Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Franko on February 14, 2011, 01:17:06 PM
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With the announcement from the NatAmi team that this little beauty of a machine is well on the way to becoming a reality for all of us in Amigaland, it's been making me wonder just what new & exciting possibilities could be just around the corner for the Amiga... :)
I reckon & hope that having a new "standardised" system this will open up the possibilities for both old software to be updated and totally new software to once again become a reality... :)
If we're all going to have a basic set up that's 060 based with X amount of ram, enhanced GFX, USB as standard etc..., then I hope that this will encourage all us coders out there to once again start writing new or updating old software for the Amiga... :)
It should mean, no more thinking along the lines of, "well I have this idea for a game/app, but what's the point in writing it if only a few folk have an 060 etc... to take advantage of it". The basic configuration of the NatAmi should become the new "minimum standard" for writing new software... :)
Of course it doesn't only mean that new games/apps have to be written specifically for 060 or for the new GFX modes, it could be that you could just write standard 020/AGA stuff but in the knowledge that users would have X amount of RAM, USB etc... as the minimum configuration. This would also be a benefit to those who have an A1200 with extra RAM etc... already, looks like winners all round to me... :)
To me it looks like some very fun & interesting time are ahead for the Amiga and for first time since 1994 things in Amigaland look promising... :)
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A good computer...but new good softwares are needed to create a real success!!!
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I only hope it actually makes it to market. It really looks like it will...but there have been so many close calls in Amigaland over the years that I won't count the chickens until they are hatched.
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The screenshots of 3D demos for the 3D core are interesting but would be nice to see them at least as Youtube videos in action though.
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It looks like there will be two levels to aim for.
(1) ~10 MIPS or ~50MHz 68030 performance - FPGAArcade.
(2) Really quite fast 133MHz N68050.
There's a chance that both boards will include a chunky mode as an extension to AGA - Natami certainly will. If so, we could finally get a bunch of older 3D games running nicely without needing graphics cards.
Most important is that it could get more people programming the Amiga. Certainly it could become a nice hardware platform for the demo scene to target.
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The one thing that annoys me is that the N68050 won't have a full MMU, so running things like Enforcer will require the 68060 daughterboard if you want to actually use the Natami to develop/debug with those kind of tools. I'll still end up buying one, though.
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I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but if it does make it and it isn't too horribly expensive, I wil be all over this.
As for coding, I still plan to make the A500 my baseline, but it'll be nice to have the option for more when running other peoples' software.
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The one thing that annoys me is that the N68050 won't have a full MMU, so running things like Enforcer will require the 68060 daughterboard if you want to actually use the Natami to develop/debug with those kind of tools. I'll still end up buying one, though.
Toni Wilen, the current author of WinUae is involved with the project, so there could be some dev helpfrom there. He's just put MMU code into winuae I believe.
@Commodorejohn
A500 is a good baseline ;), and the A1200, minimig, FPGA users and NatAmi owners will be able to enjoy the fruits of these labours too :) This is why I love the idea of NatAmi, it's true classic Amiga, but should have enough grunt for more modern stuff too. A decent browser and a little bit of 3D, and lots of nice 2D games please!
I hope it's not too expensive to, 68060's are not cheap! I may have to wait for their 050 core.
I also hope they don't opt for PC cases. I'd like to see some nice custom Amiga cases, for those that want them. Personally, i'd like a wedge, dunno why, always loved them. I guess they just shout 'home computer' to me.
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Toni Wilen, the current author of WinUae is involved with the project, so there could be some dev helpfrom there. He's just put MMU code into winuae I believe.
You are mistaken. Toni is a member of the AROS 68k team. Not the NatAmi team at all. He couldn't care less about the NatAmi.
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Certainly it could become a nice hardware platform for the demo scene to target.
Except that unless WinUAE emulates these new features or the board are sub-$100, I'd say there will be zero support from the demoscene. :)
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I also hope they don't opt for PC cases. I'd like to see some nice custom Amiga cases, for those that want them. Personally, i'd like a wedge, dunno why, always loved them. I guess they just shout 'home computer' to me.
Problem with wedges is balancing a monitor on top of them - even the A500 just wasn't deep enough to stably support a monitor. I snagged someone's homebuilt monitor stand that I use with my MSX, but I'd rather pass on having another wedge case. That said, I do hope they go for something other than your standard tower or desktop case; I'd like to see something in a low-profile design like the Dreamcast, but I guess we'll see how it all works out.
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You are mistaken. Toni is a member of the AROS 68k team. Not the NatAmi team at all. He couldn't care less about the NatAmi.
Shame, must have misinterpreted thread from here: http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=2¬e=25408&order=&x=3&z=_3-yUS
"in other news, Toni Wilen (WinUAE) has now joined the project and will help out with AROS-m68k :)
His goal is to ensure as good support as possible for hardware-hitting games and apps, so that he eventually can distribute an AROS ROM with WinUAE."
So it's just AROS then, I misinterpreted it as having joined the NatAmi team.
I guess WinUae with MMU will be of use for developing software-but strictly from a pure classic stand point? No new NatAmi features.
Would they have to release 68050 emulation code to take advantage of that processors special features (if any)?
@Britelite, can't see $100 happening, I think we will be luck if it's under $500 I think they should have donme the 050 before the 3D core-would reduce cost and increase preformance over an 060 version (if what they say is true..they seem to know their stuff).
Do you have this from demogroups themselves? i'd be interested to know the scenes attitude to this machine, if you have any info.
However, if they knew it was fully Amiga compatible, with 24bit but 3x the speed of an 060, they could just program for that, from winuae. Ok, you'd miss out on the NatAni features, but would look very nice all the same.
@commodorejohn
True, but you could have a few options. I mean, most PC users have the monitor free standing, with the tower under the desk, and LCD's don't need much room. But I see your point, are you hoping for more of a desktop design? My Amiga moves about a lot (room to room, house to house, rarely country to country) , wedges are ideal for that.
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True, but you could have a few options. I mean, most PC users have the monitor free standing, with the tower under the desk, and LCD's don't need much room. But I see your point, are you hoping for more of a desktop design? My Amiga moves about a lot (room to room, house to house, rarely country to country) , wedges are ideal for that.
Yeah, but I really can't stand LCDs - the color range is a lot better than it used to be, but still nowhere near a good CRT. It's like listening to music on $20 speakers. I do agree about mobility, though. Some kind of small, low-profile case that can be easily carried around would be ideal. Wedge cases aren't bad for that, but having an integrated keyboard adds quite a bit to the footprint unless it's a laptop.
Still, as long as it stays in a standard form factor, I'm sure I can find a case that suits my needs :)
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Oh lord. "CRTs are better! Put it in a wedge case!"
Jesus, why not just seal it in a 20lb block of epoxy and make it only hook up to zenith console sets while you're at it?
I'd love to have one, but only if they offer bare boards I can put in a case and connect to a monitor of my choosing.
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The Natami MX is Mini-ITX standard, except it's even smaller. It will fit in any Mini-ITX PC case and a bunch of other cases, most likely a Dreamcast too. It's 17cm x 14cm, so being shorter than a standard Mini-ITX motherboard it has even more chances of fitting inside a modified Amiga case too.
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Oh lord. "CRTs are better! Put it in a wedge case!"
Jesus, why not just seal it in a 20lb block of epoxy and make it only hook up to zenith console sets while you're at it?
I'd love to have one, but only if they offer bare boards I can put in a case and connect to a monitor of my choosing.
jesus I don't think any of us were saying MUST be a wedge, MUST be a crt. Get a grip man!
And a CRT will give you a much better picture for old school games built to work on CRT TV's originaly. Artists specifically use the phosphor glow to blend the colours, but you knew that anyway, so i'm going to take one off your troll score for that ;)
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jesus I don't think any of us were saying MUST be a wedge, MUST be a crt. Get a grip man!
And a CRT will give you a much better picture for old school games built to work on CRT TV's originaly. Artists specifically use the phosphor glow to blend the colours, but you knew that anyway, so i'm going to take one off your troll score for that ;)
I don't give a crap about the "glow of phosphors"; burning reactor cores give off a lovely soft blue glow, and I'm not going to go stare the RBMK-1000 core at Chernobyl in the face :D
I also don't give a fig for "old school games"*, I've had WinUAE for that for what, nearly a decade now? Show me what new things can be done with this new hardware.
*=and I never cared for platformers, side-scrollers or other nonsense anyway: I'm a driving and flight sim guy.
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Not interested in reactor core glow either...but heard a lot of russian speccy fans have gone bald and grown extra hands :)
Sadly, hardware needs developers...this could be the problem, your right. Ten years ago, we might have been all right,now?...I don't know so much.
I mean, I have a N900 phone, GPU, loads of RAM etc...but just getting ports. I think Acorn Achimedes had the same problem.
As for UAE, yeah I use it a lot too, even use it at work.
But on games night on a friday, it's nice getting the old girl out for a play (the A1200 that is..) And a damn site easier to clean up than lugging my PCtower down to the concervatory (and no, I won't let the bunch of drunks I have round play UAE on the laptop....just think spillage)
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I'm guessing here, but I think Toni got MMU in WinUAE from the Aranym project, the Atari ST/Falcon emulator, that again got m68k emulation from UAE.
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Oh lord. "CRTs are better! Put it in a wedge case!"
Jesus, why not just seal it in a 20lb block of epoxy and make it only hook up to zenith console sets while you're at it?
Dude, I wasn't trying to prescribe anything - just offering my opinion. Besides, unless they decide to build it with an integrated monitor for no conceivable reason, who would care what any individual hooked it up to?
Now I want to hook it up to an old Zenith just to spite you ;P
Sadly, hardware needs developers...this could be the problem, your right. Ten years ago, we might have been all right,now?...I don't know so much.
Hardware can draw developers to it, though. If the AROS68k port keeps progressing as it has been, that'll give the NatAmi a leg up on the software thing and hopefully generate some interest in developing for it, and I think/hope Franko is right about it becoming a new standard target, though that will depend largely on how affordable it turns out to be.
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Hardware can draw developers to it, though. If the AROS68k port keeps progressing as it has been, that'll give the NatAmi a leg up on the software thing and hopefully generate some interest in developing for it, and I think/hope Franko is right about it becoming a new standard target, though that will depend largely on how affordable it turns out to be.
That's what i'm hoping C=john. I think it might get a bit more interest than we are expecting, and not just from Amigans/lapsed Amigans.
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To me it looks like some very fun & interesting time are ahead for the Amiga and for first time since 1994 things in Amigaland look promising... :)
I can only agree on that too! And I personally would care if they put a nice unique "Amiga only" cover on that pretty mobo. Even colorchoices for black or white plastic would be cool.
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so now this commodore-amiga firm could go, remake and release some a4k keyboards that one could stick into a standard minitx case. seems they are good at things like that, and it might even give them some actual return. ;]
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The Natami MX is Mini-ITX standard, except it's even smaller. It will fit in any Mini-ITX PC case and a bunch of other cases, most likely a Dreamcast too. It's 17cm x 14cm, so being shorter than a standard Mini-ITX motherboard it has even more chances of fitting inside a modified Amiga case too.
Hmm, and I just found this (http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/dreamcastpc/) project...this looks doable, I might have to try it when I get a NatAmi :)
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I know this is not do-able - but it would be cool!
(http://www.prolaptopshop.com/images/xi3-pair2.jpg)
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it's a miniATX board isn't it? i'll hunt some down tommorow. NatAmi has been around for years....but iv'e now decided to allow the 'get excited' button to be pressed :)
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That's what i'm hoping C=john. I think it might get a bit more interest than we are expecting, and not just from Amigans/lapsed Amigans.
Atari and X68000 people perhaps.
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I reckon there must be plenty of coders lurking about that would love to start writing games/apps once again in 68000 Assembler... :)
If the NatAmi sets the new basic standard for the Amiga then the possibilities are endless for the emergence of new or even just updated software. I just hope enough units can be made and sold to kindle a revival in the world of Amiga once again... :)
Who knows if the NatAmi becomes popular enough perhaps it might see some interest from some big investors and then things could really take of in Amigaland once again, only time will tell but things are looking pretty damn good for the first time in years... :)
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Who knows if the NatAmi becomes popular enough perhaps it might see some interest from some big investors and then things could really take of in Amigaland once again, only time will tell but things are looking pretty damn good for the first time in years... :)
I wouldn't get your hopes set on that just yet; I'd be happy enough if it sees a modest-size production run with the N68050. Still, you never know :)
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I wouldn't get your hopes set on that just yet; I'd be happy enough if it sees a modest-size production run with the N68050. Still, you never know :)
If I believe or hope in something I never give up on that hope or dream no matter how long it may take, heck I waited 30 years just to see The Specials in concert once again and that happened in 2009, I spent 30 years trying to track down an old school mate of mine and that happened last summer... :)
Only thing is, I don't have another 30 years left to wait on the NatAmi, but I can still dream & hope as good things come to those who wait in the end (or 30 years later as it would seem) ... :)
As you say, you never know... ;)
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Hmm, and I just found this (http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/dreamcastpc/) project...this looks doable, I might have to try it when I get a NatAmi :)
It would be better in a CD32 case (from a dead CD32 of course - don't wreck a working one).
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It would be better in a CD32 case (from a dead CD32 of course - don't wreck a working one).
Ehh, I'll let you do that - the CD32 looks too much like the other "the future will look like a 1980s answering machine" early CD consoles to my eyes...
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It would be better in a CD32 case (from a dead CD32 of course - don't wreck a working one).
Hi,
Yes a dead 68060 running at 133 mhz to 166 mhz would look good in a dead CD32 case after all the 68060 is a pretty dead processor after all.
Well back to my old win uae which would make the new Natami look like a snail running backwards.
but
in a way it would be fun to code in 68000 assembly, OHHHH we can do that in UAE after all it emulates a 68000 but just moves faster because of the updated Intel chips.
smerf
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Hi,
Yes a dead 68060 running at 133 mhz to 166 mhz would look good in a dead CD32 case after all the 68060 is a pretty dead processor after all.
Well back to my old win uae which would make the new Natami look like a snail running backwards.
but
in a way it would be fun to code in 68000 assembly, OHHHH we can do that in UAE after all it emulates a 68000 but just moves faster because of the updated Intel chips.
smerf
Hi Smerf ... :)
It's not dead, it's just been on life support for a wee while and now it's about to get a nice wee pacemaker fitted that should put some life back into the old thing once again... :)
Anywhoo, win uae and backward running snails are much the same thing really , just need to pour some salt on em and watch em shrivel up like me poor old big toe has done in recent years, (word of caution, never steep you big toe overnight in salty water, it make it prune like...:()
No point in coding on a UAE emulator and proclaiming, "looky here everybods I just wrote a wee proggy that runs like lightning on my UAE wotsit, but if you try to use it on your real miggy it'll run like a dead dog with asthma"... :)
Well off to bed now and steep me spare big toe overnight, just so I've got a matching pair in the morning... :)
Cheers
Franko
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No point in coding on a UAE emulator and proclaiming, "looky here everybods I just wrote a wee proggy that runs like lightning on my UAE wotsit, but if you try to use it on your real miggy it'll run like a dead dog with asthma"... :)
Kind of like there's no point in coding anything for the Natami's new features as nothing in that case will run on a real amiga...
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Hi,
Yes a dead 68060 running at 133 mhz to 166 mhz would look good in a dead CD32 case after all the 68060 is a pretty dead processor after all.
Well back to my old win uae which would make the new Natami look like a snail running backwards.
smerf
A dead 060 in a dead cd32 case, on a forum dedicated to a dead OS from a dead hardware platform from a dead company....and still you post on it?
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For sure NatAmi is an interesting project. Let's wait for ready product and we'll see what it is worth.
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I wonder if it would be possible to patch older games that make you choose between music and sfx so that you could have both simultaneously. The sound logic in the natami should be able to handle it, hmmmm?
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For sure NatAmi is an interesting project. Let's wait for ready product and we'll see what it is worth.
True, I think we still have a year+ for the software to be finished. Still, at least it is no longer 'vapour'...(well, not completely!)