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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Retrofan on November 05, 2010, 07:23:39 PM

Title: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Retrofan on November 05, 2010, 07:23:39 PM
Hi:
Just a simple question, the sheilding off is better to cool the motherboard or on the contrary?
I've heard to comment that with it off it will be cooler, but I was thinking if you are going to put a fan blowing air from outside to inside the sheilding won't it be cooler with the sheilding?
I was thinking just in how a Beetle engine (yes, the car, and it isn't water cooled) gets refrigerated, and it's only a fan moved by the engine making the air cool it. The engine compartment is sealed with metal plaques and if you remove any it will get hotter.
 
And I was thinking too that the metal sheilding will warm the hottest parts of the mb that will be near to it with the coldest ones.
 
What do you say?
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: rockape on November 05, 2010, 07:53:34 PM
Hi Retrofan,

I'm a great believer in removing the shielding from my A600's and A1200's, not only for cooling but also to allow you to examine closely the motherboard for potential trubs.

I also raise and support my A600's and A1200's at the back end, under the keyboard to encourage more of the passive cooling.
A standard "Door Stop" works a treat :)

If I install something which may increase the heat eg: Subway, Indivision etc I Duct Tape the inside of most of the top grill and install a fan in the gap to allow the air to be forced in to the computer.  

You can even install a small piece of filter material (like that used in Cooker Hoods) above the fan to stop dust etc being blown into the computer.


Regards, Michael

aka rockape
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: illy5603 on November 05, 2010, 08:08:04 PM
.
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: amigadave on November 05, 2010, 08:20:00 PM
Quote from: Retrofan;589682
Hi:
Just a simple question, the sheilding off is better to cool the motherboard or on the contrary?
I've heard to comment that with it off it will be cooler, but I was thinking if you are going to put a fan blowing air from outside to inside the sheilding won't it be cooler that without the sheilding?
I was thinking just in how a Beetle engine (yes, the car, and it isn't water cooled) gets refrigerated, and it's only a fan moved by the engine making the air cool it. The engine compartment is sealed with metal plaques and if you remove any it will get hotter.
 
And I was thinking too that the metal sheilding will warm the hottest parts of the mb that will be near to it with the coldest ones.
 
What do you say?

Not a good comparison.  The "Beetle" sheet metal that keeps the heated air around the exhaust system from entering the engine compartment is not filled with ventilation holes like the shielding inside the A500/A600/A1200, or any other computer models.

The shielding inside the above referenced Amiga computers is there only for electronic interference, not heat control.
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Retrofan on November 05, 2010, 08:56:35 PM
Quote from: amigadave;589697
Not a good comparison. The "Beetle" sheet metal that keeps the heated air around the exhaust system from entering the engine compartment is not filled with ventilation holes like the shielding inside the A500/A600/A1200, or any other computer models.
 
The shielding inside the above referenced Amiga computers is there only for electronic interference, not heat control.

Yes, I've considered both things. First about the holes, yes, but compared with the Beetle, it gets hotter with each plate you take off, but not so much as it had none. In the Amiga it only would mean that the better solution would be to close all the holes in the sheilding with aluminium tape and to let only one in the other side of the fan. I agree with Rockape, but surely would be better with the sheilding.
 
About the heat control I haven't say a word that it was for that, I know it isn't, but there wasn't a fan when they did it.
 
What I'm meaning is that a fan would have better cooling with a sheilding than without it, and the better would be what I've said: to close all holes and leave one on the other side of where the fan is installed.
 
Any car engineer there?
 
Ah, and for the better cooling, the sheilding should be painted BLACK.
Why? I'll tell you: I had a Beetle engine painted black. I changed all the metal plates to Chromed ones. The temperature rised up by 20ºC.
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: murple on November 05, 2010, 09:22:27 PM
On my 1200, I have to remove the shielding, otherwise things like my CF disk and Indivision won't fit in there. Unless you're watching a lot of TV over antenna (or maybe listening to radio) you probably don't need to worry about the shielding. Even then, the chances of it causing detectable interference on your TV aren't too troubling.
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Retrofan on November 05, 2010, 09:32:46 PM
Quote from: murple;589710
On my 1200, I have to remove the shielding, otherwise things like my CF disk and Indivision won't fit in there. .

Aaah the Indivision! I need one, and in fact I've opened this thread just for that while was talking to @phipscube. This post:
 
Question:
I don't have still an Indivision, but I have the internal Cd and the subway with the sheilding on. Do you know or believe it can be installed with the sheilding?
(well, I know the new Indivisions will be smaller, but can't wait so much)

Answer:
I never actually tried with the sheilding on and I wouldn't recommend it as it gets quite warm. But I *Think* its supposed to work ok with the sheilding on but a small modification is needed to the sheild itself from what I remember.

.....................
But the Indivision will fit or not with the sheilding?
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Franko on November 05, 2010, 09:36:07 PM
Two reasons to remove the sheilding are, 1) it's a pain in the Arm when trying to add something to a desktop Amiga and 2) being silver it actually reflects a lot of the heat back onto the chips... :)
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Retrofan on November 05, 2010, 09:39:53 PM
Quote from: Franko;589718
2) being silver it actually reflects a lot of the heat back onto the chips... :)
Yes, that's true, that's why it musn't be removed, but painted BLACK inside and outside...
 
Am I not convincing anybody?
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Franko on November 05, 2010, 09:45:27 PM
Quote from: Retrofan;589719
Am I not convincing anybody?


Nope... :)
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Retrofan on November 05, 2010, 09:50:02 PM
Quote from: Franko;589722
Nope... :)

... Somebody that tries this before I do?:laughing:
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Franko on November 05, 2010, 09:54:25 PM
Why not just buy one of those lovely new Amigas from CommodoreUSA, already done in black and so no need to paint, plus no overheating problems as they only exists in CommodoreUSA's imagination... :roflmao:
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Retrofan on November 05, 2010, 09:59:27 PM
Any german VW entusiast there?
 
I could put an sticker on the Amiga...
 
(http://www.ocmobileautodetail.com/images/volkswagen_logo.jpg)
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: TheGoose on November 05, 2010, 10:07:23 PM
Quote from: Retrofan;589726
Any german VW entusiast there?


Yep but not air cooler Retro; I would like to get one someday though. I want a Fastback pancake engine.

(http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/3822/4381/22054690002_large.jpg)

BTW, the shielding is for RF interference you know, not a cooling device of any kind.
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Retrofan on November 05, 2010, 10:13:31 PM
I've said I know it, but it wasn't designed with a fan on it, and I said it could be used to cool the motherboard the same way the Beetle does.
Germans know something about how to cool an engine only with air, see that Beetles in the desert in WW2... I heard there you could change two Jeeps for a Beetle...
 
Any proud German there?
 
About the photo, I'll tell you my father had one in white, although it's very very difficult to see one of those, at least here. I haven't seen one in 20 years :), is there any in the Moon?
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Franko on November 05, 2010, 10:17:10 PM
Quote from: TheGoose;589730
BTW, the shielding is for RF interference you know, not a cooling device of any kind.


Hmm... wondered why I was picking up radio 1 on my internal hard disk drive... :)
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Retrofan on November 05, 2010, 10:25:12 PM
Quote from: Franko;589736
Hmm... wondered why I was picking up radio 1 on my internal hard disk drive... :)

Try moving the Amiga, perhaps you can tune up some Tv program...
 
No germans at all here?
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: TheGoose on November 05, 2010, 10:35:35 PM
Only one broken down moon buggy. Somebody left it here.
:lol:
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Retrofan on November 05, 2010, 10:44:08 PM
Quote from: TheGoose;589738
Only one broken down moon buggy. Somebody left it here.
:lol:

It must be difficult to run an Amiga there, with temperatures between 387º Fahrenheit (-233 ºC) by night, and 253º Fahrenheit (123ºC) by day...
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: guest7146 on November 05, 2010, 11:25:59 PM
@retrofan,

I can see what you're getting at.  If the fan was inside the shielding as well, and you had strategic holes drilled into the shielding, then potentially yes the cooling would be improved I think because the air flow would be more concentrated over all of the components.

If you didn't drill any ventilation holes then no the cooling would not be improved because the hot air would stay inside the shielding.

Painting the shielding black is a good idea though.  I have tried to convince my partner that for maximum efficiency we should paint all our radiators in the house black, but she's having none of it.  Apparently the radiators would no longer be asthetically pleasing to the eye.  So as long as it looks good, right? :lol:

In practice though I'm not sure by how much the heating system efficiency would be improved by painting the radiators black.  I would like to try it, and generally my partner is very patient with my crazy experiments, but she draws the line there I'm afraid!!!

AH
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: tone007 on November 05, 2010, 11:42:31 PM
I have a Beetle and I have Amigas, they are unrelated!

Remove the shielding and throw it away, it's useless.
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Retrofan on November 06, 2010, 12:00:07 AM
Quote from: AppleHammer;589750
@retrofan,
 
I can see what you're getting at.

At least one convinced !!!
Quote from: AppleHammer;589750
@retrofan,
 
Apparently the radiators would no longer be asthetically pleasing to the eye. So as long as it looks good, right? :lol:
 
In practice though I'm not sure by how much the heating system efficiency would be improved by painting the radiators black. I would like to try it, and generally my partner is very patient with my crazy experiments, but she draws the line there I'm afraid!!!
 
AH

I was thinking that if I don't modify it all putting tape and painting all black, the next time I will open the sheilding at least I will paint it black inside the sheilding...
 
Quote from: tone007;589754
I have a Beetle and I have Amigas, they are unrelated!
 
Remove the shielding and throw it away, it's useless.

When you'll have the engine mounted piece by piece by you we can begin to talk. Air cooled refrigeration is related to any Amiga with a fan on it and PC's although you can't see it. Even water cooling is related to PC's... didn't you think where do they taked the idea? YES, they were cars ! This is my Beetle (Big photo, isn't it?... change your screen size:roflmao:)
 
(http://www.amiga.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=573)
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: tone007 on November 06, 2010, 01:10:30 AM
You're delusional.
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Retrofan on November 06, 2010, 01:18:18 AM
Quote from: tone007;589770
You're delusional.

Even Darwing  is hearing that now :furious:(Tea Party)
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: tone007 on November 06, 2010, 01:28:04 AM
Obviously, a sealed duct air exchange system like in a Beetle is good for cooling.  The plain shielding in a 1200 is not.  If you converted it into a sealed wind tunnel and pulled cool air through it, sure, that'd work.  However, you're better off just worrying about the chips that get hot and are likely to burn out and heatsink/fan them directly, the temperatures in a computer are nothing like the temperatures in a car's engine.  The vents in the top of your 1200 do allow heat out.
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Retrofan on November 06, 2010, 01:31:54 AM
Well, Ok, that's an opinion...:), I've never said I'm against heatsink/internal fans... and the heat out can be conduced by the sealed sheilding with the proper output for it.
 
I'm working hard to convince people... :hammer:. By now I've one on the list. Any other, ple:)se?
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: tone007 on November 06, 2010, 01:37:25 AM
Get yourself a nice '040@40mhz and trust it to your draft-tunnel experiment without its own fan and let me know how long it lasts.
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Retrofan on November 06, 2010, 01:45:59 AM
Quote from: tone007;589777
Get yourself a nice '040@40mhz and trust it to your draft-tunnel experiment without its own fan and let me know how long it lasts.

Why do you believe I'm taking so much effort to convince someone to try it before :roflmao:?
 
And the fan is the main thing: you can leave as many fans over any components as you want from outside the sheilding, sealing the rest of it and leaving an output for the air.
 
BTW the last time I saw your Amiga it had the accelerator outside the sheilding, have you changed something? I was thinking in things inside it like the Indivision...
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: tone007 on November 06, 2010, 01:56:14 AM
A fan will do more good directly cooling a heatsink attached to your hot chip(s) than it will drawing air through a space that really doesn't get all that hot anyway, unless you've got it crammed full of PPC and BVision stuff.  Sure, throw a nice jet-engine server-type cooling fan on the side of your 1200 for a nice noisy gimmick.

Judging by your car, you seem to enjoy attaching unnecessary things. ;)
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Retrofan on November 06, 2010, 01:59:32 AM
Quote from: tone007;589784

Judging by your car, you seem to enjoy attaching unnecessary things. ;)

Some people call things as unnecessary, others have Amigas and Showroom Beetles... but I like rusty Beetles too :lol:
 
Any other to join the list :rtfm:  ?
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: delshay on November 06, 2010, 07:17:31 AM
if everything is done correctly the sheilding can remain in place as i found image and also sound noise is reduce. but what some users are forgetting is if you add heatsink (let say a GFX card) if you ground the heatsink image seems a little bit sharper as lease here on my system.

the same appiles here too on my test sound card,background noise is reduced.

if you have hot componets you could try somekind of link to the sheilding,using it as a heatsink which iv seen one user here on this site has already done.
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Retrofan on November 06, 2010, 10:31:27 AM
Quote from: delshay;589815

if you have hot componets you could try somekind of link to the sheilding,using it as a heatsink which iv seen one user here on this site has already done.

Are you saying this Thread? http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=37417 Now the photos are gone, but I remember he made an aluminium trapdoor that was touching the cpu of the accelerator, and he joined a car battery cable or something similar between the trapdoor and the sheilding or the keyboard, didn't he?
 
Quote from: delshay;589815
if you ground the heatsink image seems a little bit sharper as lease here on my system.
 
the same appiles here too on my test sound card,background noise is reduced.
 
Perhaps't that's why I listen AmigaAmp so well....
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Retrofan on November 06, 2010, 11:05:15 AM
My idea is good, but it has a problem: the accelerator is outside the sheilding, so you have to cool it with it's own fan. In fact, if you want the wind-tunnel effect but don't want the sheilding you could do like this:
You put a fan where the RF modulator was,
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_fdR0Byi9CIY/TGW_0hnrMbI/AAAAAAAAAUE/qHQOW-bDm4A/s640/13082010756.JPG)
but as I see it you have to close the grill in the upper part of the Amiga so the air only could go out for example with holes on the trapdoor.
Something similar to this:
(http://www.commodoreusa.net/i//Assem1-11.jpg)
(http://www.commodoreusa.net/i//Assem1-12.jpg)
 
You could do the same with the sheilding on with the fan on the rf place, and only you would have to cover the upper part of the sheilding leaving a place somewhere to let the air going out. With this way I believe I should have the coolest Indivision of all.
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Franko on November 06, 2010, 11:36:56 AM
@ Retrofan

Don't take this the wrong way... but your obsessed and totally nuts ... :)

I thought I was a bamstick and obsessive about my miggies, but WHY this crusade to fit a fan to a desktop A1200 ???

I can't quite get my head round why your going to all this bother for something that doesn't need done in the first place... :confused:

WHY... :)
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Retrofan on November 06, 2010, 11:46:33 AM
Just because I've been told the Indivision gets very hot and I've been keeping the sheilding on even with an internal cd and a subway. I've heard the flicker fixer can be put with the sheilding, and I won't like to take it out now, but don't want to fry the Scandoubler.
Title: Re: Sheilding on/off
Post by: Franko on November 06, 2010, 12:17:55 PM
Quote from: Retrofan;589854
Just because I've been told the Indivision gets very hot and I've been keeping the sheilding on even with an internal cd and a subway. I've heard the flicker fixer can be put with the sheilding, and I won't like to take it out now, but don't want to fry the Scandoubler.


I see now... didn't realize you were going to fit the Indivision, the fan may help, but I'd still get rid of the shielding it only real purpose was because of the laws regarding radio interference, anyway best of luck with whatever you decide... :)