Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Iggy on April 26, 2011, 06:33:43 PM
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It recent threads here and ot AimgaWorld and MorphZone this question has been discussed,.
Are Amiga Inc's claim to ownership of AOS valid.
Franko has made an interesting point, when placed on the Web for download Kickstart and AOS files have not faced challenge.
Andeas Wolf has sent me the following references (via MorphZone) which I find revealing.
http://sites.google.com/site/freeamiga/#TOC-1997-1998%3Cimg%20src= (http://sites.google.com/site/freeamiga/#TOC-1997-1998%3Cimg%20src=)
http://moobunny.dreamhosters.com/cgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/169254.shtml
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=575947
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=588275
I, personally, am of the opinion that AInc claim is invalid (which would then make Hyperion's license invalid).
What do all of you think?
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I honestly don't believe A.Inc would be able to challenge or lay claim to anything other than purchasing the rights to use certain TradeMarks & Logos... ;)
There are countless sites out there where you can download KickStart ROM image files and WorkBench Disk sets, now you're not going to tell me that A.Inc doesn't know or at least has come across some of these sites... :)
If they or whomever had and they felt they could prove this in a court of law then I'm pretty sure they would have taken action long ago to shut down such sites. As no-one has then this just confirms my belief that no-one is either able or willing to challenge this in a court of law for the simple reason being that they know they could never prove ownership and all they could prove is the right to use certain Tradmarks & Logos... :)
Reckon after all these years of speculation and BS that this was finally challenged and put to rest one way or the other... :)
Side note: Everyone should start up a website and place the KickStart ROM Images & WorkBench Disk sets on them for free download, pretty sure not many will be challenged and any who are can simply ask for proof of ownership before having to shut down their site, best of all this can all be done for next to nothing... ;)
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Isn't there a new law passed in the USA that allow authorities to shut down any website guilty of hosting unauthorized copyrighted content? Don't you think anyone with legitimate claims to IP would use such a law?
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Isn't there a new law passed in the USA that allow authorities to shut down any website guilty of hosting unauthorized copyrighted content? Don't you think anyone with legitimate claims to IP would use such a law?
Wouldn't matter in the rest of world what laws the USA has passed, and even if there is such a law those claiming to own the IP would first have to prove that they did own it and somehow I don't think A.Inc would be in a position to do so... :)
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If they or whomever had and they felt they could prove this in a court of law then I'm pretty sure they would have taken action long ago to shut down such sites. As no-one has then this just confirms my belief that no-one is either able or willing to challenge this in a court of law for the simple reason being that they know they could never prove ownership and all they could prove is the right to use certain Tradmarks & Logos... :)
All Rights Reserved. In other words, we lay claim, we may pursue and at our leisure.
IP/Copyright law isn't worth a penny unless there is some merit and profit in pursing it, I have no doubt that infringement of Amiga Inc's rights are often not pursed, simply because there isn't any money in it.
If someone took any IP/copyrighted material and turned over a million dollar profit, I have no doubt a lawyer somewhere will plead to represent AINC in the matter for a nominal fee and the letters would land on the carpet of the offender.
Enforcement of and the Breaking of, the law is not as simple as it first sounds when applied in absentia of a victim.
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Isn't there a new law passed in the USA that allow authorities to shut down any website guilty of hosting unauthorized copyrighted content? Don't you think anyone with legitimate claims to IP would use such a law?
I believe Gary Peake was very pro active when it came to issuing cease and desist notices.
In answer to Iggy's question, I would say that Amiga Inc's claim to Amiga OS is valid until proven otherwise. To be honest I don't expect anyone to come forward and claim it is theirs, although this is Amiga so anything is possible.
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All Rights Reserved. In other words, we lay claim, we may pursue and at our leisure.
IP/Copyright law isn't worth a penny unless there is some merit and profit in pursing it, I have no doubt that infringement of Amiga Inc's rights are often not pursed, simply because there isn't any money in it.
If someone took any IP/copyrighted material and turned over a million dollar profit, I have no doubt a lawyer somewhere will plead to represent AINC in the matter for a nominal fee and the letters would land on the carpet of the offender.
Enforcement of and the Breaking of, the law is not as simple as it first sounds when applied in absentia of a victim.
Did anyone read those references?
It is entirely possible that Escom and Gateway did not have the right to sell the OS (if they ever did sell it) as it may not have been properly transferred to them in the first place.
Which could very well mean that only licensees that dealt with Commodore before bankruptcy have a legal claim to use AOS.
Further, if Escom, fgateway and Amiga Inc. have never been the legal owners of AOS, how long would be needed before it lapsed into public domain?
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Isn't there a new law passed in the USA that allow authorities to shut down any website guilty of hosting unauthorized copyrighted content? Don't you think anyone with legitimate claims to IP would use such a law?
I know of no such law. A property owner can try to obtain a cease and desist order and send e-mail or letters requesting the removal of material they object to.
What makes you think the US can control websites when they couldn't even challenge Wikileaks over classified material?
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Not that I really care too much, a large percentage of the remaining users have pretty much stripped my interest in Amiga in recent times, but I wonder what happened to stop Amiga Inc. stop persuing people illegally offering kickstart roms for download ? As anyone who has been around for a while will probably remember, a few years back they were heavily persuing people for doing it, and quite successfully at that. Now is such a stark contrast that I wonder if there's something behind the turnaround.
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Wouldn't matter in the rest of world what laws the USA has passed, and even if there is such a law those claiming to own the IP would first have to prove that they did own it and somehow I don't think A.Inc would be in a position to do so... :)
That law is being rushed through. If passed it allows MPAA/RIAA (maybe other orgs) to instantly remove a domain from the internet worldwide without a trial.
News about COICA
There are renewed efforts by senator Leahy to reintroduce the COICA bill this year, which will allow to censor on demand any website the entertainment industry of the United States dislike. Practices like this are common in countries like Iran or China, the difference here is that the site they choose to target will be censored in the whole world.
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Sod Hyperion, can we just find out if Cloanto are legal?
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Side note: Everyone should start up a website and place the KickStart ROM Images & WorkBench Disk sets on them for free download, pretty sure not many will be challenged and any who are can simply ask for proof of ownership before having to shut down their site, best of all this can all be done for next to nothing... ;)
I am pretty sure Commodore Amiga Iran will have your back in case the legal vultures come a knockin'.
Fight the man! Download all the kickstarts and WB disks right here, Free! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ)
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In answer to Iggy's question, I would say that Amiga Inc's claim to Amiga OS is valid until proven otherwise. To be honest I don't expect anyone to come forward and claim it is theirs, although this is Amiga so anything is possible.
I agree. I do know I don't own the Amiga IP and nobody has given me any rights concerning this IP either. That's what counts for me. I don't like the principle of doing things one can get away with.
cowardly yours,
Staf.
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I agree. I do know I don't own the Amiga IP and nobody has given me any rights concerning this IP either. That's what counts for me. I don't like the principle of doing things one can get away with.
cowardly yours,
Staf.
Well there's a start, we can rule Fats out of the ownership contention... ;)
@ Digiman
Still doesn't matter to the rest of the planet if this law is being made in the USA courts or even by the American government, the rest of the world has their own laws and governments so such a law could never be legally enforced by the USA unless other countries governments & lawmakers agree to it... ;)
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I, personally, am of the opinion that AInc claim is invalid (which would then make Hyperion's license invalid).
Than who do you think owns it?
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Not that I really care too much, a large percentage of the remaining users have pretty much stripped my interest in Amiga in recent times, but I wonder what happened to stop Amiga Inc. stop persuing people illegally offering kickstart roms for download ? As anyone who has been around for a while will probably remember, a few years back they were heavily persuing people for doing it, and quite successfully at that. Now is such a stark contrast that I wonder if there's something behind the turnaround.
Money! (lack of it)
Edit: If anyone were to make a substantial profit from the name "Amiga", it would be interesting to see who crawls out of the woodwork to make a claim against such profits. What a colossal FU this has become and what a great shame that the great work and inspiration that was created by the vision of Jay Miner and the group of people he put together to invent the original Amiga has been soiled by so many crooks, incompetent fools and con men because of their stupidity, greed and corruption.
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Than who do you think owns it?
It may come down to who has a liability claim against Commodore Business Machines, Inc. and Commodore-Amiga, Inc.
Money! (lack of it)
They never had money as far as I can tell. What was Hyperion's contract price? Something like $10,000 wasn't it?
Personally, I think the documentation speaks for itself.
The German transfer is questionable (occurring after CBM went bankrupt) thus nullifying the 2007 transfer.
In short, the property was never legally acquired by anyone after CBM folded.
In Mr. Jens Schoenfeld's words, "Face it guys, the 'Amiga curse' is not about the Amiga. It's about the people who supposedly own the rights."
God, i love that quote from Jens.
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Still doesn't matter to the rest of the planet if this law is being made in the USA courts or even by the American government, the rest of the world has their own laws and governments so such a law could never be legally enforced by the USA unless other countries governments & lawmakers agree to it... ;)
Consider what jurisdiction the root DNS servers are under.
Also consider that the RIAA is a worldwide terrorist organization.
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Consider what jurisdiction the root DNS servers are under.
I had thought of that and again another simple answer, just make sure it isn't American based... ;)
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I had thought of that and again another simple answer, just make sure it isn't American based... ;)
So much for living in "The Land of the Free".
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It may come down to who has a liability claim against Commodore Business Machines, Inc. and Commodore-Amiga, Inc.
All claims were settled during the bankruptcy proceedings. That was the whole point of them.
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Consider what jurisdiction the root DNS servers are under.
Also consider that the RIAA is a worldwide terrorist organization.
The only RIAA I know of is the "Recording Industry Association of America", now what they have to do with the Amiga I don't know but if they are a Terrorist Organisation then bring em on I say, I've got me tickling sticks fully loaded with brand new feathers... :D
@ Iggy
In the western world their is no such thing as "The Land Of The Free", we're all ruled by the rich & powerful minority and like sheep most folk go along with it for fear of being fined or locked up... :(
It's only when you reach a certain stage in life that you suddenly realise bugger this for a game of soldiers and say sod it to the man...;)
At the end of the day unlike a computer game you only get one life not three and if you let what's left of your life be ruled by fear of petty laws and BS politics then that's a sad waste of anyones life... ;)
Just remember for 99.99% of the population of this planet what we say and do in life will soon be long forgotten when we're gone, just like the countless billions who came before us, so you may as well do and say as you please in what time you have left and enjoy it, cos at the end of it all when it's game over what most of did or achieved in life amount to nothing in the grand scheme of things... :)
(This little ditty that I listen to just about every day reminds me of that... :))
[youtube]rA2-6ZlOXeg[/youtube]
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All claims were settled during the bankruptcy proceedings. That was the whole point of them.
Claims are usually settled during a bankruptcy procedure and all assets are liquidated with claimants being paid from whatever funds are derived from complete liquidation. Any remaining debts are considered discharged and the company no longer exists.
Therefore, how is it legal two years after the liquidation of CBM and Commodore-Amiga for a former official to transfer assets from a non-existent company to another entity?
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I didn't read the whole thread but I read the point Franko made and he does have a point in American Copyright Law.
While a copyright exists for anything a person creates they must also protect that copyright to maintain it. Some famous examples:
Asprin was a trademarked name but when the public started to use it as a generic term for wanting an analgesic they lost the right to Asprin.
These companies were scared to death of this:
Coke, Kleenex, and Xerox.
Xerox went so far to put ads in magazines telling people to stop saying "I need to Xerox my documents." They pushed for "Photo Copy" in the public mind.
People would say, "I want a Coke or what kind of Coke can I get you?" Meaning a type of soda.
On Star Trek The Next Generation, they thought Sherlock Holmes was in the PD when they did their first show with that character. The estate made a lot of noise that it was not in the PD and they still owned it. They were very nice to Paramount but they banged that drum pretty hard.
If you don't protect your IP a court can rule that you have let it slip into the PD.
The point I'm making is that I wasn't aware that Ainc (or whoever owns AOS) wasn't sending C&D letters to people hosting Kickstart/Workbench files. That is bad, bad, bad for them.
If you can prove that X many sites have had Kickstart/Workbench files for X many years with no action taken by the owners I think you could argue that they have not protected their IP.
I'm not a lawyer, I'm just speaking from my understanding of all of this...
Cheers!
-P
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If you can prove that X many sites have had Kickstart/Workbench files for X many years with no action taken by the owners I think you could argue that they have not protected their IP.
That's one of the arguments I would use. It has been used successfully in the past in such claims and still holds true even today... :)
When someone suddenly decides to claim Copyright infringement and it can be proven that they have not actively done so in recent years and let others get away with it, then they generally have their case thrown out or not even be allowed a proper hearing in the first place... :)
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Did anyone read those references?
It is entirely possible that Escom and Gateway did not have the right to sell the OS (if they ever did sell it) as it may not have been properly transferred to them in the first place.
Which could very well mean that only licensees that dealt with Commodore before bankruptcy have a legal claim to use AOS.
Further, if Escom, fgateway and Amiga Inc. have never been the legal owners of AOS, how long would be needed before it lapsed into public domain?
Someone has to own it so it's either Commodore Holding or Amiga Inc, take your pick. As for how long before it goes into public domain, 95 years since it was written.
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For those who think that copyrights are limited to individual countries, please reference to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_international_copyright_agreements
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Someone has to own it so it's either Commodore Holding or Amiga Inc, take your pick. As for how long before it goes into public domain, 95 years since it was written.
I really wish you would stop using American laws for your examples, USA laws don't apply the rest of the world, each country has it's own laws and length of times such things apply for... so it would depend under which countries laws the documents were signed... ;)
Example UK copyright laws (time limits)...
http://www.caret.cam.ac.uk/copyright/Page171.html
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I really wish you would stop using American laws for your examples, USA laws don't apply the rest of the world, each country has it's own laws and length of times such things apply for... so it would depend under which countries laws the documents were signed... ;)
Example UK copyright laws (time limits)...
http://www.caret.cam.ac.uk/copyright/Page171.html
AFAIK, AOS was originally coded and copyrighted in USA. Do you have proof it was created in the UK so it would fall under UK's copyright laws of 50 years? I didn't think so.
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I really wish you would stop using American laws for your examples, USA laws don't apply the rest of the world, each country has it's own laws and length of times such things apply for... so it would depend under which countries laws the documents were signed... ;)
Example UK copyright laws (time limits)...
http://www.caret.cam.ac.uk/copyright/Page171.html
If something was copyrighted in the USA, than the time limits of the USA apply to it, according to the Berne Convention, of which the UK is a party to.
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AFAIK, AOS was originally coded and copyrighted in USA. Do you have proof it was created in the UK so it would fall under UK's copyright laws of 50 years? I didn't think so.
That's not what I said, I was simply pointing out that in whichever country the agreement was signed it would fall under that countries laws. I agree that the original CBM stuff would most likely come under US law, but what about companies like Gateway where was that agreement signed and which countries laws would that therefore be under... :)
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That's not what I said, I was simply pointing out that in whichever country the agreement was signed it would fall under that countries laws. I agree that the original CBM stuff would most likely come under US law, but what about companies like Gateway where was that agreement signed and which countries laws would that therefore be under... :)
The agreement would be under what ever country it was agreed to in the contract. That would not over right where the initial copyright was originally created and those laws would follow the copyrighted material until the expiration date.
I still don't get why this is even in question, AOS is too old to give a rat's rear end about when you have AROS code available. When Bill Buck was talking about if he had won the AI case and he got the code, he said he would offer it to the AROS Devs. The AROS Devs politely turned him down because it was too out dated to be useful to them. Even more so now that AROS68K and kickstart are back in development.
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While a copyright exists for anything a person creates they must also protect that copyright to maintain it.
Don't confuse copyright and trademark. Trademarks need to be protected, copyrights do not.
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AFAIK, AOS was originally coded and copyrighted in USA. Do you have proof it was created in the UK so it would fall under UK's copyright laws of 50 years? I didn't think so.
While I'm not really interested in Copyright discussions... Since as far as I'm concerned AmigaOS is tainted IP and AROS is the way to get Amiga compatibility... But I thought I would chime in with an interesting fact that AmigaDOS is basically a straight port of the old British Operating System TripOS to run on top of the exec kernel, and I believe it was done in the UK at a Bristol based company called MetaComCo. :)
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I still don't get why this is even in question, AOS is too old to give a rat's rear end about when you have AROS code available. When Bill Buck was talking about if he had won the AI case and he got the code, he said he would offer it to the AROS Devs. The AROS Devs politely turned him down because it was too out dated to be useful to them. Even more so now that AROS68K and kickstart are back in development.
EXACTLY... :D (wow never thought I'd agree with something Dammy said)
At the end of the day who really give a furry rodents bottom about any of this BS... :)
In the words of this jaunty wee ditty "It's all a load of Bollocks & Bollocks to it all"... ;)
[youtube]WEx_ByPS9xQ[/youtube]
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If something was copyrighted in the USA, than the time limits of the USA apply to it, according to the Berne Convention, of which the UK is a party to.
Again, if a company is insolvent and its assets are liquidated in a bankruptcy, it can not transfer assets to another company afterward as it no longer exists.
Bernhard Hembach was an employee of Escom. He is the individual that signed for all three parties in the three contracts that supposedly transferred the rights of this intellectual property to Gateway - this occurred three years after Commodore signed a "Trademark Assignment" agreement with Escom, long after CBM and Commodore-Amiga were liquidated.
The only legal approval of this agreement was from a German notary.
These documents are absolutely NOT valid as Escom never obtained the rights to Amiga intellectual property - ever.
Its that simple. I can't buy one thing from a company going bankrupt and then years afterward sell something else to another company (that originally belonged to the bankrupt firm)- because I don't own it! Get it guys? Escom never owned Amniga OS. So Gateway couldn't transfer it to Bill because they didn't legally buy it (they couldn't because Escom never owned it).
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Awe... its a dull Tuesday night and I can't even get a decent argument round here, I've got about 400 channels of shit on the TV (only thing worth recording was the new series of "Deadliest Catch" to watch at about 4:am when I have me dinner)... :)
Just finished RetroBrighting all me old VIC 20 & C64 cases and started on my miggie cases now so I aint got any space left and am surrounded by froth and UV lamps (getting a nice tan though) so I've got nowt better to do tonight than hang around here chewing the fat with all you lovely peeps... :)
Could be worse, I could be over the road with a white sheet on me napper putting the willies up old Mrs Johnstone through her bedroom window... :eek:
C'mon Iggy stir things up a wee bit cos the other side have chickend out with the same old replies and quotes over and over again... ;)
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Awe... its a dull Tuesday night and I can't even get a decent argument round here, I've got about 400 channels of shit on the TV (only thing worth recording was the new series of "Deadliest Catch" to watch at about 4:am when I have me dinner)... :)
Just finished RetroBrighting all me old VIC 20 & C64 cases and started on my miggie cases now so I aint got any space left and am surrounded by froth and UV lamps (getting a nice tan though) so I've got nowt better to do tonight than hang around here chewing the fat with all you lovely peeps... :)
Could be worse, I could be over the road with a white sheet on me napper putting the willies up old Mrs Johnstone through her bedroom window... :eek:
C'mon Iggy stir things up a wee bit cos the other side have chickend out with the same old replies and quotes over and over again... ;)
Frankly Franko, they can't counter they argument that AOS is an abandoned work. There is no ownership claimed for this product until three years after the copyright holder was dissolved.
Bloodline's right. It's a tainted property and by all rights its copyrights should not be valid.
BTW - What's Mrs. Johnstone look like?
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Frankly Franko, they can't counter they argument that AOS is an abandoned work. There is no ownership claimed for this product until three years after the copyright holder was dissolved.
Bloodline's right. It's a tainted property and by all rights its copyrights should not be valid.
BTW - What's Mrs. Johnstone look like?
Bit like this on a normal day... :eek:
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af79/frankosamiga/Funny/old_woman.jpg)
But she polishes up well when needs be... :)
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af79/frankosamiga/Funny/Barbara-Cartland.jpg)
Seeing as no ones got any good counter arguments, anyone fancy a game of I Spy... :D
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Bit like this on a normal day... :eek:
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af79/frankosamiga/Funny/old_woman.jpg)
But she polishes up well when needs be... :)
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af79/frankosamiga/Funny/Barbara-Cartland.jpg)
Seeing as no ones got any good counter arguments, anyone fancy a game of I Spy... :D
Nope, I was thinking of putting out my little eyes after that one.
And your right. i think we wore them out.
Time to go dig up a DVD-R that Xdelusion sent me.
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For those who think that copyrights are limited to individual countries, please reference to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_international_copyright_agreements
Iran ftw! :D
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Ok... seeing as no one wants to play I'll just have to play with meself here... :)
Here goes...
I Spy With My Little Eye... something begining with "M"... :)
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Again, if a company is insolvent and its assets are liquidated in a bankruptcy, it can not transfer assets to another company afterward as it no longer exists.
Bernhard Hembach was an employee of Escom. He is the individual that signed for all three parties in the three contracts that supposedly transferred the rights of this intellectual property to Gateway - this occurred three years after Commodore signed a "Trademark Assignment" agreement with Escom, long after CBM and Commodore-Amiga were liquidated.
The only legal approval of this agreement was from a German notary.
These documents are absolutely NOT valid as Escom never obtained the rights to Amiga intellectual property - ever.
Its that simple. I can't buy one thing from a company going bankrupt and then years afterward sell something else to another company (that originally belonged to the bankrupt firm)- because I don't own it! Get it guys? Escom never owned Amniga OS. So Gateway couldn't transfer it to Bill because they didn't legally buy it (they couldn't because Escom never owned it).
By that chain of logic, Commodore Holdings has the asset.
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I know of no such law. A property owner can try to obtain a cease and desist order and send e-mail or letters requesting the removal of material they object to.
There is no such thing as a "cease and desist order". Anyone can write a letter demanding the recipient "cease and desist" with something - it has no legal power other than serving as proof later that you asked them to stop before you went to court.
There is however the DMCA, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Under the DMCA, any US hosted content can be requested removed by anyone who claims to be the rights holder. Unless the person responsible for uploading the content files a counterclaim, the company or person hosting the content is then legally obliged to remove the content regardless of whether it has been proven in court that the person requesting removal has rights to it (however, if they don't have rights to it, the person hosting it could have legal redress if they take the matter to court, and anyone requesting removal of content they don't own rights to would have committed fraud)
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If they or whomever had and they felt they could prove this in a court of law then I'm pretty sure they would have taken action long ago to shut down such sites.
If this is the whole reason for the discussion, I´d say with a lot of respect: "you guys are retarded."
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I didn't read the whole thread but I read the point Franko made and he does have a point in American Copyright Law.
While a copyright exists for anything a person creates they must also protect that copyright to maintain it. Some famous examples:
No, you don't. You're thinking about trademarks. Trademarks must be defended to remain valid, copyrights don't.
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Frankly Franko, they can't counter they argument that AOS is an abandoned work. There is no ownership claimed for this product until three years after the copyright holder was dissolved.
Bloodline's right. It's a tainted property and by all rights its copyrights should not be valid.
Copyright doesn't work like that. *IF* the rights were never legally transferred, they belong to Commodore's successors-in-interest, which would be either anyone Commodore owed money or Commodore's shareholders. Sorting out who would be difficult, and frankly the only way it would happen would be if Amiga Inc. sues someone and that someone challenges the legality of their ownership claims, or if a possible successor makes a claim.
However, any copying without a valid license is still copyright infringement - the only thing that changes is how likely it is you'll get sued. For trademarks the issue is murkier, as ownership of trademarks is at least in part defined by use and whether or not someone asserts ownership.
But honestly, at this point, who cares? The ROM's are easy to obtain, and we have AROS rapidly becoming a viable replacement on classics. And regardless of any rights granted or not to Hyperion, as long as no possible other owner challenges them, they're in the clear, and they do certainly own the rights to any parts *they* have developed unless they have signed contrracts to the contrary.
Unless you're planning on suing Cloanto or Hyperion, or want to try to challenge the Amiga trademark, whether or not Amiga Inc. owns the rights is pretty much irrelevant.
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Ingredients:
- 100g butter, softened, plus extra for greasing (this is optional)
- 250g crunchy peanut butter
- 250g light soft brown sugar
- 1 large egg
- a few drops of vanilla
- 125g oats
- 90g dried raspberries
- 125g plain flour
- 1tsp bicarb soda
Method:
- Preheat the oven to 160 degrees C. Cut baking paper to fit 3 baking trays.
- Beat the softened butter and peanut butter in a bowl with a wooden spoon. Add sugar and beat until well mixed.
- Ceack the egg into a bowl and whisk with a fork. Add vanilla with the wooden spoon. Add the oats and raspberries to the mixture, sift over the trays, spacing slightly apart, and bake for 18-20 minutes until light golden. Remove from the oven. Leave to firm up on their trays for a few minutes, then transfer to wire racks to cool completely.
Tip: Best to eat biscuits while still warm.
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In the end, it doesn't matter a jot as to the opinion of this thread. Unless someone makes a mint, using the name of, ip of etc, nothing is provable. The law is applied during judgment of the case before the bar and no where else. Regardless of any previous judgments. No one is the owner of anything until that moment and even then, it can be disputed immediately judgment is passed.
Owner of Amiga OS its IP its name = Who's the man with the cash, and if the price is right, its someone else's cash tomorrow. Cash Cow. Milk it!.
Barry v Ben.....Get ready to rumble!. Get it on!
The only winner is the lawyer, lets put them up against the wall when the revolution comes.
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No, you don't. You're thinking about trademarks. Trademarks must be defended to remain valid, copyrights don't.
Which is why I say anyone at this point can use the old original Amiga ticker to whatever they like.
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All very valid points. Thank you all for reminding me how intensely pointless all this is.
Perhaps Ben Hermans and Barry Altman are the only people who still take this trademark seriously.
I actually wish them both the best of luck.
And we do still have alternatives.
BTW - Kesa, thanks for the recipe.
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@ Iggy
Oooh... Second time in 24 hours that I've nicked your medal (Gloat... Gloat...)... :D
Just wondering you've been doing a lost of posting over recent times, have you retired like meself and also got way too much time on your hands... ;)
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@ Iggy
Oooh... Second time in 24 hours that I've nicked your medal (Gloat... Gloat...)... :D
Just wondering you've been doing a lost of posting over recent times, have you retired like meself and also got way too much time on your hands... ;)
No, just spending too much time on the internets (at least according to the wife).
My recent spike in posts is primarily due to some ridiculous crap Dave Haynie has once again been spouting.
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@Iggy
Think of it this way.... if Haynie's BS is true then MorphOS is the true Amiga OS. ;)
One could further mash the heads of the Blind Hyperion Followers by digging up that old post where one of the Friedens stated that OS4 contains little to none of the Commodore source.
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@Iggy
Think of it this way.... if Haynie's BS is true then MorphOS is the true Amiga OS. ;)
One could further mash the heads of the Blind Hyperion Followers by digging up that old post where one of the Friedens stated that OS4 contains little to none of the Commodore source.
Dig out whatever you want, I won't see it. ;-)
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@Iggy
Think of it this way.... if Haynie's BS is true then MorphOS is the true Amiga OS. ;)
One could further mash the heads of the Blind Hyperion Followers by digging up that old post where one of the Friedens stated that OS4 contains little to none of the Commodore source.
No Nicholas, we're not currrrsed. :)
But that quote from one of the brothers is telling.
How useful would the source code be?
Thanks for reminding of that comment. I was letting Haynie's oft repeated slur get to me. Even Ben Hermans no longer posts crap like that.
AmigaDave's been following me around to different forum trying to get me to temper my posts. I shouldn't get combative like this. We're actually seeing a lot more cross-platform respect and cooperation.
Have you seen the warning Gunnar has posted on the Natami site?
Maybe we should all adopt a similar policy.
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@Iggy
Think of it this way.... if Haynie's BS is true then MorphOS is the true Amiga OS. ;)
One could further mash the heads of the Blind Hyperion Followers by digging up that old post where one of the Friedens stated that OS4 contains little to none of the Commodore source.
You'll need to search ann.lu since that is where I asked the question and got the response :)
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But that quote from one of the brothers is telling.
How useful would the source code be?
Source code is the ultimate spec. If you have the source, you can write a better replacement than anybody else. It doesn´t have to be in your results, but having access to the sources makes a big difference!
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You'll need to search ann.lu since that is where I asked the question and got the response :)
It's a pitty that the the ANN.lu archive is in such bad shape though. No search feature and most (99.9%) of all comments are gone.
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Source code is the ultimate spec. If you have the source, you can write a better replacement than anybody else. It doesn´t have to be in your results, but having access to the sources makes a big difference!
I can see your point. But with access to the 3.1 source Hyperion's product isn't superior to MorphOS. The additional time spent improving MorphOS seems to have given it an edge.
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The way I see it Amiga Inc's claim to the Amiga OS is Valid.
But that doesn't mean they own it or a copyright to it.
OS and KS was all owned by "Commodore Amiga Inc." According the original copyright. Full rights being onsold to Escom but not for the OS. Something was then sold to Gateway. Which retrospectively included some bodged non binding copyrights for the OS. @ 1$ each. Bit of a legal blunder there : See attachment.
What did Gateway own and have a right grant license to? unknown.
Was the license granted to Amiga Inc by Gateway exclusive? Who knows.
Did the current Amiga Inc complete the purchase of the license granted? Evidence would suggest not.
These questions would seem to be impossible to answer legally now.
So I rang up Gateway (Acer) and asked them what they thought about me (on franko's behalf) having a right to on sell Amiga OS and kickstart, and they said "what's a meega?"
I can't ring up Amiga Inc as they are no longer incorporated and they don't have a phone number.
So I reckon it's either Nicholas or Franko who own it now.
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I can see your point. But with access to the 3.1 source Hyperion's product isn't superior to MorphOS. The additional time spent improving MorphOS seems to have given it an edge.
Personally I would blame some design descisions made by the Friedan's rather than any inherent inferiority/superiority of product.
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Source code is the ultimate spec. If you have the source, you can write a better replacement than anybody else. It doesn´t have to be in your results, but having access to the sources makes a big difference!
Got any examples? :-)
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The way I see it Amiga Inc's claim to the Amiga OS is Valid.
But that doesn't mean they own it or a copyright to it.
OS and KS was all owned by "Commodore Amiga Inc." According the original copyright. Full rights being onsold to Escom but not for the OS. Something was then sold to Gateway. Which retrospectively included some bodged non binding copyrights for the OS. @ 1$ each. Bit of a legal blunder there : See attachment.
Then it's still Commodore (Commodore Holding) IP then. Someone has to own it, the last in the known chain would be the owner.
What did Gateway own and have a right grant license to? unknown.
Was the license granted to Amiga Inc by Gateway exclusive? Who knows.
GW (now Acer) sold everything, except the hardware patents which they issued a license out to, to Amiga Inc.
Did the current Amiga Inc complete the purchase of the license granted? Evidence would suggest not.
These questions would seem to be impossible to answer legally now.
So I rang up Gateway (Acer) and asked them what they thought about me (on franko's behalf) having a right to on sell Amiga OS and kickstart, and they said "what's a meega?"
They sold it to AI over 10 years ago, of course they didn't have a clue on what you were talking about.
I can't ring up Amiga Inc as they are no longer incorporated and they don't have a phone number.
So I reckon it's either Nicholas or Franko who own it now.
Ah, that's not how it works. Now IIRC, Hyperion and AI's last agreement, Hyperion has to enforce Amiga Inc's IP rights. So contact Ben or Timothy and ask them if their Amiga OS license from Amiga Inc is valid or not.
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So I rang up Gateway (Acer) and asked them what they thought about me (on franko's behalf) having a right to on sell Amiga OS and kickstart, and they said "what's a meega?"
I can't ring up Amiga Inc as they are no longer incorporated and they don't have a phone number.
So I reckon it's either Nicholas or Franko who own it now.
Not sure if you're having a laugh here but did you really call Gateway/Acer... :confused:
I'd be more than happy to openly make free (again) Kickstart ROM images and Workbench Disk Sets for everyone to download on my sites instead of having them hidden away (where they are just now) for only those in know to find... :)
As I've said before when they were available for the world to see I never got one complaint form anyone claiming to own them and asking me to stop it or face legal action... :)
The only complaints I got were from the moaning minny copyright mafia on here who don't own any of it demanding the link to my site be removed and I should be banned... :(
I'd be very interested in calling Gateway myself if that's the reply you got and then being able to decide if I should plaster my homepage with nothing but Free downloads of KickStart & Workbench Disk Sets so that everyone can have access to them... :)
As I keep saying it's way past time all this was settled one way or the other and to me the only way that's going to happen is to force whomever can genuinely prove ownership to come forward and demand/threaten that any sites doing so will face legal action which I am more then willing to challenge in a court of law... :)
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Not sure if you're having a laugh here but did you really call Gateway/Acer... :confused:
I'd be more than happy to openly make free (again) Kickstart ROM images and Workbench Disk Sets for everyone to download on my sites instead of having them hidden away (where they are just now) for only those in know to find... :)
As I've said before when they were available for the world to see I never got one complaint form anyone claiming to own them and asking me to stop it or face legal action... :)
The only complaints I got were from the moaning minny copyright mafia on here who don't own any of it demanding the link to my site be removed and I should be banned... :(
I'd be very interested in calling Gateway myself if that's the reply you got and then being able to decide if I should plaster my homepage with nothing but Free downloads of KickStart & Workbench Disk Sets so that everyone can have access to them... :)
As I keep saying it's way past time all this was settled one way or the other and to me the only way that's going to happen is to force whomever can genuinely prove ownership to come forward and demand/threaten that any sites doing so will face legal action which I am more then willing to challenge in a court of law... :)
It would be an interesting test to see if Hyperion will live up to their AI agreement or not.
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It would be an interesting test to see if Hyperion will live up to their AI agreement or not.
I reckon it's worth a go if it will help solve all this confusion once and for all. As it's obvious no one is ever going to tell the truth in this matter until a legal challenge is made in a court... :)
At least then one way or the other the truth behind who can genuinely lay claim to what would finally be know and perhaps all of us Amiga fans can finally move forward... ;)
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The only complaints I got were from the moaning minny copyright mafia on here who don't own any of it demanding the link to my site be removed and I should be banned... :(
It's never a good idea to associate with piracy in such a public place. By saying there can be no links from amiga.org to copyright works that are being distributed without permission then it saves any hassle.
You're right, it's easy to get kickstart and workbench disk images on the internet. Which makes it look like you only want to cause controversy, when really what you're doing is irrelevant.
Why you'd even be bothered is beyond me.
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It's never a good idea to associate with piracy in such a public place. By saying there can be no links from amiga.org to copyright works that are being distributed without permission then it saves any hassle.
You're right, it's easy to get kickstart and workbench disk images on the internet. Which makes it look like you only want to cause controversy, when really what you're doing is irrelevant.
Why you'd even be bothered is beyond me.
That's the whole point though, is it piracy if whomever allegedly owns the stuff couldn't care less about these things being free to download on numerous sites on the web... ;)
You've got it all wrong and don't understand my point behind all of this, it's not about causing controversy it about ending it and putting an end to all these years of rumour and speculation about who has the rights to what that has caused nothing but damage in the Amiga community... :(
Why I bother... simple having only ever used Commodore computers all my life then they hold a special meaning to me and I'm sick and tired of the BS that has dragged both the Commodore & Amiga names down all these years and has made us the laughing stock of the computer world... :madashell:
You may not care and that's fine but I do and when I care about something I fight all the way until I win or lose... :)
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Someone could always try this -
http://www.amiga.com/about/contact/
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That's the whole point though, is it piracy if whomever allegedly owns the stuff couldn't care less about these things being free to download on numerous sites on the web...
Oh, if that's the whole point then let me clear it up for you.
Yes, it is piracy.
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Someone could always try this -
http://www.amiga.com/about/contact/
Yeah, ask the former Gateway employee if the property was transferred properly to his company. That'll work. Like he doesn't have a vested interest in it. :roflmao:
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Oh, if that's the whole point then let me clear it up for you.
Yes, it is piracy.
That's your opinion and your entitled to it but I beg to differ on the matter... :)
So I'm afraid your "opinion" doesn't clear it up for me... ;)
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That's your opinion and your entitled to it but I beg to differ on the matter... :)
So I'm afraid your "opinion" doesn't clear it up for me... ;)
Why don't you ask Ben of Hyperion then?
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Why don't you ask Ben of Hyperion then?
Give me this "Bens" contact details and I'll gladly ask him, though I doubt from what I have read by others that he owns nothing more than licences to use certain trademarks and sell software under licence... :)
I really want to know who actually owns all the IP/TradeMarks/Copyright and has the power to issue licenses and rights to the likes of A.Inc & Hyperion and "They who shall remain nameless". That to me would be the guilty party behind all these years of BS and dragging the Amiga & Commodore names through the dirt... ;)
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The IP is dead, there is no more Amiga IP, it's well past 17 years on everything. The Trademark is legally registered in the US and EU, but outside of those places, especially non-Madrid protocol countries the name is fair game. Amiga Inc registered a trademark in Australia in 2006...
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That's the whole point though, is it piracy if whomever allegedly owns the stuff couldn't care less about these things being free to download on numerous sites on the web...
Yes. You know that someone owns the copyright & that you don't have permission to distribute it.
What you're basically asking is "is it illegal, if you get away with it?"
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http://aminet.net/package/docs/misc/Amiga-Trademarks
Current trademarks as compiled by Christoph Gutjahr.
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Yes. You know that someone owns the copyright & that you don't have permission to distribute it.
What you're basically asking is "is it illegal, if you get away with it?"
Erm... wrong again I don't know for a fact that someone owns the copyright as no-one has so far given conclusive proof that they do... :)
And not I'm not asking if it's illegal if you get away with it either...
If you know for a fact who own the the copyrights etc.. post the proof here for all to see... ;)
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http://aminet.net/package/docs/misc/Amiga-Trademarks
Current trademarks as compiled by Christoph Gutjahr.
Try and remember trademarks and copyrights are different. Trademarks have set expiration dates.
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The IP is dead, there is no more Amiga IP, it's well past 17 years on everything. The Trademark is legally registered in the US and EU, but outside of those places, especially non-Madrid protocol countries the name is fair game. Amiga Inc registered a trademark in Australia in 2006...
I would think that The only way to really clear it up is to track down everyone that could even possibly have any connection to Amiga, and have each of them "relicense" all Amiga copyrights with a BSD style license. Key would be to make sure that the copyrights they are licensing are worded broad enough to include anything and everything Amiga related. We don't have to worry about Patents, as those have all expired anyway.
I say BSD instead of GPL because all of the source might not even be available, and it would mean that they wouldn't have to break any up stream owners/licenses. Basically give the the out of "donating" whatever they may have, even if they don't know they have it. Once you have made it to the end of the chain, AmigaOS is free. Until then, you at least remove a bunch the elements in the debate over who owns it.
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I would think that The only way to really clear it up is to track down everyone that could even possibly have any connection to Amiga, and have each of them "relicense" all Amiga copyrights with a BSD style license. Key would be to make sure that the copyrights they are licensing are worded broad enough to include anything and everything Amiga related. We don't have to worry about Patents, as those have all expired anyway.
I say BSD instead of GPL because all of the source might not even be available, and it would mean that they wouldn't have to break any up stream owners/licenses. Basically give the the out of "donating" whatever they may have, even if they don't know they have it. Once you have made it to the end of the chain, AmigaOS is free. Until then, you at least remove a bunch the elements in the debate over who owns it.
OR, we leave it rest where it is. Maintain and a reasonably cordial relationship with Hyperion where they don't attack AROS or MorphOS and we all work together.
Probably not going to happen, but a more realistic solution than asking the current claimants of the IP to give up their property rights.
I'm beginning to regret starting this thread because it will lead to contention and that isn't likely to foster any good.
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OR, we leave it rest where it is. Maintain and a reasonably cordial relationship with Hyperion where they don't attack AROS or MorphOS and we all work together.
I think this is exactly what Hyperion is trying to do, but some other people don't seem to be able to let it rest ...
greets,
Staf.
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I think this is exactly what Hyperion is trying to do, but some other people don't seem to be able to let it rest ...
greets,
Staf.
Sorry I appear to have awakened this ancient evil. I should never have unleashed this. Damn you Dave Haynie.
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Oh, if that's the whole point then let me clear it up for you.
Yes, it is piracy.
Not in Iran it isn't. Nor is it "piracy" in many other jurisdictions either.
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Not in Iran it isn't. Nor is it "piracy" in many other jurisdictions either.
Actually, if you steal something... Then it is piracy, regardless of the lack of laws to protect it.
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Actually, if you steal something... Then it is piracy, regardless of the lack of laws to protect it.
Providing download links of software is not stealing according to the laws of Iran, The Netherlands and many many other countries.
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Providing download links of software is not stealing according to the laws of Iran, The Netherlands and many many other countries.
I see, so if I show someone where you hide the key to the back door of your house, then I have done nothing wrong, when that person robs your DVD player and poops on your kitchen table ;)
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I see, so if I show someone where you hide the key to the back door of your house, then I have done nothing wrong, when that person robs your DVD player and poops on your kitchen table ;)
False analogy Matt.
Question.
Is using another company's registered Trademarks stealing?
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I see, so if I show someone where you hide the key to the back door of your house, then I have done nothing wrong, when that person robs your DVD player and poops on your kitchen table ;)
In legal terms no there is no law forbidding you to point out to someone where something is, morally... well that depends on the individuals morals... ;)
Anyway if your daft enough to leave a key for your house "hidden" outside then it would be you're own stupid fault if you got burgled and pooped on... :)
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False analogy Matt.
Not sure it is a false analogy.
The link is showing someone how and where to steal something. I'm thinking quite generically here as I'm personally affected by Copyright theft so my view might be a bit different to most people here.
Don't get me wrong, I think big content providers abuse the copyright laws for their own good... But I want to make it clear that stealing is still stealing regardless of the item being stolen.
Question.
Is using another company's registered Trademarks stealing?
No, that is fraud. You are passing one product off as another.
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False analogy Matt.
Question.
Is using another company's registered Trademarks stealing?
No, that's devaluing the trademark. Copying software or data is stealing.
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I see, so if I show someone where you hide the key to the back door of your house, then I have done nothing wrong, when that person robs your DVD player and poops on your kitchen table ;)
Bad analogy, but I'll play.
As long as you make an exact copy, leaving my copy intact, and take your new copy of my house to your property and do it there... Have at it.
And copyright violation is as much "Stealing" as making a bad sequel to a movie that is part of my inner child is "Child Molestation".
"Piracy" is a poor euphemism for copyright violation. "Stealing" is a ridiculous one.
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No, that is fraud. You are passing one product off as another.
Well I own the registered trademarks for Commodore and Amiga in Iran and most other Muslim majority countries (and a few others too).
Amiga Inc/C-USA own them in the USA and most other secular countries.
Who is fraudulently using those marks?
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You are mixing definitions:
Stealing is when you deprive goods from its rightfull owner in an unlawfull manner.
Copyright infrigement is when you just copy what other people have created disregarding the legal authorization and/or monetary compensation required.
Piracy is what those damn Somali pirates have been doing at the sea. :)
As an example, in my country it is ilegal to sell copied DVD movies, but you can download and use your own copy from the internet without being prosecuted. Legal problems only arise if you intend to commercially profit from that act.
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In legal terms no there is no law forbidding you to point out to someone where something is, morally... well that depends on the individuals morals... ;)
So what if instead of showing the man where the key was hidden, I took it myself, made a copy and then gave the man a copy of your key?
Anyway if your daft enough to leave a key for your house "hidden" outside then it would be you're own stupid fault if you got burgled and pooped on... :)
How about if you gave me your key so I could help you do some work in your house... I then made a copy of that key and gave it to Mr poopie robber, then returned your key back to you?
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You are mixing definitions:
Stealing is when you deprive goods from its rightfull owner in an unlawfull manner.
Copyright infrigement is when you just copy what other people have created disregarding the legal authorization and/or monetary compensation required.
Piracy is what those damn Somali pirates have been doing at the sea. :)
As an example, in my country it is ilegal to sell copied DVD movies, but you can download and use your own copy from the internet without being prosecuted. Legal problems only arise if you intend to commercially profit from that act.
+1 for Argentina! :)
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So what if instead of showing the man where the key was hidden, I took it myself, made a copy and then gave the man a copy of your key?
Then you would be guilty of theft for nicking the key in the first place and most likely aiding and abetting by supplying the tea leaf with the copy of the key... :)
How about if you gave me your key so I could help you do some work in your house... I then made a copy of that key and gave it to Mr poopie robber, then returned your key back to you?
You think I'd trust some old ex-rock star with me key, let alone let him do some work in me house... no chance matey... ;)
It's not the burglar I'd be worried about, it would be coming home to find the place trashed after one of your wild sex, drugs & rock n roll (and Socks) parties I'd be scared about... :eek:
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Wouldn't matter in the rest of world what laws the USA has passed, and even if there is such a law those claiming to own the IP would first have to prove that they did own it and somehow I don't think A.Inc would be in a position to do so... :)
Yes theres the law whats the saying the laws a ass
apprently theres still law in New Zealand where alowable to pee in public through a waggon wheel
But too me theres the law and then theres moral rights and decentcy
TO me we should not be posting roms imgages for open dl
and anyway l never seen thses sites i always had to asl privatly and whats wrong with that
Look at the playstation 3 mess with there network i wasint going metion this here as in past people be supporting thse so called "hackers" criminals l call them or criminals in
in training
banging on they always got grudge or excuse for there lack moral behavour
oh sony took other os feature they took it out because they used to try hack into
the ps3
back to amiga anything with its okay to do what u like is on sliperly slope
we dont need it when we got legitmate companys working to bring back they amiga
brand
99 % time people good but only takes on dickhead to spoil it for everone
so from eprson thats chould had his personally information stolen and cant even play
or acesss his online games hes brought down with people just doing there own thing
willy nilley
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Yes. You know that someone owns the copyright & that you don't have permission to distribute it.
What you're basically asking is "is it illegal, if you get away with it?"
plus 1
100 % right thats always there ethos we can do so its right not saying this about you franko ur good guy i see where u coming from too
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Erm... wrong again I don't know for a fact that someone owns the copyright as no-one has so far given conclusive proof that they do... :)
And not I'm not asking if it's illegal if you get away with it either...
If you know for a fact who own the the copyrights etc.. post the proof here for all to see... ;)
I think that whoukl well truly been gone over in the so called court case or did it get that
far as technically wasint sorted out with lawers well before hand it never reached the judge am talking about amiga inc half assed atempt like all they thing they do.
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It may come down to who has a liability claim against Commodore Business Machines, Inc. and Commodore-Amiga, Inc.
They never had money as far as I can tell. What was Hyperion's contract price? Something like $10,000 wasn't it?
Personally, I think the documentation speaks for itself.
The German transfer is questionable (occurring after CBM went bankrupt) thus nullifying the 2007 transfer.
In short, the property was never legally acquired by anyone after CBM folded.
In Mr. Jens Schoenfeld's words, "Face it guys, the 'Amiga curse' is not about the Amiga. It's about the people who supposedly own the rights."
God, i love that quote from Jens.
a where unimous in that this hehe
Yep call in karma but totally belive if you act out greed and do wrong things it affects you
personally u go onto act these beliefs in your personall life as well.
You may gain money wise or not in case amiga inc not so far as we know ?
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That's your opinion and your entitled to it but I beg to differ on the matter... :)
So I'm afraid your "opinion" doesn't clear it up for me... ;)
It's not my opinion, it's a fact.
Erm... wrong again I don't know for a fact that someone owns the copyright as no-one has so far given conclusive proof that they do...
Has the copyright expired? No? Than someone owns it. It doesn't really matter if you know who they are or not.
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It's not my opinion, it's a fact.
Has the copyright expired? No? Than someone owns it. It doesn't really matter if you know who they are or not.
That isn't strictly true.
If the copyrights were not transferred from Commodore to a third party by the liquidators there is the very real possibility that they are currently unassigned, as Commodore as a legal entity no longer exists.
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In legal terms no there is no law forbidding you to point out to someone where something is, morally... well that depends on the individuals morals... ;)
There might be a law actually, depending on a few things: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_%28legal_term%29
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That isn't strictly true.
If the copyrights were not transferred from Commodore to a third party by the liquidators there is the very real possibility that they are currently unassigned, as Commodore as a legal entity no longer exists.
But C= does exist with it's original IP, minus what was sold to EScom/Acer/AI. I think you would have a very tough time telling the Bahama court system that no one owns AOS and it's up for grabs.
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But C= does exist with it's original IP, minus what was sold to EScom/Acer/AI. I think you would have a very tough time telling the Bahama court system that no one owns AOS and it's up for grabs.
Dammy, how does C= exist after liquidation?
And would a Bahamian court decision really matter to other countries?
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Yeah, ask the former Gateway employee if the property was transferred properly to his company. That'll work. Like he doesn't have a vested interest in it. :roflmao:
Where in that post did I say that?
I would have thought it was obvious what I was suggesting but let me spell it out.
Ask for proof that this happened, not just ask if it did.
Not that I think you will get any but the reponse might be interesting.
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Piracy is what those damn Somali pirates have been doing at the sea. :)
I dont wan't to get into the whole piracy debate, but one of the funniest lines I read on the topic was "We can't be pirates, we don't have any boats!"
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I dont wan't to get into the whole piracy debate, but one of the funniest lines I read on the topic was "We can't be pirates, we don't have any boats!"
Great quote indeed :)
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Where in that post did I say that?
I would have thought it was obvious what I was suggesting but let me spell it out.
Ask for proof that this happened, not just ask if it did.
Not that I think you will get any but the reponse might be interesting.
Yeah, still not likely to work, but a response would be interesting.
As Escom did release 3.1 (although they may never have truly own the AOS IP), basing AInc's claim on 3.1 is slightly more realistic.
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I just wish the company that owns AOS IP, whether that is Commodore Holdings, Amiga Inc, Escom, Acer, Franko, or myself to release the ROM's and Workbench's as a back catalog. I could do with a new copy of 1.3.3! And 3.1 A4000T.......and yeah I can get hooky copies, yeah I can download what I want when I want, with no money changing hands, yes that piracy, and yes I don't give a fuck what you think about that.
But most of the time I do like to pay, and sometimes I do like to hold the original copy. £5 for a new copy of Workbench I would pay.......
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Dammy, how does C= exist after liquidation?
Commodore Holdings.
And would a Bahamian court decision really matter to other countries?
That is where Commodore was incorporated at actually, most likely reasons for tax or international shareholders status. Now IIRC, the US commodore's assets were sold off in a US court in NY. So it would be either a judge in Bahama or US Court in NY that would have to decide.
OTOH, it would be interesting if Hyperion was stripped of it's AmigaOS license.
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I'd be all for whomever owns the right to the Workbench disk sets to do the any of the following...
A) Sell them online in ADF format at a reasonable price for folk to downdload easily
B) As above but also the option to buy them on floppy (as floppy disks don't last forever)
C) Issue rights/licencences to folk who would be willing to do the above from their own site but only be allowed to charge a reasonable price to cover production costs/P&P
D) Or simply place them in the Public Domain and end all this crap once and for all
And don't chime in with "but you can get them already on Amiga Forever" that's fine if you want to buy Amiga Forever but what about folk who simply want to get hold of the ROM Image Files or WorkBench Disk Sets by themselves... :)
I know it wouldn't be a money spinner (not by a long shot) for whomever owns them but it would be more of a Public Service to the Amiga Community who still support these great machines despite the years of crap we've had to put up with by these companies who couldn't give a shit about us anymore cos we're no longer a big money maker for them... :(
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And don't chime in with "but you can get them already on Amiga Forever" that's fine if you want to buy Amiga Forever but what about folk who simply want to get hold of the ROM Image Files or WorkBench Disk Sets by themselves... :)
I know it wouldn't be a money spinner (not by a long shot) for whomever owns them but it would be more of a Public Service to the Amiga Community who still support these great machines despite the years of crap we've had to put up with by these companies who couldn't give a shit about us anymore cos we're no longer a big money maker for them... :(
Agreed Franko, basically my thoughts. My WB 3.1 discs are corrupt, so when I do an Install it plays up, I think last time it took me 10 tries to install the fonts disc and in the end I used one of my many 3.0 fonts discs.
I would like to get a 'fresh' new copy.....yeah I had search on ebay, yes I can get an ADF and play about with it, but it would be nice to go to Amiga Inc and click 'Send me a frickin' new copy of Workbench, so I can keep the dream alive!' button.......
.......argh.......did any of that make sense? I think my boards have gone a bit bandy.....
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Not sure it is a false analogy.
The link is showing someone how and where to steal something. I'm thinking quite generically here as I'm personally affected by Copyright theft so my view might be a bit different to most people here.
Don't get me wrong, I think big content providers abuse the copyright laws for their own good... But I want to make it clear that stealing is still stealing regardless of the item being stolen.
I understand where you are coming from and in your case it is theft/loss of income but it can't be considered stealing if nothing has been sold actively for decades. If nobody wants to sell me a brand new Kickstart disk then there is ZERO loss of income and therefore NO THEFT has occurred.
The entire planet is fed up with scum lawyers defending companies hoarding IP with ZERO products for sale. It's the same crap with new Atari I guess too. It all started in the 90s with Nintendo shutting down the Commodore Internet Archive over a fucking tape image for Donkey Kong on C64. Pure SCUM.
Courts should ban copyright claims unless the item is actively sold. END OF ARGUMENT.
(and again do not mention that over priced cock Amiga forever @ me anyone, two scumbags do not make good)
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I think this whole discussion is pointless considering that every OS EVER have been pirated by many many people. If you get a computer and a new OS comes out that you need to run programs and you can't afford to but it and the program what do you do. Not to mentino I would bed theres a ton of us that found one of our legit disks went bad and we downloaded a copy. While that isn't illeage you were glad to find it. There is no money in the OS anymore. Now the kickstarts theres some money in that as people that really care will keep buying them as they return to there roots.
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IIf you get a computer and a new OS comes out that you need to run programs and you can't afford to but it and the program what do you do.
As usual: If I can't afford the book, I'll have to read for a certain task, I'll steal it or make a copy at the local copy shop. When I'm in the urge to get somewhere and can't afford a ticket, I'll use the tram/train anyway without paying. Or steal a car. No big deal.
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Joining this debate late, but here goes .....
First let me say I agree with Franko, who's point (I think) is "who REALLY owns the copyrights/IPs, etc. & not who THINKS they own them." Like he says, we'll never know until it's tested properly.
Personally, I rather fancy the idea of this being tested in the Scottish courts, who are known for their commonsense & "robust" decisions. ;-)
In my view, that those who claim to hold the various copyrights/IPs are simply squatting on them in the hope that they will be worth a lot of money someday. I just hope they're not holding their breath. ;-)
As Digiman says, they have no product for sale, which rather undermines the large values that they put on the copyrights & IPs, as does the fact that no one seems able to run a profitable business off the back off them.
Defending the rights to various kickstarts & defunct OS versions seems to me like claiming copyright over the Ox drawn plough - It might still have it's uses, but you're never going to make money from selling them.
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Defending the rights to various kickstarts & defunct OS versions seems to me like claiming copyright over the Ox drawn plough - It might still have it's uses, but you're never going to make money from selling them.
Defunct? Are you out of your mind? What do you think is the main reason Amiga Forever is so popular? The demos or the ridiculous games? No, it is the best source to legally obtain all the Kickstarts & Workbench files.
Without them Amiga Forever wouldn´t be worth talking about.
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...one of our legit disks went bad and we downloaded a copy. While that isn't illeage you were glad to find it.
I don´t think it´s legal, but I believe copyright should be modified in a way that it becomes legal. You´d be a real tuna head to sue for such a copy and if I were a judge I would urge the parties to settle so that the infringer pays no more than the cost of the media & shipping for the new disk.
Law should advance to the point it actually makes sense. However AInc paid for the AmigaOS IP and they paid the one, who paid for it to the one who paid for it to get it from ESCOM/Gateway. (I am a bit confused about all the details, there may be some confusion along the way) So that is a very strong indication that these rights are not in the property of Joe Random and they certainly aren´t free of rights or public domain.
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Joining this debate late, but here goes .....
First let me say I agree with Franko, who's point (I think) is "who REALLY owns the copyrights/IPs, etc. & not who THINKS they own them." Like he says, we'll never know until it's tested properly.
Bingo... At last someone actually gets what I'm talking about here... :D
Good now I can find something else to moan about.... :)
(Now where's them threads on "they who shall not be mentioned" or AROS or MorphOS or The Price Of Cheese In Afghanistan...) :D
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Glad to oblige, Franko. :-) Maybe I understand you better than most because my family are from your part of the world & consequently I speak fluent Glaswegian. (Ach, awa & bile yir heid, ye wee sumf !) LOL. ;-)
Ismart - I take your point & I admit I could have worded that better. By "defunct" I meant that they are no longer in development, have no 'future', & are of interest only for their use in emulation of an obsolete machine. (and Yes, I DO own/use a number of Amigas)
Also, I didn't mean that they have no value, but that the figures that AI & others have placed on that value is (IMHO) far in excess of their real commercial worth.
However popular Amiga Forever may be, I'm willing to bet that no one at Cloanto could live for a month on the money they make in a year from AF, hence it might be a nice hobby job, but you'd hardly call it "profitable", a factor which largely determines something's commercial value.
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Glad to see this topic losing steam.
What started as a discussion about what I thought was a legitimate point, has gotten rather off topic.
My only interest was seeing how many of you thought that the botched Escom transfer rendered later IP claims invalid.
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Dammy, how does C= exist after liquidation?
Escom bought commodore international from the liquidators.
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Defunct? Are you out of your mind? What do you think is the main reason Amiga Forever is so popular? The demos or the ridiculous games? No, it is the best source to legally obtain all the Kickstarts & Workbench files.
Without them Amiga Forever wouldn´t be worth talking about.
Uh... what? I see it totally the other way around.
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The some subsidiaries still existed. Notably Commodore UK, which had plans to purchase the remnants of CBM in the bankruptcy liquidation.
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The some subsidiaries still existed. Notably Commodore UK, which had plans to purchase the remnants of CBM in the bankruptcy liquidation.
A good point. I'm sure their contract would have been better written than the Escom contract (which fails to mention software IP).
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Isn't there a new law passed in the USA that allow authorities to shut down any website guilty of hosting unauthorized copyrighted content? Don't you think anyone with legitimate claims to IP would use such a law?
They could shut down such sites as long as they are hosted somewhere on US territory - but how could they shut down websites hosted in e.g. Russia or China or the like?