Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: digiflip on May 16, 2011, 10:38:21 PM
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??
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Yes.
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Starting new trolling threads over here too, eh? What do you really want to achieve with this personal crusade of yours? :)
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Well, it's certainly taking its sweet time in getting anywhere, but on the other hand, they haven't taken anybody's money for preorders or (to my knowledge) announced and then missed release dates. Draw your own conclusions, but I'd say "no."
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I really don't get what you have against Natami?
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No, and if you look at their page, they have been fairly consistent with their recent news updates...
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Obviously trolling, but just wanted to chime in that I agree - their recent updates (especially the ones "by that guy's daughter", sorry I can't be bothered to dig up a link right now) have been phenomenal! :)
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Obviously trolling, but just wanted to chime in that I agree - their recent updates (especially the ones "by that guy's daughter", sorry I can't be bothered to dig up a link right now) have been phenomenal! :)
I'm not a fan of "that guys daughter". Every time i see it i get the impression they are taking the piss out of me :lol:
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NO. They maybe taking their time BUT the NATAMI is the most advanced FPGA Amiga we will get so there are bound to be problems BUT better for you to go to there site and check it out.
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Its vapour until it arrives. However they have been excellent with tons of pictures of progress on their website, and they haven't taken anyones money. So I feel pretty hopefull :)
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Its vapour until it arrives. However they have been excellent with tons of pictures of progress on their website, and they haven't taken anyones money. So I feel pretty hopefull :)
Well I guess as it's not a commercial product and just a hobby type deal, I can cut them some slack and not call it vapourware just yet.
They have taken their sweet time though haven't they and it now looks like the FPGA Arcade will steal most of their potential 'market'.
I do believe that they will eventually release something you can buy but it will probably be case of 'too little, too late', much like the X1000 I guess ;)
Just my thoughts...
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I havent looked at the FPGA arcade feature list for a while, but I seem to recall Natami aims at providing a lot more amiga specific stuff.
A bit of competition doesn't hurt though :) Results in better products for everybody
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Yes, Natami is Vaporware. Their website is a hoax, there aren't even really people working on it. The Natami project is secretly a front for the Matrix.
The Natami will secretly be an Intel based windows phone running Amiga Forever.
Obey My Dog!
(http://dvdmedia.ign.com/dvd/image/zoolander03.jpg)
This thread brings the suck.
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Judging by what little information is on the FPGA Arcade site, I'm guessing it'll be something more like Minimig where it's a reimplementation of an A500 - NatAmi is more geared towards people who use or want to use a 68k Amiga for serious day-to-day computing. Not that there isn't overlap between the markets, but I'd think one hardly kills the prospects for the other.
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@commodorejohn
+1
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@commodorejohn
+1
+2
It IS a hobby machine after all, so there isn't a massive team with a marketing section and all that. Just a small collection of dedicated people (and one cool lil' girl) who are giving it a try and seeing if it can fill the void. I see that as a good thing since that is how the original Amiga started. It was adding all that other stuff (Marketing, Management) that killed it...
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Its vapour until it arrives.
+1
There is nothing tangible you can buy as of yet. There has been many examples of very interesting projects that got this far (or even further) that had better financial backing but yet never made it. From the top of my mind (but I recall *a very long list* here at amiga.org some year ago):
http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/pios/pios1mb.jpg
http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/boxer3.jpg
http://tdolphin.org/amikrak/amizaduszki2k6/DSC01915.JPG
http://tdolphin.org/amikrak/amizaduszki2k6/DSC01922.JPG
The Natami still has some way to go, and from history we have learned that this is where many projects fail (and not where the Natami has been this far). Not that I think they will fail, but the "product" simply isn't a *product* yet, so it's still vapor! :)
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By some definitions (very long time coming, still not available) I think it fits into the category of vapourware by now, but even though Ive thus far been a bit iffy of Natami I still do expect something to see the light of day, so I personally dont feel comfortable labelling it as vapor.
As for fpgaarcade, Im not nearly as informed as some, but I was under the impression it's somewhat more "ambitious" (for lack of a better word) than minimig. Correct me if Im mistaken, but doesnt it support aga, and faster cpus than minimig ? Both also have a few chipram and bandwidth impovements vs. "real" chipset implementations. Unless Im mistaken, fpgaarcade would indeed cut into some of natami's "market" (ie. those that just want a new replacement aga/68k machine with a few enhancements). Granted Natami also brings a few additional extras to the table, but unless my understanding of fpgaarcade is inaccurate whoever gets something out first, I believe, will get a few extra sales.
For now theyre little more than an interesting curiousity to me (Im happy with my a1200), but I do look forward to seeing them "in the flesh" one day :)
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As for fpgaarcade, Im not nearly as informed as some, but I was under the impression it's somewhat more "ambitious" (for lack of a better word) than minimig.
Could be; there doesn't seem to be much at all on the site about it, so maybe it's one of those projects (like Natami) where most of the information is on forum or blog posts and I just haven't encountered it.
In any case, there might be more overlap than I thought, but I still think both projects have clearly distinct appeal and target markets (such as those would be, with no actual marketing.) FPGA Arcade is obviously aimed towards retro gamers, seeing as the Amiga functionality is only one of a variety of platforms supported, while Natami is aimed squarely at Amiga fans and aims to support one system extremely well. Not saying that there's no overlap, but I'm thinking there's certainly room for both in the world.
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By some definitions (very long time coming, still not available) I think it fits into the category of vapourware by now, but even though Ive thus far been a bit iffy of Natami I still do expect something to see the light of day, so I personally dont feel comfortable labelling it as vapor.
I agree. Vaporware is such a harsh word. As soon as something is labelled "vaporware" it automatically becomes something bad which is utter crap. I'm not prepared to give such an absolute judgement on the NatAmi at this time and all of the negative comments so far in this thread are a complete exaggeration.
C'mon guys let's not judge them as failures until they actually fail. At least give them a chance to do some good.
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There are working physical prototypes. I would say that means that it isn't vaporware.
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Maybe it is a sweet aroma.
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"Vaporware" has such a negative connotation in this community that I wouldn't want to label anything with that title unless they've earned it.
To me, Vaporware is something that is promised over and over again but either never surfaces or the final product doesn't deliver anything near what was promised.
So far, NatAmi has not crossed that line AFAIK.
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At least they have more than one piece of working hardware.
It is not vaporware, it is just not available to everyone.
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Its vapour until it arrives. However they have been excellent with tons of pictures of progress on their website, and they haven't taken anyones money. So I feel pretty hopefull :)
It's only vaporware once you think it may not come out.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vapourware
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There are working physical prototypes. I would say that means that it isn't vaporware.
If they had fully working boards, they would release it, don't you think? But they haven't got everything together yet, it's not ready, it's not here. Vapor is something you can't grab. I couldn't get a fully working Natami today even if I tried. It's not even finished enough to be released, and only time will tell if it will or won't make it all the way. Mind you, I actually think most of these projects (http://www.amiga.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-29050.html) reached a stage of working physical prototypes, but they were still shelved before a release. Don't get me wrong, I like the Natami and I hope it makes it. But I'm not holding my breath. I fully consider it vapor until they *really* have something for sale. Only time will tell if it ever will.
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As for fpgaarcade, Im not nearly as informed as some, but I was under the impression it's somewhat more "ambitious" (for lack of a better word) than minimig. Correct me if Im mistaken, but doesnt it support aga, and faster cpus than minimig
You're right, it supports AGA. As it stands, the FPGA Arcade comes with 32MB RAM, I believe, and the CPU performs at the level of a 50MHz 68030, though Yaqube has said he hopes to match a 68040 @ 25MHz in terms of performance. There's also a 68060 card with ethernet (there's a 68060 card for Natami too, but it's mostly for development use and possibly if you need an MMU). The source for the cores is also due to be released, so the community can improve it further.
Natami likely has faster memory, and certainly more, USB, PCI, ethernet and in general lots more expandability out of the box. It of course also has "Super AGA". It also has a bigger/faster (and more expensive) FPGA.
There's a big gap between them, but FPGA Arcade certainly is a massive step up from Minimig. Consider FPGA Arcade a souped up A1200 and Natami a fully decked out A4000 perhaps for a rough idea of where they stand relative to each other. The Natami should in theory at least significantly beat an A4000 with the fastest 68060 accelerators around when using the softcore CPU if it performs as they hope.
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If they had fully working boards, they would release it, don't you think? But they haven't got everything together yet, it's not ready, it's not here. Vapor is something you can't grab. I couldn't get a fully working Natami today even if I tried. It's not even finished enough to be released, and only time will tell if it will or won't make it all the way. Mind you, I actually think most of these projects (http://www.amiga.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-29050.html) reached a stage of working physical prototypes, but they were still shelved before a release. Don't get me wrong, I like the Natami and I hope it makes it. But I'm not holding my breath. I fully consider it vapor until they *really* have something for sale. Only time will tell if it ever will.
WOAH WOAH hang on a minute. Maybe Morphos has the luxury of using established hardware like Apple Macs but remember NatAmi are not just making software for established hardware but they are actually making the hardware itself. It's a bit different so maybe you should stop comparing NatAmi to Morphos and start giving encouragement.
Jesus i'm starting to sound like a NatAmi zealot :eek:
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IMHO, Natami has come further than those:
http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/pios/transam.html PIOS was a PC style design with PPC CPU. No legacy hardware.
http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/boxerdelay.html - Boxer 3 was cancelled due to lack of funds. This will not happen to Natami. We have no funds to cancel! :-D
http://tdolphin.org/amikrak/amizaduszki2k6/DSC01915.JPG
The Natami is more ambitious in scope than any of these mentioned. We will provide our own CPU. We do not totally depend on any single hardware vendor.
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WOAH WOAH hang on a minute. Maybe Morphos has the luxury of using established hardware like Apple Macs but remember NatAmi are not just making software for established hardware but they are actually making the hardware itself. It's a bit different so maybe you should stop comparing NatAmi to Morphos and start giving encouragement.
Jesus i'm starting to sound like a NatAmi zealot :eek:
What has MorphOS got to do with anything?
Look, all I'm saying is that the Natami is a *very* ambitious project (with a custom CPU and everything), and that I (and probably many others) have been "let down" by so many other promising developments that has been *half* as "ambitious" as this one is. I'm not saying that Natami will fail, I don't want it to fail, but most projects *do* in fact fail, some at a point even further down the road than Natami is now. I do like to read the progress reports, it sounds promising and all, but so did so many other projects as well. So I'll consider it being real and tangible only when it's out for sale. Until that happens I'll not invest any "emotional capital" into this one.
Anyway, I have made my point regarding this and won't post further. I just wanted to respond to your strange and out of the air "compare Natami with MorphOS" statements. I never did that. Why would I?
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We have no funds to cancel! :-D
:lol:
Well good for you! ;)
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What has MorphOS got to do with anything?
Look, all I'm saying is that the Natami is a *very* ambitious project (with a custom CPU and everything), and that I (and probably many others) have been "let down" by so many other promising developments that has been *half* as "ambitious" as this one is. I'm not saying that Natami will fail, I don't want it to fail, but most projects *do* in fact fail, some at a point even further down the road than Natami is now. I do like to read the progress reports, it sounds promising and all, but so did so many other projects as well. So I'll consider it being real and tangible only when it's out for sale. Until that happens I'll not invest any "emotional capital" into this one.
Anyway, I have made my point regarding this and won't post further. I just wanted to respond to your strange and out of the air "compare Natami with MorphOS" statements. I never did that. Why would I?
Sorry, I was just assuming you were comparing the NatAmi to Morphos. Just looking at your avatar and your sig gives the impression of bias ;)
I am only a recent addition to the Amiga community so i may not have been burnt like some others around here. But i can see lots of new things coming over the horizon such as the new kickstart, and constant advancements with Aros, that really have me excited. So i don't think being negative is the way to go. Once we start turning on each other the Amiga is doomed forever.
Why not post anymore in this thread? I wasn't attacking you i was just making a point so i'm sorry if i offended you. I'm not trolling :)
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well my 2 cents Duke Nukem forever was once vapourware ie been development over 10 years.
The Team of Fpgaa Arcade is about 2 main people I believe Ie Mike J and Jakub which hopefully be out within the next few months if not sooner.
Yet Natami team been in development nearly has long Has Jens Jens Schoenfeld's Clone A Ie around from 2004/5 .
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Judging by what little information is on the FPGA Arcade site, I'm guessing it'll be something more like Minimig where it's a reimplementation of an A500 - NatAmi is more geared towards people who use or want to use a 68k Amiga for serious day-to-day computing. Not that there isn't overlap between the markets, but I'd think one hardly kills the prospects for the other.
I'm not going to get into Natami bashing here, it's a great project driven by some talented engineers.
I accept the comment about the lack of info on the FPGAArcade web site. We are currently developing a new web site. We have been busy producing the board and working on the firmware. I'm in china at the moment and have just send the 3rd revision data to manufacture.
/MikeJ
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Natami vapour? Only from an public availability standpoint. Obvious there is much development activity going on with this project. It is active as evidenced by their website postings. They are going for the gold when it comes to Amiga hardware implementation. As far as I know, their intent is to finish development of a 'phase 1' sort of board and offer it as a buyable product. Maybe the word vapour needs to be replaced with 'product in development'. So a great modern Amiga is in the works. And...a great FPGA based computer board for any other non-68K endevour.
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There are working physical prototypes
If they had fully working boards, they would release it, don't you think?
I don't think you quite get the meaning of "prototypes." :hammer:
desiv
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I accept the comment about the lack of info on the FPGAArcade web site. We are currently developing a new web site. We have been busy producing the board and working on the firmware. I'm in china at the moment and have just send the 3rd revision data to manufacture.
Yeah, that makes sense. Interesting to hear that it's actually quite an improvement - I'd kind of figured that it was more a general-purpose gamer-targeted multisystem from the description.
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well my 2 cents Duke Nukem forever was once vapourware ie been development over 10 years.
The Team of Fpgaa Arcade is about 2 main people I believe Ie Mike J and Jakub which hopefully be out within the next few months if not sooner.
Yet Natami team been in development nearly has long Has Jens Jens Schoenfeld's Clone A Ie around from 2004/5 .
well, its also a more ambitious project in some ways. The aim is to surpass the original chipsets and processors rather than just emulate them, as well as provide some other neat bits (like floppy controller etc)
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who uses floppys in 2011, guess you ain't heard of flash drives and sd cards etc.
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I think a lot of folks don't seem to realize that both the Natami and the Replay are labors of love by enthusiasts who have day jobs. By all rights the Amiga should have gone away in 1994 with Commodore. The fact that some folks want to make one today should amaze people into silence and just sit back and enjoy the show. I enjoy reading the play-by-play of the build process as it progresses here and elsewhere in the forums.
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well maybe if enough people love these products? new people will come to love them too eventually
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who uses floppys in 2011, guess you ain't heard of flash drives and sd cards etc.
The NatAmi MX board prototypes have a CompactFlash controller right on the motherboard.
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I suppose could use the floppy controller for the HXc Flopppy but it bit expensive at 70 gb pounds and build time of 6 to 10 weeks I think.
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NatAmi Rulez ok... Nuff said... :)
(Well it will when it gets released...) :D
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who uses floppys in 2011, guess you ain't heard of flash drives and sd cards etc.
Yes, I've heard of those things you mention. :)
For my retro computers, I use floppies frequently.
I use whdload also, but that's in addition to the floppies...
Just for the nostalgia...
desiv
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who uses floppys in 2011, guess you ain't heard of flash drives and sd cards etc.
The same people using serial and parallel ports, Atari-standard joystick ports, 15KHz video output etc.
Retro computing enthusiasts. The very target market of the machine.
People are breathing down our necks about compatibility, and you complain about features making it more Amiga compatible?
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who uses floppys in 2011, guess you ain't heard of flash drives and sd cards etc.
I do! Floppies kick ass.
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who uses floppys in 2011, guess you ain't heard of flash drives and sd cards etc.
Guess you haven't heard of capitalization.
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I do! Floppies kick ass.
Nah... no way man... :)
Old C64 Tapes kick some bottom, 15 minutes of loading then the message that makes your day... LOAD ERROR ... :furious:
Now that's Retro entertainment... :D
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I myself am heavily dependent upon floppies, not just because I use a lot of older computers, but also because I need them to operate a lot of my older music equipment. Therefore I am very happy that the Natami will support a floppy drive, so I can use it to hack old obscure sampler disk formats etc.
And do not come tell me "lol change ur synths and samplers lol" because there are no modern replacements providing the very same functions and sound.
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Well I guess as it's not a commercial product and just a hobby type deal, I can cut them some slack and not call it vapourware just yet.
And even if you or somebody else would call it vapourware it would not change anything. Just to say I don't see the reason for this thread.
greets,
Staf.
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Hmm, well OK, just *one* more post before I shut up in this thread:
I don't think you quite get the meaning of "prototypes."
OK, if having a *not* fully working prototype, and *not* having the thing publicly available means that something isn't to be consider vapor, then I guess we can lift the "vapor" label from this one too:
http://tdolphin.org/amikrak/amizaduszki2k6/DSC01915.JPG
http://tdolphin.org/amikrak/amizaduszki2k6/DSC01922.JPG
http://tdolphin.org/amikrak/amizaduszki2k6/DSC01924.JPG
Heck, the webpages is still there:
http://www.elbox.com/faq_dragon.html
http://www.elbox.com/news_04_12_17.html
"On 27 July 2006 we had presentation of DRAGON 1200 for a Freescale Inc. representative who visited Elbox Computer. The DRAGON 1200-based system on presentation was fitted with the Radeon 9200 AGP graphic card, the Fast Ethernet network card, the Hi-Speed USB and TV tuner cards, all working under AmigaOS 3.9."
:p ;)
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OK, if having a *not* fully working prototype, and *not* having the thing publicly available means that something isn't to be consider vapor
You have to realize, every product ever goes through this phase.
All products have a period of time where they have working but not complete versions but aren't publically available yet..
Everything..
A product is vapor when it isn't going to be released...
That means that, while there are "questions" about if it will ever be released (assuming the company doesn't say "It's dead Jim"), people have to decide if it is vapor.
In commercial products, this is usually a relatively short timeframe, depending on the complexity of the product.
In these smaller run products, it's trickier still...
One of the main qualifiers for many people is progress..
If there is active news showing progress (albeit slow), most people won't consider it vapor.
Both Natami and FPGAArcade have shown progress recently, and as such are generally not considered vapor.
Now, you could say, as news was slow for a long time, that it was perfectly acceptable to claim Natami WAS vapor, and now is back in development (i.e. Duke 3D Forever)....
It did appear (from the outside) to be stalled, at least until we actually started seeing demo videos of the hardware and it actually working..
IMHO
desiv
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Not, it is a longest Amiga project, well the X1000 too. But from NatAmi we have pictures as the X1000.
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ok so when Natami is still not being sold outside Natami Team Members in 10 years time. It can then be considered vapourware lol.
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ok so when Natami is still not being sold outside Natami Team Members in 10 years time. It can then be considered vapourware lol.
I know you were being sarcastic, but of course.. ;-)
In fact, now that they have shown hardware and progress, I would think people would be seriously throwing around the vapor word if there isn't something in less than a year..
However, if it's just about being sold outside the team, I'm sure if you offered them enough money, they'd sell you a board now... :)
desiv
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However, if it's just about being sold outside the team, I'm sure if you offered them enough money, they'd sell you a board now... :)
desiv
If they had a use for a left middle-aged testicle I'd offer one up for a board. :lol:
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You are all too cynical. The Natami has existed for some time (since the first C-ONE prototype).
Bug fixes and feature creeap have realty added to the tine necessary to get this system up to the level it needs to be marketed to the general public.
if this board doesn't get released I'll eat my Mac
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Are you eating a normal sized big mac or super sized american one?
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Old C64 Tapes kick some bottom, 15 minutes of loading then the message that makes your day... LOAD ERROR ... :furious:
Now that's Retro entertainment... :D
HAHHHAAAHHHAAAHAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
:rofl:
That's so funny I nearly puked! I really, nearly, did!
So true!
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I'll believe it when I can touch it.. :evil:
(Can't touch this.. prototype)
As for floppies, use flashcard replacement. It can even exploit the same physical format.
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I'm not a fan of "that guys daughter". Every time i see it i get the impression they are taking the piss out of me :lol:
Ya... she should die.
She's too young to touch a new Amiga before us seasoned veterens. It's just wrong!!!
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(Can't touch this.. prototype)
Was I the only one who just had an M.C. Hammer flashback???
:)
desiv
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No, I have a M.C. Hammer Flashback every second of every day of my life.
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I myself am heavily dependent upon floppies, not just because I use a lot of older computers, but also because I need them to operate a lot of my older music equipment. Therefore I am very happy that the Natami will support a floppy drive, so I can use it to hack old obscure sampler disk formats etc.
And do not come tell me "lol change ur synths and samplers lol" because there are no modern replacements providing the very same functions and sound.
http://jimatwood.wordpress.com/2011/04/23/sd-card-hxc-floppy-emulator-for-roland-w-30-s-330-samplers/
hxc floppy works on roland samplers too if you ever want to come to present time before your disc fails on you
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(http://jimatwood.wordpress.com/2011/04/23/sd-card-hxc-floppy-emulator-for-roland-w-30-s-330-samplers/)...if you ever want to come to present time...
Personally, I have nothing against the present time.
I work there, and spend some of my evenings there infrequently..
Then I come home to the past.. :roflmao:
desiv
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http://jimatwood.wordpress.com/2011/04/23/sd-card-hxc-floppy-emulator-for-roland-w-30-s-330-samplers/
hxc floppy works on roland samplers too if you ever want to come to present time before your disc fails on you
Thank you, I am well aware of the project. That does not mean I am going to get 20+ of these and gut open a lot of hardware that works perfectly fine in the near future.