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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: patrik on December 09, 2003, 07:39:27 PM
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Hi everyone!
Just got myself my very first graphics-card for an Amiga. It is great except one thing - the pointer doesnt seem to have its update locked to the vertical retrace as it is when using AGA. Its movement is quite sluggish, just like in UAE with Picasso96. Can this "pointer-update-rate" be changed in some way so I may enjoy smooth moving pointers as with AGA?
/Patrik
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Is it a software pointer? The pointer on my BVision is prefectly smooth, even at 1600x1200@75Hz...
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@Karlos:
Actually I dont know for sure, but it looks like it is a hardware-pointer as it only seem to support 4 colors and one of them is transparent :D.
The graphic-card is a CyberVision64 and I am using CyberGraphX 4.0.
Anyhow, it feels exactly like when I am using Picasso96 in WinUAE - the pointer moves very smooth in Windows, but in UAE it feels like 60 updates per second or something similar.
(edit):
Btw, it doesnt matter what resolution I use, the movement-feeling is exactly the same.
/Patrik
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Hmm...
I looked at my settings, pretty sure its a hardware mouse also. I do have mouse speed set maximum and acceleration enabled however.
Incidentally, you should get the CGX 4.2 update as you own 4.0...
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@Karlos:
I will try to update later. I guess the update requires me to insert the CyberGraphX 4.0 CD and with no CD-ROM installed at the moment... ;).
Tried the acceleration and maximum speed setting, but that didnt help. The thing that nags me ;) is not the speed the mouse-pointer moves at, but the fact that it doesnt feel like it moves smooth... like it isnt redrawn often enough, or if it is a hardware pointer (as it should be) - its position isnt updated often enough.
/Patrik
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It is possible the pointer refresh is tied into some native graphics code. I'd expect it to be up to the actual monitor driver to patch the pointer code rather than the main cgx library since its obviously a hardware dependent feature.
I've never noticed a problem on the bvision, but UAE is a bit sluggish here too...
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gmm weird...i have seen this prob on several machines , but mine moves darn good ....
i have a mediator with p96 ...
but i have a 2? color pointer....erm the preset one in 3.9... no need for a 16mill color pointer now is it? :)
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Feel free to shoot me if I'm off the mark, but...
How good is your mouse? I don't know if you've seen the Beetle Mouse entry in the Images section, but whoever posted that mentioned that after buying a graphics card, his/her beloved Beetle Mouse no longer worked smoothly enough for effective use. I don't know the technical details behind mouse resolution and things though... Just trying to find that image and the comments now...
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It's here (http://amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=267)
It was a sad day a year later when the Cybervision 64 and scan doubler
came in. While the computer was improved, design limitations in Beetle
Mouse were made glaringly apparent. Beetle Mouse's mouseing skills were
not up to the 800x600 playing filed, it's pointer jumped and jittered,
it caused the User much frustration. Beetle Mouse was retired to the
A1200 bag, replace by a logitech Mouse and Tupulo interface with better
skills.
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...uh, did I just inadvertantly insult everybody's mothers?
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I'm still using my old logic 3 speedmouse (the one that you could switch between amiga/atari). Just as smooth now as before getting my gfx card. Never a problem apart from the gadual build up of mung that you have to clean off the rollers occasionally...
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I also have a logic3 one..great mouse... the right button doesn't work sometimes though...
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Patrick
Using the CGXMode preferences, see if you can define a 60Hz mode (for testing purposes). If it turns out that your pointer is sync'd to some custom chip timing signal, it should be smooth. However, your eyes will hate you for it :-)
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@that_punk_guy:
I have tried the mouse-theory now. Before, when using AGA I used Euro72 (640x400@70Hz), so I created an identical mode for the graphic-card and set up two monitors to the Amiga - one for the graphic-card and one for the AGA. When comparing the mouse movement between those two screens the movement on the graphic-card screen is still sluggish and on the AGA-screen it moves smooooth as ice :-/.
@lempkee:
Do you know what configurations any of these sluggish-move-movement-impaired-relatives of mine ;) were using?
@Karlos:
Tried a 60Hz mode, but the same sluggish feeling was there. Got curious if it synced with the 50Hz mains or something (a PAL Amiga), but I had some problems getting a 50Hz mode to work so I tried a 100Hz mode and the mouse felt more synced than ever, though still sluggish compared to when using AGA.
/Patrik
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Hi patrik
on wich Amiga, have you installed the CV64?
There is a jumper for SB rev9 compatibility that enables the "slow Zorro mode".
Have you the CV64 user manual?
Ciao
-edit- it is JP1 and with SB11 must be OPEN
Have your CV64 2 or 4 MB of VRAM?
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@Framiga:
The CV64 is equipped with 4MB VRAM and is installed in an A4000 with Super Buster rev. 11.
I bought the CV64 secondhand and did not get a user manual with it. You dont happen to know if it is possible to get hold of it somewhere?
As there are no jumper-markings on the CV64-board I dont know what the current jumper-settings are. I guess the user-manual give names to the jumpers..?
/Patrik
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patrik: ATEO and pixel 64 was one of em and another was merlin with p96, but as i said i am not sure if its a user issue or a hw issue.
good luck with this and i hope its just a jumper like framiga(HI!:D) said.
cheers
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Hi patrik,
just sent to you privately.
Ciao
PS- don't try to use 1024x768@32bit WB.
Use max 1024x768@16PC.
OOps . . . you are using CGX, sorry . . anyway use a 16 bit mode for the WB.
I'm using P96 that works great with CV64.
IMPORTANT- check if (i don't remember if a tooltype or an enviroment) USE ROXXELER is set to YES
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My mouse pointer runs quite smoothly. The only problem i have is:
Its black and white - so it won't change colour
It rather big and blocky - clumsy
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Hi CU_AMIGA
have you tryed from Preference:Pointer, to load another pointer OR reset to default one?
Ciao
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@Framiga:
Checked the jumper-settings and they were all at default. I also upgraded to latest(?) V4.3 RC5 CyberGraphX version. Unfortounately nothing is different except from the fact that ARQ gives me gurus when trying to show requesters now :D.
I am currently running 1280x960x8bit on a fixed sync monitor which will accept that resolution or 1280x1024, but the resolution doesnt make any difference, even if I run 640x480 on another monitor, the mouse movements just aint comparable to those with AGA-screens. Maybe I will have to live with this ;).
(edit):
Have tried using both the default mouse-pointer and and a simple black and white one. But with the same result. Though with the CyberGraphX update there is a new(? 99% sure I havent seen it before) ENV-variable called "NOMOUSERATIO", but the wierd thing is that when I save, it unselects itself, wierd. Guess I have to experiment with that one a bit ;).
/Patrik
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Hi Patrik,
yes but at which color deep?
Use max 1024x768@16bit.
I've added some question in the previous post.
Ciao
IMPORTANT- check if (i don't remember if a tooltype or an enviroment) USE ROXXELER is set to YES
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Framiga wrote:
Hi CU_AMIGA
have you tryed from Preference:Pointer, to load another pointer OR reset to default one?
Ciao
I have, but it looks a bit stupid and/or lop sided for some reason on my machine. Are there any links for pointers? - May work a little better.
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@Framiga:
I did some editing to my previous post before I saw your last reply. I think that should answer the questions except the roxxler question. I have the tooltype "USEROXXLER" set to "YES"
/Patrik
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I have, but it looks a bit stupid and/or lop sided for some reason on my machine. Are there any links for pointers? - May work a little better.
Have you tried setting the pointer to high-resolution mode? It can be done with the Prefs/Pointer program.
/Patrik
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I will try that one thanks. Actually, i have changed the whole screen resolution since then. So maybe it might work now. :-)
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Hi patrik,
i've no idea now :-(
Here my CGX 4.3 Tooltypes:
ADVANCEDCLK=NO
BITMAPCACHE=YES
BOOTLOGO=YES
DRAGGING=YES
PASSTHROUGH=YES
SCROLLMASK=YES
USEROXXLER=YES
MEMCLOCK=60
I've sent to you, the CyberGraphX dir (Env-Archive:CyberGraphX)
Ciao
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@Framiga:
I have tried just about everything now, still no aga-like-movements :/.. though I am very picky about small stuff like this so it might just be me that is annoyed by it more than appropriate ;).
Got one more question: Do you happen to know if it is possible to get the CV64 to keep the sync between screen-switches of screens using the same screenmode?
When I am using this fixed-sync monitor it is quite annoying as it blackens down for about 1 second when it looses sync. This is very irritating as the switch is done fast, but you are "blind" for a while. (not a slow-switch because of a VRAM-issue, 2 * 1280*960 = 2457600 < 4194304). Have tried it on two other monitors. On one monitor, the the image flickers a bit when switching and on the other monitor no flickering occurs at all.
/Patrik
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@patrik:
just take the highest colour mode and copy it two times, then change the bitplanes to 16 and on the other copy change it to 8. It will give you 3 screenmodes with the same refresh and the monitor won't loose sync... the downside will be that with the highest resolutions you will be restricted to the refresh of the highest colour mode even on 8bit modes...
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patrik wrote:
@Karlos:
Tried a 60Hz mode, but the same sluggish feeling was there. Got curious if it synced with the 50Hz mains or something (a PAL Amiga), but I had some problems getting a 50Hz mode to work so I tried a 100Hz mode and the mouse felt more synced than ever, though still sluggish compared to when using AGA.
Kick your A4K in NTSC mode and try again ;-)
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And there would be any way to force AGA to run at 72hz for example so there's better sync with the gfx card? I mean, something that opens a screen on bootup and sets that mode... or a modified VGAonly to force every mode to be 72hz... and if it worked it would be possible to create with MonED a 100Hz mode (I don't mind if it's a 160x120screen) so there's even better sync?
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@Crumb:
I am using _exactly_ the same screenmode for the two screens I am switching between, but it seems like the card drops the sync for a tiny tiny period of time. Have tried three monitors. On one monitor it results in a black image for about 0.5-1.0 second, on one monitor a slight flickering but nothing more occurs and on the last monitor is unaffected when switching. Am I the only one having wierd issues with graphic-cards, or is it just me being wierd? ;).
/Patrik
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@Crumb
Possibly...
The whole 60Hz thing was something brought up by some other guy who discovered that when his AGA / GFx card were both operating 60Hz, all graphical operations suddenly bacame beautifully synced, including stuff like solid window dragging etc. IIRC, he was using a CV64 or CV3D.
Personally, I haven't noticed any real sync problems with my bvision though, but I dont tend to use solid window moving. The mouse seems fine.
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@patrik
I have found that switching screens that dont have both identical refresh and depth causes the same sync switch. I guess this could be a bug in CGX?
All my defined modes are VESA2 compliant (bar a few odd ones), and switching from a 85Hz 16-bit screen to another is fine. But if change depth as well (all other things being equal), I get the resync thing.
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@patrik:
It sounds strange, the monitors that take so much time to switch are very old?
I tried that when I had a CV64 like you and it worked without problems with an old c= 1942 and a Hyundai Deluxscan15G+.
Now I have a Picasso4 and I didn't have problems with a 17" Medion or my current 20" Eizo...
Mmm I think you should disable Screen dragging, it slows down switching and doesn't look as good as aga... for example drag down a 256 colour opus screen if you have a 16bit WB under it... colours will look crap. I have disabled screen dragging (well, now I use P96 and don't have that option anyway)
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@Crumb
ECS-Agnus and Alice can only directly work with 50 or 60Hz modes, everthing
else is done by a useing a copperlist triggering a premature sync.
So no I don't thing Euro72 and suchlike would help.
Also:
VGAOnly does NOT force anything to 72Hz (little point when standard VGA
GFX-mode is 640x480 in 60Hz), but will set force hsync to 31kHz (normal
"double"-modes are only around 29kHz, too little for cheap VGA-CRTs).
Thisis done by useing part of the overscan area, but since those cheap VGAs
won't allow much Overscan anyways ... :-o
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@Karlos:
*rejumpers the A4000 to NTSC*
It definately syncs the mouse-pointer update to the PAL/NTSC refresh - now when using a 60Hz CyberGraphX screenmode the mouse-pointer moves smooth as ice.. erm well.. as smooth as 60Hz can make it move atleast ;)... But if I increase the refresh-rate of the screenmode to for example 75Hz it starts stuttering, resulting in a sluggish movement again.. but as I mentioned, I am very picky and I dont like mousepointers when they dont sync with the refresh-rate. The positive thing about making the A4000 a NTSC-machine is that now the mouse-pointer gets 60 updates per second instead of 50, but there should be a better way!!
/Patrik
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@Kronos:
"VGAOnly does NOT force anything to 72Hz "
Yeah, but what I mean is that it could probably be modified to be "72HZOnly" if you like to force all modes to be 72Hz at least (which is little useful because it only changes the copperlist). Anyway thank you for the explanation about the ECS-Agnus and Alice...
I guess that using 120hz or 100hz should result in smooth movement too
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@Crumbs:
Yes, the monitor is very old, but I am not switching between different screenmodes. They are the exact same screenmodes with the same name, resolution, bitdepth and refresh-rate. Dragging is disabled and as I mentioned the switching is indeed very fast, that is not the problem, the actual problem is that the card disables the sync for a very short amount of time and this monitor does not like that at all. It results in a totally black screen for about 0.5-1.0 seconds which makes the switching feel slow even if it actually is fast. I have tried the same switching on two other monitors and with those monitors the switching feels fast as the monitors doesnt blacken the picture inbetween switching. On one of the other monitors nothing was noticed when switching and on the other one a slight flickering occured when switching indicating that the sync was lost for a little amount of time - still switching between exactly the same screenmodes.
/Patrik
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@Kronos:
Would it be possible to write a program whose sole purpose just is to set the refresh-rate of the "chipset"?
/Patrik
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@Patrik:
have you disabled screen dragging?
try it, switching should be faster
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@Patrik
I even had such a programm once :-o
Came with DeInterLace from MacroSystems (FF for A2000), but that one only
worked under 1.3 :-x
And I have no idea where it is gone :-(
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It seems I dont really get this effect much, or am I just not noticing?
Surely its possible to patch whatever code update the mouse position to sync to the vertical blank of the display card? WaitBOVP() should do the trick, no?