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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Effy on December 22, 2003, 06:54:00 PM
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I have got a real A4000D with standard 68040/25. I wanna add Ram but don´ t want to spend lotsa money on a Cyberstorm yet. I am currently bidding on a Fastlane Z3 with 30 pins Simms. Isn´t there a card that accepts 72 pins Simms ??? Is the only real option a turboboard ??? I know plenty of my A1200 but as the title says, there´s still a gap in my knowledge about the A4000 ...
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Well if you can't afford a cyberstorm, then you'd better just plug in the 16MB you can fit on the mobo and start saving for a fast slot card that takes ram onboard.
The mobo ram and ZorroIII ram are slowwww, best not invest in that (if you can call it an investment) but hold onto the money for a greater goal. :-)
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@Effy:
If you want to add ram via the ZorroIII-bus using 72-pin SIMMs, there is the DKB 3128 (http://www.amiga-hardware.com/dkb3128.html) card which can take up to 128MB.
(edit): Though I have heard rumours of these card being quite pricey, so an accelerator with local ram might give you more bang for the buck.
/Patrik
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@TjLaZah
Mixing pure fastram with slow fastram on motherboard and z3 just to go from 128Mb to 272Mb must meen you got a huge demand for memory but not for speed? :-?
I sure wouldn't trade my 128Mb of fast fastram for anything more that wasn't just as fast or faster! :-D
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@Effy
Save the money for a CPU board that take memory, even if it's just another 040/25 board it'll be much better than the "3640 & fastram on motherboard" combo.
I've seen the price of A4000 CPU boards plumit the last year so if you're lucky you might get a 060 card for less than you think (I see them quite regulary go for as little as 110€ + p&p now that many are uppgrading to PPC for OS4 but even PPC boards can be found for as little as 200€ + p&p with ppl going over to A1). :-D
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Patrik : thanx for the link, I found one line at the bottom that took me by surprise : " Memory on the DKB 3128 is not as fast as motherboard memory in the A4000, about 80% of normal A4000 memory speed according to AIBB. " ... I really thought it would be way faster than the 16 Mb I have now on board ... I must agree guys, it seems that an accellerator is the only option ...
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Found this Progressive Peripherals 68040 for A3000 (http://cgi.benl.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2774407250&category=4598) on Ebay for 51 USD and still two days to go, but it also uses 32 pin Simms ... and there is still that Fastlane Z3 (http://cgi.benl.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2773309732&category=8142) for 35 euro that lasts an hour on Ebay ...
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The Progressive 040 in my 2000 can only take up to 32MBRAM, not sure about 3000 version :\
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The ProgressivePeripherals for the A3000 is quite a collectors item. Besides it wouldn`t fit physically in an A4000 (unless you take out the doughteboard) the state of being a rare card will surely make it`s price go way over it`s actual worth (maybe even more then a 060er card would cost you).
Tha Fastlane is the same in terms of RAM-speed as the DKB3128. It`s the Zorrobus that is holding down the speed. But this is only natural; every board ever made, if it is an Amiga, PC or MAC has faster access to it`s RAM then to the ISA- ZORRO- PCI- NU-bus.
Of course the the Fastlane will go way cheaper then the DKB3128 but don`t expect any speedgains from it either.
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Hi,
Only memory on an accell card will be as fast as that card. All other will be only as fast as the bus speed, slow on Zorro.
Keep as much off the bus as possable. Speed on.
Chris
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If your A4k came with a GVP-HC+8 card, you could always populate that... Gives you an extra 8M expansion memory. Not exactly a speed enhancer, but hey.
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Hi,
Hmm, bus speed, this also applies to HD response. If the HD controller is on "the bus" it will also be limited to bandwidth of the bus.
It's good to keep that on an accel card also.
Chris
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Now that you keep hitting on the bus-problem, what's the use of an expensive Powerflyer IDE controller then if the bus speed slows a lot down :-?
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Hi Effy,
The way I look at the Amiga is BIG & small things. The bus is limited but, workable. Bus load should be prioritised to... Graphics card, there's a lot, sound, I/O Goodies.. ethernet, USB etc.
Just try to logic a priority. The less you have working the bus at the same time, the better.
Chris
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Hi,
Didn't quit answer the the whole thing. Unfortunatly accels only come in one flavor, SCSI. Rather expesive but,
they can read and write simultaniously and with DMA at turbo card speed your jaw will drop.
Chris
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Now that you keep hitting on the bus-problem, what's the use of an expensive Powerflyer IDE controller then if the bus speed slows a lot down
IDE on the amiga is way slower then the ZIII Bus of the A3/4000. Theoretically ZIII can achieve 25 MB/s, practically it is more down to 12-15 MB/s. For common IDE controllers in an Amiga 3.5 MB/s is a good rate while haveing nearly 100% CPU-Load. The Powerflyer (I assume it`t the same as the Fast ATA4000) can lift this rate by useing a higher PIO mode wich can transfer more data per CPU-cycle. While the CPU will still be near 100% usage you could get around 6-7 MB/s max.
You see when it comes to IDE the CPU is the bottleneck. With a decent SCSI-Controller like the SCSI-Module for the CS MKII or the Fastlane you can easyly get 7 MB/s in syncronus mode while haveing a CPU-load of only 20% max.
SCSI-controllers on ZII cards are in fact slowed down by the bus specification since ZII could only transfer 3.5 MB/s at best (never seen a HD go this fast on a ZII SCSI) but the CPU load is still low (as long as the card supports DMA)
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If Zorro3 is backwards compatible with Zorro2, then why does Elbox design a Powerflyer (FastATAcontroller) for Zorro3 while there are other Zorro2 ide controllers on the market :-?
I am also thinking about getting a fast ide controller but when I read your comments about pushing the cpu to 100% then it suddenly doesn't look so attractive anymore. Seems better to get a scsi controller and an ide-to-scsi adapter and hook up a 40 Gb ide harddisc to that ...
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If Zorro3 is backwards compatible with Zorro2, then why does Elbox design a Powerflyer (FastATAcontroller) for Zorro3 while there are other Zorro2 ide controllers on the market
Thats because ZorroII cards (16bit) can only handle 3.5 MB/s maximum. that won`t change if you stuck it into a ZorroIII Bus (32bit). If you want to go over those 3.5 MB/s you have to change the carddesign over to Zorro III. But ZorroIII design is more expensive then ZII, so you see it in the endprice.
I am also thinking about getting a fast ide controller but when I read your comments about pushing the cpu to 100% then it suddenly doesn't look so attractive anymore
The IDE protocoll is just plain dump (though it got a little smarten with increasing PIO Mode) it relies on the CPU to tell the controller where to put every byte from RAM to disk or the other way round.
SCSI on the other hand is a lot smarter,the CPU only tells the controller move those files fom A to B and tell me when it`s done (no pun intended ;-) ).
This is the reason why SCSI is allway a lot more expensive then IDE, it needs a lotmore logic especially on the drives itselve.
Since modern CPUs only shrug their shoulders at the extraload that is thrown at them from the IDE controller and IDE component are a lot cheaper SCSI practically vanished from the consumer market and is now mainly found on servers where still every CPU cycle counts especially when there are lots of drives to work.
For Amiga with it`s weak CPU SCSI is a must. The onyl reason for useing IDE on the Amiga would be that you don`t have the money (cables an terminators cost extra too)
Seems better to get a scsi controller and an ide-to-scsi adapter and hook up a 40 Gb ide harddisc to that...
This is definately a good investment as SCSI-drives usually cost twice as much as IDE-drives, especially when you want big ones. If you want to upgrade your HD you could allways recycle the adapter. I got two of them an never regreted it, low CPU-load and fast transferrates (though not as fast as as straigh SCSI-drive, but 7 MB/s easily).
You only have to see that the Adapter makes good contakt to the drive, I affixed mine with tape and folded papaer as a spacer.
When the Adapter breaks down you data won`t be lost, as you can then just hook it up to an IDE controller and go.
One last Warning, it isn`t all gold that is SCSI on the Amiga, there are some old SCSI controllers that don`t support DMA, so the CPU has to do the work again.
So if you want to get a SCSI-controler make sure it supports DMA, this is per se true for all P5 modells, single and on turboboards.
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Thanx for the detailed info. I saw a Fastlane Z3 going on Ebay a few days ago for 51 euro, including a few mb's of 32 pins Simm's. Maybe it is better if I search for a cheap 68040 turboboard where I can put EDO's on to start with, and if possible also with a real scsi controller ...
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A PCU card with SCSI and memory will always be the best choise if you can afford it. :-)
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I´m now bidding on a whole A4000 system with a Warpengine 040/40 mhz with 4 72 pins Simm modules, but with no scsi on board. But then I can still get myself a beefy Poyerflyer 4000 from Elbox ... even if that puts a heavy load on the processor ...
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And I still keep an eye on this 68060 MK II (http://cgi.benl.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2774179328&category=8142&rd=1) on Ebay ... but there does not seem to be a scsi controller added ...
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@Brian
Well yes the Z3 RAM and MB RAM are slower but are at a lower priority. So my FAAST GVP 32-bit RAM is used first. If that runs out then the other mem is used. I really don't use the memory I just like having all that RAM ;)