Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: OlafS3 on March 06, 2011, 10:34:00 AM
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I read the discussions on this site and are really a little wondering. I am writing an article (f.e. for magazines) to create interest outside the typical scene because I think there is a lot of interesting developments right now (X1000, Aros and Aros68k, Kickstart Replacement, Natami, Minimig, FPGA Arcade... ). It is a good time to go outside. And there are a lot of areas where cooperation is useful, f.e. drivers for USB and PCI). Instead the people are fighting against each other (often personal). Would it not be a good idea to compete on features and work together where useful (f.e. to make it easy to develope software for ALL platforms) and have common standards? I always read that there has too much happened but we will not get additional users/developers if we do not work together to some degree... What do you think?
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People do work together, and when they do you get opensouce projects like AROS and MiniMig :)
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Actually i thought we were doing pretty OK. No one wants the x1000 to fail and the response to the MiniMig and Natami have been altogether positive. You never mentioned the excellent Morthos. The only thing we have really been fighting about is C=usa and i-contain neither of which are Amiga anyway. At least according to us.
I find it suspicious that for someone who clearly has knowledge and passion for all things Amiga only has one post?
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Gotta be honest, I don't think there is much chance of that on these kind of forums, even things like the NatAmi has it's haters because they think it should be made this way or that way instead...
I honestly don't see all the individual camps getting together for one common cause, as each seems to have their own very passionate and vocal followers whom I don't think could easily be swayed into collaborating with the other camp as each sides followers seem to think their way is the best way to go... :)
Guess we're all just gonna have to agree to differ on our opinions and keep supporting the ones we believe in... :)
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Very true!
Combined power/team work is always better than all these projects alone.
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Combined power/team work is always better than all these projects alone.
However you can overdo this mantra. I have seen complaints in the Linux world because some people wrote their own tool instead of contributing to a commonly used tool. But if you look at Emacs, KDE, Gnome, OpenOffice and GIMP you will realize that they are bloated and inefficient compared to the alternatives that where created by non teamworking individuals who had a different concept (larswm, amiwm, xfig, ...). I believe that it is best to have both: teamwork and competition. If this leads to Vi vs. Emacs flamewars - so it be!
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@ Ismart
+1
That's the way of the big bad world, competition not collaboration no matter what the product is... :)
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Hmmm....teamwork is fine with small teams, some very good things can be created.....and if it wasn't for competition we would have never had such an interesting 30 years of computing history! Sinclair vs Amstard, Commodore vs Atari, Amiga vs Win-PC's.......
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i have the idea of a standardization group (one or two persons of every important group). This group define the final standards, after a public discussion about features (not persons, companies...)
what do you think?
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i have the idea of a standardization group (one or two persons of every important group). This group define the final standards, after a public discussion about features (not persons, companies...)
what do you think?
You'd never even get them to agree on the standards as each would have different standards that they simply wouldn't budge on... :)
Anyway once you agree to a standard and most stick to it, someone else just comes along and decides those standards are too restricting and so they begin something new that doesn't fit the agreed standards, and the whole thing starts all over once again... :)
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i have the idea of a standardization group (one or two persons of every important group). This group define the final standards, after a public discussion about features (not persons, companies...)
what do you think?
It was tried in 2003 and it failed:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2801
http://web.archive.org/web/20040405022020/http://openamiga.tk/
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Wow Bloodline looks the same in his pic back then as he does today... methinks he's really Cliff Richard... :)
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of course there would ... but it must be accepted by the vast majority so it could be useful for developers of software or hardware...
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@ Ismart
+1
That's the way of the big bad world, competition not collaboration no matter what the product is... :)
And eventually your going down, one way or another.
The biggest will always beat you to it.
If you look at the car industry for example what is behind the VAG group, Nissan or GM and Chevrolet.
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Bah, active collaboration? Amigoid OS' are similar enough that a good program should be fairly easy to port across systems.
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Teamwork is great, but not at the expense of whatever it was you were doing in the first place. The different Amiga-like platform projects in development are different because people had honest disagreements about which way things should go, not because they just haven't thought of combining their efforts, and that should be respected. Besides, they can still benefit from each other - the open-source Kickstart that the AROS folks wanted to run AROS on their 68k Amigas, for example, is providing NatAmi with a bootstrap by which they can run 68k software without having to pay licensing fees. As long as these groups keep an attitude of mutual amiability, they can benefit from each other's work without giving up what they are.
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Bah, active collaboration? Amigoid OS' are similar enough that a good program should be fairly easy to port across systems.
Try to port an OS4 app that makes heavy use of OS4 only features to 3.x or MorphOS.
It's quicker to write it again from scratch.
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It was tried in 2003 and it failed:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2801
http://web.archive.org/web/20040405022020/http://openamiga.tk/
MorphOS got the best of breed of the accepted community standards (MUI, CGX, Poseidon etc) AROS cloned them and OS4 was left with the shyte that was left over from H&P and their own NIH stuff. ;)
/Dons flame-proof jacket!
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Who's this guy called Don ???
And why does he have a flame-proof jacket... ;)
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You'd never even get them to agree on the standards as each would have different standards that they simply wouldn't budge on... :)
Anyway once you agree to a standard and most stick to it, someone else just comes along and decides those standards are too restricting and so they begin something new that doesn't fit the agreed standards, and the whole thing starts all over once again... :)
Standardisation=bad for consumer. Look how crap buying an off the shelf computer has become now...Intel Mac or Wintel/AMDwin box. You can keep it. Thank goodness we have Sony + Nintendo still in the console market.
Greed from software houses led to no more choice like in the wonderful 80-90s. Each generation was a revolution as it should be.
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Wow Bloodline looks the same in his pic back then as he does today... methinks he's really Joan Rivers... :)
That's cruel!
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People do work together, and when they do you get opensouce projects like AROS and MiniMig :)
Problem for even open source is that it has to be a modern open source to survive. I think that is the biggest loadstone for the Amiga community, it's just reimplementation of an old school OS (which was cutting edge at the time). Until that loadstone is gone, any cooperation is going to be futile. I know, I just touched a third rail, but once the fog of battle clears and the view of the destruction that the community has gone under for the past 17 years, there is not much left worth fixing, it's time to rebuild. That means the old has to be torn down for the new.
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That's cruel!
Oi... you changed me words... where's me lawyer... :furious:
Although now you mention it, I can see the resemblance... :D
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Wow Bloodline looks the same in his pic back then as he does today... methinks he's really Cliff Richard... :)
Lol! The scary thing is that old photo is at least 13 years old!!! I have a few wrinkles and a few gray hairs now :)
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Problem for even open source is that it has to be a modern open source to survive. I think that is the biggest loadstone for the Amiga community, it's just reimplementation of an old school OS (which was cutting edge at the time). Until that loadstone is gone, any cooperation is going to be futile. I know, I just touched a third rail, but once the fog of battle clears and the view of the destruction that the community has gone under for the past 17 years, there is not much left worth fixing, it's time to rebuild. That means the old has to be torn down for the new.
Imagine the outcry if they said "it's time to tear down the Pyramids (or the local chippy)" some things are classic and timeless and are best left in the hands of the curators and those who truly appreciate them for what they are... :)
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Who's this guy called Don ???
And why does he have a flame-proof jacket... ;)
Because Belgians breath fire.
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Lol! The scary thing is that old photo is at least 13 years old!!! I have a few wrinkles and a few gray hairs now :)
I always thought it was the lead singer from ABC?!
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Standardisation=bad for consumer. Look how crap buying an off the shelf computer has become now...Intel Mac or Wintel/AMDwin box. You can keep it. Thank goodness we have Sony + Nintendo still in the console market.
Greed from software houses led to no more choice like in the wonderful 80-90s. Each generation was a revolution as it should be.
Hi,
Wow, you still buy off the shelf computers!!!
I build my own, that way I get to choose what I have in my computer, the only off the shelf computer I have in my house is for my youngest son and yes you are right it is a piece of crap.
As far as game consoles please take it to a sony or nintendo site. I wouldn't own one of those piece of sheet if you paid me. I have a WII only because it came with the car I purchased, I laugh at it every time I go in the living room.
PC Power User
smerf
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Imagine the outcry if they said "it's time to tear down the Pyramids (or the local chippy)" some things are classic and timeless and are best left in the hands of the curators and those who truly appreciate them for what they are... :)
Hi,
I agree with you on this Franko, the classic Amiga's should stay as they are, no one but Jay Miner could call the shots on this.
but
On the same token, the reason the pyramids still stand is because of the generation that built them, for todays generation, well do you think you could live in a pyramid. Not really, they had no electric, no heat, no air conditioning, no refrigerator, etc. etc.
Time moved on and so must we.
smerf
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Lol! The scary thing is that old photo is at least 13 years old!!! I have a few wrinkles and a few gray hairs now :)
(http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00713/SNF2124AA_666_713879a.jpg)
:P
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Hi,
@Bloodline,
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Lol! The scary thing is that old photo is at least 13 years old!!! I have a few wrinkles and a few gray hairs now
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
so, update your picture.
bet your bald like me, and that flowing hair is gone.
smerf
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Hi,
Wow, you still buy off the shelf computers!!!
I build my own, that way I get to choose what I have in my computer, the only off the shelf computer I have in my house is for my youngest son and yes you are right it is a piece of crap.
As far as game consoles please take it to a sony or nintendo site. I wouldn't own one of those piece of sheet if you paid me. I have a WII only because it came with the car I purchased, I laugh at it every time I go in the living room.
PC Power User
smerf
The console rivalry and benefit to users since the 80s hasn't changed, unlike the days of ST/AMIGA/ARCHIMEDES/PC/MAC/X68000. Hardware is all the same now which sucks.
Sure you can tell the man in the street to go and mail order a PPC/Coldfire setup but that has nothing to do with real world choice for non-geek purchasers ie 99.999999999% of the world. In the 80s/90s ordinary people buying a computer had real choices. Even AROS/LINUX users are using thesame X86/PCI-E motherboards as Windows users.
If you wanted to play 60FPS 1920x1080 games and watch HD movies in 2006/7 would have cost 5x as much asa PS3......only a lunatic solution then. Sure 4 years on it's only 300-500 more but don't compare powerful machines technically with that NintenTOY for babies and single mums ;)
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Problem for even open source is that it has to be a modern open source to survive. I think that is the biggest loadstone for the Amiga community, it's just reimplementation of an old school OS (which was cutting edge at the time). Until that loadstone is gone, any cooperation is going to be futile. I know, I just touched a third rail, but once the fog of battle clears and the view of the destruction that the community has gone under for the past 17 years, there is not much left worth fixing, it's time to rebuild. That means the old has to be torn down for the new.
People keep saying this, but if you're going to throw it all out, why even pretend it's the same thing? If your ideal system has nothing in common with the Amiga hardware and nothing in common with the Amiga software, why even call it an Amiga? Just accept that the Amiga doesn't suit your needs and build your own thing.
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The smaller and less objectively important a group is, the sharper and more entrenched the divisions.
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Hi,
@Bloodline,
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Lol! The scary thing is that old photo is at least 13 years old!!! I have a few wrinkles and a few gray hairs now
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
so, update your picture.
bet your bald like me, and that flowing hair is gone.
smerf
Nah! My avatar is only a couple of years old... I've more hair than ever... Errm, all ove actually :(
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Problem for even open source is that it has to be a modern open source to survive. ... That means the old has to be torn down for the new.
I don't think you can honestly say your new Amiga-like OS product is better than the old unless you can duplicate all the intrinsic look and feel functionality the users of the old product experienced and were familiar with, while adding new features and enhancements while finding minimal incompatibilities with their past experience. There have been multiple alternative OSes that have claimed to be "a better Amiga" by their devotees, but since they couldn't duplicate the same user experience we're here at Amiga.org talking about classics, emulations, AROS, MorphOS, and OS4.
There were lots of little nooks and crannies in the AmigaDOS 3.1 system software and user experience which were sorely lacking in AROS until recently, and a few that still need to be addressed. I don't think there is any intention to freeze things in AROS at the old API, its just a minimum standard by which to judge "improvements" by -- since there's so little chance that the original Amiga OS, MorphOS or OS4 codes would be open sourced for a reference point and compatibility layer in an open source Amiga-like OS.
I agree that "defining community standards" isn't going to really help anyone at this time. OS4 and MorphOS have already chosen their paths, and AROS has its own directions to go in.
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I guess it gets into that sticky conversation of "what is amiga"
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I dont buy into the whole, "It's too old/crippled" arguement that comes up from time to time. Look at how far Microsoft have gone by slowly but surely updating an old base. Same with Unix based systems. The alternative isnt very attractive either, whichis to build up a pretty generic OS based on industry standards, many of which are standards by little more than luck, advertising and marketting and are far from optimal, ergo the typically bloated mainstream solutions. To go down that road, although easier isnt very interesting for my tastes. Id rather some challenges on an interesting system than to lose the uniqueness. Additionally even using the generic route it'll still be an alternative system, facing many of the problems that alternative systems do regardless. The simple fact is alternative OSes are always going to face an uphill battle and be a little behind the ball wih some technologies should they chose to chase mass conformity. Doesnt however in my opinion mean they need to turn into a mishmash of generic parts.
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As for working together to a degree people already do. Where things are shareable they often are shared. There's been plenty of situations where aros/morphos/os4.x have benefitted from software for aros/morphos/os4.x, even direct invlovement by developers of one system helping with work to port said software to another system. It wouldnt be often that core components are shared between the OSes (apart from aros, due to its open source nature), but with slightly different paths, why should they ?
Personally I dont think the seperation between "camps" is as heavy as if often suggested.
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But if you look at Emacs, KDE, Gnome, OpenOffice and GIMP you will realize that they are bloated and inefficient compared to the alternatives that where created by non teamworking individuals who had a different concept (larswm, amiwm, xfig, ...)
Them's fightin' words... need to be careful around here!
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Imagine the outcry if they said "it's time to tear down the Pyramids (or the local chippy)" some things are classic and timeless and are best left in the hands of the curators and those who truly appreciate them for what they are... :)
I will point out that the pyramids is where you bury the dead. I'm not saying anything bad about 68K, it's a good medium that can be emulated and integrated into a next generation system. My problem is what being called next generation because they are reimplementation of 68K and not next generation.
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There were lots of little nooks and crannies in the AmigaDOS 3.1 system software and user experience which were sorely lacking in AROS until recently, and a few that still need to be addressed.
To take an example: There are *still* parts of the console.device and console handler that needs to be added to even match 1.1, never mind later versions of AmigaOS. When I last worked at the console code, a lot of my test cases where example code Commodore released on early Fish disks, written in 1985. A ton of it failed (it's better now, but not yet perfect). Many of them went unimplemented because they weren't used by most apps ported to AROS. But they need to be implemented to handle old AmigaOS apps. Most, anyway.
I don't think there is any intention to freeze things in AROS at the old API, its just a minimum standard by which to judge "improvements" by -- since there's so little chance that the original Amiga OS, MorphOS or OS4 codes would be open sourced for a reference point and compatibility layer in an open source Amiga-like OS.
You're already seeing new stuff, like the 3D support etc. being added beyond 3.1, as well as Zune etc. And to point out the console again since it's the part I'm involved in, my personal goal is at a minimum parity with KingCON, since "everyone" uses it - having just the features of AmigaOS 3.1 would still bring a user experience that leaves a lot to be desired for most Amiga users. Just committed the start of the menu bar the other night, now I just need to start hooking up the actions :) (actually, there's more "plumbing" to add first, which goes back to making console.device AmigaOS 1.x compatible...).
Where possible, AROS is also blocking out library offsets used for AmigaOS4 and MorphOS extensions in order to at least keeping the option of supporting them open.
I agree that "defining community standards" isn't going to really help anyone at this time. OS4 and MorphOS have already chosen their paths, and AROS has its own directions to go in.
Defining standards in this situation would pretty much be: Document the current shared behaviors and most important deviations. For example, what MUI controls and options are shared across all? What parts of AREXX works across all (now that Regina works on AROS)? What datatypes can be assumed to be available? Etc.
Creating a compatibility matrix like that would be a highly useful starting point if someone is looking for a project...
Another project that'd be highly useful, would be to start collecting automated unit tests targeting shared functionality, to find corner cases where they behave differently...
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I fully quote Vidarh in this :)
Saimon69
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I'm not saying anything bad about 68K, it's a good medium that can be emulated and integrated into a next generation system. My problem is what being called next generation because they are reimplementation of 68K and not next generation.
That's not wholly true; at least one project is a significant leap forward over the original 68k Amigas. Besides, what does "next generation" even mean in this context, and why? If something like NatAmi isn't a "next generation" Amiga project, what would it take to make it one?
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If you wanted to play 60FPS 1920x1080 games and watch HD movies in 2006/7 would have cost 5x as much asa PS3......only a lunatic solution then. Sure 4 years on it's only 300-500 more but don't compare powerful machines technically with that NintenTOY for babies and single mums ;)
Good one :)
But Amiga hardware isn't getting cheaper also, sure the low end A500 and 600's are cheap.
1200's/2000's is already a bit harder.
A3000's/4000's are getting to the point of costing near to big powerful pc's.
And I haven't even started on PPC cards.
PS3's and Nintendo's are for the masses, just like PC's and Mac's, but everything else is a hobby.
And this can get a quite expensive hobby if you go a little bit further.
Sure, I'd like to see a better OS than OS 4.1, but I'm not going to spend a boat load of money for new hardware and an OS that can't do modern things like we do today.
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That's not wholly true; at least one project is a significant leap forward over the original 68k Amigas. Besides, what does "next generation" even mean in this context, and why? If something like NatAmi isn't a "next generation" Amiga project, what would it take to make it one?
I was referring to 68K code, not the actual 68K machines. There maybe some advancement via NatAmi, but it's not a next generation, just improvements as best as there can be. To me, Next Generation (for hardware) is modern, if not bleeding edge, technology and it would be expected for the end user to fully use it to it's maximum hardware capabilities. To be several generations behind in technology but still ahead the Amiga 68K is not Next Generation but who has sunk in the least in the tar pits of irrelevancy.
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If something like NatAmi isn't a "next generation" Amiga project, what would it take to make it one?
A lot of bug-fixing, hardware descriptors, drivers, and tweak the VHDL of the chipset to make it possible to run as an ASIC rather than an FPGA. Beyond that, nothing much. (Note: It will take a lot to get up to the volume of customers that will make the NatAmi cost-effective, although DARPA has a project that may make small quantities of ASICs cheaper.)
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To me, Next Generation (for hardware) is modern, if not bleeding edge, technology and it would be expected for the end user to fully use it to it's maximum hardware capabilities.
I guess I still don't get this mindset. If it's modern computing power you want, that's easily had with any of the countless x86 PCs out there. Amiga-upgrade projects are (barring one of us suddenly winning the lottery) never going to match the raw horsepower of the PC clone market, as you yourself have pointed out before, and so people start suggesting that the Amiga should just become another PC clone. Why should we sacrifice everything that makes the Amiga the Amiga just so that we can claim it's modern? It'd be like sticking a Tucker emblem on a modern utility sedan and claiming it's a Tucker Torpedo.
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What is an Amiga is a little like asking which women are hot. There are some that we can pretty much all agree on, but as you get farther out, everybody starts getting their own ideas. Some like big tits, and can live with a few extra pounds elsewhere. Some want them thin, and don't care how flat she is. Some just look at the face, and others just look at the butt. That is the boat we are in with Amigas. We can all agree that the A500, A1000, A2000, A3000 are real Amigas, but after that we are not necessarily looking at the same parts when we want to add more units to the list.
I like to be pragmatic. Hot chicks are the ones that will sleep with me, and Amigas are systems that can run a reasonably large selection of the software released for the A500, A1000, A2000 and/or A3000. After that, the various traits define which is the best, not which is an Amiga.