Amiga.org
Operating System Specific Discussions => MorphOS => MorphOS -- Application questions and support => Topic started by: takemehomegrandma on March 25, 2011, 05:18:37 PM
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For those who doesn't know; there is a never-ending thread over at MorphZone.org where people reports their newly acquired MorphOS serial numbers.
Koszer made a graph (http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=14&topic_id=5875&sortname=&sortorder=&sortdays=&viewmode=flat&order=0&start=184) based on that info, and it's kind of interesting:
(http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/4671/wykres.png)
:)
(To future MorphOS users - please post your serial number in the MorphOS counter thread (http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=14&topic_id=5875&sortname=&sortorder=&sortdays=&viewmode=flat&order=0&start=0)! :) )
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~1100 users?
Much less than I'd thought there would be. Very disappointing! :(
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~1100 users?
Much less than I'd thought there would be. Very disappointing! :(
I would hope it would be more, too. You can bet that the active base is less than the total amount of licenses sold, as a certain percentage of the early licenses would no longer be in use.
Also there are users who hold more than one license.
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disapiointing? given the amount of active members, poll entries and downloads i would count somewhere about 300 active users for os4, about the same for advanced 68k, not counting unexpanded/gaming crowd. and aros scoring under 100 serious users atm, mos of them devs themselves. i even think mos registration thread exaggerate the actual numbers as many registered might drop it by the time. realistic number should be divided by half at least i think.
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~1100 users?
Much less than I'd thought there would be. Very disappointing! :(
There are even less users i think as most of them have 2 or 3 registered computers.
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disapiointing? given the amount of active members, poll entries and downloads i would count somewhere about 300 active users for os4, about the same for advanced 68k, not counting unexpanded/gaming crowd. and aros scoring under 100 serious users atm, mos of them devs themselves. i even think mos registration thread exaggerate the actual numbers as many registered might drop it by the time. realistic number should be divided by half at least i think.
Yes, disappointing.
I doubt the numbers will increase, more likely that they will decrease over time.
Disappointing indeed.
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disapiointing? given the amount of active members, poll entries and downloads i would count somewhere about 300 active users for os4, about the same for advanced 68k, not counting unexpanded/gaming crowd. and aros scoring under 100 serious users atm, mos of them devs themselves. i even think mos registration thread exaggerate the actual numbers as many registered might drop it by the time. realistic number should be divided by half at least i think.
Well obviously all of us would like higher numbers for all groups, OS 3.x, OS4.x, MorphOS, AROS.
After all, many programs run on all the above platforms, so more users for any group can only help other groups and interest in general.
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Yes, disappointing.
I doubt the numbers will increase, more likely that they will decrease over time.
Disappointing indeed.
As its been increasing over time I expect it to continue.
Once Powerbook support is introduced, Amiga users looking for a laptop will have that option.
With that and possible Apple G5 support I can only see the user base increasing.
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No way to count the cheap bastards that don't mind rebooting every 30 minutes.
:)
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"i would count somewhere about 300 active users for os4, about the same for advanced 68k, not counting unexpanded/gaming crowd"
I think you are seriously underestimating the numbers of 68K users, especially if you are counting forum posts/polls. France, germany, scandinavia and spain all have thriving intenet communities. Many of them don't post on english forums.
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As its been increasing over time I expect it to continue.
Once Powerbook support is introduced, Amiga users looking for a laptop will have that option.
With that and possible Apple G5 support I can only see the user base increasing.
Licenses yes, new users no.
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"i would count somewhere about 300 active users for os4, about the same for advanced 68k, not counting unexpanded/gaming crowd"
I think you are seriously underestimating the numbers of 68K users, especially if you are counting forum posts/polls. France, germany, scandinavia and spain all have thriving intenet communities. Many of them don't post on english forums.
I'd guesstimate that the number of active 68k users outnumbers OS4, Morphos and AROS users combined.
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disapiointing? given the amount of active members, poll entries and downloads i would count somewhere about 300 active users for os4, about the same for advanced 68k, not counting unexpanded/gaming crowd. and aros scoring under 100 serious users atm, mos of them devs themselves.
I'm with you here.
MorphOS probably has 2x the amount of AROS and OS4 users combined (and I'm not saying that this graph reflects the amount of users, only registrations *sold*).
If the numbers seems disappointing to some people, I think they may have had an unrealistic view of the overall "state of the nation". And it may have been because I had a more "realistic" view of the Amiga situation in 2011 (there is *no real market*) that I think this graph is *excellent*! ;)
And you can read out a change in the trend as well; like how *the slope* of the curve chanbes after the Mac support was introduced. Cheap and easily obtainable hardware (although still PPC)! :)
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Licenses yes, new users no.
I am a relatively new user, having only adopted MOS once Powermac support was introduced. I have several contacts that would like to use MorphOS to develop software under that I am working with to set up hardware. None of these people are former MorphOS licensees.
Simply stated, there are more MorphOS users than there are OS4 users or AROS users. And you yourself know why, its a better product.
However, I too believe there are more 68K users than stated, and there are a lot more former 68K Amiga users, so the potential base to grow from is there (as long as we don't have to count on Franko).
Why so negative Nicholas? I know you've used MorphOS and have stated you'd prefer it over AOS4.
Can't you tell by that graph that the rate of license purchases is up?
Just from that you can infer that there are new users as a stagnant user base would result in a relatively flat graph.
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I'm with you here.
MorphOS probably has 2x the amount of AROS and OS4 users combined (and I'm not saying that this graph reflects the amount of users, only registrations *sold*).
I can tell you right now that it doesn't.
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As its been increasing over time I expect it to continue.
Once Powerbook support is introduced, Amiga users looking for a laptop will have that option.
With that and possible Apple G5 support I can only see the user base increasing.
I think powerbook will render another bump in the graph (mostly because of additional sales to already established users, and because the joining of people from "other camps"), but I don't think a G5 would have as big effect. But maybe it will. ;)
But growth in sales doesn't come from growth of the total "market" (that is probably shrinking), but from already established users getting a second (or indeed a third) copy for some new type of HW they like (like me having a license or Pegasos2 and getting another for Mac Mini because that HW is so much better), as well as people from other "camps" either migrating or "getting both". I think the latter will increase! :)
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I think if you compare it to users of other hobbyist systems such as Haiku, RISC OS, Syllable etc, then it's not a bad figure at all.
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If the numbers seems disappointing to some people, I think they may have had an unrealistic view of the overall "state of the nation". And it may have been because I had a more "realistic" view of the Amiga situation in 2011 (there is *no real market*) that I think this graph is *excellent*! ;)
And you can read out a change in the trend as well; like how *the slope* of the curve chanbes after the Mac support was introduced. Cheap and easily obtainable hardware (although still PPC)! :)
Yeah, I'm actually quite surprised that there are over 1,100 registered users. That is quite a bit more than I would have expected. And yeah, the jumps for each supported hardware added do show that there is interest there. Even for an OS that costs more than the hardware it's running on. It's very interesting. I've ALMOST bought MorphOS a few different times, myself, even though I really don't have any idea what I'd use it for.
(And I do agree with a previous poster, and I also suspect there are more 68k users than all MOS, AOS4, and AROS combined. (A lot of people isolated by distance, language, etc.))
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I am a relatively new user, having only adopted MOS once Powermac support was introduced. I have several contacts that would like to use MorphOS to develop software under that I am working with to set up hardware. None of these people are former MorphOS licensees.
Simply stated, there are more MorphOS users than there are OS4 users or AROS users. And you yourself know why, its a better product.
However, I too believe there are more 68K users than stated, and there are a lot more former 68K Amiga users, so the potential base to grow from is there (as long as we don't have to count on Franko).
Why so negative Nicholas? I know you've used MorphOS and have stated you'd prefer it over AOS4.
Can't you tell by that graph that the rate of license purchases is up?
Just from that you can infer that there are new users as a stagnant user base would result in a relatively flat graph.
Well, it's like this I guess; when you expect the worst you can never be disappointed. :)
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No way to count the cheap bastards that don't mind rebooting every 30 minutes.
:)
Indeed! :)
MorphOS is actually *very* usable in its unregistered form! 30 minutes isn't that short time, and reboot is extremely fast! (Edit: Wow, I'm really helping MorphOS sales now! ;))
And I still think there are some MorphOS 1.4 users out there as well! MorphOS 2.x isn't available for PowerUP, for example...
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Well, it's like this I guess; when you expect the worst you can never be disappointed. :)
I don't know, with the political system working the way it has in the US for the last several years, I expect the worst and then our politicians surprise me and figure out a way to exceed my worst expectations. So I'm perpetually disappointed.
But over the last year, the developments in MorphOS have been a pleasant surprise. I only hope the developers can introduce all that they've hinted at.
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(And I do agree with a previous poster, and I also suspect there are more 68k users than all MOS, AOS4, and AROS combined.
*Real Users*, or collectors/enthusiasts/nostalgics/etc that do have the stuff, but spends all of their time talking about it on Amiga.org? ;) :p
MorphOS is usable for "real". It even has a web browser that beats the current Internet Explorer in some areas (like CSS3)! :)
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*Real Users*, or collectors/enthusiasts/nostalgics/etc that do have the stuff, but spends all of their time talking about it on Amiga.org? ;) :p
MorphOS is usable for "real". It even has a web browser that beats the current Internet Explorer in some areas (like CSS3)! :)
Yes, in that regard you've got a point. I miss Flash support under OWB, but its a pretty good browser. And MorphOS is modern enough to provide the functionality I need for everyday use.
I hope AOS4 has a similar level of utility (I wouldn't know personally).
AROS certainly has a lot of programs available, so one day it may be mature enough to interest me.
And I suppose you could try to use a legacy Amiga as your primary system, especially if you were into pain.
But I suspect most 68K owners are as you stated either collectors, retro hobbyists, or just nostalgic for the "old days".
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I think powerbook will render another bump in the graph (mostly because of additional sales to already established users, and because the joining of people from "other camps"), but I don't think a G5 would have as big effect. But maybe it will. ;)
But growth in sales doesn't come from growth of the total "market" (that is probably shrinking), but from already established users getting a second (or indeed a third) copy for some new type of HW they like (like me having a license or Pegasos2 and getting another for Mac Mini because that HW is so much better), as well as people from other "camps" either migrating or "getting both". I think the latter will increase! :)
I have MOS 2.0. But I am going to wait for last in the line of MOS hardware : The powerbook.
I dont want to throw away money on the mid range hardware\license.
sorry to see this downgoing spiral
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I have MOS 2.0. But I am going to wait for last in the line of MOS hardware : The powerbook.
I dont want to throw away money on the mid range hardware\license.
sorry to see this downgoing spiral
Ditto.
Though I might fork out for a license on my wife's eMac if she decides she likes MorphOS enough.
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*Real Users*, or collectors/enthusiasts/nostalgics/etc that do have the stuff, but spends all of their time talking about it on Amiga.org? ;) :p
MorphOS is usable for "real". It even has a web browser that beats the current Internet Explorer in some areas (like CSS3)! :)
I'd say both real users and collectors/retro nerds. I mean, the original 68k models sold millions. It's surely not unthinkable that 0.05% of them are still out there functioning every day. Tucked away in remote areas, still running whatever little custom thing they were purchased for. That's still going to be more than the couple thousand "modern" systems.
I don't disagree that MorphOS is much more usable as a desktop system. But then again, there are a lot of systems a lot more usable than MorphOS, too. When modernizing, why would someone stop at that particular point?
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*Real Users*, or collectors/enthusiasts/nostalgics/etc that do have the stuff, but spends all of their time talking about it on Amiga.org? ;) :p
MorphOS is usable for "real". It even has a web browser that beats the current Internet Explorer in some areas (like CSS3)! :)
Now now, no need to slate where your from, just because you decided to moved away ;)
Besides, I still use AOS in my day to day work, thanks very much!
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Retro Amiga works great as a retro video editing workstation.
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No way to count the cheap bastards that don't mind rebooting every 30 minutes.
:)
Or the even cheaper bastards with hacked copies.
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Two things that will help sales...
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Improved support for classic apps that run on OS4, but crash on MorphOS. I.E. OctaMED SS.
And or JIT for UAE.
2
Powerbook & wireless support.
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Another way to look at the graph is that the number of Morphos registrations has almost doubled during the last 2 years.
Myself, I've acquired a G4 MDD 1.25Ghz, and just need to spend the time to install and troubleshoot before I can join the party. Adding Powermac support has allowed the userbase to grow.
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Another way to look at the graph is that the number of Morphos registrations has almost doubled during the last 2 years.
Or you could say that more people will by an OS if they can actually have some hardware to run it on. :)
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Or you could say that more people will by an OS if they can actually have some hardware to run it on. :)
Ha! That's hitting the nail on its head. before Mac support, you had a choice between the Pegasos and the Efika (the later underpowered and with limited memory, the former out of production for the last five years).
And Macs are cheap or free so its easy to try the Os and then buy it if you like it (a pretty good marketing method).
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Ha! That's hitting the nail on its head. before Mac support, you had a choice between the Pegasos and the Efika (the later underpowered and with limited memory, the former out of production for the last five years).
And Macs are cheap or free so its easy to try the Os and then buy it if you like it (a pretty good marketing method).
Yep, I have an Efika and the reason I haven't purchased a copy of MorphOS is because it is too underpowered to use it properly. Shame really because it is such a tiny board.
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Yep, I have an Efika and the reason I haven't purchased a copy of MorphOS is because it is too underpowered to use it properly. Shame really because it is such a tiny board.
I do not understand why Genesi didn't give that board more memory or make the memory upgradable.
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I do not understand why Genesi didn't give that board more memory or make the memory upgradable.
That was my only gripe about the board. I can understand the lack of CPU power because it was a low-end board based on what was available on the market at the time and meant to be cheap to encourage sales. However, the surface mounted memory with no expansion option was a real design blunder.
I think that at the end of the day it was a board designed for simple automated business use (cash registers, monitoring devices, etc) and not really for a home user running applications on a modern OS.
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The only thing that is going to significantly increase the sales (or use) of MorphOS2.x, AmigaOS4.x, or AROS, is the availability of quality software that everyone wants to run on those OSes. If we can't get more developers and good software to run, all of these systems are just a curiosity to most other people and aren't much more than that even to hard core Amiga users that want to move on to something more advanced, but still Amiga related.
I know that there is already some good software for all of the above OSes, but we need so much more and better software to be considered by most computer users.
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Very interesting, id like to point out though people posting in forums and people having registered a copy does not necessarily go hand in hand of course, id expect the number not the be dividable at all, you cant assume that every morphos user will have a morphzone account any more then every windows user having a hotmail account. The fact is this reflects the number of registered users posting and registered and bothering to post so on morphzone. Meaning you could easily probably double the number. However as some point out there are probably way more 68k users out there then ppc, simply given availability. It would be interesting to know the number of downloads for the ISO, and total active regardless of A(ISH)OSy
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That was my only gripe about the board. I can understand the lack of CPU power because it was a low-end board based on what was available on the market at the time and meant to be cheap to encourage sales. However, the surface mounted memory with no expansion option was a real design blunder.
I think that at the end of the day it was a board designed for simple automated business use (cash registers, monitoring devices, etc) and not really for a home user running applications on a modern OS.
I got into a big argument with one of Genesi's employees while trying to find the answers of why the memory on the Efika could not be added to (as there are solder pads on the bottom of the board just for that purpose). It took almost a week of heated forum postings back and forth to come up with the correct answer (in fact it took a phone call from Bill Buck directly to me at my home to get a straight answer), and the answer was that the firmware of the Efika would have to be modified to have any added RAM recognized and Genesi would not do it without being paid. Nor would they produce any new Efika boards with more RAM installed at the factory unless at least 300 boards were ordered and the price of these 300 upgraded Efika boards would naturally be higher due to the increased amount of RAM installed and the work required to re-write the firmware to recognize the added RAM. The correct RAM that could work with the Efika was said to be difficult to find, which I find to be an odd statement, but suppose it could be true. The Efika board was designed to be able to accept up to 512mb of RAM (in theory), but I don't know if any samples of the board were ever produced with that amount of RAM.
It would be great (although it would be against the terms of use, or what ever the legal term is for the rules that the board was sold with, to alter the firmware, or reverse engineer it) if some person or group would figure out how to alter the Efika's firmware to recognize 128mb, or 256mb of added RAM and find the correct RAM chips to solder to the provided solder pads on the bottom of the board, but it probably will never happen.
The CPU is not too slow for running MorphOS2.x, it is the limit of only 128mb RAM and the slow USB1.1 that are the worst features of the board. The IDE controller is also not the greatest either, but for many uses the Efika running MorphOS2.x is fine, for a low end system. It is comparable to other MorphOS2.x systems, like the difference between an stock A500 and a souped up A4000 w/68060 & 128mb RAM.
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Very interesting, id like to point out though people posting in forums and people having registered a copy does not necessarily go hand in hand of course, id expect the number not the be dividable at all, you cant assume that every morphos user will have a morphzone account any more then every windows user having a hotmail account. The fact is this reflects the number of registered users posting and registered and bothering to post so on morphzone. Meaning you could easily probably double the number. However as some point out there are probably way more 68k users out there then ppc, simply given availability. It would be interesting to know the number of downloads for the ISO, and total active regardless of A(ISH)OSy
Actually Mike, the number of licenses is known because each email sent to confirm the purchase of the MorphOS2.x license has a number in it that identifies how many licenses have been sold, so it has nothing to do with the number of registered users that also post on MorphZone.org. There could be a few that have registered that are not members of MorphZone.org that have a higher number on their license confirmation email, but then as soon as another member of MorphZone.org registers another license, we all would know the new higher number in the email that indicates the total number of purchased licenses.
I hope that makes sense, it is easier to understand than it is to explain in words.
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Hi,
You all made some pretty good points, that is why I use Cloanto's Amiga Forever, the OS may be old, but at least my hardware is great, and it runs like a screaming banshee. I love playing all the old Amiga games on it and it plays doom (some peoples benchmark) at a real nice speed.
So the number of Morphos users doubled, it went from 2 to 4. Just honky doory.
If someone can tell me, will morphos run on an Amiga 1200 with a ppc card. Maybe I will go to the site and do some reading who knows you might get another double if I buy into morphos.
smerf
If it uses a MAC I don't want it in my house, or on my bench.
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I got into a big argument with one of Genesi's employees while trying to find the answers of why the memory on the Efika could not be added to (as there are solder pads on the bottom of the board just for that purpose). It took almost a week of heated forum postings back and forth to come up with the correct answer (in fact it took a phone call from Bill Buck directly to me at my home to get a straight answer), and the answer was that the firmware of the Efika would have to be modified to have any added RAM recognized and Genesi would not do it without being paid. Nor would they produce any new Efika boards with more RAM installed at the factory unless at least 300 boards were ordered and the price of these 300 upgraded Efika boards would naturally be higher due to the increased amount of RAM installed and the work required to re-write the firmware to recognize the added RAM. The correct RAM that could work with the Efika was said to be difficult to find, which I find to be an odd statement, but suppose it could be true. The Efika board was designed to be able to accept up to 512mb of RAM (in theory), but I don't know if any samples of the board were ever produced with that amount of RAM.
It would be great (although it would be against the terms of use, or what ever the legal term is for the rules that the board was sold with, to alter the firmware, or reverse engineer it) if some person or group would figure out how to alter the Efika's firmware to recognize 128mb, or 256mb of added RAM and find the correct RAM chips to solder to the provided solder pads on the bottom of the board, but it probably will never happen.
The CPU is not too slow for running MorphOS2.x, it is the limit of only 128mb RAM and the slow USB1.1 that are the worst features of the board. The IDE controller is also not the greatest either, but for many uses the Efika running MorphOS2.x is fine, for a low end system. It is comparable to other MorphOS2.x systems, like the difference between an stock A500 and a souped up A4000 w/68060 & 128mb RAM.
Wow, that IS interesting. That was a pretty straight forward answer (typical of Bill Buck contrary to what many have said about him).
So there might be answer to this if someone can make sense of the firmware.
The hardware doesn't intimidate me. Can anyone let me know what chips the Efika uses. Can I assume the pads on the bottom of the board are the same as the pads the existing memory is soldered to? Are there any gates, buffers, resistors, capacitors or other components that need to be added along with the memory.
I look into the hardware, then all we need is someone who can enable the extra memory via the firmware.
I assume the board will still work OK (as a 128MB board) with the extra memory installed so maybe we ought to explore this.
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I got into a big argument with one of Genesi's employees while trying to find the answers of why the memory on the Efika could not be added to (as there are solder pads on the bottom of the board just for that purpose). It took almost a week of heated forum postings back and forth to come up with the correct answer (in fact it took a phone call from Bill Buck directly to me at my home to get a straight answer), and the answer was that the firmware of the Efika would have to be modified to have any added RAM recognized and Genesi would not do it without being paid. Nor would they produce any new Efika boards with more RAM installed at the factory unless at least 300 boards were ordered and the price of these 300 upgraded Efika boards would naturally be higher due to the increased amount of RAM installed and the work required to re-write the firmware to recognize the added RAM. The correct RAM that could work with the Efika was said to be difficult to find, which I find to be an odd statement, but suppose it could be true. The Efika board was designed to be able to accept up to 512mb of RAM (in theory), but I don't know if any samples of the board were ever produced with that amount of RAM.
It would be great (although it would be against the terms of use, or what ever the legal term is for the rules that the board was sold with, to alter the firmware, or reverse engineer it) if some person or group would figure out how to alter the Efika's firmware to recognize 128mb, or 256mb of added RAM and find the correct RAM chips to solder to the provided solder pads on the bottom of the board, but it probably will never happen.
The CPU is not too slow for running MorphOS2.x, it is the limit of only 128mb RAM and the slow USB1.1 that are the worst features of the board. The IDE controller is also not the greatest either, but for many uses the Efika running MorphOS2.x is fine, for a low end system. It is comparable to other MorphOS2.x systems, like the difference between an stock A500 and a souped up A4000 w/68060 & 128mb RAM.
Cheers Dave for that interesting information. :)
Damn, it is frustrating to know that the board "could" be modiefied into something more useful. Hell, I had AmigaKit solder extra RAM onto my Minimig v1.1 and some people (braver and more skilled than me) have done it themselves.
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OK smerf
>So the number of Morphos users doubled, it went from 2 to 4. Just honky doory.
No actually the number of registered users is over 1100, with probably several times that number of unregistered users.
>If someone can tell me, will morphos run on an Amiga 1200 with a ppc card. Maybe I will go to the site and do some reading who knows you might get another double if I buy into morphos.
Simple, with a PPC card and RTG graphics, yes. And the 1.X version for legacy Amigas is free.
>If it uses a MAC I don't want it in my house, or on my bench.
I use a Mac to run MorphOS (and I revile Apple too), but it also runs on Genesi's Pegasos and Efika motherboards.
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Wow, that IS interesting. That was a pretty straight forward answer (typical of Bill Buck contrary to what many have said about him).
So there might be answer to this if someone can make sense of the firmware.
The hardware doesn't intimidate me. Can anyone let me know what chips the Efika uses. Can I assume the pads on the bottom of the board are the same as the pads the existing memory is soldered to? Are there any gates, buffers, resistors, capacitors or other components that need to be added along with the memory.
I look into the hardware, then all we need is someone who can enable the extra memory via the firmware.
I assume the board will still work OK (as a 128MB board) with the extra memory installed so maybe we ought to explore this.
If nobody gives you an answer in 3 weeks then PM me and I'll check my board. I'm on a business trip at the moment so I don't have access to it and if I called my wife to look for me then I wouldn't trust her answer.
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If nobody gives you an answer in 3 weeks then PM me and I'll check my board. I'm on a business trip at the moment so I don't have access to it and if I called my wife to look for me then I wouldn't trust her answer.
I can understand that. I can just picture trying to get my wife to identify and read the proper numbers off a board's memory myself and in my mind it comes off looking like a modernized episode of I love Lucy.
If no one PMs me, I'll get back to you. This interests me. I find it difficult to believe the memory would be hard to source.
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I can understand that. I can just picture trying to get my wife to identify and read the proper numbers off a board's memory myself and in my mind it comes off looking like a modernized episode of I love Lucy.
If no one PMs me, I'll get back to you. This interests me. I find it difficult to believe the memory would be hard to source.
I had a quick look online, here's the motherboard and you can see the two surface mounted RAM chips between the CPU and the IDE connector (The Samsun chips - looks like K44511638C-UCB3, but I wouldn't bet on it):
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/directron/efikaabove.jpg
Here's the reverse side with the pads for 2 additional chips:
http://www.ppcnux.de/public/efika/efika_bottom.jpg
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I had a quick look online, here's the motherboard and you can see the two surface mounted RAM chips between the CPU and the IDE connector (The Samsun chips - looks like K44511638C-UCB3, but I wouldn't bet on it):
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/directron/efikaabove.jpg
Here's the reverse side with the pads for 2 additional chips:
http://www.ppcnux.de/public/efika/efika_bottom.jpg
Great shots. Saved them to a folder. May have an answer before you're home. Thanks.
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From a posting a Morphzone (i'm currently a long way from my efika)
I am looking at my 2 Efika RAM chips and I see the following part numbers:
SAMSUNG 643
K4H511638C-UCB3
H5116 CMI297CB(
More info about it here http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=2&topic_id=5377 I remember reading some one had tryed putting more memory with no sucess, I think it was somewhere in this thread but its late here end i'm going to read it all ;)
Gaz
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"i would count somewhere about 300 active users for os4...
downloads of the alpha release of TimberWolf show over 3x that amount & that doesn't include 4.0 users
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Wow, that IS interesting. That was a pretty straight forward answer (typical of Bill Buck contrary to what many have said about him).
So there might be answer to the problem, if someone can make sense of the firmware.
The hardware doesn't intimidate me. Can anyone let me know what chips the Efika uses. Can I assume the pads on the bottom of the board are the same as the pads the existing memory is soldered to? Are there any gates, buffers, resistors, capacitors or other components that need to be added along with the memory.
I look into the hardware, then all we need is someone who can enable the extra memory via the firmware.
I assume the board will still work OK (as a 128MB board) with the extra memory installed so maybe we ought to explore this.
I appreciated the phone conversation with Bill Buck, no matter what other people have had problems with him in the past, he was very straight forward and open with me on the phone. I am sure he, like almost all other businessmen, has his dark side, or sometimes does things that others do not like, but I have no bad history with him or Genesi, so did not prejudge him in any way.
Somone has already tried to add RAM just be finding matching RAM chips and soldering them to the bottom solder pads. It didn't work and he ended up removing them. I would have to re-read his posts to see if it still ran, but only recognized the original 128mb of RAM when he had the additional 128mb soldered to the board.
I am still very interested in having someone solve this problem and figure out how to add at least an additional 128mb of RAM to the Efika, but after the long argument with the Genisi employee who did his best to tell me it was impossible and after getting the straight answer from Bill Buck via phone call, I had given up on this ever happening. The hard part will be altering the firmware without running into any legal problems. I have no doubt that finding RAM chips that will work could be done and I also have no doubt that someone could figure out how to re-flash the firmware to recognize additional RAM. Altering the firmware is prohibited by Genesi, so that is the sticky part.
Since used PPC Mac hardware is so cheap to obtain and the few new Efika boards that are still available are still selling for $99, or more depending on which supplier you can find them from, and the fact that even the slowest supported G4 PowerMac is much faster and has less problems with USB and IDE than the Efika, it does not make much sense for anyone to work on this project. Since the Efika was my first experience with MorphOS and I already have a license for it, I would love to have the chance to upgrade my own Efika to 256mb, or 512mb of RAM, as I love the small form factor and the extreme low power consumption, but even though I would be willing to pay someone a reasonable amount for a solution to adding RAM to my Efika, there is not much money to be made for anyone who figures out how to solve this problem. It would be a project just to do for the challenge of doing it, instead of a way to make extra money. If it can be done and the right RAM chips can be found, I imagine that the solution would also allow people with soldering skills to remove their existing 128mb of RAM and replace it with 256mb on top of the board in it's place and another 256mb on the bottom for a total of 512mb, as altering the firmware to recognize 512mb would be no different than altering it to recognize any other amount of RAM.
So, if anyone wants to take on this project and is not afraid of being sued by Genesi for altering their firmware for the Efika board, please contact me when you have finished and figured it out. I will be the first one in line to get my Efika board upgraded, as long as it doesn't cost me a fortune to do it.
Edit: Here is link to a video about Genesi and firmware for their products, including the 5200b Efika board. I don't know if it has any useful information. http://www.genesi-usa.com/demo/firmware
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The real trick will be figuring out how to alter the firmware.
I wouldn't be particularly worried about patching the firmware.
While some may view this as questionable, as far as I understand it, its completely legal.
Think about it David, when you install a Sonnet upgrade processor card in a Mac you patch the firmware. You know how proprietary Apple can be, but their fine with this. Even modding PS3 or XBOX360 isn't illegal. You can be banned from online services, but you can not be arrested for it.
We don't have to distribute a modified firmware.
We only have to patch it.
This should not involve any legal issues.
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@amigadave
What software are you running that requires more than 128MB?
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downloads of the alpha release of TimberWolf show over 3x that amount & that doesn't include 4.0 users
Oh? I downloaded timberwolf too, allthough I only had 4.0. Didn't really read the requirement list fully...
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downloads of the alpha release of TimberWolf show over 3x that amount & that doesn't include 4.0 users
Yeah, well I tried to get that to run under MorphOS.
So not all downloads were even AOS users.
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Yeah, well I tried to get that to run under MorphOS.
...
huh:confused:..well ok then minus 1 to whatever the figure is now...as for MOS users going to OS4depot.net to get programs well now that's a story for another thread:lol:
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@amigadave
What software are you running that requires more than 128MB?
As I wrote earlier, the Efika with only 128mb RAM runs most MorphOS2.x software pretty well. There are a few games that require more RAM than the Efika has left after booting, which can be about 80mb to 90mb depending on what you have loading when you boot up, plus when browsing the Internet using any browser, you can run low on RAM if you have too many tabbed pages at the same time.
The most common complaint that people have about the Efika is the lack of more RAM, when in actual use the slow USB1.1 and limited IDE interface/connector that won't allow the use of a cable or two devices, is the two problems that limit the Efika's use the most.
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huh:confused:..well ok then minus 1 to whatever the figure is now...as for MOS users going to OS4depot.net to get programs well now that's a story for another thread:lol:
Actually, there are a fair number of AOS4 packages that can be run under MorphOS with a wrapper called OS4Emu. Of course I wasn't really expecting this one to work, but its always fun experimenting.
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@amigadave
What software are you running that requires more than 128MB?
What David mentioned about limiting the number of tabs you can have open would drive me up the wall. I currently have about 35 opened.
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Actually, there are a fair number of AOS4 packages that can be run under MorphOS with a wrapper called OS4Emu. Of course I wasn't really expecting this one to work, but its always fun experimenting.
actually that's pretty cool cause I didn't know MOS has an OS4 emulator & heck experimenting is like 85% of the fun I have with my miggies both my classics & NG:)
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actually that's pretty cool cause I didn't know MOS has an OS4 emulator & heck experimenting is like 85% of the fun I have with my miggies both my classics & NG:)
Its not a full emulator, just a wrapper. Ambient has to be able to handle to Workbench calls or it won't work.
But, yeah, experimenting and figuring out how to make something work is at least half the fun.
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And it should be remembered that this graph is only about registered MorphOS 2.x users, not all MorphOS users.
There are many people still using (regularly or occasionally) free 1.x versions.
For example of my closest local friends, who own Pegasos systems, about 40% have registered MorphOS2 while 60% still use 1.x because it's free and they can't afford keyfile or they are waiting with the decision on which platform they'd eventually register it.
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downloads of the alpha release of TimberWolf show over 3x that amount & that doesn't include 4.0 users
Download statistics are a very bad gauge. Even more with OS4-SW where a lot of those downloads might have happenend with their version of OWB (known to f###up downloads) or with downloads that are so old that people might have done a complete resinstall in the meantime (also not unheard of in OS4-circles).
Add those who don't own OS4.1 but download "just to check".
The whole thing gets 100% pointless if a specific download is missued as an gauge several times (as happened in another case).
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Those numbers are about what I expected.
Kinda puts the situation in perspective.
Obviously, no one is going to get rich off the remains of the Amiga scene.
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Interesting this serial number collection & users counting.
I wish we had knowledge of all variants of Amiga(like)s.
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The real trick will be figuring out how to alter the firmware.
I wouldn't be particularly worried about patching the firmware.
While some may view this as questionable, as far as I understand it, its completely legal.
Think about it David, when you install a Sonnet upgrade processor card in a Mac you patch the firmware. You know how proprietary Apple can be, but their fine with this. Even modding PS3 or XBOX360 isn't illegal. You can be banned from online services, but you can not be arrested for it.
We don't have to distribute a modified firmware.
We only have to patch it.
This should not involve any legal issues.
Since openfirmware can configure memory for Peg2 etc dynamically, I would doubt that the Efika memory is statically programmed in firmware.
However, if going above 256MB, there is a pin on the 5200b which requires bringing up to voltage (or connecting to ground, I forget which). This may be the 'firmware modification' which is referred to.
256MB upgrade should be easier, simply by replacing the current 64MB chips with 128MB ones.
Regards
Rich
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MorphOS probably has 2x the amount of AROS and OS4 users combined (and I'm not saying that this graph reflects the amount of users, only registrations *sold*).
This sounds more like wishful thinking on your part than anything based in reality.
Let's remind ourselves of what your graph represents; it shows serial numbers registered for MorphOS 2.x. For every computer you want to run MorphOS 2.x on, you need a new serial number. Let's imagine someone who was a MorphOS 2.x fan from the start. First, they may have registered a copy of MorphOS 2.x to run on a Pegasos 2. Next, when the Mac Mini release came out, they would have bought another serial for that machine. That's two licenses for one user, and there are probably users who have 3+ licenses. Please note that the licenses are not transferrable, so even if this user didn't use their Pegasos 2 anymore, they wouldn't be able to transfer the license to a new machine.
Using registrations sold as a metric to gauge number of users is not going to be accurate, yet you've used these figures to state MorphOS has '2x the amount of AROS and OS4 users combined'. This is all without understanding how many users AROS and OS4 have. If you're going to make statements like that, you should at least have some understanding about the situation as it stands.
Apart from this, we're still talking small numbers. If you want some platform growth worth talking about, then look to ways we can work together to build a compelling platform, not compete over the small number of users left in the Amiga community.
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This sounds more like wishful thinking on your part than anything based in reality.
I'm not claiming to be sitting on a complete set of statistics here, there simply is no way of knowing for sure, we can only make assumptions and more or less educated guesses.
Sure, some users undoubtedly have multiple MorphOS systems registered (I have 2 myself), but there should also be a lot of people having only ONE registration. Even if the MorphOS hardware is very cheap, MorphOS registrations aren't exactly for free. New users in recent years (that got themselves a, say, PowerMac or Mac Mini as their first MorphOS system) probably won't see a reason to register a second computer of similar kind. This may change when PowerBook support is introduced with the release of MorphOS 3.0, it will be interesting to see how the registration graph develops after that. And you must remember that MorphOS is perfectly usable (without any limitations whatsoever) without a registration, at least for 30 minutes at a time... ;)
There seems to be some sort of general consensus that "a fair number of users" would currently be obtained by dividing the registrations with 2, and I agree, I think it's a fair assumption. This would give around 700 MorphOS users, which is a pretty decent number actually! :)
Timberwolf for OS4 has been downloaded 770 times (http://www.os4depot.net/index.php?function=browse&cat=network/browser) at the moment. I *sincerely doubt* that any active OS4 user haven't downloaded this piece of software by now, given all the hype, all the attention, and the poor browser situation on the OS4 platform in general. It's "the holy grail" in the OS4 world. I think it's fair to assume that close to 100% of all active OS4 users has downloaded Timberwolf now, when almost a month has passed after its release. But don't forget that many active OS4 users today have multiple systems as well, this is not a phenomenon limited to MorphOS. Multiple downloads comes from this. And as has been pointed out, there might be some problems downloading SW using some of the OS4 browsers, resulting in multiple downloads per user simply because of troubles/errors, people will DL it again after re-installing their computer, etc. And (as we have seen in the past), you can't rule out that some people actually makes multiple downloads simply to make a "statement" through these kinds of statistics (especially after numbers have been publicly discussed (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=35248&forum=2&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0)).
Anyway, I think it's a fair assumption to divide that number by *at least* 2 as well, which gives a picture of about half the amount of active OS4 users compared to MorphOS users, meaning some 300-350 people, possibly less.
I don't want to belittle AROS in any way, but MorphOS and OS4 plays in a completely different league. I sincerely believe that very few people (other than the developers and some hardcore enthusiasts, counted in a two-digit number in total) *actually uses it* actively, at least in a comparable manner as MorphOS and OS4 is being used. I think people may download it (various "distros") from time to time out of curiosity, to check out how far it has come since the last time they checked it out.
About 700 active MorphOS users would mean 2x the amount of about 300 active OS4 users coupled with some 50 active AROS users.
But again, your guess is as good as mine...
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I sincerely think that sales of MorphOS licenses will sky rocket when Powerbook support appears in 3.x. It will be the first time ever that a laptop has been able to run an Amiga *compatible OS natively.
*by Amiga compatible I mean binary compatible, obviously Aros is running on laptops for years
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Since KimmoK decided to bump this one year old thread anyway, I take the opportunity to post the latest graph! :)
Here it is:
(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8533/morphosgrowthgraph.png)
The last reported number was #1344, almost exactly a month ago.
I understand how Pegasos1, Pegasos2, and Efika users wanted to upgrade to Mac Mini (and thus get themselves a second license, showing in the visible bump around 30.10.2009), I did so myself.
Some existing users may have decided to purchase a Power Mac to be able to use graphic cards with more memory and/or faster CPU cards (the tiny (is it even there?) bump at 30.10.2010).
I think it's fair to assume that another batch of "multiple licenses" will happen after the MorphOS 3.0/PowerBook release, which will create another noticeable bump in the graph.
Other than that, there is a *steady* growth rate in registrations with about #20 entities per month, or 100 people per half-year. Not a very big number perhaps, but it's a steady growth that isn't directly connected to MorphOS introducing support for new HW. It's a clearly visible trend, spanning over several years. I think most of those registrations comes from Classic users and OS4 users deciding to get themselves a cheap and powerful MorphOS system! :)
It's worth noticing how the *tilt* of the curve (the growth speed) became *visibly steeper* after MorphOS 2.4 (Mac Mini/First Apple HW supported). Conclusion: Supporting a mainstream HW platform like the Apple Mac *was a good decision*, despite the Mac's only being available as second hand. Price *does* matter (hear that Acube and A-EON? ;)), so does the acknowledged quality and low risk of well tried, mainstream stuff, and so does the fact that it's so easy to obtain.
And of course, so does the features, performance and qualities of MorphOS! :D
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@Lando
+1
:)
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And you must remember that MorphOS is perfectly usable (without any limitations whatsoever) without a registration, at least for 30 minutes at a time... ;)
I do not doubt that there are some people who have sampled MorphOS 2.x without paying for it, but you should be careful with making too much of this, as you are likely to undo your own argument. For example, if we class 'OS samplers' as users, then think about what this means for AROS. It's possible to try it out in a VM without too much hassle, which many people have done (not just across the whole Amiga community, but those interested in alternative OS too). Furthermore, AROS is now included in WinUAE, and there will come a time where it'll be bundled with all versions of UAE. Simply put, MorphOS hasn't got a hope in hell of competing with the numbers of people who use UAE, not in its current state anyway, so I wouldn't make too much of the '30 minutes at a time' users.
There seems to be some sort of general consensus that "a fair number of users" would currently be obtained by dividing the registrations with 2, and I agree, I think it's a fair assumption. This would give around 700 MorphOS users, which is a pretty decent number actually! :)
Okay, let's say for argument's sake that there are 700 people who have at least one registered copy of MorphOS. I still think this is somewhat optimistic, but let's use this figure for now...
I *sincerely doubt* that any active OS4 user haven't downloaded this piece of software by now
Then your sincere doubts have done you a disservice. Not every OS4 user can run Timberwolf, and I've heard accounts of OS4 users saying they're not going to bother with it until it's more mature.
I don't want to belittle AROS in any way, but MorphOS and OS4 plays in a completely different league.
I am under no illusions that AROS has fewer regular users than OS4 and MorphOS, but that doesn't concern me, the momentum for AROS continues to build, it's not a question of 'if' it'll catch up/overtake the other two, but 'when'.
About 700 active MorphOS users would mean 2x the amount of about 300 active OS4 users coupled with some 50 active AROS users.
But again, your guess is as good as mine...
That's your guess. Okay. Let's look at it another way. How active are the following forums:
http://www.amigans.net/
http://www.morphzone.org/modules/news/
http://aros-exec.org/
At the time of writing, 7 topics on amigans.net had posts from 'Today', 2 topics from morphzone.org had posts from '11-03-2012' (today's date), and 9 topics from aros-exec.org had posts from 'Today'. Your definition of active users may be different from mine, but seems unlikely to me that MorphOS users are that much quieter/less opinionated than OS4 and AROS users, seems much more likely to me that there are just fewer users who are actively involved with MorphOS. YMMV.
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That's your guess. Okay. Let's look at it another way. How active are the following forums:
http://www.amigans.net/
http://www.morphzone.org/modules/news/
http://aros-exec.org/
At the time of writing, 7 topics on amigans.net had posts from 'Today', 2 topics from morphzone.org had posts from '11-03-2012' (today's date), and 9 topics from aros-exec.org had posts from 'Today'. Your definition of active users may be different from mine, but seems unlikely to me that MorphOS users are that much quieter/less opinionated than OS4 and AROS users, seems much more likely to me that there are just fewer users who are actively involved with MorphOS. YMMV.
I'm lost here. What are you attempting to illustrate here?
OS4.x, for example has at least 3 major forum sites. Amigans.net surely does not carry the same traffic as AW.
AROS...AW is very lively with AROS postings, as opposed to AROS-Exec.
Morphzone...MorphOS does a lot of it's business in irc as opposed to on their forums. If anything, Amiga.org carries significant MorphOS discussion in general.
I just don't see how what you've said leads to any valid conclusions, sorry.
Oh wait...maybe that was your point.
#6
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you should be careful with making too much of this
I'm not. I don't even know why I threw that stupid sentence in there (the last thing I did before hitting the submit button). Had I known that this would be the only argument of mine you would have noticed, I would have left it out completely...
I've heard accounts of OS4 users saying they're not going to bother with it until it's more mature.
I'm sorry, but that's bollocks. I don't deny that there might exist one or two OS4 users who won't bother (for whatever reason), but not very many on top of that. It's kind of like saying that "No, I won't bother downloading the free OS4.1.1 or OS4.1.2 updates because they doesn't have USB2 yet". The browser situation on OS4 is dire, AFAIK many OS4 users have to use several browsers for different things and purposes, and here comes Timberwolf, what everyone has been waiting for since 1995, a freely downloadable software from the holy Frieden twins, the browser that may solve everyone's problems. "I won't download it for free and try it"?! Not very likely, not among the active users...
the momentum for AROS continues to build
Maybe. The Odyssey 1.16 release was definitely one step in the right direction...
it's not a question of 'if' it'll catch up/overtake the other two, but 'when'.
...but I sincerely doubt that however. There is nothing that speaks in favor of that.
How active are the following forums:
I'm sorry, but that's a terrible instrument of measurement, utterly useless, it's impossible draw one single conclusion from that. Most MorphOS users are posting more on amiga.org and amigaworld.net than they are posting on morphzone.org. It has more to do with site culture, "site momentum" (people go where the discussions take place) etc. Even Fab (a MorphOS core developer) used to post on amigans.net. MorphZone.org has always been a "quiet" place, or rather free from the pointless, shallow noise that other sites suffer from, it has more depth (and there is also an active mailing list where most support issues are handled). 10-20 people using amigaworld.net like it would be an IRC channel may give the impression of activity, but you can't possibly draw any conclusion of how many active MorphOS/OS4/AROS users there are based on these kind of impressions, not when many community members are occasionally posting on *all* the forums you mentioned (regardless of their preferred system of choice), and many are also using more than one system. There are many "silent" MorphOS users, sometimes you gets surprised, not expecting this or that person to ever try MorphOS, and suddenly it shows in a discussion that they are even registered users. And many of the posters aren't even using *either* of the systems anymore, they are just participating in the social club...
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Oh wait...maybe that was your point.
My point was that if takemehomegrandma's assumption about MorphOS having double the number of active users was correct, it would be reasonable to assume that you'd see more discussion surrounding it (not necessarily double, but something close to it). I'm aware there are cross-platform sites, but the vast majority of discussion about usage of MorphOS isn't found here, it's found on morphzone.org.
So the question becomes, if you do have double the users, why are there fewer discussions surrounding it? Seems to me we have a different definition about what 'active' users means.
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My point was that if takemehomegrandma's assumption about MorphOS having double the number of active users was correct, it would be reasonable to assume that you'd see more discussion surrounding it (not necessarily double, but something close to it). I'm aware there are cross-platform sites, but the vast majority of discussion about usage of MorphOS isn't found here, it's found on morphzone.org.
So the question becomes, if you do have double the users, why are there fewer discussions surrounding it? Seems to me we have a different definition about what 'active' users means.
I'm not dismissing what you have to say, but TMHG's last paragraph, imo, is entirely valid.
When you take into account mailing lists, public irc channels (where you -can- sense activity), private irc channels (where you can not unless you are invited), private irc conversations between 2 individuals...it all adds up.
Analyzing the true activity is also subjective as well. If a private channel is discussing sports vs discussing their operating system of choice, then is it "active"?. Heh.
#6
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I'm sorry, but that's bollocks. I don't deny that there might exist one or two OS4 users who won't bother (for whatever reason), but not very many on top of that.
Again, you base this on what? Let's look at the download numbers for mui-owb:
http://os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=network/browser/muiowb.lha
1320 downloads, and this is downloads for a single version, no upgrades. Let's use your 'divide by 2' method to take into account the multi-system users, which gives us 660. Bit different from your 300 users estimate eh.
...but I sincerely doubt that however. There is nothing that speaks in favor of that.
Okay, let's compare the development activity that's happened for MorphOS and AROS over the last 2 years. How has MorphOS developed in this time, what features has it gained or refined?
I'm sorry, but that's a terrible instrument of measurement, utterly useless, it's impossible draw one single conclusion from that.
It's interesting that you dismiss one way to analyse active users, but cling onto others when it fits in with your world view (MorphOS registrations and Timberwolf downloads). Here's a challenge for you, find me all the MorphOS discussions on amiga.org and amigaworld.net for last week, and I'll do the same for OS4, I guarantee you that the MorphOS discussions will be less frequent.
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I'm not dismissing what you have to say, but TMHG's last paragraph, imo, is entirely valid.
When you take into account mailing lists, public irc channels (where you -can- sense activity), private irc channels (where you can not unless you are invited), private irc conversations between 2 individuals...it all adds up.
Analyzing the true activity is also subjective as well. If a private channel is discussing sports vs discussing their operating system of choice, then is it "active"?. Heh.
#6
AROS has mailing lists, IRC channels, etc... as does OS4 (perhaps less so with the mailing lists). Forum activity represent a fraction of the total discussions, I agree with that, but they can still illuminate the general trend for activity. MorphOS has a nice advantage in that the cost to start using it is cheaper than OS4, which of course helps with impulse purchases, but how many of those impulse purchasers then use it regularly. That seems to be a valid question to make if we're talking about 'active' users rather than just 'users' in a looser sense.
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AROS has mailing lists, IRC channels, etc... as does OS4 (perhaps less so with the mailing lists). Forum activity represent a fraction of the total discussions, I agree with that, but they can still illuminate the general trend for activity. MorphOS has a nice advantage in that the cost to start using it is cheaper than OS4, which of course helps with impulse purchases, but how many of those impulse purchasers then use it regularly. That seems to be a valid question to make if we're talking about 'active' users rather than just 'users' in a looser sense.
I don't know why, but I can throw in another variable here. Perhaps we can call it website allegiance or website familiarity and the comfort that offers.
The OS4 team has been trying to move postings (for purposes of support) to the Hyperion specific product forums.
http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/
Why doesn't everyone who is a customer follow the prompts from devs and testers to do so?
Imo, many folks see AW and Amiga.org very much like home, and are hesitant to sever themselves from that pleasant sense they get when they log into "home".
All I'm getting at with this comment is that there are other factors like the above, which I believe lead people to choose where to be active.
#6
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First of all I have biggest respect for the MorphOS-Team and their achievements and good contacts even to "Core-developers" so I do not think that this discussion makes much sense because all camps are too small now and we should think about how to attract new users/developers and not who is the biggest between the three "dwarfes".
I see "activity" in the softwarebase and new entries and 68k is outnumbering all other camps by far (existing base and new entries). So i personal concentrate on attracting 68k developers/users for Aros by creating a new 68k based distribution. You can continue to discuss if you have more users than AOS but what does it help you? The question is is there a concept and ideas that offer a chance to grow or not and I see the momentum in Aros now with many projects now getting ready. I do not see that in MorphOS or AOS right now and I high much doubt your numbers (50 Aros-Users). That is wishful-thinking in my view.
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All I'm getting at with this comment is that there are other factors like the above, which I believe lead people to choose where to be active.
#6
number6, I agree that discussion happens most freely in places that already have an active userbase. However, Amiga users from all camps are registered on the long established Amiga forums, and each have at least some semblance of regular activity.
My gripe was with the assumption that there are 2x the number of MorphOS users compared to OS4 and AROS combined. Should that be true, even if only a half of all MorphOS users used forums to communicate, we'd see equal levels of discussion. Since that's not the case, one of the following statements is true:
1. Less than half of all MorphOS users are regular forum users.
2. MorphOS doesn't have double the number of users after all.
I hope this makes sense.
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I do not think that this discussion makes much sense because all camps are too small now and we should think about how to attract new users/developers and not who is the biggest between the three "dwarfes".
Bingo! I'm glad someone else understands.
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1320 downloads, and this is downloads for a single version, no upgrades. Let's use your 'divide by 2' method to take into account the multi-system users, which gives us 660. Bit different from your 300 users estimate eh.
No, sorry, still doesn't compute the way you wants; you are talking about aggregate statistics from a 6+ months period of time, during which many re-installations took place (OS4.1.3 did cause *major* problems for many users, of which many have more than one system, and many users probably made a clean re-install after the OS4.1.4 release as well, which *also* happened during this time). And then came OS4.1.5 for the X1000. How many X1000's are there? 100? 200? 300? I think it's fair to assume that 99%+ of those were sold to already existing OS4 users (accepting a $3,000 deal like that takes a certain amount of... ehm, "enthusiasm" (read: fanaticism)), and these systems got their share of that statistics as well. And there are definitely some Sam systems sold to existing OS4 users as well during this time (same as for the X1000: Few people outside the dedicated OS4 crowd would accept the Sam deal as well).
You would have to divide that number by a lot more than 2, but it's difficult (impossible!) to say by how much, since it's such a long period of time, in which way too many things happened that affects way too many parameters in way too unpredictable ways...
It's interesting that you dismiss one way to analyse active users
Because it's *not* a way of analyzing active users. You could as well go out counting the blades of grass in your front lawn, and use that as a base for your assumptions.
Look, it's obvious that the possibility of MorphOS having more users than OS4 is very sensitive/emotional for you. But please don't be naive.
The hardware situation for OS4 is hopeless. In comparison to MorphOS, it has *always* been hopeless. One option costs $3,000+ and offers very little (performance wise) over current MorphOS hardware, and has much to wish for when it comes to support in OS4. The other option costs $1,000+ and offers about the same performance as my Efika MX, costing 1/10th as much, and this one too isn't fully supported by the OS (or are the audio drivers ready now?)
This in "competition" (what competition, really...?) to the high quality, powerful and cheap Mac hardware that MorphOS has been running on since summer 2010. Mac Mini's (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=mac+mini+g4&_sacat=See-All-Categories) for $100-$200, PowerMac's (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=powermac+g4&_sacat=0&_odkw=mac+mini+g4&_osacat=0&_from=R40) and eMac's (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=emac+g4&_sacat=0&_odkw=mac+mini+g4&_osacat=0&_from=R40) for $20 and up. Good quality hardware, that runs circles around any Sam system, virtually *for free* (some eMac's and PowerMac's *are* actually for free, if you serch over time)! And downloading and trying out MorphOS costs exactly $0.00.
Is it really that inconceivable for you that this had its impact on amount of users for OS4 and MorphOS respectively since 2010?
And if we look at the previous generations of hardware, OS4 were in a similar underdog position in comparison to MorphOS when it came to hardware; the AmigaOne series of computers were always priced way much higher than the Pegasos2, they had worse CPU options, and they were crippled by the Articia S and bug-ridden by general design flaws. Is it really that inconceivable for you that this had its impact on amount of users for OS4 and MorphOS respectively?
And if we look at how long the two OS's have been "open for business", how long they have been here and able to attract users to their flocks; if I remember correctly, I got my first Pegasos 1 with MorphOS 1.0 in December 2001 (first public beta was released for Amiga computers in 02-Aug-2000). Then came and went 2002. Then came and went 2003. Then came 2004, and in the late spring/early summer, I was able to buy an AmigaOne XE with the first pre-release version of OS4. During all that time, where OS4 *simply didn't exist*, MorphOS was available to everyone wanting to try it out, it was constantly being developed, it evolved, moving its positions forward on every front. Is it really that inconceivable for you that this had its impact on amount of users for OS4 and MorphOS respectively?
And if we look at the qualities of the two OS's, MorphOS is the one with the best features, the most features, best stability, the original Amiga standards (like MUI, Poseidon USB, CGX, etc) in the very latest versions, not bundled in a "contrib" drawer, but *integrated* in the OS, and the one having the best Amiga compatibility (funny to see how even Hyperion's own games won't run on OS4, while working just fine on MorphOS), and for the last couple of years, it has been the only option having a modern and fully working web browser option. Is it really that inconceivable for you that this had its impact on amount of users for OS4 and MorphOS respectively?
MorphOS has always been ahead, it has been here longer, it has always had the better and the cheaper hardware. You are naive if you don't think this have had an impact during the last decade. The only thing OS4 can bring to the table that MorphOS can't, is a boing ball (TM). But maybe people aren't just as prepared to pay $3,000 (THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!) for that boing ball (TM) as you thought, only to be able to run an OS that has always been chasing MorphOS in its footsteps, a few miles back? Maybe money *does* matter to most people, even Amigans, and maybe performance and features *does* matter as well? Maybe (just maybe) all these things combined led to MorphOS having a bigger user base today? Shock! Horror!
I'm *not* claiming with certainty that things are this way, but I have tried putting up "educated guesses", assumptions and arguments, that at least are based on some kind of numbers/statistics. You think this is totally inconceivable, "it simply can't be true", yada yada, but your only argument for things *not* being this way, seems to be how much some people (of which many are MorphOS and AROS users) are chatting about today's weather, CUSA's evilness, DiscreetFX's latest press release, the endless debate on PPC vs. x86 or whatever, over at amigaworld.net... :rolleyes:
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we should think about how to attract new users/developers and not who is the biggest between the three "dwarfes".
/me raises hand eagerly: "I know the answer! I know the answer! Please let *me* answer! Since the X1000 means such a great jump in users for OS4 this must be the way to do it, but let's increase all variables to make it even more of a way forward for the platform, let's make a computer with *eight* cores for our Single CPU Only platform, using some aging CPU from an *even more dead* upstart of a company from the history books, with some bolted on 'Yihad' chip offering a 'Yorro' bus, costing... hmm, FOUR thousand dollars!!1!"
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@TMHG
what on earth is with your obsession with OS4? i honestly think some MOS users talk more about OS4 than they do about their own platform on this site. can't you discuss the numbers in your own community without talking a bunch of smack about everybody else?
you and folks like you are a big reason morphOS turns me off. seriously. listen to amigadave; he knows what's talking about.
-- eliyahu
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No, sorry, still doesn't compute the way you wants; you are talking about aggregate statistics from a 6+ months period of time, during which many re-installations took place (OS4.1.3 did cause *major* problems for many users, of which many have more than one system, and many users probably made a clean re-install after the OS4.1.4 release as well, which *also* happened during this time).
Again, how do you know? You're trying make big assumptions based on very little information.
Because it's *not* a way of analyzing active users. You could as well go out counting the blades of grass in your front lawn, and use that as a base for your assumptions.
So it's not an accurate way to analyse active users, yet the number of MorphOS serial key registrations is? Tell you what, go back to whomever handles the MorphOS registrations and ask them how many serial keys have been sent out through unique email addresses. That would let you improve the accuracy of your information.
Look, it's obvious that the possibility of MorphOS having more users than OS4 is very sensitive/emotional for you. But please don't be naive.
Doesn't bother me bub, I'm an AROS guy. What does bother me is your willingness to make bold claims without solid information to back it up. Hopefully you'll think twice next time.
Now, regardless of the numbers of users each platform has, we'd like to see those numbers increase, yes? So how about we put aside competing over small fry, and work together on going for the big fish. A rising tide lifts all boats, and all that.
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@iggy
Indeed... and there are over 7000 downloads for Basilisk II MorphOS port. It is five times more than there are Amiga users.
Generally when reading download stats it appears that on average OS4 and MorphOS software is getting similar download figures. So I would assume user bases are close to each others. No idea where AROS is going but it seems its user base is similar to MorphOS -- pretty quiet feet on earth people.
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That's your guess. Okay. Let's look at it another way. How active are the following forums:
http://www.amigans.net/
http://www.morphzone.org/modules/news/
http://aros-exec.org/
At the time of writing, 7 topics on amigans.net had posts from 'Today', 2 topics from morphzone.org had posts from '11-03-2012' (today's date), and 9 topics from aros-exec.org had posts from 'Today'. Your definition of active users may be different from mine, but seems unlikely to me that MorphOS users are that much quieter/less opinionated than OS4 and AROS users, seems much more likely to me that there are just fewer users who are actively involved with MorphOS. YMMV.
On the other hand when I was in Amiganoid 2011 event (my first Amiga event in 10 years so I keep repeating it) there were more OS4 machines demoed than AROS+MorphOS machines in total (also OS4 beta testers were exceeding number of AROS/MorphOS users there). So I wouldnt measure user base by its community activity or anything like that.
But I wouldnt claim MorphOS has more users than AROS and SO4 in total. It is completely wrong and also irrelevant when number of users is counted in hundreds.
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But I wouldnt claim MorphOS has more users than AROS and SO4 in total. It is completely wrong and also irrelevant when number of users is counted in hundreds.
Exactly.
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1. Less than half of all MorphOS users are regular forum users.
2. MorphOS doesn't have double the number of users after all.
I hope this makes sense.
Both 1 and 2 are true.
In fact I know certain user on #amigaworld who is using MorphOS only since he sold all his OS4 machines. However he only posts about OS4, posts OS4 videos, promotes OS4 on every chance. He never asks anything about MorphOS nor posts about it.
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@TMHG
what on earth is with your obsession with OS4?
What do you mean?
Someone bumps up a one year old thread, that was about *MorphOS* user numbers (we *are* allowed to discuss MorphOS user numbers, right, or is that "negativity" in some weird OS4-way?), then HenryCase tries to make a case on how it's very unlikely that MorphOS can have more users than OS4 (mostly based on his personal Amigaworld.net/MorphZone.org experience as it turned out), and I pointed out how it very much *can* be so, based on recent statistics, while repeatedly stating that it in no way could be considered as facts.
And here you come, proclaiming me guilty of the crime of... well, I don't know, but you obviously do...
you and folks like you are a big reason morphOS turns me off. seriously.
Well, Sir, I am very sorry I don't please you, I apologize so very much. *A whole bunch* of people among the OS4 crowd (includins ssolie, the friedens, etc, heck, probably a majority of the OS4 people posting at amigans.net) are guilty of pissing off a lot of people as well. The AROS crowd are close to none-existent, but I'm sure more than one has been in disagreement with Dammy over the years. What you think of people is highly subjective. You obviously gets pissed off by whoever claims that MorphOS *could* have more users, but not by anyone claiming *OS4* could have more users. I'm not the one claiming that user numbers matters the slightest anyway, they are much too low all over anyway, and I don't care, I'm not the one with an obsession here. But it's interesting to note that if someone claiming that there could be measurable signs that MorphOS might actually be the more popular of the two, they have "an OS4 obsession", but when someone claims the opposite, it's just fine and dandy. And I'll tell you what, if you base your choice of Amiga OS upon these kind of things instead of their actual technical merits and stuff like that, then it's really *your* problem.
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Both 1 and 2 are true.
What I was really saying before is that at least one of those two statements was true, which doesn't exclude the possibility that they're both true.
In fact I know certain user on #amigaworld who is using MorphOS only since he sold all his OS4 machines. However he only posts about OS4, posts OS4 videos, promotes OS4 on every chance. He never asks anything about MorphOS nor posts about it.
I find that interesting, and wonder why someone would do that, I can only guess such behaviour is rare.
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I pointed out how it very much *can* be so, based on recent statistics, while repeatedly stating that it in no way could be considered as facts.
This is the crux of the problem. Using a phrase Carl Sagan helped popularise; "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". The general opinion regarding numbers of OS4 and MorphOS users is that they are roughly equal. If you make a claim which greatly contradicts the generally held view, there better be some substance behind your claims as you can expect people to question them. Making bold statements, then saying they're not based on facts, does not cut it.
Hope you understand why I got annoyed at you now. Can we please move on and talk about how to grow our platforms? I would like to see MorphOS get more users, there's really no need to have an aggressive stance against each other here. The true answer about how many MorphOS users there are is 'not enough', or at least not enough for long term growth. Let's work on fixing that.
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But I wouldnt claim MorphOS has more users than AROS and SO4 in total. It is completely wrong and also irrelevant when number of users is counted in hundreds.
It's also irrelevant because of the sliding definition of "users". I downloaded AmiKit a few weeks ago. I have booted it up a couple of times, and I even provided some bug reports that led to a new release. I still have it on my computer. Am I a user?
I haven't booted up my Pegasos 2 for three years, but I have it here with MorphOS installed. Am I a Pegasos 2 user? And similar - people having AmigaOne XE's collecting dust besides their PC's, not having used it forever, but actively participating in OS4 discussions on Amigaworld.net using Google Chrome on the Windows 7 box, are they OS4 users?
However, paying €111 in order to obtain a key file, *is* actually a sign of commitment far higher than casually installing AmiKit on a Wintel 7 box, or curiously looking up how far Icaros 1.4 has developed since version 1.3, and there are actual numbers to be read here, the only question is how to interpret them (if you should divide by 2 or something else). And I still actually *do* believe that close to 100% of all active OS4 users have downloaded Timberwolf at least once (probably 2-3 times per average users, due to multiple systems and re-installations).
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What do you mean?
Someone bumps up a one year old thread, that was about *MorphOS* user numbers (we *are* allowed to discuss MorphOS user numbers, right, or is that "negativity" in some weird OS4-way?), then HenryCase tries to make a case on how it's very unlikely that MorphOS can have more users than OS4 (mostly based on his personal Amigaworld.net/MorphZone.org experience as it turned out), and I pointed out how it very much *can* be so, based on recent statistics, while repeatedly stating that it in no way could be considered as facts.
of course you're welcome to discuss the number of people using morphOS, by all means. and if you want to compare against some measure of people using AROS or OS4 or windows or whatever, knock yourself out. i just don't get why you feel it necessary to post insults or snarky comments about OS4 in the process. and you do that constantly. look at morphzone -- you can't help yourself talking about the other camp.
What you think of people is highly subjective.
of course it's subjective. it's my opinion.
You obviously gets pissed off by whoever claims that MorphOS *could* have more users, but not by anyone claiming *OS4* could have more users. I'm not the one claiming that user numbers matters the slightest anyway, they are much too low all over anyway, and I don't care, I'm not the one with an obsession here. But it's interesting to note that if someone claiming that there could be measurable signs that MorphOS might actually be the more popular of the two, they have "an OS4 obsession", but when someone claims the opposite, it's just fine and dandy. And I'll tell you what, if you base your choice of Amiga OS upon these kind of things instead of their actual technical merits and stuff like that, then it's really *your* problem.
dude, i don't care if morphOS users are ten times the number of OS4 users. i couldn't possibly care less. the point of my post was that your arguments about morphOS nearly always involved putting down OS4. you post in OS4 threads that have nothing to do with morphOS just to talk smack. i would wager that you have posted more often in OS4-related threads on this site than morphOS-related threads, at least in the past couple of years.
and i'll tell you what, your behavior is a turn off for people. a big turn off. because this is a hobby, and part of that is being part of a community. and the obsession a few MOS users have with OS4 is something i would never want to be associated with.
-- eliyahu
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In a user base as small and fractured as ours I'd suggest that being able to sell a product at all is quite an achievement.
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How many ACA boards did Jens sell?
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"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".
I have understood that you think it is, but just why would this be such an extraordinary claim?
The general opinion regarding numbers of OS4 and MorphOS users
Who decides what is the "general opinion"? Isn't this kind of subjective?
I believe "the general opinion", is that OS4 is *way* more popular than MorphOS, especially among OS4 users themselves. Why? Because "It's the Amiga" of course! It's "teh reel!!1", it's the true successor, etc. It simply *must* be, otherwise it would be... well, terrible!
I also guess that this is the reason to why the "Those numbers.... (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=35248&forum=2#655277)" thread at AW.net got eight pages of discussion, when someone made the observation that the highly hyped and very much anticipated Firefox/HolyGrail/Timberwolf only got a few hundred downloads in total. It didn't quite match "the general opinion" that OS4 has a few thousand users (yes, I do think that some people actually believes that)...
there better be some substance behind your claims as you can expect people to question them. Making bold statements, then saying they're not based on facts, does not cut it.
...says he who makes bold claims based on little substance beyond how much fun he has chatting with his friends at Amigaworld.net... ;) :p
What *I* did in my recent posts, was highlighting a series of arguments...
1. MorphOS has *sold* almost 1,400 licenses (paying €111-€150 is a commitment)
2. The very much anticipated Firefox beta is only downloaded 770 times after a whole (almost) month
3. Current MorphOS hardware is faster (or about as fast) and cheaper by a magnitude compared to OS4 HW.
4. This was also true for the "previous generation" of HW (The Pegasos/AmigaOne)
5. MorphOS was here several years before OS4, hence it has had a much longer time to "gather a flock"
6. MorphOS qualities/specs/merits etc are higher/better than OS4, and has always been
...that together *could* explain a higher number of MorphOS users, I never claimed it to be a fact, just a counter argument towards your "no it can't be true, there are many more discussions on AW.net than on MorphZone.org".
Sit down, relax, take a deep breath and consider the following: The threshold of getting a MorphOS system is extremely low. Depending on your demands and luck, you could very well be up and running after spending €150-€200, with hardware much faster than the Pegasos 2, *including* a full MorphOS registration. The threshold of getting an OS4 system is on the other hand extremely high, up to 10x as high actually. Anyone believing this won't have a practical effect on user numbers over time, is either extremely naive, or outright dumb. While MorphOS has a constant growth of 20 registrations per month/100 registrations per half year, OS4 probably has a constant *decrease* in numbers due to aging AmigaOne XE's dying off while their owners not having the money (or can't justify the ridiculous cost to themselves) to spend on a Sam/X1000.
@eliyahu: Don't like what I'm saying? Too bad, but sometimes life is a bitch, and please don't shoot the messenger. So put your head in the sand and sing the X1000 song, while we extrapolate the trends (both MorphOS's and OS4's) another 6 months. We don't want to discuss the problems, right? Ouch, that "negativity", no let's stay in the happy land, where OS4 has a great future thanks to the X1000 and Sam routes, PPC all the way...!
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In a user base as small and fractured as ours I'd suggest that being able to sell a product at all is quite an achievement.
Indeed.
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@takemehomegrandma
You believe MorphOS is doing great. Good for you. You totally missed my point, but keep on doing what you do anyway.
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Normally, if a thread pops up discussing MorphOS, I feel obligated to throw in my two cents.
But this hread is relatively pointless. We know how many key files have been purchased since MorphOS went 2.0.
We don't know how many users have multiple keys.
But at a casual glance, I'd saying the number of MorphOS and OS4 users is comparable.
And passionate, fanatics are about as numerous on both sides. Frankly, I use MorphOS because the entry price is good and the hardware it runs on is still reasonably powerful.
That said, I'd love to be able to afford an X1000 and would have no problem adapting to OS4.
Some of us aren't biased at all. I'm using MorphOS and AROS now, and I don't rule out using OS4 at a later date (particularly if MorphOS changes ISAs).
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@takemehomegrandma
You believe MorphOS is doing great.
No, I don't think ~700 users is great in any way, nowhere did I say that.
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No, I don't think ~700 users is great in any way, nowhere did I say that.
This would give around 700 MorphOS users, which is a pretty decent number actually!
Doesn't matter anyway, you're not listening, so let's just save our time and stop talking about this, yeah?
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I can repeat the typical phrases I read on the different sites: "AmigaOS is the only and true Amiga-Successor because it uses 68k code", "MorphOS is the best, why cooperation? The other camps are not interesting", "Aros is years behind", "68k is only for retros and those are not interesting". Have I forgotten one of the phrases? Now I can add: "MorphOS has more users than all other combined" and "Aros is nonexisting". Do you really think that this attracts more users? When you are confronted with download-numbers of Aros (that are in the hundreds) you say those only test it one time (without any proof of you). On aros-exec is a thread you short say how old are you and what are you doing. Already more then 80 users and certainly not everyone active using Aros. But of course no Aros-User. There is a lot of critic regarding Hyperion and parts of the OS4 users regarding behavior that is correct. But some MorphOS Users behave in a way that could seen as arrogance and that is not nice too. So please stop claiming "XYZ is bigger/better/only true" and look what we can do together. I have contact to some MorphOS developer that are kind people and this does not improve relations to the other camps.
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So put your head in the sand and sing the X1000 song, while we extrapolate the trends (both MorphOS's and OS4's) another 6 months. We don't want to discuss the problems, right? Ouch, that "negativity", no let's stay in the happy land, where OS4 has a great future thanks to the X1000 and Sam routes, PPC all the way...!
i rest my case.
-- eliyahu
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1100 Serials Sold. Is that Binary(12) or Decimal? LOL Naughty me.
Quote of the thread: "What you think of people is highly subjective." which wins the "Three Dimensional Array Award" for disapearing up its own bottom.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the number of registered MorphOS users exceeded the amount of Windows users a long time ago. Is this not correct?
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the number of registered MorphOS users exceeded the amount of Windows users a long time ago. Is this not correct?
That still isn't funny the second time around (posted from a MorphOS based system).
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No, I don't think ~700 users is great in any way, nowhere did I say that.
This would give around 700 MorphOS users, which is a pretty decent number actually!
Doesn't matter anyway
Again (pointing at your own quotes) I said that 700 is a pretty *decent* number, and I think it is, given the fact that it descends from a 25 year old platform that people forgot about one and a half decade ago, given that it's tied to PPC in a world where no new viable desktop motherboards has been produced since 2007, and given that it's being developed on a hobby basis, obviously with no commercial ambition (yes, I mean that despite the fact that they are charging money for the licenses, I mean that see no ambition to build a commercial context, a commercial purpose, a product). And it's an OK number for a hobby OS, no-one can expect miracles from these conditions, and it's probably a very good share of the total remaining people in this community who actually *uses* Amiga, and not only spending time in the social clubs *talking* about it.
"Doing Great" would have had a couple of trailing zeros to that 700 figure...
you're not listening
I've been listening to you the whole day. I don't agree however.
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i rest my case.
Look, I understand that some things are taboo, that you "can't" talk about it, at least not without being crucified. Like OS4's obvious quality problems and shortcomings. Like the insanity of the OS4 HW route, and the platform-death it leads to. Like the amount of OS4 users, that probably is a result of the first two. To name a few things, there are more. I understand that.
But you see, talking about it isn't the actual problem. The actual problem is OS4's obvious quality problems and shortcomings, the insanity of the OS4 HW route, and the platform-death it leads to.
So I will continue the talk. Maybe some day, someone will listen, maybe something will change if problems are discussed. Probably not, since a lot of people seems to be of the opinion that the problem is actually highlighting the problems. "Negativity" is baad, mmmkay? Not talking about the problems would be "positivism", and that's goood, mmmkay?
You obviously are one of the people who can't stand this, but I don't really care about what you think of me. I have understood that you don't like me "and people like me" as you put it. You must also understand that a lot of people doesn't like when "ssolie" takes a field-trip to morphzone.org on a crusade against MorphOS charging money for their work (almost trying to bring the impression of some kind of "robbery"/not delivering the promised features, lecturing the MorphOS team on what they should do with the money, etc), a lot of people doesn't like when OS4 users groups MorphOS together with Linux and whatever alien OS's and discards it as being totally irrelevant to the Amiga community (hey, it's not MorphOS that's introducing .so objects and other POSIX crap into the OS, and Hyperion games runs fine on MorphOS), or when the Friedens has their regular primadonna-rage-tantrums as soon as they get a legit question about their views on Open Source.
We don't have to love each other. Do yourself a favor and focus on the problems instead.
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1100 Serials Sold.
That was a year ago, you'd have to add 200 registrations since then...
Quote of the thread: "What you think of people is highly subjective."
My vote goes to: "How active are the following forums:"
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Hi,
Isn't that chart upside down.
smerf
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the number of registered MorphOS users exceeded the amount of Windows users a long time ago. Is this not correct?
Hi,
@Pyromania,
Ha, ha, ha, huh?
You make um big joke, the number of registered MorphOS users, is about half the population of Podunk Idaho. (3)
smerf
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Hi,
@Pyromania,
Ha, ha, ha, huh?
You make um big joke, the number of registered MorphOS users, is about half the population of Podunk Idaho. (3)
smerf
Unless each of those three has over 400 registration keys apiece, that seems unlikely.
Current registration keys? Over 1344. Many paying more then the current price of 111 euros.
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Morphos rules!!!
AOS4.x sucks!!!
;)
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Morphos rules!!!
AOS4.x sucks!!!
;)
That's relative.
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My A1200 rules.
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My A1200 rules.
You've got a better monitor then mine. I guess your 1200 does rule.
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My A1200 rules.
You've got a better monitor then mine. I guess your 1200 does rule.
seen it. It does rule :pint:
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It's also irrelevant because of the sliding definition of "users". I downloaded AmiKit a few weeks ago. I have booted it up a couple of times, and I even provided some bug reports that led to a new release. I still have it on my computer. Am I a user?
I haven't booted up my Pegasos 2 for three years, but I have it here with MorphOS installed. Am I a Pegasos 2 user? And similar - people having AmigaOne XE's collecting dust besides their PC's, not having used it forever, but actively participating in OS4 discussions on Amigaworld.net using Google Chrome on the Windows 7 box, are they OS4 users?
In real world companies dont count how many users there are but how many copies they have sold. So from the MorphOS team POV only interesting graph should be number of MorphOS licenses sold. From Hyperion Entertainment POV only interesting graph should be number of OS4 licenses they have sold.
To AROS developers number of downloads is similarly only interesting figure. It is not comparable to number of licences but should give some idea is interest growing or declining.
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That's your guess. Okay. Let's look at it another way. How active are the following forums:
http://www.amigans.net/
http://www.morphzone.org/modules/news/
http://aros-exec.org/
At the time of writing, 7 topics on amigans.net had posts from 'Today', 2 topics from morphzone.org had posts from '11-03-2012' (today's date), and 9 topics from aros-exec.org had posts from 'Today'. Your definition of active users may be different from mine, but seems unlikely to me that MorphOS users are that much quieter/less opinionated than OS4 and AROS users, seems much more likely to me that there are just fewer users who are actively involved with MorphOS. YMMV.
Morphzone is clearly a technical forum, we don't have silly threads whether to vote for pancakes or not. Certainly not suitable to use as a measurestick for any kind of guess how active MorphOS users are.
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So from the MorphOS team POV only interesting graph should be number of MorphOS licenses sold.
Indeed that's interesting, the MorphOS Team has absolute statistics of this (also connected to individual users e-mail addresses (read: users), so they won't have to "divide by 2" or such either), and that is interesting to outsiders as well, hence the effort of collecting the registration data and making that graph over at morphzone.org, and the original post in this thread a year ago... ;)
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No one cares about numbers of the various camps. It's a niche OS, just like all our Amiga OS's. If you enjoy it, enjoy it - having a dickie measuring contest over pissant numbers is silly. If the Morph devs get a meal out of their hard work even via registrations, kudos to them. Thankless stuff, this hobby OS market when it comes to cash.
In the time it took me to type this, something like 2000 Android activations were done - see how numbers are stupid? :)
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2012/022712-android-850k-256646.html
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I've been listening to you the whole day. I don't agree however.
Okay, if you've been listening, what do you think the main point I'm trying to make is? I'll give you a hint, it's nothing to do with forum visitors.
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@hooligan
Morphzone is clearly a technical forum, we don't have silly threads whether to vote for pancakes or not. Certainly not suitable to use as a measurestick for any kind of guess how active MorphOS users are.
Oh sure, morphzone.org is full of productive threads, like a 28 page thread slagging off the X1000. Yes, you're all so superior...
@Duce
You're right.
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There a simple way to measure activity... the software-base. When you call aminet "recent" page and count new entries. There is 68k alone more than all others combined, second is mostly AmigaOS or MorphOS (when I remember right) no big difference between both (f.e. 6 new entries versus 3 or 4) but a really huge gap to 68k and then Aros (but it is now speeding up and developing faster). So when takemehomegrandma is happy about this second place let him have the joy. I am not and are investing my spare time to merge the 68k and Aros communities (what is the logical next step for me). And i see only stagnation in both AmigaOS and MorphOS.
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So when takemehomegrandma is happy about this second place let him have the joy.
No, this is not the issue. I have no doubt that MorphOS is doing well (at least comparitively well). However, there's a big difference between a moderate amount of success and 'double all OS4 and AROS users combined'. It's the lazy analysis used to jump to such a conclusion that is jarring. Had the thread just been about the growth of MorphOS then there wouldn't have been any issues, the '2nd place' thing is fine.
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@hooligan
Oh sure, morphzone.org is full of productive threads, like a 28 page thread slagging off the X1000. Yes, you're all so superior...
Notice that the thread is at General Discussion which is exactly the correct place for this kind of blahblah-bs.
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There a simple way to measure activity... the software-base. When you call aminet "recent" page and count new entries. There is 68k alone more than all others combined, second is mostly AmigaOS or MorphOS (when I remember right) no big difference between both (f.e. 6 new entries versus 3 or 4) but a really huge gap to 68k and then Aros (but it is now speeding up and developing faster). So when takemehomegrandma is happy about this second place let him have the joy. I am not and are investing my spare time to merge the 68k and Aros communities (what is the logical next step for me). And i see only stagnation in both AmigaOS and MorphOS.
What, are there MorphOS software on Aminet? Did anyone know this?
:p
(Note: I knew there was, but you must understand that most people downloads their MorphOS software from other places. And isn't there something for OS4 as well, "OS4 depot" or something? And whether you download or not at all, what, and how much, depends on your user pattern. For example: If you mostly want to browse the web, Odyssey is already bundled (no need to download, and new versions comes on the developers own space), Yam has its own site, Simple mail has sourceforge AFAIK, AmIRC has its own page. UAE is on Fab's page, so is mplayer, etc, etc. Do you get the point? ;))
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@TMHG
Grunch ftw ;-)
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No I do not. i wrote "new entries" and not download-numbers. Name me software that is not available on aminet. In my view aminet is best source to show the differences in development of new software of all camps. Or do you think different?
Most of the software you mention are available for all platforms so they make no difference. What software is only available for MorphOS and not on Aminet?
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Most of the software you mention are available for all platforms so they make no difference. What software is only available for MorphOS and not on Aminet?
Not a lot but I understand his point, I myself quite rarely download from Aminet, I use Grunch or developers homepage. Aminet is a valuable source for software though and wish it will continue as long as possible.
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@hooligan
Oh sure, morphzone.org is full of productive threads, like a 28 page thread slagging off the X1000. Yes, you're all so superior...
On that thread, someone brought up the idea of porting MorphOS to the X1000, but then it was discussed how this would be pointless, and would never happen anyways given the people involved in the project. It's way too expensive, to uncertain, too small volume, etc. There isn't anything viable about it. This is what was discussed, to sum it up.
What's so wrong about that? Discussing/considering things like this, is what made MorphOS go the current Mac route (bringing 100 new registrations per half year, and probably a visible bump when the PowerBook support is here), it's called realism, not "negativity", and *NOT* discussing/considering these things, is how you end up having your platform tied to a $3,000 anchor on a chain that won't do one single thing to develop the platform, probably the opposite, it may push people away from it, as they see how it prevents the boat from moving.
But by all means, go back to the "Happy La-La Land", where cold-hearted facts are forever being suppressed because of their "negativity", so that lunacy can grow freely and *prosper*. And then you will wake up some day (some two years from now, when the Friedens releases the final version of the Timberwolf) and you'll be shocked and wonder why it was only downloaded by 350 people in total, when the community is so live and active at amigaworld.net, discussing Windows 8, CUSA Amiga's, and x86 vs PPC...
There is *nothing* wrong with the thread over at MorphZone, maybe it's the beholder that is the problem...?
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@TMHG
Grunch ftw ;-)
Yeah! :D
Hope they will integrate the MorphOS itself (with all its components) in Grunch in MorphOS 3.0... :)
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Grunch is a great tool, I use it for my Aros 68k distribution. And I appreciate the efforts the core-developers have done and what great software like Grunch or OWB were created for it. I am not against MorphOS but I think MorphOS is in the same trap as AOS (PPC) so working together with Aros would help both sides, more than always saying "we are the best" even if it is a shrinking (in best case stagnating) community.
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Notice that the thread is at General Discussion which is exactly the correct place for this kind of blahblah-bs.
So what? There are 'General Discussion' type subforums on all popular Amiga forums. The point is, morphzone.org is no better in this regard than another single OS site, like amigans.net for example. So your claim that morphzone.org is somehow full of superior discussions is slightly dubious, it's very comparable to both AROS-Exec.org and Amigans.net.
Not a lot but I understand his point, I myself quite rarely download from Aminet, I use Grunch or developers homepage. Aminet is a valuable source for software though and wish it will continue as long as possible.
You understand TMHG's point, but I hope you also understand that it wasn't relevant. Olaf was using Aminet software uploads as a measure of the amount of new software available, not to measure downloads (which means the fact it's commonly downloaded elsewhere is irrelevant). By your own admission, there isn't much MorphOS software that isn't available from Aminet, so it seems a perfectly reasonable place to measure new software activity.
What's so wrong about that?
There's not much wrong with that thread, my point is that the content found at Morphzone is typical Amiga forum fare. Hooligan wanted to make out that you had a better quality of discussion than found elsewhere, I wished to point out that the same sort of bikeshedding found in other Amiga forums can be found at Morphzone too.
In fact, reading through that thread it's interesting that there is another prime example of your dodgy analytical skills, where you claim Amigakit funded production of the X1000, implying A-EON probably didn't have the finances to bankroll it, only to be corrected by Trevor Dickinson (who did fund the X1000 development) in the next post. Where you got this from, I do not know, but you do seem willing to make stuff without much factual basis.
Noticed you ignored my question before, guess you're still confused about how to answer?
Okay, if you've been listening, what do you think the main point I'm trying to make is? I'll give you a hint, it's nothing to do with forum visitors.
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On that thread, someone brought up the idea of porting MorphOS to the X1000, but then it was discussed how this would be pointless, and would never happen anyways given the people involved in the project. It's way too expensive, to uncertain, too small volume, etc. There isn't anything viable about it. This is what was discussed, to sum it up.
That's funny. When I read it I see a well thought out discussion about future direction and the concerns expressed about that future.
Then again, I mostly focus my attention on what the development team has to say and not so much the extraneous comments.
#6
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That's funny. When I read it I see a well thought out discussion about future direction and the concerns expressed about that future.
Was that supposed to *contradict* in some way what I just wrote above? I just commented on the X1000 part of it. Again: It started with a suggestion to port MorphOS to the X1000, the idea was rejected (hordes of reasons were given, in summary it would be even more of a dead-end than used Mac hardware), what makes most sense at this point is supporting Mac hardware. Then various aspects of various CPU architectures was discussed, pros/cons, etc. In fact, not a great deal of all the posts in that thread was even mentioning the X1000. How this can turn out to be "a 28 page thread slagging off the X1000" in someones head is beyond me. It must be someone having their "actively-searching-for-"Negativity"-to-get-upset-about" glasses on. Maybe your comment was really directed to HenryCase?
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So your claim that morphzone.org is somehow full of superior discussions is slightly dubious, it's very comparable to both AROS-Exec.org and Amigans.net.
Hooligan wanted to make out that you had a better quality of discussion than found elsewhere,
Do not put words into my mouth. I have never ever told the discussions are of better quality than elsewhere.
You understand TMHG's point, but I hope you also understand that it wasn't relevant. Olaf was using Aminet software uploads as a measure of the amount of new software available, not to measure downloads
My mistake then sorry, a languagebarrier or result of poor quick reading.
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Was that supposed to *contradict* in some way what I just wrote above? I just commented on the X1000 part of it. Again: It started with a suggestion to port MorphOS to the X1000, the idea was rejected (hordes of reasons were given, in summary it would be even more of a dead-end than used Mac hardware), what makes most sense at this point is supporting Mac hardware. Then various aspects of various CPU architectures was discussed, pros/cons, etc. In fact, not a great deal of all the posts in that thread was even mentioning the X1000. How this can turn out to be "a 28 page thread slagging off the X1000" in someones head is beyond me. It must be someone having their "actively-searching-for-"Negativity"-to-get-upset-about" glasses on. Maybe your comment was really directed to HenryCase?
All I said was that in -my- reading I focus on the postive aspects of the thread...the discussion about the future.
#6
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Do not put words into my mouth. I have never ever told the discussions are of better quality than elsewhere.
So this wasn't what you intended to imply with this then?
Morphzone is clearly a technical forum, we don't have silly threads whether to vote for pancakes or not.
My mistake then sorry, a languagebarrier or result of poor quick reading.
Fair enough, that's understandable.
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@HenryCase
I meant the threads are usually only MorphOS related, not much about anything else. It was a surprise to find a thread about Sonys new monitor one morning, off topics like that does not occur very often.
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@HenryCase
I meant the threads are usually only MorphOS related, not much about anything else. It was a surprise to find a thread about Sonys new monitor one morning, off topics like that does not occur very often.
I see. My apologies then. However, considering the original context, I understand where my confusion came from. I was comparing Morphzone to Amigans and Aros-Exec, all three of which are very much focused on their platforms of choice. It's only really on cross-platform sites like amiga.org and amigaworld.net that you get a higher percentage of inane topics.
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There is *nothing* wrong with the thread over at MorphZone, maybe it's the beholder that is the problem...?
I think you are onto something here, as I read the thread in question and thought it was pretty good.
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I think you are onto something here, as I read the thread in question and thought it was pretty good.
Fine fine, maybe I was a little overly harsh about the X1000 thread. The main point I was trying to make wasn't about a single thread in particular, but rather that you can enjoy similar levels of debate across all the single Amiga-like OS forums. Is that something you agree with or disagree with?
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@hooligan
Oh sure, morphzone.org is full of productive threads, like a 28 page thread slagging off the X1000. Yes, you're all so superior...
@Duce
You're right.
Slagging off the X1000? You really don't spend much time reading our threads do you?
The majority of people on MorphZone have been very positive about the X1000 (and considering that its an OS4 machine that's surprising).
Hey, Trevor posts there occasionally.
I'm not sure I like being characterized the way you have.
Our discussions tend to be more serious, but wait till April 1st. We can get just as silly as any other site.
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Slagging off the X1000? You really don't spend much time reading our threads do you?
It was an exaggeration. I'd much prefer to stick to clarity, but when a simple message is being overlooked, you start looking at other ways to get your point across. I've already said I was overly harsh about that particular thread.
I'm not sure I like being characterized the way you have.
Do you know why I made that earlier statement? Please feel free to take a guess.
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Do you know why I made that earlier statement? Please feel free to take a guess.
Actually, maybe I need to apologize because I really don't have to guess.
While some of us attempt to be reasonable even handed (AmigaDave comes to mind) there are a few who's immediate knee jerk reaction is to slam anything they don't favor.
But I believe these people are in the minority.
And I'm not sure MorphOS users are any more guilty then any other group.
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Actually, maybe I need to apologize because I really don't have to guess.
While some of us attempt to be reasonable even handed (AmigaDave comes to mind) there are a few who's immediate knee jerk reaction is to slam anything they don't favor.
But I believe these people are in the minority.
And I'm not sure MorphOS users are any more guilty then any other group.
Iggy, there's no need for you to apologise, I understood your reaction, and I understand your explanation. For the most part I enjoy talking with MorphOS fans, and admire what has been done with the OS. However, occasionally I come across attitudes that seem to come from groupthink/drinking too much of the Kool-Aid, and when I do it's hard to break down those walls with logic alone. I apologise if you thought I was bad mouthing MorphOS and MorphOS fans in general, that was certainly not my intention.
What I'd really want is to stop the pettiness, and find ways for each of us to help grow all Amiga and Amiga-like platforms, not waste time on vacuous statements like 'we've got more users' or 'our platform's better than yours'. At the end of the day, such statements don't improve the software, and only serve to antagonise others, so why do we bother?
However, for the pettiness to stop, there has to be mutual respect, which means elitist attitudes have to go. This applies to all camps. Hope you agree.
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Henry,
I couldn't agree with you more.
Everyone in the community has similar interests and all our OS' are built around an OS3.1 API.
So why is there so much conflict?
Frankly, I'm using two NG OS' now and wouldn't mind trying the third.
Its hard to believe that with such a small base of users we have this many choices.
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So why is there so much conflict?
I don't know man, your guess is as good as mine. My guess is that because all NG platforms are fairly similar, people pick up on the differences as a way to distance themselves from the other platforms, in order to justify the decision they've made on the platform they've chosen.
Frankly, I'm using two NG OS' now and wouldn't mind trying the third.
Its hard to believe that with such a small base of users we have this many choices.
I agree, I see it as a great sign of vitality in the Amiga scene, that despite our relatively small numbers we've got a disproportionate amount of choice when it comes to software, including operating systems. The diversity of choice is something to be celebrated.
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Do you know why I made that earlier statement? Please feel free to take a guess.
You have made *quite a number* of strange statements in this thread, like forum activity on amigaworld.net etc sites would have anything to do with the amount *users* of various platforms, like "MUI OWB" download statistics during a 6+ months period of time of turbulence, two OS updates, re-installations and injection of a few hundred extra systems to existing users, would give a good picture of amount of users, like when you claimed I have said "MorphOS is doing great" when I hadn't, like suggesting that MorphZone.org threads would be "low quality" and giving an "example" of "a 28 page thread slagging off the X1000" (a thread that hardly even speaks of the X1000), like trying to draw conclusions about amount of MorphOS users from Aminet *uploads* (heck much MorphOS SW doesn't even reach Aminet, but that's not even the point, the point is that this is equally hilarious as "user statistics" as your "website activity" were), etc.
I find your behavior very strange, almost obsessed (and no, *I'm* not the one pushing some case here, I have merely been replying to a post you did as a reply to a one year old post from me). Maybe MorphOS doesn't have more users than OS4, there is no certain way of knowing. I don't know, and *you* don't know, you have actually no idea, but you are quite desperate to discard it as "wishful thinking" though.
What we *do* have, however, is statistics of MorphOS registrations. And we *do* have DL statistics of *the single most anticipated and hyped piece of OS4 software ever!* (please don't insult everyone's intelligence by suggesting that only a few people would download this, not when the browser situation is so dire on OS4 as it is, not when it's "Firefox" from "the Friedens" we are talking about). I have never claimed that this could be considered absolute facts, I stressed that several times, in several posts. But put together (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=683291&postcount=98), it all surely builds a *plausible* case. *Plausible*, not a fact. But it's funny to see how this obviously is so darn completely inconceivable to you, and in your desperation to prove it to be impossible and "wishful thinking", you come up with one "proof" more hilarious and ridiculous than the other.
Again, MorphOS had a head start of almost half a decade and it actually had employed/contracted developers in the beginning (not hobby based development like today), it has all the best Amiga standards *integrated*, it has the best performance, the best features, the best stability, the best Amiga compatibility, the best Internet SW, etc. And it has always had the much better HW situation, both more powerful and cheaper than OS4, and a much better driver support in the OS to go with that. These are quantifiable, measurable facts, not subjective opinions. But even if you *don't* agree with that (which I just *bet* you don't), you are incredibly naive if you can't conceive that there *will* have been an effect in amount of users (for *both* platforms) during the *many years* of a situation where the threshold of getting a MorphOS system being *extremely low*, while the threshold of getting an OS4 system being *extremely high*. Read my lips: "I-T W-I-L-L H-A-V-E A-N E-F-F-E-C-T", the difference is *way* too huge to be ignored! Being tied to a $3,000 system (that offers very little over a $250 MorphOS system) *won't* result in a platform growth for OS4, it will result in a *platform decrease*, at least over time! And this *will* show in various statistics, like for example how many downloads has taken place for the *holy grail* Firefox/Timberwolf software that you *safely* can assume at least 99% of active users will download (*at least* once)...
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@Iggy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo9AH4vG2wA&t=16s
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@takemehomegrandma
If you find my behaviour strange, then you still haven't grasped why I am doing what I'm doing. Please at least TRY to answer the question below, as putting yourself in someone else's shoes should help you grasp what's going on...
Okay, if you've been listening, what do you think the main point I'm trying to make is? I'll give you a hint, it's nothing to do with forum visitors.
the best Amiga compatibility
I find this interesting that you bring this up as a quantifiable fact. As far as I know, there has been no in-depth study of 68k Amiga software compatibility (correct me if I'm wrong on that). What has been noted is that there are some pieces of 68k Amiga software that run on MorphOS that don't run on OS4. This is fine, but what you overlook is that the opposite is true also, there are some pieces of 68k software that run on OS4 that don't run on MorphOS, such as DPaint III, DPaint IV, PPaint, etc... There's some mentions of DPaint IV compatibility in this thread:
http://pfa.amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=33140&forum=28&start=20&39
So what do you base this 'quantifiable fact' on? Is it just that MorphOS runs some software that OS4 doesn't, or do you have some better evidence than this?
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I remember running Dpaint and PPaint on my old (1.3 or 1.4) MOS. PPaint needed some tinkering in config though.
BTW Once there was a deal between Cloanto and Genesi for new version of PPaint for MorphOS.. of course that never realised like so many other good things.
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So what do you base this 'quantifiable fact' on? Is it just that MorphOS runs some software that OS4 doesn't, or do you have some better evidence than this?
Design decisions prevent running certain software on OS4. SnoopDos, MCP, MCX and any other software patching system vectors are out of question. Most 68k drivers are still compatible with MorphOS (although they are no use in Pegasos or Mac). Even 68k Workbench can be used in MorphOS.
Warp3D compatibility is known to be better in MorphOS. Ixemul compatibility is better in MorphOS (OS4 port lacks features like automatic stack enlargement).
WarpUp and PowerUp compatibility is obviously superior in MorphOS but it is not 68k software although WarpUp is part of AmigaOS 3.5/3.9.
68k MUI classes can be mixed with the system. AFAIK in OS4 it is not working.
Other minor details I remember is that in MorphOS MEMF_CHIP and MEMF_FAST are availab le so old software allocating specific memory type is not failing. Certain 68k->PPC and PPC->68k cross calls are supported better in MorphOS.
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@takemehomegrandma
If you find my behaviour strange, then you still haven't grasped why I am doing what I'm doing. Please at least TRY to answer the question below
By all means. Your view is that *even the thought* of MorphOS could be having a larger user base than OS4 is "more of wishful thinking than anything based in reality", it being "Extraordinary claims", obviously totally inconceivable to you. While not claiming with certainty that *it is* this way, I have during my posts put up at least 6 facts (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=683291&postcount=98) that combined gives a plausible case how it *could be* this way. Since you are so desperate to show how this is nothing but "wishful thinking", you have been using all kinds of strange arguments, really grasping for straws, like pointing at Aminet Upload Statistics(!!) and your perceived activity in selected forums(!!!), I mean come on!
Since I posted the last graph the other day, it has now been updated. Well, well, well, the trend (that *is* based on reality, like it or not) continues!
(http://i44.tinypic.com/s4cq5t.gif)
This definitely covers *some* old "classic" Amigans, curious about the "NG" thing, it covers some still active OS4 users wanting to have and use MorphOS as a complement to OS4, and possibly some *formerly* active OS4 users that simply can't afford/won't think it's worth the money to replace their dead-by-age AmigaOne XE system with what's currently being offered by A-eon and Acube.
What these people (in the blinking part above) did do during the very last month, is they have obtained a MorphOS compatible Mac computer by paying money in the range of $20-$300 (probably a hundred or two), they have downloaded MorphOS for free, they have used it and evaluated it for a couple of days, they have installed SW, they have been configuring it in various ways, they have browsed the web, they have played with it, they have been doing a lot of things trying to answer the question: "is this a good Amiga for my needs? A license will cost some money, will it be worth it?". And then *they have* taken the step and paid the €111 to get a key file, some have reported their serial numbers in that MorphOS Counter thread over at MZ, thus they ended up in this statistic. A similar amount is undergoing the same process as we speak. And yet a new group will show up in the statistics for the month after. And you know what? All these people will probably *continue* their social club activities, they will continue casting their votes in the AW.net pancake polls, start IRC-style chat threads, etc, even together with people not even having come close to anything Amiga in a decade but posting there anyway, thus keeping that site "active"...
Again;
The threshold of going MorphOS is *extremely low*.
The threshold of going OS4 is *extremely high*
This *had*, it *has*, and it *will have*, a direct impact on amount of users, for both platforms, as statistics shows...
I don't know why this would be so darn inconceivable, so much of "extraordinary claims", and so much of "wishful thinking" from "the other side".
I find this interesting that you bring this up as a quantifiable fact. As far as I know, there has been no in-depth study of 68k Amiga software compatibility
Well *I did bet* right on your reaction here, didn't I? ;) No, I don't think anyone have bothered with *a complete* Amiga Compatibility comparison, and there are other areas as well where you could do such a comparison as well, like in features and stability. It's very much possible to put together these kind of comparisons, and MorphOS would win them all. I have been playing with the thought many times of producing these comparisons myself, but have been a bit reluctant to do so, because: 1) It would require a lot of time and effort, and 2) As soon as anyone dares to put up a public comparison of MorphOS and OS4 in any way, it's bound to cause uproar and riots, this is something you simply aren't allowed to do, it's taboo, and it will cause the same type of people come crawling up from under their rocks, spewing out their mantras about "negativity", "trolls", "what's the point in all this", shooting and ridiculing the messenger, trying to belittling the whole subject by making casual jokes about it, etc, we have actually seen some lesser examples of this in this very thread (like eliyahu, gertsy, Pyromania, smerf, etc).
There *are* a couple of factual comparisons in existence though. A very thorough performance comparison was made a few years ago (in that french web mag I currently can't remember the name on). MorphOS won, hands down, and as a result we saw countless of thread and unpleasant posts from people condemning the effort per se. Comparing HW performance, HW availability, HW price and HW bang/buck ratio is also a no brainer, there is no need to put these facts side by side in a table, everyone simply knows these facts anyway. A brief feature list comparison (based on publicly available information) could easily be put together (but is it really needed? Doesn't everyone already knows this?), it would take more time to create a comparison table with more in-depth listings. But as soon as you do, there comes these "why all this negativity" people creeping again...
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There *are* a couple of factual comparisons in existence though. A very thorough performance comparison was made a few years ago (in that french web mag I currently can't remember the name on). MorphOS won, hands down, and as a result we saw countless of thread and unpleasant posts from people condemning the effort per se. Comparing HW performance, HW availability, HW price and HW bang/buck ratio is also a no brainer, there is no need to put these facts side by side in a table, everyone simply knows these facts anyway. A brief feature list comparison (based on publicly available information) could easily be put together (but is it really needed? Doesn't everyone already knows this?), it would take more time to create a comparison table with more in-depth listings. But as soon as you do, there comes these "why all this negativity" people creeping again...
just for reference i think you're referring to the 09/2009 comparison in obligement. the article is here (http://obligement.free.fr/articles/amigaos41_vs_morphos23.php) for those interested. don't know if it is still valid given the progress in both MOS and OS4 (and the software used) over the past 2.5 years, but it certainly backs up TMHG's performance claims -- well, at least in the timeframe when it was done.
-- eliyahu
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@takemehomegrandma
But as soon as you do, there comes these "why all this negativity" people creeping again...
Let me be absolutely crystal clear here, my problem is not with other MorphOS users, my problem is with you. I have no beef with MorphOS, and if you'd been paying attention you would've seen this.
No, I don't think anyone have bothered with *a complete* Amiga Compatibility comparison
...and yet you pass it off as a 'quantifiable fact'. Do you even know what that term means? Let me break it down for you. 'Quantifiable' = expressable as a quantity, demonstratably measurable. 'Fact' = demonstrated to be true. So 'quantifiable fact' = something that has been demonstrated, through measurement, to be true. Do you understand now, or do I need to break this down even more simply?
By all means. Your view is that *even the thought* of MorphOS could be having a larger user base than OS4 is "more of wishful thinking than anything based in reality", it being "Extraordinary claims", obviously totally inconceivable to you.
Nice try, but no. My issue is not with the possibility that MorphOS may have a larger userbase, but rather with the quality of your analysis. You cherry pick the metrics you wish to look at, find ways to strengthen the figures for MorphOS and weaken the figures for OS4, and even with the weak quality of these derived stats then use them to make bold statements you can't truthfully back up.
So again, to be clear, I have no problem with the stats, but do I have a problem with how you're using them.
Let me explain another way. Let's look at this using an equation. Here's what you stated before that started our whole debate:
MorphOSusers = 2 x OS4users x AROSusers
Okay, so that's what you wish to prove is true. Let's start with what we've got. As we don't know the value of any of the variables, they have to be derived. Here's the derivation used for MorphOSusers:
MorphOSusers = MorphOSregistrations / 2
Next, for OS4 users, you chose to use Timberwolf downloads (ignoring the larger MOS-OWB downloads, but I digress):
OS4users = Timberwolfdloads / 2
Next, for AROS users, you didn't base this on anything, but for no good reason guessed '50', so:
AROSusers = 50
Now, for each of those derivations, how do you know how accurate they all are? You don't. There is no way to determine a measure of tolerance for the result accuracy, so they're all a guess. So what you really have is:
guess = 2 * guess * guess
Yet, with that guess, you've decided to make it a statement to compare the user bases. I don't know how clear I can make this, but THE REASON I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH YOU IS BECAUSE YOU'RE WILLING TO ARGUE THE BENEFITS ABOUT S**T YOU MADE UP!!
As for your other comments, I'm starting to get a feel how your mind is working. From my perspective, you don't think you're being antagonistic, you think you're doing your bit for platform advocacy, right? Platform advocacy in the sense of 'these are the facts, people deserve to be informed, once they are the facts will speak for themselves'. Am I right, is that what you think you're doing here?
If you are, then let me help you out. If you had kept these MorphOS registration stats purely about MorphOS growth, they would have been cause for celebration. In fact, they still are, despite your best efforts. Honesty is always going to be a more effective strategy than making things up to score extra points, so when you're doing your 'platform advocacy' bit again, stick the facts you can verify. Clear?
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@HenryCase
We have a fixed number of MorphOS registrations. This is number is not a guess at all.
We also have a fixed number of Timberwolf downloads, no guess at all there either.
There have been discussions on MorphZone.org about what would be a reasonable assumption about number of users (since some (but far from all) may have more than one computer registered). A consensus about a plausible number, is the amount of registrations divided by two. It's a very fair assumption, not a fact, but also not something taken completely out of the blue.
There have been a very extensive discussion on Amigaworld.net about the Timberwolf DL numbers (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=35248&forum=2#655277) as well (eight pages!). Many were shocked that the numbers were so low, and obviously having difficulties conceiving that. It is, after all, the single most awaited, hyped, anticipated etc piece of software *ever* on OS4, Firefox, coming with a possible result of solve the terrible browser situation on the OS4 platform, and completely free of charge to download. It's a safe assumption that close to 100% of all active users downloaded this piece of SW at least once, but these turned out to be only a few hundreds in total (it's only fair to divide the number by *at least* two, due to multiple machines in the OS4 world as well (not unique to MorphOS), notorious DL problems/errors with some OS4 browsers, etc). So this is also a fair assumption, not something taken completely out of the blue.
Putting these two variables together, it gives a picture (*with* big margin for errors) of a MorphOS user base far bigger than the OS4 one. And unlike what you are saying, this is *not* "guesses" (as you want to picture it), but *educated guesses* based on reasonable assumptions and estimations. Nothing taken out of the blue, nothing made up, nothing imaginary; just a reasonable, discussed, motivated extrapolation from the data we actually *do* have.
I have tried to put up a possible explanation to how it *could* be this way (MorphOS being bigger than OS4), where the common thread/key words in the context are: probably (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=624609&postcount=13), I'm not claiming to be sitting on a complete set of statistics (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=683228&postcount=68), I'm *not* claiming with certainty that things are this way (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=683255&postcount=83), in no way could be considered as facts (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=683274&postcount=91), *could* (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=683291&postcount=98), *Plausible*, not a fact (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=683502&postcount=152), While not claiming with certainty that *it is* this way, I have during my posts put up at least 6 facts that combined gives a plausible case how it *could be* this way (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=683541&postcount=157). MorphOS was here almost half a decade before OS4, it has always had the better qualities, features, performance, amiga compatibility, etc, it has always had better, cheaper and more powerful hardware since the beginning, and for the last couple of years it has been cheaper than ever to run MorphOS on HW more competent than ever. The threshold of going MorphOS is *extremely low*, while the threshold of going OS4 is *extremely high*. All this *will* have an effect on amount of users for both platforms, you must understand that. And you must understand that not all people sitting all day *chatting* away their life on Amigaworld.net *about* OS4, are actual OS4 *users*, and only the OS4 *users* (not "forum activity") will download Timberwolf, the single most anticipated piece of software since Commodore went bankrupt...
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I don't want to get involved in this argument as obviously nobody's going to win it (unless someone compares the other to Hitler, of course, which automatically make him lose).
But I would say that Timberwolf downloads isn't representative at all.
For starters, anyone running OS 4.0 can't run it. Yet they're still OS 4.x users.
Secondly, anyone running a Classic is much less likely to try it, as they just don't have the horsepower or memory needed.
Thirdly, most of us are quite happy using OWB. I'd say some people may be saying "I'll download it when it's out of beta".
It's not fair to base number of owners on downloads of one program, no matter what that program is.
Back to lurking for me. :)
Edit: Personally, I use OS 4 mostly, but I'm pleased for MOS in the same way as I'm pleased for AOS and AROS, as succeeding at all with such a small market is something we should all be proud of, whether it be the OS we use or a different one. We're all in the same boat, here.
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of course there is a lot of morphos users. when you have to get a new registration for each new mac you have if you want to use morphos. so these morphos users have a lot of old macs laying around the house for each morphos upgrade(maybe also include the pegasus1&2 from way back). the true numbers of active users (not people that just want to test and then forget about morphos) is more likely around 100 or less totally.
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@takemehomegrandma
Next, for AROS users, you didn't base this on anything, but for no good reason guessed '50', so:
AROSusers = 50
Niko's AspireOS had 181 downloads since friday. If we discount 75% of those as people who just downloaded to see what it was. That leaves us with 45. So this must mean Icaros has 5 users. :)
Man you people take yourselves to seriously.
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For starters, anyone running OS 4.0 can't run it.
By all means, let's add MorphOS 1.4 users to the picture as well then...? :rolleyes: Honesty, why start counting nickles and dimes in a discussion based on approximations in the hundreds, keep it in three digit figures, or at least two digit, no need to pay attention to the one digit figures... ;)
you have to get a new registration for each new mac you have if you want to use morphos. so these morphos users have a lot of old macs laying around the house
Uhm yeah, "morphos users have a lot of old macs laying around the hose", you know, that post was so retarded that I will let it speak for itself without furhter comments...
Niko's AspireOS had 181 downloads since friday.
That's great, all the power to AspireOS! :) While not really comparable to neither MorphOS nor OS4, I downloaded it myself, I take a look on those distros from time to time to see who things are going, but that doesn't make me no more "AROS" user than HenryCase's AW.net buddies *talking about* OS4 could be called "OS4 users"...
@thread
I fully understands how talking about user numbers in the hundreds (or below) is provoking to some, but the key term is *user* (not participator in the AW.net social club), and to quote myself from *a year ago* in this thread: "If the numbers seems disappointing to some people, I think they may have had an unrealistic view of the overall 'state of the nation'."
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@thread
I fully understands how talking about user numbers in the hundreds (or below) is provoking to some, but the key term is *user* (not participator in the AW.net social club), and to quote myself from *a year ago* in this thread: "If the numbers seems disappointing to some people, I think they may have had an unrealistic view of the overall 'state of the nation'."
Fine. No how about you present a plan to correct that situation, now that we've completed the 11 page adventure to reach that obvious conclusion.
#6
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of course there is a lot of morphos users. when you have to get a new registration for each new mac you have if you want to use morphos. so these morphos users have a lot of old macs laying around the house for each morphos upgrade(maybe also include the pegasus1&2 from way back). the true numbers of active users (not people that just want to test and then forget about morphos) is more likely around 100 or less totally.
That is your offer to this discussion, really? :insane:
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Fine. No how about you present a plan to correct that situation, now that we've completed the 11 page adventure to reach that obvious conclusion.
#6
1. Write a replacement for ExecSG. This allows for step #2.
2. Get rid of the Friedens. They don't like the community that they themselves formed, and so are a liability at this point. Plenty of recent examples here (and more where this came from):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=35175&forum=32&start=220&viewmode=flat&order=0
3. Stop pretending that OS4 is somehow a continuation of AmigaOS, and name it something inoffensive like "HyperionOS".
4. Hyperion, come up with actual attainable features that make sense and are wanted, come up with a real plan to implement those features, make a commitment to follow that plan, and produce actual results. No more "whatever Rogue felt like working on this month".
5. Stop pretending that OS4 needs to remain on PPC for "backwards compatibility". It's already not compatible with AmigaOS programs, those applications run in a JIT or under emulation. Create a REAL HAL so it can be truly portable, and stop tying to boat anchor hardware.
Hmm, actually looking at this list it seems to be what MorphOS has been doing all along.
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We have a fixed number of MorphOS registrations. This is number is not a guess at all.
The fixed number of registrations is not a guess, but the interpretation of how many users there are based on these registration numbers is. If you want to improve the accuracy of your information, follow my previous advice:
"go back to whomever handles the MorphOS registrations and ask them how many serial keys have been sent out through unique email addresses."
We also have a fixed number of Timberwolf downloads, no guess at all there either.
Yes, again we do have numbers of Timberwolf downloads. Again, the guess is in how these numbers are interpreted to find out something else.
coming with a possible result of solve the terrible browser situation on the OS4 platform
Terrible browser situation? What are you talking about! Do you even know what MUI-OWB is? I'll give you a clue, it's very similar to a browser you know on MorphOS. Are you now saying OWB is a bad browser?
And unlike what you are saying, this is *not* "guesses"
To use mathematical terms, what you can say is that MorphOS registrations are directly proportional to the number of MorphOS users. You can also say Timberwolf downloads are directly proportional to the number of OS4 users. However, to quantify the number of users, which you would need to do to make a direct comparison between OS4 users and MorphOS users (I'll leave AROS users out of this, as even you would probably admit 50 users was pure guesswork), you need to know the constant value that you multiply by to get the final value for users.
You've guessed 'divide by 2', that is the guess. You have no basis for choosing this number, it just 'feels' right to you. To get this number, you've used the assumptions that on average every MorphOS user has two MorphOS licenses, and you've also assumed that nearly every OS4 user has downloaded Timberwolf (twice).
I've already told you how you can improve the accuracy of the MorphOS user figures, so let's look at your OS4 assumptions. First of all, Timberwolf is still in beta and not all users want to mess with beta software, secondly not all OS4 users can run it, thirdly there is already a decent browser on OS4 that users have grown to like (MOS-OWB).
To give you another perspective, what are downloads for MPlayer on OS4 like? I'd say that's as good a gauge as Timberwolf downloads. According to OS4 Depot, the current version has been downloaded 1103 times:
http://os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=video/play/mplayer.lha
So why are there fewer downloads for the supposed 'holy grail' than for a media player? Perhaps Timberwolf downloads aren't as accurate a metric for total OS4 users as you'd like to make out, eh? Perhaps downloads aren't so useful a metric after all? Oh wait, I guess you'll blame this on reformatting, right, because that's such a common issue on the poorly coded OS4. :rolleyes:
As for your AROS user guess, let's not even go there, as you blatantly haven't got any chance of defending your analysis there.
With all that said, I hope you find time to understand this: I want MorphOS to do well. I benefit if MorphOS does well. If MorphOS does have double the number of users of OS4 and AROS combined, then find a way to prove it. If you can come up with better evidence, then I'll have to keep my mouth shut won't I? I never said it can't be true, all I'm getting you to do is hold yourself accountable to the stuff you say.
@jorkany
Obvious troll is obvious.
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I find it hilarious that anybody would seriously wonder which OS had more users. Of course MorphOS has more users. It doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.
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Of course MorphOS has more users.
But does it have 'double the users of OS4 and AROS combined'? That is what is being debated.
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But does it have 'double the users of OS4 and AROS combined'? That is what is being debated.
After long time analyzing this, thinking it through.. I have found the answer. The answer is.. "no-one knows". Hallelujah!
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After long time analyzing this, thinking it through.. I have found the answer. The answer is.. "no-one knows". Hallelujah!
Exactly!!! That's the point I have been trying to make the whole time!!!
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Exactly!!! That's the point I have been trying to make the whole time!!!
I know. Just wanted to shorten hundreds of posts into one line.
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I know. Just wanted to shorten hundreds of posts into one line.
Thank you for doing so.
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After long time analyzing this, thinking it through.. I have found the answer. The answer is.. "no-one knows". Hallelujah!
actually, someone knows. for os4 it will be steven solie who admitted himself to know since he handles os4 registration/serial numbers. on mos someone will be handling serial numbers and licences as well, im certain. it leaves aros alone in the open as there is no centralized official distribution, and of course the classic users will forever reamain this dangerous shapeless anarchistic mass never to be brought under control, as it is their tradition..
so as conclusion: someone knows but for some reason they dont want to tell.
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@Wawrzon
Yes yes I know, tongue in cheek
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By all means, let's add MorphOS 1.4 users to the picture as well then...? :rolleyes: Honesty, why start counting nickles and dimes in a discussion based on approximations in the hundreds, keep it in three digit figures, or at least two digit, no need to pay attention to the one digit figures... ;)
Uhm yeah, "morphos users have a lot of old macs laying around the hose", you know, that post was so retarded that I will let it speak for itself without furhter comments...
That's great, all the power to AspireOS! :) While not really comparable to neither MorphOS nor OS4, I downloaded it myself, I take a look on those distros from time to time to see who things are going, but that doesn't make me no more "AROS" user than HenryCase's AW.net buddies *talking about* OS4 could be called "OS4 users"...
@thread
I fully understands how talking about user numbers in the hundreds (or below) is provoking to some, but the key term is *user* (not participator in the AW.net social club), and to quote myself from *a year ago* in this thread: "If the numbers seems disappointing to some people, I think they may have had an unrealistic view of the overall 'state of the nation'."
And I own two copies of MorphOS but that doesn't make me a MorphOS user either.
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What crackpipe have you been smoking lately?
3. Stop pretending that OS4 is somehow a continuation of AmigaOS, and name it something inoffensive like "HyperionOS".
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What crackpipe have you been smoking lately?
I'd actually say that was a fair comment. I'm a MorphOS user, but I'd never insinuate that OS4 wasn't a legitimate offshoot of AmigaOS. And its the only OS that legally can be derived from OS3.1 source code.
...the true numbers of active users (not people that just want to test and then forget about morphos) is more likely around 100 or less totally.
That is a REALLY stupid comment. Sure some people have multiple licenses, but I doubt they have 14 of them. And since you can try the OS for free, I'd assume that anyone ponying up 111 euros is serious about using the OS.
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Os4 is not an offshoot of os3. It's a continued work from os3.
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Os4 is not an offshoot of os3. It's a continued work from os3.
Well, since they've already used v3.9, I guess they had to move to 4.0 (then 4.1).
And it does force the ISA change (which actually makes sense to me).
MorphOS is moving from 2.7 to 3.0 with far less drastic change.
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Version numbering is just numbers, but AmigaOS4 is still AmigaOS. :)
Oh, and they could have used v3.10->99 aswell. But i guess going from 68k to ppc they felt like that was agood reason to bump to v4.
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Os4 is not an offshoot of os3. It's a continued work from os3.
It's neither an offshoot nor a continued work.
"Exec SG was completely rewritten from scratch and from the ground up" (Ben Hermans, Hyperion, September 2002)
Now, "completely rewritten from scratch" can only be interpreted one way - that nothing, not a single line of code, remains from OS3.x (as if 68k assembly and BCPL would have been of any use anyway). There is nothing that makes OS4 any more of a continuation of OS3 than MorphOS or Aros other than the name.
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Near-total code rewrites between major releases are not uncommon in the software world. Commodore themselves eliminated huge amounts of BCPL between 1.x and 3.x and the "authenticity" of those versions certainly isn't in question.
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Instead of playing a school playground game of who's penis is bigger why not do something positive?
Who cares about classic vs morph os/amiga os etc....
Nostalgia is the biggest thing that brings most people back to the Amiga. My Amiga 500 plus sits nearby.
I have decided to try Morphos to see what amiga ng (as people call it) is all about. Why morphos, I can afford to. Although the $170+ NZD for a license is something I'll really need to think about.
But $50 for an old Power Mac G4 I can afford, and recently I purchased one. If I was to win lotto (lottery) and have millions I'd be looking at an Amiga OS 4 system. Why, because I'd rather have an actual Amiga badged machine than a Mac (hate macs).
Will be modding the G4 case, removing apples is my goal. Missed out on some commodore atx pc cases recently, still kicking myself over that :(
Amiga should be, affordable, ground breaking and a joy to use. If I can find something like that and be able to play my old Amiga games seamlessly then I'm sold.
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This is TakeMeHomeGrandma's way of promoting MorphOS to gain more users and make friends.
Is it any wonder why there aren't more MorphOS users after 10+ years of developing it, even when it was free for the first several years?
Of course it is not just the MorphOS users who are responsible for all the fighting, as it has been going on for many years and has roots at every level, from the very top people at Hyperion against the top people on the MorphOS side, all the way down to users who maybe haven't even been using either one for very long.
The fighting has been going on for so long, it is habit or tradition by now. I am not even sure it can be stopped, though some have tried.
I am too tired of it all to even try to stop it any more, so have at it and enjoy yourselves.
It is a shame though, as it only hurts both sides (OS4.x & MorphOS) from gaining more users, as many original Amiga users, either current or former users, get so turned off by all this nonsense that they avoid even looking at either choice.
That is what disappoints me, is the loss of potential users and developers that could join one or both of the PPC Next Generation systems.
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@AmigaDave
I don't remember if I told this here or at mz.org before but I repeat myself: why would any sane person give a flying f about some individuals loud opinions? I would sort of understand if some people avoid certain operating system due to incidences like for example the Bill Buck-show many years back, but not when it's just a normal user shouting out loud.
This ain't North Korea, one can actually utilise their brain.
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yessss... and MorphOS is the best anyway and all 68k users are retro and Aros is years behind... then we have the typical "fight" phrases again. I would say to this... noone cares if AmigaOS uses 68k code or somehow descents from AOS3. All OSs descent from OS3 (API-Level) so what do you want to proof with it? In the next moment some of the MorphOS fans hit back that MorphOS is the best in all areas and we are in fighting again. It would be better to accept that all choices are equal and we discuss how we can improve the situation. Or both AOS4 users and MorphOS users are happy to fight till both platforms are finally dead (and that is only a question of time). I am not and I am not interested in this silly arguments!
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You underestimate how even individuals influence atmosphere (expecially if there is already heated atmosphere between the camps). And to my biggest regret even some of the core developers are participating there.
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@hooligan
It's not a single individual!
When an AmigaOS 4 news appears especially on this very site, usually the first few replies are by MorphOS people, who post crap on the news way before the AmigaOS 4 users have the time to acknowledge, release and express their opinions.
It's not a single individual, it's a bunch (or shall I call them a crew) of people who will talk crap on any project whatever it is. It's that kind of attitude that turns people down.
It turned me down posting on AmigaOS 4 threads here, because the conversation most usually gets polluted by the same people again and again, involving other OSes even if they were never mentioned before, or being welcome to post at all.
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@ Hooligan
I quit counting at 7 people that I spoke to that said they were so put off from TMHG's MOS propaganda (on A.org specifically) they won't register MOS. I imagine most are running Linux on their PPC mac's now, or stuck with OSX.
I'm one of them, x2 - 2 Mac Mini's. In a small community, one loudmouthed guy that creates statistics and "facts" is just another moron in the scene I won't pay to be a part of a gong show. We heard it all... Hyperion was charging for all 4.1 cycle updates - false. u2 didn't work for anyone at all - false. Microsoft charged for all in cycle service packs, ALWAYS! And that makes the 2.7 to 3.0 free jump for MOS the bees knees! More bull****. Fabrications and lies. The only claims not made was AROS causes abortions and the X1000 caused the holocaust from this guy. BUT MAN, THERE WAS A BAR GRAPH!!!111!!11!! TMHG is your "Dammy". Enjoy. LOL.
Think of it this way, like I do. I'm an open minded guy, willing to listen to anyones opinions. After 6 weeks of the Jehovah's Witnesses showing up every 4 days trying to convert me by hammering on the door at 8 AM on my day off, even if I was even interested in what they had to say - no. Just no, lol - get the eff off my lawn, I ain't buying what you are selling.
The dude seems to be your product evangelist, and I'm all for people being 110% enthusiastic about the products they use. However, you ask why people would avoid a product that has people passing off bull**** as fact?
It's a small community, whether it be MOS, AROS, or AOS. I ain't paying 100 euros to register MorphOS to listen to horseplop from fanboys like some of these guys if I need support from "official" forums. Bad enough having the Gospel crammed in your craw here.
Note: I am not singling out MOS - I'm well aware all camps have their people like this, even back in the days of BBS'ing there was heated debate like this about "factions". However, back then it was a bit different - to use a computer, you had to know your ****. Picking a platform said a lot about who you were and how you conducted yourself, but in this day and age in such a minuscule community as the Amiga community - the divisional clownshow gets real old.
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I do not want to defend MorphOS users (I use Aros and 68k) but it is not only the MorphOS camp. I can post a link to a thread on amigaworld with a discussion regarding Timberwolf. Some asked how it can be that a Firefox port is closed source and some of the core developers saw a attack in that, popped and hit back using words that should not be used by representatives of a company. I was shocked reading that (the discussion before was not insulting before). So both sides are wrong.
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@hooligan
It's not a single individual!
Individual, individuals. Doesn't matter.
If 10 Audi fans tell you Mercedes Benz is crap will you base your carpurchase upon their opinion or your own?
If 10 Mac fans tell you Mac laptop is the best thing since sliced bread will you base your laptop purchase upon their opinion or your own?
if 10 vegetarians tell you meat is bad and you should drop it will you base your future eatinghabit based on their or your own opinion?
In all examples above any sane person would ignore the ten people and make up their own minds.
I don't know if I look at this from a bit different point of view than some others.... I have gone through it all.. Spectrum vs C64 (those dozens of c64 trolls never made me switch from Speccy btw! :-) , Amiga vs Atari.. Amiga vs Pc.. AmigaOS vs MorphOS... and so on.
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@Duce
I agree with you, but we are talking about your hobby. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not the most important thing in your life, it doesn't have to be taken seriously.. it shouldn't be taken seriously. Let the dogs bark and enjoy your own ride, which ever road you chose.
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If 10 "Brand X" fanatics in a general, non Brand X community spam and tell tall tales at every general purpose community site with personal agenda backing it, to the point it is a pain in the ass - do you not see why it would turn some people off "Brand X" product?
I have choices - I didn't (and won't) buy Brand X's product, and I quit following any of their forums despite the fact they have a super product. I won't pay reg fees for the pleasure of that type of community. I'll never get another PM or email haranguing me about my choices in OS for a platform that the world forgot about 20 years ago. Too much BS for a hobby.
The Amiga isn't Audi, lol. You are missing the point. My Audi effs up, my Macbook effs up - I phone Audi/Apple, take them into a service dep't. A completely silly comparison in scope. If I buy an OS4 rig, at some point I will need to get involved with the community. Same for AROS. Same for MOS. Niche market, no support to speak of other than community. It's not a matter of listening to loudmouths, it's a matter of being forced to be in the same pen with said loudmouths once you pick your team. I won't pay for that pleasure, red, blue, green or whatever color.
If I buy into "Brand X OS", Brand X OS being a niche OS, I *WILL* at some time need to get involved with community forums. I will. Period - there's no 1-800 number to call for Tech Support.
EDIT: When the dogs are barking so loudly they send PM's, emails, or insults for your personal choices or comments in a hobby community - it's hard not to listen to those barking dogs.
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Individual, individuals. Doesn't matter.
It matters. I can easily slam down Piru's or TMHG "facts", but when bunch of erudite MOS fans start talking that I don't need XYZ in AmigaOS 4 and it wasn't good feature to have it at first place, I lose interest pretty fast and move on.
The same with the registrations and downloads comparisons of them.
They call me AmigaOS 4 fan, and they would believe that I was one of the first that downloaded Timberwolf, so I am counted in their "statistics". WRONG. I downloaded the browser the second week after it's release, simply because OWB and IBrowse are working good enough for me and I didn't had the time to test yet another browser that is pretty much still in beta version.
Do you believe that every AmigaOS 4 user on earth (including those who don't use their Amigas for browsing) downloaded it?
The serial number of registrations is also a pure fallacy to count on it for statistics. What happens to the serial when a person transfers his license to new machine (after proving the old broke)?
What about the people with three-four-five licenses? The ones who were unable to transfer their licenses? Are they counted 1-2-3-4 times?
I have originals (disks and CDs) of the following AmigaOS versions:
1.2, 1.3, 2.04, 3.0, 3.1, 3.5, 3.9, 4.0, 4.1
How do you count me in the statistics?
As classic, NG or whatever user?
I use classic Amiga software every day on my AmigaOS 4.
There are too many variables in the amount of active users calculation that would make the "statistics" not statistics at all, but pure speculation and fabrication.
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The "proofs" were silly and this kind of behavior noone persuades to buy MorphOS. And besides both camps (MorphOS and AmigaOS are in the "no modern hardware" trap). And both sides keep the battle going on.
For me there is only the choice for working together or disappear on the midrun...
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@Dr.Hirudo
Do you believe that every AmigaOS 4 user on earth (including those who don't use their Amigas for browsing) downloaded it?
(if the above question was targeted at me)
No. The whole discussion about amount of active users is absurd.
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@Duce
You call this fanatic? Too shame you obviously missed out the c64 vs spectrum era ...5hit was a bit more personal back then, no hiding in the forums :lol:
If 10 "Brand X" fanatics in a general, non Brand X community spam and tell tall tales at every general purpose community site with personal agenda backing it, to the point it is a pain in the ass - do you not see why it would turn some people off "Brand X" product?
Nope. If possible I'd give their preference a go aswell. Who knows, maybe they are right ;-)
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I think the competition is good in some respects. Imagine if there was only one option... I think that option would be much worse than the 3 available now.
The downside is when I imagine what if all 3 camps efforts all went into one single ng os. So many things have been done 3 times. Thats sad.
There is too much bs between morph and aos people. Being an aros user, I've noticed that camp has tended to be alot more positive about the other two.
I've also seen that if you have a valid criticism about morphos it is usually answered civilly. To me, the AOS 4 community just attacks anyone with valid questions, or especially criticisms.
I think asking how someone can close source a firefox port and then plan to charge people money for it is a valid question.
I also think the criticism about charging so much for ancient spec aos hardware, or x1000 not even having drivers is worthy of discussion and not attacks.
Sometimes, the morphos users and developers simply point out the bull**** in the other camp. I can't blame them for that. When benchmarks reveal that a 50$ used mac has very similar speed/benchmarks to a 3000$ x1000 people attack them for pointing that out. Personally, I think people deserve to know the truth of what they are really buying, and I'm glad someone revealed that.
I don't know how many morphos users there are. I don't care. I use AROS.
Though, if Morph finally goes to g5, I will buy a mac, customize the case to replace apple logos with butterflys or boingballs, and register that day.
I think the mac thing is great. I've always LOVED mac hardware but being a long time linux guy I find osx to be a total joke.
Steven
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This is TakeMeHomeGrandma's way of promoting MorphOS to gain more users and make friends.
It is a shame though, as it only hurts both sides (OS4.x & MorphOS) from gaining more users, as many original Amiga users, either current or former users, get so turned off by all this nonsense that they avoid even looking at either choice.
That is what disappoints me, is the loss of potential users and developers that could join one or both of the PPC Next Generation systems.
@AmigaDave
I don't remember if I told this here or at mz.org before but I repeat myself: why would any sane person give a flying f about some individuals loud opinions?
I agree. Hooligan, logically it makes no difference you're absolutely right. However when someone obsessively cherry picks stuff to try and win their argument and seems to have glee in slamming someone's choices, it does become off-putting and self-defeating. I'm currently still on 68k/WinUAE and ideally would like to try all of the oses. My plan is that the two major bits of, admittedly very niche, software I'm writing will be available for as many platforms as possible.
I prefer a collaborative, constructive approach, for example MUI-OWB getting ported by Fab, Kasle, et al., Desler's aim to port Cinammon writer to all 3 ng systems, rather than the destructive "my way or the highway" approach.
It does seem crazy considering everyone involved was most likely an Amiga fan in the 69k days, that it seems to have evolved into
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE
billy
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Haha Hooligan, we had our fair share of fanaticism over here too, we didn't see many Spectrum's over here though. Brings back a fun memory.
I remember we used to have BBS meetups - essentially just a bunch of socially retarded, pimply BBS geeks, we'd find someone old enough to buy us beer and meet at someones house.
The one time, it was a community BBS meet - not just our little circle of Amiga guys and the few PC sysop guys we kept around for comedic and/or charity value. Everyone showed, standing room only - Commodore guys, Apple guys, PC guys, hell - even the one Unix sysop in town was there. 14 year olds, 60 year olds, everyone was there.
As expected, it turned into a drunken trainwreck, was hosted by a friend who ran an Amiga BBS at the time. We (us Amiga guys) all woke up face down on the floor hungover the next morning, only to find the mouseball gone from the mouse of the A2000 030 the party host used to run his BBS. This was his only computer, and back then you couldn't exactly run out and buy a new mouseball - christ, most of the computers back then didn't have a mouse.
This of course was now a holy war. Greasy haired pimply kids loaded into their mothers cars, driving around house to house shouting at anyone who was at the party, wanting to know where the *bloody mouseball went. Turns out one of the "IBM/MS Guys", a Remote Access sysop thought it'd be amusing if he swiped it.
We weren't amused, but thinking back now it brings back fond memories of when being a computer user was truly something special :)
Shortly after that, the local FTN echomail hub decided he was going to gate all echomail through dialup net. Ran a DOS system, took him 3 hours to toss and package the mail and we got annoyed, real annoyed - knowing full well my '060 A4000 could do it in 5 minutes flat. I setup DLG and Mailmanager/GMS mailer and I showed it could be done so much more efficiently.
This led to another holy war that caused 6 Fidonet nodes to drop out of our zone at one time, effectively killing off Fidonet in our small podunk town, lol.
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I think we should all unite, for we all share one common interest....
... making fun of Atari ST users.
*looks for any interlopers*
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I think we should all unite, for we all share one common interest....
... making fun of Atari ST users.
*looks for any interlopers*
That's easy.
Just ask any Atari ST user to run The Great Giana Sisters on his machine.
If you can not imagine how bad it can be - I will mention one of the features - No scroll!
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I downloaded the browser the second week after it's release,
I downloaded it three times and I don't use any OS4 version at all. First time it was to keep it, second to take a look at the attached sobjs and the third one because I didn't remember where did I put the old version. And I know some OS3 users who are OS4 fans despiting never using it that like to download os4 software (they hope to be able to buy some os4 machine in the future but not at current prices).
Do you believe that every AmigaOS 4 user on earth (including those who don't use their Amigas for browsing) downloaded it?
I don't but I guess active users would download it, otherwise I wouldn't count them as active (or users at all)
The serial number of registrations is also a pure fallacy to count on it for statistics.
Indeed, but it gives an idea of the amount of machines running MorphOS2.x, not the amoujnt of users. I know some users that had various machines but later sold them with the license.
What happens to the serial when a person transfers his license to new machine (after proving the old broke)?
Nothing. No new invoice is provided. No new registration number is provided.
What about the people with three-four-five licenses? The ones who were unable to transfer their licenses? Are they counted 1-2-3-4 times?
It counts the number of machines, not users.
I have originals (disks and CDs) of the following AmigaOS versions:
1.2, 1.3, 2.04, 3.0, 3.1, 3.5, 3.9, 4.0, 4.1
How do you count me in the statistics?
From a NG perspective I would only count OS4.1 sales because the ones that bought 4.0 and didn't upgrade to 4.1 no longer use it or are inactive (at least from the cases I know). Active users upgrade.
There are too many variables in the amount of active users calculation that would make the "statistics" not statistics at all, but pure speculation and fabrication.
The truth is that the thread just provides information about the number of registered MorphOS machines, not real users. I know there are some 1.4.5 users out there but I wouldn't count them as users because they are inactive.
For AROS it's hard to know how many users are real users, most people I know download it from time to time to see what's going on but don't use it at all.
Real Amiga number of users is hard to know because activity is low (not many new developments), most of them come back to play some whdload games and that's all, they usually get bored soon but others join again due nostalgia. I suspect the number of classic "users" is higher than NG ones (AROS, MorphOS, OS4.x) although the activity of most of them is related to playing games or rarely watching a few demos and there's hardly any serious daily use. There's some people who also enjoy "collecting" and don't use them at all.
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What I do not particularly understand is the people who say they don't understand why all this fighting happens.
It is human nature to defend and justify the choices we make, be it the type of films we like or the type of music we love or the choice of phone OS etc etc etc.
You look at any facet of life and people argue black and blue and trash each others opinions. There is nothing new in this, or unique to MorphOS. AOS, Windows, MacOsx, iPhone, Android. Do you get the picture.
If there were only two people left in the world and one had a red house and one has a blue house they would argue on a forum about which the best type of house.
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I read that all the time that 68k users only play retro games. But when i look in new entries in aminet 68k beats all NGs by far (it is double all other combined). So "inactive" 68k seems not to be. Or how can you explain that?
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I read that all the time that 68k users only play retro games.
Most of the ones I know just play (these are usually the same that left Amiga in the 90's and came back again later). Not all of them of course. The ones that kept their miggies do more interesting things (but the more or less active ones use MorphOS as main OS)
But when i look in new entries in aminet 68k beats all NGs by far (it is double all other combined). So "inactive" 68k seems not to be. Or how can you explain that?
I get the impression most of this "new 68k software" are recompiled unix CLI tools using ixemul. There are great demos each easter but that's all. The new twitter client was a surprise.
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The weak point of you "MorphOS" users/fans is your proud that is at the edge of arrogance. Really have I to look in aminet and send you all the links? Your proud and ego will be the death of your platform...
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I fully understands how talking about user numbers in the hundreds (or below) is provoking to some, but the key term is *user* (not participator in the AW.net social club), and to quote myself from *a year ago* in this thread: "If the numbers seems disappointing to some people, I think they may have had an unrealistic view of the overall 'state of the nation'."
Fine. No how about you present a plan to correct that situation, now that we've completed the 11 page adventure to reach that obvious conclusion.
The only ones who would even bother trying to *use* (as a *desktop* system) MorphOS, OS4 or AROS are the old Amiga enthusiasts that are already here. As a desktop system, it simply won't offer anything to anyone else that established OS's won't do better, so no-one will bother even if given away *for free*, like we have seen with AROS. It can't attract users from the outside using the current model (read: the 1992 "desktop" model, remaining here from when the computer world looked completely different), so the amount of users each of these OS's have is a zero-sum game within the existing (and rapidly shrinking) "Amiga Community". All the OS developers knows this and has probably come to peace with this fact half a decade ago or more already, and none of them really cares, *they are all* (MorphOS, OS4 and AROS) developing their OS as a hobby, and they are developing it into something they would like to use themselves, with no thought about potential commercial applications for the OS outside the community.
Heck, not even Commodore thought of the Amiga as a PC. Had they had the resources and ambition to put up a fight with Microsoft (and Apple) back in the early 1990's where it could have mattered, then Amiga *could* have mattered on the desktop market today. I'm talking about a situation where the Adobe Creative Suite, Microsoft Office, etc, etc, etc would have been running on Amiga OS today (which would probably have been completely different by now anyway), not because someone put up a bounty and donated a developer machine to Apple or Microsoft, but because of Amiga's significance on the desktop market, much like they do on Mac OS. A high single-digit market share could have been enough. But Commodore never had that ambition (they were exploring their own PC line AFAIR), and they for sure didn't have the vast financial muscles this would have taken anyway, as became obvious to everyone in 1995, if not before.
You can say what you want about Bill Buck (and many does :lol:), but nobody can say he isn't constantly pursuing possibilities on new (or at least "new-ish") markets. His plan (through VisCorp) was to buy the Amiga bankrupt's estate and utilize Amiga technology in non-desktop context (while still providing a desktop "on the side"). While I don't think the ED ("Electronic Device", its development code name) would have been a great success back then (the real market for STB's wasn't there yet, at least not in Europe), I think it's a proper way of thinking about Amiga in a commercial context - use its strengths in real, commercial products for *other* markets than the desktop market, while still providing some kind of desktop configuration for developers.
So what are Amiga's strengths?
I think the most prominent strength (the only one) worth anything, is its tiny footprint, its leanness, it's efficiency. This can make really low performance (even "under-performing") devices feel fast, my Efika is a proof of that. And speaking of Efika, the LimePC (which was about to be far more than the netbook the OS4 crowd is talking about now, take a look at the pictures in post #3 (http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5638&forum=2)) can be considered an extrapolation of that one; and again: Here is Bill Buck, and again: Here is the Amiga (in the shape of MorphOS, in a non-desktop form (or at least: *Could* have been, had it been ported to the Efika 1.5 years faster, and then adapted to the needs accordingly after that)). And again: it fell through! :p ;)
There are many areas where Amiga's strengths makes sense, many kind of devices that aren't desktop (and aren't tablet or smartphones either, those ships have also sailed), that benefits from ultra-cheap (virtually no cost), ultra-lean HW. SCALA (Hollywood?) type of applications, In-shop displays, Info Kiosks. In car/in flight/on train info systems/"infotainment", etc. 64-bit, SMP, Memory Protection, resource tracking, etc, etc, won't be needed, not really wanted either, since it will destroy the simplicity by making things complex. Those are desktop kind of things, something Amiga isn't.
And how do you harness these strengths in a commercial context? Well, the first step will obviously to decide that this is what you really want to do, that your primary goal is no longer a desktop for the vanishing Amiga community. You should then carefully *keep* it lean, simple and clean all the way, you don't arbitrary bloat it by throwing .so crap or desktop stuff into the picture in an ad-hoc manner. You should start putting together a package that could meet the demands of the market or market niche you are aiming for.
STB's got itself a real market half a decade past the "ED". I actually think Amiga would make sense in that context. And STB's are moving into TV's now, making them more than "just a TV". Amiga would make sense in a TV, but it would need development to do so. This is still unexplored territory, virgin estate, go claim it! In a few years, the "Apple TV" would have evolved and taken the full step into a 50" iTV you can put on your wall, and Android will as well, both having a new set of media (iMovies, instead of iTunes, oh wait, it's already here! (http://www.apple.com/itunes/charts/movies/)) and a new App-store tuned for this new platform. Do it now, with the right partners, like electronics manufacturers, Spotify, Voddler, whatever (this is nothing you do as a five person, part time cellar company) and who knows, maybe you just might have a chance of claiming that single-digit market share you never got on the desktop market, by the time it becomes relevant to measure market shares on this yet to be developed market...?
But the thing is, those ultra-cheap and low-performance devices aren't made from PPC's, they are made from ARM, which disqualifies both MorphOS and OS4 before even getting to the starting line. These kinds of discussions are utterly pointless as it is.
The Science of Marketing isn't about how to put together an ad for a news paper or magazine, it's about identifying and satisfying needs on a market. And here is the shocker: There is no need on the desktop market for what MorphOS/OS4/AROS has to offer. The problem isn't about lacking promotion or advertizing, it's about completely lacking a commercial context.
But again, in any way, under any circumstances, *nothing* will happen as long as it's being tied to the PPC. The PPC is an Amiga killer, not an enabler, *especially* those costing $3,000...
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Version numbering is just numbers, but AmigaOS4 is still AmigaOS.
It's teh reel!!1!1!
(Wonder why it took so long...? :lol:)
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It is human nature to defend and justify the choices we make
Why do you feel your choices need defending? It's not human nature at all, it's all down to the individual. For example, I'm not a fan of Apple, and occassionally I get people saying I should get an iPhone. I don't feel insecure about choosing an N900, and I don't feel the need to defend my choice, beyond a simple 'my phone is right for me', or something along those lines.
Usually the people that shout loudest to defend their choices, are the ones that are most insecure. If you're truly happy with decision, then this 'defending' becomes largely unnecessary. Please note I'm not singling you out here, this is just a general observation.
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The weak point of you "MorphOS" users/fans is your proud that is at the edge of arrogance. Really have I to look in aminet and send you all the links? Your proud and ego will be the death of your platform...
I don't know why but once again I got the flashback of this marvellous posting at ann.lu (we are living year 2004) :) : Red and Blue trolls (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1072901036&category=web&number=16#comment)
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It more reminds me on "Groundhog Day" :-)
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@amigadave
:rolleyes:
The reason to why MorphOS registrations are constantly increasing (yes dave, *increasing*) has nothing to do with what people thinks about me or anyone else on *any* website forum. It has everything to do with its qualities and its extremely low threshold of entry. It costs very little to get going, and you get very much for your money. As simple as that.
And the other way around - the reason to why the OS4 graph (had there been one) would look like the MorphOS graph flipped upside down (I'm quite certain it would) in this zero-sum game, has very little to do with peoples opinions of Ben Hermans OS4 community split, what they think of the Friedens regular primadonna rage tantrums, or what people thinks of some of the Amigans.net regulars. It has more to do with the extremely high threshold of entry.
At least when it comes to *real users* (not just people discussion in forums, which doesn't reflect real users very well at all)!
Money *does* matter, maybe not to you, but to most people. And so does what you get for your money. Chatting on a website forum is *not* the same thing as using a system, although HenryCase and some others seems to think so. The problem isn't discussions in forums, nor the participants in the discussions. The problem isn't people voicing their opinions about the lunacy of the X1000, or the redundancy of OS4. The problem is the people trying to suppress these kind of discussions, trying to streamline the collective mind that the problems are no problems at all, making it impossible for the community to collectively learn from these mistakes. Inflicting taboos on discussions is what brought us the X1000, and is what will bring us the X2000 costing twice as much, driving twice as many people away. And you want everyone to stand beside the track, and cheer as it happens, because doing anything else would be "negative", and heavens forbid that!
If I would die tomorrow, it wouldn't change one single thing for neither the MorphOS community, nor the OS4 community, nor the amount of users any of these may have, that's not how it works. Using MorphOS or OS4 or AROS or Classic isn't about kissing, hugging and rolling around in a pile of pillows, and if that is your belief, chances are that you are more into the Social Club thing, than actual usage of either of these systems. Introducing some kind of a "Newspeak Dictionary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak)" where all words that could be used to describe OS4's problems (or the problems of the Amiga in general) are erased, and perhaps a thought police to go with that, won't, and I repeat: *won't* make the problems go away. Discussion might, at least it's a start. And anyone who doesn't agree with me (or anyone else for that matter) in a discussion, is completely free to raise their own voice, lifting their own opinion, putting forward their own arguments. There is nothing wrong with that, it's how it should be. So please stop "apologizing" for me "in the name of the MorphOS community". People do have brains to think for themselves, and a voice to raise for themselves. You are not a spokes person for me or anyone else. It doesn't work like that.
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I don't know why but once again I got the flashback of this marvellous posting at ann.lu (we are living year 2004) :) : Red and Blue trolls (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1072901036&category=web&number=16#comment)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Ah, those were the days...
:)
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:lol: :lol: :lol:
Ah, those were the days...
:)
I miss Ann :-)
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Why do you feel your choices need defending? It's not human nature at all, it's all down to the individual. For example, I'm not a fan of Apple, and occassionally I get people saying I should get an iPhone. I don't feel insecure about choosing an N900, and I don't feel the need to defend my choice, beyond a simple 'my phone is right for me', or something along those lines.
Usually the people that shout loudest to defend their choices, are the ones that are most insecure. If you're truly happy with decision, then this 'defending' becomes largely unnecessary. Please note I'm not singling you out here, this is just a general observation.
Thats funny because I have an N900 and would argue the toss against iPhone users. Then I used an Iphone and I cant believe the annoance of using systems like maemo and android anyway thats not the point....
Are you mental. Thats great that you dont feel the need to support shout about the choice of os, computer, car football team etc you make.
Most people do, you are inthe minority. I am not saying this is how things should be, just they way they are. Sorry when I use the words "I" and "You" I should reallyh be using "One".
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Would like to clairfy I own a mac mini witha reg morhpos . JHardly ever used it. Not used since last update.
So would not say I was user.
In fact Amiga.org just been my home for sooooo long cant leave. Thinking of selling all my amiga stuff as don't use it anymore and just takes up space.
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@amigadave
:rolleyes:
The reason to why MorphOS registrations are constantly increasing (yes dave, *increasing*) has nothing to do with what people thinks about me or anyone else on *any* website forum. It has everything to do with its qualities and its extremely low threshold of entry. It costs very little to get going, and you get very much for your money. As simple as that.
Actually the real reason is that it is a cumulative total, it's not possible to go down. What's interesting is the first derivative of the graph against time, ie the rate of registrations. This shows exactly what you'd expect - an increased rate of registrations with the introduction of new hardware support, followed by a decline in the rate over time. (Although the increase does stay pretty steadily at 75-100 per 6-month period.)
If anything, the graph shows that each new hardware platform has added a smaller initial 'bump' of new registrations than the previous.
And the other way around - the reason to why the OS4 graph (had there been one) would look like the MorphOS graph flipped upside down (I'm quite certain it would) in this zero-sum game, has very little to do with peoples opinions of Ben Hermans OS4 community split, what they think of the Friedens regular primadonna rage tantrums, or what people thinks of some of the Amigans.net regulars. It has more to do with the extremely high threshold of entry.
Again, this is a cumulative total so would probably look pretty similar.
At least when it comes to *real users* (not just people discussion in forums, which doesn't reflect real users very well at all)!
The weaknesses in the MorphOS graph are well established (no tracking of licenses transferred, multiple license ownership, etc). The speculation on OS4 numbers is just that - speculation (however in/accurate).
Additionally, at least the number of downloads shows active useres (if you accept it as a representative number). The MorphOS graph shows simply those who have registered over a several-year period.
Download figures for MorphOS2.7.iso might be a more equally unsound basis for comparison with the Timberwolf figures, if they were available.
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the graph shows that each new hardware platform has added fewer users than the previous.
Indeed it's cumulative, nobody claimed otherwise. And under all circumstances, it's a zero-sum game (few, if anyone at all, are coming in from the outside) in a situation where the total sum (thus *including* MorphOS) is shrinking, not growing. But that's not the point.
And indeed you can see visible bumps as support for new systems are introduced. I myself am represented at the start of the curve (registering MorphOS 2.0 for my Pegasos 2) and again when Mac Mini was introduced. I'm only using my Mac Mini, so you could divide my "contribution" to the curve with 2; I'm only one user. Some Pegasos owners probably waited a bit as well. And some are probably still using their Pegasos as their only MorphOS system. Maybe some of the first Mac Mini owners later got themselves a Power Mac as well, when that was introduced. But registering MorphOS *is* a financial commitment, thus it's not realistic to think that a great deal of newcomers during *the later* years have multiple registrations; when they got the system (probably a Mac Mini or a PowerMac) they already got from the start what represents the peak of the current options available, thus having little reasons to get multiple licenses, generally speaking. Yet the trend continues, steadily, even though there were several years since support for the last HW was introduced.
You can also see how the *tilt* of the curve got visibly steeper after the introduction of Mac support (and this tilt has been steady for several years now), which clearly shows the benefit of cheap mainstream vs. more expensive custom solutions. Hmm, I wonder how steep the tilt would be, had x86 support been introduced...?
There are many lessons to be learned from this graph! :)
Again, this is a cumulative total so would probably look pretty similar.
No it probably woudln't, I'd say that the odds are "3000 to 200" (get the point? ;)) that more people from the Classic/AROS/OS4 got themselves a MorphOS machine, than Classic/AROS/MorphOS got themselves a OS4 machine.
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So would not say I was user.
Indeed the definition of "user" is very difficult, and for this reason you may be fooled to think that one platform has more *users* than the other, judged by forum activity (you are still here chatting, aren't you? ;)). But at least this phenomenon should strike equally across the entire platform...
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I would say the vast majority of people on this site do not use Amigas anymore
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Thats funny because I have an N900 and would argue the toss against iPhone users. Then I used an Iphone and I cant believe the annoance of using systems like maemo and android anyway thats not the point....
Are you mental. Thats great that you dont feel the need to support shout about the choice of os, computer, car football team etc you make.
Most people do, you are inthe minority. I am not saying this is how things should be, just they way they are. Sorry when I use the words "I" and "You" I should reallyh be using "One".
Am I mental?
Here's the thing; I don't define myself through what I buy. Perhaps that is unusual in the consumerist culture we live in, but I don't see what I buy as an extension of who I am, or at least I don't take it personally if others choose something else.
Football team is a good analogy. I couldn't care less about other teams, nor their performance, as long as my team plays well then I'm happy. I don't care if someone supports another team, the performance of my team is what I enjoy.
Does that make more sense to you?
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Am I mental?
Here's the thing; I don't define myself through what I buy. Perhaps that is unusual in the consumerist culture we live in, but I don't see what I buy as an extension of who I am, or at least I don't take it personally if others choose something else.
Football team is a good analogy. I couldn't care less about other teams, nor their performance, as long as my team plays well then I'm happy. I don't care if someone supports another team, the performance of my team is what I enjoy.
Does that make more sense to you?
I perfectly understand you. I think maybe mental was too strong a word. I was saying that most people are not like you is all . Was trying to explain why people defend things the way they do is all.
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@takemehomegrandma
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my question.
I gather your thrust about past failures is related to the inability to bring things to market in timely fashion, as opposed to a lack of ideas and/or skill to do the job.
If that is the case, I agree.
I would also have to interject that politics has sadly played a part in some of these projects not materializing.
If you ever sense the day we can eliminate politics from the the equation, just drop me a line. Heh.
Oh...and congrats for making the "sane" list on ann.lu. Heh.
#6
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@takemehomegrandma
Time you backed up your claims isn't it? You make comments about the size off the OS4 user base with no real evidence at all time after time. Saying something ad nauseum does not make it true. It is far more likely that the OS4 user base is bigger than MOS IMHO considering the fact that ACube and AEon have both also invested in its future. I think it highly unlikely that either of them would have taken the time, effort or financial risk of doing so based on the falling user base you suppose. Why do you feel the need to make such claims? The existence of OS4 in no way diminishes your use and enjoyment of MOS, in fact it does quite the opposite as MOS users get to use some of the same software. Very odd behaviour indeed. Perhaps your time would be better spent developing software for your beloved platform instead of trying to undermine the efforts of Hyperion.
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I miss Ann :-)
Who doesn't..?
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@amigadave
The reason to why MorphOS registrations are constantly increasing (yes dave, *increasing*) has nothing to do with what people thinks about me or anyone else on *any* website forum. It has everything to do with its qualities and its extremely low threshold of entry. It costs very little to get going, and you get very much for your money. As simple as that.
And the other way around - the reason to why the OS4 graph (had there been one) would look like the MorphOS graph flipped upside down (I'm quite certain it would) .
Sorry, but that's just wrong. The MorphOS graph is just a summation about sold licenses. It cannot decrease.
For OS4 it is the same. Of course today (or tomorrow) there cannot lesser copies been sold than yesterday. The number of sold copies/licenses can stagnate in worst case, but cannot decrease.
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I perfectly understand you. I think maybe mental was too strong a word. I was saying that most people are not like you is all . Was trying to explain why people defend things the way they do is all.
There are patterns of behaviour in our social interactions, that are most likely derived from our tribal roots, where you get people who want to 'belong' to something, whether that be a social group, an ideal, a nationality, etc... The people who need this sense of 'belonging' the most tend to the people who are the most insecure. This ties in with what I was saying before.
Human nature is something that's bred into us, something we have little control over. Getting worked up about something is always a choice. Some people may be more indisposed towards aggression than others, but they always have a choice. I personally find the term 'human nature' gets misused quite a bit, and invariably the outcome of this misuse is in people distancing themselves from personal responsibility, blaming their genes for their lack of self-control. Again, I'm not singling you out, this is just a general observation.
So let's say this, you notice people 'defending' things a lot, not just in the Amiga community, but also in the world at large. The question is why do you see a lot of it? Put human nature aside for one minute, and try and consider other explanations.
Thanks for reading.
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HI,
"MorphOS Amiga done right"
Why do we insult the original Amiga creators and users with a saying like this. The only thing Amiga like about MorphOS is that it is an emulator being used on what else but ugh! A MAC.
If morphOS was being created to be used on anything else but a MAC I would give it a whirl. Most of you newbees like probably takemehomegrand don't remember how the Mac people used to laugh at and criticize the Amiga.
with saying like:
Its a fairy good computer if you like playing simple games.
The Amiga a work computer Paleeease
When the Amiga can do good desktop publishing instead of cartoonish papers tell them to try to compete with a MAC
and now drumroll please
you expect me to buy a Mac and call it an Amiga.......
Why don't you take your MorphOS and you emulator program and go to a Mac board and try to sell it there. They ought to be thrilled that they can have an Amiga emulator.
If MorphOS was used on any other system besides a MAC, I might give it a whirl, but as long as it is on a Mac or apple product. Don't even insult me as one of the first Amiga users that it is an Amiga. I would rather put my hands in a dead burning Amiga to try to save it then touch a Mac.
By the way, to all of you who don't know, I worked for Commodore selling Amiga's for over three years, all three years I won salesman of the year award by my store for selling Amiga's, and really got tired of hearing , no thanks I will buy a Mac because it is a real computer by some real stupid people who after questioning them why they thought the Mac was a real computer? their answer was because my friend has one.
Now I really don't like PC's either, but seeing that I had to choose something, I chose a PC because most of the people who bought Amiga's owned PC's and they thought the Amiga was better and watched my demo and where amazed by what it could do, while the stuck up snobish Mac people just said I don't want a toy.
smerf
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HI,
"MorphOS Amiga done right"
...If morphOS was being created to be used on anything else but a MAC I would give it a whirl.
OK, then you're obligated to buy a Pegasos or Efika as MorphOS ran on those before it was ported to Macs. Or you could run it on a PPC equipped Amiga (which the original version of MorphOS ran on before the Pegasos was designed).
Just because you're anti-Apple doesn't mean you can slam our OS.
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OK, then you're obligated to buy a Pegasos or Efika as MorphOS ran on those before it was ported to Macs. Or you could run it on a PPC equipped Amiga (which the original version of MorphOS ran on before the Pegasos was designed).
Just because you're anti-Apple doesn't mean you can slam our OS.
Hi,
@Iggy,
At one time was really enthused about MorphOS and couldn't wait to get a PPC card for my Amiga, then when I finally put one together and got it up and running, the Amiga one just upped and disappeared from your boards.
I notice that when people on this board say how great Cloanto's Amiga Forever is you all bash it because it runs on a PC, but it works real well and I don't have to dirty my hands by touching a Mac or wasting my money on a computer that I just can't stand.
Last week I accidently got pushed in a Sams by a person in a hurry and touched a Mac. I got sick for a week, and the first hour after touching it I threw up. It was really disgusting, not the throwing up, but the touching a Mac.
Anyhow I wish the best for MorphOS, a lot of Mac people will probably find it useful, because it has to be better and do more than their operating system.
smerf
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Hi Smerf,
You know I can't really get mad at you (after all, you're a pancake head).
And I too know Apple phobia.
Personally, I always thought Steve Jobs (RIP) was a serious knob.
But since Apple abandoned PPCs and its older product lines (something they do regularly), I felt comfortable taking their discarded product, getting rid of their crappy OS, and making it run like a proper computer.
So while even the thought of Apple gives me hives, I can tolerate the machine I'm using (of course about half the internal components are not Apple parts).
Oh, BTW, while I am a MorphOS user, even I am getting tired of takemehomegrandma's posts.
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Oh, BTW, while I am a MorphOS user, even I am getting tired of takemehomegrandma's posts.
My interest in MorphOS is inversely proportional to the number of takemehomegrandma posts about MorphOS.
@smerf
I remember those people too.
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@ smerf
preaching to the converted here mate;) no Apple computers allowed in my house old or new! period
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@AmigaDave
I don't remember if I told this here or at mz.org before but I repeat myself: why would any sane person give a flying f about some individuals loud opinions? I would sort of understand if some people avoid certain operating system due to incidences like for example the Bill Buck-show many years back, but not when it's just a normal user shouting out loud.
This ain't North Korea, one can actually utilise their brain.
As you can see from some of the responses in this very thread and I can tell you about others that I have corresponded with personally, all the fighting does affect some potential MorphOS and OS4 users and developers. They might otherwise be interested in using one or both of the NG PPC Amiga inspired platforms, but due to the climate found in most Amiga forum sites, they have backed off and gone back to what ever they were doing before their interest in the Amiga brought them back to see what is going on today. TakeMeHomeGrandma is not the only person responsible for this environment, but he is a regular participant that stirs things up again and again, and again. It is not just one person, but it is a vocal minority of users on both sides that make the most noise and cause 95% of the trouble, as I believe that most MorphOS and OS4 users are tired of the fighting just as much as I am, and wish it would stop.
@TakeMeHomeGrandma,
I know that the sales of MorphOS registrations continue as existing users buy different hardware to run MorphOS on, or some new users show up. What I am trying to get you to understand, is that your behavior and that of others that also promote more fighting between MorphOS and OS4 users, is turning off some potential new MorphOS users from trying it out, or registering an existing demo version. You, and people like you, are having a negative effect on MorphOS registrations (verified fact) and I would like you to stop this self defeating behavior.
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Very well put, Amigadave.
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By the way, to all of you who don't know, I worked for Commodore selling Amiga's for over three years, all three years I won salesman of the year award by my store for selling Amiga's, and really got tired of hearing , no thanks I will buy a Mac because it is a real computer by some real stupid people who after questioning them why they thought the Mac was a real computer? their answer was because my friend has one.
And you went to insult your customers then? :)
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Off topic:
Am i the only one here who thinks surfing the net on an Amiga is like... just wrong? I use MorphOS but i never use it for the web except for updates and other stuff. All my casual surfing is done on my everyday pc. Sure, i know Amiga's have a history of using BBS that goes back to the 1980's but i can't quite shake the feeling that it just wasn't meant to be.
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Off topic:
Am i the only one here who thinks surfing the net on an Amiga is like... just wrong?
Yes. Yes you are. :)
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Time you backed up your claims isn't it?
That is *all* I have been doing ever since HenryCase started this debate, and the keywords are (and always were):
-probably (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=624609&postcount=13)
-I'm not claiming to be sitting on a complete set of statistics, there simply is no way of knowing for sure, we can only make assumptions and more or less educated guesses. (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=683228&postcount=68)
-I'm *not* claiming with certainty that things are this way (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=683255&postcount=83)
-in no way could be considered as facts (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=683274&postcount=91)
-*could* (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=683291&postcount=98)
-*Plausible*, not a fact (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=683502&postcount=152)
-While not claiming with certainty that *it is* this way, I have during my posts put up at least 6 facts that combined gives a plausible case how it *could be* this way (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=683541&postcount=157)
You see, Henry made a Case on how the possibility of MorphOS would have more users than OS4 would be an inconceivable, extraordinary claim, just wishful thinking, not anything based in reality, and he based this upon "facts" like posting frequency on web forums, the general opinion, and Aminet *uploads*. I discussed how it *could* be this way, using reasonable assumptions based on the limited statistics we actually have at hand, combined with a view of a plausible effect and impact of the differences in the MorphOS/OS4 offerings when it comes to HW, OS and most of all, the price/threshold for a user to "get going" on either of the two ($200 vs $3,000 *will* have an effect). Not claiming it to be facts, just putting up a discussion on its probability.
If you aren't going to read my posts anyway, please don't ask me to write new ones...
@zylesea
You didn't read quite the whole thread before making that post, did you? ;)
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OK, what started, and ended, as a 5 page thread *a year ago*, has now grown to 17 pages, that's 11 pages containing nothing but upset emotions against the probability of MorphOS having more users than OS4. I actually find this hilarious, astonishing, and I guess you can learn something every day about the mindset of some people in this "community". What I have learned from this thread, is:
1. MorphOS registration statistics are utterly worthless as a base for user number estimations (estimations != facts), since everyone knows that MorphOS users has piles of old Macs with registered copies of MorphOS lying around their houses.
2. Timberwolf download statistics are utterly worthless as a base for OS4 user number estimations (estimations != facts), since so few active OS4 users would bother downloading it for free to try out the Frieden's take on Firefox for OS4 (a pretty insignificant piece of SW anyway, that *nobody* has been waiting for since 1995). New browsers aren't needed anyway, since "MUI OWB 1.9" satisfies every browser need an OS4 users would have.
3. A much better way of getting a picture of current amount of users, would be to look at forum activity on Amigaworld.net and Amigans.net vs. MorphZone.org, and to look at Aminet uploads. This will give you the *correct* picture of OS4 having a lot more users than MorphOS.
4. Things like threshold of entry can *not* affect amount of users over long periods of time. A few years of $20 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=powermac+g4&_sacat=0&_odkw=powermac+g4&_osacat=0&_from=R40) (twenty dollars) systems (plus €111 MorphOS registration) systems available will *not* attract more users than a $1,000+ system, especially not since the former runs circles around the latter. Not to mention the $3,000 option, performing at about the same level as the former. And "it is far more likely that the OS4 user base is bigger than MOS IMHO considering the fact that ACube and AEon have both also invested in its future."
5. And things like one OS being here half a decade before the other, always having had the upper hand when it comes to qualities and features, etc, can't play a part in the total amount of users either. And who needs drivers for their HW?
6. Pointing out the possibility of MorphOS (in respect to the above discarded points) could actually have more users than OS4, would only be "wishful thinking", an "extraordinary claim" needing extraordinary evidence, since "the general opinion" says otherwise (and there is no need to prove "the general opinion's" view, especially not when "the general opinion's" view is based on how much fun it is doing IRC style chatting at Amigaworld.net). And...
7. ...anyone *daring* to point out this possibility of MorphOS could having more users than OS4, as a result of the differences between OS4's and MorphOS's approaches to the world, is "a dog barking" that "insult the original Amiga creators and users with a saying like this", simply put an evil troll who should collectively be beaten into submission and blamed and branded as being the one responsible for the shrinking of the Amiga community, because...
8. ...everyone knows that it's the online posts from a single user in a community forum that determines the usefulness and desirability of a computer system, and not the technical merits and threshold of entry, and people leaving the community is not doing so because the complete absence of any kind of credible future, and fresh users not entering the community is not because Amiga can't offer anything whatsoever to the desktop market it tries to serve. So the correct online behavior is to stand in straight lines, cheering "Yes", "Yes", "Yes" as soon as a new $3,000 system with 2007 level laptop performance is being introduced as the answer to humanity's collective prayers, because doing anything else, like calling this development insanity, would be "Negativity". And the only thing that will revitalize and bring Amiga to world domination, is "Positivism", which makes perfect sense, since it's the online posts in web forums in a forgotten corner of the Internet that matters, and not stupid things like characteristics, features and a credible future of *the products*.
By the way, the entire post above (except the initial paragraph) is written in a style called sarcasm (Wikipedia: Sarcasm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm)). I am explicitly pointing this out, since it has become obvious to me that the reading comprehension (Wikipedia: Reading Comprehension (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_comprehension)) is very low in the remaining community, since nobody seems to understand the concept of words and terms like "probable", "possible", "plausible", "could be", "reasonable", "estimations", "assumptions", "not facts", "user" and "discussion". (I can't be bothered to link an explanation to each of these words, you can look it up yourselves: Wikipedia.org (http://wikipedia.org))
It's obvious that the Amiga community isn't ready to deal with things like realistic estimations of current active user base, it probably contradicts its deeply rooted image of itself as being counted in several thousands, especially the OS4 side. I'm OK with that, but the discussion in this thread is going in circles, it leads nowhere. So maybe it's time to close the thread now? Maybe reality may sink in in time, and this subject can be discussed again in the future, but "we" are obviously not ready for this yet...
Over and out!
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Making your retort long and therefore utterly TL;DR doesn't mean it holds any water.
Right now, 99.99% of the people skimming over what you typed TMHG, and are simply saying to themselves "oh, great, more facts" and they quit reading. Just like they have for ages when it became apparent anything you ever had to say was fresh off some weird propaganda train where numbers and facts could be invented, rather than just shut up and try and be respectful of peoples options.
The big words and eloquent statements have run dry. You shot your spunk, told too many insane claims. Rather than just chalk it up to "different strokes for different folks", you're still shoveling bull**** into the BS train.
You're THAT guy. You're that turbonerd on the Interwebz that stays up nights arguing that the sky is purple, citing websites for GREAT JUSTICE in defense of what you've said. You are being a bore.
The fact that you've been so gung ho to be utterly trolled for *over a year* (as you put it), is the most hysterical joke of all.
"Hilarious! Astonishing! Learn something every day about peoples mindsets!"
Just way too funny.
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@TMHG
:banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:
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One MorphOS statistic that can't be known. How many people don't mind rebooting for 4 seconds every 30 minutes, thus don't register.
:)
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You shot your spunk
:biglaugh:
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You see, Henry made a Case on how the possibility of MorphOS would have more users than OS4 would be an inconceivable, extraordinary claim, just wishful thinking, not anything based in reality, and he based this upon "facts" like posting frequency on web forums, the general opinion, and Aminet *uploads*.
I've let this slide for a while, but since you keep bringing it up, let's clarify the purpose behind the 'forum activity' and 'Aminet uploads' comments was and is.
The remarks about forum activity and Aminet uploads were intended as anecdotal evidence, a way to assess the level of activity surrounding the OS, since 'active users' were rightly being seen as different from 'users'; people who just try out the OS vs. people that are engaged with using it.
However, you should note that, unlike you, I never tried to use this ancedotal evidence as the basis for a guess on user numbers. There isn't a single perfect way to measure 'active' users, but forum activity and software uploads do give you some idea for the general trends in activity and interest.
Let's remind ourselves of the context in which the comments were made. You said:
"About 700 active MorphOS users would mean 2x the amount of about 300 active OS4 users coupled with some 50 active AROS users.
But again, your guess is as good as mine..."
Then I said:
"That's your guess. Okay. Let's look at it another way. How active are the following forums"
So as you can see, I was offering an alternative perspective on activity around an OS. You then assume I can use this perspective to give you a number of users, I never made such a claim.
In this whole thread, I never saw you come up with a single measure of how to look at 'active' users, rather than users as a whole. Do you have an alternative way to explore this, or do you now admit there is no way to know how many of those registered MorphOS copies are still in use (beyond shrieking 'they paid for it, so they must be using it')?
Do you understand now?
Thanks for reading.
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You guys are doing a pretty good job reminding me why I don't want to waste the money and time on a "next gen" system.
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OK, what started, and ended, as a 5 page thread *a year ago*, has now grown to 17 pages, that's 11 pages containing nothing but upset emotions against the probability of MorphOS having more users than OS4. I actually find this hilarious, astonishing, and I guess you can learn something every day about the mindset of some people in this "community". What I have learned from this thread, is:
1. MorphOS registration statistics are utterly worthless as a base for user number estimations (estimations != facts), since everyone knows that MorphOS users has piles...
Do you have any evidence to back up that claim?
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the reason to why the OS4 graph (had there been one) would look like the MorphOS graph flipped upside down (I'm quite certain it would)
I see no probably, maybe or otherwise in the above statement from your post, it was presented as something you considered "quite certain" not just a wild guess based on some hunch. Just for the record, I have no problem with MOS and salute the work of the developers wholeheartedly and I sure as hell did read the whole thread. Honestly, I'de just like to know what your problem is with OS4 and to see you present some real evidence as to why you think it's got a shrinking userbase, from what you've presented so far you've made up your mind based on the most spurios of "evidence".
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@takemehomegrandma
I don't know about you, but I'm getting quite tired of this thread. Neither of us is going to 'win', so how about we call a truce? I'll stop posting in this thread if you do the same. Deal?
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One MorphOS statistic that can't be known. How many people don't mind rebooting for 4 seconds every 30 minutes, thus don't register.
:)
Boot time for a warm re-start is actually about 30 seconds.
Good point though.
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do we see amiga os4 users post things like takemehomegrandma do on a.org at http://www.morphzone.org/ ???....
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OK, what started, and ended, as a 5 page thread *a year ago*, has now grown to 17 pages, that's 11 pages containing nothing but upset emotions against the probability of MorphOS having more users than OS4. I actually find this hilarious, astonishing, and I guess you can learn something every day about the mindset of some people in this "community". What I have learned from this thread, is:
1. MorphOS registration statistics are utterly worthless as a base for user number estimations (estimations != facts), since everyone knows that MorphOS users has piles of old Macs with registered copies of MorphOS lying around their houses.
Why do you think so? I think it's pretty clear the registration numbers are sequential. So it should be accurate. If it is true that people have copies of registered MorphOS copies "lying around" not in use then the actual active usage of registered MorphOS is lower. But I do highly doubt that many people have copies "lying around" since the price is over 100 Euros per registered copy, and for much of the time was closer to 150. Sure, there may be some people, but I would doubt there would be "piles of old Macs with registered copies".
What is unknown is the number of *unregistered* users who are *actively* using MorphOS. That number could be less, equal to, or higher than the registered users.
Higher numbers for AROS, MorphOS, and AmigaOS 4 are good for all of the "community". If there was 10,000 MorphOS users that would probably mean more developers writing apps that would (fairly easily) re-compile for 68k, AROS, and AmigaOS4, so it would only benefit all of us.
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do we see amiga os4 users post things like takemehomegrandma do on a.org at http://www.morphzone.org/ ???....
Is a.org os4 only forum?. I don't understand what are you trying to say, maybe language barrier as english is not my main language.
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do we see amiga os4 users post things like takemehomegrandma do on a.org at http://www.morphzone.org/ ???....
MZ is MorphOS specific forum, however, you are free to open up a thread at our General Discussion. Welcome.
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MZ is MorphOS specific forum, however, you are free to open up a thread at our General Discussion. Welcome.
Absolutely. Two current threads focus on the X1000 and AmigaDave's First Contact system. Hardly MorphOS specific topics.
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that just shows that os4 users post and behave at the morphzone.org, but when morphos guys come here at a.org they act like aholes.... i just wonder why.... there is nothing that justify their behavior at a.org at all.
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It's been my observation that they basically act the same. Same culprits on both sites ;)
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Hi,
@Takemehomegrandma,
"You didn't read quite the whole thread before making that post, did you?"
Hold on please, I am down to page 256 of your post, should finish it within the next hour, Thanks
smerf
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And you went to insult your customers then? :)
Hi,
No, I sure wouldn't insult a customer, I just pointed those people to the Apple representative, and then just watched, he was a real snobbish A##hole, most people walked away from him and they just left the store or came back to talk to me.
I just wish MorphOS would have continued their support for the PPC Amiga board, but then again we are talking about a real rare beast, aren't we. I really have no qualms about MorphOS just the platform they run on.
To all you AOS4 users, I have AOS4.1 for my Amiga 1200 with a 240mhz ppc blizzard board, Commodore 64 users would be happy to hear that their computer is faster. Is Aos4.1 usable on the Amiga with a PPC, I have it just for a curiosity, a very slow curiosity.
Just have a lot of beer while you are waiting for it to do something.
smerf
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Do you have any evidence to back up that claim?
Hi,
". MorphOS registration statistics are utterly worthless as a base for user number estimations (estimations != facts), since everyone knows that MorphOS users has piles..."
Oh wow!!
MorphOS users have piles, I know all about them, they itch like heck sometimes, and you know it usually happens in public where you really are to embarrassed to scratch. I believe it is at that time you run to the nearest restroom if you can find one, sometimes you try to scratch secretly by putting your crack on the corner of the table, oh man how all those MorphOS users must suffer. A little prep H though soothes the pain for at least a couple of hours, just don't use to much because it will bleed through your pants and it looks like you botched in your pants.
smerf
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AROS WINS regardless of user count.
We do whatever it takes...
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OK, no more cocoa for Smerf and Haywire.
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@ Haywire:
At last, a sensible post! :D
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that just shows that os4 users post and behave at the morphzone.org, but when morphos guys come here at a.org they act like aholes.... i just wonder why.... there is nothing that justify their behavior at a.org at all.
Everybody behaves.. they know I will shove my foot up their asses kneedeep if they don't.
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/www.viewshound.com/publisher/publications/articles/feature_images/10203/span20/foot%20up%20butt.jpg?2011)
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Boot time for a warm re-start is actually about 30 seconds.
Good point though.
One MorphOS statistic that can't be known. How many people don't mind rebooting for 4 seconds every 30 minutes, thus don't register.
:)
I don't know why your MorphOS computer takes about 30 seconds to warm boot Iggy, as all of mine only take about 5 to 7 seconds from the time I click on the continue arrow from the boot option screen. If you don't have a dual boot setup, then maybe it takes your system that long to look through all of the available boot devices and this is causing your boot time to extend longer. I don't currently have any MorphOS only systems setup, so I can't check to see how long a warm reset takes on such a system, but there are probably ways to shorten your warm reset and cold boot times through options in the Open Firmware, if you could turn off certain boot devices, so O.F. does not look for them during the boot process.
OK, what started, and ended, as a 5 page thread *a year ago*, has now grown to 17 pages, that's 11 pages containing nothing but upset emotions against the probability of MorphOS having more users than OS4.
First I don't see how you get 11 pages when you subtract the 5 page thread from the current 17 pages you mentioned above, but maybe your perception of the world also includes your own version of mathematics. I would say that the additional pages of outrage and upset users are a direct result of your intentional "stirring of the flame war pot", which you often feel the need to do. It is not what you point out with your facts or your conclusions, based on your facts, it is the way you present them and the malicious intent behind your actions that cause the reactions of other users, and I am sure that you are quite pleased that you were successful in creating such a large reaction.
I think it is a sign of your own mental condition and state of mind. It appears to be compulsive behavior that you can no longer control, and if I did not assume that you are an adult, I would think that it is just immature behavior, but I don't think that is the case in this instance.
You guys are doing a pretty good job reminding me why I don't want to waste the money and time on a "next gen" system.
My interest in MorphOS is inversely proportional to the number of takemehomegrandma posts about MorphOS.
Hi Smerf,
Oh, BTW, while I am a MorphOS user, even I am getting tired of takemehomegrandma's posts.
As you can see from the above three posts (and many others in this thread), TakeMeHomeGrandma's approach to trying to make any point, about any topic is quickly losing credibility with many members here. But that won't stop him from continuing his compulsive behavior. Unless perhaps he finds some professional help, or "Gets a Life".
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_the_Wise
Cf. the ring parable.
/thread
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I just wish MorphOS would have continued their support for the PPC Amiga board, but then again we are talking about a real rare beast, aren't we. I really have no qualms about MorphOS just the platform they run on.
it is shame that last PPC Amiga boards were made almost 15 years ago. They were nice, I had one, but they are very slow.
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It's been my observation that they basically act the same. Same culprits on both sites ;)
of course there is culprits on both sides, but none of these amiga os4 culprits goes over to morphzone.org and start trolling all over the place for years.
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of course there is culprits on both sides, but none of these amiga os4 culprits goes over to morphzone.org and start trolling all over the place for years.
A1260, amiga.org is not an OS4 only site, it's a cross platform Amiga site.
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of course there is culprits on both sides, but none of these amiga os4 culprits goes over to morphzone.org and start trolling all over the place for years.
ssolie did (although he got tired soon)
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A couple of people have tried AROS in the last week... http://vmwaros.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/3000-times-thank-you.html I wonder how many would consider themselves an AROS user? More then 50 i would guess ;)
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i rather doubt that it is safe to add up the downloads of both distros to sum up that there were 3k different individuals downloading. i would expect many people downloaded or resumed download (which would supposedly count as download) multiple times for several reasons and also that those interested downloaded both versions independently. still this is quite a number indicating a high potential user interest, which actually dramatically exceeds the numbers related to, say, os4 downloads.
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It is a great number. It is not meaning of course that there are 3000 Icaros User now (and there are other distributions) but it shows the big potential for the platform. And new projects like AEROS or Raspberry support and improving 68k are becoming reality. So I am convinced that there is a real future for Aros now.
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A couple of people have tried AROS in the last week... http://vmwaros.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/3000-times-thank-you.html I wonder how many would consider themselves an AROS user? More then 50 i would guess ;)
Can add 300 downloads from AspireOS to this number (and that's all over the past 6 days):
http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=65028#forumpost65028
However, as we know, downloads != 'active users'.
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Can add 300 downloads from AspireOS to this number (and that's all over the past 6 days):
http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=65028#forumpost65028
However, as we know, downloads != 'active users'.
That's true, alot of people may still be on 1.3.3 ;-)
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My post was deleted? WHAT?
I can't help it if I use profanity at times. I suppose I could stop using language like that. Its the coke and meth and asian hookers I can't stop.
Hey whatever it takes to keep me coding and happy.
MorphOS looks great to me but I keep saying I'm going to buy a mac and try it and so far I haven't. There is alot higher likelihood that I'll do that than
buy os4 hardware though, thats for sure.
My AROS box does most of what I want right now. I'm thankful for all the little updates and fixes lately. Tonight in fact I'm going to reinstall the latest icaros and amiga forever. Then I have 8 gigs of dos games to transfer, and many thousands of classic amiga games and apps. Its likely that I'll never be happy with any system, amigoid or other... Always tinkering.
Steven
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AROS WINS regardless of user count.
We do whatever it takes...
Last edited by Argo; Today at 05:21 AM.. Reason: Trolling, profanity, attacks.
Wait a.org has mods?
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MorphOS looks great to me but I keep saying I'm going to buy a mac and try it and so far I haven't. There is alot higher likelihood that I'll do that than
buy os4 hardware though, thats for sure.
My AROS box does most of what I want right now. I'm thankful for all the little updates and fixes lately. Tonight in fact I'm going to reinstall the latest icaros and amiga forever. Then I have 8 gigs of dos games to transfer, and many thousands of classic amiga games and apps. Its likely that I'll never be happy with any system, amigoid or other... Always tinkering.
Steven
Steven's probably using the best NG OS suited to running old software.
Since OS4's creators have full access to 3.1 that doesn't make sense (and MorphOS is more clearly focused on new software ). Ah, so be it.
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Wait a.org has mods?
Yeah I didn't think they deleted whole messages.
My post was a joke about all the coke, crack, heroin, beer, liquor and asian hookers that I have invested in for AROS bounties and AROS coders over the years. As I recall I joked that OS4 and MorphOS didn't do what it takes. WE DO at the AROS camp.
Need meth to code? We'll provide you it. Like ASIAN hookers? Code for us!
It wasn't intended to be insulting to anyone, geez.
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i rather doubt that it is safe to add up the downloads of both distros to sum up that there were 3k different individuals downloading. i would expect many people downloaded or resumed download (which would supposedly count as download) multiple times for several reasons and also that those interested downloaded both versions independently. still this is quite a number indicating a high potential user interest, which actually dramatically exceeds the numbers related to, say, os4 downloads.
Sorry, I can't understand what do you mean with the passage in bold. Download number has been first calculated starting from the moved terabytes (2.77 TB), divided by the size of the package (less than 1 GB): starting and resuming a download would still totalize 1 GB of transferred data. Then it was proved by numbers of hits and visits, so I am sure at least 3,000 copies of the Live! package are now stored on the same number of different hard drives.
This doesn't mean we have 3,000 users, of course, but that there are 3,000 people interested in trying Icaros, which is more likely, and also a good result in general. Even if 1 on 5 would decide to keep AROS installed and play around with it from time to time, that would mean having 600 users. But also gaining 300 would be a great success. We're talking about a hobby, after all, and I can't be happier of the result.
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Paolone,
I just tried 1.4 on my windows pc. LOOKS great! Will be installing it on my native box next! Thanks for all your hard work.
You deserve 2 or 3 asian guest services representatives for this! (At least!)
Steven
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Sorry, I can't understand what do you mean with the passage in bold. Download number has been first calculated starting from the moved terabytes (2.77 TB), divided by the size of the package (less than 1 GB): starting and resuming a download would still totalize 1 GB of transferred data. Then it was proved by numbers of hits and visits, so I am sure at least 3,000 copies of the Live! package are now stored on the same number of different hard drives.
This doesn't mean we have 3,000 users, of course, but that there are 3,000 people interested in trying Icaros, which is more likely, and also a good result in general. Even if 1 on 5 would decide to keep AROS installed and play around with it from time to time, that would mean having 600 users. But also gaining 300 would be a great success. We're talking about a hobby, after all, and I can't be happier of the result.
okay, lets say even that method of counting downloads might be inaccurate. taking such a huge piece of a file into account a user might not be successful and choose to restart. even though even halved its still a huge number for amiga relations. even though im not personally interested in aros x86 at this time i applaud.
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I can't help it if I use profanity at times.
Yes, you can. It's not as if you can have a "slip of the keyboard", everything you type you do consciously.
Look, this is a family oriented site. Try to remember that.
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Frankly Steven,
Asian hookers don't appeal to me (I'm married and sex is pretty much a given).
Meth and coke, nay I'll just take caffeine.
You could offer to pay me in beer though.
I'd code for beer.
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I'd code for beer.
http://xkcd.com/323/
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http://xkcd.com/323/
That was great! Thank you k-dog.
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A family site? Are you kidding me?
What if my family happens to like profanity.meth and asian hookers?
Iggy, what kind of beer do you like and what can you help AROS with?
I'd love to see a speech recognition program coded or ported to AROS.
AROS
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Last I knew this was a PG-13 site. We DO have minors that read this site, so watch what you say or get modded.
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Oh no the great and poweful Argo might delete my posts. dude, get a sense of humor and find a new power trip. The sites supposed to be fun.
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Oh no the great and poweful argo might delete my posts. dude, get a sense of humor and find a new power trip. The sites supposed to be fun.
If you block him he won't be able to see your posts.
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Dude, I'm a Mod. Those smoke and mirror tricks don't work.
I just don't seek jokes about illicit drug use and hookers as appropriate for the 13+ crowd.
Though if haywirepc needs a weekend away, I can certainly oblige that. Though in truth, this topic has gone off target and was a bad idea in the first place.
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Argo is implying he knows who I am. Yes I happen to be a professional magician.
And also a rapid amiga guy. Is he inviting me for a weekend at his house to do some fun nerd stuff or threatening to ban me from A.org for a weekend? I can't tell. Come on dude relax. I'm sorry my humor was off base for your decency standards. It was all in fun. Relax.
Steven
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Though in truth, this topic has gone off target
you mean with aros downloads? at least it turned to something constructive instead useless claims that will never be verified.
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Well the title IS truthful.
You can find out the amount of MorphOS copies sold.
Its just that this doesn't reveal how many active users there are.
And yes, this post has gone on too long since I was able to summarize that in two sentences.
But this is Amiga.org and there WILL be conflict.
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But, in that list not all people we are, for example me, I have MacMini with MorphOS 2.7 license, but I don't write in MorphOS forums.