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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: Darrin on May 02, 2011, 02:49:19 AM

Title: Amiga workbench
Post by: Darrin on May 02, 2011, 02:49:19 AM
I was just thinking to myself how silly it is that people who create patched Workbench installs or even Emergency Install disks cannot actually include the Workbench files and you have to run a program to copy files from your own Workbench disks.

When I think back to early days of the Amiga, most software on floppies actually contained Workbench (or at least a cut-down version of it) and when you inserted the disk you booted to Workbench and then ran the program by double clicking on it.  Software like Pen Pal and GFA Basic had pretty much everything you needed (Prefs, fonts, etc) included on the disks.

So, were these software companies paying Commodore to include Workbench on their floppies or didn't Commodore care and just expected people to use Workbench as necessary to get their software onto the market to increase the user-base?

If this was the case, when did it start becoming "naughty" to include Workbench files on your own disks?
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: runequester on May 02, 2011, 02:51:47 AM
I could be talking out of my rear but aren't some of those basic functions contained in the ROM's too ?
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: commodorejohn on May 02, 2011, 02:57:11 AM
Quote from: runequester;634779
I could be talking out of my rear but aren't some of those basic functions contained in the ROM's too ?
Most of the OS libraries are included in the ROMs - I think the software on the disk is just miscellaneous tools, the file manager, and the CLI.
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: DaBest on May 02, 2011, 02:59:55 AM
One has to wonder at the question. Maybe it's a little bit of both. To have these disks self bootable they had to have some workbench files I would assume.
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: Franko on May 02, 2011, 03:05:40 AM
Nah... on OS1.3 and 2.x as far as I remember basic functions like Dir, Copy etc... were on the floppy and not in the ROMS... :)

Darrins right, tons of commercial software came with such files (ie:part of WorkBench including libraries) on them and no-one ever complained back then even when Commodore was still alive. I think these days it's just down to armchair copyright lawyer wannabes trying to find something to moan about... ;)

Look's like this thread could be another long drawn out affair on the subject of copyright so methinks I'll just bow out now and say... I don't care anymore... :)
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: Darrin on May 02, 2011, 03:36:31 AM
Quote from: Franko;634785
Nah... on OS1.3 and 2.x as far as I remember basic functions like Dir, Copy etc... were on the floppy and not in the ROMS... :)

Darrins right, tons of commercial software came with such files (ie:part of WorkBench including libraries) on them and no-one ever complained back then even when Commodore was still alive. I think these days it's just down to armchair copyright lawyer wannabes trying to find something to moan about... ;)

Look's like this thread could be another long drawn out affair on the subject of copyright so methinks I'll just bow out now and say... I don't care anymore... :)


That's my thoughts exactly.  I owned several disks that booted into what appeared to be WB1.3, but how did the distributer know that you owned your own copy of WB1.3 and that your Amiga didn't come with WB1.2?  If your machine did come with WB1.2 then should you be able to run the software?!  :eek:

Now, I remember KS2.x ROMS being sold with WB2.x (I upgraded my A2000 that way), but if someone like Bloodwych makes a Classic Workbench 3.x distro then it is bloody obvious to everybody that the only people who are going to download and install it already have KS3.x ROMS and almost guaranteed to have the Workbench 3.x disks.

I understand that OS3.5 and OS3.9 are products made by a another company and are still being sold (new old stock?), but why the hell can't the files on WB3.0 or WB3.1 just be handed out for free?

Let's face it, we should be able to release our own Workbench 3.2 set of disks that allows people to install a modern Workbench onto a hard drive as simply as installing WB3.1.
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: mongo on May 02, 2011, 03:48:27 AM
Quote

   Workbench and Includes Licenses

Developers who wish to distribute files/commands from Workbench
or C/Asm Include files on their commercial product MUST have
a license to do so.  Distribution of the items in PD or freely
redistributable form is not allowed.  Licenses may be requested
through your local Amiga support organization, or through
CATS - Licenses, 1200 Wilson Drive, West Chester, PA., 19380.
Licenses are available for Workbench 1.3, Workbench 2.0, Includes
1.3, and Includes 2.0.  Be sure to specify which license(s) you
require and include your full PAPER MAIL address including country.
Licensing generally costs $100/year for workbench, $25/year for
Includes/Libs.


http://ftp.back2roots.org/padua/text/CATS-Materials
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: Iggy on May 02, 2011, 03:53:24 AM
Quote from: Darrin;634792
That's my thoughts exactly.  I owned several disks that booted into what appeared to be WB1.3, but how did the distributer know that you owned your own copy of WB1.3 and that your Amiga didn't come with WB1.2?  If your machine did come with WB1.2 then should you be able to run the software?!  :eek:

Now, I remember KS2.x ROMS being sold with WB2.x (I upgraded my A2000 that way), but if someone like Bloodwych makes a Classic Workbench 3.x distro then it is bloody obvious to everybody that the only people who are going to download and install it already have KS3.x ROMS and almost guaranteed to have the Workbench 3.x disks.

I understand that OS3.5 and OS3.9 are products made by a another company and are still being sold (new old stock?), but why the hell can't the files on WB3.0 or WB3.1 just be handed out for free?

Let's face it, we should be able to release our own Workbench 3.2 set of disks that allows people to install a modern Workbench onto a hard drive as simply as installing WB3.1.

Come on Darrin, you already know the reason. AInc claims to be to owner of OS3.1 and both AInc and Hyperion claim that only Hyperion is licensed to create derivatives of it (so no 3.2).
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: Darrin on May 02, 2011, 04:05:26 AM
Quote from: mongo;634793
http://ftp.back2roots.org/padua/text/CATS-Materials


Interesting.  So if we all chip in and raise $100 we can distribute as many OS3.2 disks as we like as long as we include some tiny program on it and claim to be distrubuting the program, rather than Workbench?

Seems like a winner!  :)
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: Darrin on May 02, 2011, 04:06:34 AM
Quote from: Iggy;634794
Come on Darrin, you already know the reason. AInc claims to be to owner of OS3.1 and both AInc and Hyperion claim that only Hyperion is licensed to create derivatives of it (so no 3.2).


I thought Hyperion's license was for Next Gen OS4.x and not revamped Classic Workbench running on 680x0 machines.
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: lsmart on May 02, 2011, 05:41:25 AM
Quote from: Darrin;634777

So, were these software companies paying Commodore to include Workbench on their floppies or didn't Commodore care and just expected people to use Workbench as necessary to get their software onto the market to increase the user-base?


I don´t know about big commercial products, but with smaller Public Domain disks Commodore deliberately didn´t object to the inclusion of Workbench files. They wern´t that silly. Besides everyone already owned Workbench, since it came with the computer that software was running on.

Quote from: Darrin;634777

If this was the case, when did it start becoming "naughty" to include Workbench files on your own disks?


It is a different world today. AOS was never designed to run on a non Commodore licensed emulator. And there is a difference  you start your own program from WB versus having WB on the disk and a few nameless PD tools.
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: psxphill on May 02, 2011, 09:46:54 AM
Quote from: Darrin;634796
Interesting. So if we all chip in and raise $100 we can distribute as many OS3.2 disks as we like as long as we include some tiny program on it and claim to be distrubuting the program, rather than Workbench?
 
Seems like a winner! :)

The $100 offer obviously isn't available anymore. However everyone would need to have kickstart 3.1 anyway. Users could pirate kickstart, but then they may as well pirate the workbench as well.
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: Kesa on May 02, 2011, 10:12:28 AM
Quote from: psxphill;634828
The $100 offer obviously isn't available anymore. However everyone would need to have kickstart 3.1 anyway. Users could pirate kickstart, but then they may as well pirate the workbench as well.


Why not pirate workbench? I'm normally against any kind of piracy unless it is warranted. No one actually owns workbench and as far as i'm concerned it is open (free?) source software. If they wanted to clamp down on it i doubt they could actually do anything about it anyway :)

So go ahead and help yourself! :)
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: commodorejohn on May 02, 2011, 03:34:06 PM
Yeah, basically. The hell with the Amiga legal shenanigans, I'll just pirate.
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: vidarh on May 02, 2011, 04:53:31 PM
Quote from: Darrin;634777

When I think back to early days of the Amiga, most software on floppies actually contained Workbench (or at least a cut-down version of it)


Workbench was/is in kickstart. The only thing that's absolutely needed to start Workbench from a floppy is C:loadwb + a very basic startup sequence to call it.
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: lsmart on May 02, 2011, 08:35:45 PM
Quote from: commodorejohn;634878
Yeah, basically. The hell with the Amiga legal shenanigans, I'll just pirate.

So this is it? Amiga.org has become a forum for thiefs and naysayers?
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: paul1981 on May 02, 2011, 08:39:03 PM
This actually takes me back to the 90's and I'm thinking of CUCD's and AFCD's (Amiga Format & CU Amiga).  They were bootable and contained Workbench in its entirety from what I can remember.  From memory, you could create a whole Workbech 3.1 system if you wanted to...and that's one way I upgraded my Workbench files - I just copied later versions of libraries and other system files from CU Cd's over to my 3.0 system to upgrade it.  I'm sure I wasn't alone in doing that.
I wonder if those magazines had to foot the bill to do this?  After all, CBM was history and it was Escom, then GW2000.  If it was only $100 per year back in 1992, I think that would make it $200 x 12 months probably for a new release each month back in mid-late 90's of the cover cd's.  Still peanuts though for what it is, I mean they gave away Workbench3.1 every month!
It would be interesting to know what indeed those magazines had to pay for the license.  If anything, because if you think about it - there was never a need to have a bootable cd, let alone including Workbench3.1...
Yes, there were CD32 owners, but serious users would have bought a computer with a keyboard if they wanted to use utilities and the like from magazine cover cd's.
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: commodorejohn on May 02, 2011, 08:56:57 PM
Quote from: lsmart;634931
So this is it? Amiga.org has become a forum for thiefs and naysayers?
Yeah, pretty much. It's not like the money would be going to the people who actually made OS3.1, anyway.
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: nicholas on May 02, 2011, 09:06:25 PM
Quote from: lsmart;634931
So this is it? Amiga.org has become a forum for thiefs and naysayers?


What can you do about it?
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: Franko on May 02, 2011, 09:12:44 PM
Quote from: lsmart;634931
So this is it? Amiga.org has become a forum for thiefs and naysayers?


Well it is an Amiga site and by default nearly 25 years of thieves and naysayers (being the Amiga way of things) it hasn't "become" it always has been and it's only that you've just noticed it... :)
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: Franko on May 02, 2011, 09:16:33 PM
Quote from: paul1981;634932
This actually takes me back to the 90's and I'm thinking of CUCD's and AFCD's (Amiga Format & CU Amiga).  They were bootable and contained Workbench in its entirety from what I can remember.  From memory, you could create a whole Workbech 3.1 system if you wanted to...and that's one way I upgraded my Workbench files - I just copied later versions of libraries and other system files from CU Cd's over to my 3.0 system to upgrade it.  I'm sure I wasn't alone in doing that.
I wonder if those magazines had to foot the bill to do this?


It states quite clearly on the old AF & CU CDs that the Workbench sets on them were only there under licence... :)
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: whabang on May 02, 2011, 09:20:38 PM
Quote from: lsmart;634931
So this is it? Amiga.org has become a forum for thiefs and naysayers?


I find it funny how the Coffee house-section is filled with all kinds of controversial statements, and how people still get offended whenever they encounter someone who openly admits pirating software.

To get back on topic, yes, you can load Workbench straight off a floppy, using nothing but an AmigaDOS prompt as long as you're using 3.1 (can't remember how it was in the old days, but that's irrelevant) or higher. The problem is that you will lack quite a few basic utilities, but I assume that can be solved with third-party software.

It would be interesting to see how far one can get using nothing but open-source and freeware/PD. I might actually give it a try, just for the challenge. :)
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: Darrin on May 02, 2011, 11:25:00 PM
Quote from: paul1981;634932
This actually takes me back to the 90's and I'm thinking of CUCD's and AFCD's (Amiga Format & CU Amiga).  They were bootable and contained Workbench in its entirety from what I can remember.  From memory, you could create a whole Workbech 3.1 system if you wanted to...and that's one way I upgraded my Workbench files - I just copied later versions of libraries and other system files from CU Cd's over to my 3.0 system to upgrade it.  I'm sure I wasn't alone in doing that.
I wonder if those magazines had to foot the bill to do this?  After all, CBM was history and it was Escom, then GW2000.  If it was only $100 per year back in 1992, I think that would make it $200 x 12 months probably for a new release each month back in mid-late 90's of the cover cd's.  Still peanuts though for what it is, I mean they gave away Workbench3.1 every month!
It would be interesting to know what indeed those magazines had to pay for the license.  If anything, because if you think about it - there was never a need to have a bootable cd, let alone including Workbench3.1...
Yes, there were CD32 owners, but serious users would have bought a computer with a keyboard if they wanted to use utilities and the like from magazine cover cd's.


Damn, I forgot about those cover CDs.  You're quite right that effectively WB3.1 was being handed out every month at the newsagent to anyone who bought a cheap computer magazine.  You didn't even need to own an Amiga.

I'm pretty sure some magazines even included "Relokick" (I think that is what is was called) which means they were effectively giving away Kickstart 1.3 too.  :)
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: Gulliver on May 03, 2011, 01:40:08 AM
My 2 cents:

If you just take a peek at the last two or three Amiga Format coverdisk CD-Roms, you will find a fully legal set of Workbench 3.0 floppy images, authorized by uncle Petro for free distribution and use.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from Amiga Format CD #51:  AFCD51/+System+/Tools/Workbench/Workbench 3.x/AF_Readme

Here are the DMS archives for the complete Workbench 3.0, in case you haven't
got an install disk, or you corrupt your originals. We can't put later versions
on because we'd need a licence to do so, but Petro Tyschtschenko has given us
permission to include this version of AmigaOS on all AFCDs from now on.

To extract the files, simply have a stack of six disks at the ready for
insertion into df0: (or whichever drive you've set up in AFCDPrefs) and then
double click on the DMS archive icons.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Files on Amiga Format CD #51:  AFCD51/+System+/Tools/Workbench/Workbench 3.x/

Install.dms
Workbench.dms
Locale.dms
Fonts.dms
Extras.dms
Storage.dms
OS3.1_BoingBag1.lzx
AF_Readme
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: Darrin on May 03, 2011, 03:01:51 AM
Quote from: Gulliver;635004
My 2 cents:

If you just take a peek at the last two or three Amiga Format coverdisk CD-Roms, you will find a fully legal set of Workbench 3.0 floppy images, authorized by uncle Petro for free distribution and use.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from Amiga Format CD #51:  AFCD51/+System+/Tools/Workbench/Workbench 3.x/AF_Readme

Here are the DMS archives for the complete Workbench 3.0, in case you haven't
got an install disk, or you corrupt your originals. We can't put later versions
on because we'd need a licence to do so, but Petro Tyschtschenko has given us
permission to include this version of AmigaOS on all AFCDs from now on.

To extract the files, simply have a stack of six disks at the ready for
insertion into df0: (or whichever drive you've set up in AFCDPrefs) and then
double click on the DMS archive icons.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Files on Amiga Format CD #51:  AFCD51/+System+/Tools/Workbench/Workbench 3.x/

Install.dms
Workbench.dms
Locale.dms
Fonts.dms
Extras.dms
Storage.dms
OS3.1_BoingBag1.lzx
AF_Readme


Holy crap!  So Petro actually gave OS 3.0 to the Amiga community!  What a guy!
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: Franko on May 03, 2011, 03:26:08 AM
Quote from: Darrin;635010
Holy crap!  So Petro actually gave OS 3.0 to the Amiga community!  What a guy!


That's one of the reasons I don't get what the copyright mafia on this site rattle their gums about, they seem to conveniently forget about things like the old AF Coverdisk CDs where the stuff was released free into the wild many moons ago.. ;)

Methinks they just like a good moan even more than me... :)
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: Bamiga2002 on May 03, 2011, 08:46:05 AM
Quote from: Gulliver;635004
...OS3.1_BoingBag1.lzx...
Would that be a pack that updates WB3.0 to WB3.1 perhaps? That would mean there is a free WB 3.1 available *legally* ...
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: Gulliver on May 03, 2011, 09:03:07 AM
Quote from: Bamiga2002;635033
Would that be a pack that updates WB3.0 to WB3.1 perhaps? That would mean there is a free WB 3.1 available *legally* ...

From what I remember, it was a wrongly named AmigaOS 3.5 BoingBag 1 archive
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: gertsy on May 03, 2011, 02:09:12 PM
Workbench is free?  
Wow does that mean from now on I don't have to buy Workbench 3.1 online from the myriad of suppliers out there...

I own 4 Amiga computers with 3.1 Roms in them. I only have 2 copies of WB3.1 disks. I've been duded....

PS: Multiple programs and utilities used their own cutdown workbench disks, complete with OS Folders.  Maybe they had a license to do so.  Who knows.
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: PanterHZ on May 05, 2011, 02:40:23 AM
Quote from: Darrin;634777
I was just thinking to myself how silly it is that  people who create patched Workbench installs or even Emergency Install  disks cannot actually include the Workbench files and you have to run a  program to copy files from your own Workbench disks.

I seem to remember that one of the patched Workbench packages actually  did include all WB files at one point, but that the author had to remove  them after being told to do so.
But it is my impression that it's OK to include some WB files as long as  the main system files are not included, and this is the reason why  ClassicWB only requires the Workbench disk for example.

When creating my program Amiga911 Maker, I just simply decided to follow  the trend and do what others have done in the past regarding the  Workbench files. One might say that I went a step further since the  Extras & Install disks might be required for making a boot disk as  well, but this was my attempt to make the Amiga911 Maker distribution  somewhat Aminet friendly. But since the current version of my program  still includes some WB files (icons, keymaps, PAL & NTSC drivers and  the topaz font), it still meant that it couldn't be hosted on Aminet  (who are VERY strict when it comes to WB files in the uploads).

That being said, my program will look for Workbench3.0: or  Workbench3.1:, and if neither of them exists, the user will be  instructed to insert one of them. The thing is that this doesn't  necessarily have to be a Workbench floppy in DF0:, it can  actually be any drive with a volume bearing that name, and it can also  be an assign. As a matter of fact, in the process of creating A911  Maker, I had to do a lot of test copying from my WB disks to ensure  everything was working like it should. But to make things easier, I  simply copied all disks to my harddisk (by using drag & drop), and  created a small script with the following lines that I use for copy  testing:

Assign Workbench3.1: Work:WB3.1/Workbench3.1
Assign Extras3.1: Work:WB3.1/Extras3.1
Assign Install3.1: Work:WB3.1/Install3.1


For those who are using my program, there is even an easier way to do things that might work. Assuming your boot partition is called Workbench, just open a Shell and enter the following:

Assign Workbench3.1: Workbench:
 Assign Extras3.1: Workbench:
 Assign Install3.1: Workbench:

This way, you shouldn't have to insert any WB disks at all :)

(OK, I'll admit it, this last bit is probably a bit off-topic).
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: Gulliver on May 05, 2011, 03:12:07 AM
Another thing to notice:

Historically speaking, whenever you bought a real Amiga, it ALWAYS came with a set of AmigaOS floppies, maybe not the latest ones corresponding to that specific kickstart though. The point is, that Amigas were always sold with its OS, so if you have a real Amiga, you are always entitled to legally obtain its corresponding AmigaOS disk set without paying any royalties whatsoever for that specific machine. Unless, of course, you wanted the copying service, and nicely labeled floppies, from withing CBM/Escom and then you had to pay for that, but that its obvious.

Furthermore, if you see it from another perspective, whenever you acquired legit Amiga kickstart roms and or complete systems you always had the core/kernel of the AmigaOS built inside those roms. So in the end, this way, you were/are always entitled to freely and legally obtain its corresponding distribution media.
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: TheGoose on May 05, 2011, 03:14:26 AM
Quote from: Franko;635012
That's one of the reasons I don't get what the copyright mafia on this site rattle their gums about, they seem to conveniently forget about things like the old AF Coverdisk CDs where the stuff was released free into the wild many moons ago.. ;)

Methinks they just like a good moan even more than me... :)

They're stupid and obsequious.

Nobody's gonna give a rats ass. Really, it's 2011. People actually fear being personally prosecuted by "companies" cough? ; that would themselves, have trouble explaining what they own.

Amiga/WB is a big CF and I don't mean compact flash.
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: PanterHZ on May 05, 2011, 03:36:47 AM
Quote from: vidarh;634890
Workbench was/is in kickstart. The only thing that's absolutely needed to start Workbench from a floppy is C:loadwb + a very basic startup sequence to call it.

And then you will have a Workbench that will allow you to open folders and click on icons + you can copy files by using drag & drop. And that's basically it really. When ever you try to run third-party software, you will most likely get complaints about missing libraries and stuff. For using the Shell, just type resident to get a list over the few internal commands that are at your disposal.

Quote from: whabang;634949
To get back on topic, yes, you can load Workbench straight off a floppy, using nothing but an AmigaDOS prompt as long as you're using 3.1 (can't remember how it was in the old days, but that's irrelevant) or higher. The problem is that you will lack quite a few basic utilities, but I assume that can be solved with third-party software.

It would be interesting to see how far one can get using nothing but open-source and freeware/PD. I might actually give it a try, just for the challenge. :)

I don't think there exists a freeware alternative to the LoadWB command, so that rules out Workbench. But there is a free command line alternative called ZShell which has the most basic CLI commands built in, it isn't 100% AmigaDOS compatible though. I seem to remember that somebody already have created a boot disk that is based on ZShell.
Anyway, you can find it here: http://aminet.net/package/util/shell/ZShell


Quote from: Darrin;634980
I'm pretty sure some magazines even included "Relokick" (I think that is what is was called) which means they were effectively giving away Kickstart 1.3 too.  :)

Not entirely true. Relokick will only patch those parts of the kickstart that causes problems with old games (this actually means that a hybrid kickstart is used). Relokick is useless without there being a real 2.0 (or higher) kickstart present, and it can't be used directly as a kickstart ROM in (win)uae for example. But you are right, Relokick was given away for free on various magazine cover disks, and this was with the blessings from Commodore.
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: Darrin on May 05, 2011, 03:57:22 AM
@PanterHZ

Interesting stuff.  Thanks.

Now, here's a question for CLOANTO if they're readying this thread.  Why not update their distributions and include the following and make everyone happy (and boost their sales):

#1:  An easy way to use Amiga Explorer to transfer a version of the WB3.x environment from the PC to a real Amiga via a serial cable.

#2:  An easy way to make a boot floppy from an ADF that will allow a real Amiga to install their WB3.x environment from their CD.

#3:  HDF images of their WB3.x environment which can be used on UAE and also happen to work on FPGA type "Amigas" such as the FPGA Arcade or a 68000 friendly version for the Minimig v1.1.

If we had something like that then nobody would need pirate disks and they could use Amiga Forever on real Amigas with ease.

Come on Cloanto, can you do it and if not, why not?
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: Gulliver on May 05, 2011, 04:03:27 AM
Quote from: PanterHZ;635573
I don't think there exists a freeware alternative to the LoadWB command, so that rules out Workbench. But there is a free command line alternative called ZShell which has the most basic CLI commands built in, it isn't 100% AmigaDOS compatible though. I seem to remember that somebody already have created a boot disk that is based on ZShell.
Anyway, you can find it here: http://aminet.net/package/util/shell/ZShell
.

You are wrong :)
This is a freeware loadwb command, you even have the sourcecode of it and it works great. http://aminet.net/util/sys/MSys-1.2.lha

BTW, I already built sometime ago a kind of "FreeWBench" with free alternatives. If interested, I will search for it in my stack of backup floppies and upload it.
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: Franko on May 05, 2011, 04:08:01 AM
Quote from: PanterHZ;635573
Not entirely true. Relokick will only patch those parts of the kickstart that causes problems with old games (this actually means that a hybrid kickstart is used). Relokick is useless without there being a real 2.0 (or higher) kickstart present, and it can't be used directly as a kickstart ROM in (win)uae for example. But you are right, Relokick was given away for free on various magazine cover disks, and this was with the blessings from Commodore.


Hmm... odd I use ReloKick1.3 quite often but not with the ROM image that came with it on the CUAmiga coverdisk CD but with a real 1.3 ROM image captured using GrabKick... :)

Perhaps your talking about ReloKick1.4 which came with a modified 1.3 ROM Image file... :confused:
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: vidarh on May 05, 2011, 09:14:00 AM
Quote from: Darrin;635575

Come on Cloanto, can you do it and if not, why not?


My guess would be time/money. I don't know if you've read the interview in the latest Amiga Future, but they imply that their business development is in effect subsidizing their AmigaForever development, which wouldn't exactly surprise me.
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: whabang on May 05, 2011, 01:49:03 PM
Quote from: PanterHZ;635573
I don't think there exists a freeware alternative to the LoadWB command, so that rules out Workbench.
Oh, I thought the LoadWB command was ROM'ed in the later versions. Ah well, my bad!
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: Bamiga2002 on May 05, 2011, 02:23:33 PM
Quote from: whabang;635634
Oh, I thought the LoadWB command was ROM'ed in the later versions. Ah well, my bad!
Nice idea for a development move would be to ROM it :)
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: freqmax on May 05, 2011, 03:07:44 PM
Free = AROS ;)
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: kolla on May 05, 2011, 03:44:40 PM
Pointless to have LoadWB in ROM, workbench.library itself has alse been moved out from ROM since it has grown and there are much more vital stuff that needs to be there. But go ahead, you can create your own ROMs now :)
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: AmigaHeretic on May 05, 2011, 04:06:28 PM
Quote from: Darrin;635575
@PanterHZ

Interesting stuff.  Thanks.

Now, here's a question for CLOANTO if they're readying this thread.  Why not update their distributions and include the following and make everyone happy (and boost their sales):

#1:  An easy way to use Amiga Explorer to transfer a version of the WB3.x environment from the PC to a real Amiga via a serial cable.



Come on Cloanto, can you do it and if not, why not?



As you may have read in other threads by now, because they do not have a license.  The ROMs and Disks on Amiga Forever are only licensed to them for the emulator and not for hardware.

http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/13-145

That means all this time, people saying stop being cheap ass pirates and just buy Amiga Forever if you lost your disks and need to get new ones have been actually telling you to break the law.

Using Amiga Forever to get disks for your real Amiga is ILLEGAL.
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: Darrin on May 05, 2011, 04:12:53 PM
Quote from: vidarh;635610
My guess would be time/money. I don't know if you've read the interview in the latest Amiga Future, but they imply that their business development is in effect subsidizing their AmigaForever development, which wouldn't exactly surprise me.


I'll send them a CD with Bloodwych's ClassicWorkbench 68000 and Classic Workbench AGA already set up on HDF files and ready to run if they want.  All they need to do is include them on their next CD and write two configuration scripts called "Minimig v1.1" for an ECS Amiga with 3.5MB of RAM and a 68000 CPU, and "FPGA Aarcde" using a 68020.  That should take care of any legal issues.
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: Darrin on May 05, 2011, 04:15:18 PM
Quote from: AmigaHeretic;635680
As you may have read in other threads by now, because they do not have a license.  The ROMs and Disks on Amiga Forever are only licensed to them for the emulator and not for hardware.

http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/13-145

That means all this time, people saying stop being cheap ass pirates and just buy Amiga Forever if you lost your disks and need to get new ones have been actually telling you to break the law.

Using Amiga Forever to get disks for your real Amiga is ILLEGAL.


OK, but they can still have workable HDFs to be used by WinUAE configurations.  It wouldn't be their fault if they worked on real Amigas too.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but WinUAE actually emulates "real Amigas".  Cloanto's early stuff could be simply copied onto a hard drive and run.  Their WB3.x buggers things up because of the way they've configured it.
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: TheGoose on May 05, 2011, 04:43:52 PM
Quote from: kolla;635674
Pointless to have LoadWB in ROM, workbench.library itself has alse been moved out from ROM since it has grown and there are much more vital stuff that needs to be there. But go ahead, you can create your own ROMs now :)


Great, why hasn't someone put a youtube video on how to burn your own ePROMS, for Amigas?

Here's a starter script:

The easiest way to do this is....

You'll need:

Things to watch for are:

Let's get started, step 1:
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: desiv on May 05, 2011, 04:57:44 PM
Filling in:

The easiest way to do this is:  Have someone do this for you.

You'll need:  A friend who knows how to do it for you.

Things to watch for are: Make sure your friend isn't a copyright police type..

Let's get started, step 1:  Ask your friend to do it and buy him a beer..

Step 2:  WINNING!!

desiv
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: TheGoose on May 05, 2011, 05:39:51 PM
Quote from: desiv;635690
Filling in:

The easiest way to do this is:  Have someone do this for you.

You'll need:  A friend who knows how to do it for you.

Things to watch for are: Make sure your friend isn't a copyright police type..

Let's get started, step 1:  Ask your friend to do it and buy him a beer..

Step 2:  WINNING!!

desiv

LOL! That will ring true for me. Best tutorial ever!

EDIT: Well, this is kinda useful for dummies like me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBX0dHSUFbs
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: psxphill on May 05, 2011, 06:24:00 PM
Quote from: TheGoose;635693
EDIT: Well, this is kinda useful for dummies like me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBX0dHSUFbs

I can recommend the eprom programmer they use in the video.
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: PanterHZ on May 06, 2011, 11:03:59 PM
Quote from: Gulliver;635577
You are wrong :)
This is a freeware loadwb command, you even have the sourcecode of it and it works great. http://aminet.net/util/sys/MSys-1.2.lha

BTW, I already built sometime ago a kind of "FreeWBench" with free alternatives. If interested, I will search for it in my stack of backup floppies and upload it.

Wow! I didn't know that, but thanks for letting me know :)
And yes I would be really interested in that floppy of yours.


Quote from: Franko;635578
Hmm... odd I use ReloKick1.3 quite often but not with the ROM image that came with it on the CUAmiga coverdisk CD but with a real 1.3 ROM image captured using GrabKick... :)

Perhaps your talking about ReloKick1.4 which came with a modified 1.3 ROM Image file... :confused:

I do belive there is a misunderstanding here, what I meant with "hybrid" was not the actual ROM image on disk, but what you will be running after using Relokick. And yes I'm pretty sure that only parts of the kickstart gets patched, so in other words you will be running a ks 1.3/2.x hybrid :)
It makes sense really, because using the entire kickstart image might lead to 256 KB less RAM available which is no good on Amigas with only 1 MB RAM.

I belived this meant the ROM image supplied with Relokick was a reduced one, but after taking a quick peek at it with a hex viewer, it appears to be the full version. It won't work with winuae though (and yes I have tried this).

Quote from: whabang;635634
Oh, I thought the LoadWB command was ROM'ed in the later versions. Ah well, my bad!

Yes but I was wrong in thinking there wasn't a free version of the LoadWB command as well :)
Title: Re: Amiga workbench
Post by: PanterHZ on May 06, 2011, 11:09:23 PM
Quote from: desiv;635690
Filling in:

The easiest way to do this is:  Have someone do this for you.

You'll need:  A friend who knows how to do it for you.

Things to watch for are: Make sure your friend isn't a copyright police type..

Let's get started, step 1:  Ask your friend to do it and buy him a beer..

Step 2:  WINNING!!

desiv

Yes this is good tutorial which can be used for a lot of things, and in case Step 2 is FAILING, you will always have someone else to blame :laughing: