Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Digiman on February 09, 2011, 11:52:23 PM
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OK we have problems when it comes to an actual genuine new Amiga. There is no shortage of ways to EXCEED top of the line PC performance at any given time for approximately half or 33% of the cost of such a system.
But the problem is simply that to make such systems, the last two being PS3 and Xbox 360 on launch day vs most powerful PC for sale at that time, had to be on a scale of selling 10s of millions a year to make the R&D financially viable.
So here is the problem...
1. We need a new CPU, if it isn't remotely PPC compatible we have extra work to do but at the very least it has to be something like 3.2Ghz triple core 6 thread CPU by IBM sold to Microsoft for use in Xbox 360.
2. We need a defined base specification of GPU (don't say this is unfeasible, consoles do it all the time by thinking ahead and still manage decade long life cycles.
3. We need a massive effort for OS update. OS must be natively compatible with Amiga 'legal' applications run on Workbench AND instantly jump in with emulation to account for lack of OCS/AGA if no FPGA etc of AGA/OCS exists.
4. Massive investment/incentive to get Firefox or Chrome quality browser ported to our new OS as well as all CODECS for a media player and a conversion of Open Office to stick it to the Microsoft Office man.
5. All the above must be handled by ONE COMPANY, none of this tweedle dumb does minor OS updates and tweedle dee does some overpriced fantasy motherboard only using 1/2 cores of CPU to run that software.
Trouble is there is simply not enough profit to even get past point number one, the investment required is astronomical and yet the return would be minimal at the very best.
Is this why Amiga is and always shall be nothing more than hobby piece of retro hardware like Minimig/NatAmi or just an esoteric OS + emulation of real classic Amigas ie OS4/MOS/AROS for either PPC bare bones motherboards/PC x86 boxes?
Technically is not the issue, financial requirements are though.
Perhaps we should all just enjoy the legacy of Amiga and leave it at that? There is no shame in being the owner of a vintage 1985 computer than annihilated EVERYTHING for sale to home or business users on the day of launch by such a huge margin that the owning company didn't even have a clue how to describe it to people weened on rubbish Mac/PC DOS/ST/8bit :)
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I don't see why it has to be only "keep up with the Joneses" or "stick to original equipment and give up on improvement." I think there's definitely room for improvement, and probably ways to make a boosted Amiga feasible for small-scale production, but I think that setting our sights on keeping up with the leading edge (or even the stable mid-range) of commodity PC hardware is pretty much unachievable at this point, unless one of us turns out to have a quirky billionaire uncle who suddenly dies and leaves us his entire estate. It'd be better to set sights on something less impressive but more achievable.
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What I meant is a true successor to the Amiga circa 1985-87.
But to build something capable of playing the most technically demanding Amiga games (Wipeout 2097...which you can run on £10 PS1s anyway) requires PPC 603/604 for OS4 and those are expensive CPUs
Porting OS4 to x86 also never going to be done by Hyperion.
Kinda stuck on every front....like renovating a condemned listed building really.
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Kinda depends on what you mean by a "true successor," then. Are you talking about a 68k-Amiga compatible machine? Is the idea to improve the existing Amiga experience, or recreate it from scratch on more powerful hardware? What is your goal?
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Perhaps we should all just enjoy the legacy of Amiga and leave it at that? There is no shame in being the owner of a vintage 1985 computer than annihilated EVERYTHING for sale to home or business users on the day of launch by such a huge margin that the owning company didn't even have a clue how to describe it to people weened on rubbish Mac/PC DOS/ST/8bit :)
I personally think that's the best way for the Amiga to remain... :)
To me currently the only real option of a NEW Amiga that would even come close to being like the legacy Amiga is the NatAmi. If the NatAmi ever becomes a reality then that is probably the only NEW type of Amiga I would purchase, providing it lives up the the specs and claims of it's developers.
If it did then it would mean we could have...
1: A new modern (not second hand) piece of hardware that is 100% backwards compatible with the Amiga...
2: Runs faster without having to scour the likes of ebay and pay ridiculous prices for an old accelerator board that you can't even guarantee will be working...
3: Has new & better GFX modes that programers could learn about and write new software to take advantage of...
4: Make available the ease of use of adding things like USB/ HDs/ DVD Drives etc... without the need to try and find add on hardware controller boards...
5. It can be programmed they way it should be in M68k Assembler, as there are still plenty of talented coders around who could write new stuff to take advantage of it's new features or just create new progs to take advantage of it's increased speed...
6: It would be very easy for anyone with the slightest bit of previous experience of ever using an Amiga to pick up and be able to use it comfortably without having to figure out much about it.
To me that would be the best way for the Amiga to go forward as there is no need or indeed point for it to even attempt to try and compete with the world of PCs & Macs as it never would be able to anyway, but then you never know stranger things have happened... :)
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Anyone remember the movie Brewsters Millions? Where a guy has to earn his inheretance by spending $millions and have nothing to show for it at the end of a week.
A next gen Amiga like the one described in OP wouldve done it for him.
Stick with what you have and be happy.
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I would think to keep it as a hobby, because we don't have the money to compete. It won't ever be the best OS again, but we should be able to have what Linux has in an Amiga wrap.
Amiga OS on a console sounds great only it would not be allowed by the console makers.
I think we should move forward on cheap hardware, at least we will get a bigger user base.
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Keep it on the hobby level, however, I dont think that much processing power is really needed.
My linux box is a pretty humble 2.4 ghz dual core, and 4 gigs of RAM, and I can't really imagine needing anything bigger than that.
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1. We need a new CPU, if it isn't remotely PPC compatible we have extra work to do but at the very least it has to be something like 3.2Ghz triple core 6 thread CPU by IBM sold to Microsoft for use in Xbox 360.
If you want to keep the Amiga alive as a niche-system, you will have to either rewrite the OS to a virtual machine that is popular enouch to remain widely unchanged for decades or use open source hardware that can be manufactured ad infimum. Everything else is but a temporary solution (see X1000 & MorphOS).
4. Massive investment/incentive to get Firefox or Chrome quality browser ported to our new OS as well as all CODECS for a media player and a conversion of Open Office to stick it to the Microsoft Office man.
Alternatively you could include WINE and just have native support plain HTML5, WebM and ODF.
5. All the above must be handled by ONE COMPANY, none of this tweedle dumb does minor OS updates and tweedle dee does some overpriced fantasy motherboard only using 1/2 cores of CPU to run that software.
I take it you have a grudge against the current state of AmigaOS4, but that won´t help. We will have ppl. working on Amiga when they have time, money and a passion about it. This is not about companies anymore. Your loyalty can be to an idea not a brand.
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I kind of get the feeling from this post and some other that if we cant create a machine as good as the A1000 was in 1985 in todays world we shouldn't even both trying.
I'm sorry but thats a very tall order, I mean most of us know just how far ahead of the competition Amiga was in hardware and software, as you pointed it out this is what the big console companies try to do and spend millions into trying to get something that way ahead of the competition but as ps3 and xbox 360 proves they dont really leap frog the computer industry to build something like that you would need to pretty much build what todays super computer are for the home, maybe if an Amiga user knew how to build a quantum computer we have a chance, anyone holding something back?.
I think hardware wise its just to difficult to be way ahead, offering something different that the competition cant do is I think a better solution, a bit like what Nintendo did with its wii remote, can that be done in hardware for computers, well we got Xmos, that will hopefully show us something that the competition couldn't easily do, and is there anything that PPC are much better at than x86? But software wise it easier to try and offer something different.
I think A-eon are doing what they can, they called the X1000 the most ambitious project, well is it ambitious enough, well I think it is the best we can hope for with money/investment and community support thats left. It might of been too ambitious because a project like this might even be to costly for the Amiga community to support, and thats a real shame.
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There is a very good reason why we can't do this: you can buy technology, sure, but you can't buy a userbase.
Even if you invented an amazing killer machine it'd go almost unnoticed and would be out of date a week later anyway.
The days of bespoke hardware for computers are long gone, that won't change because technological evolution is what pushes competition in the market. Take out the hardware progress and you decimate the revenue - makes no business sense.
Incidentally, the Xenon/Cell CPUs are not suitable for desktop use, they don't have basic things like branch prediction, so will be a lot slower than you'd expect running generic software.
Keep the Amiga as it is - a minority platform uncluttered by the monstrosities of DRM and protection systems - and enjoy it for that.
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Again (I love these threads which pop up once a month or so)... The thing that is always forgotten was that the Amiga wasn't really revolutionary for its time, rather it simply solved the technological issues of the day in a revolutionary and efficient way. If you were to make a "True"(tm) successor to the 1985 Amiga 1000, you would need to solve the technological problems of today.
Computing requirements now are almost fundamentally different to what they were 26 years ago, let us make a list of what a user needs from a computing device now;
1. Mobility
2. Connectivity
3. Compatibility
4. Usability
5. Low power consumption
If you work through those you will probably end up with something not unlike an iPad... Hopefully better, but fundamentally the same...
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OT i know , but Android has been ported to PPC hardware now
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What is with everyone wanting backward compatibility. It is this need that is stoping amiga from moving forward. It is expected that new hardware would require some form of software emulation in order to execute old software.
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Backwards compatibility = Catweasel +UAE. Not really a problem.
As OP points out, getting something as far ahead of top of the line PC on launch day just as 360 and PS3 hardware was (more 360 though unless you wanted Blu-Ray however) then yes it is billions in R&D before your first machine even sells.
I like NatAmi + PPC @ cost of original PS3 really (£399) if we got that then I'd be happy. Then again I'd be happy with X1000 @ equivalent top end i7 PC price of £700-800 too. Like OP says PPC is expensive but nobody can write for x86 as the hardware and software is split into different companies.
This is where Apple wins every time, the same company builds the spec'd motherboard, designs the cases, designs OS look and feel AND gets useful applications ported/developed for the machine.
I would be happy if Amiga was just in the hands of the same company for hardware and software and had some unique styling just as Apple does for Macs. Macs are expensive mind and Amiga would never sell well at this sort of price point.
But we would have a cohesive product and direction :)
Digiman the carpenter :roflmao: hit the nail on the head again!
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Computing requirements now are almost fundamentally different to what they were 26 years ago, let us make a list of what a user needs from a computing device now;
1. Mobility
2. Connectivity
3. Compatibility
4. Usability
5. Low power consumption
If you work through those you will probably end up with something not unlike an iPad... Hopefully better, but fundamentally the same...
Not everyone requires an amiga to have...
1. Mobility - Not Required
2. Connectivity - (To what, the net) Not Required
3. Compatibility - (Again to What, PC/Mac software) Not Required
4. Usability - Well a computer that's unusable would be pretty pointless
5. Low power consumption - (Plenty of electricity in my house) Not Required
Oh well 1 out of 5 is not bad... :lol:
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Not everyone requires an amiga to have...
1. Mobility - Not Required
2. Connectivity - (To what, the net) Not Required
3. Compatibility - (Again to What, PC/Mac software) Not Required
4. Usability - Well a computer that's unusable would be pretty pointless
5. Low power consumption - (Plenty of electricity in my house) Not Required
Oh well 1 out of 5 is not bad... :lol:
Then you don't want a "New Amiga", you just want an old Amiga with upgrades.
But I submit that you are far from a normal user (to be fair none of us here are normal users), that is why Apple sell millions of devices and Commodore is gone and all efforts to resurrect the "Amiga" have and will fail.
A nice related story:
When Steve Jobs returned to Apple after 10 years away, he was proudly ushered into a room at the Apple HQ filled will perfect condition examples of all products Apple had produced since the Apple I... He was apparently unimpressed and told the executive to give them all away to local museums... And demanded that Apple only look forward and never look back.
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As long as everybody's laying out their ideas now, I might as well join in.
First off, I reject the idea that the infeasibility of keeping up with modern PC hardware means that we should just give up and either move to PCs or stick to vanilla Commodore hardware plus whatever expansions can be scrounged off eBay from an ever-shrinking pool of unclaimed equipment. That's silly.
I similarily reject the idea that a new Amiga should be designed to "take back the market," as if that's something you can even do on purpose. Let the Amiga be the Amiga, and if you want to revolutionize the industry with a radical new concept, build your own machine.
Also rejected is the idea that developing new hardware on an old standard is impossibly costly and doomed to fail. (Here's looking at you, Wolftothemoon!) Not only is that a bizarrely blanket statement, it's completely unsupported by the evidence. Plenty of retrocomputing communities have built and supported significant hardware projects, not least the Amiga community. The idea that building a whole computer is somehow vastly more difficult or expensive than building expansions that replace nearly every part of it is patently absurd. It might not be cheap, but it's not going to cost an arm and a leg and the body of your closest kin.
So what should it be? I say 68k-based, mostly because I find the 68k to be just awesome. I don't care whether it's a real 68k chip, a reimplementation, or if we somehow get ColdFire to work, it should be 68k. (With room left in the design for all you PPC freaks to add an accelerator, of course ;))
It should also be based on the ECS or AGA hardware, because again, totally awesome. An Amiga you can't root around in and twiddle registers for crazy effects is not truly an Amiga, I say. It should be expanded, though, at the very least in the sound department, and adding a chunky video mode couldn't hurt.
Finally, it should include built-in hardware for some or all of the obligatory expansion cards (IDE controller, Ethernet, USB, fast RAM above the Zorro space, etc.) No sense having people need to hunt that stuff down on eBay.
As for software? Whatever you can run on it, baby!
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Then you don't want a "New Amiga", you just want an old Amiga with upgrades.
But I submit that you are far from a normal user (to be fair none of us here are normal users), that is why Apple sell millions of devices and Commodore is gone and all efforts to resurrect the "Amiga" have and will fail.
A nice related story:
When Steve Jobs returned to Apple after 10 years away, he was proudly ushered into a room at the Apple HQ filled will perfect condition examples of all products Apple had produced since the Apple I... He was apparently unimpressed and told the executive to give them all away to local museums... And demanded that Apple only look forward and never look back.
Reckon your bang on with that one... :)
Yup the way I like all things Amiga to be is way out of tune with the vast majority I reckon, but so are most of my viewpoints on most things on this crazy planet... :)
However back on my home planet I'm considered as normal... ;)
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Here's my idea for a new Amiga:
Drop the hardware discussions, that is the past
A OS that supports many different types of hardware
A OS that is open source like Linux and freely distributable
A OS that is super lightweight, fast and efficient. The same OS (trimmed down from the desktop version) can be installed on mobile devices.
Support through emulation for classic Amiga software
Support through emulation for MAC and Windows software
I believe with the above, Amiga could have a future again.
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Here's my idea for a new Amiga:
Drop the hardware discussions, that is the past
A OS that supports many different types of hardware
A OS that is open source like Linux and freely distributable
A OS that is super lightweight, fast and efficient. The same OS (trimmed down from the desktop version) can be installed on mobile devices.
Support through emulation for classic Amiga software
Support through emulation for MAC and Windows software
I believe with the above, Amiga could have a future again.
Congratulations, you just invented AROS.:idea:
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Hi,
@Digiman,
Somehow I get the feeling that this is the millionth time that we went through this, and we still come up with 20002 answers, if you take notice that is exactly 15002 more people that are on Amiga org. Some people are cheating and giving multiple answers.
somebody please come and put me out of my misery.
smerf
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... I used to be a true hardcore Amiga fan, until the reality of the computer world slapped me on my ass....
The Amiga is meant to stay in the past and for us to just enjoy for what it used to be. It is almost like trying to throw new hardware to the Commodore 64 and trying to compete with today's computers. People make newer pieces of hardware for the Amiga and Commodore 64 computers to just make it easier as far as moving files to one place to another (I thank the XM1541 cable on backing up all my old C64 disks.)
No new OS, no new hardware, no new anything. It is basically a joke to try to compete with today's computing world. So what if we weren't trying to compete with "PC" and "Mac", why put in all the effort to just improving on old designs. For its time, it was great, but Commodore went bankrupt for a reason. Want backward's compatibility? Fire up Win UAE or some form of an emulator. Its basically like the slim PS3s, took out backwards compatiblity because it isn't necessary.
Either way, I am not here to get burned on or poke at something I said. I am basically stating what was on my mind.
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but Commodore went bankrupt for a reason. Want backward's compatibility? Fire up Win UAE or some form of an emulator. Its basically like the slim PS3s, took out backwards compatiblity because it isn't necessary.
Either way, I am not here to get burned on or poke at something I said. I am basically stating what was on my mind.
Poke... Poke... Reason = Medhi Ali... :madashell:
(drat me matches are wet... :()
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Poke... Poke... Reason = Medhi Ali... :madashell:
(drat me matches are wet... :()
Then that means Commodore went bankrupt because of it having the wrong people. Doesn't matter now, its history.
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Then that means Commodore went bankrupt because of it having the wrong people. Doesn't matter now, its history.
Tell that to the English, cos every four years they never shut up about how they won the world cup in 1966... :furious:
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Tell that to the English, cos every four years they never shut up about how they won the world cup in 1966... :furious:
Everyone knows Scotland is really a part of England anyway.
Britain? No such thing :hammer:
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Everyone knows Scotland is really a part of England anyway.
Britain? No such thing :hammer:
yah wee jobbie wheech ye, rats ra ultimate insult tae any ginger heeded beardy wearin Scotsman... :madashell: :flak: :pissed:
awa n bile yer heed ya upside doon pooh bear shaggin hauf sassenach ye... :swords:
(PS: I agree on the Britain thing though... :))
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Everyone knows Scotland is really a part of England anyway.
Britain? No such thing :hammer:
Hi,
I always thought that Scotland was a city in Ireland.
smerf
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Hi,
I always thought that Scotland was a city in Ireland.
smerf
It is? I was not aware of that. So now we can add half breeding to the list :hammer:
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Frankos slipping. It's only 4.00am in Scotireland and he still hasn't replied :hammer:
While he's not replying i will further make efforts to insult him. Ready?
I was wrong that the Scottish are really all Englishmen. For a start the English don't marry their cousins or their pets :knuddel:
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why put in all the effort to just improving on old designs.
Maybe because we can and it is a lot of fun ?
greets,
Staf.