Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: redrumloa on February 02, 2011, 09:58:33 PM
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First off, this poll is not meant to ruffle any feathers. I am simply curious the consensus in 2011 of Amiga.org users. The aim is for users to pick ONE option as if you forced to pick only one. Sadly, there is no pancakes option.
This poll may be discussed, but moderation may be with a heavy hand if debate gets personal or outright nasty. Also keep in mind I am not looking for what you think is the most viable platform, but rather the one that is the most interesting and viable for YOU.
I am excluding Commodore USA products as they are not released, there is nothing to form a full opinion on yet. Be polite and enjoy!
The poll will last for 30 days.
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Voted AROS...
Why? Because it's the most viable option for fun hobby. I can't wait for AROS68K to become usable, I'm upgrading to A1200/A4000... :)
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Classic for the moment, but I'll be keeping an eye on AROS68k, and I'm definitely looking forward to NatAmi, when it finally comes out...
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hi
can I vote five times as I have five classic Amiga
hehehe
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Voted Classic but I really do have high hopes for the NatAmi... :)
(Would have been better if it was a multi choice poll... :))
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I voted AmigaOS 4 without any reason at all.
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Voted Classic but I really do have high hopes for the NatAmi... :)
(Would have been better if it was a multi choice poll... :))
NatAmi is not out yet, so it stays out of the poll like Commodore USA's products.
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Although it's 'classic' right now, I will be revisiting MorphOS in the near future. Not so interested in AROS as I'd rather not have to maintain or look at *that* kind of hardware in the house. :lol:
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Classic every day. Possibly add MorphOS as well, we'll see.
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Voted classic.
MorphOS is second on my list because it's the best nextgen option and I've used it for 7 years and liked it very much (if it weren't for the license I would still be using it). I don't care about the other options.
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I picked "other minimig etc" because the minimig, fpgaarcade, and natami most interest me. The Replay board, especially, since it would give me an AGA machine as well as an FPGA development platform.
Most of the time I use UAE now, and I would really like to see it running transparently under AROS on generic hardware.
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I voted Aros because of commodity hardware.
I wish classic had new hardware.
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Obvious vote is obvious. ;)
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Obvious vote is obvious. ;)
Must've been Classic... :lol:
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I chose Classic, but all flavors of Amiga are of interest.
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Had to think about this one for a while.
At first I was tempted to put down Minimig, but in truth I suspect the long term future of the platform will likely be virtual, which is why I picked UAE.
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Depends what is meant by viable. I'm currently building a new classic AGA machine but that doesn't mean I consider it a viable platform, it's just the only one I'm really interested in.
I was getting interested in OS4 after Hyperion won their long running legal last year but since that time its opportunity to become a viable platform has been waning (along with my interest).
Although MorphOS looks very nice, I don't think it will ever become viable as a PPC based OS running on second-hand HW and a move to x86 will be very costly and will therefore probably never happen.
Obviously UAE (eg emulated Classic OS 3.x including FPGA reproductions) will be around for a long time and will probably end up out lasting the next gen boys ;)
The classic market is actually doing 'ok' with enough new interesting HW and software getting released or being updated to take advantage of the new HW.
I think AROS is the only one which really stands a chance to considerably grow its user-base and become a (somewhat) viable computer platform (as in 1% market share at best).
The trouble that all of these Amiga like operating systems face is that the computer world is constantly moving forward and by the time AROS gets to same level of performance/stability/usability as UBUNTU today (which might take another 5 years at this rate), we’ll all be using Cloud based OS’s like Google Chrome OS (http:// http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome_OS)
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Voted AmigaOS 4
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I think it says a lot the Classic is currently leading this poll ;)
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I own only classics, but I voted morphOS as it seems the only modern Amiga OS I can touch with my money, and cos I like butterflies :lol:
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AROS on my x86/x86-64 hardware and AROS on UAE... And possibly AROS on a Replay/MiniMig clone if AGA is available.
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This was a difficult one for me to vote on. In the end I chose Aros and here is my logic (or lack there of)...
I really love the Classic machines and have a home full of the stuff to prove it. The fact is though that the world is marching on and my classic hardware and software is less and less capable in many ways when compared to what is here today and what is coming in the future. Having said that, I still almost voted for classic on the basis that I'm hopeful that Aros68K might give the opportunity to do some of the things many of us have longed to be able to do with our classic systems.
In the end I voted Aros, because I find myself traveling fairly often and it's just too difficult to cart along a classic system (No thanks to airline baggage fees). With Aros I can carry my laptop anywhere in the world and still have that special Amiga experience.
Now in all fairness, I also carry WinUAE with me and I'm quite happy with my experiences with that.
I don't have any experience with it, but I think MorphOS is something that I could gravitate towards quite easily. It looks nice, seems well thought out, has a good selection of features and some very knowledgeable people behind it. Problem is that for some reason, I just can't bring myself to plunk down money for MorphOS and the hardware needed to run it.
On the hardware options, fact is I'm a hardware guy. I enjoy working with computers, hardware and software. I enjoy designing and building projects both for my work and home. However, It is really difficult for me to see many "justifiable" reasons for getting on-board with many of the NG hardware projects because they are all too obscure in their own way. I'm not saying I oppose these projects and in fact I would encourage them. They are great fun for the developers and the communities that form around them. I'm just saying that most are little more than a hobby and will never bring to fruition what more so "mainstream" hardware has and can. I guess I'd prefer to make the wheel better, rather than reinventing it.
Regards,
AmigaEd
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I voted minimig / other as I'm quite interested in the replay.
Long term I'm inclined to agree that it's UEA but people also like hardware.
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voted classic, though use winuae if need be, and most dedicated to aros68k atm. 68k all along.
edit:see natami and fpga arcade (if it gains fast enough softcore) as future option.
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Voted Other as Natami and reply will be the way to go, but having said that and having a few classic i like classic and love to play around with them. Also I like WinUae (multiple choice) :D
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This was a difficult one for me to vote on. In the end I chose Aros and here is my logic (or lack there of)...
I really love the Classic machines and have a home full of the stuff to prove it. The fact is though that the world is marching on and my classic hardware and software is less and less capable in many ways when compared to what is here today and what is coming in the future. Having said that, I still almost voted for classic on the basis that I'm hopeful that Aros68K might give the opportunity to do some of the things many of us have longed to be able to do with our classic systems.
In the end I voted Aros, because I find myself traveling fairly often and it's just too difficult to cart along a classic system (No thanks to airline baggage fees). With Aros I can carry my laptop anywhere in the world and still have that special Amiga experience.
Now in all fairness, I also carry WinUAE with me and I'm quite happy with my experiences with that.
I don't have any experience with it, but I think MorphOS is something that I could gravitate towards quite easily. It looks nice, seems well thought out, has a good selection of features and some very knowledgeable people behind it. Problem is that for some reason, I just can't bring myself to plunk down money for MorphOS and the hardware needed to run it.
On the hardware options, fact is I'm a hardware guy. I enjoy working with computers, hardware and software. I enjoy designing and building projects both for my work and home. However, It is really difficult for me to see many "justifiable" reasons for getting on-board with many of the NG hardware projects because they are all too obscure in their own way. I'm not saying I oppose these projects and in fact I would encourage them. They are great fun for the developers and the communities that form around them. I'm just saying that most are little more than a hobby and will never bring to fruition what more so "mainstream" hardware has and can. I guess I'd prefer to make the wheel better, rather than reinventing it.
Regards,
AmigaEd
geeze Ed you stole my whole freaking post!
in other words +1
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geeze Ed you stole my whole freaking post!
in other words +1
LoL... I never did know when to shut up!:roflmao:
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Voted classic as that's what I'm concentrating on at the moment. I have two silent upgrade Mac Mini's, one of which has dual boot OSX and MOS (which I have not really done anything with yet). I'm really looking forward the ACA520. Also really looking forward to a possible new PPC accelerator to run OS4.x on classic. BTW, just got my MiniMegi and Indivision ECS installed in the A500 (did the 2MB chip mod to add the trap door 512MB to chip mem). The A1200 still needs lots of attention too! Alot of aspirations for a guy that has no time! HeHe.
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Currently I use classic Amiga and MorphOS in near-equal parts. For my purposes I voted MorphOS, as IMO it's a good balance of 'modern' OS features blended with 'legacy' feel and compatibilty. If it was about future potential though, I'd think AROS by its nature would be most likely of the bunch to rise above "one of the Amiga-style OSes" to "alternative OS" on a larger stage.
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I voted for AmigaOS4 because I have already 'bought in' and have been comfortable with the OS and my Sam for a couple of years now.
Long term depends on if/when any new core features arrive (SMP, memory protection and whatnot). If the platform doesn't advance I think the most viable choice in the long term is AROS.
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I voted (win)UAE - because if I absolutely positively had to do something Amiga based these days it would likely be an emergency and thus require the immediacy of setting up WinUAE versus spending days tracking down old hardware of questionable reliability. Further, anything I could do on a "real" Amiga I could do faster (rendering, compiling, copying, playing back, etc.) under WinUAE with JIT enabled. Chipset-banging compatibility is of minimal concern, as I'd only do it for productivity (animation/video project, etc.).
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I am currently interested in the Classic 68k line right now. But I know it has very little future viability. No matter how I love it, hardware is getting flakier each day that passes by, and not getting any faster to meet most future or even actual computing tasks.
In the immediate future I think that the fpgaarcade will give a lot to talk and play about.
I believe that MOS and OS4 will continue progressing until they hit the wall with the PPC desktop architecture, and are doomed to extinction at that point, unless they entirely redesign themselves, which given the resources they have, seems unlikely to happen.
In a much more distant future, I see AROS as the only viable alternative, as all others will probably remain as part of an exercise in software/hardware archeology, for not being able to keep up with the quick pace of the current technlogical progress, and become each day more outdated and unbearable to newcomers (Oldfarts like us, that bare with those inconviniences, will eventually die).
I voted AROS, as it is the one I believe has chances to prevail in the long run due to the fact that it is open and portable, which means it is not tied to bad business desitions or any specific hardware or vendor, which to my view makes it particularly interesting.
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I believe AROS is the most viable.
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Depends what is meant by viable.
--snippage--
Obviously UAE will be around for a long time and will probably end up out lasting the next gen boys ;)
That's what I mean.
Although I would like to see things like the fpga reproduction stuff continue I just think that amiga as software is likely to be around longer. Although I'll definitely concede the point about people liking real hardware.
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I voted ""Classic" as I currently don't have NG Amiga hardware.
On my Amiga 4000 PPC I have an "experimental" OS 4.0 classic setup besides my OS 3.9 main system.
"Experimental" because OS 4.0 classic is not usable as main system on my machine, as it lacks USB 2.0 support and does not support my NIC - so no internet connection.
While the internet connectivity issue could easily be solved by getting a suitable NIC from e-bay, the missing USB 2.0 highspeed support is a show stopper for me.
I would really like to get an A1 X1k and play around with the Xena chip(s) - but working USB 2.0 highspeed is a must for me. Furthermore I would really appreciate if MOS ran on this box as well.
Or at least that OS 4.x ran on one of the MOS Macs as well as MOS.
I would really love to be able to compare both OSses on the same hardware.
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I voted other because there was no "All of them" option. They are all viable to me.
Viable = feasible or capable of being done.
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For me as a Gamer the Minimig core seems like the future. My 4MB Minimig with ARM addon board allows me to play all my favourite A500 games either from ADF images or using a WHDLoad install on its hard file and just works and gives me support for using a modern monitor while freeing me from using my failing floppy disks and classic Amiga hardware.
Sadly I can no longer say the same thing for my Classic Amiga's that all seem to be showing their age with failing hardware lately.
Thats not so say my classics cant be fixed I am sure a skilled tech could replace the failed caps and get my sound back on my wedge and A1200 tower. I just dont have the to keep swapping out old parts as they fail to have the same think happen 6 Months later again.
WinUAE, AROS, OS4 and MorphOS also all have their place and I am also a happy Sam440ep owner used manly for running the non games software I used to run on my BlizzardPPC A1200 Tower and use WinUAE quite a bit testing and transfering software and games on to my Minimig.
I even see a place for AROS in the Amiga's future thanks to AROS-m68k and look forward to running it on my Minimig or maybe a FPGA Replay board sometime in the future.
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I didn't vote because I believe it is a combination of a lot of the above. Amiga classic, Amiga OS 4, AROS and MorpOS. Combine all of the elements into a open source, freely distributable OS (like Linux) and I think you'll have a future. Keep things business as usual and Amiga OS will have no future.
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...
we’ll all be using Cloud based OS’s like Google Chrome OS (http:// http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome_OS)
If cloud computing became the only computing platform in the future, I would drop computing as a hobby entirely and focus on driving steam locomotives (http://www.loewendampf.de/) instead.
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It's quite obvious I voted for AROS. Mainly for two reasons:
1) it will be available also on classic the classic Amiga architecture, being it real or emulated or reimplemented
2) the efforts to make it reach complete M68K's binary compatibility will positively influence also other ports, whose support for the original Amiga API will improve
In the end, it will be "Amiga redone from scratch", it will be free, and it will work on a wiiiiiide range of hardware platforms, from PPC to x86 through ARM and others.
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Voted for AmigaOS 4 because it is the only option that have new hardware developed for it.
One of the fun things about the Amiga is to toy with not off the shelf hardware, isn't it?
The classic had Minimig, but recently the Natami project seems on slowdown. So, only option is AmigaOS 4 if you love to tinker with exotic hardware.
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I don't see a solution that loads actual Amiga floppy disks directly except classic and they're way too expensive for PPC cards + Zorro 2/3 machine so none are viable for me.
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Voted for AmigaOS 4 because it is the only option that have new hardware developed for it.
One of the fun things about the Amiga is to toy with not off the shelf hardware, isn't it?
The classic had Minimig, but recently the Natami project seems on slowdown. So, only option is AmigaOS 4 if you love to tinker with exotic hardware.
Nothing exotic about the new Amigas , no custom chips, dont udnerstand
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my sig says it all;)
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Voted for AmigaOS 4 because it is the only option that have new hardware developed for it.
One of the fun things about the Amiga is to toy with not off the shelf hardware, isn't it?
The classic had Minimig, but recently the Natami project seems on slowdown. So, only option is AmigaOS 4 if you love to tinker with exotic hardware.
pci/pci-express/usb/ddr2 sdram/sata/etc. It's far from exotic and is off the shelf hardware apart from the cpu, which isnt exactly tinker-able. Also, AROS has new systems developed for it too.
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My biggest interest is in classics, but I voted AROS as it's the only system that potentially has the raw grunt to contend with anything the modern world can throw at it. There's already cases where its raw speed make it the only option (1080p video, fast emulation (things like uae, dosbox, etc. simply cant be touched compared to the speed available to aros on other amiga options)).
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None of the above but I picked "other" (I think I did anyways) as the default pancake choice. I was tempted in choosing UAE but outside of one or two games, I can't figure out what else I would really want to run on it. But I can finally see why the 7 million former Amiga owners never came back.
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None of the above but I picked "other" (I think I did anyways) as the default pancake choice. I was tempted in choosing UAE but outside of one or two games, I can't figure out what else I would really want to run on it. But I can finally see why the 7 million former Amiga owners never came back.
Very curious as to what it is makes you think these "7 million former Amiga owners never came back"...
(PS: how did you arrive at that figure and how do you know they "never came back"... did you know them personally... :))
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None of the above but I picked "other" (I think I did anyways) as the default pancake choice. I was tempted in choosing UAE but outside of one or two games, I can't figure out what else I would really want to run on it. But I can finally see why the 7 million former Amiga owners never came back.
I've bitten my tongue for far too long, but I finally have to ask,.... why do you still hang around when you do nothing but bitch and moan and antagonise? Is that your interest in "amiga", to simply annoy people who enjoy thier hobbies ?
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Very curious as to what it is makes you think these "7 million former Amiga owners never came back"...
(PS: how did you arrive at that figure and how do you know they "never came back"... did you know them personally... :))
7 Million figure was from Dr. Kittle (C= Germany) on TeamONE ML years ago which he broke down production by the different Amiga series. I would be completely shocked to learn if there were more then 20,000 active Amiga users world wide and wouldn't be surprised if it was under 10,000 and declining. Had any of the different Amigaoid OSs (and or hardware) made a difference to those former 7M users, the Amiga community today would be on a much different footing with that type of money being spent. So the current AmigaOID OSs are not doing it, the community should be huge by now (after 10+ years) if there was the slightest bit of a chance to attract a small portion of those 7 million former users back to our community.
Randy
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7 Million figure was from Dr. Kittle (C= Germany) on TeamONE ML years ago which he broke down production by the different Amiga series. I would be completely shocked to learn if there were more then 20,000 active Amiga users world wide and wouldn't be surprised if it was under 10,000 and declining. Had any of the different Amigaoid OSs (and or hardware) made a difference to those former 7M users, the Amiga community today would be on a much different footing with that type of money being spent. So the current AmigaOID OSs are not doing it, the community should be huge by now (after 10+ years) if there was the slightest bit of a chance to attract a small portion of those 7 million former users back to our community.
Randy
Interesting. What did you expect though? People to stop using computers completely because Commodore tanked in 1994?
The truth is millions of Amiga users have a PC or Mac and can see it for the inferior design ethos it is and only use it as a means to an end or for work. Doesn't mean 6,990,000 ex Amiga users like those machines at all.
Amiga was an elegant solution in all areas, this is missing today but as walking into PC World only offers you two 'affordable' solutions what are we supposed to do? Not use a computer at all or bid up the last handfull of PPC cards on ebay up to $10,000 :roflmao:
Sadly it is exactly these kind of people C= USA is trying to con into buying their crap pretending they are somehow Amiga
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Classic FTW :)
But I would rather see Natami with OS4.1 classic.
SOLD!!! :roflmao:
Not use a computer at all or bid up the last handfull of PPC cards on ebay up to $10,000 :roflmao:
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I've bitten my tongue for far too long, but I finally have to ask,....
Try Seroquel.
why do you still hang around when you do nothing but bitch and moan and antagonise? Is that your interest in "amiga", to simply annoy people who enjoy thier hobbies ?
I plan to buy a new Amiga this year. You?
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@ Dammy
Fair enough about the 7 Million figure I wont dispute that (as I can't be bothered checking)... :)
But as for how many active users there still are, no-one can put a figure on that or even supply a reasonable guess as to how many active users may still be out there... :)
Take me for example, been using nothing but Amigas since 86. In all that time until June last year I'd never been on the net let alone a member of a forum. So the way I see it I would be very surprised if I as the only one who had gone all this time without being on the net or joining a forum.
So if folk are basing their guesses at the amount of active Amiga users just by how many folk use the various forums or appear to be on the net, then it would seem to me these figures would be way out and be totally pointless in using them to claim that there are only X amount of active Amiga users left... :)
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Interesting. What did you expect though? People to stop using computers completely because Commodore tanked in 1994?
I only used an Amiga until I bought a x86 in 99 or so. I agree, today only a small minority only have an Amiga and no other PC. That does explain what happened to those 7 million users and now probably under 10,000 active Amiga users.
The truth is millions of Amiga users have a PC or Mac and can see it for the inferior design ethos it is and only use it as a means to an end or for work. Doesn't mean 6,990,000 ex Amiga users like those machines at all.
By that mentality, if OS4/MOS/AROS hasn't been able to gain traction with those former Amiga owner which are now using the "inferior" M$/Apple OS, that can only mean they think OS4/MOS/AROS are worse then Windows and OS-X. That sounds like a pretty harsh rebuking to me but if it works for you.
Amiga was an elegant solution in all areas, this is missing today but as walking into PC World only offers you two 'affordable' solutions what are we supposed to do? Not use a computer at all or bid up the last handfull of PPC cards on ebay up to $10,000 :roflmao:
Amiga was good, but what made it good also was a load stone around it's neck, the custom chipsets which couldn't be updated to keep up with the rest of the world.
Sadly it is exactly these kind of people C= USA is trying to con into buying their crap pretending they are somehow Amiga
First of all, they have the Amiga name licensed to them so it is an Amiga. Just like Eyetech's horrid Teron mobos rebadged as AmigaOnes, it's a license product sanctioned by AI, get over it already.
Second, since you are claiming C=USA are conning people, what URL do you offer as proof C=USA actively doing this? Or is this another smear and run post? And no, feedback from confused or ignorant third party does not count.
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+100
There seems to be quite a few folks here that come to just moan & complain that don't actually use Amiga's...
I've bitten my tongue for far too long, but I finally have to ask,.... why do you still hang around when you do nothing but bitch and moan and antagonise? Is that your interest in "amiga", to simply annoy people who enjoy thier hobbies ?
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+100
there seems to be quite a few folks here that come to just moan & complain that don't actually use amiga's...
+ 7,000,000 :)
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OS4/MOS/AROS are worse then Windows and OS-X
Dammy likes to confuse then and than. I wonder if he also confused dummy with dammy?
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Try Seroquel.
I plan to buy a new Amiga this year. You?
Ah, yes, the recently (ie. about 6 months ago at best) announced, yet to be released "Amiga's" that people know next to nothing about yet. Funny thing is though you've been bitching/moaning in one way or another for many years. Your interest in C-USA seems to be little more than another way to antagonise, but this time with something new to put into you itinerary. Must be exciting times for you.
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dammy: lol @ defending C=USA nobjokeys selling rubbish chinky PC + Linux + UAE and somehow deciding it's an Amiga. My Dell XPS with XP+WinUAE is Amiga too and so is a Sony PSP + Amiga emulator then :roflmao: what next, my washing machine with 14mhz 68EC020 Amiga? :confused:
Amiga Inc are crooks anyway, perfect partnership, and Amiga Inc don'town Commodore name :)
And even 99% of the 12 million Amiga purchasers won't buy AmigaONE x1000 or SAM to run OS4 with stupidly expensive PPC boards. If you hate Mac you won't be using MOSand AROS is free so ho knows how many downloads arein use.
As for custom chips being the thing holding back Amiga....Commodore were well on the way to RTG and you need a fast Pentium PC in 1996 to play Super Stardust like a £299 A1200. And A4000/040 users bought 24bit cards.
CPU PERFORMANCE/PRICE killed Amiga well before PC could do a carbon copy of 1989 Shadow of the Beast without dropping a single frame.....6-7 yrs with same 7mhz chip was a joke but 25mhz 486SX owners were playing Actua Soccer in texture mapped 3D or Doom for half the cost of pathetic A4000/030 white elephant of an overpriced kludge in 1994 ;)
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+100
there seems to be quite a few folks here that come to just moan & complain that don't actually use amiga's...
+ 7,000,000 :)
+ 2^128
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Ah, yes, the recently (ie. about 6 months ago at best) announced, yet to be released "Amiga's" that people know next to nothing about yet. Funny thing is though you've been bitching/moaning in one way or another for many years. Your interest in C-USA seems to be little more than another way to antagonise, but this time with something new to put into you itinerary. Must be exciting times for you.
Actually, this is the quiet before the storm.
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sorry for the book, but this seems to be turning into a popularity contest rather than an objective look at platforms, I don't claim true objectivity, but here I think is my most rational and objective look at the subject:
vi·a·ble (v-bl) adj.
1. Capable of living, developing, or germinating under favorable conditions.
2. Capable of living outside the uterus. Used of a fetus or newborn.
3. Capable of success or continuing effectiveness; practicable: a viable plan; a viable national economy.
When we talk about a viable platform we are talking about three things I think. Is it developing currently. Can it continue under current conditions indefinitely. And can it fullfill it's purpose capably.
As good as classic was, and I do like it alot, it is seeing some limited current development, it can fullfill its purpose but really only with legacy apps, but it cannot continue indefinitely. We can fix buggy capacitors etc. for only so long...the hardware is dying.
Minimig is a fantasic design that remedies much of the classics drawbacks but isn't really a platform as such, as it is not in any kind of active production, and is not forward looking (I would love it if a company started building minimigs in a600 clone cases)
OS4 is seeing some development in both hardware and software, but the hardware is highly specialized, difficult to find, and very difficult to replace or repair. It is a niche even within Amiga communities, and cannot continue indefinitely due to the limited runs and market penetration of our small community.
The same unfortunately can be said of Morphos, and other custom designs such as Natami. Too expensive, too rare etc.
UAE is a great bit for software that has kept many of us using amigaos and software, but is just that, software, it isn't really a platform unless you consider some livecd type implementations, but noone is really doing that much.
Which leads us to Aros. Many of you know I favor Aros and have said so numerous times, and with reason I think. Aros is under current, significant, development. The software is developed by the Aros team, and literally billions of free (to us anyway) development dollars are pouring into hardware development by companies around the world. Don't like x86 and its memory addressing limitations, bang, 386 etc, fixing all those problems, dont like the limited registers etc. of pentiums, bang, here is 64 bit cpus with more registers. Don't like the limited backwards compatibility of '040 and '060 68k's...well sorry here is a patch. Don't like the expense, and feature shifts of PPC... sorry that sucks.
Aros also doesnt depend of the fickelness of AI, or strength or the Aros team. It has lasted for years with no license, through all the lawsuits and stupidity, and is open source so even if all the current developers were to be abducted by aliens to work on their os, development would continue. Not just on the core os but on the apps that are under development as well.
And its viability as a hardware platform is assured as it is not dependant on small expensive manufacturing runs. We can all try Aros since we all have or can very easily get x86 hardware. If you havent tried Aros, go to the Aros website are try a livecd.
We all have our favorites, we all have ideals, but when you get down to real longterm practicality Aros really is the best, most viable, option. I don't thing that Aros will take over the world, but there are reasons that Linux hasn't. It is too complex, the distros are too different, the community is too splintered. There is no reason Aros couldn't be what Linux tried to be, an alternative desktop os, that is simple, fast, capable, and free.
And that is the most viable amiga option for me Aros (with Uae)
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I picked Amiga classic because everything else I tried was retarded and pissed me off.
I also only use these things to play games so the rest of its features are useless to me.
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Sadly it is exactly these kind of people C= USA is trying to con into buying their crap pretending they are somehow Amiga
Con is quite a harsh term, isn't it?
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con /kɒn/
adjective, verb, conned, con·ning, noun Informal .
–adjective
1. involving abuse of confidence: a con trick.
–verb (used with object)
2. to swindle; trick: That crook conned me out of all my savings.
3. to persuade by deception, cajolery, etc.
–noun
4. a confidence game or swindle.
5. a lie, exaggeration, or glib self-serving talk: He had a dozen different cons for getting out of paying traffic tickets.
"Harsh," or "accurate," it's a matter of opinion.
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They're selling PC+Linux but claiming they are next gen Amiga and letting idiots believe they related to C= of old.
Decide for yourself I say to everyone :)
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@ Dammy
Fair enough about the 7 Million figure I wont dispute that (as I can't be bothered checking)... :)
But as for how many active users there still are, no-one can put a figure on that or even supply a reasonable guess as to how many active users may still be out there... :)
Take me for example, been using nothing but Amigas since 86. In all that time until June last year I'd never been on the net let alone a member of a forum. So the way I see it I would be very surprised if I as the only one who had gone all this time without being on the net or joining a forum.
So if folk are basing their guesses at the amount of active Amiga users just by how many folk use the various forums or appear to be on the net, then it would seem to me these figures would be way out and be totally pointless in using them to claim that there are only X amount of active Amiga users left... :)
Franko, you really believe that there are more out in the world like you? :roflmao: You are unique!
Okay, maybe there are another 50 to 100 Amiga users in the world that have never used a Windows, or MacOS or Linux computer and maybe there are 300 to 800 Amiga users that have never joined any Amiga forum site. Or if you want to be an unrealistic fanatic, say there are 1,000 to 2,000 such users (but I really doubt that). Bottom line is that the number of active Amiga users left in the world is just not a huge number of people in excess of 10,000. I personally would guess that the real number is closer to 6,000, but won't get into any argument trying to justify that number. They have mostly all moved on and left the Amiga behind and it only remains as a fond memory for 90% of the millions of Amiga users that once were exclusive users of only Amiga computers.
Basing a rough guess of how many remaining (active) Amiga users there are in the world on the activity on all the Amiga related forum sites IS a very accurate way to get close to the actual number of remaining active Amiga users. Thinking that there are thousands of Amiga users still out there that don't use the Internet, or that have never become members of any Amiga forum site is just unrealistic, wishful thinking.
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There are around 600 people using OS4 on their Sams (according to firmare update downloads) yet you don't see hardly that many posting on forums. I'm sure it's the same for other Amiga users, I personally know a whole bunch of guys online who won't even post on the forums anymore because of the trolls and fighting. I think the Amiga scene is a lot bigger than what we see on the forums, and any time I mention my Amiga hobby in some large IRC channel someone pops up and tells me about their old Amiga in the closet and how they've been wanting to set it up again some day. I wonder how many people keep their 486 in the closet for that rainy day in the future...
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I voted AmigaOS 4 without any reason at all.
You are so funny! Thanks for making me laugh today.
As for my post about number of users, I did not say all of them post on forums, I stated that most of them have become members of at least one Amiga related forum site at one time or another. Also, I was referring to ACTIVE Amiga users, not just anyone that owned one some time in the past, or has one in the closet.
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You are so funny! Thanks for making me laugh today.
As for my post about number of users, I did not say all of them post on forums, I stated that most of them have become members of at least one Amiga related forum site at one time or another. Also, I was referring to ACTIVE Amiga users, not just anyone that owned one some time in the past, or has one in the closet.
I'm not unique... there's two of me here... :)
Anyway you can't state (even though you just did) "most of them have become members of at least one Amiga related forum site at one time or another." as you have no way to prove it... :)
It's all just opinions and guesstimates, heck even Santa Claus doesn't know the answer and he delivered most of those lovely old miggies himself... :)
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There are around 600 people using OS4 on their Sams (according to firmare update downloads) yet you don't see hardly that many posting on forums. I'm sure it's the same for other Amiga users, I personally know a whole bunch of guys online who won't even post on the forums anymore because of the trolls and fighting. I think the Amiga scene is a lot bigger than what we see on the forums, and any time I mention my Amiga hobby in some large IRC channel someone pops up and tells me about their old Amiga in the closet and how they've been wanting to set it up again some day. I wonder how many people keep their 486 in the closet for that rainy day in the future...
well said Cammy and I can confirm that I know of many current amiga users that will only visit Amiga sites for current news but refuse to post here due to the constant trolling/flaming...sad but true
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They're selling PC+Linux but claiming they are next gen Amiga and letting idiots believe they related to C= of old.
Decide for yourself I say to everyone :)
They licensed the Commodore name therefore they are related to the C= of old. These apparently are former c64 or amiga users interested in selling Commodore branded computers. It's been done before, and unless they succeed it will be done again.
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They licensed the Commodore name therefore they are related to the C= of old.
...no. I don't care if you pay for a pre-existing name, receive it from a mysterious Dickensian benefactor, or make a wish on a friggin' genie's lamp - you don't just get to introduce something totally unrelated and claim it's the same thing. Legal, maybe, but sane/correct/ethical? No.
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...no. I don't care if you pay for a pre-existing name, receive it from a mysterious Dickensian benefactor, or make a wish on a friggin' genie's lamp - you don't just get to introduce something totally unrelated and claim it's the same thing. Legal, maybe, but sane/correct/ethical? No.
The Commodore of old DID sell pc clones, so it really is the same thing.
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The Commodore of old DID sell pc clones, so it really is the same thing.
They didn't call them "C64" or "Amiga."
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The Commodore of old DID sell pc clones, so it really is the same thing.
yep..stated this many times myself...and it really didnt help them at all back then. There was also Commdore gaming with their fancy molded commodore cases with pimped out PC's that was supposed to be the next genesis of Commodore so this CUSA thing is nothing new at all
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Other option for me - will get the FPGAArcade as soon as I can.
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They didn't call them "C64" or "Amiga."
I don't remember people this up in arms about the Commodore 64 Web.It, fPET, mPET, eVIC, d'Amiga and so many others:lol:
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@Dammy
7million sounds about right, but we have to remember that the vast majority of users in europe bought one as a games machine.
My brother, for example, just got into mod trackers on the PC. When I told him they started out on the Amiga, he was very surprised, I don't think he ever touched his A500 keyboard.
While there where a lot less users in the USA, I think they were more serious.
As for the custom chipset being doomed to fail....well powerVR, 3DFX, Radeon, Nvidia etc, all started out as 'custom' chips for the PC before going mainstream. If it had been updated, and if it had continued selling millions, i'm sure developing a custom chipset would still have been worth it.
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well said Cammy and I can confirm that I know of many current amiga users that will only visit Amiga sites for current news but refuse to post here due to the constant trolling/flaming...sad but true
I agree, there are many users that visit forum sites for news and do not post messages due to the constant trolling and flaming, but I think that most of those have at least registered as a member of at least one forum site and posted at least one or more messages over the years. The trolls and flaming has caused me to post much less often than I once did here.
And yes Franko, I know that it is all guess work and no one has the answer of how many active Amiga users are left in the world, but common sense and using rational thought to make estimates is the best way to make any kind of an estimate, when no other evidence is available, wouldn't you agree? Since there is no other evidence to suggest that there are thousands of unknown Amiga users above and beyond the few thousands that ARE active, or have at one time or another, signed up as members on any Amiga related forum site, it makes sense that an estimate be based on the only information we do have would be more accurate than any estimate based only on the number of original sales and a hunch about how many of those are still actively using their Amigas.
Since most computer users use the Internet to gather news or post comments about things they are interested in, most Amiga users would do the same and the number of active Amiga users that have at one time or another, signed up as members of an Amiga related forum site, is much greater than the number of active Amiga users that have not signed up as members of any Amiga related forum site. If that does not seem logical and reasonable to you, then I can't argue any further with you about how any estimate could be made.
If there are some other reasons, or evidence that anyone has to suggest that there are vast numbers of active Amiga users in excess of 10,000 worldwide, I would be glad to see such reasons or evidence, but to simply make claims that there are more users with no reasons or evidence makes no sense to me.
I am not trying to be negative, I wish there were 20,000 to 50,000 or more active Amiga users left and I also hope that we (what ever is left of the Amiga community) can slow or stop the decline of active Amiga users, or even start to increase the number of active users again some day.
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@Dammy
7million sounds about right, but we have to remember that the vast majority of users in europe bought one as a games machine.
My brother, for example, just got into mod trackers on the PC. When I told him they started out on the Amiga, he was very surprised, I don't think he ever touched his A500 keyboard.
While there where a lot less users in the USA, I think they were more serious.
As for the custom chipset being doomed to fail....well powerVR, 3DFX, Radeon, Nvidia etc, all started out as 'custom' chips for the PC before going mainstream. If it had been updated, and if it had continued selling millions, i'm sure developing a custom chipset would still have been worth it.
"custom chipset" has become a buzzword people like to toss out as part of some sort of explanation why the amiga died, that doesn't rely on Commodore being idiots.
PC graphics chips were "custom" chipsets just the same as the amiga's were.
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"custom chipset" has become a buzzword people like to toss out as part of some sort of explanation why the amiga died, that doesn't rely on Commodore being idiots.
PC graphics chips were "custom" chipsets just the same as the amiga's were.
It's perfectly true what dammy said... In 1992 and after there was no way in hell Commodore could have kept up with the PC world, mainly because of the entire board being a custom chipset. it was, sadly, even in 1992, a doomed concept(for a PC, gaming consoles to this day remain an entirely custom chipsets all along).
If they went the way of a 68000 based mobo + PC expansion cards, things would have probably turned out pretty differently(strictly performance-wise).
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It's perfectly true what dammy said... In 1992 and after there was no way in hell Commodore could have kept up with the PC world, mainly because of the entire board being a custom chipset. it was, sadly, even in 1992, a doomed concept(for a PC, gaming consoles to this day remain an entirely custom chipsets all along).
If they went the way of a 68000 based mobo + PC expansion cards, things would have probably turned out pretty differently(strictly performance-wise).
Not disputing that, but AGA and OCS etc are no more "custom" than a voodoo card or a sound blaster. The only difference is that IBM's were cloned and amiga's were not (until today, through FPGAs).
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"custom chipset"
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4097/4911535392_4c8d53c8f7_z.jpg)
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(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4097/4911535392_4c8d53c8f7_z.jpg)
Now that shit is custom :)
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"custom chipset" has become a buzzword people like to toss out as part of some sort of explanation why the amiga died, that doesn't rely on Commodore being idiots.
PC graphics chips were "custom" chipsets just the same as the amiga's were.
I agree that it was not the "custom chipsets" in the Amiga that doomed Commodore to bankruptcy. It was the continued mis-management of Commodore and the lack of vision and money put into development which was needed to keep the Amiga ahead of the competition. Plus the lack of marketing which should have educated the growing number of computer users about the advantages the Amiga had in the beginning over all other computers when the A1000 was released. The Amiga should never have been relegated to being just a "Games" computer and should have had development and research money spent on it to keep it faster and better than the PC's and Mac's. In short, Commodore should have competed with MS & Apple from day one when they had an advantage, but they instead wasted money trying to compete in the PC clone hardware market.
Although the AmigaOS was elegant and far ahead of all the competition in many ways for a long time, the degree of that lead over competitors was quickly diminished as the Amiga was stagnant or little improved between the release of the A1000 and the release of the A3000 and the improvements introduced with AGA and the A1200/A4000 was far too little, too late. Even the introduction of the A3000 and AmigaOS2.0 was a disappointment to most Amiga users, who saw it as too little, too late as well.
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@ amigadave
I know I get your point (and KThunders) about how folk estimate just how many active Amiga users may be still out there, but to me there is no point in guessing or wasting time trying to figure it out. It doesn't seem a worthwhile thing to do unless you need that info for your own use for example writting a new prog and wondering just how big a custom/user base you may have for it... :)
To me until last June when I finally went on the net, I didn't know if there were thousands left in the world or no one at all still using the Amiga and it wouldn't (and still doesn't) matter to me whatever the case may be... :)
If for some weird reason the internet was to suddenly end tomorrow, I could quite happily go back to being in the dark about all that's still going on in Amigaland. After the last Amiga magazines disappeared around 2000 - 2002 I didn't have a clue about what was going on with the Amiga and was blissfully unaware and not even bothered about it... :)
To me as long as I've got my Amigas, I'm perfectly happy, the internet and forums are just something to entertain me as I sit here doing useful and enjoyable things on my Amigas. My so called "Crusade" against CUSA is also part of that entertainment and at the end of the day means nothing to me other than a bit of fun here on the net and getting more folk chatting on the forums... :)
Other than when I'm helping out someone with an Amiga related problem then no-one should take any of my posts or mad rants seriously they are nothing more than passing the time and having a laugh to me and that's the way they should (I hope) be taken... :)
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I agree that it was not the "custom chipsets" in the Amiga that doomed Commodore to bankruptcy. It was the continued mis-management of Commodore and the lack of vision and money put into development which was needed to keep the Amiga ahead of the competition and lack of marketing which should have educated the growing number of computer users about the advantages the Amiga had in the beginning over all other computers when the A1000 was released.
Although the AmigaOS was elegant and far ahead of all the competition in many ways for a long time, the degree of that lead over competitors was quickly diminished as the Amiga was stagnant or little improved between the release of the A1000 and the release of the A3000 and the improvements introduced with AGA and the A1200/A4000 was far too little, too late. Even the introduction of the A3000 and AmigaOS2.0 was a disappointment to most Amiga users, who saw it as too little, too late as well.
We had some looong threads about AGA recently, but I must say, I think AGA would have okay if something else was on its way to replace it fairly shortly, if amiga's had been a bit beefier. If the 1200 had shipped with an 030 and even 2 megs of fast RAM, it'd have been a pretty respectable machine in 92, when the competition was still windows 3.1 and trying to do two things at once.
People talk about Doom a lot as the evidence AGA wasn't good enough, but I've had people independently of each other say my 030 runs it faster than their PC's did back in the day.
If only a partial upgrade was coming, I'd feel stronger about a new sound chip, than about the graphics part, to be honest.
Again, this is assuming Commodore actually had money and something else was coming fairly shortly to replace it and provide a bigger step up.
Maybe its time for another "how to make Commodore survive" speculation thread? :)
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(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4097/4911535392_4c8d53c8f7_z.jpg)
That's not custom, that's just a bunch of off-the-shelf parts, ya poser!
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Maybe its time for another "how to make Commodore survive" speculation thread? :)
Gawd NO... don't do that... :eek:
All you'll end up with is a million different opinions on which OS/Processor & even type of case they should use (there's plenty of that here already)...
Why not a thread on something different for a change, don't ask me what though cos I can't think of one right now but something that doesn't involve which OS is best and why or which type of processor to use, there are plenty of threads here doing that already... :)
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Gawd NO... don't do that... :eek:
All you'll end up with is a million different opinions on which OS/Processor & even type of case they should use (there's plenty of that here already)...
Why not a thread on something different for a change, don't ask me what though cos I can't think of one right now but something that doesn't involve which OS is best and why or which type of processor to use, there are plenty of threads here doing that already... :)
Too late! :)
I'll think of something more creative for the weekend. Today, Im enjoying turning 31... I think
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They licensed the Commodore name therefore they are related to the C= of old.
I want to buy out the Chevrolet name, and start selling tampons. They'll sell well, since all the Chevy enthusiasts will see the relation, right?
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Nah, use Pontiac, they gave up on that name! No competition from the "real" brand, then!
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I want to buy out the Chevrolet name, and start selling tampons. They'll sell well, since all the Chevy enthusiasts will see the relation, right?
You, sir, win.
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Too late! :)
I'll think of something more creative for the weekend. Today, Im enjoying turning 31... I think
Bugger.... :madashell:
Happy birthday by the way... :)
31 eh... your now on the long slippery slope, it's all downhill from here in four years time you'll be starting to get aches & pains in places you never knew you had places... :)
(Gawd... 31 can't remember that far back... :))
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There are around 600 people using OS4 on their Sams (according to firmare update downloads) yet you don't see hardly that many posting on forums. I'm sure it's the same for other Amiga users, I personally know a whole bunch of guys online who won't even post on the forums anymore because of the trolls and fighting. I think the Amiga scene is a lot bigger than what we see on the forums, and any time I mention my Amiga hobby in some large IRC channel someone pops up and tells me about their old Amiga in the closet and how they've been wanting to set it up again some day. I wonder how many people keep their 486 in the closet for that rainy day in the future...
I'd say that figure is roughly 2x as many individuals when you consider that some people have more than one Sam board and multiple downloads of files. As for the 486 thing, well that's probably a little redundant as they've probably got a different x86 machine theyre using now instead.
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Bugger.... :madashell:
Happy birthday by the way... :)
31 eh... your now on the long slippery slope, it's all downhill from here in four years time you'll be starting to get aches & pains in places you never knew you had places... :)
(Gawd... 31 can't remember that far back... :))
you should remember. It was the same year the romans invaded ;)
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... you don't just get to introduce something totally unrelated and claim it's the same thing. Legal, maybe, but sane/correct/ethical? No.
I'm pretty sure that nothing like this has ever happened in the world of business before...
Hmmm... I see you are in Minnesota... 3M
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you should remember. It was the same year the romans invaded ;)
The big crappers never got as far as Scotland they took one look and built Hadrian's wall to hide behind, while we just laughed and waved our bums at them... :)
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we just laughed and waved our bums at them... :)
:laughing: Lol... Now we know why they left!
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Too late! :)
I'll think of something more creative for the weekend. Today, Im enjoying turning 31... I think
You think you're turning 31, or you think you're enjoying it ? :) (rhetorical, silly question used mostly as a procrastination tactic :))
Damn, though wish I was 31 again :)
Anyway, happy birthday :)
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I'm pretty sure that nothing like this has ever happened in the world of business before...
Hmmm... I see you are in Minnesota... 3M
See, I'm not getting where this "it has happened before, therefore this is hunky-dory" logic is coming from. Sure it's happened before, but that doesn't make it okay - remember New Coke?
(Also, my only loyalty to 3M comes from their manufacturing one of the few really good brands of duct tape.)
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You think you're turning 31, or you think you're enjoying it ? :) (rhetorical, silly question used mostly as a procrastination tactic :))
Damn, though wish I was 31 again :)
Anyway, happy birthday :)
Im easily confused :)
Thanks!
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happy birthday runequester!
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I wonder how many people keep their 486 in the closet for that rainy day in the future...
/me waves IBM PS2 DX2 66 all SCSI and MCA architecture, built like a tank, makes an A2000 look soft :)
Edit: almost forgot my DX4 100 Thinkpad, it was my linux workstation for many years past its sell by date (I wouldn't want to drop it on my toe either)
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(Also, my only loyalty to 3M comes from their manufacturing one of the few really good brands of duct tape.)
Far be it for me to tell you what to like, but I'd much rather the, phoenetically almost identical, "duck tape". It gives much more entertaining visuals.
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Far be it for me to tell you what to like, but I'd much rather the, phoenetically almost identical, "duck tape". It gives much more entertaining visuals.
That's the other one :) 3M and Duck are the tapes of choice, most of the rest that I've used are pretty sub-par...
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I want to buy out the Chevrolet name, and start selling tampons. They'll sell well, since all the Chevy enthusiasts will see the relation, right?
Cars to tampons, really? Thats a pretty pitiful contrast. If you think that Commodore International is like cars and CUSA is like tampons there isn't enough help in the world for you. However I do recognize a strawman no matter how poorly implemented.
If you bought out the Pontiac name and started selling trucks or SUVs or something they would. Like I said the Commodore of old did sell pcs and CUSA wants to sell pcs.
The c64 has not been sold in decades neither has the amiga so if a company said they wanted to sell the c64 again the vast majority of people would not think 8bit. Even if they said they wanted to sell Amigas most people would not think 68k.
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The c64 has not been sold in decades neither has the amiga so if a company said they wanted to sell the c64 again the vast majority of people would not think 8bit. Even if they said they wanted to sell Amigas most people would not think 68k.
What "most people would think" has precisely nothing to do with how much an x86 PC in a slightly atypical case has to do with the Amiga.
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Its a computer. Most people wouldn't remember the c64 and buy it because it looks cool or whatever. If CUSA wants to sell and sell big it has to be more than to just us. They need a cool looking computer, with good support, a good website, and good advertising.
Nothing that we have right now except maybe for minimig has anything really to do with amiga, and has a good shot at the market. We can dream, but the guy at CUSA wants to do more.
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See, I'm not getting where this "it has happened before, therefore this is hunky-dory" logic is coming from. Sure it's happened before, but that doesn't make it okay - remember New Coke?
(Also, my only loyalty to 3M comes from their manufacturing one of the few really good brands of duct tape.)
It's not that it's O.K. as much as it is about the state of affairs. Nearly everything we see today is a re-spin of something that came before it. There are some who would (and did) claim that even your coveted classic Amiga was conceived by Atari. What about IBM PC Clones... even if you had just ignored them on the basis of them being "unethical", would anyone else. Would anyone else even care? Would the market for IBM PC clones have suffered? I suspect not.
Btw... I still seem to have a preference for 3M PostIt notes, but many of the clones are not bad either. Certainly not something that I'm going to be pious about.
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Some people seem to think it is their job to police the world for the long dead Commodore International, for copyright infringement, patent infringement and anything else they don't like. Defend our precious Amiga from anyone who would desicrate her!
The rest of the world doesn't care, and we cut off our nose to spite our face, and kill off any potential platform long pefore it has a chance to succeed.
Personally I am quite jaded with AI because I think they should have had an x86 OS4 years and years ago, but I don't wish them bad or anything. They got some money from me (presumably) for two copies of Amiga Forever.
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Some people seem to think it is their job to police the world for the long dead Commodore International, for copyright infringement, patent infringement and anything else they don't like. Defend our precious Amiga from anyone who would desicrate her!
The rest of the world doesn't care, and we cut off our nose to spite our face, and kill off any potential platform long pefore it has a chance to succeed.
Personally I am quite jaded with AI because I think they should have had an x86 OS4 years and years ago, but I don't wish them bad or anything. They got some money from me (presumably) for two copies of Amiga Forever.
For about the past half dozen posts you've made you keep mentioning what most people think (at least you think what most people think) are you some kind of psychic or mind reader... :)
And how do you know the rest of the world doesn't care, have you been round everyone on the planet and asked them... :)
You should go to Vegas and put on a show, "KThunder The Man Who Knows Your Every Thought"... :lol:
Bet you can't guess what I'm thinking right now... ;)
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For about the past half dozen posts you've made you keep mentioning what most people think (at least you think what most people think) are you some kind of psychic or mind reader... :)
And how do you know the rest of the world doesn't care, have you been round everyone on the planet and asked them... :)
You should go to Vegas and put on a show, "KThunder The Man Who Knows Your Every Thought"... :lol:
Bet you can't guess what I'm thinking right now... ;)
I wouldn't even hazard a guess with you franko :)
but since the vast majority of people use pcs, and commodore went under in '94 and most kids never even heard of the c64 I think I am right or at least close to it in many of my posts on this nonsense.
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Its a computer. Most people wouldn't remember the c64 and buy it because it looks cool or whatever.
Supposing that's true, it's still completely irrelevant. The popular perception has zilch to do with the issue of what the C-USA product have in common (or rather, don't) with the computers they're named after.
If CUSA wants to sell and sell big it has to be more than to just us. They need a cool looking computer, with good support, a good website, and good advertising.
And they're more than welcome to do that - I only want them to stop pretending their machines are something that they aren't. Were they not trying to sell their x86 machines under the names of classic computers they have zero to do with, I'd wish them well and continue on my merry way.
It's not that it's O.K. as much as it is about the state of affairs. Nearly everything we see today is a re-spin of something that came before it. There are some who would (and did) claim that even your coveted classic Amiga was conceived by Atari. What about IBM PC Clones... even if you had just ignored them on the basis of them being "unethical", would anyone else. Would anyone else even care?
But this isn't even a re-spin. It's a completely different machine on a completely different OS in a vaguely-reminiscent case. It only even approaches being a spin-off by the inclusion of an emulator, and that brings it as close to being an Amiga spin-off as...every other PC on the market.
As for PC clones, you will note that they are, in fact, clones. That is to say, their design is directly based on the PC and they maintain (with rare exception) significant to nearly-full compatibility with the PC standard as laid down with the IBM 5150 (to a ridiculous extent, really.) I'm not going to say that the intentions of Compaq et. al were noble, but at the very least they weren't introducing completely unrelated systems and slapping something else's label on them.
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I voted Classic, because that's what I use almost every day. As soon as I get a new Catweazle card for the Windows machine, this may change...
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Cars to tampons, really? Thats a pretty pitiful contrast. If you think that Commodore International is like cars and CUSA is like tampons there isn't enough help in the world for you. However I do recognize a strawman no matter how poorly implemented.
.
Well, its about the same relation really.
Commodore 64/stuff = Pretty fun, useful, popular, unique.
New Commodore = Run of the mill bullshit, the same as every other new PC just with a different package.
Chevys: Fun, useful, popular, unique!
Tampons: Run of the mill bullshit. Same as every other tampon just with a different package.
:roflmao:
That part about "there isnt enough help in the world for you" was cute though.
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Hi,
I chose UAE basically because I would rather use UAE than my Classic Amiga's.
WHY???
Because if one of my Classic Amiga's went bad it would truly be like losing a good friend.
SOOOO
I use UAE most of the time, it runs most of what I want to run well and I don't have to worry about what settings or degrades I have to use to make a program work and the added plus is that I don't have to worry about burning up hardware. PC if they burn up are very replaceable at a cheap price.
I just wish they would bring out a new Amiga with all the same qualities as the old but with a newer faster processor and a newer faster more colorful graphics card.
PC's are just that PRETTY CHEAP.
smerf
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...
it's a license product sanctioned by AI,
...
Who is AI?
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The Commodore of old DID sell pc clones, so it really is the same thing.
But they didn't call them "C64" or "Amiga" - they called them what they really were: Commodore 386/486 PCs...
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But they didn't call them "C64" or "Amiga" - they called them what they really were: Commodore 386/486 PCs...
Old KThunder doesn't see things clearly like most (I think), he just likes to say what he thinks people think without thinking about it, don't you KT... ;)
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But they didn't call them "C64" or "Amiga" - they called them what they really were: Commodore 386/486 PCs...
Guess what, they are calling it C64x and Amigax and people can not be confused if they read the product info which clearly states it's a PC with dual core Atom (Amiga info hasn't been released yet).
This is the next generation series, if you don't like it being x86, that's just going to be too bad for you. Well, there maybe ARM versions, if that would make you any happier. ;)
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But they didn't call them "C64" or "Amiga" - they called them what they really were: Commodore 386/486 PCs...
Commodore 64 Web.It
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Classic Amiga for me please.
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This is the next generation series, if you don't like it being x86, that's just going to be too bad for you. Well, there maybe ARM versions, if that would make you any happier. ;)
I reckon there is a wee bit more to you than just being the CUSA chief Fanboy than I first thought. I find it just a wee bit suspicious that you appear to have been at the meeting Red had with CUSA, very suspicious indeed... ;)
Anyway the point I was going to make here is, do you not think that with replies like that and the ones Leo makes that all you are doing is alienating more & more folk against CUSA, just something to think about that all... :)
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I reckon there is a wee bit more to you than just being the CUSA chief Fanboy than I first thought. I find it just a wee bit suspicious that you appear to have been at the meeting Red had with CUSA, very suspicious indeed... ;)
Yaa!! I have not been part of a good conspiracy in a while. Please let me know what nefarious discussions took place. I really want to know!:lol:
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Conspiracy theory's are great, they liven up any conversation and there is always some truth to be found in them if you dig deep enough... :)
The "nefarious discussions" that may or may not have taken place only you are privy to at the moment, or have you forgotten them already... :)
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This is the next generation series, if you don't like it being x86, that's just going to be too bad for you. Well, there maybe ARM versions, if that would make you any happier. ;)
Once more: calling something the next generation of something you didn't even design, and which it has nothing in common with, does not actually make it the next generation. It doesn't matter how often you repeat it, that won't make it true.
Also, while I like ARM as a general thing, an ARM-based system that has as much nothing in common with the Amiga as this being called the Amiga (whether or not there's a piddly little X on the end to allegedly differentiate them) would piss me off just as much.
Commodore 64 Web.It
Yeah, that was stupid too.
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Guess what, they are calling it C64x and Amigax and people can not be confused if they read the product info which clearly states it's a PC with dual core Atom (Amiga info hasn't been released yet).
That's kinda like saying that people should have read the ingredients before being disappointed with New Coke.
There is value (and power) in a name.
Just sayin'. :)
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I heard they were using coke at their meeting.
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Old KThunder doesn't see things clearly like most (I think), he just likes to say what he thinks people think without thinking about it, don't you KT... ;)
It's like trying to have a serious discussion with a chatbot...
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Once more: calling something the next generation of something you didn't even design, and which it has nothing in common with, does not actually make it the next generation. It doesn't matter how often you repeat it, that won't make it true.
IIRC, the mobo for C64x is custom designed by Barry. Keyboard and it's associated board is custom as well. Good enought?
Also, while I like ARM as a general thing, an ARM-based system that has as much nothing in common with the Amiga as this being called the Amiga (whether or not there's a piddly little X on the end to allegedly differentiate them) would piss me off just as much.
I can feel your rage. I felt the exact same about those awful Teron mobos being badge as AmigaOne. If you think the A1X1K has the right to be referred as an AmigaOne because it has a customized mobo, the same should be applied to the C64x.
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I heard they were using coke at their meeting.
Not me, water only. :)
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It's like trying to have a serious discussion with a chatbot with you...
Is that it... I've been watching you type this ruddy reply for the past 12 minutes & 11 seconds now and that's all you've came up with (thought it was going to be something epic)... :lol:
Anyway chatbots are boring then tend to go a wee bit barmy when I talk to them and seem to get awfully confused by some of the things I say for some weird reason... :)
At least you always give me something to say, whether it makes much sense or not doesn't really matter, it's all done in the best possible taste... :)
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IIRC, the mobo for C64x is custom designed by Barry. Keyboard and it's associated board is custom as well. Good enought?
I should have phrased that a little more clearly. I meant that C-USA did not design the original, actual C64 or Amiga, not that they didn't design their current products. My objection is not to the lack of creative work done on the Numiga (though I do find it annoying,) it's to the idea that calling it the same thing (sorry, "the same thingx") is sufficient to make it the successor, even when it has nothing more in common with the Amiga than any other PC on the market. It's like if Lawrence Welk bought out the Hendrix estate, recorded an album of his usual fare, and then tried to release it under the name "Jimi Hendrix."
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I should have phrased that a little more clearly. I meant that C-USA did not design the original, actual C64 or Amiga, not that they didn't design their current products. My objection is not to the lack of creative work done on the Numiga (though I do find it annoying,) it's to the idea that calling it the same thing (sorry, "the same thingx") is sufficient to make it the successor, even when it has nothing more in common with the Amiga than any other PC on the market. It's like if Lawrence Welk bought out the Hendrix estate, recorded an album of his usual fare, and then tried to release it under the name "Jimi Hendrix."
First, nothing has been released in detail (atleast none that I know of) about the upcoming Amiga models other then what box series they are going to customize (just like A-EON is going to do with the A1X1K's modified box). Second, C=USA, like Eyetech and now A-EON, have a license to badge what they want as specified in their license agreement. Third, more information, including more details about the OS that will run on Amiga series should be released after the C64x's launch.
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Second, C=USA, like Eyetech and now A-EON, have a license to badge what they want as specified in their license agreement.
People keep tossing this line out. I've stated many times before that I don't care whether it's properly licensed or not. The fact that it's legal for them to use the names does not automatically make their product a legitimate successor, let alone anything like an official "next generation." If C-USA was hoping that paying to license the names would imbue this with any kind of legitimacy in the absence of that obtained by actual connection with the real Amiga or its legacy, then it's a sad waste of money on their part, as far as I'm concerned.
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@ dammy & redrumloa:
Guess what, they are calling it C64x and Amigax and people can not be confused
Commodore 64 Web.It
Appearently we're talking at cross-purposes - KThunder wrote in post #75:
The Commodore of old DID sell pc clones, so it really is the same thing.
He was clearly talking about "The Commodore of old" - so it should be perfectly clear that I was referring to the Commodore that went belly up in 1994 with "they", when I replied:
But they didn't call them "C64" or "Amiga" - they called them what they really were: Commodore 386/486 PCs...
I have the feeling you think I was talking about C=USA of today, which isn't the case.
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@ dammy & redrumloa:
I have the feeling you think I was talking about C=USA of today, which isn't the case.
Actually I understood you were talking about the original Commodore, before the 1994 bankruptcy. I was just trying to point out that a "Commodore" company prior to current Commodore USA did indeed market and sell a PC using the name "Commodore 64". The Commodore 64 Web.It was a flop as far as I can tell when it came out in the mid-late 90's, but I don't remember the outrage that I am seeing out of some (not pointing fingers) today.
-Edit-
I should point out that I was deeply critical and cynical about Commodore USA and was pretty vocal about it, but I don't think I used terms like crook, con artist, scammer etc. I'm one of the old timers and wannebe historians, so I remember all of the vapor, scams and hoaxes (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=29050&highlight=vapor+list) all too well. Once I saw progress towards actual product, my stance softened. Some are still using terms like con artist, scammer etc. Seems a little harsh.
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@ Redrumloa
Methinks you may mean this thingy... :)
WEB COMPUTERS INTERNATIONAL - WEB IT (http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/c64web.html)
even though I wasn't on the net back then I do recall seeing a few articles about it in magazines at the time. It never received any favourable reviews and seemed to just disappear... :)
Big difference between that and the CUSA products though are the WCI WEB IT never attempted to look like the C64 or even make claims that it was the new C64 or it's successor... :)
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Is that it... I've been watching you type this ruddy reply for the past 12 minutes & 11 seconds now and that's all you've came up with (thought it was going to be something epic)... :lol:
Anyway chatbots are boring then tend to go a wee bit barmy when I talk to them and seem to get awfully confused by some of the things I say for some weird reason... :)
At least you always give me something to say, whether it makes much sense or not doesn't really matter, it's all done in the best possible taste... :)
I wrote a couple things, decided they were too harsh and I didn't want to piss anyone off, so I wrote that.
We had a guy here a few years ago called narayan, he seemed like a damaged chatbot. It was pretty fun to try to figure out what he was talking about.
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@ Redrumloa
Methinks you may mean this thingy... :)
WEB COMPUTERS INTERNATIONAL - WEB IT (http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/c64web.html)
even though I wasn't on the net back then I do recall seeing a few articles about it in magazines at the time. It never received any favourable reviews and seemed to just disappear... :)
Big difference between that and the CUSA products though are the WCI WEB IT never attempted to look like the C64 or even make claims that it was the new C64 or it's successor... :)
Bzzt, but thanks for trolling^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h playing. Mechy has a parting gift for you at the door. From your own link.
The new C64 is based around MS-DOS and the internet as standard. The new machine retains compatibility with original CBM 64 software through the use of a software emulator. Whilst the exact emulator included is unknown, the emulator will allow the use of hundreds of games that can be downloaded from the internet.
(http://www.computermuseum-ebenthal.at/computer/c64_web_it.jpg)
The box says Commodore 64, the computer says Commodore 64. You are going to have to try harder than that to find an error in my recollection of Commodore history;)
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@ Red
"Trolling" is my business it seems and if that's what you wanna call me the so be it, after all it's just silly made up word used by internet numpties... :)
The box may say Commodore 64 and the badge on the machine may say Commodore 64 but not even a three legged blind man and his guide hamster would have thought it was a genuine C64... :)
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The box may say Commodore 64 and the badge on the machine may say Commodore 64 but not even a three legged blind man and his guide hamster would have thought it was a genuine C64...
Doesn't change the fact that they were trying to market it as one. However, people do still seem to think that the fact that other companies tried to market unrelated hardware as "Commodore 64" or "Amiga" makes it okay for C-USA to do so. It doesn't. It doesn't matter how many people did so in the past. And the only reason I wasn't deriding the Web.It at the time was because I wasn't online and wasn't a member of the Commodore community then. (Well, that and the fact that, with a name like "Web.It," it mocks itself. God, what were people smoking in the '90s?) Had I been on a Commodore newsgroup at the time, I would have expressed precisely the same sentiments towards it as I do towards C-USA.
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Are you keepin up with the Commodore?
CAUSE THE COMMODORE IS KEEPIN UP WITH YOU.
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I got your modern C=64 right here... :laughing:
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Actually I understood you were talking about the original Commodore, before the 1994 bankruptcy. I was just trying to point out that a "Commodore" company prior to current Commodore USA did indeed market and sell a PC using the name "Commodore 64". The Commodore 64 Web.It was a flop as far as I can tell when it came out in the mid-late 90's,
First lets try to get a common understanding:
With "in the mid-late 90's" you mean the years 1995-1999?
If so, then you see me rather surprised, as Commodore International declared bankruptcy on April 29, 1994.
So I ask:
Did I miss something? How could they "market and sell a PC using the name "Commodore 64"", if they were already roughly one year bankrupt in "the mid 90s" (1995)?
And b.t.w. - today is the first time I hear that Commodore allegedly marketed and sold a PC using the name "Commodore 64" back in the 90s.
The only "Commodore 64" I've heard of in the 80s/90s was this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_64) - but it wasn't a "PC" (assuming that you're referring to something based on the Intel x86 cpu family with "PC"), it was called "homecomputer" and had a Motorola 6510 cpu - at least here...
A quick research in Wikipedia brought up a chronological list of all Commodore "of old" computers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_International#Computers) - but there is no "Commodore 64" listed in the "Commodore PC compatible systems"-section.
but I don't remember the outrage that I am seeing out of some (not pointing fingers) today.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm not outraged - just confused by the "facts" you presented so far...
...
Once I saw progress towards actual product, my stance softened.
...
Where and when did you see "progress towards actual product"?
I haven't seen anything aside from nicely raytraced pictures of how they envisaged their planned products might look like - no prototype, no screenshots - but maybe I missed something.
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Doesn't change the fact that they were trying to market it as one. However, people do still seem to think that the fact that other companies tried to market unrelated hardware as "Commodore 64" or "Amiga" makes it okay for C-USA to do so. It doesn't. It doesn't matter how many people did so in the past. And the only reason I wasn't deriding the Web.It at the time was because I wasn't online and wasn't a member of the Commodore community then. (Well, that and the fact that, with a name like "Web.It," it mocks itself. God, what were people smoking in the '90s?) Had I been on a Commodore newsgroup at the time, I would have expressed precisely the same sentiments towards it as I do towards C-USA.
Gotta agree with that 100%... :)
Trouble is most of the ones supporting CUSA can only dig into the past looking for excuses to back up CUSA as they can't think of anything better by themselves to say... :)
This isn't the past this is here and now and what CUSA plan on selling is about a genuine and real as the Loch Ness Monster or the fact that I'm a brain surgeon... :)
Even Red seems to be changing his tune from some of the posts he's made here, reckon a Coke wasn't the only thing Barry slipped him... ;)
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First lets try to get a common understanding:
With "in the mid-late 90's" you mean the years 1995-1999?
If so, then you see me rather surprised, as Commodore International declared bankruptcy on April 29, 1994.
It wasn't Commodore - it was a company called Web Computers International. I don't recall if they actually obtained a license to use the name or just didn't feel they needed to ask.
This isn't the past this is here and now and what CUSA plan on selling is about a genuine and real as the Loch Ness Monster or the fact that I'm a brain surgeon... :)
Are you suggesting the Loch Ness Monster isn't real? Jeez, man, have some national pride! I'm not even from the UK and I show that poor beast more respect!
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Are you keepin up with the Commodore?
CAUSE THE COMMODORE IS KEEPIN UP WITH YOU.
??????????????????????
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??????????????????????
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8pK_q-_6dw)
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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8pK_q-_6dw)
Exactly - that's the C64 I know...
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Imagine that. Commodore advertising product
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@ CommodoreJohn & Dandy
??????????!!!!!!!!!! (http://www.commodorescotland.com/#/c64-tv/4545162598)
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Great C64 videos you put on the web - didn´t know that there was so great marketing at Commodore - curious why this didn´t happen also for Amiga?
Was this marketing for GB specially or also for the US-market?
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Great C64 videos you put on the web - didn´t know that there was so great marketing at Commodore - curious why this didn´t happen also for Amiga?
Was this marketing for GB specially or also for the US-market?
Most of those ads are American & Austrailian only 3 (I think) were for the UK market... :)
There are around 18 Amiga ones I have from all over the world, just need to finish trying to restore them as best I can before I put them on the site... :)
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I had a friend from high school who found out a few years ago that I liked all things commodore, and he remembered a commodore commercial from the 80s "I can do more with my commodore 64!"
Many places here in the states Apple had a strangle hold on the schools. My school had "trash80's" in the middle school and Apples in the high school with a few pc's showing up later on.
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I had a friend from high school who found out a few years ago that I liked all things commodore, and he remembered a commodore commercial from the 80s "I can do more with my commodore 64!"
Many places here in the states Apple had a strangle hold on the schools. My school had "trash80's" in the middle school and Apples in the high school with a few pc's showing up later on.
That's interesting, I haven't came across that one yet, you don't have it by any chance do you, it would be nice to add to the collection... :)
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Are you suggesting the Loch Ness Monster isn't real? Jeez, man, have some national pride! I'm not even from the UK and I show that poor beast more respect!
I believe in Nessie :P
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On the Commodore adverts commercial subject, it's not an advert, but years ago I bought a c128 +1541 floppy at an auction (cost me $1:)). Included amongst the "bundle" was an old c64 vhs video tape. A sort of, "Welcome To The C64 + Programming" video. I've still got it, but have never watched more than a few minutes of it :) Maybe once I get my classic amiga all sorted out I should buy a c64 or 128 to go along with the various c64 stuff I collected over the years :)
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On the Commodore adverts commercial subject, it's not an advert, but years ago I bought a c128 +1541 floppy at an auction (cost me $1:)). Included amongst the "bundle" was an old c64 vhs video tape. A sort of, "Welcome To The C64 + Programming" video. I've still got it, but have never watched more than a few minutes of it :) Maybe once I get my classic amiga all sorted out I should buy a c64 or 128 to go along with the various c64 stuff I collected over the years :)
Do you have the ability to convert it to a digital format? I would love to see this and see it preserved. If you don't have the ability, would you be willing to mail it to me to convert? -
I would return it when converted and the community would have it forever.
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But they didn't call them "C64" or "Amiga" - they called them what they really were: Commodore 386/486 PCs...
Hi,
@Dandy,
Sorry do not pass go, do not collect $200, go to jail, go directly to jail, you gave wrong information on the Commodore PC's.
The Commodore PC's where called PC-10 and PC-20.
Thank You,
smerf
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Very curious as to what it is makes you think these "7 million former Amiga owners never came back"...
(PS: how did you arrive at that figure and how do you know they "never came back"... did you know them personally... :))
Hi,
@Franko,
I counted all them suckers and believe me there was actually 7 million and one, why 7 million and one, because he forgot to count himself when he counted all them suckers.
Did I know all of them personally?
Why heck yes, used to party with all of them every weekend. Let me tell you those guys could drink, had to install extra urinals don't you know. Had to call the plumbers every weekend to unclog the womens rest room too! don't you know, I would tell you why but you all pretty much guessed why.
smerf
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Hi,
@ Franko,
How do I know they never came back?
Because all 7 million and one of them are at my place still drinking, thats how. Forgot about the Amiga they sure did!
smerf
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It's perfectly true what dammy said... In 1992 and after there was no way in hell Commodore could have kept up with the PC world, mainly because of the entire board being a custom chipset. it was, sadly, even in 1992, a doomed concept(for a PC, gaming consoles to this day remain an entirely custom chipsets all along).
If they went the way of a 68000 based mobo + PC expansion cards, things would have probably turned out pretty differently(strictly performance-wise).
Games is what drove PC hardware upgrades. Its what really made graphics chips updates necessary in the PC world. Was a plug-in 3rd party graphics card architecture vital for amiga to continue as a viable paltform?
Well its interestingly, custom chips for consoles did not hold games back games development on them, with about a 5-6 year cycle. IMO Commodore could have released AGA 12-18 months earlier, which would have competed with SNES and Megadrive well enough, especially if they pushed the A1200CD and a 28 Mhz '020 with even just 2 MB FAst RAM and would have held onto its user base. Had they survived beyond 1994, custom chips with high res chunky graphics and built in 3D functions could have been implemented well enough to compete with a PS1 and N64 at least, so that would have retained many users. That custom chip system could have had a life of 5 years just like the consoles, as CPU and ram upgrades and mature programming could have more or less been good enough to produce quality games.
BTW: most viable? Sounds like AROS. What do i use and probably will continue to? Classic hardware.
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First off, this poll is not meant to ruffle any feathers. I am simply curious the consensus in 2011 of Amiga.org users. The aim is for users to pick ONE option as if you forced to pick only one. Sadly, there is no pancakes option.
MorphOS, since it represents the peak of Amiga evolution. MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
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If the games had pushed the Amiga harder and Commodore itself, than Amiga would be a lot further by now.
If you bought an Amiga 1200 in 1992/1993 and asked Commodore or it's reseller for a turbo upgrade, they would have said look around, but don't look for it at our shop!
And that attitude is what killed Commodore.
Games is what drove PC hardware upgrades. Its what really made graphics chips updates necessary in the PC world. Was a plug-in 3rd party graphics card architecture vital for amiga to continue as a viable paltform?
Well its interestingly, custom chips for consoles did not hold games back games development on them, with about a 5-6 year cycle. IMO Commodore could have released AGA 12-18 months earlier, which would have competed with SNES and Megadrive well enough, especially if they pushed the A1200CD and a 28 Mhz '020 with even just 2 MB FAst RAM and would have held onto its user base. Had they survived beyond 1994, custom chips with high res chunky graphics and built in 3D functions could have been implemented well enough to compete with a PS1 and N64 at least, so that would have retained many users. That custom chip system could have had a life of 5 years just like the consoles, as CPU and ram upgrades and mature programming could have more or less been good enough to produce quality games.
BTW: most viable? Sounds like AROS. What do i use and probably will continue to? Classic hardware.
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Hi,
@Dandy,
Sorry do not pass go, do not collect $200, go to jail, go directly to jail, you gave wrong information on the Commodore PC's.
The Commodore PC's where called PC-10 and PC-20.
Thank You,
smerf
Maybe you should follow the link I gave in my posting #148 regarding old Commodores PC line - there are the types listed you missed in my posting #121:
"Commodore PC compatible systems - Commodore Colt, PC1, PC10, PC20, PC30, PC40, ..., 486SX-LTC"
Obviously Commodore International marketet their PCs differently in different countries.
I only remembered the Commodore PCs 386 and 486, which obcviously were marketet as PC-50 and PC-60 elswhere.
Back in summer 1986 I wanted to buy a computer to study CAD. At that time I had heard of the overwhelming graphical capabilities of the Amiga and so went to a Commodore dealer to get more information about those systems.
When I told the dealer that I wanted to do CAD on it, he laughed at me and told me that the Amigas just were "better gaming boxes" - but far from being useful for CAD.
He said for that I would need an Commodore 386 PC, that just had been released and would cost 6.000 DM (roughly equals to 3.000 €), plus a good graphics card for 1.500+, plus the CAD software for well over 10.000 DM, plus a plotter for annother absurd amount of money.
Note that he said "Commodore 386 PC" - and not "Commodore PC-50".
Unnecessary to mention that I ended up with an Amiga two and a half years later and that I bought my first x86PC as late as 2004...
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I believe in Nessie :P
Are you suggesting the Loch Ness Monster isn't real? Jeez, man, have some national pride! I'm not even from the UK and I show that poor beast more respect!
@ commodorejohn & save2600
I shouldn't really be telling you this (keep it to yourselves) but, Nessie is just a tourist scam that we use to overcharge (mainly yanks & Japs) during the summer so we can make an extra few quid to keep the nation supplied with buckfast... ;)
It's a bit like the wild 3 legged Haggis shoots we take them on up the hillsides... ;)
Hi Smerf ... :)
You know them 7 million ex Commodore users that you party with every weekend, well at your next party could you look for a wee fat baw faced git that goes by the name of Gib and ask him when I'm going to get back the tenner I lent the bugger back in 97... :)
As for the lavvies getting bunged up, simple solution let them use the back garden instead (just make sure they do their business over the fence into the neighbours garden)... :)
(PS: how do you manage to fit 7 million ex Commodore users into a guinea pig cage !!!)
Franko
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Great C64 videos you put on the web - didn´t know that there was so great marketing at Commodore - curious why this didn´t happen also for Amiga?
Was this marketing for GB specially or also for the US-market?
Jack left C=, business decisions became ineffective. It's that simple.
Bought in Amiga technology staved off their demise half a decade, but with idiots like Medhi cocking things up what did you expect.
Example: Jack asked for what turned out to be the C16 but it was meant to retail @ $70 to wipe out low end competion ie VIC20 replacement. New management ended up with +4 @ $299 with just extra 48kb RAM and same crippled chipset :roflmao:
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The custom chipset has been mentioned a few times recently on a couple threads and I thought I would comment on it.
The custom chipset wasn't the reason Commodore, or the Amiga had trouble, because it was Commodores chipset, as in not only did they own it they owned Mos tech which produced it all the way up to AGA.
"Vertical Integration" was the reason the Vic and C64 were less expensive than the competition, had generally better chipsets, and the c64 had a custom 6502. It was the reason Commodore could take on the Amiga chipset in the first place and sell for less than most of the competition, whilst having better features etc.
The problem came because Commodore didn't put enough money into Mos tech. By '85 rather than produce a 16bit cpu they went with a 68000 (the 16bit 65816 which is 6502 compatible works pretty dang good in the Apple IIgs and snes) And by the time AGA came around they couldn't fabricate some of the chips so they had to outsource.
So much of the cost savings of having your own chipfab were negated by the early '90s and commodore had to charge more and more while giving less and less in features. The cpu manufacturer of most of the 80s computers didn't plan ahead. The computer company that holds a guiness world record for the most systems sold of any single computer line, died.
As much as I like the 68000 the Amiga should have had a 65816 style 16bit chip. By the 90's they should have transitioned over to a 32bit 6502 compatible risc chip. All the ram and chipset components should have been Mos tech produced. And the Amiga chipset and OS should have been licensed out and chip fab services as well.
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As much as I like the 68000 the Amiga should have had a 65816 style 16bit chip. By the 90's they should have transitioned over to a 32bit 6502 compatible risc chip. All the ram and chipset components should have been Mostek produced. And the Amiga chipset and OS should have been licensed out and chip fab services as well.
Whatever happened to Terbium?(WDC's 32 bit 6502 evolution)
But your idea is interesting... 65816 was shown to be roughly comparable to early 68K Motorolas. It's probably much cheaper as well. But since Lorraine was based on 68000 it would mean building a whole new chipset basically. I do not think that's likely to have been approved.
But 65816 maybe should have been used in the 128 or a similar C= branded machine.
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Thats the thing though, the chipset probably wouldn't have had to be changed much at all. And they should have been able to handle it easily. The 68000 has a 16bit interface and kinda funky control bus setup but nothing too weird. I have seen 68020's connected to Apple II's so even if a little glue logic was required for OCS it could be completely fixed by ECS
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I've heard that the 65816 is roughly comparable in horsepower to the 68000, but it's not nearly as nice an architecture, and nothing you'd want to build a multitasking OS around. It might have been good for Commodore to go with a MOS CPU for the Amiga, but it should have been a completely new design.
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Did the 65816 have a path forward with faster chips like the 68K ?
(Not being snarky here btw, Im not familiar with the chip in question)
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Nope. WDC was planning a 32-bit upgrade, but they haven't updated the news on it in years...
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I've heard that the 65816 is roughly comparable in horsepower to the 68000, but it's not nearly as nice an architecture, and nothing you'd want to build a multitasking OS around. It might have been good for Commodore to go with a MOS CPU for the Amiga, but it should have been a completely new design.
The 65816 is a nightmare. I think it is the worst CPU to code for, ever.
Thank God they used 68k
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I think you missed what I said, I said a 16bit 6502 compatible cpu and then mentioned the 65816 as an example that it could be done and done well. The apple IIgs is pretty impressive machine, and though it is clocked at 2.whatever mhz the snes does pretty well too. The gs was actually a good bit better than the original mac.
http://oldcomputers.net/appleiigs.html
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and though it is clocked at 2.whatever mhz the snes does pretty well too.
You do know the SNES is a pain in the ass to develop for because of the 65816 being the CPU inside of it , right?
Among other things.
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The 65816 is a nightmare. I think it is the worst CPU to code for, ever.
I wouldn't go that far - as an update to the 6502 architecture it's actually pretty decent, and it's not too bad for a single-tasking system like a game console. You just wouldn't want to build a multi-tasking computer around it. Ever.
The apple IIgs is pretty impressive machine, and though it is clocked at 2.whatever mhz the snes does pretty well too. (http://oldcomputers.net/appleiigs.html)
In terms of functional horsepower, yes. It's just not even remotely as nice to code for as the 68k, because it's an 8-bit architecture kludged up to 16-bit (see also: Intel 8086,) instead of being a 32-bit architecture on a 16-bit bus like the 68k.
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I didn't say use a 65816 I said they should have had their own 16bit 6502 cpu!!!
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Not sure that's really a great idea, either - most of the 65816's problems stem from its being a 16-bit kludge on an 8-bit processor. If they were to do a custom CPU for the Amiga, it would've been better to create something from scratch.
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Mos/CSG Commodore had the 6502 from what 1974 or 75, they had their own chip fab; it is insane that they never produced a 16bit upgrade to the 6502.
They sold the C64 into the 90's so there definitely was a market there. And they had the fabrication abilities in the mid-80s.
and besides the Phenom II x6 is a multicore 64bit cludge, on a 32bit pentium cludge, on a 32bit 386 cludge, on a 16bit 286 cludge, on a 8/16bit 8088 cludge and it does great.
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and besides the Phenom II x6 is a multicore 64bit cludge, on a 32bit pentium cludge, on a 32bit 386 cludge, on a 16bit 286 cludge, on a 8/16bit 8088 cludge and it does great.
Only because everything in the x86 line post-Pentium Pro is a much cleaner microarchitecture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_Pro#Microarchitecture) running an x86 in emulation, on top of which is the fact that Intel's on the bleeding edge of chip fabrication technology. It does well, but it would probably do better if it weren't tied to an architecture that's more legacy cruft by this point than it is actual modern CPU.
I'm not saying there wasn't a market for a 16-bit 6502 variant, but that niche is probably filled about as well as it could be by the 65816, and as for a theoretical Amiga CPU, I go by this: whenever you're not tied by backwards-compatibility issues (which you aren't when developing a new computer) it's better to pick or develop a clean, unencumbered design than to pick something loaded down with legacy-compatibility issues.
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I would agree with that, unless you have sold millions of computers with said cpu, have a large software base, and have the capability of working around legacy problems.
In hindsight there is another factor as well though. The 68020 was pretty much perfectly compatible with the 68000, the 68030 slightly less so, the '040, even less and the '060 well don't even try to run it without software patches. Coldfire are pretty much incompatible. Looking back, a cpu design produced and maintained by Commodore is even better.
Your one comment on Intel being bleeding edge fabrication is my point. In the 70's MOS was bleeding edge, the 6502 took the world by storm because MOS and MOS alone knew how to fix their masks and raise chip yeilds to 70% where intel and others were throwing away 70%.
By the 80's MOS/CSG was average, and by the 90's they were well behind, all because Commodore used the vertical integration to raise profits and then not invest in additional capability. That started with the Amiga and the 68000. All of their previous computers used MOS chips almost exclusively.
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Looks like the "NG" options are about equal, with classics being quite a bit ahead.
UAE on its own is far behind. If you combine it with "other" (presumably the various FPGA options fit here), its about equal with any of the NG options.