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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Matt_H on November 30, 2010, 01:06:04 AM
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I've just acquired a nice-'n-cheap ViewSonic VA705b. It seems to be handling Amiga screenmodes (scandoubled) quite well. Previous LCDs I've tried have cut off a lot of the screen in native modes, but this one looks like a keeper. It has some trouble on DblPAL, and Multiscan, and some of the other 31KHz native modes, but good ol' NTSC and PAL work great through my CV3D scandoubler.
I'll report back if any issues come up.
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Congrats Matt :drink:
I just put an LCD monitor on an Amiga for the first time myself and I'm lovin it :)
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Congrats Matt :drink:
I just put an LCD monitor on an Amiga for the first time myself and I'm lovin it :)
I have it since a long time on my A2000.
For me the best setup is to have an LCD/TV that always work.
Scart connected to the On-board card ECS/AGA and the VGA connected to the RTG!!!
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I've tried a number of different LCD monitors or LCD TVs from various manufacturers in the past couple of years but always end up going back to my CRT monitors as I can't find one that doesn't suffer from motion blur when scrolling... :(
Even ones that claim to be 2ms response time and are supposedly not to suffer from motion blur still do. Anybody found one that does actually work without motion blur and if so what's the make/model number... :)
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@Franko
Try changing your perception; call it "movement anti-aliasing" rather than "motion blur" and consider it a feature :D
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@Franko
Try changing your perception; call it "movement anti-aliasing" rather than "motion blur" and consider it a feature :D
You do realise what you have just done don't you Karlos...
Some advertising executive from Sony, Samsung or whichever is going to spot that comment and use it on the box to sell their flawed products under the guise of it being an extra feature... :(
Gawd, I'll never see an LCD monitor now without motion blur... :cry:
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My Iiyama ProLite has a 2ms response time and I can't say I've noticed it being particularly blurry when there's movement.
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My Iiyama ProLite has a 2ms response time and I can't say I've noticed it being particularly blurry when there's movement.
'Particularly blurry' is a bit like saying, ok it's a 100 watt bulb but it really only gives off 60 watts, doesn't cut it with me Im afraid... :)
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'Particularly blurry' is a bit like saying, ok it's a 100 watt bulb but it really only gives off 60 watts, doesn't cut it with me Im afraid... :)
Are you kidding? 60W worth of visible light would be a phenomenal output for an incandescent bulb rated at 100W power consumption ;)
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I have an Envision EN-LM500 Professional Series flat-panel monitor attached to my Amiga 3000T. My graphics board is a GVP Spectrum and I am using the P96 driver. My settings are 640 X 400 res, 16-bit color, 60 Hertz. There is no motion blur at all. Great picture and color. The only negative thing I can say is that the picture is not as crisp and clear as a CRT monitor.
Make sure that you are not trying to push the monitor beyond what it can handle. You have to remember that these old Amiga computers are not modern PCs or Macs. So, I have found that it is best to treat them as vintage computers. It is best to stick with the lower screen resolutions. Never go beyond 1024 X 768, you WILL have problems if you do. At least this has been my experiance.
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I have an Envision EN-LM500 Professional Series flat-panel monitor attached to my Amiga 3000T. My graphics board is a GVP Spectrum and I am using the P96 driver. My settings are 640 X 400 res, 16-bit color, 60 Hertz. There is no motion blur at all. Great picture and color. The only negative thing I can say is that the picture is not as crisp and clear as a CRT monitor.
Make sure that you are not trying to push the monitor beyond what it can handle. You have to remember that these old Amiga computers are not modern PCs or Macs. So, I have found that it is best to treat them as vintage computers. It is best to stick with the lower screen resolutions. Never go beyond 1024 X 768, you WILL have problems if you do. At least this has been my experiance.
I've never tried that model, need to check out the specs for it first. I never usually use a screenmode of more than 640X512 (mostly 640x256), I'll dig around and see what I can find out about, but I'd be very surprised if it has no motion blur at all, as even Panasonic with their 600Mhz TV's have had to admit that despite the latest engine they use, motion blur has not been completely eliminated yet... :)
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What about the stationary blur you get on CRTs the entire time you use them? The focussing, mask and fundamentally analogue nature are physically not capable of giving a crisp, neat, square pixel at any resolution. There's always some distortion and diffusion.
At least on LCD displays, native resolution is always pixel perfect.
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What about the stationary blur you get on CRTs the entire time you use them? The focussing, mask and fundamentally analogue nature are physically not capable of giving a crisp, neat, square pixel at any resolution. There's always some distortion and diffusion.
At least on LCD displays, native resolution is always pixel perfect.
Stationary blur ???
As for the focussing if your capable and know what your doing you can easily adjust the flyback to produce a perfect clear sharp picture. Also if your willing and capable to take the time the coil on the neck of tube can be adjusted to get near perfect convergance for all three colour guns. Any convergance problems still left over can be eliminated with the use of small thin magnetic or metallic strips you carefully place at strategic points on the actual tube itself even under the coil.
I have done this to all the monitors (and TVs) I own and the picture quality for native resolutions is far superior to any LCD monitor I have tested and of course is free from motion blur not to mention far better contrast & brightness ratios...
My brother in law who is a fully qualified TV engineer has even borrowed some of my monitors on occasion to show his fellow engineers who have all been most surprised and even amazed at the picture quality I have achieved using the above methods. As he and his fellow engineers say "most folk wouldn't know what a good picture looked like if it came up and slapped them on the face" and they speak from years of experience in this field... :)
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Stationary blur ???
As for the focussing if your capable and know what your doing you can easily adjust the flyback to produce a perfect clear sharp picture.
Wrong, it is never perfect and that is the point. A pixel that exists conceptually as a discrete rectangular area within your framebuffer is mapped to a diffuse point on a screen by an analogue system that is highly susceptible to electric and magnetic fields. Everything about it, from it's position, shape, brightness and even it's colour are affected by multiple, nonlinear effects. You will never get the same combination of these effects from one day to the next. Your CRT display literally is never the same twice.
Contrast this scenario to LCD, where you have well-defined rectangular (usually square) pixels that aren't susceptible to any such effects.
Also if your willing and capable to take the time the coil on the neck of tube can be adjusted to get near perfect convergance for all three colour guns. Any convergance problems still left over can be eliminated with the use of small thin magnetic or metallic strips you carefully place at strategic points on the actual tube itself even under the coil.
Ahem:
'Particularly blurry' is a bit like saying, ok it's a 100 watt bulb but it really only gives off 60 watts, doesn't cut it with me Im afraid...
Substitute 'particularly blurry' for 'near perfect'.
Basically, what you have described is a trial and error manipulation of the fields around your monitor. If you move your monitor, the necessary placements to counter things like the prevailing magnetic field direction all change too.
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Wrong, it is never perfect and that is the point. A pixel that exists conceptually as a discrete rectangular area within your framebuffer is mapped to a diffuse point on a screen by an analogue system that is highly susceptible to electric and magnetic fields. Everything about it, from it's position, shape, brightness and even it's colour are affected by multiple, nonlinear effects. You will never get the same combination of these effects from one day to the next. Your CRT display literally is never the same twice.
Simple answer to that Cobblers... :)
Contrast this scenario to LCD, where you have well-defined rectangular (usually square) pixels that aren't susceptible to any such effects.
You forgot to mention these lovely square or rectangular pixels have a tendancy to end up stuck or dead... :)
Basically, what you have described is a trial and error manipulation of the fields around your monitor. If you move your monitor, the necessary placements to counter things like the prevailing magnetic field direction all change too.
I refer you to my first answer given in this post... :)
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I have to admit that CRTs beat LCDs almost every time in terms of picture quality.
I love the low power consumption, wide screen aspect ratio and thin-ness of LCD monitors.
But CRTs can handle tons of scan rates and resolutions and they always look great. You can also view them from any angle without changes in brightness.
The only thing that really sucks about CRTs is how heavy and large they are.
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I have to admit that CRTs beat LCDs almost every time in terms of picture quality.
I love the low power consumption, wide screen aspect ratio and thin-ness of LCD monitors.
But CRTs can handle tons of scan rates and resolutions and they always look great. You can also view them from any angle without changes in brightness.
The only thing that really sucks about CRTs is how heavy and large they are.
I agree with you 100% on that, apart from the motion blur the viewing angles on this crappy technology is awful... :)
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Don't get me wrong, I prefer many things about a CRT picture, but one has to be realistic.
Simple answer to that Cobblers... :)
Nope, it was spot on. You can refuse it all you like, but a digitally driven LCD display is as close to an exact representation of what is in the display memory as you are ever going to get. A CRT can't even come close. Project a perfect grid of lines on your CRT and see how uniform they aren't on close inspection. The whole picture is distorted, which is why any decent CRT has so many geometry adjustment settings.
You forgot to mention these lovely square or rectangular pixels have a tendancy to end up stuck or dead... :)
Whereas CRTs suffer no degradation issues :lol:
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Don't get me wrong, I prefer many things about a CRT picture, but one has to be realistic.
I am being realistic and the view of TV's engineers I know back me up on this. Most of them still prefer CRT TVs in their homes as they cannot stand the motion blur, ridiculous viewing angles and lack of decent contrast/brightness ratios. I am in full agreement with them.
Nope, it was spot on. You can refuse it all you like, but a digitally driven LCD display is as close to an exact representation of what is in the display memory as you are ever going to get. A CRT can't even come close. Project a perfect grid of lines on your CRT and see how uniform they aren't on close inspection. The whole picture is distorted, which is why any decent CRT has so many geometry adjustment settings.
I don't just use my monitors for computers I also use them for TV/DVD viewing and the SNES and thanks to a box of tricks I built can do so quite easily even on my MicroVitic Multi sync which has separate H & V syncs which few if any TV or DVD boxes give out, and anyone who has viewed them side by side with an LCD, have agreed the CRT picture quality is superior... :)
Whereas CRTs suffer no degradation issues :lol:
Of course they do over time but this can easily be repaired and if you keep the brightness and contrast at reasonable levels you will get many years of good use from a CRT without the picture becoming soft also they don't suffer from what most LCDs do, that is an uneven backlight... :)
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... but good ol' NTSC and PAL work great through my CV3D scandoubler.
I had high hopes when I read the topic that someone (besides Indiana Jones) had found the Holeey Grail: an LCD monitor on this side of the pond that works with Amiga 15KHz RGB signals. The Quest continues.
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Wrong, it is never perfect and that is the point. A pixel that exists conceptually as a discrete rectangular area within your framebuffer is mapped to a diffuse point on a screen by an analogue system that is highly susceptible to electric and magnetic fields. Everything about it, from it's position, shape, brightness and even it's colour are affected by multiple, nonlinear effects. You will never get the same combination of these effects from one day to the next. Your CRT display literally is never the same twice.
And that is why our US television standard was superior for so many years over the European ones. You guys with your PAL system that never does what you really want it to. Here in the US we used NTSC (Never The Same Color). Our analog interference was a FEATURE! ;)
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I've never tried that model, need to check out the specs for it first. I never usually use a screenmode of more than 640X512 (mostly 640x256), I'll dig around and see what I can find out about, but I'd be very surprised if it has no motion blur at all, as even Panasonic with their 600Mhz TV's have had to admit that despite the latest engine they use, motion blur has not been completely eliminated yet... :)
Hm, have you also tried LED displays?
I got a Samsung Syncmaster BX2235 and I have little to complain about. Granted, it does not have the absolute blackness of the OLED display of my GP2X Wiz, but the picture is awesome, and I haven't noticed any motion blur (unlike on my Samsung LCD tv).
But then again, I haven't used a scandoubler on it and maybe that's exactly what's to blame, the internal scandoubler of LCD tvs being of poor quality.
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Hm, have you also tried LED displays?
You are aware that your "LED display" is actually just another LCD backlit by LEDs instead of a fluorescent light source, I hope. The LED backlighting won't help in the area of motion blur should the LCD panel in front of the backlight still be a poor performer.
LED backlighting is definitely the way to go, but it doesn't cure everything.
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Hm, have you also tried LED displays?
I got a Samsung Syncmaster BX2235 and I have little to complain about. Granted, it does not have the absolute blackness of the OLED display of my GP2X Wiz, but the picture is awesome, and I haven't noticed any motion blur (unlike on my Samsung LCD tv).
But then again, I haven't used a scandoubler on it and maybe that's exactly what's to blame, the internal scandoubler of LCD tvs being of poor quality.
I've checked out a few Samsung models, though I can't say I've checked that particular model. Trouble is no matter what the manufactures claim on the box or in their ads if you question them on their technical helplines or via email and push them hard enough they will all admit that even the latest TVs/Monitors have a degree of motion blur, it's just that most folk don't notice it except for fussy buggers like me... :)
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Don't CRTs also have a degree of motion blur, even close to undetectable, due to the persistent nature of phosphors?
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Don't CRTs also have a degree of motion blur, even close to undetectable, due to the persistent nature of phosphors?
I think your right, on some old 'star field' style effects in some demos, you can see slight 'warp speed' trails, due to phosphor persistance.
On the other hand, lots of 2d games from old systems use phosphor glow to blend colours, deliberately so. These can look damn ugly on LCD, Armalyte (c64) is a good good one to look at.
There is hope though, I read that someone is working on a 'phosphor glow' filter for emulators. Won't help those of us with real hardware though :(
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There is hope though, I read that someone is working on a 'phosphor glow' filter for emulators.
I suppose with (hardware accelerated) alpha blending, you could simply have a fixed length queue of frames. Each new frame, added to the front of the queue, is rendered 100% opaque and then each of the N previous frames is blended on top with an exponential reduction in opacity.
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I suppose with (hardware accelerated) alpha blending, you could simply have a fixed length queue of frames. Each new frame, added to the front of the queue, is rendered 100% opaque and then each of the N previous frames is blended on top with an exponential reduction in opacity.
..and make it variable! One day I may want to emulate a 1702, and the next I might want to emulate a 1084S!
Monitor emulators, the wave of the future. ..or past.
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I had high hopes when I read the topic that someone (besides Indiana Jones) had found the Holeey Grail: an LCD monitor on this side of the pond that works with Amiga 15KHz RGB signals. The Quest continues.
me too, also PicassoIV works good here with all LCD monitors after spending some time configuring it , so this is nothing new or special.
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..and make it variable! One day I may want to emulate a 1702, and the next I might want to emulate a 1084S!
Monitor emulators, the wave of the future. ..or past.
The future is already here.
WinUAE and VICE (commodore 8-bit emulator) already have PAL TV emulators, which add scanlines, blur, colour smearing, and noise artifacts.
Honestly, on my LED monitor, this sort of monitor emulation really makes it look like a television from the 1980s! It's actually awesome....really gives things that retro feel and is the icing on the cake....one of the things that was really missing from retro computer emulation was the feel of the old monitors....the emulation was often too crisp and scan-doubled.
Oh, and I bought one of those Samsung BX LED monitors mentioned above. Got it last week. I'm using in with WinUAE. It's a really good monitor, but like all LCD/LED monitors suffers somewhat from the limited field of view and aliasing of lower resolution screenmodes....but in 1920x1080 native resolution is sharp as a tack.
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You are aware that your "LED display" is actually just another LCD backlit by LEDs instead of a fluorescent light source, I hope. The LED backlighting won't help in the area of motion blur should the LCD panel in front of the backlight still be a poor performer.
LED backlighting is definitely the way to go, but it doesn't cure everything.
You are right. But I thought the LED grid of the LED display showed a b/w picture, and therefore the movement would look better in the case of light-to-dark edges. But I might be wrong :S
I was used to a terrible standard 15" el cheapo laptop display, and now I have a LED display and therefore my judgement might be clouded ;)