Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: Coder on December 07, 2003, 09:16:23 PM
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Hi,
Yup M$ is at it again. From now on companies that make camera's have to pay M$ 25 dollar cents for each sold camera. The payment is for the FAT filesystem. Also the creators of memory cards have to pay. And you have some others products that use it and will be next up.
Coder
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Lame... (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0312/03120403microsoftisfat.asp)
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Yup M$ is at it again. From now on companies that make camera's have to pay M$ 25 dollar cents for each sold camera. The payment is for the FAT filesystem. Also the creators of memory cards have to pay. And you have some others products that use it and will be next up.
I thought it was hilarious, the article I read about it, where a supplier (who would be affected by the change) was saying it was a really good idea. I wonder if MS waived the charge for him in exchange for his public comment.
It reminds me of a story I heard about the old days of IBM and mainframes, where they used to charge depending on how many CPU cycles were used by the customer. Damn that would be expensive on Windows :-)
Another funny thing is that on the subject of the memory sticks - Sony have never shown any problem with ignoring a set standard if it isn't to their advantage. They'll just create their own and carry on. Who sells the most memory sticks? Hmm, gee, let me think. Sony's behaviour is obviously semi good and bad, but hey, if it screws MS I'm a fan. :-)
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that_punk_guy wrote:
Lame... (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0312/03120403microsoftisfat.asp)
What will happen to FreeDOS (MS DOS compatible)?
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MS-DOS compatible but with an incompatible filesystem? :roll:
Yes, think about it, there are wider-reaching implications in this. Think operating system support.
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mikeymike wrote:
MS-DOS compatible but with an incompatible filesystem? :roll:
Yes, think about it, there are wider-reaching implications in this. Think operating system support.
Um... Can't we cleanroom a compatible Fat12 FS?
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Microsoft rarely does anything without a good reason. I can think of two possibilities, there's probably more:
1) The slip in the launch date for Longhorn is causing the Windows group trouble meeting internal profit quotas - this will easily solve that.
2) Yet another dig at Linux - distros probably won't be able to have the "fat" filesystem driver any more, this will cripple interop between Linux and Windows and make it harder for people to switch. It's quite machiavellian actually - distros that pay Microsoft the driver license fee will be condemned for being in bed with them, distros that don't will only be able to r/w Linux formatted disks.
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For those who are unaware the FAT file system was developed by Microsoft back in 1976
Forgive my ignorance but don't patents only last for 20 years ? maybe I am confusing them with something else.
Anyone with more insight?
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It's really sick! Why people just don't want to use free software (GNU) and get away from M$ policies?? I mean, everthing is going to be "Designed for WinShit XXX". Do you know how much I had to search a driver for my canon S400 printer (now it's everywhere, but then..), it came with 2 cd's for windblows, and nothing for linux..
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Um... Can't we cleanroom a compatible Fat12 FS?
In an open source project it's going to be pretty hard to prove "cleanroom", if MS decides to sue someone. Besides, one of the articles said that CF manufacturers have to pay a fee for each preformatted card, that means that it's the raw format that is being licensed, not the filesystem's algorithms.
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MS-DOS compatible but with an incompatible filesystem?
What will happen to Atari ST’s file system (I recall it was a modified version of FAT)?
Currently, FreeDOS uses FAT.
Yes, think about it, there are wider-reaching implications in this. Think operating system support.
Perhaps similar to GIF style licensing?
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mikeymike wrote:
Yes, think about it, there are wider-reaching implications in this. Think operating system support.
It's very worrying. Let's just hope some new "standard" replaces FAT. It always confused me that FAT was used for EEPROM media anyway. Unfortunately rather than change things most manufacturers are probably willing to take it up the... well, y'know.
But can MS really stop people using FAT on Amigas and Linux PCs any more than they can stop people using the MS Word document format? I thought there was a loophole in copyright law allowing reverse engineering for interoperability...
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Man thats just sad M$! After all these years and not that FAT is basicly the floppy disk standard you are going to start chatging people for it?? I tell you something needs to be done with M$ they are taking over the damn world with the $hit products they make!
On another note; what will this do to all the computers out there that can read and write to PC formated disks? Like Amiga, Mac, Apple II, C64 ect? Will they go after anyone for the cash?
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voytech wrote:
It's really sick! Why people just don't want to use free software (GNU) and get away from M$ policies?? I mean, everthing is going to be "Designed for WinShit XXX". Do you know how much I had to search a driver for my canon S400 printer (now it's everywhere, but then..), it came with 2 cd's for windblows, and nothing for linux..
The legacy support for applications, game and skills set would serve as a bloat achor for MS.
Linux driver ecosystem (2.4) model currently suck i.e. many of the open source authors scratching the same itch but still missing the mark. Under guidance of Linus, perhaps it will be fix in 2.6 kernel.
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Just found something! M$ developped an ASSIGN (http://weblogs.asp.net/jnadal/posts/34413.aspx) command for their new windback longhorns command line interface emulator (couldn't find a better word for win shell). For how long Amiga Dos had it??
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1) The slip in the launch date for Longhorn is causing the Windows group trouble meeting internal profit quotas - this will easily solve that.
I reckon Longhorn will get shelved. I think the featureset MS wanted to release with it is going to get broken down over a number of releases, as it has done with MS and "next gen OS's" for a long time.
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bloodline wrote:
mikeymike wrote:
MS-DOS compatible but with an incompatible filesystem? :roll:
Yes, think about it, there are wider-reaching implications in this. Think operating system support.
Um... Can't we cleanroom a compatible Fat12 FS?
Precedent would probably come from GIF licensing schemes. It’s morally repugnant IF the companies release the said standard while free (implied) then turn around and charge the customers. IF these companies have plans to charge royalties in the future why didn't they stated this fact during the initial release(back in 1980s)?
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The nasty trick with this is that they allowed this violation of copyrights (I assume they have a copyright on FAT) until the cameras and so are generally accepted.
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I've just remembered that all PC BIOS chips use FAT to read the boot disk... this really is a bad bad thing...
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@Speelgoedmannetje
The nasty trick with this is that they allowed this violation of copyrights (I assume they have a copyright on FAT) until the cameras and so are generally accepted.
That's the whole point. Now that they see that something is worth while charging they do. Give something for free and when it is used a lot charge for it.
Coder
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Monopoly
No other comments :-(
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Seriously, Guys. Are any of you the least bit suprised at all this???
Tis a sad day, indeed. I suppose all the systems used in HELL are going to have to pay royalties too, or did ol' Bill use this as an excuse for getting out of the charges for selling his soul??
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bloodline wrote:
I've just remembered that all PC BIOS chips use FAT to read the boot disk... this really is a bad bad thing...
Refer to
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/developer/0,39020387,39116902,00.htm
Microsoft has expanded its relationship with BIOS maker Phoenix Technologies. BIOS support for FAT would be OK for now…
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CodeSmith wrote:
Besides, one of the articles said that CF manufacturers have to pay a fee for each preformatted card, that means that it's the raw format that is being licensed, not the filesystem's algorithms.
Hmm, so surely all they have to do is provide the flash memory unformatted, leaving formatting as an exercise to the user? I assume these are just like floppy disks (which incidentally also tend to come pre-formatted with FAT FS), and don't care what format they have - so on an Amiga you could format them with FFS.
Digital cameras are another matter though, as they internally need to be able to read the filesystem. The best bet here is to devise a custom filesystem, but that not only makes it overly complicated to read with Windows (it is near impossible to get Windows to read any non-native filesystems, just like you can't easily add drivers for new types of hardware), but makes it even more difficult to read with any other OS, because the manufacturer isn't going to provide a Linux, Mac or Amiga compatible filesystem to use with their camera.
So, much as I hate to say it, and much as I think FAT is probably the worst filesystem anybody could consider using, looking at the alternatives, digital camera wise, it is probably best if they just buy a licence.
For normal storage devices though I would leave them with no filesystem if possible and leave any formatting up to the user.
Chris
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Coder wrote:
That's the whole point. Now that they see that something is worth while charging they do. Give something for free and when it is used a lot charge for it.
I think there is a lesson to be learnt here: if you want to make a device which is in some way reliant on non-open non-free standards, find an open and free standard to use instead!
Chris
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I've just remembered that all PC BIOS chips use FAT to read the boot disk... this really is a bad bad thing...
It's not that bad. For us anyway. That'll get subsidised before our step in the food chain.
I'm more worried about operating system development.
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Hammer wrote:
Microsoft has expanded its relationship with BIOS maker Phoenix Technologies. BIOS support for FAT would be OK for now…
Hmm, Microsoft and Phoenix... this trusted computer platform was brought to you by the letters D, R and M... ;-)
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Hmm, Microsoft and Phoenix... this trusted computer platform was brought to you by the letters D, R and M
I was thinking that as well. Microsoft "expanding their relationship with a company" usually means "expanding that company's hole for fun, profit and The Microsoft Way".
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So, does anyone know how long patents last then?
:-?
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Re: ASSIGN
Amiga has had this command forever. I'm sure it's been patented somewhere. Just got to find someone willing to prove it in court.
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So, does anyone know how long patents last then?
Does it matter after the whole Mickey Mouse trademark/copyright?
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Hmm, so surely all they have to do is provide the flash memory unformatted, leaving formatting as an exercise to the user? I assume these are just like floppy disks (which incidentally also tend to come pre-formatted with FAT FS), and don't care what format they have - so on an Amiga you could format them with FFS.
I don't think you're grasping all the implications of the raw format being licensed. That means that it's impossible to write a non-infringing FAT filesystem, because regardless of how it's written, the bits on the disk (ie what is being licensed) must be the same, otherwise it's not a FAT disk. This affects the amiga because if one does not pay the license, then the only way to share files with a PC is a network of some kind, or a writable CD.
That said, I'd gladly pay an extra quarter for OS4 if it means I won't have to worry about this. People like Hyperion and Genesi aren't going to be hugely affected, especially if the license is a once-only, per-copy fee for the driver. The ones who are royally screwed are the ones writing open-source filesystems (eg the AROS crew).
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that_punk_guy wrote:
Hammer wrote:
Microsoft has expanded its relationship with BIOS maker Phoenix Technologies. BIOS support for FAT would be OK for now…
Hmm, Microsoft and Phoenix... this trusted computer platform was brought to you by the letters D, R and M... ;-)
To quote the article
Phoenix said the DRM-enabled CME was not part of Microsoft's NGSCB, but that the technology was complementary. The CME would allow PC makers to embed digital rights management directly into the hardware, though they would have the option of allowing users to turn it off.
PS; Such Identifiable IDs was already included in Intel’s Pentium VI processor (can be turned off or on).
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So, does anyone know how long patents last then?
American Patents last approx. 20 years. If I remember correctly, the owner of the patent also has first dibs at re-purchasing it. If they don't do so in the alloted time, which is BEFORE the said patents expire, they are put on the market to be purchased by the highest bidder.
Microsoft probably makes sure not to lose any patents.
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mikeymike wrote:
Does it matter after the whole Mickey Mouse trademark/copyright?
Hmm maybe not , good point
If you have enough influence and money I guess you can write your own law books :-(
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Coder wrote:
@Speelgoedmannetje
The nasty trick with this is that they allowed this violation of copyrights (I assume they have a copyright on FAT) until the cameras and so are generally accepted.
That's the whole point. Now that they see that something is worth while charging they do. Give something for free and when it is used a lot charge for it.
Coder
What I wanted to tell is that it is their strategy from the beginning
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CodeSmith wrote:
I don't think you're grasping all the implications of the raw format being licensed. That means that it's impossible to write a non-infringing FAT filesystem, because regardless of how it's written, the bits on the disk (ie what is being licensed) must be the same, otherwise it's not a FAT disk. This affects the amiga because if one does not pay the license, then the only way to share files with a PC is a network of some kind, or a writable CD.
Hmm, okay, but it doesn't affect the Amiga much, because most users would already have CrossDOS or similar. Having said that, it would make things a teensy bit inconvenient for new users.
@Hammer
Pentium VI? Can I borrow your time machine? :-)
Chris
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Hmm, okay, but it doesn't affect the Amiga much, because most users would already have CrossDOS or similar. Having said that, it would make things a teensy bit inconvenient for new users.
If a filesystem converter was written... a util that detects the FATxx filesystem, doesn't let the user read it, just ask if it wants to be converted to (whatever), including all the data.
Just a thought.
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Pentium VI? Can I borrow your time machine?
LOL, I didn't even think of that (version jump). I just ignored whoever said it originally because I was thinking that no successor to the P4 has been announced in any shape or form yet :-)
I wonder if AMD had continued primarily calling their CPUs K7, K8, etc, rather than Athlon..., whether Intel would have done what Netscape did in terms of version skipping.
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What about the patent that Amiga supposedly holds for autoboot cd's ?
must be a bob or two worth chasing M$ for !! :-o
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chris wrote:
@Hammer
Pentium VI? Can I borrow your time machine? :-)
Chris
Ops, I flipped the “IV” chars… :-o :-D
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must be a bob or two worth chasing M$ for !!
Would you still like Amiga/compatibles if their respective makers sunk as low as MS tactics?
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chris wrote:
@Hammer
Pentium VI? Can I borrow your time machine? :-)
:python: :python: :python:
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mikeymike wrote:
Pentium VI? Can I borrow your time machine?
LOL, I didn't even think of that (version jump). I just ignored whoever said it originally because I was thinking that no successor to the P4 has been announced in any shape or form yet :-)
I flipped the IV characters around, my mistake (i.e. time to stick with the normal 1,2,3...n).
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ould you still like Amiga/compatibles if their respective makers sunk as low as MS tactics?
Only if it was for money to advance the "alternatives" to M$
and if they proved beforehand they desperately needed the money, then I could forgive them.
until they didnt desperately need the money
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Bah! Just tell me ho long till OpenFAT (the liposuction, I mean err) the FAT compatible file system is out. 50 to 1 wouldn't be any more illegal than WINe.
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Yup. This is exactly what is pushing me back to non M$ platforms. Between this and "Paladium" or whatever it's called now, I really am just wanting to have to use their stuff less and less. Given that my work revolves around a lot of M$ products, I can honestly say that I'm sick of it all. I remember when computers in general were fun, and M$ has taken all of the fun out of mainstream computing for me.
That leads me here. :-D Ahhhh Amiga......
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American Patents last approx. 20 years. If I remember correctly, the owner of the patent also has first dibs at re-purchasing it. If they don't do so in the alloted time, which is BEFORE the said patents expire, they are put on the market to be purchased by the highest bidder.
I work in the Industrial Property industry and US Patents last 20 years. After which as far as I am aware you can't repurchase it, they just lapse.
The patents listed in the article were all taken out in the mid 90's so MS still has at least ten years left in them.
As to Amiga holding the patent to Autoboot CD's, does anyone know anymore about it? I might look into it out of interest?
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@ Dalamar,
Welcome home. Of all the operating systems I've used this one is the most user friendly.
Chris
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Boy, this is harsh. You really only have a choice between FAT12, FAT16, FAT32, or NTFS if you want to talk to Windows. Besides, any dependence on a Windows filesystem means paying Microsoft a fee. You can't use NTFS, because MS will charge for that, too. What, are you supposed to FTP everything or use embedded IP interfaces with HTML interfaces? What a mess.
You also have to think about all the Kiosk machines that are based on other operating systems. Will every public terminal have to pay Microsoft, too? Then again, I haven't seen a Kiosk in a LONG time that didn't run Windows. I remember when Kodak used Macs for all their Kiosks, and now they all run WinNT/2K.
Matt_H: Amiga has had this command forever. I'm sure it's been patented somewhere. Just got to find someone willing to prove it in court.
Don't most UNIX shells have that command, too? I thought they had more than just the mount command.
MikeyMike: Does it matter after the whole Mickey Mouse trademark/copyright?
Ah, ownership. If you take a photograph of an old painting, you can charge a license fee for the right to use the photo, because the photo is copyrighted, even if the painting is not. Hence, all art history books have full credits for museums and private owners, usually including the term, "graciously provided by..." :-)
MikeyMike: Would you still like Amiga/compatibles if their respective makers sunk as low as MS tactics?
Who says they haven't? Putting a ROM chip on the AmigaOne instead of an EEPROM for copy protection purposes is sinking pretty low as it is, and OS4 will probably be cracked from day 1, anyway.
Twin: I work in the Industrial Property industry and US Patents last 20 years.
Ah, I thought it was 14 years.
Anyway, I wish more people understood the differences between a copyright, a trademark, and a patent.
QuickSanz: Welcome home. Of all the operating systems I've used this one is the most user friendly.
And the most unique. I'm sick of Linux imitating everything Windows does while using glossy Mac graphics. Everyone else just clones UNIX, 80-column displays and all. I see no point in making an alternative OS unless you write a unique graphics system and completely re-work the interface.
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Ah, I thought it was 14 years.
Although I work in Australia, as I understand it a Utility patent last 20 years and a design patent last 14 years in the US.
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Coder wrote:
Hi,
Yup M$ is at it again. From now on companies that make camera's have to pay M$ 25 dollar cents for each sold camera. The payment is for the FAT filesystem. Also the creators of memory cards have to pay. And you have some others products that use it and will be next up.
Coder
I have nothing against the collection of royalties for your patents, however, why can't these companies just use different file systems?
I don't have memory cards here, however can't I just format them to a different file system?
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@QuikSanz
Thanks! I'm a little distressed at the downward direction of things Amiga, but I have hopes. It's good to be back into things once Commodore. :-)
@ iamaboringperson
Tis true you could format the card in another format, but devices (digital camera's and such) will write in the format they were programmed to, and since the mass consumer uses M$ mostly, guess what format everything will write in. :-(
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I'm probably missing something, but isn't this remotely like purchasing a license for OS3.9, and then having to pay another license fee for every device you happen to use FastFileSystem with? It seems to me if you've already purchased a license for Windows, that license should extend to its software without having to pay for licenses with third party equipment.
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bloodline wrote:
I've just remembered that all PC BIOS chips use FAT to read the boot disk... this really is a bad bad thing...
Whu..?
The PC BIOS code reads the first sector of the media, which in turn contains the bootloader that loads the OS.
Either the bootloader can know FAT (grub) or it can just know the sectors it needs to read to find the OS image (LILO).
If the bootloader doesn't know FAT, then the OS is finally the one that may or may not be able to read FAT disks.. Depending on the OS and it's configs of course.
Basically you can boot a PC without it knowing a thing about FAT, if you use LILO and leave FAT support out of the Linux kernel.
On a PC, the bootblock (boot sector) always takes control of the entire machine once it's loaded and run.. On the Amiga, multitasking is already going by the time the OS starts thinking about searching for a boot volume.
Some PC BIOSes might have the ability to fix themselves by reading the BIOS image in from a FAT formatted disk, but that's a special case and isn't in any way related to the booting procedure.
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@Waccoon:
Who says they haven't? Putting a ROM chip on the AmigaOne instead of an EEPROM for copy protection purposes is sinking pretty low as it is, and OS4 will probably be cracked from day 1, anyway.
I would say that protecting themselves from pirates in a way that is 100% transparent to legit users is not "sinking" to any level. What level are you sinking to when you lock the door to your house? those poor burglars have starving kids too, you know.
If you're suggesting that the pirate protection is to keep Pegasos users from using AmigaOS4, well you can thank Bill Buck for choosing the nastiest dongle ever: the Marvell Discovery chipset, which is 100% incompatible with the Articia S, the only PPC chipset that AmigaOS4 knows how to talk to. If someone can demo a working copy of OS4 on a Pegasos 2, I will be very impressed indeed.
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Dalamar wrote:
Yup. This is exactly what is pushing me back to non M$ platforms. Between this and "Paladium" or whatever it's called now, I really am just wanting to have to use their stuff less and less. Given that my work revolves around a lot of M$ products, I can honestly say that I'm sick of it all. I remember when computers in general were fun, and M$ has taken all of the fun out of mainstream computing for me.
That leads me here. :-D Ahhhh Amiga......
Yes, another M$ Borg returns home after freeing his mind from Winblows.
Celebrate . . . :pint:
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@iamaboringperson
I have nothing against the collection of royalties for your patents
Oh I agree. But for such a big company as M$ they could just leave it as it is and create some goodwill (if that is possible) amongst us users. If it was a small company that wanted to do that I could understand.
Coder
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@Waccoon
I'm sick of Linux imitating everything Windows does while using glossy Mac graphics.
I agree so much on that. I remember when Linux was fun but now I have to admit it's turning into a Windows clone. Because that is what will attract the non-geeks they think. It got to stop.
Coder
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Jope wrote:
bloodline wrote:
I've just remembered that all PC BIOS chips use FAT to read the boot disk... this really is a bad bad thing...
Whu..?
The PC BIOS code reads the first sector of the media, which in turn contains the bootloader that loads the OS.
Either the bootloader can know FAT (grub) or it can just know the sectors it needs to read to find the OS image (LILO).
If the bootloader doesn't know FAT, then the OS is finally the one that may or may not be able to read FAT disks.. Depending on the OS and it's configs of course.
Basically you can boot a PC without it knowing a thing about FAT, if you use LILO and leave FAT support out of the Linux kernel.
On a PC, the bootblock (boot sector) always takes control of the entire machine once it's loaded and run.. On the Amiga, multitasking is already going by the time the OS starts thinking about searching for a boot volume.
Some PC BIOSes might have the ability to fix themselves by reading the BIOS image in from a FAT formatted disk, but that's a special case and isn't in any way related to the booting procedure.
Boot linux, and format a floppy using ext2 file system.
Now put the standard MSDOS shell command.com on that disk.
pop that floppy disk in the drive and rest your machine. it will come up with an error.
Now format the disk using FAT12 and put the command.com program on there... now rename the program foobar.com.
Reset the machine, and when it boots, it will promt you for the file name of the command interpreter... which can be entered and it will boot.
Hense the BIOS can read the FS...
But more interestingly, tell me more about this booting from a disk if the BIOS is dead?
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@Speulgoudmannegie
Fully off topic!! Lots of excuses.
Komst hailmoal oet Stad? Ende fot, ja! Hefe Weiss bier? Lekker man! Kom moar ais aine drink'n!
Tjitte (daipfraize...)
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@mikeymike
It reminds me of a story I heard about the old days of IBM and mainframes, where they used to charge depending on how many CPU cycles were used by the customer. Damn that would be expensive on Windows
It reminds me of IBM mainframes using cardreaders, way back in the seventies. I used to work at a local computer centre where 5 cardreaders were employed. Licenced for use at up to 100 cards or so a minute. Until one of our more clever minds discovered that you only needed a different belt to drive the machine. The puleys were all in place to achieve a 600 cards per minute performance. We only paid for a low performance 100 cards per minute machine. Nobody noticed. Until suddenly without any reason am IBM senior technician came down and noticed the incredible speed of the machines...
Just for the fun of reciting...
cheers,
Tjitte
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@ mikeymike
reckon Longhorn will get shelved. I think the featureset MS wanted to release with it is going to get broken down over a number of releases, as it has done with MS and "next gen OS's" for a long time.
Couldn't it be that longhorn is a bit resource-hungry and that Intel has a few problems to deal with their P5 incarnation of the processor? Heat problems for instance? It is reported that the P5 already consumes about a 135 Watts while not significantly outperforming a top-notch P4. Which means that power consumption will be enormous when higher clockings ar reached.
But why are we so interested in Wintel? We eat, sleap, dream, chase, love, hug, caress, toy, pat, tickle, kiss, wipe, customize, and do all other kinds of frolicking about an Amiga, THE Amiga, isn't it?
cheers,
Tjitte.
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Couldn't it be that longhorn is a bit resource-hungry
Since when has that stopped MS releasing new operating systems? (semiserious)
Intel has a few problems to deal with their P5 incarnation of the processor? Heat problems for instance? It is reported that the P5 already consumes about a 135 Watts while not significantly outperforming a top-notch P4. Which means that power consumption will be enormous when higher clockings ar reached.
The Prescott core (what a great name) hasn't been dubbed the P5 yet. I don't think a CPU delay would affect MS in any way. There's already the AMD64 which works, is currently available and MS have allegedly been writing a 64-bit version of XP. You may be confusing the Intel heat stories between their Itanium processor range and the Prescott core.
Intel have said something amusing about 100W heat dissipation being perfectly acceptable, kind of reminds me of "640K should be enough for anyone" :-) I think the feedback they received after that 100W comment forced them to rethink. People don't like their PCs sounding like vacuum cleaners.
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Power consumption and dissipation of Intel processors is insane! And this M$ thing charging for FAT ... what a joke! 'Nuff said.
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bloodline wrote:
Boot linux, and format a floppy using ext2 file system.
Now put the standard MSDOS shell command.com on that disk.
pop that floppy disk in the drive and rest your machine. it will come up with an error.
That's because there is no bootblock telling it what it should do next. Format a disk with NTFS and it will complain "cannot find NTLDR". Format a disk as FAT with CrossDOS and it gives you a different message (something about it being a non-bootable CrossDOS formatted disk, but I forget the exact wording).
The same thing applies on the Amiga, if you don't run "install", the disk won't boot. If you run "install" from 2.0+, you get a blank screen and it loads s:startup-sequence. Commercial games had their own custom bootblock, often on a not normally readable filesystem, and they still managed to boot.
Chris
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I have nothing against the collection of royalties for your patents, however, why can't these companies just use different file systems?
I don't have memory cards here, however can't I just format them to a different file system?
Then it would probably be unreadable by 99% of the devices that use this flash cards :-( This is due to the fact that i think they only support fat fs... pretty sad indeed
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I do have software that let me read Macintosh Zip/Floppy discs on my PC.
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CodeSmith: What level are you sinking to when you lock the door to your house?
I can change the lock on my house without having to send the whole door to the manufacturer to have it "refurbished". Just about all hardware these days, from video cards to CD-ROMs allow firmware updates. A fixed ROM BIOS is just so... Amiga.
If you're suggesting that the pirate protection is to keep Pegasos users from using AmigaOS4, well you can thank Bill Buck for choosing the nastiest dongle ever: the Marvell Discovery chipset, which is 100% incompatible with the Articia S
Only on the Pegasos2. The Pegasos uses the same chipset as the AmigaOne.
Coder: I agree so much on that. I remember when Linux was fun but now I have to admit it's turning into a Windows clone. Because that is what will attract the non-geeks they think. It got to stop.
Well, there's little central unification when it comes to anything other than the kernel, so Linux probably will never make any major strides in the interface, anyway. People still blame Red Hat for trying.
Linux is made by geeks for geeks. That is its audience, and it will probably stay there. The only hope I see for turning Linux into a true desktop machine is to eliminate the XWindows way of thinking and make a new interface. Of course, if you do that, there are better kernel choices, too.
My ideal system would be QNX running a GUI similar to the original Amiga, an entirely new shell, and a built-in interpreted programming language (more like Java and less like Perl/PHP). I see no point in making a new OS just to run bash, XWindows, Gnome...
iamaboringperson: I don't have memory cards here, however can't I just format them to a different file system?
Memory card readers don't care, but cameras do. Nobody saw the crackdown on FAT coming, so everybody just used FAT12 by default so everything would work with Windows.
It's just a popularity issue, though. I'm sure Apple would have done the same with HFS if they owned the market. Being #2 in the industry makes it a bit hard for Apple to put their foot down and charge for every little piece of their pie.
Bloodline: Hense the BIOS can read the FS...
PC BIOS is obsolete. All it really does is monitor hardware and activate the boot drive so the OS can be started. After that, the OS and drivers do all the work. 90% of BIOS options these days are set to defaults and ignored, unless you're trying to get Windows3.1 to boot. ;-)
But more interestingly, tell me more about this booting from a disk if the BIOS is dead?
ROM backup. Intel mobos do that. I salvaged a non-working Intel motherboard for $20 ($90 value), just by downloading an emergency BIOS tool from the Intel website. What a deal! I wish all motherboards had a small ROM for reading the floppy drive and reprogramming the BIOS. It would make BIOS updates a lot less worrysome. :-D
Chris: That's because there is no bootblock telling it what it should do next. Format a disk with NTFS and it will complain "cannot find NTLDR".
Yup. The Bootblock of an NTFS partition is too small to do anything major, so it does its thing, then looks for NTLDR. It must have some sort of security check, though, since if something happens to the filesystem, the machine will complain it can't find NTLDR, even though it is there and intact. NTFS is a real pain in the ass.
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I work in the Industrial Property industry and US Patents last 20 years. After which as far as I am aware you can't repurchase it, they just lapse.
See, I wasn't too clear on that. I was under the impression that a said person could protect his intellectual property, hence the said 'FAT' format.
If what you say is true, why is it that Microsoft waited until about the same time Windoze came out?!?
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PC BIOS is obsolete. All it really does is monitor hardware and activate the boot drive so the OS can be started. After that, the OS and drivers do all the work. 90% of BIOS options these days are set to defaults and ignored, unless you're trying to get Windows3.1 to boot.
IF it’s obsolete why not just re-flash your BIOS with zeros? Let's see IF your system can boot up... Obsolesce means that an item can be discarded.
Modern PC BIOS is important since they take care most of the integrated features (i.e. activation/ deactivation) of any full featured X86 motherboards. These integrated features can range from SATA RAID, PATA RAID, AC97, 1394, USB Mouse/Keyboard, FSB settings**, voltage settings**, memory settings**, 100Mb/1Gb NICs, AGP Aperture, AGP8X activation/deactivation switch, AGP fast writes, dual BIOS and etc.
MS WinXP drivers wouldn't see SATA RAID, PATA RAID and AC97 IF they are deactivated via PC’s BIOS settings.
PS; The mentioned integrated features are all present in GA-7N400 Pro2*. ASUS A7N8X Deluxe* also has similar features sets.
*Illustrated as examples.
**Extensive features for overclocking and performance oriented tweaking.
None of X86 LinuxBIOS will replace the nForce 2 BIOS in terms of the feature set. IF there is one then would like to hear it.
PC's BIOS shields Windows the difference between chipsets for booting, safe mode and during setup** i.e. VIA KT600 (VIA 4in1 drivers) vs NVIDIA nForce2 (NV Forceware) vs Intel 865/875 and 'etc'.
You can’t say something is obsolete IF said item is important to the system processes.
Refer to
http://www.usenix.org/events/usenix03/tech/freenix03/agnew/agnew_html/index.html
Look for "Table 1" and refer to "Operating system dependencies on BIOS interrupt functionality".
Also, there are terms that associated with PC BIOS e.g.
PNP BIOS
ACPI, I.e Power On by keyboard, Power On by Mouse,Modem RingOn, PME Event Wake Up,
PCI Table
Int13 Handling
'etc'.
PS;
1. VIA’s Hyperion 4in1_V4.51 drivers will override any AGP Aperture settings to 32(i.e. workarounds) since there are issues with VIA based chipsets, +1GB memory and ATI AGP cards.
2.
As for "PC BIOS. The BIOS, most always written in assembler, operates mostly in 16 bit mode, and provides services that few modern 32 bit operating systems require" Usenix's fluff,
Phoenix BIOS 4.0 supports " BIOS32 Service Directory" i.e. for 32bit code and services.
http://www.phoenix.com/en/customer+services/white+papers-specs/pc+industry+specifications.htm
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Couldn't it be that longhorn is a bit resource-hungry
Did you forget Windows Anvil?
Some of the Window’s new and near future releases are; (not including Windows Longhorn release)
MS Windows XP Media Centre (2004) X86-32 OEM/RTM (OEM update (?)).
MS Windows XP Media Centre X86-32 OEM/RTM.
MS Windows XP AMD64* (a.k.a **Windows Anvil (relates to Claw/Sledge Hammer processors)).
MS Windows 2003 Server AMD64**
MS Windows CE .NET 4.2 (current)
MS Windows CE .NET 5.0 (future)
*Substantially different to MS Windows XP IA-64 e.g. better legacy and games support.
As with Windows 9X code base; Microsoft will probably milk Windows NT 5.x code base until Windows longhorn is ready.
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Intel have said something amusing about 100W heat dissipation being perfectly acceptable, kind of reminds me of "640K should be enough for anyone"
Well, Intel has stated something like "the mainstream users doesn’t need a relatively cheap 64bit processor".
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Vfat compatible filesystems are ok. the only thing MS are charging people for are VFat file systems, not VFat compatible filesystems!
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Now format the disk using FAT12 and put the command.com program on there... now rename the program foobar.com.
Reset the machine, and when it boots, it will promt you for the file name of the command interpreter... which can be entered and it will boot.
Hense the BIOS can read the FS...
No, I think that's false
The code that asks you for the name of the command interpreter will do the same thing regardless of the BIOS, the code to do that is written on the bootblock.
The BIOS can read the bootblock into memory and execute code from it.
Try using a QNX disk, or a Linux boot disk.
Or one interesting idea, is to use PC-TASK, to format a floppy, it has its own interesting code for the boot block!! ;-)
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IF it’s obsolete why not just re-flash your BIOS with zeros? Let's see IF your system can boot up... Obsolesce means that an item can be discarded.
No, obsolete means something is outmoded, which can also mean unfashionable or infirior. That doesn't always mean it can be discarded. Of course, I'm thinking in terms of not needing Windows, anymore. :-)
The majority of BIOS tweaks are to ensure legacy support, like all those PCI interrupt mappings and crap. If your OS doesn't need that stuff because it can use drivers instead, there's no reason to have the BIOS handle it.
That's why I don't get the comment that the BIOS has FAT support. A BIOS shouldn't handle the filesystem, it only [should] read the boot sector.
PC's BIOS shields Windows the difference between chipsets for booting, safe mode and during setup
Yes, yes. It does that by using the oldest access modes possible. That's what I mean by that remaining 10% of the current BIOS that's actually useful.
Hammer: Modern PC BIOS is important since they take care most of the integrated features (i.e. activation/ deactivation) of any full featured X86 motherboards. These integrated features can range from SATA RAID, PATA RAID, AC97, 1394, USB Mouse/Keyboard, FSB settings**, voltage settings**, memory settings**, 100Mb/1Gb NICs, AGP Aperture, AGP8X activation/deactivation switch, AGP fast writes, dual BIOS and etc.
Why do you have to disable hardware if the OS can simply ignore it (no driver is initialized)? Sounds more like bad design to me. What companies actually standardize BIOS architecture?
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No, obsolete means something is outmoded, which can also mean unfashionable or infirior.
IF something is 'obsolete' it’s usually that item has been replace with something else, thus it’s non-importance i.e. one can get rid of it all together.
That doesn't always mean it can be discarded. Of course, I'm thinking in terms of not needing Windows, anymore.
Can you detail why is that the case (in regards to" I'm thinking in terms of not needing Windows, anymore")?
Most modern OSes are mainly copies from the 1970s Unix OS.
Yes, yes. It does that by using the oldest access modes possible. That's what I mean by that remaining 10% of the current BIOS that's actually useful.
Actually the original PC BIOS is only ~64KB, while ASUS A7N8X-DLX BIOS 1007’s and GA-7N400Pro2's F5 BIOS size is at 512KB (illustrated as examples).
With a standardised ecosystem, an unsupported X86 PC OS can run on a new X86 platform e.g. nForce II/nForce III, Intel 865/875, AMD K8 Solo and 'etc'.
This insurance policy gives it's users the freedom to choice for any future**, current and past X86 PC operating systems. Such insurance was important for the introduction of AMD K8 based motherboards for gaining certain level of usability.
**IF MS and Phoenix didn't change the standard e.g. Windows Longhorn beta still runs on X86 PC box.
Legacy is actually the main strength of X86 PC’s dominance (i.e. it acts as a boat anchor, software investment protection and an insurance policy) while going forward via new driver support.
Why do you have to disable hardware if the OS can simply ignore it (no driver is initialized)? Sounds more like bad design to me.
I can give a few reasons for BIOS options and these are
1. It gives the user the options i.e. a user may not have SATA drive and Firewire add-ons at this time, thus disabling the features.
2. Non-OS centric for choosing what’s on and what’s off. PS; WinXP can ignore unwanted hardware features (OS centric selection).
3. Make the boot time faster by turning off unneeded features. For example, AC97 ALC650 (with 5.1) sound chip was turned off due to my selection for Audigy 2 ZS 7.1 card and faster boot times.
4. A Linux distro can avoid confusion when AC97 and EMU10K (connected to speakers) are present(for automated setup).
5. Why set a single way of enabling/disabling of HW features?
What companies actually standardize BIOS architecture?
In modern times, it's primary by Microsoft and Phoenix. Both has substantial market power thus creation of the “de’facto standard”. IBM was the initial standard setter.
At the moment PowerPC desktop PC clone market doesn’t really have de’facto BIOS maker.
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Ok, with assistance of dictionary here:
Obsolete: not in use any more, having been replaced by something newer and better or more fashionable.
Further computer-centric example:
As far as the average user is concerned, the 486 is obsolete. You can't run anything remotely modern on it, you can't upgrade it, nobody (average users) uses them anymore. Nothing is being written for it anymore.
Obsolescent: Becoming obsolete.
Further computer-centric example:
I think it's safe to say everything previous to the Pentium III is obsolescent. Difficult to upgrade, but still possible, and usable by average modern computer standards. New apps can still run on them.
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The majority of BIOS tweaks are to ensure legacy support, like all those PCI interrupt
mappings and crap.
Have you looked at a modern X86 BIOS?
Should one list the feature set from nForce2(illustrated as an example) motherboard?
E.g. In AwardBIOS's (ASUS A7N8X-DLX Ver1.0x)
0. Main
+ System Date
+ System Time
+ Legacy Diskette A
+ Legacy Diskette B
+ Half On (All Errors, No Errors, All but Keyboard,, All but Diskette, All but Disk/key)
+ Primary Master/Slave, (has it's own sub menu)
+ Secondary Master/Slave, (has it's own sub menu)
1. Advanced BIOS
+Boot Virus Detection
+ CPU Level 1 Cache (Enable/Disable)
+ CPU Level 2 Cache (Enable/Disable)
+ Quick Power On Self Test (Enable/Disable)
+ First Boot Device (FDD, LS120, HDD-0/1/2/3, SCSI, CDROM, ZIP100, LAN, Disabled)
+ Second Boot Device (FDD, LS120, HDD-0/1/2/3, SCSI, CDROM, ZIP100, LAN, Disabled)
+ Third Boot Device (FDD, LS120, HDD-0/1/2/3, SCSI, CDROM, ZIP100, LAN, Disabled)
+ Boot Other Devices //Boot other devices that was not defined in the first 3.
+ Boot-up Flooy Seek (Enable/Disable)
+ Boot-up NumLock Status(ON/OFF)
+ Gate A20 Option (FAST/Normal)
+ APIC Mode (Enable/Disable)
+ OS/2 Onboard memory > 64MB (Enable/Disable)
+ Full Screen LOGO Show (Enable/Disable)
+ POST Complete Report (Enable/Disable)
+ Speech POST Reporter (Enable/Disable) // PC communicates its POST result via audio (human Speech, Star Trek style).
2. Advanced Chipset Features
+ CPU External Frequency
+ CPU Frequency Multiple Settings
+ CPU Frequency Multiple
+ System Performace (Optimal, Aggressive, user Defined)
+ CPU Interface (Optimal, Aggressive) //for Northbridge <> CPU link.
+ Memory Frequency (By SPD, Sync, 50% .. 200 %)
+ Resulting Frequency //Memory Frequency
+ Memory Timings (Optimal, Aggressive, user defined)
+ .. To many to list in regards to Memory Timings.
+ FSB Spread Spectrum (Enable/Disable)
+ AGP Spread Spectrum (Enable/Disable)
+ CPU Vcore Settings (Auto/Menu)
+ Graphic Aperture Size (xx MB) //for AGP gfx data.
+ AGP Frequency (Auto, 50..100 Mhz)
+ System BIOS Cacheable (Enable/Disable)
+ Video RAM Cacheable (Enable/Disable)
+ DDR Reference Voltage
+ AGP VDDQ Voltage
+ AGP 8X Support (Enable/Disable)
+ AGP Fast Write Capability (Enable/Disable).
(For stability/performance/overclocking, not quite "legacy support").
3. Integrated Peripherals
+ 19 Items. (too many to list)
4. Power Management Setup
+ 11 Items. (too many to list)
5. Pnp/PCI Configuration
+ 3 Items. //Manual mode presents user define IRQ assignments.
6. Secuity Menu (tried of typing)
Not including the built-in BIOS Flash software and ATA RAID setup BIOS screens. GA-7N400Pro2** has a similar features (too many to list).
**Illustrated as examples.
If your OS doesn't need that stuff because it can use drivers instead, there's no reason to have the BIOS handle it.
That would be OS centric options. What about non-OS centric options?
Why restrict the user's options?
That's why I don't get the comment that the BIOS has FAT support. A BIOS shouldn't handle the filesystem, it only [should] read the boot sector.
Flash BIOS software is now integrated within some modern BIOS. Gigabyte’s Dual BIOS features are considered better compared with ASUS's version. Downloading their online manuals will show you their usability.
In a competitive market, X86 motherboard manufactures are installing plenty of features to gain ones desire for purchasing their products. This is good for the end consumers.
I'm sure with rest of X86 motherboard manufactures (e.g. MSI, ABIT, AOpen, Epox and etc) will try to better that attempt.