Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: takemehomegrandma on January 12, 2011, 07:00:39 PM
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For years people have been discussing a potential alternative route to PPC for "Next Generation Amiga", a discussion that has only become more relevant since PPC effectively went dead for all interesting purposes a few years back.
Often has these discussions been focused on x86, but as many people has pointed out, its endianness would probably be a show stopper. Other people feels that x86 is a show stopper in its own merits, because of various historical/"nerd-religious"/emotional reasons.
However, there might be a better alternative, if a new platform jump is to take place; ARM!
I have written a few posts over at MorphZone about this, and I'm not going to cross-post, but point you to it:
http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7675&sortname=&sortorder=&sortdays=&viewmode=flat&order=0&start=0
(Don't miss the video with Windows and Office running on ARM! :))
So a lot has been happening on the ARM front recently, and a *solid* momentum and future for the platform is being built up.
So what do you think? Would ARM qualify as a new architecture for *miga?
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For years people have been discussing a potential alternative route to PPC for "Next Generation Amiga", a discussion that has only become more relevant since PPC effectively went dead for all interesting purposes a few years back.
Often has these discussions been focused on x86, but as many people has pointed out, its endianness would probably be a show stopper. Other people feels that x86 is a show stopper in its own merits, because of various historical/"nerd-religious"/emotional reasons.
However, there might be a better alternative, if a new platform jump is to take place; ARM!
I have written a few posts over at MorphZone about this, and I'm not going to cross-post, but point you to it:
http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7675&sortname=&sortorder=&sortdays=&viewmode=flat&order=0&start=0
(Don't miss the video with Windows and Office running on ARM! :))
So a lot has been happening on the ARM front recently, and a *solid* momentum and future for the platform is being built up.
So what do you think? Would ARM qualify as a new architecture for *miga?
For the current PPC-only AmigaOS derivatives ARM is the most likely choice.
AROS already has a ARM port.
Future Workbench X will be x86 only at first but thanks to it's Linux underpinnings could be made in the ARM version also, should need ever arise.
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I considered buying a Pandora (http://open-pandora.org/) handheld gaming system at one time. I wouldn't mind having AROS running on one of those.
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So what features will Workbench X have?
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The Beagle Board is good product to try it on.
http://www.beagleboard.org
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I'm a 68k diehard as far as the Amiga goes, but I am interested in the growing popularity of ARM-based systems - the PC market has been x86-dominated for so long now, and I'd very much like to see some diversity again. I've been pondering a BeagleBoard for a while now; think I might order one in the near future...
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Personally, I like the PandaBoard. It doesn't cost any more (about $174) and is more powerful.
http://pandaboard.org/
And Nvidia has announced a new processor that they claim will compete in the desktop/severs market. While no details have been announced for this processor (other than Microsoft supporting it under Windows 8) it seems likely that this will be one of the most powerful ARM processors ever created (if not the most powerful).
While new PPC processors continue to be developed, ARM seems to have more momentum and prices for ARM based evaluation boards are usually much lower.
ARM definately looks better suited to run Amiga related OS' than the X86 family.
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The Panda does look really good.
I like the PPC but Arm looks inviting.
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I considered buying a Pandora (http://open-pandora.org/) handheld gaming system at one time. I wouldn't mind having AROS running on one of those.
I got my Pandora a few days ago, nice bit of kit. My main reason for geting one was old school gaming emulation with hardware controls, the Keyboard is a nice bonus though.
Back to Turrican 2..
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For years people have been discussing a potential alternative route to PPC for "Next Generation Amiga", a discussion that has only become more relevant since PPC effectively went dead for all interesting purposes a few years back.
Often has these discussions been focused on x86, but as many people has pointed out, its endianness would probably be a show stopper. Other people feels that x86 is a show stopper in its own merits, because of various historical/"nerd-religious"/emotional reasons.
However, there might be a better alternative, if a new platform jump is to take place; ARM!
I have written a few posts over at MorphZone about this, and I'm not going to cross-post, but point you to it:
http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7675&sortname=&sortorder=&sortdays=&viewmode=flat&order=0&start=0
(Don't miss the video with Windows and Office running on ARM! :))
So a lot has been happening on the ARM front recently, and a *solid* momentum and future for the platform is being built up.
So what do you think? Would ARM qualify as a new architecture for *miga?
I dont see why not. Linux already runs on it fine, and there's a massive amount of different boards available, low power requirements, low heat, and getting pretty good performance out of them.
It's definately the future
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I actually never took PPC seriously for Amiga. Commodore never produced models with PPC, so from a purist point of view, they were not Amiga, and I'm pretty sure that they didn't start getting produced until after the Amiga market was commercially dead from my point of view. They always seemed to be more of a retro add-on. Kind of like the products from Individual Computers.
By the time I had even heard of them, it was pretty clear that the PPC wasn't going anywhere on the desktop.
So, for me, the original Amiga was a 68k processor. Anything else is an attempt to bring back Amiga on a new platform. If I was going to try to bring back Amiga on a new platform, there are two obvious choices. x86 and ARM. x86 is being attempted by AROS and CUSA. x86 is an obvious choice because it has so much market momentem.
ARM on the other hand has started to be VERY interesting. Computers passed the 'good enough' stage a few years ago. So, we are now in the 'reduce resources' stage. ARM is doing amazing things in this area. I wouldn't count Intel out yet, but I don't see ARM going away soon. With it's mass production, and continued development, it is a legitimate target for future systems.
So, from my perspective, ARM is a more legitimate target than PPC ever was.
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Personally I dont really care too much for any of the ppc amiga systems, but ARM seems a reasonable successor if there's ever a decision made to change architectures.
What I do find interesting is ARM power consumption growing as x86 power consumption declines. AMD bobcat is already as low as 9w including an intergrated hd6xxx (dx11) class gpu.
Between ARM and x86 there's actually a bit of interesting stuff happening in the computer world at the moment.
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Personally I dont really care too much for any of the ppc amiga systems, but ARM seems a reasonable successor if there's ever a decision made to change architectures.
What I do find interesting is ARM power consumption growing as x86 power consumption declines. AMD bobcat is already as low as 9w including an intergrated hd6xxx (dx11) class cpu.
Between ARM and x86 there's actually a bit of interesting stuff happening in the computer world at the moment.
As a PPC user, I'm obviously biased, but I do see the PPC as the natural successor to the 68K. Both share the same endian design (as does the ARM, and NOT the X86). I can understand everyone desire for low cost, modern hardware. But X86 was once the enemies product of choice.
Therefore, if we're going to change ISAs again, ARM has my vote.
It RISC, it will run Amiga code more efficiently then X86, and most importantly its not Intel.
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Sure, I have no problems with PPC, or even the PPC amiga options, and it made a kind of sense to use it as the successor to 68k. When I say I dont really care too much I dont mean it in a negative way, Im just somewhat nonchalant. AROS I have a little interest in, but that's declining as well compared to my heavy involvement of the past. The closest thing to an "NG" amiga system Im still quite into these days is Amithlon. For me it's just about being able to continue my amiga hobby of old, with software I know and enjoy, and while I can understand people wanting to use an evolved version of the amiga the new options lose just as much as they gain for my tastes.
Sorry for being a little off topic, I just wanted to clarify that I wasnt bashing PPC. (Im getting pretty darn tired of the arguing about all the typical stuff these days) :)
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Both share the same endian design (as does the ARM, and NOT the X86).
As far as I know ARM is bi endian. Same goes for PPC, at least in some models.
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As far as I know ARM is bi endian. Same goes for PPC, at least in some models.
Actually, you're right Alan. ARM is bi-endian and most PPCs (except the G5) are also. That why its easier to port 68K software to these processor (since X86 only operates in the opposite endian mode as a 68K).
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Everybody loves you when you're bi.
...ahem.
ARM is getting more interesting, I think there are at least 10 products (probably more) in this house using ARM architecture. And I see handheld/mobile computing as the future.
Remember that the BBC micro used a 6502 and ARM are an offshoot of Acorn, so there's a tenuous sentimental relationship to MOS and C= as well.
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Everybody loves you when you're bi.
...ahem.
ARM is getting more interesting, I think there are at least 10 products (probably more) in this house using ARM architecture. And I see handheld/mobile computing as the future.
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Iv'e never thought to count them, so:
GP32
x2 Nintendo DS
4 Smart phones
Psion Revo
Netbook
Dreamcast
10 here as well, they really are everywhere! Iv'e always liked ARM since I had a Psion. It ran for weeks, ran cool, and was nippy enough to run doom.
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Dreamcast is not ARM.
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No ARM in trying.
Sad I know. But I miss Franko..
Tag: Typed on a little Netbook(Atom) running XP. No ARM in that either.
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x86 has and continues the brute force approach.
In the old days you had to think long and hard which platform you wanted, because of the low chance of software getting ported.
The only thing you have to think about now is whether you want to buy a locked down nanny you gadget or if you want an open one. There is a high chance cross platform software. Directx coming to Linux is a nice one.
Developers big and small make an effort to port there stuff to both Mac and Windows. On a smaller level also to an iphone.
If you want something bloated you can have Windows or Linux (lite versions yeah got it). It would not be an Amiga experience unless the OS is very lean or very easy to make lean.
My vote is for ARM because you could make it feel like an olde Amiga. x86 PC still seems like a frankenstein monster...You're forever configuring drivers or altering the bios whenever you plug something in or reinstall the OS.
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x86 has and continues the brute force approach.
In the old days you had to think long and hard which platform you wanted, because of the low chance of software getting ported.
The only thing you have to think about now is whether you want to buy a locked down nanny you gadget or if you want an open one. There is a high chance cross platform software. Directx coming to Linux is a nice one.
Developers big and small make an effort to port there stuff to both Mac and Windows. On a smaller level also to an iphone.
If you want something bloated you can have Windows or Linux (lite versions yeah got it). It would not be an Amiga experience unless the OS is very lean or very easy to make lean.
My vote is for ARM because you could make it feel like an olde Amiga. x86 PC still seems like a frankenstein monster...You're forever configuring drivers or altering the bios whenever you plug something in or reinstall the OS.
I can only guess you was drunk while you typed this :)
DirectX for linux ? Huh? There's wine, but its not directx. You also seem to be confusing x86 for particular oses running on x86. As for cross platform development, the only thing that really needs to be considered is endianness, which doesnt often come up and is mostly dealt with by development tools and apis, and the apis themselves.
As for x86 using brute force, sure it can, but x86 is also quite elegant when it needs to be. In regards to ARM "feeling" more like amiga, that's like saying an orange "feels" more like a grapefruit in regards to the official fruit of argetina,.... completely nonsensical. AROS for example can run on various architectures, and not one "feels" different to the others, be it arm, ppc, x86 or x86-64. All feel *very* amiga like though. Additionally you can run big endian x86 code inside amiga os3.x inside amithlon and it does absolutely nothing to the feel besides improving speed.
Hopefully this doesnt seem too harsh, but your post really was a bunch of jibberish.
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Err I'm reading some important documents as I was typing so I'm distracted, not drunk.
Directx link:
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/directx-11-coming-to-linux-games-to-follow-whoa-slow-down-there/9776 (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/directx-11-coming-to-linux-games-to-follow-whoa-slow-down-there/9776)
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Dreamcast is not ARM.
Dreamcasts sound processor was an ARM 7 chip.
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hehe, I must admit that was my 1st thought when seeing Dreamcast mentioned too, but thankfully I decided to do a bit of googling before I responded. :)
I miss my Dreamcast. Probably my favorite of the "modern" consoles.
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The configuring drivers is also a sign of life, there's new hardware and hence new drivers. That being said I don't see it that often in bog standard Windows 7 machines. The main issue with Windows 7 is somebody wants to use this piece of equipment that they bought last century and there's no Windows 7 driver. New stuff pretty much just installs and the driver is there or you load it off disk or the website.
If you want to have a viable Amiga community in a decade or two, after all of us original Amiga users are gone, then you need new equipment. PPC is a dead end, intel provides you with cheap hardware but may be harder to port the OS to. ARM is hot, there's a gazillion new tablets out there. An AmiPad seems like the most logical step towards long term survival.
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I miss my Dreamcast. Probably my favorite of the "modern" consoles.
There's life in the old dog yet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1vcIhjUjCc
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Heh, cool, looks very nice. It's inspirations are pretty clear (some heavy rtype inspired bits there), but it looks to have been done quite well.
What's the story behind it though, is it a commercial game ? Looks too nice to be homebrew :)
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I've been saying for years now that ARM is a great option. With each passing month, new and even better news is coming out for ARM support.
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Heh, cool, looks very nice. It's inspirations are pretty clear (some heavy rtype inspired bits there), but it looks to have been done quite well.
What's the story behind it though, is it a commercial game ? Looks too nice to be homebrew :)
Yeah, I love R-Type. I think they are an indie publishing house, did Rush Rush Rally for DC as well. http://www.redspotgames.com/shop/
To stay on thread, do any of you think ARM will hit the desktop/notebook heavily?
I know intel are definitely trying to get heat/wattage down to the smartphone arena (wonder if they regret selling strongARM?) Could be a big battle ahead!
SIDENOTE: I have an ARM netbook, but it runs CE it is a bit shit. The clips in at 144MIPS, but can do less, and feels less responsive than my A1200:030/50. (This is definitely due to the OS though, as my Psion Revo is well nippy).
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ARM is the common sense non-x86 future choice of processor for the Amiga line.
The performance is there, the cost is low, the availability is massive, the choice is high. They're integrated, they're multi-core (for when that is available in AmigaOS).
Sure, we would need another 68k emulator in AmigaOS, and we would need all the PowerPC apps recompiled (or a PowerPC emulator... ugh).
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No ARM in trying.
Sad I know. But I miss Franko..
Tag: Typed on a little Netbook(Atom) running XP. No ARM in that either.
Where has Franko gone then ?
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Where has Franko gone then ?
So far as I know he decided to take his bat and ball and go home :)
Nah, seriously, I think he's just decided to return to a life of solitude and his amigas.
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Hopefully this new CPU kicks Intel butt! I have been sick of x86 since the day I bought my first PC.
More info on the Nvidia ARM:
http://blogs.nvidia.com/2011/01/project-denver-processor-to-usher-in-new-era-of-computing/
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Nah, it wont. ARM doesnt come close to high end x86 gear. Also x86 of today shares very little in common with x86 of yesteryear, so saying youre sick of x86 since you bought your first pc is like saying youre sick of a different cpu compared to what what is your 1st pc.
I probably shouldnt be surprised to see this kind of garbage on an Amiga site though.
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Nah, it wont. ARM doesnt come close to high end x86 gear. Also x86 of today shares very little in common with x86 of yesteryear, so saying youre sick of x86 since you bought your first pc is like saying youre sick of a different cpu compared to what what is your 1st pc.
I probably shouldnt be surprised to see this kind of garbage on an Amiga site though.
He might mean to program on. Or maybe he's had a series of buggy computers. You do have to be careful choosing your parts because some, usually cheap mfgrs parts will give you trouble.
Do you remember the old celeron with it's gimped 66mhz bus? At the same time the Pentium II use to cost a fortune. How about all those overclocked and rebadged CPUs before intel and AMD started locking them. Intel did a share swap with RAMBUS and tried to push their serial memory.
I can see how someone could have a bad opinion x86s.
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ARM is the common sense non-x86 future choice of processor for the Amiga line.
The performance is there, the cost is low, the availability is massive, the choice is high. They're integrated, they're multi-core (for when that is available in AmigaOS).
Sure, we would need another 68k emulator in AmigaOS, and we would need all the PowerPC apps recompiled (or a PowerPC emulator... ugh).
"or a PowerPC emulator... ugh", yeah that definitely does not sound ideal. We've been bantering this around in the MorphOS community and I think many of us have reached the same conclusion, PPC apps are going to have to be recompiled. Many ARM processors would perform fairly poorly when running a PPC JIT compiler anyway.
I don't think ARM is a possibility anymore, I think its inevitable. We'll probably see an AROS port first, but I expect to see other NG OS' move to this as well.
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ARM doesnt come close to high end x86 gear. Also x86 of today shares very little in common with x86 of yesteryear, so saying youre sick of x86 since you bought your first pc is like saying youre sick of a different cpu compared to what what is your 1st pc.
x86 is fine for performance, and it's true that it's come a long way since the 8086, it's still ugly as hell under the hood - the "four sort-of-but-not-really general-purpose registers" approach was obnoxious back in the day, and it's downright inexcusable now, with not only modern architectures but even the original 68000 providing a full complement of interchangeable registers. And it hasn't improved, either - they've just kept expanding the register width. Granted, a compiler can work out a good approach for shuffling values into and out of the registers, but for those of us who like assembler, it's pure aggravation.
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He might mean to program on. Or maybe he's had a series of buggy computers. You do have to be careful choosing your parts because some, usually cheap mfgrs parts will give you trouble.
Do you remember the old celeron with it's gimped 66mhz bus? At the same time the Pentium II use to cost a fortune. How about all those overclocked and rebadged CPUs before intel and AMD started locking them. Intel did a share swap with RAMBUS and tried to push their serial memory.
I can see how someone could have a bad opinion x86s.
Im more the sort of person who will judge something on it's merrits rather than dislike something because I chose something else. Sure, there has been some x86 cpu's that have been weak compared to others, but that doesnt mean x86 as a whole is bad (incidently the original celerons (apart from the 266mhz version) werent so bad vs. p2's.... thier l2 cache ran at full clock rate vs 1/2 clock rate of p2 and early p3's,.. it was only once coppermine was released that the 66mhz bus started to be a problem, but who ran thier celerons at original fsb anyway ?).
All this is neither here nor there anyway. As I said x86 of today is a far cry from x86 of yesteryear.
Modern x86 cpus have 16 general purpose registers by the way. Sure it's still less than a lot of RISC based chips, but quite a difference to the 4 that has been quoted.
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Nah, it wont. ARM doesnt come close to high end x86 gear. Also x86 of today shares very little in common with x86 of yesteryear, so saying youre sick of x86 since you bought your first pc is like saying youre sick of a different cpu compared to what what is your 1st pc.
I probably shouldnt be surprised to see this kind of garbage on an Amiga site though.
ARM is better suited as a destination for ports of 68K based OS' and software than X86. Yes, there are no ARM processor that match X86 in computing power, but ARM is considerably more powerful than 68K and has closed the gap in performance it had with PPCs.
ARM can be configured to run with the same endian structure as the 68K (as can most PPCs). X86 can not and suffers at least a 20% performance penalty because of that. The only reason this is not significant, is that X86 processors are already more powerful than needed to run this software.
Which brings up another point. How much CPU power do we need to run our software?
Both AOS4 and MorphOS can run on CPUs that operate below 400Mhz. Right now cheap ARM boards exist (at under $200) that run at 1Ghz. Clearly there is enough CPU power.
"I probably shouldnt be surprised to see this kind of garbage on an Amiga site though."
Why are you here if you don't think much of our opinions? This discussion was prompted by announcements made by Nvidia that they intended to compete with X86s in the desktop and server market with a new ARM design. I don't think Nvidia's ideas are foolish AND if they think they can create an ARM CPU that is powerful enough to compete in this market, well then we are going to see ARM processors that are
MORE powerful than we need (for our purposes).
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Don't you realize that you're confusing the hell out of C=USA with this thread. Are you trying to get them to change their plans and announce yet another new direction for the Amiga? :-)
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Don't you realize that you're confusing the hell out of C=USA with this thread. Are you trying to get them to change their plans and announce yet another new direction for the Amiga? :-)
I don't think our opinions carry much weight with CUSA. They've got their plans and I rather expect they'll stick to them.
They're not interested in the hobbyist market and we already upset them with some of our negative posts.
I don't think they see us a a major part of their potential market.
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x86 is being attempted by AROS ...
Currently a nightly build (http://aros.sourceforge.net/download.php#nightly-builds) of AROS is set up for the following cpu/archs:
- m68k: amiga native
- i386: pc native, linux hosted, windows hosted, darwin(OSX) hosted
- AMD64: pc native, linux hosted
- PPC: efika native, sam440 native, linux hosted, darwin(OSX) hosted
- ARM: linux hosted
Only i386 has currently a somewhat stable ABI through the Icaros and Broadway distros but people should stop equalling AROS with i386.
greets,
Staf.
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Im more the sort of person who will judge something on it's merrits rather than dislike something because I chose something else. Sure, there has been some x86 cpu's that have been weak compared to others, but that doesnt mean x86 as a whole is bad (incidently the original celerons (apart from the 266mhz version) werent so bad vs. p2's.... thier l2 cache ran at full clock rate vs 1/2 clock rate of p2 and early p3's,.. it was only once coppermine was released that the 66mhz bus started to be a problem, but who ran thier celerons at original fsb anyway ?).
All this is neither here nor there anyway. As I said x86 of today is a far cry from x86 of yesteryear.
I'm not anti-X86. I've been using them for years, have several, and have had some great results with them. And your right about Celeron overclocking. It had some great moments. Early Celerons with full speed cache easily dusted P2s. I overclocked every generation successfully right up to the Tualatin core (1.6Ghz - faster than any PIII). The P4 based Celeron were kind of disappointing. You could overclock a 2,4 Ghz Celeron to 3.2 Ghz, but the performance was still significantly below a P4.
And I don't expect X86 OS' like AROS to fade away. Rather I think ARM will just be another branch of the Amiga OS tree.
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ARM is better suited as a destination for ports of 68K based OS' and software than X86. Yes, there are no ARM processor that match X86 in computing power, but ARM is considerably more powerful than 68K and has closed the gap in performance it had with PPCs.
ARM can be configured to run with the same endian structure as the 68K (as can most PPCs). X86 can not and suffers at least a 20% performance penalty because of that. The only reason this is not significant, is that X86 processors are already more powerful than needed to run this software.
Which brings up another point. How much CPU power do we need to run our software?
Both AOS4 and MorphOS can run on CPUs that operate below 400Mhz. Right now cheap ARM boards exist (at under $200) that run at 1Ghz. Clearly there is enough CPU power.
"I probably shouldnt be surprised to see this kind of garbage on an Amiga site though."
Why are you here if you don't think much of our opinions? This discussion was prompted by announcements made by Nvidia that they intended to compete with X86s in the desktop and server market with a new ARM design. I don't think Nvidia's ideas are foolish AND if they think they can create an ARM CPU that is powerful enough to compete in this market, well then we are going to see ARM processors that are
MORE powerful than we need (for our purposes).
Im not arguing that ARM is the wrong choice of targets. As I said already, it makes sense as a migration path for a 68k or ppc based system.
Nor am I sying ARM is bad. As I said already in this thread there's some interesting thing happening in the ARM world. All Im saying is that it gets tiring hearing the same old anti x86 garbage that's based on how x86 used to be.
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Im not arguing that ARM is the wrong choice of targets. As I said already, it makes sense as a migration path for a 68k or ppc based system.
Nor am I sying ARM is bad. As I said already in this thread there's some interesting thing happening in the ARM world. All Im saying is that it gets tiring hearing the same old anti x86 garbage that's based on how x86 used to be.
Yes I absolutely agree with you. X86 has evolved. Personally, I had no use for the original PC processors, but by the time the '386 came along their evolution was progressing nicely. Todays X86-64 processors are a completely different animal when compared to older products. X86 is cheap, powerful, and unarguably the best product currently available for most computer users.
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Yes I absolutely agree with you. X86 has evolved. Personally, I had no use for the original PC processors, but by the time the '386 came along their evolution was progressing nicely. Todays X86-64 processors are a completely different animal when compared to older products. X86 is cheap, powerful, and unarguably the best product currently available for most computer users.
It is the only choice for most computer users. That does not mean it is the best.
Interesting from TFA (even if its shmoo):
Denver frees PCs, workstations and servers from the hegemony and inefficiency of the x86 architecture. For several years, makers of high-end computing platforms have had no choice about instruction-set architecture. The only option was the x86 instruction set with variable-length instructions, a small register set, and other features that interfered with modern compiler optimizations, required a larger area for instruction decoding, and substantially reduced energy efficiency.
Denver provides a choice. System builders can now choose a high-performance processor based on a RISC instruction set with modern features such as fixed-width instructions, predication, and a large general register file. These features enable advanced compiler techniques and simplify implementation, ultimately leading to higher performance and a more energy-efficient processor.
I remember when RISC was going to be the next big thing before the Pentiums came out. It is funny to see that it has taken another 15 some odd years to come back to this. x86 is good because that is what has been crammed down our throats by a business model bent on dictating to us what we need.
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It is the only choice for most computer users. That does not mean it is the best.
Interesting from TFA (even if its shmoo):
Denver frees PCs, workstations and servers from the hegemony and inefficiency of the x86 architecture. For several years, makers of high-end computing platforms have had no choice about instruction-set architecture. The only option was the x86 instruction set with variable-length instructions, a small register set, and other features that interfered with modern compiler optimizations, required a larger area for instruction decoding, and substantially reduced energy efficiency.
Denver provides a choice. System builders can now choose a high-performance processor based on a RISC instruction set with modern features such as fixed-width instructions, predication, and a large general register file. These features enable advanced compiler techniques and simplify implementation, ultimately leading to higher performance and a more energy-efficient processor.
I remember when RISC was going to be the next big thing before the Pentiums came out. It is funny to see that it has taken another 15 some odd years to come back to this. x86 is good because that is what has been crammed down our throats by a business model bent on dictating to us what we need.
Bring back the Alpha!
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Bring back the Alpha!
Now that's funny!
RISC was supposed to be big. PPCs,, I64, Alpha, SPARC, all tried to push this forward.
Will ARM succeed where others failed? Who knows. But no one forced X86s on the market. Apple could have continued to solder on without the switch.
This situation has occurred thanks to continued development that has allowed the X86 to have a performance edge while maintaining a low cost.
The phenomenon is purely market economics in action. No great corporate conspiracies are involved here.
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Now that's funny!
RISC was supposed to be big. PPCs,, I64, Alpha, SPARC, all tried to push this forward.
Will ARM succeed where others failed? Who knows. But no one forced X86s on the market. Apple could have continued to solder on without the switch.
This situation has occurred thanks to continued development that has allowed the X86 to have a performance edge while maintaining a low cost.
The phenomenon is purely market economics in action. No great corporate conspiracies are involved here.
IIRC one of the Draco models had a slot for an Alpha CPU.
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Now that's funny!
RISC was supposed to be big. PPCs,, I64, Alpha, SPARC, all tried to push this forward.
Will ARM succeed where others failed? Who knows. But no one forced X86s on the market. Apple could have continued to solder on without the switch.
This situation has occurred thanks to continued development that has allowed the X86 to have a performance edge while maintaining a low cost.
The phenomenon is purely market economics in action. No great corporate conspiracies are involved here.
x86 benefited greatly by having AMD and Intel trying to outdo each other on the PC market. On the other side(PPC), there was no market to engage in that kind of competition.
ARM might just be able to outdo PPC there. Windows on ARM might be just what it needs. But it remains to be seen what kind of performance those ARM chips will provide and what kind of animal WinARM will be :)
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x86 benefited greatly by having AMD and Intel trying to outdo each other on the PC market. On the other side(PPC), there was no market to engage in that kind of competition.
ARM might just be able to outdo PPC there. Windows on ARM might be just what it needs. But it remains to be seen what kind of performance those ARM chips will provide and what kind of animal WinARM will be :)
Yes, you point out one of the concepts in economics I agree with. Competition benefits the consumer. X86 processor haven't succeeded totally due to market domination, if AMD hadn't kept Intel on its toes we'd still see Netburst based processors on the market.
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Wouldn't it have been great if they would have spent the the time and money that they are sinking into the X1000 on a port to ARM instead?
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Wouldn't it have been great if they would have spent the the time and money that they are sinking into the X1000 on a port to ARM instead?
Ask that again later when MorphOS is available for G5 Macs and the X1000 still isn't available for purchase.
Besides, if NG OS' move to ARM, AOS4 is likely the last one to make the transition.
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Wouldn't it have been great if they would have spent the the time and money that they are sinking into the X1000 on a port to ARM instead?
For a hobby system it would make a lot, lot more sense. Imagine paying 500, or even 1000 $ instead od 2500 or 3000 $ for your next AOS4 machine.
In fact, I can honestly say even I, a known anti OS4/MOS/AROS/OS 3.1 person:), would consider buying such a machine because I could justify the expense.
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For a hobby system it would make a lot, lot more sense. Imagine paying 500, or even 1000 $ instead od 2500 or 3000 $ for your next AOS4 machine.
In fact, I can honestly say even I, a known anti OS4/MOS/AROS/OS 3.1 person:), would consider buying such a machine because I could justify the expense.
If you are anti everything that is considered by the community as "Amiga", then why in September of 2010 did you join this Amiga community forum?
You are not "known" to us at all.
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For a hobby system it would make a lot, lot more sense. Imagine paying 500, or even 1000 $ instead od 2500 or 3000 $ for your next AOS4 machine.
In fact, I can honestly say even I, a known anti OS4/MOS/AROS/OS 3.1 person:), would consider buying such a machine because I could justify the expense.
Yes, well with G4 Powermacs at give away prices I still have trouble convincing people to try MorphOS. The funny thing is, once people do compare it, they usually rate it better than AROS or AOS4.
Then again, the 111 Euro license fee is a little steep.
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Then again, the 111 Euro license fee is a little steep.
You win one understatement :lol:
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If you are anti everything that is considered by the community as "Amiga", then why in September of 2010 did you join this Amiga community forum?
You are not "known" to us at all.
Well, let's just say I'm a amigan but of different breed to the current amiga community over here. :)
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In fact, I can honestly say even I, a known anti OS4/MOS/AROS/OS 3.1 person:), would consider buying such a machine because I could justify the expense.
So, uh, what Amiga operating system do you prefer? Amix? Minimalist demoscene bootloaders?
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Well, let's just say I'm a amigan but of different breed to the current amiga community over here. :)
I can get behind that. I have no legacy hardware and use MorphOS exclusively, but I still consider myself an amigan.
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The phenomenon is purely market economics in action. No great corporate conspiracies are involved here.
None other than the normal type of corporate behavior that involves destroying the competition by any means necessary and delivering the least amount of innovation at the maximum price point that the market will bear.
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Then again, the 111 Euro license fee is a little steep.
The biggest problem with MOS and AOS4 is that one needs dedicated hardware to try it out. Especially with AOS4. MOS less so, but you still need to buy a used Apple machine to even be able to have a go at it. At least with AROS or any other x86 OS one can always check it out and see how things are progressing without any major hardware investment.
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Well, let's just say I'm a amigan but of different breed to the current amiga community over here. :)
So who are you then?
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None other than the normal type of corporate behavior that involves destroying the competition by any means necessary and delivering the least amount of innovation at the maximum price point that the market will bear.
Now that's not an unfair statement. Intel and Microsoft have both played at that game. The SEC has investigated plenty of that behavior.
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x86 benefited greatly by having AMD and Intel trying to outdo each other on the PC market. On the other side(PPC), there was no market to engage in that kind of competition.
ARM might just be able to outdo PPC there. Windows on ARM might be just what it needs. But it remains to be seen what kind of performance those ARM chips will provide and what kind of animal WinARM will be :)
As of January of this year, a total of 15 billion ARM processors have shipped. I think they are doing pretty well.
For the majority of people, life is about embedded devices, not clunky PC's.
Whether microsoft can actually adapt to that will be interesting.
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On Microsoft, has this occurred to anyone?
If Microsoft supports ARM with Windows 8 and Amiga NG OS' are ported to ARM, it may be possible using virtualization software to run Windows and an Amigiod OS simultaneously on the same computer.
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I ported both dosbox and bochs to aros, so have used windows on an amigoid system more than a few times already :) Sure it's not virtualised, but still more than usable. Without doing any specific benchmarks Id hazzard a guess at bochs being somewhere between a high end 486 and low end p1, and dosbox being somewhere between a high end p1 and low end p2 on my aros box. Dosbox has a jit style emulation for x86 targets, so is quite nippy.
Backtracking a few posts though,...... x86 being at the highest price point the market will bare ? Huh? x86 is by an absolute mile the best bang per buck cpu on the market.
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x86 is fine for performance, and it's true that it's come a long way since the 8086, it's still ugly as hell under the hood - the "four sort-of-but-not-really general-purpose registers" approach was obnoxious back in the day, and it's downright inexcusable now, with not only modern architectures but even the original 68000 providing a full complement of interchangeable registers. And it hasn't improved, either - they've just kept expanding the register width. Granted, a compiler can work out a good approach for shuffling values into and out of the registers, but for those of us who like assembler, it's pure aggravation.
1994 was just calling, they want their technical info back.
From wikipedia:
With the advent of the 32-bit 80386 processor, the 16-bit general-purpose registers, base registers, index registers, instruction pointer, and FLAGS register, but not the segment registers, were expanded to 32 bits. This is represented by prefixing an "E" (for Extended) to the register names in x86 assembly language. Thus, the AX register corresponds to the lowest 16 bits of the new 32-bit EAX register, SI corresponds to the lowest 16 bits of ESI, and so on. The general-purpose registers, base registers, and index registers can all be used as the base in addressing modes, and all of those registers except for the stack pointer can be used as the index in addressing modes.
Two new segment registers (FS and GS) were added. With a greater number of registers, instructions and operands, the machine code format was expanded. To provide backward compatibility, segments with executable code can be marked as containing either 16-bit or 32-bit instructions. Special prefixes allow inclusion of 32-bit instructions in a 16-bit segment or vice versa.
With the 80486 a floating-point processing unit (FPU) was added, with eight 80-bit wide registers.[17]
With the Pentium II, eight 64-bit MMX integer registers were added (MMX0..MMX7, which share lower bits with the 80-bit-wide FPU stack (st(0)..st(7))).[17] With the Pentium III, a 32-bit Streaming SIMD Extension (SSE) control/status register (MXCSR) and eight 128-bit SSE floating point registers (XMM0..XMM7) were added.
And that again increased with the advent of X64 (AMD Athlon64 onwards).
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Okay, my mistake. Are they really general-purpose, though? Looks from that excerpt like it's more just the gradual integration of specialized coprocessor hardware into the CPU than actual additional registers.
I'll still take either the 68k or ARM for assembler programming, in any case.
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Now that's funny!
RISC was supposed to be big.
In a sense they became what everyone suspected they would since at the heart of any modern X86/x86-64 processor is a risc core hooked up to some logic that provides compatibility with the x86 instruction set.
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Okay, my mistake. Are they really general-purpose, though? Looks from that excerpt like it's more just the gradual integration of specialized coprocessor hardware into the CPU than actual additional registers.
Well the excerpt is from here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_architecture#x86_registers) although I imagine there are much more technical resources out there or linked to within the article that would be better suited to answering your questions.
I'll still take either the 68k or ARM for assembler programming, in any case.
What about MIPS?
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Haven't tried it...
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1994 was just calling, they want their technical info back.
From wikipedia:
Most of that is still mostly consistent with what you were replying to: A small number of "almost but not quite" general purpose registers for integer ops and logic.
And that again increased with the advent of X64 (AMD Athlon64 onwards).
... but only for 64 bit code. And you still carry along the whole messy old legacy. x86_64 is *much* better, it's almost tolerable. But it's still far uglier than m68k from an assembly programming point of view. Not that that matters for most people these days, though, since there aren't many of us left that actually write any reasonable amount of asm (I mainly do for my compiler backends).
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Most of that is still mostly consistent with what you were replying to: A small number of "almost but not quite" general purpose registers for integer ops and logic.
... but only for 64 bit code. And you still carry along the whole messy old legacy. x86_64 is *much* better, it's almost tolerable. But it's still far uglier than m68k from an assembly programming point of view. Not that that matters for most people these days, though, since there aren't many of us left that actually write any reasonable amount of asm (I mainly do for my compiler backends).
Everything is ugly compared to 68k assembly.
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Everything is ugly compared to 68k assembly.
I still have a soft spot for 6502 assembly... It's beautiful for its simplicity. Then again, of course it can't compete in actual usability.
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I still have a soft spot for 6502 assembly... It's beautiful for its simplicity. Then again, of course it can't compete in actual usability.
It definitely has it's own charm, but then again I have a weird pseudo-masochistic fondness for 8086 real mode assembly. :lol:
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It definitely has it's own charm, but then again I have a weird pseudo-masochistic fondness for 8086 real mode assembly. :lol:
Ewwww.... That sounds about as much fun as self-flagellation to me.
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http://www.menuetos.net/
Just goes to show how much bloat is in ANY modern hardware system, and that you can still touch the switches (if you're really demented that is :) )
a 64 bit OS that fits on a floppy. This project sums up the laziness of the last 20 years to me nicely.
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http://www.menuetos.net/
Just goes to show how much bloat is in ANY modern hardware system, and that you can still touch the switches (if you're really demented that is :) )
a 64 bit OS that fits on a floppy. This project sums up the laziness of the last 20 years to me nicely.
I believe it's the Kolibri OS(a fork of Menuetos) that fits on the floppy.
A nice project. But with today's resources at hand, completely irrelevant.
http://www.kolibrios.org/
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It definitely has it's own charm, but then again I have a weird pseudo-masochistic fondness for 8086 real mode assembly. :lol:
Wow! You really ARE into pain!. Personally (as I've said before) I like 6809 assembly, and then there is 68HC11 assembly (for micro controllers), and (of course) you're right 68K assembly code is probably the last that was understandable.
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A nice project. But with today's resources at hand, completely irrelevant.
Elimination of waste is never irrelevant.
Also, real mode 8086 isn't that bad - if you think of it as an 8-bit processor kludged up to 16-bit. The biggest problem is the 8-bit-style "not actually general-purpose" register file - they're all interchangeable for basic math and logic, but the minute you start on any of the special-purpose instructions (by which I mean "basically everything else") you have to start keeping track of which registers can do what and juggling accordingly. People complain about segmented memory, but that's far less annoying.
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Guys, this ARM thing isn't just about nVidias Denver project, not at all!
Did you even look at the Windows @ ARM video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKc_XGuvNIk
That's on *current* technology, not the ones 3 year away (but it's of course a good thing that a long term evolution plan exists, that's what I mean by ARM having a great support and momentum! :))
The current stuff is actually great! :) And even on short term (within this year!) we will see new generations of ARM CPU's rolling out! This is the road map from Freescale:
Freescale i.MX Road Map (http://i52.tinypic.com/9ld543.png)
Of course the other ARM CPU manufacturers have similar Road Maps (but maybe different philosophies on the included support controllers, etc)!
Genesi is already working (http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2010/12/hello-world.html) with a new, multi-purpose i.MX53 based motherboard (a single motherboard that can be used in various applications, like pads, laptops, desktops, etc). And while this still is based on Cortex-A8, it will probably be clocked faster than the current Genesi products (although that is a guess from my side), and have upgraded support controllers to do full HD (among other things)! It will also make things a lot cheaper than it already is! Even more power, for even less money! :)
Sure, nVidia has announced "that it plans to build high-performance ARM® based CPU cores, designed to support future products ranging from personal computers and servers to workstations and supercomputers". And that surely bodes well for the future, since others will follow as well! This promise real, heavy performance, never before seen in ARM territory! :) However, ARM is *already* being used in low power servers in data centers, and while the market is young, the future is bright and big companies like Dell and IBM are very positive. And did you see Windows run, play media and run Office on the current ARM based machines in the MS demonstration above? Looks very good! Heck, current cheap, low power ARM CPU's could even be used to build super computers, like IBM did with their BlueGene by building a new system architecture around an array of simplified PowerPC 440 cores.
Add to that the future roadmaps of first the Cortex-A9 and then the Cortex-A15 that will over time bring:
• Speeds beyond 2.5GHz+, 14,000+ DMIPS
• 1-4X SMP within a single processor cluster
• Multiple coherent SMP processor clusters through AMBA® 4 technology
• ARM ISA
• Thumb-2
• TrustZone® security technology
• NEON™ Advanced SIMD
• DSP & SIMD extensions
• VFPv4 Floating point
• Jazelle® RCT
• Hardware virtualization support
• Large Physical Address Extensions (LPAE), meaning up to 1TB memory
Add to that all the various controllers that individual CPU manufacturers chooses to add. So I'd say that ARM is definitely breaking out of its old boundaries, with or without nVidia's Denver!
:)
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If you are anti everything that is considered by the community as "Amiga", then why in September of 2010 did you join this Amiga community forum?
You are not "known" to us at all.
I have no care about contemporary "amiga like" OSs at all myself, which doesn't mean I don't like Amiga, in a *UAE box, playing, having fun and almost dropping a few tears from time to time.
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Add to that all the various controllers that individual CPU manufacturers chooses to add.
For example, Key technical features of Freescale's newly announced i.MX6 CPU's include:
• Industry-leading four-core design
• Up to four ARM Cortex-A9 cores running at up to 1.2 GHz per core
• Up to 1 MB system level 2 cache
• ARMv7, Neon, VFPv3 and Trustzone support
• Multistream-capable HD video engine delivering 1080p60 decode, 1080p30 encode and 3D video playback in HD
• Exceptional 3D graphics performance with quad shaders for up to 200 MTPS
• Separate 2D and vertex acceleration engines for uncompromised user interface experiences
• Stereoscopic image sensor support for 3D imaging
• Interconnect: HDMI v1.4 w/ integrated PHY, SD3.0, multiple USB 2.0 ports w/ integrated PHY, Gb Ethernet w/ integrated PHY, SATA-II w/ integrated PHY, PCI-e w/ integrated PHY, MIPI CSI, MIPI DSI, MIPI HSI, and FlexCAN for automotive applications
• Support for the VP8 codec (See related thread here on MZ! (http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7678&forum=3))
• Support for one of the broadest ranges of major operating system platforms in the industry
• Optional integration of an ePaper display controller for eReader and similar applications
http://androidandme.com/2011/01/news/freescale-announces-new-low-power-multicore-processors/
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?code=IMX6X_SERIES
http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/fact_sheet/IMX6SRSFS.pdf
:)
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Meanwhile, I continue to follow Genesi's developments with great interest!
They are really supported by Freescale, now probably more than ever. They even have a Freescale vanity page now: www.freescale.com/genesi (http://www.freescale.com/genesi)! :)
There are two interesting videos in their latest blog, one is showing a Genesi ARM computer with one of the amazing Pixel Qi screens bolted on, that will be optional in future Genesi products:
http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2011/01/new-year-ces-and-lots-more.html
:)
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Yes, I do expect Microsoft to support more than Nvidia ARM hardware too. After all, the initial announcement by Microsoft mentioned three companies (Nvidia was only one of them).
Since one company that was mentioned was TI I expect to see Win 8 support for TI's OMAP processors (like the one included on the PandaBoard I've mentioned before).
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...with today's resources at hand, completely irrelevant
wow.
(http://arthropoda.southernfriedscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/facepalm.jpg)
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wow.
(http://arthropoda.southernfriedscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/facepalm.jpg)
care to explain why should anyone write their OS completely in asm code in a world of multicore GHz CPUs and storage that sizes in TBs.... instead of putting up various pictures?
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...
takemehomegrandma, care to explain Genesi's relation to MorphOS... I haven't been following MorphOS that closely so I'd like to know more about that. I noticed there's Genesi's subsection on the MorphZone.
edit: Sorry, I've meant takemehomegrandma, not Iggy... but seeing both of you use MorphOS so I guess both of you could also answer me... I guess :)
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care to explain why should anyone write their OS completely in asm code in a world of multicore GHz CPUs and storage that sizes in TBs.... instead of putting up various pictures?
The challenge of doing so. Menuette is very cool as projects go.
But beyond that just because you have multicore cpus doesn't mean you shouldn't or needn't bother with optimising code. The major growth area in terms of development is in portable computing, starting with smart phones and continuing with tablets and netbooks. Heavy, unoptimised programs don't just mean poor performance, but decimation of battery life.
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takemehomegrandma, care to explain Genesi's relation to MorphOS... I haven't been following MorphOS that closely so I'd like to know more about that. I noticed there's Genesi's subsection on the MorphZone.
edit: Sorry, I've meant takemehomegrandma, not Iggy... but seeing both of you use MorphOS so I guess both of you could also answer me... I guess :)
There is no longer any connection between Genesi and MorphOS. They are two totally seperate things.
No support either way any more as far as I know
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But beyond that just because you have multicore cpus doesn't mean you shouldn't or needn't bother with optimising code. The major growth area in terms of development is in portable computing, starting with smart phones and continuing with tablets and netbooks. Heavy, unoptimised programs don't just mean poor performance, but decimation of battery life.
I agree partially, but one should also note that today's compiler's do a pretty fine job of optimizing output asm code. Probably better then 99% of programmers who would try to replace them with a manually written asm/machine code. If one writes a elegant, properly structured program in a higher-level language such as C or JAVA, one will have a responsive program... Simple as that. No need to use asm today.
I agree that Kolibri and MenuetOS are neat projects. But if I wanted to code a OS from scratch, in 99% of situations I'd have to be heavily dosed with a powerful toxic to choose asm over C/C++.
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There is no longer any connection between Genesi and MorphOS. They are two totally seperate things.
No support either way any more as far as I know
I wonder if that could change if MorphOS goes ARM. It would be a great thing for MorphOS.
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I agree partially, but one should also note that today's compiler's do a pretty fine job of optimizing output asm code. Probably better then 99% of programmers who would try to replace them with a manually written asm/machine code. If one writes a elegant, properly structured program in a higher-level language such as C or JAVA, one will have a responsive program... Simple as that. No need to use asm today.
Tell me, when the assembly programmers have finished with you, where do you want me to send the flowers? ;)
There are plenty of instances where being able to use asm is not only handy, but very necessary. Many small industrial micro controllers for instance.
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Tell me, when the assembly programmers have finished with you, where do you want me to send the flowers? ;)
There are plenty of instances where being able to use asm is not only handy, but very necessary. Many small industrial micro controllers for instance.
I haven't said I'd get rid of them completely nor have I mentioned microcontrollers... Just that it is not needed to code a OS or applications 100% in assembler.
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There is no longer any connection between Genesi and MorphOS. They are two totally seperate things.
No support either way any more as far as I know
No recent support, but a valued former partner.
From :MorphZone:
http://bounties.morphzone.org/
"Highest Donations...Genesi...Site Maintenance..."
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(http://www.genesi-usa.com/data/get/445) (http://www.genesi-usa.com/data/get/401)
These would be great to run MorphOS on...
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I haven't said I'd get rid of them completely
No you stated that it was completely irrelevant due to today's computing power.
Just that it is not needed to code a OS or applications 100% in assembler.
I don't think anyone said it is necessary, only that it is an interesting project to see just what it can be made to do as far as choice of computing language, as Karlos has said many times, pick the right language for the right job.
The reason you got the response you did was because what you wrote read like an excuse to code poorly as well as a complete blanket dismissal of asm.
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Just because you see no value in the optimization of code for an application doesn't mean the rest of the world shares your view. In other words, Wolf, I do not share in your ignorance and frankly am shocked by it. I will chalk it up to either a poor upbringing or youth.
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The reason you got the response you did was because what you wrote read like an excuse to code poorly as well as a complete blanket dismissal of asm.
This.
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Crap code is the refuge of corporations with customer bases willing to pay repeatedly for deteriorating performance and non-existing feature improvements.
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Just because you see no value in the optimization of code for an application doesn't mean the rest of the world shares your view..
I never said that...
In other words, Wolf, I do not share in your ignorance and frankly am shocked by it
I'm shocked you would consider writing an entire OS or any application in asm as a guarantee of better performance or more optimized code. I also doubt many programmers could manually write more optimized code then today's compilers. And ultimatively, spending resources of doing so is questionable in most applications(while I agree it's mandatory in some others).
I never said I'm anti-asm in general.
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There is no longer any connection between Genesi and MorphOS. They are two totally seperate things.
No support either way any more as far as I know
Even though Genesi indeed has nothing to do with MorphOS development past v1.4 (2004?), I believe Genesi's stance (from the past) is that they own MorphOS 1.4 in full. But when they stopped paying for MorphOS development, they said something in the lines of "Go ahead and continue developing MorphOS in any way you like, release it for any platform you like (even for AmigaOne(! Shock! Horror! ;)))" etc.
That has pretty much been the connection since then. Genesi has a silent claim for MorphOS 1.4, while the MorphOS Team freely went on far beyond that, the entire relevant Mac PPC platform has almost entirely been conquered, and MorphOS 2.7 has come a long way since then! At one point (as a prequel to the 5121e/"LimePC" development), Genesi paid for a port to Efika PPC, and that's why the Efika has been a supported platform sine MorphOS 2.0.
From Genesi's Point of View, I have no clue to whether MorphOS could play *any practical role whatsoever* in a Genesi future on ARM today? Probably not! Genesi has Linux/Android/ChromiumOS/Whatever, as well as all the relevant applications and "real" standards, official Flash support, etc, etc.
AFAIK, MorphOS is today being developed entirely on a hobby basis. On PPC only, for practical reasons mostly I guess.
But if the MorphOS Team would expand their ambitions regarding CPU architecture, I actually *do* think that Genesi and bPlan (and *Freescale* through them) would *actively assist* them in many ways! Through documentation, knowledge, experience, etc. Through early development hardware? Etc...
In *that* sense, I believe that the connection that still exists would be beneficial! :)
Otherwise I think it's just as you say JJ, "There is no longer any connection between Genesi and MorphOS"
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Crap code is the refuge of corporations with customer bases willing to pay repeatedly for deteriorating performance and non-existing feature improvements.
This.
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I'm shocked you would consider writing an entire OS or any application in asm as a guarantee of better performance or more optimized code.
There are no "guarantees" in anything. The performance is demonstrably better. An OS that will run a DVD on a 386. Display 16M colors. Play MP3s
I also doubt many programmers could manually write more optimized code then today's compilers. And ultimatively, spending resources of doing so is questionable in most applications(while I agree it's mandatory in some others). I never said I'm anti-asm in general.
Which compiler? GCC? SAS/C? I hope you aren't including Java in your list. It is already obvious you didn't even bother to read WHY the project was doing what they were doing. If you aren't anti-asm, what are you? If you are going to speak to technical things you know nothing about, spend the 45 seconds to read what its all about before jumping in the deep end with your inanity.
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There are no "guarantees" in anything. The performance is demonstrably better. An OS that will run a DVD on a 386. Display 16M colors. Play MP3s
Are you sure on this? Menuet/Kolibri run on a 386, but the site doesn't seem to say what kind of hardware those screencaps were from...
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(http://www.genesi-usa.com/data/get/445) (http://www.genesi-usa.com/data/get/401)
These would be great to run MorphOS on...
Yes, indeed they would! :)
But perhaps even more their respective i.MX53 Sequals! (http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2010/12/hello-world.html)
:)
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Are you sure on this? Menuet/Kolibri run on a 386, but the site doesn't seem to say what kind of hardware those screencaps were from...
it sure does
Development computer:
- AMD Athlon 64 3000+ 2,0 Ghz
- Asus K8N
- 512 DDR DIMM
- Radeon 7000 32MB SDR AGP TV-OUT
- Logitech PS/2 keyboard Y-BF37
- Logitech PS/2 mouse M-SBF96
http://www.menuetos.net/download.htm
and list of tested hardware
http://www.menuetos.net/hwc.txt
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Seeing Windows running on ARM makes me weep for the Future.
Microsoft should be forced to only supply freeware OSs after all th shit tey've got away thanks to the pricks AKA American judges letting them get off with everything.
What a horrible world if Windows really is everywhere! Makes Bladerunner look like a comedy!
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Are you sure on this? Menuet/Kolibri run on a 386, but the site doesn't seem to say what kind of hardware those screencaps were from...
not even remotely the point I was trying to convey, but since you asked:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010722211251/http://www.menuetos.org/
they have obviously set their sights higher, to P1s with 90Mhz, if you browse their forum. It seems none of the current batch of users have tested the modern arch on a 386.
DOUBLE EDIT: Wolf is right on the current pics - link I provided was to an earlier arch running on a 386.
DOUBLE DOUBLE EDIT: It also seems that they are only posting specs for their 64bit version anymore.
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Seeing Windows running on ARM makes me weep for the Future.
Nah...
:-(
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x86 is good because that is what has been crammed down our throats by a business model bent on dictating to us what we need.
:roflmao:
Exactly how I feel about it, always been a big fan of RISC myself, would love to see a NG Amiga OS on a RISC based system.
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I never said that...
I'm shocked you would consider writing an entire OS or any application in asm as a guarantee of better performance or more optimized code. I also doubt many programmers could manually write more optimized code then today's compilers. And ultimatively, spending resources of doing so is questionable in most applications(while I agree it's mandatory in some others).
I never said I'm anti-asm in general.
Compilers are written by programmer and their optimization algorythm are only as good as the one who wrote them.
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:roflmao:
Exactly how I feel about it, always been a big fan of RISC myself, would love to see a NG Amiga OS on a RISC based system.
So why discount x86? The heart of which is a RISC core and has been since around the time of the Cyrix 5x86. As far as I'm aware all currently produced x86 and x86-64 processors take this approach.
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So why discount x86? The heart of which is a RISC core and has been since around the time of the Cyrix 5x86. As far as I'm aware all currently produced x86 and x86-64 processors take this approach.
I don't get this trashing of x86 that usually happens on amiga forums?
It's cheap, it's fast, it gets less and less power hungry with every new version. Yet, it's still heavily criticized by some amigans, as far as I see, mostly by no other reason other for not being PPC or 68K(that is, not powering any official amigaOS hardware).
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I don't get this trashing of x86 that usually happens on amiga forums?
From the older set, by that I mean those of us who were using Amigas during their heyday it is somewhat understandable - Microsoft quickly replaced Atari as "the enemy". Watching technically superior hardware and software overrun by the PC industry with equipment that was "good enough" but quickly evolving was hard to do.
For those who came after C='s demise, especially with those who only showed up around the very late 90's onwards, I must confess I'm a little confused myself. Perhaps some of the zeal is down to wanting to be outside the mainstream, so as to gain a sense of superiority from those using commodity hardware. Tbh I suspect Moto would be your best bet in getting a properly thought out explanation.
It's cheap, it's fast, it gets less and less power hungry with every new version. Yet, it's still heavily criticized by some amigans, as far as I see, mostly by no other reason other for not being PPC or 68K(that is, not powering any official amigaOS hardware).
Thing is though X86 was available for the Amiga in the form of Amithlon or if you really want to press the point, on a bridge board that could be plugged into a zorro slot equipped Amiga.
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So why discount x86? The heart of which is a RISC core and has been since around the time of the Cyrix 5x86. As far as I'm aware all currently produced x86 and x86-64 processors take this approach.
This is true, but it's still a RISC core tethered to a CISC architecture that's gotten very kludged up with legacy cruft over the 32 years it's been around. If they'd open up the internal architecture for program access, new software could use the full power of the RISC core.
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I don't get this trashing of x86 that usually happens on amiga forums?
It's cheap, it's fast, it gets less and less power hungry with every new version. Yet, it's still heavily criticized by some amigans, as far as I see, mostly by no other reason other for not being PPC or 68K(that is, not powering any official amigaOS hardware).
Because the PowerPC was for the last 13 years, the technology that made our hobby - Amiga - interesting.
Amiga Os is a system which, due to Forbid/Permit, messages system, can not work effectively on more than one core.
Thats why, transfer of the operating system to x86, ARM or other crap will not bring major changes in performance.
Performance of one core, the fastest x86 is only 2.9 times better than the G4. x86 is not even three times faster, only two of something.
We do not intend to sell 13 years of our history, for peanuts.
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Because the PowerPC was for the last 13 years, the technology that made our hobby - Amiga - interesting.
Amiga Os is a system which, due to Forbid/Permit, messages system, can not work effectively on more than one core.
Thats why, transfer of the operating system to x86, ARM or other crap will not bring major changes in performance.
Performance of one core, the fastest x86 is only 2.9 times better than the G4. x86 is not even three times faster, only two of something.
We do not intend to sell 13 years of our history, for peanuts.
God forbid one should suggest to remedy some of those faults... :laughing:
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Because the PowerPC was for the last 13 years, the technology that made our hobby - Amiga - interesting.
X86 has made - AROS - interesting.
That is why morons like you should understand that people feel sympathy for this technology.
Name calling really justified? No it's not.
Amiga Os is a system which, due to Forbid/Permit, messages system, can not work effectively on more than one core.
Truism, I think the Hyperion team will find this out with attempting to drag OS4 into AMP.
Thats why, transfer of the operating system to x86, ARM or other crap will not bring major changes in performance.
Then why is AROS flying on x86 then?
Performance of one core, the fastest x86 is only 2.9 times better than the G4. x86 is not even three times faster, only two of something.
Last CPU comparison chart I saw shows G5 is about equal to a 1.8GHz Athlon.
We do not intend to sell 13 years of our history, for peanuts.
Who's history? AROS has been on x86 for what, 15 years now? AROS is slowly coming to ARM and 68K as well as PPC. Why aren't the other Amiga-like OSs been ported yet to other arches?
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Who's history? AROS has been on x86 for what, 15 years now? AROS is slowly coming to ARM and 68K as well as PPC. Why aren't the other Amiga-like OSs been ported yet to other arches?
I wonder what repercussions will be felt after AROS68K is released in a stable version.
It is obvious most of the current Amiga users and devs are still on the 68K platform and most of the software is there also. AROS68K might just turn out to be far, far more serious competition to AOS4 and MOS then it's x86 version ever was, especially if Natami is released(and I figure, AROS68K will also mean more 68K hardware in the future).
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:roflmao:
Exactly how I feel about it, always been a big fan of RISC myself, would love to see a NG Amiga OS on a RISC based system.
PPCs are RISC processors, so there are already two RISC based Amiga NG OS'.
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X86 has made - AROS - interesting.
AROS is not Amiga, AROS is untested, not working crap.
Name calling really justified? No it's not.
Quality and compatybility justified.
AROS is incompatible because it was developed without any testing of existing 68k software.
Truism, I think the Hyperion team will find this out with attempting to drag OS4 into AMP.
I'll believe it when I see it.
Then why is AROS flying on x86 then?
Windows fly on my pc, linux fly on my pc, AROS move slow like a turtle on my pc. This shit is running on one core only, and on my Atlhon X2 64 is as fast as my G4.
Last CPU comparison chart I saw shows G5 is about equal to a 1.8GHz Athlon.
Like I said.
Who's history?
Amiga History of course.
AROS has been on x86 for what, 15 years now?
And how much of that time, this system worked on the Amiga?
Three months?
Blizzard PPC card Cyberstorm PPC we can enjoy for 13 years.
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It is obvious most of the current Amiga users and devs are still on the 68K platform and most of the software is there also.
Why is it obvious? It is not so obvious to me at least.
AROS68K might just turn out to be far, far more serious competition to AOS4 and MOS then it's x86 version ever was, especially if Natami is released
Don't think so. Classic Amigas have just not enough computing power to be a serious competition for MorphOS and AmigaOS 4. Natami (if ever released), won't help much.
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Don't think so. Classic Amigas have just not enough computing power to be a serious competition for MorphOS and AmigaOS 4. Natami (if ever released), won't help much.
I may be wrong, but I think that aros68k will also run on PPC machines, so maybe the OP was referring to this fact (ie, AROS will run on anything from classics to the X1000 to an I7).
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I may be wrong, but I think that aros68k will also run on PPC machines, so maybe the OP was referring to this fact (ie, AROS will run on anything from classics to the X1000 to an I7).
AROS PPC runs on Sam440. AFAIK, AROS68K, like it name says, will only run on 68K machines.
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Why is it obvious? It is not so obvious to me at least.
Don't think so. Classic Amigas have just not enough computing power to be a serious competition for MorphOS and AmigaOS 4. Natami (if ever released), won't help much.
I dont really think there's any real competition. People who are into this stuff seem to check out multiple options, and people who aren't into amiga, don't care about any of the options.
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AROS is not Amiga, AROS is untested, not working crap.
Worked fine for me for the past six or so years. Funny that.
Quality and compatybility justified.
With UAE integration, compatibility is not a issue anymore.
AROS is incompatible because it was developed without any testing of existing 68k software.
It didn't need to be, it was a OS blazing a new trail in the x86 world. What it needed was the UAE integration for running AOS games/apps which should have been done years ago. I guess it's better late then never.
I'll believe it when I see it.
Fair enough.
Windows fly on my pc, linux fly on my pc, AROS move slow like a turtle on my pc. This shit is running on one core only, and on my Atlhon X2 64 is as fast as my G4.
AROS was plenty snappy running on my old Dell Latitude 233MHz laptop. It was blazingly fast on my old 1.4GHz noname laptop. I wonder what is h0rked on your box.
Like I said.
Amiga History of course.
And how much of that time, this system worked on the Amiga?
Three months?
Natively on a Amiga68K machine, probably a bit less. I will point out that no other Amigaoid OS is running on a stock A1200, except for AROS. There was a native AROS68K in unmaintained section of the AROS SVN for the last seven plus years. There was work on it, just never maintained while AROS x86 and AROS PPC went forward in development.
Blizzard PPC card Cyberstorm PPC we can enjoy for 13 years.
Will that same PPC software run on a stock A1200? I don't think so. Neither OS4 nor MOS will run on a stock A1200 but AROS will but that doesn't seem to gain any favor from you.
Dammy
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Curious:
When you say "stock A1200" do you mean "68K machine with extra ram etc" or "A1200 with 2 megs chip ram" ?
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I'm kind of curious about the opinions of those of you who see AROS68K as significant to legacy hardware.
I can see the utility of AROS68K for the Natami and other powerful re-implementations of the Amiga, but what does it bring to older machine's. What advantages does it have?
And as a PPC user I don't think I have a lot to worry about if you think legacy hardware is going to become competitive with this OS. I'm not sure the Natami will be truly competitive. Sure it would be nice to own one, but I don't see it replacing a more modern computer.
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I'm kind of curious about the opinions of those of you who see AROS68K as significant to legacy hardware.
It doesn't bring much to the legacy hardware, but it could bring new software, new features, add stability and possibly enable easier manufacturing of new 68K hardware.
The biggest significance of AROS 68K is that it could improve the experience of using classics and that is still the biggest "market" in the Amiga world. Most devs, most users. Simple as that.
AROS doesn't make much "sense" in the x86 or ARM world. It was fashioned over OS 3.1 and that makes it totally uncompetitive in that markets, except for the Amigans(most of which, again, own 68K machines). But on 68K it could become a new standard and like I said, it' where the biggest market is.
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The biggest significance of AROS 68K is that it could improve the experience of using classics and that is still the biggest "market" in the Amiga world. Most devs, most users. Simple as that.
AROS doesn't make much "sense" in the x86 or ARM world. It was fashioned over OS 3.1 and that makes it totally uncompetitive in that markets, except for the Amigans(most of which, again, own 68K machines). But on 68K it could become a new standard and like I said, it' where the biggest market is.
I'm curious about these markets you are refering to.
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I'm curious about these markets you are refering to.
Well, it's simple... the biggest user group is still 68K, by far...
And as a PPC user I don't think I have a lot to worry about if you think legacy hardware is going to become competitive with this OS. I'm not sure the Natami will be truly competitive. Sure it would be nice to own one, but I don't see it replacing a more modern computer.
No, legacy hardware will not be comparable with AROS68K to PPC hardware. Only if Freescale decides to issue new 68K hardware, which is as possible as me winning lottery, or possibly new ColdFire hardware, which may be slightly more possible then me winning lottery(whihc, btw, I don't even play :lol:).
No, ti will not replace a modern computer, but, IMHO, the Amiga today(classics, PPC, x86) is a hobby, if passionate one, but not a replacement for a modern computer.
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Im not going to name anyone, but it's amazing to see how many "amigans" seem to be more or less clueless about the very system they defend. It's also disappointing to see others trash amiga based systems they clearly dont use or know about, but will still happily talk rubbish about.
For a "community" that touts itself as being technoligcally savvy there sure is a large portion that is clueless (even if they like to think otherwise).
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Im not going to name anyone, but it's amazing to see how many "amigans" seem to be more or less clueless about the very system they defend. It's also disappointing to see others trash amiga based systems they clearly dont use or know about, but will still happily talk rubbish about.
For a "community" that touts itself as being technoligcally savvy there sure is a large portion that is clueless (even if they like to think otherwise).
Its kind of a microcosm of computer users in general ;)
You get the people who are classic hardware only
You get the Morph and OS4 and AROS people
You get the people who are here only to point out that amiga is dead (linux geeks, windows tools and mac fanboys included here)
and probably one atari guy who's too afraid to speak up, lest we all unite against him :D
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Hey, sorry if this has been posted before (i didn't search because i don't really care too much about arm stuff)
anywhooo I came across this site whist searching for casemod stuff and its only 150bucks. and it has opengl, may be cool for what you guys are talking about.
http://beagleboard.org/hardware
its called the beagleboard and it has some pretty cool specs (maybe i will get interested in arm)
actually here is the main site they have one available for 125. oh and this thing runs linux.
http://beagleboard.org/
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ok now i searched and you guys got it covered.
sooo now I know about the beagleboard.
geeze it's tiny
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Hey, sorry if this has been posted before (i didn't search because i don't really care too much about arm stuff)
anywhooo I came across this site whist searching for casemod stuff and its only 150bucks. and it has opengl, may be cool for what you guys are talking about.
http://beagleboard.org/hardware
its called the beagleboard and it has some pretty cool specs (maybe i will get interested in arm)
actually here is the main site they have one available for 125. oh and this thing runs linux.
http://beagleboard.org/
I'm impressed by the graphics... nearly Geforce2 speed. Run a resource lean OS like Amiga on it and you have a late 90s era gaming rig.
If we can concentrate on the essentials: web browser and plenty of driver support. Photo and video editing. You've then got the basic appliance which passes as a modern computer. Minus the resource hogging Windows. btw my Ubuntu 9.04 install uses about half the resources of even Windows XP.
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I'm impressed by the graphics... nearly Geforce2 speed. Run a resource lean OS like Amiga on it and you have a late 90s era gaming rig.
If we can concentrate on the essentials: web browser and plenty of driver support. Photo and video editing. You've then got the basic appliance which passes as a modern computer. Minus the resource hogging Windows. btw my Ubuntu 9.04 install uses about half the resources of even Windows XP.
If you think Ubuntu 9.04 is resource light, give Arch a whirl :D
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Yes, we've discussed the BeagleBoard before and if you look at earlier posts in this thread you'll see a reference I made to a more powerful, similarly sized product called the PandaBoard.
There are a lot of small ARM based systems.
And Nvidia's planning on moving the ISA to desktops and servers.
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hmmmm... one of this would fit very easily into an a1200 case leaving tons of room for other stuff.
ill have to check out the pandaboard
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It should be noted this new version of the beagleboard "the BeagleBoard-xM" has much more interesting graphics hardware than the original. TI OMAP 3530 supports HD video, OpenGL ES...
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The newer version "BeagleBoard-XM" is more interesting than the older version. Nice to see a variety of ARM development options to choose from these days.
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Hey, sorry if this has been posted before (i didn't search because i don't really care too much about arm stuff)
anywhooo I came across this site whist searching for casemod stuff and its only 150bucks. and it has opengl, may be cool for what you guys are talking about.
http://beagleboard.org/hardware
its called the beagleboard and it has some pretty cool specs (maybe i will get interested in arm)
actually here is the main site they have one available for 125. oh and this thing runs linux.
http://beagleboard.org/
You may want to look at EFIKA-MX http://www.genesi-usa.com/products/efika since it has case, more RAM, 8GB SSD and other perks that will drive Beagleboards total cost upwards.
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I was VERY interested in the Beagle Board this summer. So interested, I was about to get one myself.
You guys say it has all kind of apps. Are you talking about RiscOS apps? I think RiscOS is VERY attractive. But does it run "legacy" RiscOS software like Lemmings, for example?
It if can run Lemmings, I consider it a full-featured computer :D
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clearly this is sci fi. but let's play dreaming:
Why don't recompile all ppc stuff to x86 instead of doing it for arm?
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You guys say it has all kind of apps. Are you talking about RiscOS apps? I think RiscOS is VERY attractive. But does it run "legacy" RiscOS software like Lemmings, for example?
It if can run Lemmings, I consider it a full-featured computer :D
Sounds from the Wikipedia article like there's a RISC OS port underway. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISC_OS#Shared_Source_Initiative) Assuming Lemmings doesn't rely on twiddling bits in the Acorn hardware, that'd probably be a "yes."
clearly this is sci fi. but let's play dreaming:
Why don't recompile all ppc stuff to x86 instead of doing it for arm?
Why do they have to be mutually exclusive? If the code isn't directly dependent on the hardware architecture, what's to stop anyone from compiling for all the above?
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I'm impressed by the graphics... nearly Geforce2 speed. Run a resource lean OS like Amiga on it and you have a late 90s era gaming rig.
Only with few of the benefits.
If we can concentrate on the essentials: web browser and plenty of driver support. Photo and video editing.
Modern video editing has come a long, long way since the days of Newtec's Toaster. Everything these days is digital and in that arena I suspect AOS, even with all the improvements of MOS or AROS or OS4 would be put under severe pressure to cope with the sorts of demands that kind of software would make in today's environment.
Photo editing is probably more realistic, but then you're competing in an arena where Linux has some pretty mature and feature rich software to choose from.
You've then got the basic appliance which passes as a modern computer. Minus the resource hogging Windows.
As well as a significant chunk of it's capabilities due to it's being hampered by 80's era APIs and architecture. Appliances are supposed by nature of their requirements to be stable and unobtrusive in their function. Rigged up to the eyeballs with patches and kludges, AOS was never that.
btw my Ubuntu 9.04 install uses about half the resources of even Windows XP.
But that Ubuntu install has out of the box more capabilities than you could get with AOS even with every patch and hack from Aminet installed and running smoothly (and good luck with that). It also has the supreme benefits of both being free (in all senses of the word) as well as well supported by vendors and coders.
There are probably more coders working just on the Linux kernel today then there were developers for Amiga software even at it's height to give you an idea of the scale of the mountain you're looking to go up.
This desire to try to move it back out into the mainstream, even under the limited guise of "appliance" type machines is simply that doesn't make any commercial sense (actually I think it makes even less sense than to try marketing it as a full blown desktop computer). There are far better suited, already mature and cheaper options around (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULa4TPy7z0c).
Amiga coming back was a great dream in 1997, which was realistically the last chance it ever had. In 2011 that same dream leaves a truly bitter taste in one's mouth. It's a retro hobby system and I'm sorry to have to repeat this, but that is all it will ever be at this late stage of the game. Minimig (and perhaps one day Natami if/when it's released) really do show the way to go in terms of the future of the Amiga. UAE for anyone else.
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Only with few of the benefits.
Modern video editing has come a long, long way since the days of Newtec's Toaster. Everything these days is digital and in that arena I suspect AOS, even with all the improvements of MOS or AROS or OS4 would be put under severe pressure to cope with the sorts of demands that kind of software would make in today's environment.
Photo editing is probably more realistic, but then you're competing in an arena where Linux has some pretty mature and feature rich software to choose from.
As well as a significant chunk of it's capabilities due to it's being hampered by 80's era APIs and architecture. Appliances are supposed by nature of their requirements to be stable and unobtrusive in their function. Rigged up to the eyeballs with patches and kludges, AOS was never that.
But that Ubuntu install has out of the box more capabilities than you could get with AOS even with every patch and hack from Aminet installed and running smoothly (and good luck with that). It also has the supreme benefits of both being free (in all senses of the word) as well as well supported by vendors and coders.
There are probably more coders working just on the Linux kernel today then there were developers for Amiga software even at it's height to give you an idea of the scale of the mountain you're looking to go up.
This desire to try to move it back out into the mainstream, even under the limited guise of "appliance" type machines is simply that doesn't make any commercial sense (actually I think it makes even less sense than to try marketing it as a full blown desktop computer). There are far better suited, already mature and cheaper options around (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULa4TPy7z0c).
Amiga coming back was a great dream in 1997, which was realistically the last chance it ever had. In 2011 that same dream leaves a truly bitter taste in one's mouth. It's a retro hobby system and I'm sorry to have to repeat this, but that is all it will ever be at this late stage of the game. Minimig (and perhaps one day Natami if/when it's released) really do show the way to go in terms of the future of the Amiga. UAE for anyone else.
For those of us committed to legacy software, I'd have to agree with you Alan.
But I run very little legacy code and I'm using my OS of choice because it provides a familiar development platform. I have Ububtu installed, but I don't write anything under it (I just use it).
I'd still like to see ARM ports of the NG OS' and if I can run Ubuntu or riscOS then I'll have those as well.
Since your not responsible for paying my OS licensing fees, I'll support what developments I care about.
And if it remains a hobby, so be it. It holds my interest.
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But I run very little legacy code and I'm using my OS of choice because it provides a familiar development platform.
Fine.
Since your not responsible for paying my OS licensing fees, I'll support what developments I care about.
Wholly unnecessary.
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hmmmm... one of this would fit very easily into an a1200 case leaving tons of room for other stuff.
ill have to check out the pandaboard
Why even put it in a case?
I'm thinking of mounting one on the back of an LCD monitor.
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Modern video editing has come a long, long way since the days of Newtec's Toaster. Everything these days is digital and in that arena I suspect AOS, even with all the improvements of MOS or AROS or OS4 would be put under severe pressure to cope with the sorts of demands that kind of software would make in today's environment.
Photo editing is probably more realistic, but then you're competing in an arena where Linux has some pretty mature and feature rich software to choose from.
I'm inclined to think Video editing will be the easier of those two. Modern chips include hardware video encode so unless you're doing some heavy video processing you don't need that much power. The previously mentioned Pandaboard has 1080p hardware encode.
OTOH The big problem in photo processing is you need ever more powerful hardware to handle ever more megapixels. I bought Lightroom 3 a while back, I promptly upgraded to a Core i7 machine to run it! Heavy processing on 21MP images requires a LOT of power and no Amiga flavour has that.
BTW 21MP may sound like a lot but you can get 12MP in phones now.
Amiga coming back was a great dream in 1997
Come back? It was never big as a desktop platform.
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Come back? It was never big as a desktop platform.
But if we don't pretend it was the universally-beloved market ruler that was cruelly assassinated by Microsoft and Intel, we won't have any absurdly unrealistic standards for success in new-school Amiga system efforts! And man, if we didn't have those, why, we might start enjoying small-scale efforts that preserve what people liked about the Amiga even if they don't measure up to the raw computing horsepower of modern PCs! We can't have that!
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But if we don't pretend it was the universally-beloved market ruler that was cruelly assassinated by Microsoft and Intel, we won't have any absurdly unrealistic standards for success in new-school Amiga system efforts! And man, if we didn't have those, why, we might start enjoying small-scale efforts that preserve what people liked about the Amiga even if they don't measure up to the raw computing horsepower of modern PCs! We can't have that!
I already have that. I'm satisfied with my humble system. I'll leave the more expensive NG systems to those of you that have more money than I do.
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Yes, we've discussed the BeagleBoard before and if you look at earlier posts in this thread you'll see a reference I made to a more powerful, similarly sized product called the PandaBoard.
There are a lot of small ARM based systems.
And Nvidia's planning on moving the ISA to desktops and servers.
ARM ISA was on desktop PCs i.e. Acorn Archimedes(1987), Acorn Risc PC(1994), Acorn Network Computer(1996, with Oracle's support), Acorn Phoebe (1998, prototype Risc PC2).
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ARM ISA was on desktop PCs i.e. Acorn Archimedes(1987), Acorn Risc PC(1994), Acorn Network Computer(1996, with Oracle's support), Acorn Phoebe (1998, prototype Risc PC2).
You forgot to mention the Intel;Xscale processors used in Castle Technology Ltd's RISC OS5 machines or RISC OS 6. So technically ARM is still in these markets to this day.
Perhaps what would be a better way to say it is Nvidia intends to move an ISA which is primarily thought of as an embedded processor into mainstream use in desktops and servers.
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Maybe this was already mentioned. 2GHZ ARM cortex
http://www.slashgear.com/nufront-nusmart-2815-2ghz-arm-cortex-a9-looks-to-squash-tegra-2-video-14102190/ (http://www.slashgear.com/nufront-nusmart-2815-2ghz-arm-cortex-a9-looks-to-squash-tegra-2-video-14102190/)
(http://www.netbooknews.com/wp-content/2010/09/nufront-arm-cortex-a9-550x297.jpg)
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There are probably more coders working just on the Linux kernel today then there were developers for Amiga software even at it's height to give you an idea of the scale of the mountain you're looking to go up.
Given that I don't think HP, Intel, IBM etc ever worked for the amiga, I'd wager you are right.
The linux kernel is a pretty amazing collaboration between disparate corporations and independents.
Amiga coming back was a great dream in 1997, which was realistically the last chance it ever had. In 2011 that same dream leaves a truly bitter taste in one's mouth. It's a retro hobby system and I'm sorry to have to repeat this, but that is all it will ever be at this late stage of the game. Minimig (and perhaps one day Natami if/when it's released) really do show the way to go in terms of the future of the Amiga. UAE for anyone else.
Keep it hobby, and it'll keep flourishing. Thats where we should be, and thats what we should work towards.
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Given that I don't think HP, Intel, IBM etc ever worked for the amiga, I'd wager you are right.
The linux kernel is a pretty amazing collaboration between disparate corporations and independents.
Keep it hobby, and it'll keep flourishing. Thats where we should be, and thats what we should work towards.
A hobby that still has some utility. I can deal with that. I don't think the amount of work going into this affects our hobbyist status. More its the fact that no one is likely to get rich developing for this market.
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A hobby that still has some utility. I can deal with that. I don't think the amount of work going into this affects our hobbyist status. More its the fact that no one is likely to get rich developing for this market.
oh, I totally agree with you. :)
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I'm inclined to think Video editing will be the easier of those two. Modern chips include hardware video encode so unless you're doing some heavy video processing you don't need that much power. The previously mentioned Pandaboard has 1080p hardware encode.
You know I thought about that initially but then considered the following: Many of those hardware encoders tend to be propriatary in nature, whilst I'm sure there are possibly some open source drivers that can make full use of them I really have big doubts that that level of support would be available to small projects such as AmigaOS.
OTOH The big problem in photo processing is you need ever more powerful hardware to handle ever more megapixels. I bought Lightroom 3 a while back, I promptly upgraded to a Core i7 machine to run it! Heavy processing on 21MP images requires a LOT of power and no Amiga flavour has that.
I'll happily defer to you on that.
BTW 21MP may sound like a lot but you can get 12MP in phones now.
I know about those phones, when I first read about them it left me feeling incredibly old.
Come back? It was never big as a desktop platform.
commodorejohn's response to this was a work of art. However I'll clarify, whilst it was never a major player it did have a fairly viable userbase. In 1997 if there was ever going to be anything to change the course from micro market, hideously (to the point of being non-viable) expensive hardware to something a little more reasonably priced for tinkerers and retro fans alike, it was back in 1997.
@runequestor loved your response :D
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Maybe this was already mentioned. 2GHZ ARM cortex
http://www.slashgear.com/nufront-nusmart-2815-2ghz-arm-cortex-a9-looks-to-squash-tegra-2-video-14102190/ (http://www.slashgear.com/nufront-nusmart-2815-2ghz-arm-cortex-a9-looks-to-squash-tegra-2-video-14102190/)
(http://www.netbooknews.com/wp-content/2010/09/nufront-arm-cortex-a9-550x297.jpg)
That looks pretty impressive.
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That looks pretty impressive.
Yeah, passive cooling at 2ghz is pretty cool.