said that the final CloneA was not going to be like this, but everything would be munged into a custom motherboard / perhaps larger fpga.. Unfortunately I don't have any links to back my claim right now and am in too much of a hurry to dig them up..
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I think thats correct. Didn't they show the CloneA chip replacements actually plugged into an A500 motherboard at some show where they had a contest to see if anyone could bring something that would run on the Amiga but not with the cloned chips?
Yes they have done that, but AFAIK this was only in a development phase. AFAIK the real "end-user" product was supposed to be a single chip solution, and in an extension not even FPGA based but real silicon. Then it could be used in a dirt-cheap, mass produced "Amiga in a joystick" kind of product.
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so if clone_A was to be released it more or less like Minimig but more precise/compatible. So It wouldn't include AGA like Natami and FPGA Arcade. If this Is so, why didn't Jen release before Minimig. Seems like it might be too late for this.
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so if clone_A was to be released it more or less like Minimig but more precise/compatible. So It wouldn't include AGA like Natami and FPGA Arcade. If this Is so, why didn't Jen release before Minimig. Seems like it might be too late for this.
The long term goals were different I think. Minimig is a hobby thing in extremely low volume from a guy(s) who like to tinker with FPGA's. The purpose with Clone-A was to clone an Amiga 500 (which has the biggest collection of games, the ones the broad masses would remember) for *100% SW compatibility*, into a silicon chip for use in mass produced devices. I don't think it's too late, but I don't think it will happen. This is probably *the one* product that would *really* need the Amiga brand (and kickstart, etc) in order to be realized, it couldn't be seriously marketed otherwise. So it would need a solid blessing from a solid IP owner, and I think this is where the project fell. I think there is too much money/risk involved to get started seriously without it.
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AFAIK the focus with Clone-A is to *clone* an Amiga 500; meaning aiming for absolute perfect reverse engineered chipset for *100%* SW compatibility. The focus with Natami OTOH is to reimplement and *improve* the chipset, which inevitably will mean breaking a certain amount of compatibility. So spec-wise the Clone-A *will be* an Amiga 500 (no ethernet, usb, pci, 256MB chipmem or whatever), while Natami will be something else. Different purposes, different goals.
I think thats correct. Didn't they show the CloneA chip replacements actually plugged into an A500 motherboard at some show where they had a contest to see if anyone could bring something that would run on the Amiga but not with the cloned chips?
Bzzzzt...wrong! CloneA isn't just an OCS compatible device, plan was to have cycle exact versions of OCS, ECS and AGA. In other words, it's designed to be perfectly compatible with ALL Amiga software, not just A500 software.
I imagine the reason you think this is because only the OCS chipset implementation has been fully demonstrated so far. However, there's been more information on the CloneA posted by Jens and Oliver on the English Amiga Board which fills in some of the details. Recommend looking through these posts for a more accurate picture of the CloneA project.
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Shame Jens doesn't post here anymore :( perhaps someone could lure him back?
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I really doubt it Bloodline..
There is a reason why many have stopped posting here.
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A legal "hack" could be to setup a liability limited company that violates the copyright on the AmigaOS 2.x on record. Then see who will sue and challenge in court to have them prove their legal ownership. If no one sues, then statute of limitations should make the case expire and subsequent cases void.
Copyright law doesn't work like that. You don't need to enforce a copyright for it to remain valid, and so even if no one sues that is no guarantee that they won't sue later. For trademarks something like this might work.
Another approch is to write to the Copyright office and ask for any information regarding the chain of title (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_of_title).
Copyright transfers don't need to be registered. You only need a copyright to be registered if you wish to seek statutory damages (as opposed to actual damages). If the copyrights and subsequent transfers aren't properly registered it might affect *how much* you can get sued for, but it doesn't prevent a copyright owner from successfully suing as long as they can prove ownership in court.
But in the case of AmigaOS, your biggest issue would likely be the cost of the lawsuit.
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But in the case of AmigaOS, your biggest issue would likely be the cost of the lawsuit.
Ironic that the cost of the lawsuit would probably be more than buying Amiga Inc or AmigaOS from whoever.
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Shame Jens doesn't post here anymore :( perhaps someone could lure him back?
I talked with him recently:
1. CloneA is not cancelled and will be released
2. Licensing is not a problem (If I understood his words correctly the user will use the kickstart rom of his choice: AROS, Original roms, replacement rom, etc...).
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Shame Jens doesn't post here anymore :( perhaps someone could lure him back?
Won't happen any time soon I believe.
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?p=531872#post531872
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?p=533513#post533513
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A legal "hack" could be to setup a liability limited company that violates the copyright on the AmigaOS 2.x on record. Then see who will sue and challenge in court to have them prove their legal ownership. If no one sues, then statute of limitations should make the case expire and subsequent cases void.
Another approch is to write to the Copyright office and ask for any information regarding the chain of title (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_of_title).
I'm not sure that statute of limitation really applies.
"Note, however, that limitations periods may begin when the cause of action is deemed to have arisen, or when a plaintiff had reason to know of the harm, rather than at the time of the original event."
They could sue for future losses caused by you breaking the law now & the date of the future loss could be when the statute of limitations clock starts ticking.
The copyright office doesn't necessarily have to be aware of the owner for the copyright to be valid. Berne copyright convention doesn't require registration of any copyright.
Basically there are no short cuts. You could do what the old commodore did, break the copyright but put money aside in case they come knocking for money. Then settle out of court with the royalties. You'd need to put quite a bit of money aside though.
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Ironic that the cost of the lawsuit would probably be more than buying Amiga Inc or AmigaOS from whoever.
That's probably true for what Amiga Inc. is actually worth. But they seem to think they are worth some ludicrous high amount, and should probably be checked by psychiatrists for such a vast break with reality.
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Maybe Jens or someone else could simply buy Amiga Inc and get things in order that way? ;)
Or maybe we have to wait until McEven (McOddbal?) gets even more desperate? :P
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Bzzzzt...wrong! CloneA isn't just an OCS compatible device, plan was to have cycle exact versions of OCS, ECS and AGA. In other words, it's designed to be perfectly compatible with ALL Amiga software, not just A500 software.
I imagine the reason you think this is because only the OCS chipset implementation has been fully demonstrated so far. However, there's been more information on the CloneA posted by Jens and Oliver on the English Amiga Board which fills in some of the details. Recommend looking through these posts for a more accurate picture of the CloneA project.
Do you have links for these references to these implementations of ecs,aga into clone a?
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Noticed Jens still frequents Eab fourms. so started new thread on there. If it gets approved jens may give us all some answers on the situation on clone a.
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Some infoish
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=59294
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Ok, So it's work in progress and there will be annoucement when it's done. It's not aimed at nichemarkets like NatAmi and FPGA Arcade. And will attract new developers.
So it ought to be a more general solution that make it attractive for developers.
Question is if it's worth waiting for a product with an unknown release date, uknown price, and unknown functionality.
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Question is if it's worth waiting for a product with an unknown release date, uknown price, and unknown functionality.
Heh.. Based on reading these Amiga web forums, apart from the unknown functionality part, that seems like your average day for an Amiga diehard? :-)
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Jens Has confirmed it is still alive but wont give details incase someone nicks his ideas. I think if its good might leave Natami on proverbial retail shelf and buy Clone-A for real Amiga computer and FPGA arcade for retro amiga.
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Jens Has confirmed it is still alive but wont give details incase someone nicks his ideas. I think if its good might leave Natami on proverbial retail shelf and buy Clone-A for real Amiga computer and FPGA arcade for retro amiga.
I think I'll see if any of these make it to the market and decide if any of them suit my application and are worth my money then. :-)
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If Amiga want's to be on the edge. It better have memory protection. And something else that make it worthwhile to ditch an Intel core CPU at Gigahertz with Gigabytes of DRAM. And of course I/O interfaces to match like PCI-express.
I know the Intel architecture sucks rotten horse eggs (little endian, segments, cpuid, bus smartness). But instructions per second per dollar, it's hard to beat. And should one for example want to run an FPGA synthesiz. That software is x86 only asfaik.
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@thread
"Has Clone-A died?"
I guess not (http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=824331&postcount=42)
Link courtesy @Shufflepuck from AW.
#6
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@thread
"Has Clone-A died?"
I guess not (http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=824331&postcount=42)
Link courtesy @Shufflepuck from AW.
#6
Talk about holding your cards close to your vest..... ;-)
Hope for Jen's sake that everyone hasn't bought a Replay before he gets to market with his "secret features".
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@thread
"Has Clone-A died?"
I guess not (http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=824331&postcount=42)
Link courtesy @Shufflepuck from AW.
#6
Well that's nice to hear :)
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Clone-A *will be* an Amiga 500 (no ethernet, usb, pci, 256MB chipmem or whatever), while Natami will be something else. Different purposes, different goals.
256MB chip? Strange Amiga 500 you would have there :-)
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Talk about holding your cards close to your vest..... ;-)
Hope for Jen's sake that everyone hasn't bought a Replay before he gets to market with his "secret features".
It won't matter, his idea is so simple that Replay can support it. Maybe it won't be done properly, but not many people will care about that.
Otherwise if it really would take several man years to implement it, then talking about it now would be fine. Unless Jens thinks Clone-A won't be out in the next couple of years.
256MB chip? Strange Amiga 500 you would have there :-)
He was listing all the things Clone-A would not have.
"Clone-A *will be* an Amiga 500 (no ethernet, usb, pci, 256MB chipmem or whatever), "
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He was listing all the things Clone-A would not have.
"Clone-A *will be* an Amiga 500 (no ethernet, usb, pci, 256MB chipmem or whatever), "
I was being a little tongue in check, NVM :-)