Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: jorkany on February 22, 2011, 04:05:20 PM
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Somebody seems to think so:
http://whereisamiga.wordpress.com/
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You stumble on this or write it?
ZZZZzzzzz
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You stumble on this or write it?
ZZZZzzzzz
Stumbled on. I just use moobunny for whatever I want to say.
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Sounds about right, Hyperion obviously want to protect their investment... But frankly they don't understand the modern computer business. :(
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Stumbled on. I just use moobunny for whatever I want to say.
Stumbled on it on Commodore-amiga.org.
(there, I completed your sentence for you). Heh.
#6
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Hyperion has put out actual amiga product. Amiga inc seems to be somewhat short in this regard.
The author seems to conflate things a bit. Hyperions legal challenge to CUSA didn't have anything to do with AROS (and CUSA did their infamous "AROS sucks" post very quickly after their original announcement)
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Stumbled on it on Commodore-amiga.org.
(there, I completed your sentence for you). Heh.
Glad I'm not the only one who thought that article was suspiciously ass-kissing of CUSA. I'm no defender of Hyperion, but painting the company that employs Bigbenaussie as being the true friend of the Amiga community is pretty comical.
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Stumbled on it on Commodore-amiga.org.
(there, I completed your sentence for you). Heh.
#6
Ironically I saw it on awn first.
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=32927&forum=28&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#602145
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Why is there always this hostility towards companies releasing new Amiga software and hardware. Is it just because we are used to scams and empty promises? Or is it because of the different Amiga user 'camps' that all have their own opinion about the best way forward for Amiga? Its not that we can really afford crap like this, the market and user base is too small for that?
Sure, there is probably some truth in there but the way its written gives me the feeling the 'author' is a biased person that has had some negative personal experience with Hyperion. Whatever it is, instead of slagging off one of the last active Amiga companies we are much better off giving our support. IMHO thats the only way forward for Amiga, respect, a bit of loyalty, and some real community spirit.
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IMHO thats the only way forward for Amiga, respect, a bit of loyalty, and some real community spirit.
Declaring the competing projects illegal is a curious way to gather community spirit.
http://www.sintonen.fi/temp/hermans.txt
http://www.biclodon.com/misc/amigafarm/benhermans/
and
(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2413/arosillegal.png)
CUSA is receiving similar threats now. Sounds like a typical MO for Hyperion.
So sorry but I can't feel warn & fuzzy about Hyperion.
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Why is there always this hostility towards companies releasing new Amiga software and hardware. Is it just because we are used to scams and empty promises? Or is it because of the different Amiga user 'camps' that all have their own opinion about the best way forward for Amiga? Its not that we can really afford crap like this, the market and user base is too small for that?
Sure, there is probably some truth in there but the way its written gives me the feeling the 'author' is a biased person that has had some negative personal experience with Hyperion. Whatever it is, instead of slagging off one of the last active Amiga companies we are much better off giving our support. IMHO thats the only way forward for Amiga, respect, a bit of loyalty, and some real community spirit.
How on earth can you show respect to a company like CUSA when they and their mouthpieces show no respect to the Amiga Community whatsoever... :(
As for loyalty, where's Hyperions loyalty for us mugs who bought OS4.0, one update then you're abandoned... :(
Community Spirit, the only spirit left these days is at the bottom of an empty whisky bottle...;)
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Whatever it is, instead of slagging off one of the last active Amiga companies we are much better off giving our support. IMHO thats the only way forward for Amiga, respect, a bit of loyalty, and some real community spirit.
I still cannot fathom this "any company is better than no company" sentiment that a baffling number of Amigans seem to share. If even half the stuff in that blog is true, Hyperion's been trying to bully and threaten competing NG-Amiga OSes out of existence based on no evidence at all - I don't care if it killed the Amiga commercial market deader than it already is, that's not a company worth supporting.
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Declaring the competing projects illegal is a curious way to gather community spirit.
http://www.sintonen.fi/temp/hermans.txt
http://www.biclodon.com/misc/amigafarm/benhermans/
and
(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2413/arosillegal.png)
Sometimes what is said in public is not reflective of the private reality. Your post would indicate a somewhat negative spin on Hyperion and AHT relations, no?
Are you dead certain such a negative relationship exists or existed?
I'm well aware of what you are pointing to here, but are others going to understand you are referring to management and not to those hobbyists who make a choice to use a particular operating system? I would hate to see your thoughtful posts read along the lines of "guilt by association".
#6
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I dont hyperion is anything like amiga Inc.
Amiga Inc has fed lies to the community for years about great new products like ACK Systems Machines, Sponsership Deals, Evo Console, Amiga Anywhere etc etc. All they seem to have produced is a few crappy games for windows like snowman maker.
Hyperion has produced OS4 updates for modern and classic machines. Dont forget the great modern games that Hyperion ported such as quake when the amiga really needed games like that.
To me they seem worlds apart. Hyperion has brought software to the amiga community and Amiga Inc has not.
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Sometimes what is said in public is not reflective of the private reality. Your post would indicate a somewhat negative spin on Hyperion and AHT relations, no?
Are you dead certain such a negative relationship exists or existed?
It was posted in court documents so it is real Mr. Evert quote (his Sep 25 2005 reply to Bill McEwen of Amiga Inc). While it may suggest some strain in some relations (irrelevant) it does quite explicitly point out that Hyperion considers AROS illegal.
I'm well aware of what you are pointing to here, but are others going to understand you are referring to management and not to those hobbyists who make a choice to use a particular operating system?
If they fail to see that then there's little I can do to help them.
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How on earth can you show respect to a company like CUSA when they and their mouthpieces show no respect to the Amiga Community whatsoever... :(
Well, to be honest I wrote my comment with Hyperion in mind, not CUSA.. :) Since they havent done much so far, there isnt much to respect either. Doesnt mean they deserve all the crap that people keep saying, though.
Uh and as for Hyperion and lack of updates for OS4.. At least we *have* OS4. But I might have missed something, isnt there going to be a 4.1 release for classic anymore? :|
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(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2413/arosillegal.png)
I have been in contact with Evert after this about AROS. I can't provide details but I am not worried about legality of AROS.
CUSA is receiving similar threats now. Sounds like a typical MO for Hyperion.
The case is different as Amiga Inc. has agreed to not compete with AmigaOS 4 under the Amiga name and Hyperion considers the use of AROS together with a the Amiga name as competition.
greets,
Staf.
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I have been in contact with Evert after this about AROS. I can't provide details but I am not worried about legality of AROS.
AROS or MorphOS have nothing to fear legally. Hyperion's empty threats were called years ago already.
I have to agree though that such tactics indeed remind me of Amiga, Inc.
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Sorry to but in here but...
Has anybody seen me favourite black pen, you know the one with me initials on it in wee gold letters, I'm sure I left it round here somewhere... :(
If anyone spots it please let me know, cos writing a letter of complaint with a red crayon don't look too professional you know... ta very glad... :)
Just butting out again... :)
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I find it funny that a lot of people are surprised that the official AmigaOS developers (weather you like it or not) moaned and complied about the unofficial AmigaOS 'very inspired' releases, it is after all their main competition, it would have been nice if they had been a bit more friendly and tried to work together but I think partly because there is money involved and lawyers (what is it about the Amiga that attracts lawyer, they must like the legal mess, maybe its a nice challenge for them) rather than see it as evil competition scam braking coyright laws as I'm sure they could of worked something out and work together more, at the very least on the hardware side supporting the same hardware to bost sales (peg2 port was nice to see but would of been nicer a few year earlyier, but I guess amiga inc might of stop that)(ps I on about MorpthOs and AmigaOS here) threatening legal action is I think they are starting to realise is only going to annoy the community who like all the options and just want the best Amiga experiences they can have weather it MorpthOS, Aros, or maybe in some people eyes BeOS, I think Tever being in charge of Aeon was a wise call, because he said it before, he just like OS4 more but loves all the other efforts and supports them, just he support his main interest more by hopefully bring us the best ppc amiga you can buy and I really wish there was a way to to get MorpthOS and Aros on the machine so we could finally have a all in one Amiga to support but there are still people who live in the past and dont let bygone be bygone, and I'm on about OS4 and MorthOS team. Aros guys just seem to do their own thing and I think have keep out of the trolling and dirt a lot more than the rest of the community.
Like this very thread have proved again.
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Is Hyperion the new Amiga Inc.?
Isn't that obvious?
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I find it funny that a lot of people are surprised that the official AmigaOS developers (weather you like it or not) moaned and complied about the unofficial AmigaOS 'very inspired' releases, it is after all their main competition, it would have been nice if they had been a bit more friendly and tried to work together but I think partly because there is money involved and lawyers (what is it about the Amiga that attracts lawyer, they must like the legal mess, maybe its a nice challenge for them) rather than see it as evil competition scam braking coyright laws as I'm sure they could of worked something out and work together more, at the very least on the hardware side supporting the same hardware to boot sales (I on about MorpthOs and AmigaOS here) threatening legal action is I think they are starting to realise is only going to annoy the community who like all the options and just want the best Amiga experiences they can have weather it MorpthOS, Aros, or maybe in some people eyes BeOS, I think Tever being in charge of Aeon was a wise call, because he said it before, he just like OS4 more but loves all the other efforts and supports them, just he support his main interest more by hopefully bring us the best ppc amiga you can buy and I really wish there was a way to to get MorpthOS and Aros on the machine so we could finally have a all in one Amiga to support but there are still people who live in the past and dont let bygone be bygone, and I'm on about OS4 and MorthOS team.
No offense...but this just might be the longest one-sentence non sequitur ever!
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I got a E in GCSE English :banana: (thank god for spell checker on the computer other wise you would have a lot more to laugh at.)
Plan to take a english course up very soon to improve, so no offense taken, as I know I'm bad. :(
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hopefully bring us the best ppc amiga you can buy and I really wish there was a way to to get MorpthOS and Aros on the machine so we could finally have a all in one Amiga to support
That's not going to happen. In order for someone to write support for some particular HW it needs to be available and reasonably priced. X1000 just doesn't qualify.
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I find it funny that a lot of people are surprised that the official AmigaOS developers (weather you like it or not) moaned and complied about the unofficial AmigaOS 'very inspired' releases, it is after all their main competition
Thing is, though, it being understandable from a business standpoint doesn't make it okay. Their claims were groundless and everybody knew it, yet they tried to intimidate legitimate competitors into backing down with the threat of legal action. That's some SCO shit right there. A good business responds to competition with counter-competition, not by trying to bully their competitors out of the market.
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I got a E in GCSE English :banana: (thank god for spell checker on the computer other wise you would have a lot more to laugh at.)
Plan to take a english course up very soon to improve, so no offense taken, as I know I'm bad. :(
Quick and dirty guide to making things more readable: Where you would take a breath during a sentence, add a comma. When covering something related to the previous sentence use a full stop.
When moving to a new topic start it off as a fresh paragraph.
(Yes, I too felt the cries of many pedants out there crying out in agony, but fuck it.)
So, your original post might look something like this:
I find it funny that a lot of people are surprised that the official AmigaOS developers (weather you like it or not) moaned and complained about the unofficial AmigaOS 'very inspired' releases, it is after all their main competition.
It would have been nice if they had been a bit more friendly and tried to work together, but I think partly because there is money involved and lawyers (what is it about the Amiga that attracts lawyer, they must like the legal mess, maybe its a nice challenge for them) rather than see it as evil competition scam braking copyright laws as I'm sure they could of worked something out and work together.
At the very least on the hardware side supporting the same hardware to boost sales (I on about MorpthOs and AmigaOS here) threatening legal action is I think they are starting to realise is only going to annoy the community who like all the options and just want the best Amiga experiences they can have weather it MorpthOS, Aros, or maybe in some people eyes BeOS, I think Trever being in charge of Aeon was a wise call, because he said it before, he just like OS4 more but loves all the other efforts and supports them, just he support his main interest more by hopefully bring us the best ppc amiga you can buy.
I really wish there was a way to to get MorpthOS and Aros on the machine so we could finally have a all in one Amiga to support but there are still people who live in the past and dont let bygone be bygone, and I'm on about OS4 and MorthOS team.
Yes, I also did some other very minor alterations there too for clarities sake.
Honestly mate, the best way to get a better working understanding of language is to read books, as many as you can. It'll help expand your vocabulary not to mention your imagination. If you're a bit stuck for books or, like me skint, then I would suggest the Gutenburg project (http://gutenberg.net/) as it has tens of thousands of free (legally so) books.
Happy reading and good luck with your course when you do it!
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Hyperion has put out actual amiga product. Amiga inc seems to be somewhat short in this regard.
Almost forgot: screw mac, amiga is the way (http://appleotaku.com/amiga-ceo-says-the-new-amigaos-is-better-than-os-x/)
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Declaring the competing projects illegal is a curious way to gather community spirit.
http://www.sintonen.fi/temp/hermans.txt
http://www.biclodon.com/misc/amigafarm/benhermans/
and
(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2413/arosillegal.png)
CUSA is receiving similar threats now. Sounds like a typical MO for Hyperion.
So sorry but I can't feel warn & fuzzy about Hyperion.
gee am agreeing with you l got say pretty dispointing what am reading of late
just when seriously thinking buying a sam 460 too
l guess l take my chances with the shark inclosure rather than lawers offfice
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It was posted in court documents so it is real Mr. Evert quote (his Sep 25 2005 reply to Bill McEwen of Amiga Inc). While it may suggest some strain in some relations (irrelevant) it does quite explicitly point out that Hyperion considers AROS illegal.
If they fail to see that then there's little I can do to help them.
gee twice in one day next be sending you xmas card
yes well before the legal action amiga os 4 chould been techincally untill tested
been not fully legal so seems bit rich hyperion saying aros is illegal
and its the spirt of the thing apart from lawers all the care about is money and
complicating things to make more money.
if you have decent people coding for right reasons surley they can work toghter for same
goal moving the amiga platform forward
just like ford and gm if ford makes cool model it improve the breed and make people
intrested in buying cars helps everone, l mean people talk amiga being hobby computer
which is true but yeah , all computers are hobby for me becuase l dont use them
for work or make money from them anyway
so am sure there good people in all groups working on amiga projects just love to
see some common sence and less fighting
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I'm beyond caring now.
I am only interested in AROS maturing to completion and how expensive Natami will be.
Until someone uses a couple of brain cells and builds a cheap IBM Xenon CPU based motherboard for mass market then here's nothing to see as far as MOS/OS4 new hardware goes. Xenon or $100 600 MIPS Coldfire native port of those two OS options is the only future for Amiga compatibles. PPC price/performance is a joke.......as is CUSA LINUX + UAE claptrap frankly :roflmao:
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I posted the following response;
"If you bother to read the settlement agreement between Hyperion and the Amiga parties you will see the sale of AROS under the Amiga name would be prohibited by that agreement.
Read page 3 part b.
https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0BxlY9g_OfLqDZTQyNGFkYzEtZDI5Zi00YzcxLThhODYtODcyZTg0M2I4MzQ1&hl=en
Where was Commodore USA threatened. Here is what was said by HyperionMP, who as far as I know is Ben Hermans.
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=32323&forum=16&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#577704
As you can see, no direct threat was made towards Commodore USA.
If the sale of Amiga branded computers running AROS, by Commodore USA was in breach of the settlement agreement then surely Hyperion’s complaint would be with the Amiga Parties not Commodore USA.
There is no evidence that Hyperion Entertainment ever threatened Commodore USA with legal action.
You also seem to forget the criticism levelled at the Amiga community and AROS by Commodore USA. I can pull threads that substantiate this if you really want.
Commodore USA have also openly criticised two proponents of AROS, Steve Jones and Pacal Papara.
Steve Jones sells a computer system called iMica that ships with AROS installed, and Pacal Papara sells the AresONE which also ships with AROS. Funnily enough Hyperion Entertainment have made no legal objection to these products or criticised individuals behind them.
Commodore USA also threatened Thom Holwerda of OS News, over an news item/opinion piece he posted on the site. The threat was was later retracted.
http://www.osnews.com/story/23993/Commodore_USA_s_CEO_Retracts_Legal_Threat_Apologises
Interestingly the threat against Thom even states that Hyperion hadn’t take legal action.
Commodore USA and it’s fanbois are trying to revise history as it is being made."
It'll be interesting to see if it makes it's way past moderation.
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I have to agree though that such tactics indeed remind me of Amiga, Inc.
You don't agree with me on that. I find there is a miles difference between A.Inc. and Hyperion.
greets,
Staf.
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No one beats the AI humor machine
"OS5 is better than OSX".
"On schedule and rocken"
"AmigaDE on 100's of millions of devices"
:)
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I find there is a miles difference between A.Inc. and Hyperion.
To be honest I have to say Hyperion is doing bad job there. After ten years of development Hyperion still havent deliveded any finished product. Their OS is constantly in beta and their versioning is complete mess. They have got different versions of 4.1 with various patch levels which change from platform to platform. There is no any sign of professionalism and all they got is wannabe Belgian lawyer trashing Amiga community including AROS.
While Amiga Inc was bad making business they had some professionalism in their software development.
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Eh for me only the A500 ist the original Amiga and nothing beyond - yup forgot the A1000 was 1st in place - ok then I am out because life makes no sense...
"sarkasm off"
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No one beats the AI humor machine
"OS5 is better than OSX".
"On schedule and rocken"
"AmigaDE on 100's of millions of devices"
:)
hehe yes and that stadium naming thing what in hadies whould
make a compnay in amiga inc postion says these things
makes you wonder how they thought
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No one beats the AI humor machine
"OS5 is better than OSX".
"On schedule and rocken"
"AmigaDE on 100's of millions of devices"
:)
"A solution to provide cheap PPC systems is imminent but I can't comment further." :-)
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To be honest I have to say Hyperion is doing bad job there. After ten years of development Hyperion still havent deliveded any finished product. Their OS is constantly in beta and their versioning is complete mess. They have got different versions of 4.1 with various patch levels which change from platform to platform. There is no any sign of professionalism and all they got is wannabe Belgian lawyer trashing Amiga community including AROS.
While Amiga Inc was bad making business they had some professionalism in their software development.
Yes but to be fair they have never said there company has had massive base of
employees , seems to me and not having any idea they had handfull full time staff
and alot of helpers. but they have delivered a working os .
and for amount people dont there best. look how many people work on mac and windows
and they still have patchs and updates galore.
and even some real crap releases windows me vista etc
I just think people getting bit frustrated with lack information from them
Athough tended to keep things till ready to release them unlike amiga inc talked everthing up
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Yes but to be fair they have never said there company has had massive base of
employees , seems to me and not having any idea they had handfull full time staff
and alot of helpers. but they have delivered a working os .
They have got more developers and beta testers Commodore Amiga ever had. Yet they are still struggling to deliver an OS without beta status slapped on it.
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Thing is, though, it being understandable from a business standpoint doesn't make it okay. Their claims were groundless and everybody knew it, yet they tried to intimidate legitimate competitors into backing down with the threat of legal action. That's some SCO shit right there. A good business responds to competition with counter-competition, not by trying to bully their competitors out of the market.
It worked for Microsoft, and look where it got them, so it is no wonder that others try to use those tactics to defeat their competition, instead of just making a better product at a competitive price.
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They have got more developers and beta testers Commodore Amiga ever had. Yet they are still struggling to deliver an OS without beta status slapped on it.
Im going to go ahead and ask for some citations to back that up if you would please.
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Im going to go ahead and ask for some citations to back that up if you would please.
I wouldnt like to trash competing product but when I read TonyW's explanation of their release cycle (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=33224&forum=14&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0#602017) I could only think they are screwed. With this kind of model they never get properly working release out.
Judging by Amigans.net comment it already seems their 4.1 for SAM460 is different patch level than 4.1 for SAM440. On coming 4.1 release for PowerUp appears to have different patch level than others. You can not work with a release model like that. It is not only laborous but bug reports are completely useless if every platform have different version of components.
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Actually I meant on the number of developers involved.
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I wouldnt like to trash competing product but when I read TonyW's explanation of their release cycle (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=33224&forum=14&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0#602017) I could only think they are screwed. With this kind of model they never get properly working release out.
Judging by Amigans.net comment it already seems their 4.1 for SAM460 is different patch level than 4.1 for SAM440. On coming 4.1 release for PowerUp appears to have different patch level than others. You can not work with a release model like that.
:roflmao:
Amateurs indeed!! :shock:
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Actually I meant on the number of developers involved.
Oh.
"OTOH, it should be clear that after working for over 15 months with a team of around 30 developers, we already have a nice wishlist for OS 4.1."
ANN comment (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1045694322&category=news&number=27#comment) in 2003.
I could not find reference for number of Amiga developers at Commodore but Workbench about window should be good source: http://www.gregdonner.org/workbench/wb_31.html
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Wow, I'm really glad I don't have to depend on any the entities mentioned in this thread for my hardware or software.
It really does seem like anything new carrying the Amiga name is cursed.
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Wow, I'm really glad I don't have to depend on any the entities mentioned in this thread for my hardware or software.
It really does seem like anything new carrying the Amiga name is cursed.
well ACube has been a blessing as their hardware is top quality (unlike the first A1's) and their support is amazing:)
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well ACube has been a blessing as their hardware is top quality (unlike the first A1's) and their support is amazing:)
While I am ignorant to their hardware they have always acted professionally. No bullshit, no vague promises, just the hardware and that is it.
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Wow the slandering of Hyperion by so called self professed "know it alls" is astonishing.
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It was posted in court documents so it is real Mr. Evert quote (his Sep 25 2005 reply to Bill McEwen of Amiga Inc). While it may suggest some strain in some relations (irrelevant) it does quite explicitly point out that Hyperion considers AROS illegal.
I don't think they do, but they want to make it appear it is... But you're right anyway: nice way to gather some spirit stuff :)
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I have been in contact with Evert after this about AROS. I can't provide details but I am not worried about legality of AROS.
The case is different as Amiga Inc. has agreed to not compete with AmigaOS 4 under the Amiga name and Hyperion considers the use of AROS together with a the Amiga name as competition.
/end thread, except for the stirrers.
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I wouldnt like to trash competing product but when I read TonyW's explanation of their release cycle (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=33224&forum=14&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0#602017) I could only think they are screwed. With this kind of model they never get properly working release out.
Judging by Amigans.net comment it already seems their 4.1 for SAM460 is different patch level than 4.1 for SAM440. On coming 4.1 release for PowerUp appears to have different patch level than others. You can not work with a release model like that. It is not only laborous but bug reports are completely useless if every platform have different version of components.
Yeah, it sounds like they haven't heard of branching for release from that message. Although more likely the message is dumbed down.
But Apple release new computers with custom patched versions of the current OS on them. It's just that they provide smaller updates every few months, and at the next update it's all merged in. Drivers, mainly, are the difference I guess.
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Oh.
"OTOH, it should be clear that after working for over 15 months with a team of around 30 developers, we already have a nice wishlist for OS 4.1."
ANN comment (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1045694322&category=news&number=27#comment) in 2003.
I could not find reference for number of Amiga developers at Commodore but Workbench about window should be good source: http://www.gregdonner.org/workbench/wb_31.html
I think there's a massive difference between full time directly employed developers, and how AmigaOS has been developed in the past ten years. 30 developers could mean 2 full time developers, a few people doing their own projects that happen to also be in the OS, some people doing a few weekends on small components, etc.
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I don't think they do, but they want to make it appear it is... But you're right anyway: nice way to gather some spirit stuff :)
No, I think it is some trolling stirrers that like to bring up things from 2005 and say that they're how Hyperion currently considers something.
The fact is that Aros is being sold on the iMica and the AresOne, and nothing has been said about the legality there. Then again, they're not called the "Commodore Amiga with Workbench 5.0" are they?
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Wow the slandering of Hyperion by so called self professed "know it alls" is astonishing.
This coming from someone who doesn't even have an avatar?
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This coming from someone who doesn't even have an avatar?
What does that have to do with anything? Stupid ad-hominen attack.
Mods, let's close this thread, it serves no purpose apart from some people dredging up vague things from history (and claiming them as absolute proof of whatever their viewpoint is) and effectively making stuff up.
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What does that have to do with anything? Stupid ad-hominen attack.
Mods, let's close this thread, it serves no purpose apart from some people dredging up vague things from history (and claiming them as absolute proof of whatever their viewpoint is) and effectively making stuff up.
He is a beginner on A.org and calling established users on here as "know it alls" was rude and arrogant therefore deserved an insult in return.
"Stupid ad-hominen attack" - Huh?
Why close the thread? People are entitled to their opinion and none of it is hostile. Maybe we should close this thread because not everyone agrees with you?
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He is a beginner on A.org and calling established users on here as "know it alls" was rude and arrogant therefore deserved an insult in return.
"Stupid ad-hominen attack" - Huh?
Why close the thread? People are entitled to their opinion and none of it is hostile. Maybe we should close this thread because not everyone agrees with you?
You attacked the person (for not having an avatar), not the argument.
How long does someone have to be a member on this site before they can post their opinion then? Let's see - he joined ONE MONTH after you... seems quite a fine distinction to make - in my opinion.
I'm saying that some opinions in this thread are actually getting close to slander, and it is also an opportunity for the same old people to diss Hyperion. I don't need to name names.
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You attacked the person (for not having an avatar), not the argument.
How long does someone have to be a member on this site before they can post their opinion then? Let's see - he joined ONE MONTH after you... seems quite a fine distinction to make - in my opinion.
I'm saying that some opinions in this thread are actually getting close to slander, and it is also an opportunity for the same old people to diss Hyperion. I don't need to name names.
I don't care about avatars but the point i was trying to make was a new member arrogantly calling members 'self confessed know it alls' whos voices are influential on a.org probably isn't a good idea for future relations. Remember first impressions last. I don't think older members have the right to bully new members but i believe some members opinions count for more than others (except for Karlos) and new members should know their place.
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I don't care about avatars but the point i was trying to make was a new member arrogantly calling members 'self confessed know it alls' whos voices are influential on a.org probably isn't a good idea for future relations. Remember first impressions last. I don't think older members have the right to bully new members but i believe some members opinions count for more than others (except for Karlos) and new members should know their place.
Your point is valid even if your initial post wasn't that hot. As for Hattig, well that figures. As for slanderous comments in this thread, don't think so. Hyperion has been a blight from the get go and deserve everything they get.
If something truly is slanderous, I'm sure Hermans would be only too pleased at seeing another pay cheque this decade via litigation over it.
As far as developer numbers go, I wouldn't trust any numbers given out unless they came with specifics as to the sorts of hours put in, certainly over the years there have been a number public resignations over issues such as pay.
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I think there's a massive difference between full time directly employed developers, and how AmigaOS has been developed in the past ten years. 30 developers could mean 2 full time developers, a few people doing their own projects that happen to also be in the OS, some people doing a few weekends on small components, etc.
We developers have better tools, better computers and better knowledge than those Commodore developers in 1994. In theory it should be possible write new complex application faster using OS 4.1 API than with 3.1 API. While in practise compiling large project even on oldest A1-SE should be faster than on any development machine Commodore developers had an access to. And after all we are talking about developers Hyperion has presented as contractors, not contributors.
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This coming from someone who doesn't even have an avatar?
oh ok I'll bite...... So what does having no avatar have anything to do with the price of fish?
I guess that makes as much sense as your comment.....:laughing:
So anyway now that we got off on the wrong foot let me just say my point and case is that I once rose what I thought to be a balanced argument that painted the untouchable it seems AROS in a bad light and was labelled a TROLL that's okay I am thick skinned no harm done, yet a thread seems to be dedicated to the bashing of Hyperion with the participation of a few long standing members I think it interesting, and people make statements as though it's fact yet really it is vague speculation at best, not all of it but a good proportion.
Well I said my peace I bid thee good night.
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Mods - please close this thread due to it being really really BORING!
:D
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No, I think it is some trolling stirrers that like to bring up things from 2005 and say that they're how Hyperion currently considers something.
If you've got some facts about how Hyperion "currently considers something", spill it. Otherwise you're speculating just like anyone else. More so in fact.
The fact is that Aros is being sold on the iMica and the AresOne, and nothing has been said about the legality there.
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=29498
Oops! But that was said more than a year ago so according to you it's not how Hyperion "currently considers something".
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I refer you all to this post... ;)
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=617460&postcount=43
Bunch fakers the lot of ya... :D
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Your point is valid even if your initial post wasn't that hot. As for Hattig, well that figures. As for slanderous comments in this thread, don't think so. Hyperion has been a blight from the get go and deserve everything they get. .
"that figures"? Pray continue. Please. I am interested to hear what you have to say.
Hyperion have been a blight on those that want AmigaOS dead by keeping it alive. For many others they have managed to create and update a PowerPC version of the operating system for them to use. Some might claim it takes them a long time to do updates, and that the core OS is still steeped in 80's architectural fail, but at least they've done something.
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By studying forum posts from Frieden brothers I think it is quite evident that working at Hyperion is no dream job. Seems more like prison than doing what you love in working with Workbench source code.
Just think about it, working on the next generation of AmigaOS should be a dream job, something that makes you proud, makes you shine and something you want share with the community in a positive manner.
Something tells me reality is way off from that vision. Maybe reality hit home? Who will purchase a 2000 euro hobby system?
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If you've got some facts about how Hyperion "currently considers something", spill it. Otherwise you're speculating just like anyone else. More so in fact.
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=29498
Oops! But that was said more than a year ago so according to you it's not how Hyperion "currently considers something".
2005.
And previously cleared up in this very thread. Hence my previous comment.
Sheesh.
Right, Hyperion - we know you read this site - what's your viewpoint on AROS today?
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"that figures"? Pray continue. Please. I am interested to hear what you have to say.
I truly doubt that, but hey maybe there is a first time for everything.
Hyperion have been a blight on those that want AmigaOS dead by keeping it alive.
You have a truly odd definition of alive. Take a peak at what the Amiga community had around in terms of hardware and software developers in 2000 and compare it to now. Go on. Get back to us only when you've made that comparison.
Some might claim it takes them a long time to do updates, and that the core OS is still steeped in 80's architectural fail,
It's actually taken them longer to develop OS4 so far than it it did to go from 2.04-3.0-3.1 as well as the total amount of time it took H&P to develop 3.5 and 3.9, give it a year or two more and chances are it'll have taken longer than all of them combined if it hasn't already.
Which if you read the court docs you'd find much of the work converting the 68k assembler and other even more obscure language dependencies such as bcpl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCPL)to straight C code had already been done with the latter two.
Even if Hyperion had to start again from scratch with just basic 3.1 source, consider the amount of time H&P had and what they did, and how long it's taken Hyperion to essentially perform the same trick. And before you point to OS4 being primarily aimed at something other than classic hardware, consider it took the morphOS crowd about the same time to get their first releases out of the door in the same sort of time frame as H&P as well.
but at least they've done something.
Yeah, buy up valuable software such as Opus Magellen so as to stop others from gaining (read: MorphOS) thus shitting on the very people they are supposed to be servicing: The community. That's just one example, others are available on this very thread.
But to address this more thoroughly: "At least they've done something" is a complete nonsense. They have been a truly divisive factor within the community since they got the contract to do OS4 and their track record both toward partners and competitors stands as a stark testament to that fact.
--edit--
This "at least they've done something argument reminds me of those who harp on about the evils of medicine on the basis of them not being natural.
You know what's natural? Ebola.
"Natural", just like "something" doesn't necessarily mean "good for you".
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I thought Andreas Loong (Guru Meditation) bought the rights to Magellan, not Hyperion?
As to the rest of this thread... well... everyone is entitled to their opinion I guess, but I think Hyperion are doing a good job, development wise, its just a shame we're tied to PPC.
Oh, and as for 4.1 being substantially different on different hardware, I don't think thats the case. The 4.1 release going on to Classic is 4.1 Update 2, with some updated modules specifically required to make it work on Classic, but otherwise the idea is to release it at 4.1u2 level as close as possible.
The intention then is to keep future releases of 4.x as closely in sync as possible, AFAIK.
Note: Although I am on the OS4.x dev team, i'm not speaking officially for Hyperion in this post, and I'm not personally responsible for the OS4 release process or policies related to it.
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I thought Andreas Loong (Guru Meditation) bought the rights to Magellan, not Hyperion?
If I'm wrong on that I'll happily stand corrected on the matter.
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If I'm wrong on that I'll happily stand corrected on the matter.
You're not wrong. Before Andreas bought a three-year license to do development on DOpus (that license expired in 2007) Hyperion had contracted to buy the license. However, Hyperion never paid.
http://system-log.com/?p=1363
"The answer from Dr.Greg Perry :
We made a number of attempts to work with developers continuing with Amiga development to further develop Directory Opus for the Amiga line. Initially we signed a contract with Hyperion for licensing and development but they proved to be, well to be blunt, dishonest and untrustworthy, not what one expected in the Amiga world:). Even after repeated requests and discussions over six months after they signed the contract they refused to honour the deal and make payments for the licence as agreed. While I have no direct evidence but considering the fact that they widely promoted the deal and their future development plans, it has been suggested to us by a few that they were never serious about development and their behaviour was a stalling tactic to boost their profile and keep the product out of the hands of their competitors. This dragged on for a long time until we decided to cancel the contract out of frustration at their conduct."
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You're not wrong. Before Andreas bought a three-year license to do development on DOpus (that license expired in 2007) Hyperion had contracted to buy the license. However, Hyperion never paid.
http://system-log.com/?p=1363
"The answer from Dr.Greg Perry :
We made a number of attempts to work with developers continuing with Amiga development to further develop Directory Opus for the Amiga line. Initially we signed a contract with Hyperion for licensing and development but they proved to be, well to be blunt, dishonest and untrustworthy, not what one expected in the Amiga world:). Even after repeated requests and discussions over six months after they signed the contract they refused to honour the deal and make payments for the licence as agreed. While I have no direct evidence but considering the fact that they widely promoted the deal and their future development plans, it has been suggested to us by a few that they were never serious about development and their behaviour was a stalling tactic to boost their profile and keep the product out of the hands of their competitors. This dragged on for a long time until we decided to cancel the contract out of frustration at their conduct."
Ouch. Also thanks for the confirmation :)
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...MorphOS...
Ah, here we come to the real reason some people are bitching about Hyperion.
Even though in my mind MorphOS did it right by shuffling off classic behaviour into a compatibility box so the architecture wasn't held back, and moved a lot quicker in many ways...
Personally I'd hate to be an Amiga developer - three platforms, a few users, and a lot of ungratefulness. And too much incompetency. Bill Buck (despite his irascible personality) clearly had the right idea, and his companies are releasing hardware still - ARM now - at cheap prices.
AmigaOS should have been aiming for ARM for a few years now. Too late now.
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Ah, here we come to the real reason some people are bitching about Hyperion.
You keep telling yourself that sunbeam.
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Ah, here we come to the real reason some people are bitching about Hyperion.
In my case that's not true, I don't like or trust Hyperion for the simple fact that after buying OS4.0 they left OS4.0 users in the lurch after just one update and now they want folk like me to buy OS4.1 or OS4.2... fat chance... :)
DOpus has nothing to do with it as I don't use it but jorkanys post just goes to prove they are just another company who can't be trusted when it comes to the Amiga...
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You keep telling yourself that sunbeam.
Whatever. So what are your points that you're alluding to? Or just winding people up for a laugh?
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Whatever. So what are your points that you're alluding to? Or just winding people up for a laugh?
I've already given you a few of them and even provided a specific example which Jorkany was kind enough to provide citation for.
Your response to that was to ignore everything said and turn to quote mining.
Like I said in regard to your response to Kesa: Typical.
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Ah, here we come to the real reason some people are bitching about Hyperion.
Even if that were true for everybody (it's certainly not for me, as I have no interest in MorphOS or PPC in general,) how is that relevant? Whether or not leander or anybody else has ulterior motives or slightly more personal grudges, that doesn't make any of Hyperion's actions discussed in this thread at all okay. Threatening legal action against competitors on obviously groundless claims and constantly bad-mouthing them on the same baseless allegations, toying with a third-party developer to stall out the competition, etc. are reprehensible regardless of whether the people pointing them out are doing so out of a personal vendetta, and not all of us here are willing to smile and nod and pretend otherwise just because they're one of the few remaining Amiga companies.
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Even if that were true for everybody (it's certainly not for me, as I have no interest in MorphOS or PPC in general,) how is that relevant? Whether or not leander or anybody else has ulterior motives or slightly more personal grudges, that doesn't make any of Hyperion's actions discussed in this thread at all okay. Threatening legal action against competitors on obviously groundless claims and constantly bad-mouthing them on the same baseless allegations, toying with a third-party developer to stall out the competition, etc. are reprehensible regardless of whether the people pointing them out are doing so out of a personal vendetta, and not all of us here are willing to smile and nod and pretend otherwise just because they're one of the few remaining Amiga companies.
If Hyperion was serious, they'd be making more threatening posts related to MorphOS as it is much more closely related to their product than AROS.
And as AROS is a reverse engineered work alike product, Hyperion's comments in regard to the legality of AROS are a without merit.
While these posts have been almost uniformly negative toward Hyperion, they fail to make one point.
Hyperion promised a product and delivered on that promise. Their hardware partner (Acube) delivers what they announce.
Yes, they've been litigious, but they have advanced AmigaOS to a new level. I don't use it, but AOS4 is a fairly impressive product.
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oh ok I'll bite...... So what does having no avatar have anything to do with the price of fish?
I guess that makes as much sense as your comment.....:laughing:
errmm... i'm not really sure. OK i admit i probably could have come up with a better retort. I will try harder in the future :)
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If Hyperion was serious, they'd be making more threatening posts related to MorphOS as it is much more closely related to their product than AROS.
And as AROS is a reverse engineered work alike product, Hyperion's comments in regard to the legality of AROS are a without merit.
While these posts have been almost uniformly negative toward Hyperion, they fail to make one point.
Hyperion promised a product and delivered on that promise. Their hardware partner (Acube) delivers what they announce.
Yes, they've been litigious, but they have advanced AmigaOS to a new level. I don't use it, but AOS4 is a fairly impressive product.
So, what, that makes it okay? Are we to believe that their legal threats and accusations of code theft were all in good fun, then? Because they've "advanced AmigaOS to a new level," we're just supposed to smile and chuckle and go "aww, that's our Hyperion! What won't those rascals get up to?" It might make them a business with a better product track record than, say, CUSA, but it doesn't even remotely excuse their behavior.
This is another fine example of the "we'll put up with anything as long as we don't have to see the Amiga name die off entirely" mentality shared by an alarming number of people in this community. Is having a commercial maintainer for AOS4 so precious as to be a "get out of misbehavior free" card? Really?
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Yes, they've been litigious
Could anybody make a list of a the litigations in Amiga history and count how many each of the companies have started. I think you would be amazed.
The only thing I see is some quote from Ben Hermans in a heated discussion with BB & co. and a declaration during a trial. Don't know if people here read groklaw but during declaratory phase (if that is the right name) you are forced to declare all things that you possibly want to bring forward during the procedure. You are not allowed to bring new things on the table during the rest of the trial. So common practice is to put everything on paper in some conditional way (probably ilegal) at the start even if still need to investigate further if it really is the case.
greets,
Staf.
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In my case that's not true, I don't like or trust Hyperion for the simple fact that after buying OS4.0 they left OS4.0 users in the lurch after just one update and now they want folk like me to buy OS4.1 or OS4.2... fat chance... :)
At least there was one update I guess. It's taken so long I actually don't remember the timeframe for OS4 releases!
Um, After 30 months of development, April 2004 saw the OS4 developer release. 32 months later in December 2006, OS 4.0 final arrived (a ridiculous long time from when Hyperion started the port from the 3.1 sources - 5 years!), then September 2008 for 4.1. Nearly two years if you go from final version to final version - comparable to a Mac OS X release cycle - moreso if you count the 'developer edition' as being '4.0 final but we can't call it that because of legal wranglings'.
How I see it is that Hyperion took a very long time to get on track with OS4 development. Certainly it isn't a money spinner for them - how many people bought it in the end - a thousand? Maybe two thousand! Two releases in ten years can't have been bringing in the dough, and I remember that they said they had to take on other paying contracts when they could to make ends meet, delaying the OS development. I presume that 4.2 will be coming out later this year - three years after the previous version which is a perfectly adequate time frame for a paid OS update - so they might make another fifty grand or so from sales. Not a lot is it? Certainly not for the stress that it has brought into their lives.
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Threatening legal action against competitors on obviously groundless claims
Is this the Commodore USA thing? I think we already worked out that was because they were going to use the Amiga name with AROS, and Amiga Inc. couldn't license the Amiga name to Commodore USA for that particular use because of the terms of the license with Hyperion. Or the 2005 quote about Aros, which someone else in this thread earlier said wasn't something they were worrying about any longer, and as common sense dictates isn't an issue because they haven't been going after AROS itself, nor the iMica or Ares One - not that we know of anyway.
Did Hyperion ever state anywhere that they were going after Commodore USA? Or that they were just going to take some action about the situation?
The situation with some of the non-payment for licenses is a different thing altogether, that isn't good behaviour if it is true. Then again private business contracts often pan out this way - still not saying it's good please note - but the details stay private instead of getting aired in public.
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32 months later in December 2006, OS 4.0 final arrived.
Actually there was a "july update" from 2007, which incorporated with the December 2006 release constituted the complete "final". (for 4.0)
source (http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3854)
#6
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Could anybody make a list of a the litigations in Amiga history and count how many each of the companies have started. I think you would be amazed.
Indeed. Many filings and judgments are not publically known either. It's abominable.
#6
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Actually there was a "july update" from 2007, which incorporated with the December 2006 release constituted the complete "final". (for 4.0)
source (http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3854)
#6
Cheers. I considered that, but it appeared the final final release was December - which makes it worse in two ways - even longer to develop it, and a shorter time to 4.1 which was also paid. I'm not being easy on Hyperion here! :-)
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so, what, that makes it okay? are we to believe that their legal threats and accusations of code theft were all in good fun, then? Because they've "advanced amigaos to a new level," we're just supposed to smile and chuckle and go "aww, that's our hyperion! What won't those rascals get up to?" it might make them a business with a better product track record than, say, cusa, but it doesn't even remotely excuse their behavior.
This is another fine example of the "we'll put up with anything as long as we don't have to see the amiga name die off entirely" mentality shared by an alarming number of people in this community. Is having a commercial maintainer for aos4 so precious as to be a "get out of misbehavior free" card? really?
+1,000
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I've already given you a few of them and even provided a specific example which Jorkany was kind enough to provide citation for.
Your response to that was to ignore everything said and turn to quote mining.
Like I said in regard to your response to Kesa: Typical.
I pointed out to Kesa that attacking the person - an ad hominen attack - is not a good way to win an argument. Attack the argument itself - that's the way to go.
Therefore I bow down to your extremely subtle referential sarcasm in writing "As for Hattig, well that figures." out of nowhere.
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Cheers. I considered that, but it appeared the final final release was December - which makes it worse in two ways - even longer to develop it, and a shorter time to 4.1 which was also paid. I'm not being easy on Hyperion here! :-)
It may seem odd to issue a "final" and then follow that with an "update". But you have to put this in perspective of what followed. (cancellation of contract).
That needed to happen sooner, as opposed to later in most people's minds, hence the odd order of release.
#6
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Is this the Commodore USA thing? I think we already worked out that was because they were going to use the Amiga name with AROS, and Amiga Inc. couldn't license the Amiga name to Commodore USA for that particular use because of the terms of the license with Hyperion. Or the 2005 quote about Aros, which someone else in this thread earlier said wasn't something they were worrying about any longer, and as common sense dictates isn't an issue because they haven't been going after AROS itself, nor the iMica or Ares One - not that we know of anyway.
Well, the fact that we even have to clarify between multiple instances here says a lot, but I was specifically referring to the threatening discussion about AROS and MorphOS. The CUSA thing is at least not completely groundless (after all, they did sign that agreement,) but badmouthing legitimate, underived competitors and impugning their legal status because they're stepping in on your territory is completely indefensible.
Now, I do understand that that was some time ago, Hermans has left (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong,) and I don't think that it's entirely reasonable to hold their past misdeeds against them indefinitely. (Though as near as I can determine, they've yet to apologize in any way, shape, or form for that behavior.) My objection here is more to the idea expressed by multiple people in this thread that their behavior is somehow justified by their producing a product for the Amiga community, like their usefulness in one regard gives them carte blanche to get away with whatever FUDding and contract shenanigans they feel like. That is not an acceptable excuse, never has been, and never will be.
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Now, I do understand that that was some time ago, Hermans has left (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong,) and I don't think that it's entirely reasonable to hold their past misdeeds against them indefinitely.
No. That is incorrect, unless something changed this week. heh.
#6
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No. That is incorrect, unless something changed this week. heh.
Thanks for the correction. All the more reason to not turn a blind eye to this behavior out of convenience, then.
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No. That is incorrect, unless something changed this week. heh.
Hermans stepped down couple of years ago (as I recall he got a job in a Belgian law company) but came back around A-eon press release last year. He has been somewhat active between as I have seen him logging on to IRC.
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Hermans stepped down couple of years ago (as I recall he got a job in a Belgian law company) but came back around A-eon press release last year. He has been somewhat active between as I have seen him logging on to IRC.
So far as I can tell Ben is the only employee of Hyperion, all the developers seem to be contractors, they in turn licence the compiled code (though not the source or the ownership rights) back to Hyperion in lieu of pay. I suspect that latter part plays a major role in why OS4 development has been so glacial - with developers leaving for jobs that actually pay, Hyperion are left with potentially flawed bits of code they're legally not allowed to alter and thus have to re-implement all over again.
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My objection here is more to the idea expressed by multiple people in this thread that their behavior is somehow justified by their producing a product for the Amiga community, like their usefulness in one regard gives them carte blanche to get away with whatever FUDding and contract shenanigans they feel like. That is not an acceptable excuse, never has been, and never will be.
QFMFT++
Best post of the thread, by far.
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Mods - please close this thread due to it being really really BORING!
:D
+1
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So far as I can tell Ben is the only employee of Hyperion, all the developers seem to be contractors, they in turn licence the compiled code (though not the source or the ownership rights) back to Hyperion in lieu of pay.
Ben's day job is in a Belgian law company and I dont think Hyperion ever got formal employees at all. This kind of job (industry) just does not require an office nor employees.