Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: ElPolloDiabl on March 27, 2011, 03:22:47 AM
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see title... either Natami, Minimig, or FPGA Arcade. Will it become your main retro platform? Would you only buy one after your current rig dies? Would you like to see it progress to a new homebrew market?
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I will be buying the NatAmi when it's available but it wont take over from my A1200s... :)
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I answered "No," but it has nothing to do with the technology per se..
It's just that I have already spent more on getting my A1200 and A1000 and adding things to them. And I still have things to do (get) for my A1000, and possibly my A1200.
I wouldn't mind one of the newer FPGA devices, and I am not saying they are too expensive. But I probably won't be able to self justify that..
Unless (Deity (or lack thereof) forbid) something happens to my current hardware in the mean time.
But who knows.. 2 years ago, I would have answered "No, I'm not going to be able to justify spending money on an Amiga 1000." ;-)
desiv
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I'm looking at the Replay board. I've been wanting an FPGA development board, and it makes more sense to get one already optimized to be an Amiga as well as those other retro machines.
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Assuming the NatAmi is within my price range, I'll definitely be buying one - I don't know whether I'll hang onto my current system or not, though. I'll figure that out when I get there.
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I'm looking at the Replay board.
Haven't decided to bite quite yet but I'm seriously considering it as well.
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In Natami we trust :)
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I will but at least One Natami and FPGA Arcade (maybe 2 to keep as spares...) and i will be keeping and using all my old Amiga's, C64 etc etc etc.
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I voted yes.
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I already have a Minimig v1.1 with ARM, I'm waiting on the FPGA Arcade and I'll take a good look at the Natami when it is out.
Unfortunately I answered "I already own one" when I should have said "and I'll get another".
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Would you only buy one after your current rig dies?
That´s me. I would have liked an option "as soon as my Commodore Amiga breaks". I see the FPGA Amigas mainly as a way to take Amiga Hardware into the future. I don´t think I´d buy another old Amiga 3000 from eBay when mine breaks.
Also I´d like to see a board that can act as an AmigaONE and FPGA-Amiga at some time in the future - a machine that can run any AmigaOS software without emulation and run it fast. Ideally licensed in a way, that when the company making it dies, it becomes open source hardware and immortal.
Oh and of course it would be designed to have a real Amiga keyboard and real Amiga ball mouse and could read your old floppies.
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Got a Minimig, will buy a Replay *and* a Natami
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Of all the hardware projects, FPGA are the ones I'd be most likely to spend money on.
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Nope. I already have an a1200 and for when I want something more powerful I have my amithlon box.
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I don't think I will. I like the classics for what they are. I dont think hardware emulation will "feel" the same.
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I don't think I will. I like the classics for what they are. I dont think hardware emulation will "feel" the same.
I'm with you although if there is an attractive enough FPGA alternative available when I get fed up with mucking around with classics.....
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I voted yes, but that is more of a maybe... I like where the FPGA Arcade is going. If they get RTG on there... Then it seems like a viable option.
The whole idea of Natami is very nice from a theoretical point of view, but really from a practical perspective the best machine would be AGA + RTG + 030 (compatible) with USB mouse/kb and modern video outs.
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I don't think I will. I like the classics for what they are. I dont think hardware emulation will "feel" the same.
That will then all be in the head. I guess if you don't see the computer itself you would have a hard time making a difference between a real A1200 and a FPGA based amiga.
greets,
Staf.
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natami look really promising. with aros 68k on its side everything should be fine.
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I'm planning on getting the FPGA Arcade. Natami looks great, but overpowered for what I want it for (games mainly.)
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That will then all be in the head. I guess if you don't see the computer itself you would have a hard time making a difference between a real A1200 and a FPGA based amiga.
greets,
Staf.
So, a sort of "Turing Test" for the Amiga. ;-)
I kinda think of the FPGA Amigas as the modern version of that monstrous multi-board wire-wrapped prototype from back in the Elder Days.
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So, a sort of "Turing Test" for the Amiga. ;-)
"You look down and see a tortoise, Amiga. It's crawling toward you... " (maybe to obscure a quote?)
For myself my apps and games are fine on an 030, but I watch a lot of demo's, so i'd really like some 060 beef. And RTG of course.
To my mind, if it runs most Amiga software, and there is no other underlying OS getting in the way, then it's pretty much an Amiga.
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Yes, definitely. Will be getting an FPGAArcade for sure - I want to get back into bitmap graphics with PPaint and DPaint V, and also coding games (if I get the time).
It would be neat if the FPGAArcade had an RTG compatible screen mode - even if it's only a 256 colour chunky - or possibly graffiti compatible but I don't know too much about programming for that.
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I chose "That thing that you cook in a pan" because it's the only answer that really capture the true meaning of the question.
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@Persia
Just curious, but do you *ever* say anything that isnt negative ? Apart from things Apple related that is.
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They're nice but I have 100s of games I want to keep playing/testing on disk so only after I have all the other Amigas I want/need.
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They're nice but I have 100s of games I want to keep playing/testing on disk so only after I have all the other Amigas I want/need.
Just saying, Natami boots software from floppy just like any other classic does :)
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"You look down and see a tortoise, Amiga. It's crawling toward you... " (maybe to obscure a quote?).
Since when has Blade Runner been obscure? ;)
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Natami interests me, especially the new SuperAGA games...and new screenmodes, at last I can use lots of colors on Workbench without the AGA slowing things down. And I want native screenmodes, I never liked RTG, it always felt like something alien to the system. My pc is for graphic cards. :)
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Alien to the system ? They existed before AGA. Heck they existed before ECS. RTG is so much better an experience than custom chipsets. As for superaga, it might be better than AGA(not hard) but I doubt it'll come close to an RTG system. As for new software, I wouldnt hold your breath minus a few showpieces.
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Alien to the system ? They existed before AGA. Heck they existed before ECS. RTG is so much better an experience than custom chipsets. As for superaga, it might be better than AGA(not hard) but I doubt it'll come close to an RTG system. As for new software, I wouldnt hold your breath minus a few showpieces.
Agreed. While I might be running most of my games in OCS/ECS/AGA screenmodes, I couldn't life without RTG for Workbench, word processing, web surfing, etc which is probably why I tend to ignore my A1200s.
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It's "funny" though. To program I much prefer ocs/ecs/aga, and I like the idea of seeing what results can be obtained from such a limited source as the custom chipsets, and I enjoy lots of custom chipset games and so on, but for anything remotely serious and/or system friendly (including games that support it) RTG is soooo much better that theyre incomparable. Im not sure some people understand just what a drastic improvement an rtg card is.
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Alien to the system ? They existed before AGA. Heck they existed before ECS. RTG is so much better an experience than custom chipsets. As for superaga, it might be better than AGA(not hard) but I doubt it'll come close to an RTG system. As for new software, I wouldnt hold your breath minus a few showpieces.
I doesn't matter to me when those existed, it's just that I like the custom chipset way. I believe SuperAGA will come close to an RTG system, but time will tell.
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If you don't like rtg set it to 256 colour. I'm pretty hooked on 1024x768 for my desktop, but for the games I'm doing 640x480 x 256 is easy and I will be able to translate them to Amiga AGA.
I don't think the classic Amiga needs 24-bit, but in a few years we should up the minimum spec anyway.
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I would like a Natami....
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Just saying, Natami boots software from floppy just like any other classic does :)
That's fantastic news :) I still want an A3000 and a replacement 2000 sometime this year so probably wont have any cash to spare in 2011.
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I would love a Natami and a FPGA Arcade, but I can't afford either and probably never will be able to, so I can't answer the poll.
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That's fantastic news :) I still want an A3000 and a replacement 2000 sometime this year so probably wont have any cash to spare in 2011.
I have a couple of spare A2000's. If you are looking for one contact me via PMail or email. I already sold all my A3000D's, but I might sell my A3000T, if I get an offer I can't refuse.
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I'm interested in NatAmi, since it provides backwards compatibility but, even more important, Amiga-like architecture and improvements over past chipsets.
Hope the target price will be ok (IMHO around 200/250 EUR) and there will be some software for demonstrating the new capabilities.
BY!
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I think I will, I just don't know which. I sure hope the programming of the custom chips is done well. I would think the "feel" should be a few steps beyond the pure software emulation, likes of WinUAE / Colanto AF.
The Minimig turned out really good, yes (don't have one)? Any lessons learned from that?
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I'd like to build a minimig, but I am totally swamped with college right now. Course I'd like to do some Aros programming to but I have zero time for that right now.
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Since when has Blade Runner been obscure? ;)
Personally, I prefer the book that that movie was derived from.
If I want power, I'll stick with PPC or X86.
For 68K based Amiga software, the FPGA Replay Board looks ideal.
The Natami is likely to suffer the same problem that plagues most niche system, while it will run legacy software, the number of new packages developed specifically for it may be limited.
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The Natami is likely to suffer the same problem that plagues most niche system, while it will run legacy software, the number of new packages developed specifically for it may be limited.
That may be true, but if they produce proper drivers it'll still benefit from the improved graphics modes for the base system for RTG friendly apps, and the performance will still benefit most old M68k apps, and if they get decent compiler support for their new instructions for N68050/68070 they might get even more substantial performance boosts.
There's clearly still quite a few classic users that refuse to consider an x86 or PPC system that would still like those performance boosts, and for whom the boost they might get from a Natami might be enough to let them stay with a M68k compatible system for much longer.
It seems the Replay will be perfect for a low end classic replacement for a lot of people, while Natami will push the performance boundary - I think there's plenty of room for both. Neither need huge sales numbers to be viable and both will benefit as FPGA prices go down and size and performance keeps going up.
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I'm interested in NatAmi, since it provides backwards compatibility but, even more important, Amiga-like architecture and improvements over past chipsets.
Hope the target price will be ok (IMHO around 200/250 EUR) and there will be some software for demonstrating the new capabilities.
BY!
I think 200/250 EUR for the Natami is completely unrealistic. That's the range that's been indicated for the FPGA Arcade. I'd be surprised (pleasantly so...) if the Natami ends up at or below 600-800 EUR.
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I never bought one, but I was loaned a MiniMig from ACube to help develop new cores. However they sent me one with a PIC without TinyBootloader and so I couldn't reprogram it. They said they would send a replacement PIC but never did and it has sat on the shelf in the office ever since.
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There have been some comments on here about
"hardware emulation not feeling the same"
Not true. In theory, the FPGA clones are "identical" at a hardware level from the originals - they function at a gate level in exactly the same way as the original chips. Well, bugs apart of course.
/MikeJ
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There have been some comments on here about
"hardware emulation not feeling the same"
Not true. In theory, the FPGA clones are "identical" at a hardware level from the originals - they function at a gate level in exactly the same way as the original chips. Well, bugs apart of course.
/MikeJ
Right, "they function at a gate level" - I think a lot of us still could use a boot camp course in what a FPGA is / does. My instinct is to view an FPGA as a super advanced EPROM. What is a good site to read up FPGA, and please don't give me the Google bit. You all start sounding like that Star Trek episode; machine do all, machine provide everything...
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Agreed. While I might be running most of my games in OCS/ECS/AGA screenmodes, I couldn't life without RTG for Workbench, word processing, web surfing, etc which is probably why I tend to ignore my A1200s.
I don't see the point myself in RTG for the Amiga, to me part of the whole charm of the Amiga is getting the best out of it's limited palette and screen modes... :)
RTG when you look at some of the screenshots folk place on the web just make it look like a poor version of a Mac and take away that feeling that your actually using a real Amiga... :(
Be nice to see what the new screenmodes of the NatAmi can do but I think it's more important that if the NatAMi takes off then at least programmers will have a de-facto standard to start writing new stuff for... :)
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So I understand the AGA FPGA Replay board is built upon a Spartan FPGA board. So what is Natami made from? Is it completely homebrew? Or built upon something? I don't get that.
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In theory, the FPGA clones are "identical" at a hardware level from the originals - they function at a gate level in exactly the same way as the original chips.
In theory yes. In practice no. But you know this ;)
Because the original schematics & netlists of the CBM chips have been lost over time. The FPGA contents are all re-interpretations by their various authors of how the Amiga hardware worked taken from the various specifications and from observations using logic analysers etc. Lots of information was undocumented and slowly comes out over time in the form of incompatabilities.
The guts of the original MiniMig especially does not work (buses etc.) how the original Amiga worked.
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In theory yes. In practice no. But you know this ;)
Because the original schematics & netlists of the CBM chips have been lost over time. The FPGA contents are all re-interpretations by their various authors of how the Amiga hardware worked taken from the various specifications and from observations using logic analysers etc. Lots of information was undocumented and slowly comes out over time in the form of incompatabilities.
The guts of the original MiniMig especially does not work (buses etc.) how the original Amiga worked.
Thanks Alex, I was hoping you would jump in!
Alex and I both work in ASIC design, by the way.
I am in a bar in China, so if this doesn't make any sense, sorry.
Alex, forgive the simplifications here...
The original custom chips (including CPU) are made of a whole bunch of logic gates which together give the functionality of the original hardware. An FPGA is a soft chip, meaning it has a lot of gates which can be configured by a downloaded file. So, it can behave as any sort of chip if you know at a very low level how it works.
Today we use "high" level languages, such as VHDL or Verilog to write the design. This is not software, it is a description of how the circuit should look - like a circuit diagram. The design tools take this code and build a file which when loaded into the FPGA makes the circuit you describe.
If you know exactly how the original chips were designed, you can make a perfect copy.. well, for most cases of perfect.
For the Atari chips, and some CPUs we have scans of the chips which means we can re-create the exact same logic.
http://www.visual6502.org is a good example.
However, often we simplify things because the original chips were constrained by the pins on the devices, so they split the design between a number of chips. We don't need to do this, and we can make some other simplifications.
So, an FPGA Amiga in an ideal world contains the same circuit as the original, has the same bugs, same timing etc.
Yes, the Replay board uses a Spartan3e FPGA. This is a low end device (hence the low cost of the board) but is still capable of running at clock speeds of 200MHz plus inside if the design is optimised for the architecture.
/MikeJ
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Thanks Alex, I was hoping you would jump in!
Alex and I both work in ASIC design, by the way.
I am in a bar in China, so if this doesn't make any sense, sorry.
Alex, forgive the simplifications here...
The original custom chips (including CPU) are made of a whole bunch of logic gates which together give the functionality of the original hardware. An FPGA is a soft chip, meaning it has a lot of gates which can be configured by a downloaded file. So, it can behave as any sort of chip if you know at a very low level how it works.
Today we use "high" level languages, such as VHDL or Verilog to write the design. This is not software, it is a description of how the circuit should look - like a circuit diagram. The design tools take this code and build a file which when loaded into the FPGA makes the circuit you describe.
If you know exactly how the original chips were designed, you can make a perfect copy.. well, for most cases of perfect.
For the Atari chips, and some CPUs we have scans of the chips which means we can re-create the exact same logic.
http://www.visual6502.org is a good example.
However, often we simplify things because the original chips were constrained by the pins on the devices, so they split the design between a number of chips. We don't need to do this, and we can make some other simplifications.
So, an FPGA Amiga in an ideal world contains the same circuit as the original, has the same bugs, same timing etc.
Yes, the Replay board uses a Spartan3e FPGA. This is a low end device (hence the low cost of the board) but is still capable of running at clock speeds of 200MHz plus inside if the design is optimised for the architecture.
/MikeJ
Damn Mike, that was pretty good for coming from a bar in China, very helpful! :)
So, in some places, we may be lacking information about a chip, a design. But say a year / two down the road we (community) get some new data, info is released for whatever reason; you know where I'm going with this... Can we update / fix our FPGA implementation ("field programmable" part would suggest yes...) But maybe not for most.
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What's an FPGA AMiGA?
Sorry...I've been out-of-the-loop for the past 11 years. :(
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What's an FPGA AMiGA?
Sorry...I've been out-of-the-loop for the past 11 years. :(
Welcome back Chris, well that's sorta what were talking about, what is it? But for you to get a footing, I'd read upon what the Minimig is all about. Wikipedia minimig...
In short, it's very cool.
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So I understand the AGA FPGA Replay board is built upon a Spartan FPGA board. So what is Natami made from? Is it completely homebrew? Or built upon something? I don't get that.
Both the Replay and Natami are custom boards. The original minimig used a stock Spartan 3 development board with two hand built boards for the CPU and the PIC system controller.
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I never bought one, but I was loaned a MiniMig from ACube to help develop new cores. However they sent me one with a PIC without TinyBootloader and so I couldn't reprogram it. They said they would send a replacement PIC but never did and it has sat on the shelf in the office ever since.
I wish you told me that. I replaced my PIC with an ARM controller so I could have sent you mine.
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There have been some comments on here about
"hardware emulation not feeling the same"
Not true. In theory, the FPGA clones are "identical" at a hardware level from the originals - they function at a gate level in exactly the same way as the original chips. Well, bugs apart of course.
/MikeJ
FPGA clones can be identical, if they implement the same logic as the original. However nobody has done this, the fpga replacements may function at a gate level but they aren't even conceptually the same gates as the originals had. If you could decap an agnus and then copy & paste that onto an fpga then you'd have a point, but you know it's not that easy.
I'm not against fpga amigas, I love the work you've done on the fpga arcade & the natami sounds really exciting (I just hope it lives up to it).
However I don't know how to reconcile the difference between a 15khz crt and a hdtv, even though an amiga with 1080p output would be cool. I guess this is why the natami is going for amiga compatible but no compromises when looking at what they can do to improve it. While the fpga arcade is more about the original experience, to me that means 15khz video and noisy paula output (and a filter connected to the power led).
For instance I prefer the 1541 Ultimate 2 to the chameleon because I can't see why anyone would want to connect a c64 to a vga monitor.
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What advantage do FPGA Amigas have over UAE Amigas?
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to me part of the whole charm of the Amiga is getting the best out of it's limited palette and screen modes... :)
Amiga A1200 does not have a limited palette.
Its palette is 16.7 million colors the same as your bgcPC or mac.
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What advantage do FPGA Amigas have over UAE Amigas?
Simplicity, and you don't have to cart around a PC for starters.
I use Amiga Forever and a Minimig. The Minimig "feels" like my real Amigas with regards to booting, responses and that lovely ability to attach "Atari" joysticks to the ports. One look at UAE's configuation menu is enough to put you off. :)
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I ordered an FPGA based Gameduino. It doesn't have processing power for a computer yet but I wish to learn how it works to expand on it. It has 256 Sprites. I wish the Amiga had that!
•video output is 400x300 pixels in 512 colors
•all color processed internally at 15-bit precision
•compatible with any standard VGA monitor (800x600 @ 72Hz)
•background graphics
◦512x512 pixel character background
◦256 characters, each with independent 4 color palette
◦pixel-smooth X-Y wraparound scroll
•foreground graphics
◦each sprite is 16x16 pixels with per-pixel transparency
◦each sprite can use 256, 16 or 4 colors
◦four-way rotate and flip
◦96 sprites per scan-line, 1536 texels per line
◦pixel-perfect sprite collision detection
•audio output is a stereo 12-bit frequency synthesizer
•64 independent voices 10-8000 Hz
•per-voice sine wave or white noise
•sample playback channel
Watch the video at:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2084212109/gameduino-an-arduino-game-adapter
If you want one, you only have until Wednesday Mar 30, 9:05am EDT.
You could expand the computer platforms by being involved.
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Since a few months I am back to the scene.
So far I have got a Minimig (waiting for its ARM controller) and pre-ordered a FPGArcade :)
On top of them I will keep using my A1200+ACA1230 and wish to buy one Indivision AGA of the second batch, when they areready.
Regarding the Natami, depending on the performance of the Replay card I would evaluate whether to buy it.
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I liked my Basic 2MB Minimig that much I had to purchase a second 4MB Minimig and an ARM addon board to go with it :-)
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I ordered an FPGA based Gameduino. It doesn't have processing power for a computer yet but I wish to learn how it works to expand on it. It has 256 Sprites. I wish the Amiga had that!
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It's a really nice little design that actually, I compiled it for the Replay board. I need to modify the memory,audio and video interfaces to make it actually work however.
The FPGA itself doesn't do that much, all the clever stuff needs to be done in the external CPU - the ARM in my case.
I'll mail the guy and see if he is happy for me to release a port.
Best,
MikeJ
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I think 200/250 EUR for the Natami is completely unrealistic. That's the range that's been indicated for the FPGA Arcade. I'd be surprised (pleasantly so...) if the Natami ends up at or below 600-800 EUR.
Maybe you're right... I didn't check precisely what's hardware it's "inside" NatAmi (it was just a thought about a very attractive price for being successfull).
Anyway if you are right about 700/800 EUR, I'm sorry but I won't buy it!
_I_ think the maximum target price NatAmi may be "good selling" (in Amiga terms, of course) could be something around 450 EUR (anyway less than 500 EUR), if supported by convincing performance/features/enthusiasm.
...even just the plain board (if it's a matter of adding case, drive, keyboard, mouse and so on).
This is my personal opinion, of course...
...but I think I'm that far from reality (see how many Sam boards have been sold, since their price - even if it's a bit different).
BY!
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_I_ think the maximum target price NatAmi may be "good selling" (in Amiga terms, of course) could be something around 450 EUR (anyway less than 500 EUR), if supported by convincing performance/features/enthusiasm.
...even just the plain board (if it's a matter of adding case, drive, keyboard, mouse and so on).
Who knows, maybe it's possible. And time is in their favor - FPGA prices is one of their major cost issues, but FPGA prices are steadily dropping, so maybe they'll get below the 500 mark eventually.
But I think it'll sell in ok numbers (for the Amiga market anyway) - the cost if you want to fully kit out a classic to get even within striking distance of a Natami is pretty steep, and there must be a decent number of crumbling heavily expanded classics out there still aching for replacement.
Pricing out an A1200 mobo only + Indivision AGA mk2 + Subway USB controller + ACA1230/42 gets you to about 470 EUR at Vesalia, and those items aren't even all available, and the 1230/42 will crawl in comparison, and the Natami has SuperAGA, ethernet etc.
You'd be hard pressed to even kit out a classic to similar(ish) specs without resorting to used hardware, and even then you'd likely end up with a big box Amiga with tons of aging and potentially unstable and expensive expansion cards.
If they can beat the fastest expanded classics, I believe there'll be a reasonable number of takers even if they end up at a 700+ EUR price point.
Of course "reasonable" in this case is pretty small. I'm sure the Replay board will be outselling them with a very high factor (not least because it's open and will come with a bunch of cores for other classic computers as well), for example. The Natami is catering for a very specific niche.
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Indeed, an FPGAArcade at around £200 + case + PSU is well worth it for what it provides.
A Natami, if the 68050 performs as well as it is hoped to perform, will also be worth it for people that need higher performance out of their Amiga. A smaller market for sure, but the more powerful FPGA will cost more, and then there's the second FPGA on board as well.
Btw, case makers - make sure you leave space for a 2.5" hard drive in the Natami case designs!
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Of course "reasonable" in this case is pretty small. I'm sure the Replay board will be outselling them with a very high factor (not least because it's open and will come with a bunch of cores for other classic computers as well), for example. The Natami is catering for a very specific niche.
Yes as the owner of a BlizzzardPPC/060 equipped A1200 Tower with a mediator, subway and a hole lot of other addons, I can say that I now use my Sam440 and Minimig more mainly because they are both more stable solutions probably down to the ageing of my A1200 hardware.
But nether completely replaces my A1200 setup which I still use from time to time but in combination they come very close do doing just that for me.
And if and when my ageing 060 card fails I will probably look at replacing the A1200Tower with FPGA solution that gives me good AGA, CGX support network support and 040 or better levels of 68k performance, but I am not looking for a new hardware solution this year.
I do have to say though that my minimig feels like a real A500 for playing games on in a way that WinUAE and UAE on my sam440 just cant beat, thats not to say that I dont like and use WinUAE as well, it just feels different.
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A bit off topic: Those of you who are into FPGA Amigas will probably enjoy this approach where somebody built a Minimig out of parts mostly taken from a butchered Cisco switch:
http://www.a1k.org/forum/showthread.php?t=26187
EDIT: be warned, this is not for people who suffer from cable phobia. ;)