Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: TheBilgeRat on February 16, 2011, 03:25:30 PM
-
While installing the 3.1 ROMS and WB3.1 in my A4000, I decided to give my motherboard the switchover to PAL as the defacto standard. HAving never bothered to run workbench in the PAL modes up until now, all I can say is NTSC is the most flickery POS I have ever seen. Super Hi res mode in PAL has barely barely noticeable flicker. I know it's kind of a moot point these days, but man did the US and anyone else on that crappy NTSC standard drop the ball.
-
Funny, I always thought PAL with its 50Hz refresh rate looked more flickery than NTSC at 60Hz... Maybe interlacing is less offensive at 50Hz? I generally don't touch interlaced modes with a 10 foot pole unless a flickerfixer is involved.
-
I decided to give my motherboard the switchover to PAL as the defacto standard.
What does that even mean? You got out an exacto knife and started chopping traces?
HAving never bothered to run workbench in the PAL modes up until now, all I can say is NTSC is the most flickery POS I have ever seen. Super Hi res mode in PAL has barely barely noticeable flicker. I know it's kind of a moot point these days, but man did the US and anyone else on that crappy NTSC standard drop the ball.
The nicest thing I can say to you right now is "WTF!?"
Whatever video you are viewing, it is NOT NTSC.
Nothing in your entire message makes any sense at all.
Are you drunk? or on some kind of medication?
-
I was pleasantly surprised to discover that interlace modes that were unbearable on my old CRT equipment are now quite usable on my LCD TV with an RGB SCART lead.
-
What does that even mean? You got out an exacto knife and started chopping traces?
There is a PAL/NTSC jumper on the A4000/A4000T motherboards.
-
@Tone007
Nowhere in his post did he say anything about using interlace.
He said "Super Hi res" which makes me wonder if he is using one of those dreadful flickerfixers that is allergic to SuperHiRes mode.
-
There is a PAL/NTSC jumper on the A4000/A4000T motherboards.
Are you 100% sure about that?
I owned an A4000 for a few years before it broke and I don't remember any such jumper in mine. I wanted one because my A3000 had one and I put a switch on it (which I then permanently left in PAL mode for game compatibility reasons).
Maybe I had the PAL jumper in my A4000 and forgot about it because I wanted to avoid the flickery PAL video for doing DTP work. I donno.
-
Are you 100% sure about that?
Yes.
http://amiga.resource.cx/photos/photo2.pl?id=a4000&pg=1&res=hi&lang=en
Right by the joystick/mouse ports.
-
@Tone007
I bought one of the very first A4000s. Maybe that explains it. :)
-
While installing the 3.1 ROMS and WB3.1 in my A4000, I decided to give my motherboard the switchover to PAL as the defacto standard. HAving never bothered to run workbench in the PAL modes up until now, all I can say is NTSC is the most flickery POS I have ever seen. Super Hi res mode in PAL has barely barely noticeable flicker. I know it's kind of a moot point these days, but man did the US and anyone else on that crappy NTSC standard drop the ball.
hmm, NTSC should indeed be less flickery. Is your TV definitely NTSC?
@Chaoslord
"Are you drunk? or on some kind of medication?" bit much don't you think?
-
What does that even mean? You got out an exacto knife and started chopping traces?
No, I switched the jumper from "NTSC" to "PAL".
The nicest thing I can say to you right now is "WTF!?"
Whatever video you are viewing, it is NOT NTSC.
Nothing in your entire message makes any sense at all.
Are you drunk? or on some kind of medication?
Not drunk or on meds. Could be lack of sleep?
-
NTSC resolutions look perfectly fine on my NTSC equipment - I've never seen any kind of flickering with any of it unless it's running in an interlaced mode (which it isn't, ever, because I hate interlacing.) There's certainly complaints to be made about the smaller vertical resolution, but if you're getting serious flicker in non-interlaced modes, something's probably screwed up.
-
hmm, NTSC should indeed be less flickery. Is your TV definitely NTSC?
Its a 1084S using the monitor cable that it came with. It is definitely old and has issues, but for some reason the non laced superhires PAL mode looks a lot better than its NTSC equivalent.
-
NTSC resolutions look perfectly fine on my NTSC equipment - I've never seen any kind of flickering with any of it unless it's running in an interlaced mode (which it isn't, ever, because I hate interlacing.) There's certainly complaints to be made about the smaller vertical resolution, but if you're getting serious flicker in non-interlaced modes, something's probably screwed up.
that is probably the case, actually. This monitor has seen better days. Maybe the freq PAL is on isn't as "used up" :lol:
-
h
@Chaoslord
"Are you drunk? or on some kind of medication?" bit much don't you think?
No.
It was a serious question.
I was hoping he would say yes, as the alternatives that I am thinking of are horrifically scary. That his motherboard has braindamage, or he suffering a stroke at this very moment or having some kind of seizure like that newslady had.
Nothing about his post makes any sense at all.
1. Switching from PAL to NTSC is an effortless thing done with software not hardware.
One switches to NTSC mode by one of the following methods:
A: Run a little proggy, such as PALboot, NTSCboot, Degrader, etc.
B: Hold down both mouse buttons at powerup and use the early startup-menu to switch between PAL and NTSC by pressing the space bar.
C: From workbench, you can select an NTSC screenmode at any time.
All 3 of those options are easier than opening the case, and pulling all kinds of hardware out of the computer so that one can see the motherboard and then moving a jumper and putting it all back together again.
Any A4000 can switch in and out of PAL mode instantly, at the user's command. If one has a strange monitor that freaks out with NTSC signals then one can instantly change back.
2. NTSC is less flickery than PAL.
-
Anyway, I've always found switching the motherboard to PAL mode to be the way to go, since it makes it a lot easier to run the foreign games which are so readily available and won't run in NTSC mode. On the off-chance I need NTSC, there's always the early startup menu. With an LCD I don't have to worry about PAL flicker.
-
No.
It was a serious question.
I was hoping he would say yes, as the alternatives that I am thinking of are horrifically scary. That his motherboard has braindamage, or he suffering a stroke at this very moment or having some kind of seizure like that newslady had.
Nothing about his post makes any sense at all.
1. Switching from PAL to NTSC is an effortless thing done with software not hardware.
One switches to NTSC mode by one of the following methods:
A: Run a little proggy, such as PALboot, NTSCboot, Degrader, etc.
B: Hold down both mouse buttons at powerup and use the early startup-menu to switch between PAL and NTSC by pressing the space bar.
C: From workbench, you can select an NTSC screenmode at any time.
All 3 of those options are easier than opening the case, and pulling all kinds of hardware out of the computer so that one can see the motherboard and then moving a jumper and putting it all back together again.
All true, except I was in there already replacing my 3.0 roms with 3.1 roms and I have no zorro cards to move out of the way.
Any A4000 can switch in and out of PAL mode instantly, at the user's command. If one has a strange monitor that freaks out with NTSC signals then one can instantly change back.
2. NTSC is less flickery than PAL.
Seems logically argued. My bad.
-
Anyway, I've always found switching the motherboard to PAL mode to be the way to go, since it makes it a lot easier to run the foreign games which are so readily available and won't run in NTSC mode. On the off-chance I need NTSC, there's always the early startup menu. With an LCD I don't have to worry about PAL flicker.
This was basically it. I was spending more time holding down the mouse buttons to switch into PAL for some games, as most of my productivity software is NTSC/PAL agnostic.
-
I know you are not using interlace. But do you have any kind of hardware flickerfixer installed?
-
I know you are not using interlace. But do you have any kind of hardware flickerfixer installed?
No.
-
If it is a monitor problem then try this:
Use workbench in NTSC HIRES mode (640x200). See how it looks.
Then switch to PAL HIRES (640x256). You should then see how much better NTSC looked.
-
If it is a monitor problem then try this:
Use workbench in NTSC HIRES mode (640x200). See how it looks.
Then switch to PAL HIRES (640x256). You should then see how much better NTSC looked.
tried that - the opposite is true.
-
Looks like your monitor has given up on those frequencies :(
I'd test it on a telly to make sure it isn't the Amiga, following what CL said above (most modern TV's in the UK should hold an NTSC signal).
-
I don't know about the 1084, but the 1080 i have (NTSC) could not display PAL screens complete, be it a game or app, unless i trimmed the vertical size a bit. Although more games were issued as PAL, i remember the FA-18 Interceptor running full-screen on my A1000, whereas it left a blank stripe on PAL miggies... :-)
It all comes down to what each individual wants; if you happen to do video stuff and use cameras and vcr's and genlocks that are NTSC, you simply have to stick with that..
-
http://amiga.resource.cx/photos/photo2.pl?id=a4000&pg=1&res=hi&lang=en
Damn, now I want one of those.
-
PAL uses 50 Hz, NTSC 60 Hz vertical refresh - so NTSC means less flicker. If flicker increases instead it's due to your monitor not being able to handle it (or some weird hardware defect).
-
A: Run a little proggy, such as PALboot, NTSCboot, Degrader, etc.
Hmm..
I didn't know about PALboot.. Will have to look into it..
(don't see it in aminet on first glance...)
Of course, I'm already booting, using ACATUNE to remap to KS 3.1, and rebooting. I assume that palboot will then AGAIN reboot my Amiga.
And then, if it's something I put into my startup sequence, will it detect that it's already in PAL or just reboot again and again.. I'll have to fin dit and check...
Even if palboot will work from startup sequence (and not loop), every time I power up my A1200, it's 3 boots?
I asked on EAB if they might add an option to ACATUNE for that (so I'd just have the one reboot), but they didn't respond, so I'm assuming it's not being considered..
If I'm going to be running PAL all the time, I wouldn't want to have to hold the mouse buttons down to choose it?
What I'm doing now is having to add "PAL" to every whdload icon, so the games run properly. To bad there's not (that I found) a global whdload setup. But even then, I have some non-whdload games that really want the A1200 in PAL.
I know there's a hardware hack to default my A1200 to PAL (Pin 31 or 32 of Alice or something..), but I haven't decided to go there yet...
It's too bad that PAL/NTSC couldn't be a "sticky" setting in the boot menu.
Or maybe make a custom kickstart ROM that defaults one way or the other?
It's not too difficult to toggle in software, I'd just like to minimize the toggling.. ;-)
desiv
-
All my miggies are hardware switchable PAL/NTSC - actually it's the only way to make an A2024 run PALish (1024x1024) or NTSCish (1024x800) modes. ;)
[edit]
On the A1200 you can remove R203 and replace it with a switch - open: PAL, closed: NTSC
-
50hz pal mode looks horrible on my industry grade Wells Gardner D9800 arcade monitor with the strobe flickering. I don't understand why anyone would prefer PAL over NTSC, considering the extra 100 blank lines at the bottom. On Youtube people have these large letterboxes with squished video on a 4:3 screen and think it's the norm. NTSC mode, the games fill the screen.
I'm not sure what you mean by the majority of games are x over x.. many of the games I've went through in the WHD and Gamebase collection holds true to this, i.e. I often see Lemmings and Gods with wierd proportions, when in NTSC the game video fills border to border.
Gameplay is also noticably choppier on pal's 50 fps. That goes with any system.. like Sega Genesis is smoother than the Mega Drive.
-
Anyway... When you put the 2 technologies against each other PAL is the best...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL
NTSC has a lot of isues... Cant handle colours that well and so on...
-
PAL interlace is a flickery bastard, for sure. I used to do all my artwork in interlace. My eyes would strobe for about an hour after i'd come off the machine! Shame they never came up with a PAL 60 mode like the dreamcast had.
of course, now LCD are the norm, the flicker is pretty much eliminated.
PAL games should not strobe, as they are not in an interlaced mode.
-
PAL60 is composite video using PAL color modulation combined with NTSC vertical timing (e.g. used for somewhat PAL-compatible playback of NTSC video). When you look at RGB video - where there's no color modulation - PAL / NTSC only differ in timing. So a PAL Amiga running in NTSC mode actually does output PAL60.
-
PAL uses 50 Hz, NTSC 60 Hz vertical refresh - so NTSC means less flicker.
This isn't quite as true as you make out. Certainly the time periods involved would mean PAL was more "flickery". However, PAL has a better resolution so the size of the flicker is less.
As the perception of vision varies from person to person some people notice the flicker in PAL more, they are more perceptive to time interval, and some people notice the flicker size in NTSC more, they are more perceptive to the flicker size.
Overall the quality of the connection tends to be way more important. Composite is quite frankly a steaming pile of plop, avoid it at all costs.
It also matters of course, the nature of whatever you are viewing. A Workbench screen is generated by the Amiga directly. If one was talking about a video the matter of source material, standards conversion, drop frames and all make the issue far more complex, but I'm not going to go into that right now, I'm far too busy today.
Sadly, in my experience, most of the video industry (I worked for many years as a DVD author for Touchstone productions) have less technical knowledge than they should have. Take out a DVD and check out some still menus, you will find many that flicker like mad, the sub-pic (selection highlight) in particular. This is easily improved by applying a single pixel vertical blur to the menu and sup-pic. Or better still by avoiding odd numbers of vertical pixels to any horizontal lines in the menu design. Not difficult but seldom done, sadly.
And all that's before we even consider the screen itself of course.
-
This isn't quite as true as you make out. Certainly the time periods involved would mean PAL was more "flickery". However, PAL has a better resolution so the size of the flicker is less.
Sounds slightly esoteric to me.
Which "time periods" are you referring to? Can't get the "size of the flicker" thing either, sorry...
It also matters of course, the nature of whatever you are viewing. A Workbench screen is generated by the Amiga directly. If one was talking about a video the matter of source material, standards conversion, drop frames and all make the issue far more complex, but I'm not going to go into that right now, I'm far too busy today.
Filmed video material generally is less susceptible to flicker as vertical contrast will usually be less. A computer output can have extreme contrast between odd/even lines which will cause severe flicker due to the brightness difference.
-
Sounds slightly esoteric to me.
Which "time periods" are you referring to? Can't get the "size of the flicker" thing either, sorry...
The time periods I refer to are the one 50th and one 60th of a second timing for the fields for PAL and NTSC respectively.
The size of the flicker is due to the physical height of the pixels, smaller on PAL than NTSC due to superior resolution.
Filmed video material generally is less susceptible to flicker as vertical contrast will usually be less. A computer output can have extreme contrast between odd/even lines which will cause severe flicker due to the brightness difference.
Indeed it is, unless of course someone in the film is wearing a thinly (horizontally) stripped item of clothing then be prepares for moire madness.
As for computer outputs, yes, you are correct. Sometimes playing with things like Workbench colours can help. Now what was that prog that doubled the thickness of the horizontal lines on WB? I can't remember.
Of course, filmed video material often suffers from more "staggering" with NTSC video than PAL. This is due to the conversion from 24p film to NTSCs 60 fields (30 frames interlaced). Interpolation between frames is required. It is far easier to speed the film up a fraction for PALs 25 frames of course. If you need me to clarify anything else feel free to ask.
-
VisualPrefs? I'm sure that lets you double a lot of the line thickness, as well as change the colours so there was less contrast.
There was also 'magicTV' for 16 colour AGA workbench's. God knows how that worked, might as well have been magic to me!
I used to use a combo of these. Of course they were bugger all use for my two main packages- DPaint and Imagine. So strobe eye continued ;)
adding a SCART cable made the biggest difference to me.
-
The time periods I refer to are the one 50th and one 60th of a second timing for the fields for PAL and NTSC respectively.
Re-reading the post, I must've got you wrong here (think I read "PAL is less flickery here").
However, I still don't follow you on the "physical height" of the pixel. Sure, PAL has a higher resolution, but on a CRT, a scan line drawn is always the same height and covers the same area. On PAL there are more lines (tighter spacing) than on (full frame) NTSC, so the pic appears slightly brighter - which means more contrast & more flicker.
On an LCD it's another story, but then again - that's a progressive display and shouldn't be flickering at all.
-
On an LCD it's another story, but then again - that's a progressive display and shouldn't be flickering at all.
Tell that to the el cheapo LCD i just plugged my Xbox into. Copied my workbench over to Xwinuae, and it's flickering really badly. It's like 1988 all over again :(
-
IMHO, this is what killed the Amiga for me back in the day and forced my switch to PC.
While we had more colors than VGA PC's, the only liveable resolutions you could run the Amiga in made it look like an Atari 2600, unless you had a RTG card but who could afford one of those (Not me!).
I remember seeing a friend playing Wing Commander on his 486 and it looked great. Wing Commander on my Amiga looked pale by comparison with the the pilots hand looking so grainy it looked like he had chicken-pox! :)
-
wing commander did not run in interlace. it ran in 320x200 (same rez as PC VGA version). Amigas standard mode (in PAL areas) is 320x256, which is higher so that's not why it looks grainy. The reasons why it's grainy are: It's for ECS, which normal colour max is 64, VGA is 256. VGA wing commander runs in a chunky pixel format, amiga uses slower bitplains, so they used less bitplanes to speed it up. Also they ran it in 320x200, probably for ease of conversion, and to keep the speed up. Also, it's ported from the 16 colour EGA version, which is butt ugly.
The CD32 version (which also runs on the A1200) has loads more colours, and looks more like it's VGA counterpart. Although it still runs at 320x200.
-
NTSC - Never Twice the Same Colour.
Hardly surprising. Americans can't even spell the word colour, let alone create it!
:lol:
-
NTSC - Never Twice the Same Colour.
Hardly surprising. Americans can't even spell the word colour, let alone create it!
:lol:
NTSC TV programs look like clothes that have been through a boil wash by mistake!
-
Never seen NTSC TV. Was it really that bad?
-
Never seen NTSC TV. Was it really that bad?
Yep, we are spoilt with PAL. :)
-
NTSC - Never Twice the Same Colour.
Hardly surprising. Americans can't even spell the word colour, let alone create it!
:lol:
LOL! When I was in film school (we shot a lot of video to save money) we called it:
Never The Same Color
I hated NTSC then and now.
-
NTSC TV programs look like clothes that have been through a boil wash by mistake!
Ah, boiled laundry - AKA english cuisine.
-
Ah, boiled laundry - AKA english cuisine.
As opposed to soiled laundry AKA American "Cuisine".
-
lol to you both with knobs on. Besides, english cuisine is now officialy the curry. Apart from cakes, we do make nice cakes.
-
lol to you both with knobs on. Besides, english cuisine is now officialy the curry. Apart from cakes, we do make nice cakes.
We make the best pies too. Well, we Lancastrians do anyway. :)
-
Steak and kidney, pork, lamb.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Avb9GZTQI_U/TP6QhwuGYcI/AAAAAAAAABs/m6L_8UhrXq0/s1600/DSC02615.JPG)
-
lol to you both with knobs on. Besides, english cuisine is now officialy the curry. Apart from cakes, we do make nice cakes.
I seriously do not understand the English and their fascination with this particular dish (which to me has a smell reminiscent of vulcanized rubber).
-
I seriously do not understand the English and their fascination with this particular dish (which to me has a smell reminiscent of vulcanized rubber).
Curry is a wonderful thing. Scientifically proven to kill the flu virus as well as being tasty. :)
-
Curry is a wonderful thing. Scientifically proven to kill the flu virus as well as being tasty. :)
Are you sure it kills the flu virus or does the virus just flee the obnoxious odor?
-
Are you sure it kills the flu virus or does the virus just flee the obnoxious odor?
Perhaps you can't get a proper curry in the states as the real stuff smells gorgeous.
-
Are you sure it kills the flu virus or does the virus just flee the obnoxious odor?
and I don't understand American obsession with mexican food. I guess when you live in close proximity/are connected to another culture, you learn to love their food.
-
and I don't understand American obsession with mexican food. I guess when you live in close proximity/are connected to another culture, you learn to love their food.
I love curry, but I do have some great Curry houses near me... Also good is the Mexican Wahaca, their slow roast gloucester old spot burrito is splendid! I should also mention The Bavarian BeerHouse too, I could live on their Schweinshaxe :)
Of course, I also love my local Chinese... Who do a mean Cha Sui... I think I'm required by law to say that though.
I think I'm hungry :-/
-
LMAO, I love curry, Mexican food, Chinese, Indonesian, Thai etc....
Just as long as no one puts a corpse in it. Vege all the way.
As for NTSC being colour blandness made manifest, I have to agree. PAL colour is much nicer.
-
I used to love the crappy conversions that were done from NSTC to PAL of american shows. The picture was awful and everyhting was soooooooo red
-
I used to love the crappy conversions that were done from NSTC to PAL of american shows. The picture was awful and everyhting was soooooooo red
Brasseye.
-
and I don't understand American obsession with mexican food. I guess when you live in close proximity/are connected to another culture, you learn to love their food.
My three favourite foods are Indian, Chinese and Mexican but I don't live near anyone of those nationalities or (apart from 1 Mexican and 1 Indian friends) have any connections to their culture that made me choose the food... :)
Simple thing is, it's some of the best, hottest, spiciest & tastiest food on the planet... :D
(Oh yeah... Fish'n'Chips as well, luvlly jubbly... :D))
PS:I wouldn't feed haggis to a starving dog though... boak... :(
-
Thought this was a discussion about NTSC vs PAL? **shakes head**
-
Well, let's see...
Noodles
Tomatos
Salad
Chicken
and
Paella
Asparagus
Lamb chops
I'm with PAL, obviously...
(desperately trying to return to topic :D)
-
Got the following from the Tektronix Video measurement glossary (255 pages of good tech info). Tektronix are one of the premier suppliers of video test equipment.
What’s Wrong with NTSC
A. Monochrome and Color Defects
1. Due to Sampling
• Temporal Alias
• Vertical Alias
• Vertical Resolution Loss
(Kell Factor)
2. Due to aperture
• Visible Scanning Lines
• Soft Vertical Edges
3. Due to Interlace
• Twitter
• Line Crawl
• Vertical Resolution Loss
(Interlace Coefficient)
4. Due to Transmission
• Ghosts
• ICPM
• Group Delay
• Impulsive Noise
• Periodic Noise
• Random Noise
• Interference
• Filter Artifacts
5. Due to Changing Equipment
• Non-Linear System Gamma
B. Color defects
1. Visible in Monochrome
• Cross Luminance
• Visible Subcarrier
• Chroma Crawl
• Gamma Problems
• Detail Loss Due to Filters
• Visible Scannig Lines • Ringing Due to Filters
2. Visible in Color
• Cross Color
• Detail Loss Due to Filters
• Ringing Due to Filters
C. Characteristics of the System
• Motion Artifacts, (Not Necessarily Defects)
1. 4:3 Aspect Ratio
2. 330 x 330 Resolution
3. NTSC Colorimetry
4. 15 kHz Sound
Changing the sub-carrier phase on alternate lines (PAL) helped to eliminate a lot of colour defects. The old joke was that PAL = Pay A Lot (of money) as it was more expensive to implement.
The Amiga's video output in PAL or NTSC is not fully compliant with the video specifications. The Non-interlaced mode has no equalising pulses but outputs alternate fields of video as per normal interlaced video.. This can cause some issues with equipment. The interlaced mode was better but there were issues with the timing in the vertical blank period.
RGB PAL or NTSC with the correct cabling and a decent monitor can be very good quality. Composite NTSC/PAL is easy to spot when you know what to look for. Case in point, on my holiday to the USA last year, the in flight entertainment system had a colour bar pattern to adjust the video brightness. From that pattern and the noise artefacts on the text, it was obvious Virgin Atlantic uses PAL composite video! ;)
I design embedded video systems for a living using PAL/NTSC and various digital formats.
Ian
-
Are you sure it kills the flu virus or does the virus just flee the obnoxious odor?
The result is the same!
Ché
-
As for NTSC being colour blandness made manifest, I have to agree. PAL colour is much nicer.
I remember a Speach of Jimi Carter transmitted to Europe when his face went from yellow to green toblue back and forth but never human pink.
Never the same color
Ché
-
@stedy
So, an Amiga user and a TV expert, brilliant! Now tell me something iv'e wanted to know for years...how the hell does magicTV work?
-
Thank goodness the whole things has been rendered moot in current technology...