Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Franko on November 26, 2010, 03:19:49 PM
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I've been reading through a lot of the old threads here from the early noughties and not even having bothered with the internet until this year I was left feeling a bit dismayed and sad about what seems to have been a huge split and infighting in the Amiga community a number of years ago, mostly with the introduction of OS4 but also MorphOS & Aros Vs so called Classic OS.
I had no idea this had gone on, as when the last of the Amiga magazines rolled of the press and I lost touch with what was happening in the Amiga community. I was left in my own happy little world thinking that all Amiga users were still out their like me doing their best to keep the old machines running. It appears this was not the case and instead of helping one another some sort of silly war broke out and the community split into different factions.
Although this is obviously old news to most of you it's left me wondering for the first time in almost 25 years of being an Amiga user if their is such a thing as the Amiga community anymore and is it worth all the time, money & effort spent on this amazing machine or is it indeed time to move on to pastures new and remember fondly just what a great machine the Amiga was/is.
Given all that, personally I see the Natami as the way forward for the Amiga, as to me it appears it's going to be basically an Amiga that runs 68K code, is fully backward compatible but will run at much faster speeds and can use modern peripherals more easily. This seems to me to be closer to a real Amiga than using MorphOS or Aros running on a processor that is totally alien to the Amiga. I suppose though this will all depend upon the Natami actually making it to production or is it time to truly consider Aros or MorphOS or dare I say it move to pastures new.
Don't get me wrong, I have quite an interest now in Aros & MorphOS and am not putting them down in any way. It just seems to me looking at what I have learned so far about the aforementioned that the Natami would be the best way forward for the Amiga in my humble opinion.
Just wondering now where does everyone else stand with their views on the future of the Amiga and why you truly believe that your personal choice would be the right path for the Amiga to take... :)
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Enjoy what you have and ignore all the BS? i mean, why care what lots of weirdos write on forums online? That said, if Natami is your choice, last i heard they are going to use AROS as well...
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Damn it!!! Where did I put my AROS flag!!! :pissed:
Seriously, for me it's AROS... Both on 68k machines (real or clones-MiniMig, replay etc) for nostalgia... and x86/ARM to get a taste of what it could have been if not for Commodore.
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You'll never get any two former Amiga enthusiasts to agree on what made the Amiga an Amiga, only that the nebulous whole made it what it is.
The truth of the matter is, if it waddles and quacks like a duck then it might as well be a duck. OS1.x-3.x, MOS, OS4, AROS. As for the hardware it's even more vague.
In the end, all that matters is, does it do what you want?
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Actually Franko is pretty lucky to have missed the holy wars...
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Actually Franko is pretty lucky to have missed the holy wars...
Actually I've read through quite a bit of them, reckon if I'd been around here at the time I would have ended up with a lifetime ban... :lol:
I agree with what has been said so far but I'm really interested to hear peoples opinions on where they think the Amiga's future should lye & why... :)
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I agree with bloodline, AROS is the key. We all should have focused on this over a decade ago.
It not only gives us a path forward that is controlled by the community, it also allows us to legally go back for nostalgia as well.
It just takes manpower and time.
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Actually I've read through quite a bit of them, reckon if I'd been around here at the time I would have ended up with a lifetime ban... :lol:
I agree with what has been said so far but I'm really interested to hear peoples opinions on where they think the Amiga's future should lye & why... :)
An interesting question is where your loyalties would have fallen? My initial sympathies fell behind PowerUp as I felt it was a cleaner expansion... This probably would have pushed me towards MOS had I not found AROS in 1999... And more importantly Michal Shlutz's x86 boot floppy...
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Naturally I'm biased.
I use my MorphOS based Powermac everyday and I've just upgraded it with a 1.8 Ghz Sonnett CPU card.
MorphOS will probably be the first Amigoid OS to play Bluray disks (if X86 AROS doesn't beat us to that).
While all of you argue about obsolete hardware/software or projects that aren't quite ready for regular use yet, I'm using a polished derivitive of AOS3.1 that runs much faster than an Amiga, runs many legacy applications, and has a host of MOS specific applications I use daily.
And that's my real point. I use this daily as my primary computer. How many of you can say that about your Amiga of choice?
Of course I support the wide variety of choices available because it increases our user base and offers people different options. I'm not going to try to lure you to my camp, but I know what I'm using has a real, demonstratable advantage in utility.
And were moving forward to laptop support, better graphic cards, and faster processors, all on a stable OS thats got a history that goes back to the last days of the original Amigas.
You all can keep waiting for some future solution, I've got mine and its damned good.
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I'm not too worried about the future, I care more about what I can actually use now, that it happens to be under active development with fairly frequent updates is just a bonus.
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Damn it!!! Where did I put my AROS flag!!! :pissed:
Seriously, for me it's AROS... Both on 68k machines (real or clones-MiniMig, replay etc) for nostalgia... and x86/ARM to get a taste of what it could have been if not for Commodore.
Same here. I want both a Replay and a Natami, though the Replay looks like it'll be most suitable under the TV where my Minimig lives, while the Natami might actually get powerful enough to get more "serious" use, and I'll keep running AROS on one of my X86 boxes too, though likely hosted or in a VM for now...
I still want an X1000 too, though, and I'll keep AmigaOS4 on that because I want to play with that too... This is an expensive hobby :)
My goal is to get to the stage where I return to spending a decent percentage of my time using one or more Amiga-like OS's with as many as possible of the amenities I expect from using mostly Linux for the last 12 years.
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I've been reading through a lot of the old threads here from the early noughties and not even having bothered with the internet until this year I was left feeling a bit dismayed and sad about what seems to have been a huge split and infighting in the Amiga community a number of years ago, mostly with the introduction of OS4 but also MorphOS & Aros Vs so called Classic OS.
I had no idea this had gone on, as when the last of the Amiga magazines rolled of the press and I lost touch with what was happening in the Amiga community. I was left in my own happy little world thinking that all Amiga users were still out their like me doing their best to keep the old machines running. It appears this was not the case and instead of helping one another some sort of silly war broke out and the community split into different factions.
Although this is obviously old news to most of you it's left me wondering for the first time in almost 25 years of being an Amiga user if their is such a thing as the Amiga community anymore and is it worth all the time, money & effort spent on this amazing machine or is it indeed time to move on to pastures new and remember fondly just what a great machine the Amiga was/is.
Given all that, personally I see the Natami as the way forward for the Amiga, as to me it appears it's going to be basically an Amiga that runs 68K code, is fully backward compatible but will run at much faster speeds and can use modern peripherals more easily. This seems to me to be closer to a real Amiga than using MorphOS or Aros running on a processor that is totally alien to the Amiga. I suppose though this will all depend upon the Natami actually making it to production or is it time to truly consider Aros or MorphOS or dare I say it move to pastures new.
Don't get me wrong, I have quite an interest now in Aros & MorphOS and am not putting them down in any way. It just seems to me looking at what I have learned so far about the aforementioned that the Natami would be the best way forward for the Amiga in my humble opinion.
Just wondering now where does everyone else stand with their views on the future of the Amiga and why you truly believe that your personal choice would be the right path for the Amiga to take... :)
At the risk of sounding negative,its looking dismal. Used to be a time(yea the good old days) when everyone was working for one common goal to improve the amiga hardware and software wise. Sadly now you have half a dozen factions split off in all directions.most ignore the real machine and scoff about it being too slow instead of fixing it.Half of them whine real amiga stuff is too expensive but don't realize it holds its value mostly when you sell it which is a good thing and could be considered an investment.Some whine its not available,which is total BS because the typical 1200 is what $150-$500usd depending what it comes with.not often you can run a computer for 2,5,10 years and sell it for nearly what you paid or more in some cases. Most clones/macs depreciate before you even buy them.Luckily, some companies like e3b/individual still make hardware for our beloved old amiga's but suffer from ever declining market of real amiga hardware users and are forced to live in ever shrinking markets.You guys won't like this,but emulation users are partly to blame for this because when you quit being part of the amiga market,then you are helping to shrink the numbers for these companies to sell to and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that when they go we are left in the cold..Lets face it most emu users don't support the hardware makers by buying hardware and rarely if ever buy software(theres a few who do i know)..Then we have some emulator/PC users who code for the amiga but code bloatware designed to run on fake speeds emulation provides,and this contaminates the 68K code on aminet with apps that aren't even usable on a real amiga because they crawl(thanks assholes!).I can't count the number of times when someone asks a question about their hardware or some such that he/she is told "just got do it on a emulator or get a emulator its easier"... In the old days amigan's would band together to try and solve a problem,be it lack of a certain piece of hardware or a program and fix the problem.Emulation,aros,and now morphos with its lack of real amiga hardware support have joined the problem,splitting the amiga community further apart.They say aros will run on a real amiga,but then whats the point?
The reality is none of us would even be here if it weren't for the real machines. They are what a amiga is,you cannot simply reduce it to a OS.You can put amiga stickers all over clones pc's with emulation and call it amiga,but its not.If you do this you are missing out on the coolness that made amiga. I can say the only thing happening lately that seems remotely interesting is the NAtami,but i can't understand why they would want AROS.
The whole point of the A1000 was originally to do something new and revolutionary.When all your criteria for running amiga os is to simply dump it on cheap hardware,you have lost sight of this,and reduced it to just a OS. I can't help thing if amigans had stuck together true on their hardware,if we'd of not of had new ppc boards by now. The market was only viable when enough people want it.Amiga hardware was pretty dead end from the start but theres still so much more that could be done with it. Look at the atari crowd,they have 100Mhz+ 060 accelerators with fast ram. Why did no one put ethernet,and or usb on an accelerator for amiga? We can't say cost is the problem,because the atari people managed it, maybe they just stick together better than we do?
You see franko,i lived thru all this mess, i have been at this stuff since late 87'. i have seen it all. So much wasted time bickering,and watching people split off in factions,which don't even get along.Most won't agree,but it is pretty hopeless. Your choices are a real amiga,emulation on a pc clone,aros,morphos on a mac,or the new Aeon stuff that most can't afford and natami,which for me holds the most interesting hope.we may see natami,maybe not. I don't see a video slot on the natami,so old toaster users may be left out,it talks about zorro tho but i cant tell if the slots on board are original size zorro slots.
For now i stick with my real hardware,its the best feeling i get when i use it still but i won't kid my self.
Flame away gents ;)
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An interesting question is where your loyalties would have fallen? My initial sympathies fell behind PowerUp as I felt it was a cleaner expansion... This probably would have pushed me towards MOS had I not found AROS in 1999... And more importantly Michal Shlutz's x86 boot floppy...
I also invested in PowerUp, but when WarpOS came along with it's then much improved context switching time and later emulation of powerup, I got lured to the other side.
Then it all got a bit meh and I lost interest in the scene all together for quite some time.
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I find the current situation very interesting and my opinions are shifting somewhat as a consequence of recent developments!
We have new accelerators for the classics, current development of OS4.x (IMO the true Amiga successor), backporting of OS4.1, Natami (which I understood would run a modified 3.x?), MiniMig AGA with super-fast memory access and huge chunks of cache ... so many interesting developments.
We then have AROS which I'm becoming increasingly interested in. IMO it's not a 'true successor to AOS' *but* the fact it's becoming usable as an everyday OS *and* being backported to run on classic hardware is fantastic news too. I hear a rumour AROS may also be used for Natami...
OS4.x is driving forward on new PPC hardware (X1000) with multi-core support etc, new XMOS technology ... the recent video of Hyperion talks at AmiWest has renewed my enthusiasm for OS4 and associated hardware.
I've always had an interest in MorphOS but have yet to acquire hardware to run it on. It looks very nice though, with it's own set of applications - and probably the most advanced OS in terms of daily usability.
In the past we've had too few 'dead end' options. We now have too many options all with a promising future. So many options I don't know which path (or paths) to take!
I certainly don't think it's time to jump ship - for once things are looking very positive. The only current downer is the damage Commodore USA are hoping to do to the Amiga name/brand.
Steve
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Must there be a way foreward? Most of my Amigas are as functional and fun to use as ever. I certainly have enjoyed the advancing OS (3.5, and 3.9) and the brilliant hardware that has emerged since Commodore's death. I intend to continue this way for a long time. I have no illusions about Amiga returning from the fringe. Strangely, I find this comforting in a way. How many other people (besides us) have a computer plateform all to themselves?
Before responsibilty grabbed me, I had the time to learn Amiga OS very thoroughly. I will never get the chance to learn another OS to the same depth. Not that I want to, Amiga may be the last OS to truly serve the user. Besides, I can always turn on a newer machine when a modern file comes along.
Do I need greener pastures? For me there aren't any. Computer advancement moves far faster than people, society, government and laws, and my ability to adapt. I was ready for it all to stop when computers made good librarians for books, music, and movies. The advances of the last 5 years seem much more Orwellian, the projected next 20 years may turn into a nightmare for our civilization. Jay Miner may have got more right than our favorite computer. :(
My 2 cents.
EDIT: Sorry for the gloom, I found iMonitor running on my corporate laptop the other day. It was a sobering moment!
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Same here. I want both a Replay and a Natami, though the Replay looks like it'll be most suitable under the TV where my Minimig lives, while the Natami might actually get powerful enough to get more "serious" use, and I'll keep running AROS on one of my X86 boxes too, though likely hosted or in a VM for now...
I still want an X1000 too, though, and I'll keep AmigaOS4 on that because I want to play with that too... This is an expensive hobby :)
My goal is to get to the stage where I return to spending a decent percentage of my time using one or more Amiga-like OS's with as many as possible of the amenities I expect from using mostly Linux for the last 12 years.
This isn't that expensive a hobby for me or Golem. And when you finally get your X1000, I'll probably have a G5 Mac with a X850 XT video card that will outperform it.
The Natami looks like a neat system as does the minimig w/ AGA, but these aren't realistic systems for everyday use.
As I said before, you keep blowing your money on old hardware or re-creations of old hardware. I'm getting more use out of what I've got and its gets better on a regular basis.
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I also partly agree with Mechy - if all the time invested in AROS, MorphOS, Natami etc was spent developing/advancing the original hardware & software we'd probably have a very advanced common platform now. However, due to the legal screw-ups and uncertainty I guess this wasn't possible.
I still maintain my positive view of the current situation though. Forgetting all the previous problems we're currently in a great (if fragmented) position. I expect in another year or two we'll see some projects vanish and others gain support. Through natural selection the most useful will survive.
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@mechy
Seriously, if you want revolutionary you are looking at totally the wrong retro hobby platform :lol:
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I also partly agree with Mechy - if all the time invested in AROS, MorphOS, Natami etc was spent developing/advancing the original hardware & software we'd probably have a very advanced common platform now. However, due to the legal screw-ups and uncertainty I guess this wasn't possible.
I still maintain my positive view of the current situation though. Forgetting all the previous problems we're currently in a great (if fragmented) position. I expect in another year or two we'll see some projects vanish and others gain support. Through natural selection the most useful will survive.
I don't think AROS or MorphOS are going to disappear anytime soon. I do worry about AOS4.X, but hopefully that will survive.
AROS68K looks like it has a lot of support, and the Natami may be released eventually.
I can't agree with you about a consolidation of resources/effort. We have survived because WE have carried this forward. If we were to make the mistake of investing all our hope again in one endeavor I'm convinvibced it would fail.
We break the Amiga curse by not commiting to a saviour, but by devoting our resources to what WE want.
Screw the people who have disappointed us, broken their promises, and still try to profit off the trademarks they have helped denigrate.
We know what Amiga is, we will direct its future(s), and diversity is helping ius, not hurting us.
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@Iggy
Put simply: don't put all your eggs in one basket...
Well said :)
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@Iggy
Put simply: don't put all your eggs in one basket...
Well said :)
Damed right!. I use and support MorphOS, but I SO much want to see all these other projects suceed.
If Amiga is to make a comeback, it will be due to OUR efforts, not Amiga Inc. or Commodore USA.
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Reckon I have to agree a lot with what Mechy has to say as I seem to have travelled much the same Amiga path as him although I don't quite agree with his dismal outlook on the Amigas future. As for running the Amiga under emulation on a PC or MAC just to benefit from easy access to readily available peripherals then that to me is not what the Amiga is about.
I have to disagree with Iggy's viewpoint on the Amiga, ie:- wanting to play BluRay discs, to me that's why you'd buy a BluRay Recorder/Player. I don't mind what it costs me money wise to keep my Amigas going and will most likely end up purchasing a MiniMigAGA, Natami & X1000 if/when they become available. I've said elsewhere before that for all my computing needs the Amiga covers it all except for the internet, thats what I use the Mac for, the net & for nothing else.
While I sincerely hope that all the various options continue to flourish and that diversity is good up to a point, Mechy makes a very good point though about all this diversity eroding away the custom base of the few hardware developers & retailers who still strive to bring us genuine Amiga hardware.
While we can all hope that various methods we choose as individuals to remain an Amiga user continues to flourish I can't help but wonder why some are willing to spend money on a PC or MAC and run an Amiga under emulation and not invest some of that cash in purchasing genuine Amiga hardware (old or New) and help keep alive the few hardware developers & retailers who still strive to support the Amiga. :)
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While we can all hope that various methods we choose as individuals to remain an Amiga user continues to flourish I can't help but wonder why some are willing to spend money on a PC or MAC and run an Amiga under emulation and not invest some of that cash in purchasing genuine Amiga hardware (old or New) and help keep alive the few hardware developers & retailers who still strive to support the Amiga. :)
Reason why most people have opted for x86 (or shortly ARM) is UAE (in whatever flavor) plays the Amiga games and that is what it was all about, play games. Some of us would not buy classic hardware nor PPC because there is no benefit to do so. I look at the AROS/MOS/OS4 groups and shake my head because none of them are true Next Generation OSs that I need to run today. Once one of them can do true SMP with MP, give me a call when it can run on portables of my choosing.
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@bloodline: no idea where you got the idea i want a revolution,never said anything in my post about a revolt, i simply call it like i see it for better or for worse.
@franko you probabaly added to what i wanted to say quite well,ports to other hardware are just cheap easy way out.My fingers are just tired from lifting the fork of leftover turkey! (happy thanksgiving to all who celebrated it yesterday!)to type much more ;)
@tcmslp You have probabaly hit the nail right on the head.. imagine what could of been accomplished with everyone working toward one better goal/machine. We have these coders who know the amiga inside and out,and where is the effort put toward????? emulation .. what a waste. All these people saying that the 3x kickstart roms are a problem etc is silly,they are still for sale and easy to get and will be for a long time.Why is it no one can build some hardware with a boostrap rom(simular how draco vision does it) that adds the wanted missing stuff to the real rom. OS3.9 COULD of had real roms sold with it,the eproms are not expensive and programming them is not a big deal! the damn eproms cost $6 or less each new! With the simple bootstrap roms,we could have bootable cdroms and mem sticks.. you can basically do this with deneb now. same principle!
@Tenacious You also make a good point.. All this time the amiga still does and will do what its always done and what it is good at. Most people dont realize it,but they try and turn it into a modern internet/1080P movie watching machine to replace the clone/mac,which is ok,i'm all for killer apps on amiga,but trying to keep up with the joneses is not always practicle.Like everyone else i want to see us progress,i want faster/better amiga's too,but the way its going is not the best way imho.
There is so much stuff that could be fixed/improved on this old amiga hardware.
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I'm personally uninterested in anybody's turf wars over what the "true" Amiga future is. For me, it's the 68k and the OCS/ECS hardware and the elegant OS design that make the Amiga the Amiga, and that's always going to be the case, but I'm not going to begrudge PPC fans their own accomplishments. Not sure what I think of AROS as a whole yet, but I am at least grateful that they're working towards an open-source Kickstart, as that's going to be especially useful for NatAmi. As for NatAmi, I'm not holding my breath for it to be ready in the immediate future, but I am hopeful - I'd very much like to see new 68k Amiga hardware in production. That's my two cents.
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There is so much stuff that could be fixed/improved on this old amiga hardware.
I've often wondered why more effort has not been put into booting from a CD for all models. I think you have a great idea about creating a grass-roots rom.
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Reason why most people have opted for x86 (or shortly ARM) is UAE (in whatever flavor) plays the Amiga games and that is what it was all about, play games. Some of us would not buy classic hardware nor PPC because there is no benefit to do so. I look at the AROS/MOS/OS4 groups and shake my head because none of them are true Next Generation OSs that I need to run today. Once one of them can do true SMP with MP, give me a call when it can run on portables of my choosing.
Man have you missed out if you think the Amiga is only a games console, I aint knocking anyone who just uses the Amiga (in whatever form) for just playing games but there's a whole lot more interesting & productive things the Amiga can do. Give it a try sometime you might just be pleasantly surprised... :)
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I've often wondered why more effort has not been put into booting from a CD for all models. I think you have a great idea about creating a grass-roots rom.
Well the cyberstorm MK3 and ppc can boot from cdrom, not sure about the bliz? but i suspect it can also.you stopped one revision too early on the phase 5 cards tenacious ;) hehe
I'm pretty sure installing a cdfs in the deneb rom is possiblke for booting also?
sorry franko! off on a tangent in your thread
If i could get away with it,i would dump a shitload of os3.9 real eproms out there.. hehe
mike
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@bloodline: no idea where you got the idea i want a revolution,never said anything in my post about a revolt, i simply call it like i see it for better or for worse.
Well Here (From your post):
¨You can put amiga stickers all over clones pc's with emulation and call it amiga,but its not.If you do this you are missing out on the coolness that made amiga. I can say the only thing happening lately that seems remotely interesting is the NAtami,but i can't understand why they would want AROS.
The whole point of the A1000 was originally to do something new and revolutionary.When all your criteria for running amiga os is to simply dump it on cheap hardware,you have lost sight of this,and reduced it to just a OS.¨
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This isn't that expensive a hobby for me or Golem. And when you finally get your X1000, I'll probably have a G5 Mac with a X850 XT video card that will outperform it.
When maximum performance matters to me, I have my Linux box which can easily crush any box you can MorphOS on while running several instances of AROS and UAE hosted side by side, as well as assorted other VM's if I so want.
Old PowerPC based Mac's simply have no appeal to me, regardless which OS they run. We recently threw a fully working one away at work because nobody could be bothered taking it home.
The Natami looks like a neat system as does the minimig w/ AGA, but these aren't realistic systems for everyday use.
As I said before, you keep blowing your money on old hardware or re-creations of old hardware. I'm getting more use out of what I've got and its gets better on a regular basis.
MorphOS on a G5 wouldn't be a realistic system for everyday use for me either. I don't have any animosity towards MorphOS but it just doesn't interest me - AROS appeals to me because it's open source, and AmigaOS4/X1000 appeals to me because it's new hardware specifically designed for AmigaOS. Classic AmigaOS appeals to me because, well, it's M68k and the classic chipset or derivations of it that I know and love. MorphOS has none of those.
If MorphOS does it for you, then good for you, but to me it doesn't matter at all if it's more "cost effective". Cost effective is what my Linux box is for.
I'm not "blowing my money" on anything. I'm spending money on things I enjoy to tinker with. As I said: It's a hobby.
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My interest is mostly in the original hardware, so natami seems like a fun option if it materializes.
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Well Here (From your post):
¨You can put amiga stickers all over clones pc's with emulation and call it amiga,but its not.If you do this you are missing out on the coolness that made amiga. I can say the only thing happening lately that seems remotely interesting is the NAtami,but i can't understand why they would want AROS.
The whole point of the A1000 was originally to do something new and revolutionary.When all your criteria for running amiga os is to simply dump it on cheap hardware,you have lost sight of this,and reduced it to just a OS.¨
I still don't see how talking about the amiga 1000 being revolutionary at the time says i want to start a revolt?Maybe i'm tired and just missing something here?
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If Natami is released, if the price is reasonable, and if it operates as planned, I think it will be a very exciting entry into this crowded "Amiga" niche world.
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I left all the Amiga sites during the problem era, I was just sick of hearing it. I came back as a retro user, rather than the current user desperate for the OS/hardware to move forward.
I guess I had come terms with the fact that it was over for the Amiga (for me) as a viable mainstream alternative.
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Future wise I love Natami :)
That is because it will be a full Amiga compatible and what we do most, so playing games on them.
But at current I enjoy Classic WB 3.1 with WHDLoad and that is what matters.
Office/work stuff belong on my PC, Amiga = for fun.
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Man have you missed out if you think the Amiga is only a games console, I aint knocking anyone who just uses the Amiga (in whatever form) for just playing games but there's a whole lot more interesting & productive things the Amiga can do. Give it a try sometime you might just be pleasantly surprised... :)
No, I played very very little amount of games on the Amiga. My old frankenstien A500 ran a BBS/UUCP site for like seven years with CNet PRO. Loved that OS, it was wonderful. Fast forward to 2010, I'm primarily using Linux (FC14) with some M$ for a two games (DAoC and WarHammer) and Skype conferencing. I would love to have a cool Amiga like OS that was modern (SMP/MP at a minimum) that was running on mobile devices.
Now the Amiga community in my neck of the woods in the early 90s, it was all about games. They were the driving force behind Amiga, purchasing (or pirating) of games. They bought bigger and better hardware to play the games at high frame rates. If you want to ignore that point in history, it's up to you. I do know what I'm talking about on this side of the pond, and unless your were a small group doing VT work, it was all about playing games. Now they are doing the console for, you guessed it, games!
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This isn't that expensive a hobby for me or Golem. And when you finally get your X1000, I'll probably have a G5 Mac with a X850 XT video card that will outperform it.
The Natami looks like a neat system as does the minimig w/ AGA, but these aren't realistic systems for everyday use.
As I said before, you keep blowing your money on old hardware or re-creations of old hardware. I'm getting more use out of what I've got and its gets better on a regular basis.
X1000's ATI R700 support says Hi.
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Eierkuchen
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I still don't see how talking about the amiga 1000 being revolutionary at the time says i want to start a revolt?Maybe i'm tired and just missing something here?
Giving free X1000 systems to disgruntled students in the UK would start a revolution.
:rtfm:
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Actually Franko is pretty lucky to have missed the holy wars...
Many a troll perished...
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@ dammy
From your first post here it came across to me that all you had used the Amiga for was playing games, nice to hear that you used it for something a bit more worthwhile like your BBS. Myself and my friends had already grown tired of just using a computer to just play games (coming from the era of the VIC 20 & C64) by the time I got my first A1000 at the start of 86. By the end of 87 I had two A500 and a couple of Star dot matrix printers and was running my own DTP/Design business from home.
Although I bought almost every game ever released for the Amiga, in this neck of the woods we did play them but most of our time was spent cracking them, creating demo's, writing mods, programming and creating VHS music/gfx videos using the likes of Digi-View & Digi-Paint. The actual playing of games was never very big around these parts. I do agree that probably for most users games were the number 1 purpose for buying an Amiga but the circles I moved in and probably because of the age range we belonged to we had kinda outgrown games and were more interested in seeing just what we could push the Amiga to do.
Strangly enough the only console I've ever owned is the SNES and it's the only thing I really still use these days for playing games. My Amiga collection very rarely gets used for games at all anymore as I still prefer to tinker and program on them more than anything thing else... :)
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@Franco
Hey there fellow Scotlander!
Have you got the right point or what!
For me - absolutely, the whole thing about retro computing is about what we can do with the original hardware and OS's but also what we can do through hardware emulation to keep the whole thing alive (like Minimig and Natami etc)
Lets face it, Amiga hardware is up to 25 years old now and getting accelerators and expansions is difficult. Individual computers is helping that with their new generation of decently priced expansions for the A1200 and the A600 recently but without that the chances of keeping our beloved machines in tip top form and expanding them to do other things is a big challenge.
I could care less about the other stuff like Aros and OS4 etc. I do like the idea of it but it's not for me. I want my Amiga to run the Apps and Games it could always run but if possible do it quicker with new apps and games lol
I have an A600 and a Minimig. the latter of the two I exhibited at R3Play in Blackpool just recently and I could not believe the interest it generated. For me, yes, keep the original machines running for as long as possible because we love them but the future is all about coming up with something that runs on modern hardware and emulates the Amiga models perfectly (at a hardware level) - then the dream is still alive!
As for the back biting visceral decrying of the new development amiga's (like Natami and also what the Minimig received) - this needs to stop. These people who are doing this are dedicated to doing something for the community we all belong to and whether it is a success or not we should support them. It's not like they are going to get rich from it and have relaunched the Commodore name by producing crap PC clones. They're doing a shed more for this community than many of the ney-sayers on here and other forums and at least have the vision to try and push the barriers. After all was that not what the premise of the Amiga was the first place?
Anyhoo - rant over - the Amiga for me personally is in one a nostalgic return to my youth when the "scene" meant more to me than breathing and every weekend saw me visiting my mates stall in the Barras (Glasgow) to discuss the latest developments and to participate in that weekends Kick Off and Sensi Tournaments but it also it was the platform I learned 3D modelling, animation and Desk Top publishing on which from that platform I got my MCSE, Novell Master CNE, (defunct) Compaq system builder, ItIL Manger accreditations and I'm now an exec IT Manager for a big national company and doing pretty well in comparison and this is all down to early exposure of a machine that could challenge me to do more.
Cheers
John
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Many a troll perished...
Many a troll was born also...
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Many a troll was born also...
All in all, a recycling operation then :roflmao:
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Still think we should have troll of the year award....
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All in all, a recycling operation then :roflmao:
My recent visit back to Moo reminded me that I practically learned how to argue/debate because of the Amiga Holy wars!
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My recent visit back to Moo reminded me that I practically learned how to argue/debate because of the Amiga Holy wars!
I got the impression someone there doesn't like me very much :lol:
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I got the impression someone there doesn't like me very much :lol:
"It is a silly place..."
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"It is a silly place..."
(http://www.filmforum.org/films/python/holygrail3.jpg)
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@ skilgannon
ahh... the good auld days up at ra Barras, spent many a Saturday and Sunday their buying and trading all the latest games, and running like hell when someone shouted 'it's ra polis'... :lol:
I even remember once spotting a A500 for sale lying in a manky puddle at Paddies Market... :)
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I got the impression someone there doesn't like me very much :lol:
At least they care enough to kick up a fuss... the biggest insult is to be ignored...
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At least they care enough to kick up a fuss... the biggest insult is to be ignored...
:lol: I suppose so...
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When maximum performance matters to me, I have my Linux box which can easily crush any box you can MorphOS on while running several instances of AROS and UAE hosted side by side, as well as assorted other VM's if I so want.
Old PowerPC based Mac's simply have no appeal to me, regardless which OS they run. We recently threw a fully working one away at work because nobody could be bothered taking it home.
MorphOS on a G5 wouldn't be a realistic system for everyday use for me either. I don't have any animosity towards MorphOS but it just doesn't interest me - AROS appeals to me because it's open source, and AmigaOS4/X1000 appeals to me because it's new hardware specifically designed for AmigaOS. Classic AmigaOS appeals to me because, well, it's M68k and the classic chipset or derivations of it that I know and love. MorphOS has none of those.
If MorphOS does it for you, then good for you, but to me it doesn't matter at all if it's more "cost effective". Cost effective is what my Linux box is for.
I'm not "blowing my money" on anything. I'm spending money on things I enjoy to tinker with. As I said: It's a hobby.
Well obviously you do have a bias. And I couldn't care less if your Linux box wants to blow me (away).
New hardware designed for AmigaOS? AOS4 and MorphOS are frightengly similar products and neither supports classic hardware w/o a PPC processor.
If you're fixated on 68K and OCS/ECS that's one thing, but then you mention interest in the X1000.
I admit I like that computer too. I'd Like it better if it ran MorphOS.
And I wish Linux users, UAE users, and X86 fanatics in general would stop trying to convince me that they've got some exceptional solution. I have a PC. I'm posting this on a Mac.
And when the X1000 is finally available, I'll probably still be using a Mac, not just because its cost effective, because they perform better than PPC systems available to AmigaOS users.
Its a shame that Hyperion didn't release a final version if AOS4 for the Mac Mini, they might have sold a few more copies of their OS to people who want more performance than you can get from an Applied Micro based Acube motherboard. And Franko, its not that I think running blurays on a computer is practical, its just that we may have the power to do it (without having to resort to a PC).
As I've said before, whatever you prefer is fine by me as long as you're supporting some segment of the community.
X1000's ATI R700 support says Hi.
Great! Where can I buy one?
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(http://www.filmforum.org/films/python/holygrail3.jpg)
Knew you'd get it straight away!!1
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Great! Where can I buy one?
LOL Aren't we all a bunch of cynical bastards these days! :lol:
Excellent!
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LOL Aren't we all a bunch of cynical bastards these days! :lol:
Excellent!
I'm not a conspiracy theorist but I reckon there were subliminal messages in the old guru meditations that turned us all into cynical bastards... :roflmao:
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LOL Aren't we all a bunch of cynical bastards these days! :lol:
Excellent!
Yah, I can be a real dick sometimes, but everyone's got to have a hobby.
You know, I was in contact with Varisys before the connection between them and A-eon was reveiled. In fact we were speculating on MorphZone about the possibility before the announcement.
I really DO like that machine and to those who speculate that its not a good design, let me tell you I know one of the designers and Varisys knows their sh*t.
I'd also love a Natami when Thomas gets it ready for sale. Register level compatibility with classic hardware would be great.
I just know what I need for a daily use system (and I have it).
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I just know what I need for a daily use system (and I have it).
Reckon that's what really matters at the end of the day... :)
I think we all just still like to try and convince each other that our own personal choice is the best way to go as it passes the time as we all sit here getting older and waiting for something to happen, kinda like old age pensioners comparing ailments & diseases with each other... :)
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New hardware designed for AmigaOS? AOS4 and MorphOS are frightengly similar products and neither supports classic hardware w/o a PPC processor.
If you're fixated on 68K and OCS/ECS that's one thing, but then you mention interest in the X1000.
Well, I mentioned three different things that draw me to three different solutions that all appeal to me for their connections to the "Amiga feeling". Maybe I take a look at MorphOS some day too, if it gets ported to some more interesting hardware.
Personally I very much hope that cross-Amiga-like OS development will start to get easier, as I while I actually find the diversity a strength in some ways (we're pretty much guaranteed to always have hardware that can run one of our OS's directly or in emulation, for starters...), where it really sucks is in duplication of effort in porting and writing new software. That's our biggest weakness at the moment.
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My standpoint:
I come a long way from 68k, but started migration to ppc more than a decade ago. I sold all my 68k stuff except a vanilla A600. I like the Arcade replay though and am thinking of accquiring one for the retro part in me.
But I am not much of a retro guy, but look rather forward. I try to get the best and most optimized solution. Hence I migrated to MorphOS. Currently I use it for about 90% of my private computing things (Skye is one of the few things I boot Linux or OS X for) and a good amount of my job's computer things.
MorphOS is highly optimized and matured, many apps available for it are really nice. I think it is the most advanced Amigaish system today *by far*.
But I also like AROS. It is open source and free and catches up. And it runs on even more hardware. For MorphOS and OS4 on ppc the air is rather thin on the hardware side. MorphOS at least supports proven, easily and cheaply availabe hardware that is good enough for the next couple of years.
What I also like on MorphOS is the developers and most users. Usually they view things rather realistic. No pipe dreams, but realistic views. And I use MorphOS since the 0.4 release and while many things during the first half of the recent decade didn't developed as hoped the MorphOS team didn't quit but proceeded and the development pace is good today.
The next big step will be the powerbook support. And while I used WinUAE on a laptop ages ago, this will be a new level (this is where AROS actually leads).
Plus, it is big fun to see OS X struggle on things that MorphOS does on the same hardware quite well.
With my about 10 years af MorphOS support I thing I drove quite well and don't see a point to change that. But I will take AROS more into consideration as well (but it is still miles awaay from MorphOS) and maybe add myself an arcade replay maschine for fun of it.
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I only stand near amiga.org waiting for news about remakes of old classics, and also shake my head "once in a while".
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Well, I mentioned three different things that draw me to three different solutions that all appeal to me for their connections to the "Amiga feeling". Maybe I take a look at MorphOS some day too, if it gets ported to some more interesting hardware.
Personally I very much hope that cross-Amiga-like OS development will start to get easier, as I while I actually find the diversity a strength in some ways (we're pretty much guaranteed to always have hardware that can run one of our OS's directly or in emulation, for starters...), where it really sucks is in duplication of effort in porting and writing new software. That's our biggest weakness at the moment.
Sorry about the snide tone in the last posting. I have never been a fan of apple hardware myself (probably because Steve Jobs is such a tool). But G4 Macs under MorphOS don't feel like Macs, frankly its hard to tell the difference between OS4 and MorphOS.
And AROS, AOS4, and MorphOS all are backward compatible with 3.1. Porting software across all three platforms is fairly easy.
Porting across all Amiga platforms is possible. I've seen packages that run on all them.
And I do sympathize with you about Linux, emulation and virtual machines. PC pricing is hard to beat. I just upgraded my Foxconn motherboard (which has four x16 PCIe slots) with a Phenom X3 for <$70 (@Newegg) that I can run at 3.3 Ghz.
The 1.8 Ghz Sonnett upgrade card for my Powermac set me back $150 (more then I spent on the whole system). So I guess I've got no right to lecture on ecomomy.
Besides, if I had the money, I'd probably buy an X1000 too.
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FPGA clones and AROS are the only things that really excite me in the Amiga world. I don't have a problem with the other options, though, and unlike some of you, I see variety and choice as being far more beneficial than a having a single monolithic proprietary platform.
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Hi,
@Franko,
Well I have an Amiga 4000, and Amiga 1200 up and running as of today. Of course the A4000 has been my data holder since 1992. The only time I fire up my A4000 is to update data. Now for playing games I use Amiga Forever by Cloanto. I have been trying to see how long I could maintain data on AF, but it is not AF that is the problem it is Windows (I mean Windows 7 too) It still crashes and burns, but then again since this does not hold any of my real data, who cares (I should care since Windows 7 probably costs more than an A500).
Anyhow I like Amiga Forever because it can use all the new hardware thats out there. I can use usb drives to back up my files (and with windows this is a must). No it is not like the real Amiga, but I do like the speed, I like using the new modern day hardware and to put it simply it works, its cheap and it is here today.
If any of you chairback engineers disagree tough luck, come up with something better.
Please don't insult the Amiga by running it on a MAC. I used to be a Commodore salesman selling Amiga's and I really hated those smug, coniving tie and suit shootholes.
Oh don't buy that Amiga it is just a fancy toy. It can't really do any professional work.
Why do I like the PC, I really don't, but they are cheap, available, and can run the Amiga software today. I don't have to spend $2700 for them, and for an investment of less than a $1000 I usually can make one kicka** game machine that runs Amiga software.
smerf
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Please don't insult the Amiga by running it on a MAC. I used to be a Commodore salesman selling Amiga's and I really hated those smug, coniving tie and suit shootholes.
smerf
Sorry dude, I can understand your attitude about Apple fanatics and the smug salesmen. But using their hardware to run a better OS is a great personal comment about how lame OSX is.
And the only good use for a Mac IS using it to run Amiga software and Apple abandoned these machines so I feel OK using them. Besides I don't even have OSX installed on my Powermac.
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Please don't insult the Amiga by running it on a MAC. I used to be a Commodore salesman selling Amiga's and I really hated those smug, coniving tie and suit *****holes.
Just because you have issues with Mac and Mac salesmen everyone should stay away from Macs? I find that somewhat arrogant really.
Mac PowerPC HW is great, certainly better than anything that is available currently. Please don't insult us by telling us to avoid it just because you have issues.
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Where I stand is not really a mystery if you've read any of my articles over at amigaz.org
To summarise; A long time ago there was a computing platform called Amiga. It allowed users to express their digital creativity in a way that other systems allowed much later. It was conceived and created by people who knew what they were doing. Manufactured and sold by people who refused to learn and adapt.
Nothing available today holds the hope for the future, because they're all looking to the past.
Anything new that may embody the spirit of the Amiga will most likely not go by that name. It will allow a new generation of people to express their digital creativity in new ways, in ways that other systems will mimic in years to come. It will be conceived and created by people who know what they're doing, and hopefully this time it will be manufactured and sold by people eager to learn and adapt to changes.
For this new computing platform I maintain hope.
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Just because you have issues with Mac and Mac salesmen everyone should stay away from Macs? I find that somewhat arrogant really.
Mac PowerPC HW is great, certainly better than anything that is available currently. Please don't insult us by telling us to avoid it just because you have issues.
I think he was just expressing a personal opinion "Please don't insult" and "I really hated" that's a personal view and a most entitled one." I didn't pick up an insinuation that every one should follow his opinion?
For me I tend to agree with agami's starting premise, I think the world has moved on now. The Amiga was a fantastic computer. Without major corporate/manufacturer support and backing in the 80's it would never have got off the ground. Today it 'aint going to happen any other way.
I think if you treat the flavours as a serious hobby that should be enough for anyone and maybe a large corporate investor will take a flowering idea and turn it into another fantastic computer. Maybe.
There's been a bit of a mention of trolls in this thread, funnily I see an analogy between the Amiga and the Elves in LOTR; "the time of the Elves has past, the time of Men is here."
You can't change Men into Elves even if you put fake pointed ears on them, they're still Men, they just have fake pointed ears.
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Hi,
Please don't insult the Amiga by running it on a MAC. I used to be a Commodore salesman selling Amiga's and I really hated those smug, coniving tie and suit shootholes.
Oh don't buy that Amiga it is just a fancy toy. It can't really do any professional work.
smerf
Ok, Apple are still around and Commodore aren't... so maybe you should have been a better salesman like the Apple guys... Backatcha! ;)
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Apple sales people are a bunch of toffee nosed twats (well the one's in the official Apple store in Edinburgh are anyway) plus half of the dunderheids who work there talk with a grating half Scottish half American accents, get right up my nose so they do, hope at the next students strike they pan in their windows and loot the bloody place... :madashell:
RANT OVER... Apologies to all... (except if you work in that ruddy shop..) :)
(Mind you I'm from Glasgow & we don't like Edinburgh folk anyways, east & west don't mix... ;))
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@Iggy & Piru
I expected better from you guys than to bite on smerf's trollbait :D
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Reckon I have to agree a lot with what Mechy has to say as I seem to have travelled much the same Amiga path as him although I don't quite agree with his dismal outlook on the Amigas future. As for running the Amiga under emulation on a PC or MAC just to benefit from easy access to readily available peripherals then that to me is not what the Amiga is about.
I think one of the big problems is that some people believe their idea about an amiga is the only true way of thinking about an amiga e.g. like you guys think it is the m68k hardware with coprocessors. My - probably Utopian - wish is that all people could consider people running some form of Amiga 'system' like UAE, OS3.x, OS4.x, MOS, AROS be part of the amiga community and not part of the betrayals to the Amiga cause.
I have an A2000, A1200, A3000, A4000 and A1 at home but hey are hardly used. I like programming and I am an open source proponent (not a FSF believer though). That's why I am an AROS programmer. Eventually I would like to make a PPC AROS versions compatible with the other PPC amiga OSes: e.g. one with an ABI for OS4.x and one for MOS.
I also would like a dev environment that would make is very easy to make Amiga programs that run on all amiga systems (OS3.x, OS4.x, MOS and of course AROS).
Am I a betrayal to the Amiga cause ?
greets,
Staf.
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Apple sales people are a bunch of toffee nosed twats (well the one's in the official Apple store in Edinburgh are anyway) plus half of the dunderheids who work there talk with a grating half Scottish half American accents, get right up my nose so they do, hope at the next students strike they pan in their windows and loot the bloody place... :madashell:
Can't speak for The Edinburgh Apple Store, but the ones in London are lovely... it;s the only technologic store you can walk into where all the products are easy to access, set up and and running... and where the staff leave me alone... no asking me if I'm ¨alright¨, if I ¨need help¨ or have I seen the latest xyz... and if/when I finally do decide to enquire or buy something they do exactly what I ask... and don't try and sell me anything more or do anything out side of my request... that's exactly the service I want, and It was because of that I was able to try out a Mac in 2005 which had all the software I wanted to test (already set up there on the bench), that allowed me to decide to get one...
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I think one of the big problems is that some people believe their idea about an amiga is the only true way of thinking about an amiga e.g. like you guys think it is the m68k hardware with coprocessors. My - probably Utopian - wish is that all people could consider people running some form of Amiga 'system' like UAE, OS3.x, OS4.x, MOS, AROS be part of the amiga community and not part of the betrayals to the Amiga cause.
I have an A2000, A1200, A3000, A4000 and A1 at home but hey are hardly used. I like programming and I am an open source proponent (not a FSF believer though). That's why I am an AROS programmer. Eventually I would like to make a PPC AROS versions compatible with the other PPC amiga OSes: e.g. one with an ABI for OS4.x and one for MOS.
I also would like a dev environment that would make is very easy to make Amiga programs that run on all amiga systems (OS3.x, OS4.x, MOS and of course AROS).
Am I a betrayal to the Amiga cause ?
greets,
Staf.
@ Fats
Who mentioned betrayal ? :confused:
The Amiga to me is a combination of both the hardware & OS, for me it's all about finding ways to make the Amiga work with whatever hardware we can get to run on it. It's also still an alternative to the world of PC's & Macs, it has a totally different feel to it in user terms than anything the Mac of PC has to offer.
If folk want to run Aros or MorphOS or even an emulator that's all find and dandy by me, the more folk that have an interest in the Amiga on whichever platform they choose to run it can only be to certain degree a good thing. At the same time though if more and more folk choose this path and the users of genuine Amiga hardware dwindle to next to nothing then the few Amiga hardware developers & retailers left will soon be no more and those ingenious (if few) new pieces of kit that they bring out will cease forever.
I just don't see the point in running a different OS on different hardware unless it's almost 100% backwards compatible with all the old Amiga software (hopefully the Natami will be the answer to this) and having the same feel as the classic Amiga Workbench environment .
At the end of the day if I wanted an easy life when it comes to computers I could simply use this Mac I'm typing on right now to do whatever I want/need but I choose not to as I prefer my trusty old Amiga's and the pleasure that they bring to me.
When you reduce the Amiga to nothing more than an OS then for me it takes away one of the biggest parts of being an Amiga user and that is the ability to tinker & problem solve with the original Amiga hardware. That's when it no longer becomes an Amiga to me, but this is just my own personal viewpoint and noone has to agree or take any notice of it. :)
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Can't speak for The Edinburgh Apple Store, but the ones in London are lovely... it;s the only technologic store you can walk into where all the products are easy to access, set up and and running... and where the staff leave me alone... no asking me if I'm ¨alright¨, if I ¨need help¨ or have I seen the latest xyz... and if/when I finally do decide to enquire or buy something they do exactly what I ask... and don't try and sell me anything more or do anything out side of my request...
Yeah, last I heard, they the ones that had to get you restrained after you ran into the place before the plate glass doors even fully opened screaming "Sell me your delicious apple pie! I need it all!" :lol:
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Yeah, last I heard, they the ones that had to get you restrained after you ran into the place before the plate glass doors even fully opened screaming "Sell me your delicious apple pie! I need it all!" :lol:
Don't joke... While I was focusing on music, it seemed as though Apple had a direct line to my bank account... well actually they did/do... but the sums of money that have gone their way would be enough to keep Jobsie in new livers until 2020...
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Can't speak for The Edinburgh Apple Store, but the ones in London are lovely... it;s the only technologic store you can walk into where all the products are easy to access, set up and and running... and where the staff leave me alone... no asking me if I'm ¨alright¨, if I ¨need help¨ or have I seen the latest xyz... and if/when I finally do decide to enquire or buy something they do exactly what I ask... and don't try and sell me anything more or do anything out side of my request... that's exactly the service I want, and It was because of that I was able to try out a Mac in 2005 which had all the software I wanted to test (already set up there on the bench), that allowed me to decide to get one...
@ bloodline
When I got my first G4 during the summer, I popped into that ruddy shop in Edinburgh to ask what I needed to buy for it to get it up and running properly. I was greeted by a fat little smurfette of a female who droned on in this gawd awful half Scottish Half American accent who basically told me (with a look of on her face that she'd just stood in a pile of dog crap) I had bought a white elephant and there was nothing I could do to upgrade it from OSX 10.2, she then waddled off and that was that.
Oddly enough though as I was standing there with my sister and trying to put away in my suit pocket the list of questions I had to ask, I asked my sister if she could hold on to some of the cash I had in my pockets till I organised them a bit. I handed my sister 6 grand in cash and was just starting to organise my pockets when little chubby checker suddenly appeared again all smiles and directed me to a seat where now all of a sudden she could offer me a consultancy for £25 per half hour and she could probably sort out my problems for me.
Suffice to say as I stuffed my cash back in my pockets I told tubby thanks but no thanks and I would take my business elsewhere, talk about having a face like an auld grannie sucking on her wallies, hers was a picture... :)
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@Franko
You should have complained... Apple do take stuff like that pretty seriously....
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I agree with Fats. The apple crowd have no probs in calling an iPhone, iPad or any other mac related things for just MAC. Minimig, Natami, AROS, MORPH, AOS4, Classics and all related things is Amiga for me. So looking at all the activity in all the different projects, Amiga's future look bright from my POV anyway.
Then the iPad was released, I read an article interpreting holy Jobs creation like: Technology have ceased to be this firework of features, but have become mundane, a thing you use. If this is true its good news for Amiga, since the catching up will be easier.
Of course Amiga have a future. :)
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I agree with Fats. The apple crowd have no probs in calling an iPhone, iPad or any other mac related things for just MAC. Minimig, Natami, AROS, MORPH, AOS4, Classics and all related things is Amiga for me. So looking at all the activity in all the different projects, Amiga's future look bright from my POV anyway.
Then the iPad was released, I read an article interpreting holy Jobs creation like: Technology have ceased to be this firework of features, but have become mundane, a thing you use. If this is true its good news for Amiga, since the catching up will be easier.
Of course Amiga have a future. :)
Yep, I'm using a Mac now, but like Franko its a model Apple affectionados would snear at. So what! It runs a much better OS than Apple sells.
And the iPad? Everytime I see one of those things I can't help but think of novelty gigantic TV remotes. GHey everybody I just bought a really big iPod!
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@ Franko
I support AmigaOS and AROS and thank God that AI has finally been banished from anything Amiga
saying that I respect MOS as they started the project when it looked like AmigaOS was dead so the spirit of Amiga lives on in MOS as well....
the way I see it is AOS, AROS, and MOS are still ALIVE because of the spirit of the Amiga and we the users worldwide SOOOO if you get the Amiga spirit while using it THEN IMHO it's an Amiga..PERIOD & PEACE OUT:afro:
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@Iggy
I hope to acquire the HW to run Morph. I have always been curious of it. Since I vent PC around 97, I already had the HW for Aros, so it was natural to go that route for me. But I'm looking forward to try out Morph.
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And AROS, AOS4, and MorphOS all are backward compatible with 3.1. Porting software across all three platforms is fairly easy.
Porting across all Amiga platforms is possible. I've seen packages that run on all them.
It's doable, and not technically all that challenging for most software, but it's too much work, that's my main issue with it. It needs a major lift to make it less effort so that more people will release their software across all the platforms.
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I think they should cut the BS and just accept their fate as a great classic computer, instead of trying to revive everything with a bunch of stupid gimmick hardware.
They succeeded at a time when there wasn't a definite OS in power, but now, Windows, OSX, and Linux have taken over pretty severely. Why bother anymore. Just play Amiga games and move on....
If you're happy just doing everyday computing on an Amiga, do it. Don't wait around for the M$ Killer hardware and software to show up. You're wasting your time.
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I think they should cut the BS and just accept their fate as a great classic computer, instead of trying to revive everything with a bunch of stupid gimmick hardware.
They succeeded at a time when there wasn't a definite OS in power, but now, Windows, OSX, and Linux have taken over pretty severely. Why bother anymore. Just play Amiga games and move on....
If you're happy just doing everyday computing on an Amiga, do it. Don't wait around for the M$ Killer hardware and software to show up. You're wasting your time.
@ Arkhan
Who They ???
Nice to see you back, I was beginning to think that they had caught up with you and sent you to the chair... or worse sent you to Amigaworld.net... ;)
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They succeeded at a time when there wasn't a definite OS in power, but now, Windows, OSX, and Linux have taken over pretty severely. Why bother anymore. Just play Amiga games and move on....
If you're happy just doing everyday computing on an Amiga, do it. Don't wait around for the M$ Killer hardware and software to show up. You're wasting your time.
I kind of half-agree and half-don't. It's silly to run around thinking that projects like NatAmi or X1000 will prove to be some kind of "Windows slayer" that will make the masses see the light; they'd have to do way more than they even aim to in order to cause average PC users to jump ship, and they'd most likely get far too expensive in the process (or more far too expensive, in X1000's case :/) Amiga die-hards have been able to make the existing hardware work for them for a long time now, and it's long since reached the saturation point of being behind the curve.
On the other hand, I think there is a place for an upgraded Amiga platform for the enthusiasts. Something like NatAmi isn't going to seriously challenge the Wintel hegemony, but it can make life easier for anybody trying to do day-to-day computing on the Amiga (particularily web browsing or other CPU-intensive tasks.) Saying "don't bother improving the hardware, just use it for games" is rather depressing. I'm not going to suggest that if people just have enough faith the entire landscape of modern computing is going to change in the Amiga's favor, but there's a big difference between staying grounded and giving up altogether on any improvement ever.
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I kind of half-agree and half-don't. It's silly to run around thinking that projects like NatAmi or X1000 will prove to be some kind of "Windows slayer" that will make the masses see the light; they'd have to do way more than they even aim to in order to cause average PC users to jump ship, and they'd most likely get far too expensive in the process (or more far too expensive, in X1000's case :/) Amiga die-hards have been able to make the existing hardware work for them for a long time now, and it's long since reached the saturation point of being behind the curve.
At least the Natami people are pretty up front that they don't expect Natami to be a mainstream computer or PS3 killer or anything.
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@ commodorejohn
I would never have thought seriously that either the developers of the Natami or your typical Amiga user would have thought for one moment that the Natami was going to be some sort of "Windows slayer". Kinda weird way of thinking and looking at it in my opinion.
I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of PC users have never even heard the word Natami let alone what it actually is. In fact most PC users I know only have the silly things to browse the net, do a bit of shopping and pay some bills. I can honestly say that I don't personally know of one PC user who actually uses their machine to do anything creative. So for your average PC user the Natami will most likely pass them by unnoticed... :)
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I kind of half-agree and half-don't. It's silly to run around thinking that projects like NatAmi or X1000 will prove to be some kind of "Windows slayer" that will make the masses see the light;
I just want one of them to get to the stage where I can spend a reasonable chunk of my time using them for the things I like to do (programming in particular)...
Apart from that, it'd be great if we could get to a stage where the new solutions help us get *some* growth again. Getting to even, say, 50k active enthusiast users, would mean a massive difference in terms of having a vibrant community and getting more hardware or new software development / ports.
Compared to ca 5m Amiga's sold or 250m-300m PC's sold *this year alone*, getting a niche platform with the history and recognition of the Amiga to 50k users ought to still be possible, though undoubtably hard.
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I just want one of them to get to the stage where I can spend a reasonable chunk of my time using them for the things I like to do (programming in particular)...
Apart from that, it'd be great if we could get to a stage where the new solutions help us get *some* growth again. Getting to even, say, 50k active enthusiast users, would mean a massive difference in terms of having a vibrant community and getting more hardware or new software development / ports.
Compared to ca 5m Amiga's sold or 250m-300m PC's sold *this year alone*, getting a niche platform with the history and recognition of the Amiga to 50k users ought to still be possible, though undoubtably hard.
I'm now of the firm belief that MikeJ's Replay board with AROS 68k is the future of the Amiga.
Everything else is now an "also ran".
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The Natami looks like a neat system as does the minimig w/ AGA, but these aren't realistic systems for everyday use.
I'm not so sure that Natami couldn't be a decent machine for everyday use. What essentials would it be missing if all goes as planned?
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Amiga, especially ng amiga will always be a small niche. Sometimes thats cool though, because I kind of like it when even linux nerds come to my house and marvel at my aros machine...
I think OS4's chances of doing anything keep getting smaller and smaller.
I'm hoping to get a morphos mac from santa claus, we'll see. In the meantime I get more and more excited by aros...
1) UAE integration 2) Catweasel support 3) Draggable screens...
4) Supports my 3.0GHZ intel processor pc - ITS VERY FAST.
To me, Aros is just the logical way to go because it supports amiga floppies, all old games and amiga apps (for the most part) run...
MorphOS from what I have seen is more advanced. You can browse better, watch youtube. I'm hopeful AROS browser will catch up fast.
AOS4 is a dead end to me, I'm not paying 800$ for a computer with speeds from 10 years ago, no matter how much I like the os, or the name amiga. What is an amiga? To me its a computer that works like the old amiga, but allows for modern things, thats it. I don't care much for the name arguments, so long as it works how I remember and runs everything, I'm happy. AROS is probably the best path forward in my view, because it can't be killed by a few people controlling it....
Steven
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I'm now of the firm belief that MikeJ's Replay board with AROS 68k is the future of the Amiga.
Everything else is now an "also ran".
Yeah, I'd have to agree with that.
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Yeah, I'd have to agree with that.
Nah... your both completely wrong... so I have to disagree with that... :)
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Nah... your both completely wrong... so I have to disagree with that... :)
Well, then you would be wrong... it really is that simple... ;)
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Well, then you would be wrong... it really is that simple... ;)
Yeah but on the other hand I could be right as well as simple... :p
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Yeah but on the other hand I could be right as well as simple... :p
I'm not going to dignify that with this response...
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I'm not going to dignify that with this response...
Couldn't hear you anyway I had me fingers in me ears...
(dignity... I lost that years ago... :lol:)
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Well, then you would be wrong... it really is that simple... ;)
No "could be" about it. :)
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No "could be" about it. :)
Ok, I'll settle for 'maybe' but I doubt it... :)
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I'm not looking for a future, I just like playing with the old hardware.
The modern Amiga operating systems (OS4.1, MorphOS, AROS) cannot take the place of Linux/Windows/occasional OSX for me, so while I'm happy to play with them every once in a while and see what new progress they've made, I don't expect I'll ever use any of them seriously.
I have even less interest in new hardware that emulates old hardware.
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I'm now of the firm belief that MikeJ's Replay board with AROS 68k is the future of the Amiga.
Everything else is now an "also ran".
Depends on what you're looking for, I guess. As a toy or "classic replacement" it looks great. It'll be too slow for much serious use for anyone used to more modern machines though.
Natami has a better shot there, possibly, since they're more geared for performance, but that too will likely be too slow for most people.
As I've said elsewhere, I want both of them and the X1000, but I suspect main machine will remain an x86 box, though hopefully eventually running AROS most of the time.
Then again, it doesn't really matter if it works for you.
(I'm considering picking up an A1200 too, to actually have a real classic again, and get one of the new ACA accelerators for it, but I suspect sneaking the Replay and X1000 past the wife will be hard enough)
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Then again, it doesn't really matter if it works for you.
(I'm considering picking up an A1200 too, to actually have a real classic again, and get one of the new ACA accelerators for it, but I suspect sneaking the Replay and X1000 past the wife will be hard enough)
That is probably the most sensible thing I've ever read here...:)
(PS:Get a divorce it's well worth the money and you don't have to go sneaking things in the house anymore, it worked for me... :lol:)
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I have even less interest in new hardware that emulates old hardware.
You mean FPGA? What if it really were an actual next generation 68K chip instead?
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You mean FPGA? What if it really were an actual next generation 68K chip instead?
C-One, Minimig, Natami, C64DTV, all that stuff, not for me.
If it's not an actual oldschool 68k Amiga, I'll use UAE.
I don't see the point of a new 68k based system.
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To me the future of Amiga is a fpga with One minimig-aga(or preferably Natami-SAGA if i can get my hands on it) core, 3x M68k cores (at least) and one Java processor core (ain't expecting anyone to port java to Amiga-M68k any time soon) running Aros-M68k. Just to prove (or not) my age old belief that the Amiga system design is inherently a MP design.:insane:
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C-One, Minimig, Natami, C64DTV, all that stuff, not for me.
If it's not an actual oldschool 68k Amiga, I'll use UAE.
I don't see the point of a new 68k based system.
Some would say that the point is to jump in where Commodore left off and offer further improvements and seamless backward compatibility. I'm not necessarily saying that PPC was a mistake or that x86 is not a possible future for Amiga. Rather, I'm interested in seeing how far the 68K can go. It's all Amiga as far as I'm concerned, but I'm personally most interested in 68K (at this time, anyway).
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Some would say that the point is to jump in where Commodore left off and offer further improvements and seamless backward compatibility. I'm not necessarily saying that PPC was a mistake or that x86 is not a possible future for Amiga. Rather, I'm interested in seeing how far the 68K can go. It's all Amiga as far as I'm concerned, but I'm personally most interested in 68K (at this time, anyway).
Ditto.
68k makes me excited again for the first time in years!
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@Franko
I stand on the side of choice. We have many options available (Classic Amiga, many fine Amiga emulation products, MorphOS, OS4 and AROS). I think that the future is full of possibilities if we will let them happen.
IMHO, the OS4 vs MorphOS ("red vs blue") struggle was a sad part of our history. Now the fight for the "true Amiga" has grown to include AROS and Classic and any kind of emulation and PPC vs X86 vs XYZ.
I would like to see an end to the silly trolling and hostilities. Surely there is enough room for all of us. I'm not saying that we have to agree or use the same system, but at least we should be able to tolerate each other.
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redfox
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@Franko
I stand on the side of choice. We have many options available (Classic Amiga, many fine Amiga emulation products, MorphOS, OS4 and AROS). I think that the future is full of possibilities if we will let them happen.
IMHO, the OS4 vs MorphOS ("red vs blue") struggle was a sad part of our history. Sadly, now the fight for the "true Amiga" has grown to include Classic and AROS and any kind of emulation and PPC vs X86 vs XYZ.
I would like to see an end to the silly trolling and hostilities. Surely there is enough room for all of us. I'm not saying that we have to agree or use the same system, but at least we should be able to tolerate each other.
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redfox
Very well said. I've been expressing this sentiment for awhile myself. I think having all these options is a positive thing.
And unlike the majority of people voting on the latest poll, I think the Amiga is far from dead.
We're seeing more development now than we have in a long time.
Hopefully with the new FPGA projects and AROS 68K we'll soon see continued development of the original platform on an open basis.
PPC implementations continue to be enhanced and AROS X86 will provide yet another alternative (at a nice low price).
From my point of view, things are going pretty good.
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Yeah, the Amiga flavours will survive through most of our lifetimes and that's really all that matters. Indeed there'll always be people playing with retro and re-imagined retro. Look at amateur radio, in the age of mobile phones in everyone's pocket, amateur radio is growing in popularity.
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I just think developing new hardware when the old stuff is still present and working is kind of pointless, especially if all you want to do is fire up games from 1987
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@Franko
I stand on the side of choice. We have many options available (Classic Amiga, many fine Amiga emulation products, MorphOS, OS4 and AROS). I think that the future is full of possibilities if we will let them happen.
IMHO, the OS4 vs MorphOS ("red vs blue") struggle was a sad part of our history. Now the fight for the "true Amiga" has grown to include AROS and Classic and any kind of emulation and PPC vs X86 vs XYZ.
I would like to see an end to the silly trolling and hostilities. Surely there is enough room for all of us. I'm not saying that we have to agree or use the same system, but at least we should be able to tolerate each other.
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redfox
@ redfox
Ahh, there's that silly word again "trolling". A pointless word made up by internet geeks and used by those who haven't the maturity or brain power to cope with an exchange of opinions or who don't like what others have to say.
Kinda strange that you claim to "stand on the side of choice" but at the same time you express the view that you would like to see the end of "trolling and hostilities" which in my opinion are actually just different types of people simply expressing their choices and views. I would like to see the use of the word "trolling" as it's nothing more than a lame excuse used by certain people for the reasons I've explained above.
Of course there is room for all of us and no we don't have to agree with each other (it'd be a pretty damn boring world if we all agreed and did the same thing), yes we should tolerate each other but showing tolerance is not done by claiming you stand on the side of choice and then going on to say you would like to see the end of what other folk have to say or what their choices are. That my friend is not tolerance in any shape or form. :)
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I've been reading through a lot of the old threads here from the early noughties and not even having bothered with the internet until this year I was left feeling a bit dismayed and sad about what seems to have been a huge split and infighting in the Amiga community a number of years ago, mostly with the introduction of OS4 but also MorphOS & Aros Vs so called Classic OS.
I too missed out on all the infighting as it was just me and a couple of mates using our Amigas with no Internet back then. We used to enjoy visiting each other and creating our own floppies with pix, a letter and games on and posting them to each other :)
It would be great to send ADF files to each to other by E-mail now and unpack them at the other end using ADF-Blitzer. But sadly my Amiga buddy Andy died of CJD (the human form of mad cow disease) and Peter was so upset by Andy's death, he gave up the Amiga :(
My own Amiga future is to just look after my Amigas and come to this great site. That's about as far ahead as I think. Getting a Cyberstorm PPC for an A4000, running WarpOS and then OS4 was what had been hoping for for years and I've done that now along with many other things like playing original arcade classics with MAME and emulating a Sega Megadrive with AmiGenerator. I'm very happy with how my Amiga world is and just hope everyone else gets along and enjoys their Amigas too :)
:drink:
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@
Ahh, there's that silly word again "trolling". A pointless word made up by internet geeks and used by those who haven't the maturity or brain power to cope with an exchange of opinions or who don't like what others have to say.
Exchange of opinions, eh? So how do you call someone who stops his car in the middle of the M8, gets out, does something obscene, and then gets back into the car, complaining about the noise of all the car-horns?
Yes, some people write what would be the equivalent comment. But maybe this is considered polite in livingston? ;-)
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Exchange of opinions, eh? So how do you call someone who stops his car in the middle of the M8, gets out, does something obscene, and then gets back into the car, complaining about the noise of all the car-horns?
Yes, some people write what would be the equivalent comment. But maybe this is considered polite in livingston? ;-)
Well as I've not noticed such an event happening here on this site or experienced it in real life, I can't say what I'd call him...
And yes in Livingston this would be considered as nothing more than someone expressing their views... :)
But then some of us are more tolerant than others... :)
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@ redfox
Ahh, there's that silly word again "trolling". A pointless word made up by internet geeks and used by those who haven't the maturity or brain power to cope with an exchange of opinions or who don't like what others have to say.
There is a clear difference between exchange of opinion and 'trolling'. Some people seem to have the idea that they can throw away all forms of politeness when discussing on an Internet forum. They even make it personal by using words like fanboy, nazi, smoking crack, ...
greets,
Staf.
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There is a clear difference between exchange of opinion and 'trolling'. Some people seem to have the idea that they can throw away all forms of politeness when discussing on an Internet forum. They even make it personal by using words like fanboy, nazi, smoking crack, ...
greets,
Staf.
While I don't myself use the terms you have mentioned It doesn't bother me when someone does, after all it's not like the person actually knows you personally or that it even matters what someone tapping away on a keyboard elsewhere in the world has to say about you, when they have no idea what your really like as a person.
It's nothing more than a passtime, if you choose to get involved in online conversations then you should take into account that everyone is different and what may offend one person may not offend another.
We all have the freedom of choice to ignore what someone else has to say or to take part and express our own individual view but at the end of day does it really matter what someone you probably don't know or will most likely never meet in real life has to say... :)
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While I don't myself use the terms you have mentioned It doesn't bother me when someone does, after all it's not like the person actually knows you personally or that it even matters what someone tapping away on a keyboard elsewhere in the world has to say about you, when they have no idea what your really like as a person.
It's nothing more than a passtime, if you choose to get involved in online conversations then you should take into account that everyone is different and what may offend one person may not offend another.
We all have the freedom of choice to ignore what someone else has to say or to take part and express our own individual view but at the end of day does it really matter what someone you probably don't know or will most likely never meet in real life has to say... :)
I apologize in advance for the insensitive nature of this quote but it is most fitting:
"Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics... Even if you win, you're still retarded."
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I apologize in advance for the insensitive nature of this quote but it is most fitting:
"Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics... Even if you win, you're still retarded."
Erm... not everyone in the Special Olympics is retarded, most only actually have physical disabilities...
So that statement while it might offend some, could easily fit into the retarded class... :)
But why does debating something when it comes to the Amiga have to be classed as arguing, that what I call retarded thinking... :)
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Hi,
Please don't insult the Amiga by running it on a MAC.
smerf
agree 100% with this comment as my dislike for anything Apple goes back to the very first Apple I release....over priced and hyped/marketed to the tilt!...I give them credit for marketing to the the pre-teens and making shiny white cases though:rolleyes:
AmigaOS running on 2'nd hand Apple hardware would have indeed been an insult.
funny it seems anything negative against almight Apple gets vigoroulsy debated or mysteriously deleted after a while on this site:confused:..seems someone here perhaps has something to gain by promoting Apple on an Amiga site:cool:
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How is the purchase of second hand Apple hardware to run an OS that is nothing to do with Apple promoting Apple?
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I just think developing new hardware when the old stuff is still present and working is kind of pointless, especially if all you want to do is fire up games from 1987
But most of the new hardware under development, such as Natami, will offer many improvements over older hardware. If you simply want to play some Amiga games from floppy, then by all means grab a cheap A500 off eBay.
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agree 100% with this comment as my dislike for anything Apple goes back to the very first Apple I release....over priced and hyped/marketed to the tilt!...I give them credit for marketing to the the pre-teens and making shiny white cases though:rolleyes:
AmigaOS running on 2'nd hand Apple hardware would have indeed been an insult.
funny it seems anything negative against almight Apple gets vigoroulsy debated or mysteriously deleted after a while on this site:confused:..seems someone here perhaps has something to gain by promoting Apple on an Amiga site:cool:
What a strange attitude you and smerf have. I would much rather run AmigaOS on a G5 than a SAM440 any day.
Why would you not want to run AmigaOS on faster hardware?
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SAM440: Not an Amiga, slow, expensive.
MacMini: Not an Amiga, faster than SAM440, cheap.
I know which hardware I'd go for.
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What a strange attitude you and smerf have. I would much rather run AmigaOS on a G5 than a SAM440 any day.
Why would you not want to run AmigaOS on faster hardware?
I am baffled by this seconded opinion myself. If I thought using 2nd hand hardware that Apple has abandoned support of was somehow supporting Apple I might be able to understand this idea.
But all I want is faster, more affordable PPC hardware and this stuff has surprised me as to how good it runs (if you don't rely on Apple for the OS).
Believe me, I suffered at a company that had purchased Apple IIIs and I'm seriously worried about the hubris common in the Apple community. Often seriously flawed products are introduced, touted and supported by Apple and its user base until they relize how bad an item is.
Besides the afore to mentioned Apple III, I remember the Newton. No wonder Apple was hesitant to produce a new tablet.
And, I still don't understand what market they think is going to embrace Apple TV.
But I am happy with the cast off G4 and G5 products. They make continuing to support PPC OS development affordable (and fast).
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How is the purchase of second hand Apple hardware to run an OS that is nothing to do with Apple promoting Apple?
I don't care for anything Apple related and that includes old/used Apple products..I don't want to see anything with a half eaten Apple next to any of my miggies or in my house !
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I don't care for anything Apple related and that includes old/used Apple products..I don't want to see anything with a half eaten Apple next to any of my miggies or in my house !
Fine, whatever suits you. Meanwhile I'll continue to play with my 2 x Mac Mini G4 1.5GHz and Power Mac dual-G5 2.5GHz I got for the price of your Sam flex 800 ;)
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Franko,
You are truly lucky you missed the infighting back when. I damn near sold all of my Amiga stuff back then. That was when I turned to Windows, learned it (more or less), and got used to using it.
At this point in time, I am really glad I didn't sell my Amiga hardware & software. I still use several Amiga graphics programs and a couple of Windows programs to get my graphics work done. I like the Amiga 3.1/3.5 /3.9 OS better than anything else I have ever used
The only real problem I have now, with any of the newer options that are more or less Amiga - is software compatibility. Most of the "emulators" are a royal pain to get software into unless you are lucky enough to have it on CD/DVD. And I don't mean games - I mean serious software. Some other options run very little, if any Amiga software.
I am looking forward to some of the "new" Amiga options - even the X1000 (If the price can dropped a bit).
I doubt I will ever get rid of my old, "classic" Amiga hardware though - as slow as it may be.
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SAM440: Not an Amiga, slow, expensive.
MacMini: Not an Amiga, faster than SAM440, cheap.
I know which hardware I'd go for.
Not a hard decision at all, is it? I can't believe the SAM440 sell for what they do. I may end up with a Mac mini just after the new year. See where that leads...
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@ motrucker
I reckon if you'd sold all your Amiga hardware you would be deeply regretting it by now. Like you I prefer the old OS 3.x the best, but I have developed an interest now in AROS & MorphOS but I can safely say they will never make me get rid of my Amiga's and they will definitely never become my main computer of choice when I finally get round to trying them out.
Even the X1000 or the Natami (unless the Natami lives up to it's hype) will never be able to replace my real Amiga's as to me they are simply the best computers ever produced for my needs. :)
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Fine, whatever suits you. Meanwhile I'll continue to play with my 2 x Mac Mini G4 1.5GHz and Power Mac dual-G5 2.5GHz I got for the price of your Sam flex 800 ;)
all the power to you Piru:) I'm having a blast with my retro machines and my Samflex running OS4.1 too and neither of them have to run at 5 GHz for me to have fun;)
btw, my aversion to Apple products really has nothing to do with MOS as i respect all the work done by any parties world wide to keep the Amiga spirit alive !!!
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I'm having a blast with my retro machines and my Samflex running OS4.1 too and neither of them have to run at 5 GHz for me to have fun;)
5 Ghz is a bit of problem yeah, requiers dry ice or nitrogen, but 4Ghz is easy, my pc is doing that on air cooling.
But I'm also having a blast with them, though I think Natami would be better with a full 060 FPGA.
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all the power to you Piru:) I'm having a blast with my retro machines and my Samflex running OS4.1 too and neither of them have to run at 5 GHz for me to have fun;)
btw, my aversion to Apple products really has nothing to do with MOS as i respect all the work done by any parties world wide to keep the Amiga spirit alive !!!
The thing about the SAM under OS4 is when running DVDs or video of similar resolution your pegging your CPU at about 100%.
With the processor I've got in my Powermac (which is more than 2X more powerful) I can easily run 720p video and some 1080p videos.
And it cost me a fraction of your Sam.
5 Ghz is a bit of problem yeah, requiers dry ice or nitrogen, but 4Ghz is easy, my pc is doing that on air cooling.
But I'm also having a blast with them, though I think Natami would be better with a full 060 FPGA.
Yes, I'm barely overclocking a Phenom X3 @ 3.3 Ghz and I never experience any CPU related slow downs. But running UAE just doesn't feel the same. Ragardless of what diehard legacy hardware users think, I believe all the NG hareware/OS' feel very Amiga like.
And I think your right about the Natami. %0 Mhz and higher 68060s are still available and not emulating the CPU would leave more room for enhancing the chipset.
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I sincerely appologize for using the term "trolling" ......
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We have many options available (Classic Amiga, many fine Amiga emulation products, MorphOS, OS4 and AROS). I think that the future is full of possibilities if we will let them happen.
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redfox
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double post..
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I sincerely appologize for using the term "trolling" ......
Don't be sorry. It was correctly used.
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But most of the new hardware under development, such as Natami, will offer many improvements over older hardware. If you simply want to play some Amiga games from floppy, then by all means grab a cheap A500 off eBay.
improvements to do what?
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improvements to do what?
Anything you damn well please!
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I am baffled by this seconded opinion myself. If I thought using 2nd hand hardware that Apple has abandoned support of was somehow supporting Apple I might be able to understand this idea.
But all I want is faster, more affordable PPC hardware and this stuff has surprised me as to how good it runs (if you don't rely on Apple for the OS).
....
But I am happy with the cast off G4 and G5 products. They make continuing to support PPC OS development affordable (and fast).
I also agree that I want a faster & more affordable PPC hardware to run AmigaOS natively and that's why I invested in my Samflex440 after the lawsuit was over and we finally got new hardware....you see now ACube has taken the money from 440 sales and reinvested into the development of the Sam460ex which makes me happy:)
IMHO AmigaOS was/is worth fighting for & I'm glad to support it's future.
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The SAM460ex isn't going to be any better than a PowerMac, though.
I guess if you just want to keep the ball rolling for AOS, then it's one of very few options, but I don't think I could justify the cost personally.
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The SAM460ex isn't going to be any better than a PowerMac, though.
I guess if you just want to keep the ball rolling for AOS, then it's one of very few options, but I don't think I could justify the cost personally.
The problem is Acube's focus on relatively low power Applied Micro processors. Not only do Acube's products demand a fairly high price, but their performance per Mhz is lower than a G4 (let alone a G5). And while I really like A-eon's X1000, its really hard to justify the price when a G5 will perform comparably at a much lower cost.
I'd like to see some new MorphOS hardware, and I (and a few others) have investigated the idea. But its going to have to be more powerful than an Acube motherboard and less costly than an X1000.
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improvements to do what?
The stuff people do on computers.
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The SAM460ex isn't going to be any better than a PowerMac, though.
I guess if you just want to keep the ball rolling for AOS, then it's one of very few options, but I don't think I could justify the cost personally.
but the point I'm making is that we are moving forward and finally not going backwards when AI had us all in a strangle hold. Amiga has it's own dedicated hardware that's brand spanking new and reliable....so far the Sam440 was successful enough for ACube to make the 460ex & hopefully the X1000 will be successful enough for A-Eon to make the next 'better' PPC Amiga hardware on so on etc. etc. etc.
AROS is rocking along with no schedule to make the x86 camp happy so the future looks bright for both PPC and x86 Amigans world wide:knuddel:
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The stuff people do on computers.
yeah I don't see the point. Its clear they wont develop hardware thats going to be a 3D game power house, so modern gaming is out.
and then whats left? Dopey old stuff thats already being done on current hardware.
you can use whats out there already to do all this stuff. What improvements are really going to happen for you to "do stuff".
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yeah I don't see the point. Its clear they wont develop hardware thats going to be a 3D game power house, so modern gaming is out.
and then whats left? Dopey old stuff thats already being done on current hardware.
you can use whats out there already to do all this stuff. What improvements are really going to happen for you to "do stuff".
Run the dopey old stuff on hardware that isn't 20 years old and held together by scotch tape and bubble gum :)
Get a beefy compatible amiga, without having to cough out 600 bucks on ebay for a powerPC card that "totally worked 10 years ago, when my brother put it in his garage"
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if you say so.
what are you running though that really warrants new hardware coming out. Games dont count. What other stuff?
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if you say so.
what are you running though that really warrants new hardware coming out. Games dont count. What other stuff?
I'd love to play MP3's without my 1200 exploding from the strain, without buying shaky old accelerators for hundreds of dollars off ebay.
Here's the question though: What harm is it if the Natami or clone a sees light and people can buy it ?
I have never understood the fervent desire geeks get for technology to fail or not get made.
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but the point I'm making is that we are moving forward and finally not going backwards when AI had us all in a strangle hold. Amiga has it's own dedicated hardware that's brand spanking new and reliable....so far the Sam440 was successful enough for ACube to make the 460ex & hopefully the X1000 will be successful enough for A-Eon to make the next 'better' PPC Amiga hardware on so on etc. etc. etc.
AROS is rocking along with no schedule to make the x86 camp happy so the future looks bright for both PPC and x86 Amigans world wide:knuddel:
There is something there we can agree with. It's a shame we're not entire rid of Bill McEwen. Now he's managed dilute the definition of what an Amiga is. Frankly. I can't think of anyone who's done us more harm.
And new hardware! This is great.
I now you don't agree with those of us using Macs, but consider this, MorphOS was designed to run on PPC equipped Amigas, it was ported to one of the first NG platforms (the Pegasos), and our developers are doing what they can to keep our system alive and moving forward.
And, personally, I disagree that there is a blue vs red camp fraction. I'm glas AOS is in Hyperions hand and I wish them continued sucess.
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I'd love to play MP3's without my 1200 exploding from the strain, without buying shaky old accelerators for hundreds of dollars off ebay.
Here's the question though: What harm is it if the Natami or clone a sees light and people can buy it ?
I have never understood the fervent desire geeks get for technology to fail or not get made.
Its not that I want it to fail or whatever, I just dont see the point of these things usually.
Is that what you want the new hardware for? MP3 playback? That seems mental. Im one of those people that doesn't see the purpose in something that does something thats already being done.
Mp3 playback seems like an expensive novelty. Like buying a coin operated gumball machine for your living room
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Its not that I want it to fail or whatever, I just dont see the point of these things usually.
Is that what you want the new hardware for? MP3 playback? That seems mental. Im one of those people that doesn't see the purpose in something that does something thats already being done.
Mp3 playback seems like an expensive novelty. Like buying a coin operated gumball machine for your living room
Its the first thing that came to mind.
The point Im trying to make is.. I'd love to be able to buy something thats completely compatible with amiga stuff, has a bit more oomph to it, is an actual machine rather than just UAE, and is new.
My crappy PC running linux was 400 bucks at fry's. It does more than Morph, aros and OS4 ever will be able to do, combined.
But that's not really what it's about for me.
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There is something there we can agree with. It's a shame we're not entire rid of Bill McEwen. Now he's managed dilute the definition of what an Amiga is. Frankly. I can't think of anyone who's done us more harm.
And new hardware! This is great.
I now you don't agree with those of us using Macs, but consider this, MorphOS was designed to run on PPC equipped Amigas, it was ported to one of the first NG platforms (the Pegasos), and our developers are doing what they can to keep our system alive and moving forward.
And, personally, I disagree that there is a blue vs red camp fraction. I'm glas AOS is in Hyperions hand and I wish them continued sucess.
:)
btw, trolls fight wars, Amiga users unite !
(also just between us...back when it looked like AI was gonna hold us all in chains for another decade I came THIS close to buying a Peg to run MOS..the deal didn't go through at the last minute or I'd be a happy MOS user...so respect to MOS for keeping the dream alive when it looked bleak for us)
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The point Im trying to make is.. I'd love to be able to buy something thats completely compatible with amiga stuff, has a bit more oomph to it, is an actual machine rather than just UAE, and is new.
That just about sums up my point of view too on this subject, although I'd just like to add it would also most likely mean that we would be able to buy off the shelf peripherals (CD/DVD drives etc..) that we could also run easily on newer hardware if it ever comes to light... :)
@ redfox
You shouldn't apologise for anything, your perfectly entitled to say your point of view as was I in responding to it, but as you apologised (even though I don't think the apology was intended for me specifically) then I too apologise for being a bit harsh in my reply to your post... :)
@ the_leander
Have to disagree with you once again the silly "trolling" word was not used correctly, but then you'd know all about "trolling" wouldn't you... :rolleyes:
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Its the first thing that came to mind.
The point Im trying to make is.. I'd love to be able to buy something thats completely compatible with amiga stuff, has a bit more oomph to it, is an actual machine rather than just UAE, and is new.
My crappy PC running linux was 400 bucks at fry's. It does more than Morph, aros and OS4 ever will be able to do, combined.
But that's not really what it's about for me.
You almost sound defensive about your position. I can understand the Linux/X86 arguement (why not I own PCs).
But your Linux box (unless you're running AROS) doesn't allow you to develop new code using tools and system calls similar to those we used to use on the Amiga.
And I have copies of Linux, Windows and UAE. MorphOS feels closer to a real Amiga than those solutions. And why not, it was intended to move the original legacy hardware forward.
BTW - Did you know the endianess of X86 processors is different than the 68K and PPCs (and ARM for that matter)? X86s do not run legacy code as well as they could because of this. Its a good thing that X86s are fast because they lose about 50% of their efficiency running this emulation.
You want a better solution for your Linux box? Consider native X86 AROS. As its UAE integration improves and native apps become more common, this systems going to become more and more authentic in action and better in performance (than many other NG OS').
And really authentic (and probably still a bit slow)? The FPGA projects (Replay, Natami, Minimig) are probably the way to go.
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doing new software development is about the only real purpose I see to this.
What software exclusive to the Amiga are people really wanting to run on newer, more reliable hardware? Im actually curious. Because if its just to run internet crap, play mp3s, and fight the M$POWER, I don't see the point still.
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What software exclusive to the Amiga are people really wanting to run on newer, more reliable hardware? Im actually curious. Because if its just to run internet crap, play mp3s, and fight the M$POWER, I don't see the point still.
I dunno, for me web browsing/etc. isn't so much about fighting the power (because yeah, that would be pretty pointless) as it is about it being cool to pull those kinds of things off on an old machine (or even an upgraded reproduction.) It's the same reason I'm working on getting my 286 box set up with an Ethernet adapter and mTCP, just to have done it.
As for Amiga-exclusive software, I think it'd be fun to have a reasonably-inexpensive higher-power Amiga solution (like NatAmi seems to be aiming for) so that we could write slightly higher-power Amiga games (something on the level of Descent, for instance) and casual retro hobbyists could have something to run it on without having to track down an AGA Amiga, 30MHz+ 030-040 accelerator, SCSI controller and hard disk, and RAM expansion just to run it. As it stands right now, some of us just couldn't afford all that even if we wanted it.
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so for some people its a "just because" sort of thing.
lol, whatever floats your boat.
I got tired of having that shit set up just to play games. The ooo-ahhh factor wore off kind of fast.
The only old computer I have set up is an MSX Turbo R, and if I didn't program stuff for it, id box it up and get it out of my way.
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doing new software development is about the only real purpose I see to this.
What software exclusive to the Amiga are people really wanting to run on newer, more reliable hardware? Im actually curious. Because if its just to run internet crap, play mp3s, and fight the M$POWER, I don't see the point still.
A good question. Might be a the basis for a new thread. What software would you like to see and how can new Amiga hardware set itself apart?
Btw - Arkhan, you still use and develop code for MSX? The MSX TurboR iis still a pretty neat system. Never caught on in the US, but nice specs.
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doing new software development is about the only real purpose I see to this.
What software exclusive to the Amiga are people really wanting to run on newer, more reliable hardware? Im actually curious. Because if its just to run internet crap, play mp3s, and fight the M$POWER, I don't see the point still.
For me the Amiga & games hold very little interest, I use it mainly for creating/editing GFX, creating/editing Audio & CDs , DTP, writing letters, burning CD/DVDs that kind of stuff...
So some new hardware that can run all the old utils that I enjoy a bit faster than my 060/PPC would be a great thing... :)
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A good question. Might be a the basis for a new thread. What software would you like to see and how can new Amiga hardware set itself apart?
I think if theres enough people wanting the new hardware for exclusive purposes, its a pretty solid idea...
I cant say I'd agree with new hardware just to have another daily computerbox9000
Btw - Arkhan, you still use and develop code for MSX? The MSX TurboR iis still a pretty neat system. Never caught on in the US, but nice specs.
Yeah, I do some game programming and music stuff on the MSX. I have a few MSX2+'s, and the Turbo R.
I wish it had caught on in the US. It is a damn fine 8-bit machine.
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I think if theres enough people wanting the new hardware for exclusive purposes, its a pretty solid idea...
I cant say I'd agree with new hardware just to have another daily computerbox9000
Yeah, I do some game programming and music stuff on the MSX. I have a few MSX2+'s, and the Turbo R.
I wish it had caught on in the US. It is a damn fine 8-bit machine.
I'd agree with that last sentiment. The TI VDG used in the first machines was pretty advanced for its time and the specs on later machines continued to improve. Its hard to believe people wetre willing to put up with crap like the AppleII when this system was available.
Microsoft should have pushed this in the US. They could have given all the other 8-bit systems a run for their money.
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A good question. Might be a the basis for a new thread. What software would you like to see and how can new Amiga hardware set itself apart?
Well there was a poll recently about what software folk would like to see for the Amiga and a new Browser came out on top, so that ones been answered.
And this thread basically has folk expressing their views on which kind of hardware should be the future for the Amiga, so that seems to be covered as well... :)
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Well there was a poll recently about what software folk would like to see for the Amiga and a new Browser came out on top, so that ones been answered.
And this thread basically has folk expressing their views on which kind of hardware should be the future for the Amiga, so that seems to be covered as well... :)
Great Franko,
So we need FPGA hardware emulating an enhanced Amiga to run an enhanced web browser like Firefox/Timberwolf?
That does it, I'm disregarding the opinions of other Amigans.
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Great Franko,
So we need FPGA hardware emulating an enhanced Amiga to run an enhanced web browser like Firefox/Timberwolf?
That does it, I'm disregarding the opinions of other Amigans.
If I could work out what your trying to say their, then I could give you an answer... :confused:
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I'd agree with that last sentiment. The TI VDG used in the first machines was pretty advanced for its time and the specs on later machines continued to improve. Its hard to believe people wetre willing to put up with crap like the AppleII when this system was available.
Microsoft should have pushed this in the US. They could have given all the other 8-bit systems a run for their money.
no foolin. Maybe if it had, a US home computer would have had good ports of the Japanese shooters from Konami.
The MSX2's VDP is pretty amazing. The system had some great RPGs that could have used a english version...
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You almost sound defensive about your position. I can understand the Linux/X86 arguement (why not I own PCs).
Not so much defensive but the joy of using an amiga to me is using an amiga.
So a new system that feels that way (Natami) would have an interest to me.
Im less interested in the OS in and of itself than the hardware. Not to piss on the hard work that's been put into it. I just dont feel the "gush" I do when I power on my 1200.
But that baby won't last forever.
I am watching AROS closely though, as well as the various FPGA projects.