Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: utri007 on December 14, 2010, 09:01:22 PM
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Netsurf for 68k amigas looks promising.
Will there be new versions of it? And will it be amigized? I mean prober amiga gui, mui maybe?
SDL is big problem with our beloved 68k cpu, so ....
RiscOs version runs quite well lowend computers, compared to 030 with 16mb ram, when AmigaOs version requires 060 and 64mb memory to be near usable.
Netsurf is best possibility to get "modern" web browser for 68k amigas. I really wonder why you guys are not more interested about it?
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I don't have a 060 or RTG card, so I just stick with IBrowse for the sites I can use, and OWB on my Aros laptop for the ones I can't. Sure, I'd use Netsurf if it was usable, but I don't have my hopes up that it ever will be because of SDL.
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While 68k Netsurf has improved since the earlier versions it still is really only usable for higher end 68k system ('060 + RTG or emulated), and needs some work even disregarding (lack of) speed. Unfortunately 68k based machines probably feel the burn of a small community more than the "NG" options as recompiles of open source software that requires heavy, forgeign apis/toolkits/etc. are often ok on machines with a little more power than a real 68k cpu can provide, and unfortunately due to the very small number of people with amiga specific coding skills still around optimisations and/or using native apis rarely happens.
It's quite a shame really as while the classic amigas are old, and compared to modern options a little humble, theyre still capable of offering a more modern browsing experince than what is currently available.
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You are right.
But apps like netsurf would benefit classic amiga community for long time, if somebody could pay some attention to make optimized port with proper gui.
Netsurf is our only realistic change to get modern web browser. All others would be useless at least with real amigas OWB/Firefox etc.
Allso Netsurf would benefit projects like natami, offering more modern apps to their product
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But apps like netsurf would benefit classic amiga community for long time, if somebody could pay some attention to make optimized port with proper gui.
Yes, there's no reason why it shouldn't work on lower memory, slower 68k systems.
The OS4 GUI shouldn't be too difficult to backport (to OS3.9BB2 as it is Reaction based). Some work would need to be done to get the pages displaying properly on 8-bit displays (currently, even on OS4, NetSurf needs a 16-bit or higher screenmode), and the font code is a bit special but I have a ttfengine version floating around somewhere which might be a good starting point although will need to be fixed up.
If somebody #ifdef'd the OS4 frontend with OS3 changes and helped add features (such as 8-bit display support) and fix bugs I would be well happy!
Sadly Bernd and Artur only seem to be interested in hacking the SDL frontend, which wasn't really designed as a full desktop browser.
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Sadly ports like this end up being bloated and resource/ram hogs.. its a good effort of course.. Unfortunately its never been stable on my machine.
Long ago i used a old mac browser called Icab that was for 68K macs under fusion. it worked pretty well for the time on my 060 amiga.
Browsers will always be huge resource hogs and expecting them to run on a 030 much less 060 is a miracle. Ibrowse is an amazing example of what native browsers can do on our machines. Its too bad we will not see ibrowse updated.
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I wonder if it would be possible to port one of the more recent text-based browsers available, like elinks or w3m. They are fast, and despite their ASCII-ness they are fairly up to date.
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Native Netsurf should be fast. RiscOS requirements are 30MHz ARM 6 computer with 16MB of RAM, so I could imagine it would run 030 with 16mb ram.
I belive that itix has made some progres with this? Maybe he could help?
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But will be a native version? Maybe we should make a bounty for it?
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A native version should be a great idea.
Then, how would you define that bounty? Please modify/criticize the following suggested one:
Port NetSurf current version to Amiga 68k, without using SDL as a base, as it is resource hungry for poor old 68k. The idea is to have a 68k version that it is usable for most Classic Amiga users. If it adds more features like RTG, 040 or 060 native support, etc then the better as long as it runs on what the Proof of Bounty requires.
Proof of bounty completed when Netsurf current, runs on an OCS 68030 (with no MMU and FPU) Amiga with no graphics card and less than 32MB of fastmem, with its GUI entirely MUIfied (MUI 3.8 compatible) and displays http://www.yahoo.com web page. A WinUAE/UAE setup that matches those system requirements is of course, also allowed as a testing proof.
Please add your suggestions. Is it feasable after all? What do you think?
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Please add your suggestions. Is it feasable after all? What do you think?
Well, a version without sdl can be done, if someone ports the mui gui from the morphos package.
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You are right.
But apps like netsurf would benefit classic amiga community for long time, if somebody could pay some attention to make optimized port with proper gui.
Netsurf is our only realistic change to get modern web browser. All others would be useless at least with real amigas OWB/Firefox etc.
Allso Netsurf would benefit projects like natami, offering more modern apps to their product
Except OWB can actually be faster than Netsurf, even though it does a lot more. I even wonder how Netsurf (68k) can be so slow... Memory requirements would be another issue, though.
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@Fab
So, do you think it is actually technically feasable to port OWB current or MOS version to run in an OCS 68030 <32MB Amiga? Would you do it for a nice amount of bounty $$$ ?
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@Fab
So, do you think it is actually technically feasable to port OWB current or MOS version to run in an OCS 68030 <32MB Amiga? Would you do it for a nice amount of bounty $$$ ?
Clearly not. OWB requires a gfx card and at least 128MB (or rather 256MB) to be somehow usable.
But my point was rather Netsurf also doesn't qualify for such a requirement, at the moment, since it's even slower.
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@Fab
In the end, do you think there is no solution for 68k users regarding semi-modern web browsing? I mean no half decent browser port can be made? Or is it that it just requires too much effort from a devs point of view to tweak and modify code to make it usable?
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@Fab
In the end, do you think there is no solution for 68k users regarding semi-modern web browsing? I mean no half decent browser port can be made? Or is it that it just requires too much effort from a devs point of view to tweak and modify code to make it usable?
Well, for UAE users, an OWB port issued from MorphOS version (for instance) could make sense and would surely be relatively usable (assuming the port is done correctly), but it's a bit sad to target only UAE users, IMO.
For original Amigas, maybe netsurf is a better option, but the current port is definitely too slow. But if it's fast enough on RiscOS machines, it must just be an issue with the current port.
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@Fab
In the end, do you think there is no solution for 68k users regarding semi-modern web browsing? I mean no half decent browser port can be made? Or is it that it just requires too much effort from a devs point of view to tweak and modify code to make it usable?
The problem is, end users are completely underestimating the complexity involved in implementing a "modern" browser. The standards set by the W3C for conformity do not, even in the most token sense imaginable, consider the computational and memory requirements of implementing their specification.
I'm not saying it would be impossible to write a browser for 68K that is both compliant and usable on a real 68K machine, however, it is something that would have to be written ground up with the limitations of the hardware in mind. No small task, even for a team of highly committed developers.
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But we are talking about port Netsurf for 68k, without SDL, GUI by MUI or maybe Reacton? I think this is not the same as write it from scratch.
Modern browser is something like OWB for OS4.
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But we are talking about port Netsurf for 68k, without SDL, GUI by MUI or maybe Reacton? I think this is not the same as write it from scratch.
Modern browser is something like OWB for OS4.
Depends what you mean by modern. Ibrowse UI is way more modern than OWB for OS4.
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I could never get netsurf do anything on my real Amiga except lock it up.
It was really fast under UAE though.
The question is, would it be easier / faster to port Netsurf so that it doesn't use SDL, uses MUI and works fast. Or would it be easier / faster to update AWeb (which is open source, I believe...)
It's a damn shame that IBrowse is no longer being developed. I don't even know of a way to get a key for it.
I generally just use AWeb as it is now. It works well enough for fetching things from Aminet, but isn't terribly easy on the eyes when trying to browse the web.
slaapliedje
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Dear Santa,
I write on behalf of a rag-tag, out-of-date, out-of-touch bunch of technologists who live on the edges of society. Let's just call them the "A" Team. For 2010 Christmas, all they ask is a capable web browser they can run on their 1990s era home computer. They reckon it should:
1. be open source, extensible and there by be somewhat future proof
2. be CSS 2.0 compliant
3. be HTML 4+ adherent; maybe HTML 5 doable, if you have enough magic dust laying around.
4. SSL capable so they can shop and buy stuff for their kids.
5. Should work on all 68030 w/FPU Commodore Amiga computers with 128MB RAM running AOS 3.1.
Thanks a bunch,
The Goose
PS There's some St. Pauli Girl in the fridge I don't like, feel free to take that.
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Netsurf is our ONLY possible/realistic solution to get semi modern browser for 68k amigas, wich is fast and works quite low spec amigas.
Aweb would be hard, it would need quite much work, new html/css engine writen from scrats...
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FAB: I would happily donate money to have you port OWB to UAE. I'm sure many would.
What type of money would be required for you to consider this type of project?
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FAB: I would happily donate money to have you port OWB to UAE. I'm sure many would.
What type of money would be required for you to consider this type of project?
It's not about money, but motivation. Anyway, if the guy who currently tries to port OWB MorphOS to OS4 succeeds, then the OS3 port shouldn't be very hard, since OS4 and OS3 are basically the same, MUI-wise.
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Is netsurf for OS4 SDL based, or is it reaction/mui? OWB is and will be useless for real amigas
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Netsurf is our ONLY possible/realistic solution to get semi modern browser for 68k amigas, wich is fast and works quite low spec amigas.
Aweb would be hard, it would need quite much work, new html/css engine writen from scrats...
AWeb:
http://www.greyhound-data.com/gunnar/aweb/index.htm?page=downloads
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That is not a official aweb support page, official page is gone for long time ago. Developer files and lates sources are allso gone???
We have such a tiny community that OWB port for UEA use wouldn't be good thing, it woun't benefit real amiga users.
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Maybe it's just me, but I personally don't see the point in a browser designed specifically for UEA use. If I'm using a PC that runs an Amiga emulator I'd use a browser that runs directly from that machines OS, and not through the emulation of another OS.
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That is not a official aweb support page, official page is gone for long time ago. Developer files and lates sources are allso gone???
We have such a tiny community that OWB port for UEA use wouldn't be good thing, it woun't benefit real amiga users.
You can as Gunnar for the source. I think he updated the Javascipt engine. It's the newest version I know of...
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That is not a official aweb support page, official page is gone for long time ago. Developer files and lates sources are allso gone???
We have such a tiny community that OWB port for UEA use wouldn't be good thing, it woun't benefit real amiga users.
It wouldn't hurt Classic 68k Amiga users if a port of OWB were ported to UAE. UAE is nothing without AmigaOS1.x to 3.x running on top of it, so porting OWB for use on AmigaOS1.x to 3.x when run on top of UAE "might" benefit users of Classic 68k Amigas, if they have an fast 68060 & RTG graphics card.
But I agree that anyone running UAE to run AmigaOS would be better off just switching to the host OS and using what ever modern browser they have for that host OS to do their browsing and downloading of files, then transfer them into the UAE Amiga emulated OS for use.
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What a about AWeb?? I woun't use it, ibrowse is far better, but none of them doesn't have css supoort wich is essential now a days.
Netsurf shows quite lot web pages right, like amiga.org, amigaworld.net ie.. aweb/ibrowse doesn't
OWB port for UEA use is not good thing, because IF we get semi modern browser for 68k amigas, it is most like just one, not netsurf and OWB.
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What a about AWeb?? I woun't use it, ibrowse is far better, but none of them doesn't have css supoort wich is essential now a days.
Netsurf shows quite lot web pages right, like amiga.org, amigaworld.net ie.. aweb/ibrowse doesn't
OWB port for UEA use is not good thing, because IF we get semi modern browser for 68k amigas, it is most like just one, not netsurf and OWB.
Did you look at the screenshots in the AWeb link? The looked right to me.
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Screenshot is old...
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14023&forum=2#199290
Amiga 4000 boot trouble thread from amigaworld, 5 years ago. I belive they have made changes after that, very same reason as an amigans.net was forced to change.
When you visited here with AWeb last time? ;)
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If you ask Karlos nicely he might give you the url for the Amiga compatible amiga.org :)
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@nicholas
;)
What a about AWeb?? I woun't use it, ibrowse is far better, but none of them doesn't have css supoort wich is essential now a days.
Netsurf shows quite lot web pages right, like amiga.org, amigaworld.net ie.. aweb/ibrowse doesn't
Try http://aoproxy.extropia.co.uk/ (http://aoproxy.extropia.co.uk/) in AWeb/IBrowse ;)
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The question is, would it be easier / faster to port Netsurf so that it doesn't use SDL, uses MUI and works fast. Or would it be easier / faster to update AWeb (which is open source, I believe...)
The former.
Is netsurf for OS4 SDL based, or is it reaction/mui?
OS4 NetSurf is Reaction-based. There shouldn't be anything there which wouldn't work on OS3.9u2, the actual GUI stuff is pretty simple windows/buttons/empty space/tabs with some dynamic adding/removing (which can always be stuck in "always there" mode if necessary). It may need some slight reworking to replace new OS4 functions with older ones.
The hardest part will be modifying the plotters to use an 8-bit palette, and the UTF-8 text display will need replacing (I have some old code using ttfengine which should work as a replacement with some updating).
It'll take somebody a few weeks to "back-port" it.
If anybody does this and bases it on the OS4 code, please just #ifdef so improvements benefit both versions.
Oh, and join the netsurf-dev mailing list!
Chris
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chris, i can take a look, no promisses though. y'know, im not a coder.
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wawrzon: Great :) if you get stuck, remember that here are lot of coders that enjoy to help :) not me
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Sadly Bernd and Artur only seem to be interested in hacking the SDL frontend, which wasn't really designed as a full desktop browser.
And unfortunately they use ixemul instead of libnix, making the final product not as nice as it could be. Do you know if OS4 netsurf could be recompiled with clib2 instead of newlib? Since there's a clib2 version for m68k perhaps it makes the job easier.
How would libnix and clib2 compare on m68k? which one would be better? I have noticed that Damato is using clib2 for its MUI m68k classes.
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@wawrzon
Good luck!
@Crumb
And unfortunately they use ixemul instead of libnix, making the final product not as nice as it could be. Do you know if OS4 netsurf could be recompiled with clib2 instead of newlib? Since there's a clib2 version for m68k perhaps it makes the job easier.
IIRC I never got it to build with clib2, but I was very close and was having less problems than with newlib. I switched because newlib is recommended and a library I needed I only had a newlib version of, after that I didn't try clib2 again.
I don't expect any particular problems with clib2, and no *ix libraries should be needed with a native interface. I don't know which functions are requiring the use of ixemul, NS doesn't use any functions that aren't in standard clib2 AFAIK.
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Any news about this?
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Any news about this?
Some unconnected movement:
http://vlists.pepperfish.net/pipermail/netsurf-dev-netsurf-browser.org/2011-January/002297.html
What needs to be done:
http://vlists.pepperfish.net/pipermail/netsurf-dev-netsurf-browser.org/2011-January/002304.html
Any takers?
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Hope you get help.
Good/working web browser is important, so there should be plenty of helppers
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Hi - this is my first post here, and it's a fitting subject hehe. I am at this very moment using netsurf 68k (the latest from aminet) on amikit under OS3.9 and WinUAE. It works really well - pages display correctly, and it's fast under my settings. However it's not perfect - for instance there is no right click function - not a big limit, but it's diferent o be sure. I hope this will be the first of many post for me.
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Hi - this is my first post here, and it's a fitting subject hehe. I am at this very moment using netsurf 68k (the latest from aminet) on amikit under OS3.9 and WinUAE. It works really well - pages display correctly, and it's fast under my settings. However it's not perfect - for instance there is no right click function - not a big limit, but it's diferent o be sure. I hope this will be the first of many post for me.
....I have found Netsurf68K also to be quite satisfactory in WinUAE. Sure it is minus various features but it displays even the most complex web pages. I had it out on various world news sites (full of complex content) and it all looked pretty good via Netsurf. The YouTube video playing trick also worked better than expected. So for WinUAE or maybe Amithlon uses, this is the only 68K web browser of merit in my opinion.
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bump!
Is there any progress being made to speed up things for real 68k machines?
Could a bounty help?
Question:
For me it is only a matter of speed : )
http://blog.mypapit.net/2006/10/elinks-the-best-text-based-web-browser.html
What do you think? It is written in Ansi-C....
Should be fast, has css support (: D ), tabs, donwloads in background, and can launch external viewers.
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Elinks is pretty kickass all right. I've never used it on a 68k machine, but I know Links (the parent project) is actually eminently usable on DSLinux, so it's probably at least capable of use on a decent 68k Amiga.
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http://www.xteddy.org/elinks/
well i start to like it. Tested it on AEROS..
This weekend i will check/ try a compile for AmigaOS. Never did it before ; )
But clean Ansi-C should really be straightforward.
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http://www.xteddy.org/elinks/
well i start to like it. Tested it on AEROS..
This weekend i will check/ try a compile for AmigaOS. Never did it before ; )
But clean Ansi-C should really be straightforward.
Great :)
I wish you success, and good luck
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http://www.xteddy.org/elinks/
well i start to like it. Tested it on AEROS..
This weekend i will check/ try a compile for AmigaOS. Never did it before ; )
But clean Ansi-C should really be straightforward.
w3m browser is more up to date and probably wouldn't take much effort to compile an Amiga version.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/W3m
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hmm as far as i know is Elinks the only one who is css compatible (sort of)
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It would be geat to have good text only browser for low end classic amigas.
Hopefully we get native Netsurf for high end classic amigas also.
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hmm as far as i know is Elinks the only one who is css compatible (sort of)
Yeah, it just hasn't been updated in quite a while whereas w3m is still being updated.
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Heh, that ELinks looks interesting. I'll have a look tonight.
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; )
I was going to invite you via aros-exec.
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fishy_fiz : Could you pay some attention to Netsurf also? It should be quite easy now, all debensies are already done and OS4 sources are made keeping mind that somebody might want to backport it OS3.
Sorry that this is repeating, but I'm not a coder myself and I'm keeping to hope that Netsurf could made 68k amigas more capable for dayli use? I'm realistic that it wount be general surf solution, but it would be cool to surf amiga sites with amiga.
SDL front end is not too far from it.
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@utri007
I'd like to, but to be honest I think I might get sick of browsers by the time I have time. After looking at ELinks Im interested in porting OWB from either MOS or AROS sources. MOS of course would be preferable, but it mostly comes down to which is easier. AROS OWB isnt too bad anyway. Has bookmarks, a download manager, tabs, some basic prefs and so on.
Unfortunately I plan to use it on my amithlon box, so either way it's unlikely to be suitable for classics (hence my interest in Elinks).
All hypothetical for now I guess seeing as Im still wresting with my dev. env. at the moment (sodding softlinks in tar files... does anyone know how to deal with these in OS3.x please? Im using pfs3 if that means anything)