Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: orb85750 on October 29, 2010, 08:35:16 PM
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and what about earlier versions: 1.x and 2.x ?
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Things are not as easy as they seem:
Amiga Inc. claimed to inherit the 1.0 thru 3.1 back from Gateway. Wheter this is true, has been a subject of discussion a long time before. The results are inconclusive, there are no proofs of anything, only claims.
Amiga Inc. partnered with Haage & Partner to produce 3.5 and later 3.9. Basically all the funding and developer effort was managed by Haage & Partner, who signed a contract in which Amiga Inc could buy back the 3.5/3.9 code which was based on 3.1. Fact is Amiga Inc. never bought back the 3.5/3.9 code.
Then as part of these more recent lame trials between Amiga Inc. and Hyperion, Amiga inc. agreed to grant Hyperion exclusive worldwide distributor rights for AmigaOS 3.1
So to sum up:
1.Amiga Inc. claims to have legally inherited all AmigaOS development upto 3.1
2.Haage & Partner + Amiga Inc (That is, in the exclusive case of Amiga Inc, if you believe point 1 is true) both own 3.5/3.9
3.Amiga Inc granted Hyperion a worldwide exclusive distribution rights for AmigaOS 3.1 (The validity of this right depends on point 1)
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Things are not as easy as they seem:
Amiga Inc. claimed to inherit the 1.0 thru 3.1 back from Gateway. Wheter this is true, has been a subject of discussion a long time before. The results are inconclusive, there are no proofs of anything, only claims.
Amiga Inc. partnered with Haage & Partner to produce 3.5 and later 3.9. Basically all the funding and developer effort was managed by Haage & Partner, who signed a contract in which Amiga Inc could buy back the 3.5/3.9 code which was based on 3.1. Fact is Amiga Inc. never bought back the 3.5/3.9 code.
Then as part of these more recent lame trials between Amiga Inc. and Hyperion, Amiga inc. agreed to grant Hyperion exclusive worldwide distributor rights for AmigaOS 3.1
So to sum up:
1.Amiga Inc. claims to have legally inherited all AmigaOS development upto 3.1
2.Haage & Partner + Amiga Inc (That is, in the exclusive case of Amiga Inc, if you believe point 1 is true) both own 3.5/3.9
3.Amiga Inc granted Hyperion a worldwide exclusive distribution rights for AmigaOS 3.1 (The validity of this right depends on point 1)
I wonder how we could get your work on Boing Bag 3 and 4 into official updates...
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I wonder how we could get your work on Boing Bag 3 and 4 into official updates...
I'm not sure that they see anything related to OS3.x as being beneficial to themselves.
It seems like the abandoned product that still competes with the current one.
Making OS3.x better only hurts OS4 sales.
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Making OS3.x better only hurts OS4 sales.
Seeing that OS3.x runs on real Amigas with 680x0 CPUs and only OS4.0 runs on PPC enhanced Amigas, I don't think this statement is entirely true. I can't justify the cost of a PPC accelerator for my 1200 or 4000 and have no interest in the newer pseudo-Amigas needed for OS4.1 so... I'll never be using OS4.x so there's no competition for people like me who see Amigas just as a retro hobby and use more mainstream modern machines and OSes for regular everyday computing.
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It is not really that important to be "Official".
We can extend the life of 3.9 as much as we can, but then there is no future in it, and every step we go forward is getting more difficult and slow.
What is more important than extending the life of 3.9 with huge coding efforts, is to empower AROS guys to deliver an open, modern and freely available 68k operating system for our beloved Classics.
For this, I keep my fingers crossed, my hopes high, and pray for them every night before I go to bed. ;)
PS: But, just in case AROS devs cant deliver, I will still try to keep pushing 3.9 forward.
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Seeing that OS3.x runs on real Amigas with 680x0 CPUs and only OS4.0 runs on PPC enhanced Amigas, I don't think this statement is entirely true.
I meant it from the viewpoint of someone selling OS4. Making OS3 more usable does nothing to promote an OS4 sale.
Frustration with OS3.x however, doesn't hurt OS4 sales at all.
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It is not really that important to be "Official".
We can extend the life of 3.9 as much as we can, but then there is no future in it, and every step we go forward is getting more difficult and slow.
What is more important than extending the life of 3.9 with huge coding efforts, is to empower AROS guys to deliver an open modern and freely available 68k operating system for our beloved Classics.
For this, I keep my fingers crossed, my hopes high, and pray for them every night before I go to bed. ;)
PS: But, just in case AROS devs cant deliver, I will still try to keep pushing 3.9 forward.
You think AROS will run fast enough on 68K?
Hmmm... what I'd like to see is a Coldfire-based replacement board for 68K classics that could run OS 3.9 or/and AROS(68060 is 88 MIPS@66 MHz, Coldfire is 400 MIPS@233 MHz) that would include a more powerful gfx chip and faster bus/memory + FPGA for 68k custom chips. Atari Firebee shows the way(it costs 650 euros, pricey, but somewhat still acceptable).
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what I'd like to see is a Coldfire-based replacement board for 68K classics that could run OS 3.9
Coldfire is not compatible with the Amiga. The End.
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Coldfire is not compatible with the Amiga. The End.
Not out of the box, it isn't... but with some alterations to the amiga os, it could be. Same with TOS/MiNT on Firebee.
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It is not possible to edit all 50,000 Amiga apps and convert them from Motorola 680x0 asm into coldfire asm. Therefore Coldfire is not compatible. Final Answer.
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Coldfire is not compatible with the Amiga. The End.
And if anyone wants to know why it won't work.... I'm done my homework on the subject. There's a small number of instructions that exist on both 68K and Coldfire, but each executes them differently. It's possible to trap 68K instructions that are invalid for coldfire and "reroute" them. Using this trick make the two about 99.8% compatible. Trouble is these other instructions are not invalid, can't be trapped and will cash Amiga code because of the way they operate. Also there's an issue with I/O differences.
One suggestion I had for the coldfire dev group back in the day was to run dual processors. One to prescreen code, make changes if necessary then feed the corrected code to the second processor. Back then coldfires were not very fast so basically doing JIT compiling would have killed performance.
These days I'm thinking porting one of the Amiga like OS's to cheap dual core 1GHZ ARM processors would be a fun project. Picture this... Core_1 doing JIT recompiling and feeding Core_2 that's running a "softcore 68K" emulation. Piece of cake, I should have all that done in what.... two weeks? :)
Plaz
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I meant it from the viewpoint of someone selling OS4. Making OS3 more usable does nothing to promote an OS4 sale.
Frustration with OS3.x however, doesn't hurt OS4 sales at all.
Costs of A4000 PPC cards make x1000 look positively a bargain so the two are mutually exclusive. Not that anything designed after CD32/A4000T is actually an 'Amiga' though, all the newer stuff are just OS4 compatible boxes to me.
As for the stuff about Amiga Inc may/may not even own KS and Workbench then surely Gateway's current holder will step up and claim their property. If Amiga Inc don't actually own KS/WB then Cloanto are royally screwed as are the OS4 producers.
Not that I really care any more, NONE of them have inched any further than an asthmatic snail superglued to the pavement in moving towards funding a REAL Amiga replacement since the last A4000/A1200/CD32 was manufactured anyway so screw them all really. Like I always said just release KS/WB 0.9-3.1 into public domain and leave the beautiful legacy of Amiga to RIP in the hands of the retro fans who love and cherish what was the worlds most advanced machine architecture light years ahead of every other machine on launch day.
(A1000 in 85/86 that is)
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I'd be interested to find out who owns the right to the kickstarts..
I know (or think, which is almost better!) that Cloanto has permission to distribute them, but I believe they can't distribute a non-tweaked ROM.
But, who owns the rights to the ROMs (or the code in them I suppose)?
Is that included in the OS rights?
desiv
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It is not possible to edit all 50,000 Amiga apps and convert them from Motorola 680x0 asm into coldfire asm. Therefore Coldfire is not compatible. Final Answer.
Not according to Atari Coldfire team...
[SIZE=-1]- CPU 266 MHz The main component of the MCF5474 is a ColdFire V4e Core. It is very similar to the 680x0 CPU family, but not fully compatible. Basically, some complex or rarely used instructions and addressing modes have been removed. Thus the ColdFire CPU is more simple and cheaper than any 680x0 CPU, while being a lot faster. With an additional lightweight software layer, the ColdFire CPU can be made compatible with existing 680x0 programs. [/SIZE]
They intend to run TOS/FreeMiNT on it so it is possible.
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Originally Posted by ChaosLord (http://www.amiga.org/forums/web/buttons/viewpost.gif) (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?p=588045#post588045)
It is not possible to edit all 50,000 Amiga apps and convert them from Motorola 680x0 asm into coldfire asm. Therefore Coldfire is not compatible. Final Answer.
Not according to Atari Coldfire team...
Not the first time Atari ST users were wrong about something. :D
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Not the first time Atari ST users were wrong about something. :D
:)... but they sure got that Firebee thingy right. I'd love to have one like those to run OS 3.x... Good thing about Firebee is that you can use it as a PCI card in any PC or a standalone motherboard. It is a nice project.
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and what about earlier versions: 1.x and 2.x ?
"Does Hyperion own the rights to OS 3.1, 3.5, 3.9, and what about earlier versions: 1.x and 2.x ?"
No.
They don't.
They don't even own 4.0 or 4.1.x.
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=587420&postcount=159
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:)... but they sure got that Firebee thingy right. I'd love to have one like those to run OS 3.x... Good thing about Firebee is that you can use it as a PCI card in any PC or a standalone motherboard. It is a nice project.
Wow, why can't we be cool and do this for 68K Amiga:
http://www.atarimusic.net/index.php/component/content/article/37-fp-rokstories/66-atari-firebee-an-atari-coldfire-clone-built-for-music
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"Does Hyperion own the rights to OS 3.1, 3.5, 3.9, and what about earlier versions: 1.x and 2.x ?"
No.
They don't.
They don't even own 4.0 or 4.1.x.
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=587420&postcount=159
I don't understand the scenario under which the OS was not properly transferred to AInc in the first place. What?
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I don't understand the scenario under which the OS was not properly transferred to AInc in the first place. What?
Well basicly many former CBM/escom greedy marketing guys created a bunch of empty shells, better known over here, as ghost companies, to resell the remaining assets of CBM/Escom. In a certain point in time, they claimed they had legally acquired all the Amiga´s remaining IP. And suddenly Amiga Inc appeared shouting they own those IPs.
There is not a single proof that any of such IP was transferred.
It really seems that the real Amiga IP owner, now probably some big dog that absorved Gateway, doesnt give a rat ass about the Amiga both as a brandname, and regarding the IP it holds.
So whoever shouts louder now and has plenty of money to spend with lawyers can claim that brandname and IP.
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Well basicly many former CBM/escom greedy marketing guys created a bunch of empty shells, better known over here, as ghost companies, to resell the remaining assets of CBM/Escom. In a certain point in time, they claimed they had legally acquired all the Amiga´s remaining IP. And suddenly Amiga Inc appeared shouting they own those IPs.
Where is this possible scenario documented? And if it's really so unclear who owns the OS, then why is Cloanto paying, and others (such as Natami) paying attention to copyrights?
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Where is this possible scenario documented? And if it's really so unclear who owns the OS, then why is Cloanto paying, and others (such as Natami) paying attention to copyrights?
Where?
It is history, just take a look at it, use google, or the wayback machine. Or ask an old enough really involved Amiga user.
Why?
Simple, they have a business to run, and as such they dont want to have troubles with lawyers, they only want to make money with products, not with lawyers.
Besides, Cloanto has a license way before the dreaded Amiga Inc. days.
No one, that is expecting to have a business these days, wants to risk troubles with their corporative image.
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Where?
It is history, just take a look at it, use google, or the wayback machine. Or ask an old enough really involved Amiga user.
Why?
Simple, they have a business to run, and as such they dont want to have troubles with lawyers, they only want to make money with products, not with lawyers.
Besides, Cloanto has a license way before the dreaded Amiga Inc. days.
No one, that is expecting to have a business these days, wants to risk troubles with their corporative image.
You are telling me to use Google because you don't know where such a history exists? (That is a question, not a statement.) Also, it seems that repeatedly paying somebody for something that they don't actually own is even worse than dealing with lawyers. And dealing with Amiga Inc.? -- well, you be the judge of that.
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You are telling me to use Google because you don't know where such a history exists? (That is a question, not a statement.) Also, it seems that repeatedly paying somebody for something that they don't actually own is even worse than dealing with lawyers. And dealing with Amiga Inc.? -- well, you be the judge of that.
I wont try to change your views. I not only suggested google (There is also http://www.amiga.com old executive updates, Amino, Itec, Gateway, and Escom bankrupcy and lot more entities involved in this history. Plus ask an old enough Amiga user that was really living those times, and they will tell you), but then if you are keen on believing something else, it is of no use for me to try to tell you otherwise, so that you understand the story is not so simple and straightforward.
So really if you want to know, investigate for yourself, with an open mind.
Bottomline, if you think Amiga Inc. is/was the legit owner of the Amiga IP/brandname, then it is upto you. :)
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So far, everything I've found online indicates that the full Amiga IP was transferred from Escom to Gateway, then from Gateway to Amino. Maybe I don't know where to look for the dirty details indicating ambiguity with the overall OS ownership.
EDIT: I certainly have not made up my mind. My mind is open, but where specifically is some of the info to which you refer?
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The ambiguity is that there is no factual proof that the "full" IP was transferred to Amiga inc. There are only claims made by Amiga Inc (which of course are biased, being the interested party).
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The ambiguity is that there is no factual proof that the "full" IP was transferred to Amiga inc. There are only claims made by Amiga Inc (which of course are biased, being the interested party).
Absolutely, which Amiga Inc. were you guys refering to? The west coast or east coast corporation?
Who says Amiga Inc. owns anything? Bill M cEwen and you all trust him, right?
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Like I always said just release KS/WB 0.9-3.1 into public domain and leave the beautiful legacy of Amiga to RIP in the hands of the retro fans who love and cherish
Very optimistic view on what's left of *really* talented coders who could have brought OS3.1-OpenSource into a modern shape. I'm happy with my OS3.9 machines, working stable with very few "updates" (99% from the original OS3.5/3.9 developers). That's it. What followed was mostly a big bang of half-geared wannabe optimizations that renderd my machines unusable. If this is what you meant with "loving and cherishing retro" people fiddling around: No, thanks.
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@cha05e90: at least you are free to choose your best fit from a variety. not to speak of being left dependent on mercy of few spare time developers furtherly limited in what they do by a probably questionable buisness decisions. see olsen.
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It's possible to trap 68K instructions that are invalid for coldfire and "reroute" them. Using this trick make the two about 99.8% compatible. Trouble is these other instructions are not invalid, can't be trapped and will cash Amiga code because of the way they operate.
Coldfire has been demonstrated to work (I remember someone putting a video of the prototype being demoed here on AO). The problem is that with all the bits in place to make the Coldfire fully 68k compatible. It was, even at several hundred mhz, little quicker than an 040.
--edit--
Found the thread, here (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25337&highlight=Coldfire+video&page=2). The thumbnails (http://tdolphin.org/amikrak/amizaduszki2006.php) work, but the links to the vids are long gone, sorry :(
These days I'm thinking porting one of the Amiga like OS's to cheap dual core 1GHZ ARM processors would be a fun project. Picture this... Core_1 doing JIT recompiling and feeding Core_2 that's running a "softcore 68K" emulation. Piece of cake, I should have all that done in what.... two weeks? :)
Tbh given the relative performance of ARM processors, even just a single core A9 and have it run a full 68k jit would probably be quite a bit quicker than using any Coldfire.
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Coldfire has been demonstrated to work (I remember someone putting a video of the prototype being demoed here on AO). The problem is that with all the bits in place to make the Coldfire fully 68k compatible. It was, even at several hundred mhz, little quicker than an 040.
Tbh given the relative performance of ARM processors, even just a single core A9 and have it run a full 68k jit would probably be quite a bit quicker than using any Coldfire.
UAE on a QSD 8250 runs TBL/Starstruck perfectly.
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The ambiguity is that there is no factual proof that the "full" IP was transferred to Amiga inc. There are only claims made by Amiga Inc (which of course are biased, being the interested party).
It would seem very bizarre if Gateway (or someone else along the line) transferred the IP with the *exception* of the OS. That's an extraordinary claim -- requires extraordinary proof. Anyone?
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It would seem very bizarre if Gateway (or someone else along the line) transferred the IP with the *exception* of the OS. That's an extraordinary claim -- requires extraordinary proof. Anyone?
Is there any verifiable proof that Gateway transferred any IP at all to McEwen or his various shell companies?
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Is there any verifiable proof that Gateway transferred any IP at all to McEwen or his various shell companies?
Well, you might as well have asked: Is there any *proof* that the IP was transferred to Gateway in the first place? Of course the documents exist. Do you expect to find all such legal business documents on the internet?
So Gateway decided to hold onto the Amiga OS and kept it a secret? What are you saying?
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Well, you might as well have asked: Is there any *proof* that the IP was transferred to Gateway in the first place? Of course the documents exist. Do you expect to find all such legal business documents on the internet?
So Gateway decided to hold onto the Amiga OS and kept it a secret? What are you saying?
I'm not saying anything, I'm asking a question.
Put if you really want my opinion then I will say that McEwen has made many claims over the years and most have turned out to be lies.
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Well, you might as well have asked: Is there any *proof* that the IP was transferred to Gateway in the first place? Of course the documents exist. Do you expect to find all such legal business documents on the internet?
Isn't that more or less what you've demanded of others here though?
So Gateway decided to hold onto the Amiga OS and kept it a secret? What are you saying?
The question is which bits went where. The court docs state that Amiga.inc never had the 3.5/9 sources and that Haage and Partner refused to hand over their work (which apparently hadn't been paid for), so Hyperion had to go through Olaf rather than AI to get the 3.1 sources and work from there because they didn't apparently have them either.
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Isn't that more or less what you've demanded of others here though?
No, the implication is that Amiga Inc. has been fooling the entire community for years, including those that are paying them for OS? Such views are the ones that need to be backed with something other than opinion and speculation that the IP was not transferred to them along with the trademarks, etc.
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Isn't that more or less what you've demanded of others here though?
No, the implication is that Amiga Inc. has been fooling the entire community for years, including those that are paying them for OS? Such views are the ones that need to be backed with something other than opinion and speculation that the IP was not transferred to them along with the trademarks, etc.
Because there totally isn't precedent for that sort of thing happening within the alt OS community.
Zeta
Not to mention the T shirt scam and the claims for the better part of a year that OS4 was "on schedule and rocking"... McEwen has a very very dicey relationship with the truth and honesty.
The question is though, if McEwen had the IP as well as the trademark, why didn't they have the sourcecode? The court docs in the battle between hyperion and Amiga.inc show that Hyperion had to go to Olaf Barthal for the sourcecode for 3.1.
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No, the implication is that Amiga Inc. has been fooling the entire community for years, including those that are paying them for OS? Such views are the ones that need to be backed with something other than opinion and speculation that the IP was not transferred to them along with the trademarks, etc.
Well, it is a prooved fact that Amiga Inc. has been fooling the entire community. Do you at least know about the Coupon/T-shirt scam they made?
More than two hundred Amiga users were robbed, in that epic scheme designed exclusively by Amiga Inc.
Just ask, many of them are still probably lurking in Amiga forums, and hopefully wont feel embarrassed enough to step in, and tell you how they were scammed by Amiga Inc when they thought they were doing something good for the future of the Amiga.
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Guys, those that need the OS for their current projects are being very, very careful to do so legally without stealing Amiga Inc IP. A bunch of gullible fools? I think not. Yes, McEwen has quite a history of dishonesty, but that's beside the point. T-shirts, hockey stadium, etc. are quite funny, but the craziest thing of all would be if Amiga Inc doesn't actually own the IP. That would dwarf everything else. Anything is possible in the world of Amiga, but c'mon. :-)
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Guys, those that need the OS for their current projects are being very, very careful to do so legally without stealing Amiga Inc IP. A bunch of gullible fools? I think not.
I'm sorry, have you even bothered to check out the litany of documented abuse of IP by amiga companies? They have been screwing each other over for the better part of a decade. Hell it's why half of the splits came about - companies all badmouthing each other and using their fanbase as foot soldiers in a PR war.
Lets start with a recent example: Elbox and their ripping off of the guy who wrote the Posieden USB stack.
Yes, McEwen has quite a history of dishonesty, but that's beside the point. T-shirts, hockey stadium, etc. are quite funny
You clearly have a very unusual definition of the term "funny".
, but the craziest thing of all would be if Amiga Inc doesn't actually own the IP.
The claim is that he licensed it from Gateway, not that he owns it. Now, if you're paying millions for the rights to use a name or a given OS, would it not occur to you to, oh I don't know, ask for a copy of the source code?
That would dwarf everything else. Anything is possible in the world of Amiga, but c'mon. :-)
No I'm pretty certain the death of commodore would still top it. But it'd certainly come a close second.
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Guys, those that need the OS for their current projects are being very, very careful to do so legally without stealing Amiga Inc IP. A bunch of gullible fools? I think not. Yes, McEwen has quite a history of dishonesty, but that's beside the point. T-shirts, hockey stadium, etc. are quite funny, but the craziest thing of all would be if Amiga Inc doesn't actually own the IP. That would dwarf everything else. Anything is possible in the world of Amiga, but c'mon. :-)
I see your point, but then see it this way:
Does anyone know with certainty who owns the, lets call it original AmigaOS?
No, not really. But then, there is a company that is named Amiga Inc. that is the only one that is claiming that IP is theirs, and is even considering granting some licenses for a fee.
So, in the worst of scenarios, you pay money to that company for this license, and then if they really, legally dont own it, and somebody steps in as the legit owner, we can allways pledge that we were inocently fooled by Amiga Inc, but that we acted in good will by buying those alledged rights.
So, no charges may be filled against us, only an order to cease and desist from the rightfull owner, and maybe even an offer from them for a real license.
So, it is not so stupid, you see, it is in fact, a good business tactic when you want to make businesses with IPs apparently no one is interested in enforcing/marketing them. At the end, the company granting those licenses takes the blame, and not the one that was "fooled" into this scheme.
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Well basicly many former CBM/escom greedy marketing guys created a bunch of empty shells [...] It really seems that the real Amiga IP owner, now probably some big dog that absorved Gateway
I'm sorry, but perhaps you should "use google or the wayback machine or ask an old enough really involved Amiga user" yourself.
German company Escom bought the remainders of Commodore in April 1995. They soon got into a legal battle with another German company (VillageTronic, IIRC - I think the argument was about VT distributing 3.1 Kickstart ROMs). In 1996, Escom went bancrupt.
In July 1997, a German appeals court ruled in the Escom-VillageTronic litigation, that the (long defunct) Escom had not provided evidence that they actually bought the AmigaOS copyrights from Commodore, not just the trademarks and patents. Escom's bancruptcy trustee tried to repair the situation by creating new contracts between two (defunct) Commodore entities and Escom - and signing them for all three parties. He was entitled to sign contracts for Commodore under certain circumstances, but if he was entitled to sign this particular contract in the name of Commodore is another unanswered question.
That's the story about the open questions regarding AmigaOS ownership - we don't know if Escom ever owned the copyrights, so we don't know if any of their successors ever owned them. Anything else (hello Gulliver) is more or less daydreaming or wishful thinking. Of course there's no proof that "Amiga Inc ever acquired AmigaOS rights from Gateway", because we never saw the contracts between Amiga Inc. and Gateway.
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But then, there is a company that is named Amiga Inc. that is the only one that is claiming that IP is theirs, and is even considering granting some licenses for a fee.
Amiga Inc. do indeed claim to own the IP, but they actually gave up the idea of licensing it to a third party: According to the settlement between Amiga and Hyperion, the latter got the exclusive right to license AmigaOS to third parties.
Btw., another open question is what the settlement actually refers to: "the product named AmigaOS 3.1", or "AmigaOS up to version 3.1". But I'm sure you got that covered in your lengthy and detailed analysis of the situation regarding AmigaOS 3.
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You know, it would be really nice to just clean-room reimplement the whole damn thing and sidestep this entire disgraceful corporate toddler fight. Maybe I'm just talking crazy talk, but it doesn't seem like it'd be that hard; the documentation in the ROM Kernel Reference Manual, coupled with the fact that the whole OS is based around application reuse of what other OSes would consider to be OS-internal structures and code, gives a remarkably clear window into how the system works without even needing to get into disassemblies of Kickstart binaries.
(P.S. I know someone's going to mention AROS, but no. Whatever its other merits, it has exactly one 68k port, which is deprecated and not even for the Amiga, and one PPC port, which seems to require an existing Linux install. It might be an Amiga-inspired or Amiga-based operating system, but it's not an Amiga operating system.)
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@cgutjahr
+1
+1
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(P.S. I know someone's going to mention AROS, but no. Whatever its other merits, it has exactly one 68k port, which is deprecated and not even for the Amiga, and one PPC port, which seems to require an existing Linux install. It might be an Amiga-inspired or Amiga-based operating system, but it's not an Amiga operating system.)
FYI, it has a native non-Linux hosted x86 port and in the last couple of weeks, the native 68k Amiga port has finally been revived and is making serious steps forward.
The first bounty was assigned and has a delivery date of around December if I remember correctly.
I'd expect a usable native 68k Aros in the next 6 months to a year if they keep this pace.
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I'm sorry, but perhaps you should "use google or the wayback machine or ask an old enough really involved Amiga user" yourself.
German company Escom bought the remainders of Commodore in April 1995. They soon got into a legal battle with another German company (VillageTronic, IIRC - I think the argument was about VT distributing 3.1 Kickstart ROMs). In 1996, Escom went bancrupt.
In July 1997, a German appeals court ruled in the Escom-VillageTronic litigation, that the (long defunct) Escom had not provided evidence that they actually bought the AmigaOS copyrights from Commodore, not just the trademarks and patents. Escom's bancruptcy trustee tried to repair the situation by creating new contracts between two (defunct) Commodore entities and Escom - and signing them for all three parties. He was entitled to sign contracts for Commodore under certain circumstances, but if he was entitled to sign this particular contract in the name of Commodore is another unanswered question.
That's the story about the open questions regarding AmigaOS ownership - we don't know if Escom ever owned the copyrights, so we don't know if any of their successors ever owned them. Anything else (hello Gulliver) is more or less daydreaming or wishful thinking. Of course there's no proof that "Amiga Inc ever acquired AmigaOS rights from Gateway", because we never saw the contracts between Amiga Inc. and Gateway.
Are you saying that *nobody* knows whether Escom owned the copyrights in the end? And if they did not, then ??????? Is Amiga OS public domain? (my wishful thinking)
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I'm sorry, but perhaps you should "use google or the wayback machine or ask an old enough really involved Amiga user" yourself.
Anything else (hello Gulliver) is more or less daydreaming or wishful thinking.
But I'm sure you got that covered in your lengthy and detailed analysis of the situation regarding AmigaOS 3.
@cgutjahr
Hello
Why do I feel this thread turned into something personal for you? :)
Just chill, this is just (or I hoped) a friendly conversation. If you have another view, then it is okay with me. I never said I knew everything there is to know, I just have my own view about the subject, much like you do have your own. :)
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I see your point, but then see it this way:
Does anyone know with certainty who owns the, lets call it original AmigaOS?
No, not really. But then, there is a company that is named Amiga Inc. that is the only one that is claiming that IP is theirs, and is even considering granting some licenses for a fee.
So, in the worst of scenarios, you pay money to that company for this license, and then if they really, legally dont own it, and somebody steps in as the legit owner, we can allways pledge that we were inocently fooled by Amiga Inc, but that we acted in good will by buying those alledged rights.
So, no charges may be filled against us, only an order to cease and desist from the rightfull owner, and maybe even an offer from them for a real license.
So, it is not so stupid, you see, it is in fact, a good business tactic when you want to make businesses with IPs apparently no one is interested in enforcing/marketing them. At the end, the company granting those licenses takes the blame, and not the one that was "fooled" into this scheme.
Yes - plausible point. For if Amiga Inc. somehow doesn't own it, I suppose that someone (other than any of us) does own it, so respecting copyrights is probably sensible even in this case.
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FYI, it has a native non-Linux hosted x86 port and in the last couple of weeks, the native 68k Amiga port has finally been revived and is making serious steps forward.
Uh, "native x86 port" is kind of missing the point, when the Amiga has never used x86 in any form. I mean, again, good for them, but that doesn't help anybody with an Amiga. The Amiga 68k port is good news, though; even for those of us not particularily interested in AROS, an open Kickstart would be a huge step towards getting past this stupid corporate pissing contest.
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Heh, the further back this goes, the more screwed up it appears to become.
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And if anyone wants to know why it won't work.... I'm done my homework on the subject. There's a small number of instructions that exist on both 68K and Coldfire, but each executes them differently. It's possible to trap 68K instructions that are invalid for coldfire and "reroute" them. Using this trick make the two about 99.8% compatible. Trouble is these other instructions are not invalid, can't be trapped and will cash Amiga code because of the way they operate. Also there's an issue with I/O differences.
One suggestion I had for the coldfire dev group back in the day was to run dual processors. One to prescreen code, make changes if necessary then feed the corrected code to the second processor. Back then coldfires were not very fast so basically doing JIT compiling would have killed performance.
These days I'm thinking porting one of the Amiga like OS's to cheap dual core 1GHZ ARM processors would be a fun project. Picture this... Core_1 doing JIT recompiling and feeding Core_2 that's running a "softcore 68K" emulation. Piece of cake, I should have all that done in what.... two weeks? :)
Plaz
I think the Atari Coldfire developers will disagree with you. They have a Coldifre processor running just fine and have already produced hardware. See: http://acp.atari.org
And who said 99.8% compatibility isn't "good enough"? All the major operating systems have dropped a slight bit of compatibility with older software as time progressed. That's true with Windows, Linux, OSX, etc.....as well as with AmigaOS. The only thing that will satisfy the irrational people here who insist on 100% compatibility is a time machine to take them back to 1985. I would welcome ANY OS that has 99.8% compatibility with software written for previous versions.
It's funny how the detractors here say that Coldfire can't be done yet they ignore the fact that an entire Amiga, nay several Amigas, can be fully emulated on a processor as alien as an x86 with better than 99.9% compatibility. I for one can live without those few programs in that .1-.2% range. And why couldn't UAE be ported to run on a Coldfire processor? That's a rhetorical question......
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Coldfire has been demonstrated to work (I remember someone putting a video of the prototype being demoed here on AO).
Oh yes, it will work. But eventually it will run into a bit of 1.x-3.x OS or legacy game code with one of these miss interpeded op codes and crash something. We should I suppose distinguish "working" from "completely stable" then.
Plaz
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I think the Atari Coldfire developers will disagree with you.
...[And who said 99.8% compatibility isn't "good enough"?
They don't have to disagree with me. They just need to get a work around for those problem op codes. Perhaps classic Atari avoided them from the begining better than Amiga?
In many cases 99.8 might be good enough, but from my reading, a particular set of these codes are used in classic AOS (kickstart too.. can't recall now). There's probably ways around all this by rewritting bits of important libraries and softbooting to a problem free kickstart. But none so far have been able to work out all the bugs.
I'm hardly a detractor either. Years ago, I was really on the coldfire band wagon. Reseaching the CPU, working up hardware and I/O layouts, looking at ways to trap those trouble codes... but now with other options like soft cores, FPGA tech, and newer processors I don't know if it makes a much sense as it once did.
And why couldn't UAE be ported to run on a Coldfire processor? That's a rhetorical question......
I think it could since you have alot of control over rewritting all the peices involved unlike constraints that have to be overcome in making a plug in compatible with classic hardware.
Plaz
Edit: botched quote
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You know, it would be really nice to just clean-room reimplement
That's why minimig and minimi AGA are such cool thing and I hopw they see a lot more development.
Plaz
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That's why minimig and minimi AGA are such cool thing and I hopw they see a lot more development.
Plaz
I going to hold out for a Natami, but for all the same reasons!
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Every new version of Kickstart and Workbench broke things.
Some games can't even deal with an external floppy or fast RAM.
Our 040 and 060 systems aren't even 100% compatible. Remember those libraries we have to put on the system to get them to boot correctly?
100% compatibility wasn't a deal breaker when the platform was actually evolving.
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Uh, "native x86 port" is kind of missing the point, when the Amiga has never used x86 in any form. I mean, again, good for them, but that doesn't help anybody with an Amiga. The Amiga 68k port is good news, though; even for those of us not particularily interested in AROS, an open Kickstart would be a huge step towards getting past this stupid corporate pissing contest.
Actually, AROS runs on x86, x86_64 and ppc (sam440ep and efika) natitvely in addition to the various hosted flavors. Also, just because an architecture isnt binary compatible doesnt mean os3.x (or any amiga os system) cant benefit from AROS, it can, and has. The 68k port/kickstart replacement looks very cool though as well and I was pleasantly surprised to see Toni Wilan now working on AROS in lou of this.... AROS Devl-ML has been pretty active in the 68k regards lately, interesting reading :)
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It isn't binary compatible yet.
Once we can start mixing and matching Aros and OS3.x it will get very interesting.
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You know, it would be really nice to just clean-room reimplement the whole damn thing and sidestep this entire disgraceful corporate toddler fight. Maybe I'm just talking crazy talk, but it doesn't seem like it'd be that hard; the documentation in the ROM Kernel Reference Manual, coupled with the fact that the whole OS is based around application reuse of what other OSes would consider to be OS-internal structures and code, gives a remarkably clear window into how the system works without even needing to get into disassemblies of Kickstart binaries.
Clean-room reimplementation? Well, then MorphOS is exactly what you are asking for!
:)
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@takemehomegrandma
No it isn't, replacing one locked up system with another locked up system is not what is being asked for.
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Clean-room reimplementation? Well, then MorphOS is exactly what you are asking for!
Uh, well, I was thinking more of an open-source effort so that we could get away from this stupid "who's allowed to use the software" bitchfest. Having a proprietary third-party OS (which, emulation aside, isn't even for 68k Amigas) that's a reimplementation of a proprietary first-party OS isn't a step forward so much as a step sideways.
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Clean-room reimplementation? Well, then MorphOS is exactly what you are asking for!:)
Yep, technically correct - but they want "open sources". But - as far as I understood - AROS has the same approach (minus 68k compability), hasn't it?
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It isn't binary compatible yet.
Once we can start mixing and matching Aros and OS3.x it will get very interesting.
Actually, I was referring the the x86 version when I say not binary compatible. 68k AROS port isn't even finished yet so it's a bit premature to decide how compatible it is or isnt.
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Uh, well, I was thinking more of an open-source effort so that we could get away from this stupid "who's allowed to use the software" bitchfest. Having a proprietary third-party OS (which, emulation aside, isn't even for 68k Amigas) that's a reimplementation of a proprietary first-party OS isn't a step forward so much as a step sideways.
OK, so your point was merely yet another plea for open source, your talk about "clean-room reimplementation" made me miss that...
However, MorphOS is completely free from all Amiga sources, trade marks and other IP BS, and all problems relating to that! It's a complete clean-room reimplementation of Amiga OS 3.1 (with a truckload of new features added to that) so nobody from Amiga Inc (or anyone unknown from the past suddenly appearing with a fresh law suit) can demand a handing over of the sources, a piece of the pie, or power over decision making, hence The MorphOS Team are in a much better position than Hyperion. In fact, I don't envy Hyperion at all, they are in a terrible position. But they made their own bed, and they certainly won't get any sympathies from me.
And frankly, having much better Amiga compatibility, more features, better specs, better performance, and all the big Amiga standards integrated into the OS, than both OS4 and AROS is certainly much more important to me than open sources. But I guess our priorities are different...
MorphOS might be a step sideways (big enough to step out of Amiga Inc's zone of control), but then followed by a giant leap forward!
:)
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Yep, technically correct - but they want "open sources".
Yes I got that now! :)
But why start all over with a clean slate, making an "AROS 2", when there is already an "AROS 1" you could work with?
AROS has been here even longer than MorphOS, but look how "far" it got in comparison. I don't think open source is the answer if you want real progress in the tiny Amiga community. And whatever momentum AROS has, an "AROS 2" effort would have only a fraction of that. It wouldn't go anywhere.
But - as far as I understood - AROS has the same approach (minus 68k compability), hasn't it?
Well, AROS is certainly a clean-room reimplementation, but AFAIK its currently not binary compatible (even if recompiled in its current state for 68k). Or am I wrong in this?
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Yes I got that now! :)
Well, AROS is certainly a clean-room reimplementation, but AFAIK its currently not binary compatible (even if recompiled in its current state for 68k). Or am I wrong in this?
Yes, but I don't see why it is so important that AROS is not binary compatible at this very moment. People are hard at work to get this going. AFAWK no technical reasons are there why we can't get it going; binary compatibility has always been a serious consideration when technical decisions about AROS have been made. This has even lead to some people start the AnubisOS project because they found that this binary compatibility was holding AROS back.
greets,
Staf.
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Well, AROS is certainly a clean-room reimplementation, but AFAIK its currently not binary compatible (even if recompiled in its current state for 68k). Or am I wrong in this?
I cant answer that question accurately (not sure many can), but work on kickstart replacement/68k aros has been powering forward lately,.... the dev-ml has had some interesting reading. If Im not mistaken the bounty ends sometime in December, so it can't be too long until we all find the answer to that question :-) Im sure initially 68k binary compatibilty will be low at best, but given some time it should improve. A nice side effect from this for AROS is that it should help improve api compatibility as well for other architectures. Each to thier own and whatnot, but personally Im quite excited about what the 68k aros/kickstart replacement can bring to the table for not only AROS, but amiga in general.
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However, MorphOS is completely free from all Amiga sources, trade marks and other IP BS, and all problems relating to that
No it isn't, it is filled with trade marks and other IP BS, and has all the problems relating to that. Who cares if it doesn't have Amiga sources in it, it' just as much out of reach as AmigaOS is, so it really doesn't make one bit of difference.
But, thanks again for living up to my expectations of you as a MorphOS zealot.
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No it isn't, it is filled with trade marks and other IP BS, and has all the problems relating to that. Who cares if it doesn't have Amiga sources in it, it' just as much our of reach as AmigaOS is, so it really doesn't make one bit of difference.
But, thanks again for living up to my expectations of you as a MorphOS zealot.
Sure, MorphOS is a proprietary OS, but there are certainly no Amiga trade marks, no Amiga sources or no other Amiga IP whatsoever involved in MorphOS.
MorphOS will be completely unaffected when Pluritas auctions off the Amiga IP.
OS4 won't be unaffected, due to the facts I mentioned earlier in this thread.
AROS will not be affected either, but it will also still not be close to be as usable as neither of the two others. MorphOS is Amiga done right! AROS may be a nice hobby for the involved developers, but from a users point of view, it's stumbling in MorphOS footsteps.
Call me "zealot" as much as you like if that makes you feel better; It won't change a thing though!
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So? Are you dense or something?
As I see it, you jump to any occation to gloat about how brilliant you think MorphOS is, but you know what? We understood that _years_ ago. You sig already says it. All the stuff you post is completely redundant, really.
*plonk*
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Oh yes, it will work. But eventually it will run into a bit of 1.x-3.x OS or legacy game code with one of these miss interpeded op codes and crash something. We should I suppose distinguish "working" from "completely stable" then.
Plaz
And this is different to the situation faced anyone who has ever owned an 020+ amiga how, exactly? With each successive update of the 68k line, there has been differences, by the 040 they were so great that specific libraries had to be included in AmigaOS to deal with the compatibility issues.
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Sure, MorphOS is a proprietary OS, but there are certainly no Amiga trade marks, no Amiga sources or no other Amiga IP whatsoever involved in MorphOS.
So? It's not tied to this stupid rights-fight, but it's still tied to one rights-holder, so it's entirely possible for it to get into this kind of trouble. And it's still incompatible with non-PPC Amigas, which means people like me, with neither the money nor the inclination to move into the PPC country club or slap a boing-ball sticker on a Macintosh and pretend it's an Amiga, are shit out of luck.
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And it's still incompatible with non-PPC Amigas, which means people like me, with neither the money nor the inclination to move into the PPC country club or slap a boing-ball sticker on a Macintosh and pretend it's an Amiga, are shit out of luck.
I'd say you're in luck that it's not compatible. Trying to run such an "NG" Amiga OS on an '030 might just drive you out the window. I've watched web pages take over a full minute to load on an '030, and that's running OS 3.1!
..and if you're not into playing pretend, that whole blue butterfly thing just won't work for you.
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This is true, and it would be silly to act like even careful coding will bring an 030 box up to the computing power of a modern x86 machine (although the way Microsoft keeps amping up their minimum OS specs, you never know :rolleyes:) Still, I don't like and frankly don't accept the notion that 68k machines are a dead-end and either PPC/MorphOS or x86/AROS are the one true "new future" of the Amiga. (I'm not going to begrudge those systems their development, although it still baffles me how certain people can claim that being free of the Amiga-rights Gordian knot is as good as being free software, but I don't like the idea that 68k machines should just be left by the wayside to rust :|)
You can still do a lot with a 20-30MHz machine (to say nothing of the 150MHz NatAmi's claiming to achieve,) a programmer-friendly CPU like the 680x0, and a simple, open OS like the Kickstart/AmigaDOS combo. I'll never be playing Flash-based streaming video on my 2500, but that doesn't mean there's not room for an improved web browser, a more intuitive and integrated file manager than Workbench, or new games that don't require a PPC and AGA to run, and I wish more people realized that. At least AROS's open Kickstart replacement should provide some solid groundwork for any such future efforts.
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Still, I don't like and frankly don't accept the notion that 68k machines are a dead-end
Well, clearly they are. The arch, whilst successful and inspirational to other later arches (dragonball and coldfire), is a dead end.
and either PPC/MorphOS or x86/AROS are the one true "new future" of the Amiga.
I'm going to be blunt about this. Sit down, take a deep breath: Amiga has no future. PPC is as much a dead end arch (as far as the desktop goes) as 68k is. AROS will probably carry on thanks to it being OSS, but really, it's time as anything other than a hobby machine for people who grew up with it and those handful with a retro fetish is long gone.
but I don't like the idea that 68k machines should just be left by the wayside to rust
Who said they should? But perhaps rather than trying to break out "new future" Amigas, we should enjoy using them in the same way people enjoy classic cars.
a more intuitive and integrated file manager than Workbench
Opus Magellen 2, for when you absolutely positively have to file every m**********r on the drive, accept no substitute.
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I'm going to be blunt about this. Sit down, take a deep breath: Amiga has no future. PPC is as much a dead end arch (as far as the desktop goes) as 68k is. AROS will probably carry on thanks to it being OSS, but really, it's time as anything other than a hobby machine for people who grew up with it and those handful with a retro fetish is long gone.
I wasn't intending to imply otherwise. Barring some sort of divine intervention, it's never going to become a mainstream computing platform, but on the other hand, just because it's a "hobby machine" doesn't mean that new development efforts for it aren't worthwhile. I think there has to be some middle ground between a strictly preservationist "classic car" view and the "we'll just slap an Amiga nameplate on any computer hardware we can get" approach.
(But should some sort of divine intervention appear, you bet I'll be at the forefront of the new revolution ;) After all, even Linux started off as a "hobby project" of one Swede teaching himself assembler...)
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After all, even Linux started off as a "hobby project" of one Swede teaching himself assembler...)
Ooo, that's gonna piss the Finns off.
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I wasn't intending to imply otherwise. Barring some sort of divine intervention, it's never going to become a mainstream computing platform, but on the other hand, just because it's a "hobby machine" doesn't mean that new development efforts for it aren't worthwhile. I think there has to be some middle ground between a strictly preservationist "classic car" view and the "we'll just slap an Amiga nameplate on any computer hardware we can get" approach.
I'm not advocating a "strict preservationist" view. Classic cars look great in museums but even better on the open road. There is absolutely nothing stopping anyone writing new software for the classics nor would I for a second suggest that.
I think in line with that thinking, the MinimigAGA is a great piece of work to show to younger folks who never got to play with Amiga the first time around to get a taste of what the old kit was like, but without the fragility that comes with it being old kit.
I've made my views on AmigaNG clear a couple of times recently, so I see no need to repeat them.
@Tone007
Nice catch :roflmao:
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Ooo, that's gonna piss the Finns off.
Damnation! I knew I should have looked it up. I'm afraid that, growing up in northern Minnesota, the different Scandinavians groups all tend to run together in my mind :/
I think in line with that thinking, the MinimigAGA is a great piece of work to show to younger folks who never got to play with Amiga the first time around to get a taste of what the old kit was like, but without the fragility that comes with it being old kit.
Huh, and that's kind of exactly what I was saying, so I guess I misunderstood what you were saying. Well, wouldn't be my first time debating with someone over an issue we actually agree on :rolleyes:
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I'm going to be blunt about this. Sit down, take a deep breath: Amiga has no future. PPC is as much a dead end arch (as far as the desktop goes) as 68k is. AROS will probably carry on thanks to it being OSS, but really, it's time as anything other than a hobby machine for people who grew up with it and those handful with a retro fetish is long gone.
Who said they should? But perhaps rather than trying to break out "new future" Amigas, we should enjoy using them in the same way people enjoy classic cars.
In know you say that perhaps we should enjoy our Amigas the way people enjoy classic cars,which up to a point is fair comment, but in the same breath you say the Amiga has no future. If the Amiga has no future then why do Hyperion continue to develop OS 4.X, or A-eon develop the X1000, or why is the Natami or the Minimig still being developed, not to mention Aros and all the other people working on other projects continue to do so.
For the simple reason no matter what the size of the user base the Amiga is far from dead and will continue in one form or another for many years to come. If you have such a pessimistic outlook on the Amiga why do you bother with the Amiga at all.
Since Commodore went belly up in 94 and all the crap that has happened in the years since, the Amiga community and those still developing in one way or another for it have proven all those pessimists wrong. There can't be many other computer systems (if any) that so long after the last machine rolled of the production line still has folk developing for it and a never ending enthusiasm for it such as the Amiga community has shown.
I just find it difficult to understand why someone like yourself who's past has shown such a great passion for the Amiga feels now that the Amiga has no future at all...
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If the Amiga has no future then why do Hyperion continue to develop OS 4.X, or A-eon develop the X1000, or why is the Natami or the Minimig still being developed, not to mention Aros and all the other people working on other projects continue to do so.
You forgot to mention MorphOS. The Amiga had no future when Commodore died. Escom & Co were but shadows of a greater past. But since the Amiga has been dead for about 15 years there is absolutely no reason to give up now. Maybe computing isn´t that much about performance or market-share anymore. While the cool kids move to phones and tablets and have all their data in the cloud, there may be a time of diversity on the PC market again.
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I just find it difficult to understand why someone like yourself who's past has shown such a great passion for the Amiga feels now that the Amiga has no future at all...
Everything has a future, just some futures are brighter than others.
I look at it in terms of user base growth (or shrinkage) myself. I can't honestly say I see the NG Amiga user base growing significantly given the current hardware offerings. Some people bought SAMs when they were new and only slightly overpriced (compared to the X1000.) They had their taste of OS 4.1, and maybe some will be back for more, but I'd bet many of them will think twice (or just laugh) before spending what the X1000 is supposed to cost.
I personally got a bargain-basement AmigaOne and used it for a few weeks, and I can safely say my OS4.1 curiosity is satisfied and does not require further hardware.
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*sigh*, fine I'll bite.
In know you say that perhaps we should enjoy our Amigas the way people enjoy classic cars,which up to a point is fair comment, but in the same breath you say the Amiga has no future.
It doesn't. The legal situation surrounding Amiga has effectively killed it.
If the Amiga has no future then why do Hyperion continue to develop OS 4.X,
You don't want me to answer that.
or A-eon develop the X1000,
Vanity. (By Trevor's own admission I should add)
or why is the Natami or the Minimig still being developed,
Same reason you can buy kit car versions of AC- Cobras and a few select other cars. Some people want to taste what it was like to drive those old cars but don't want to futz around with having an older car. Apply the same reasoning to AROS as well
If you have such a pessimistic outlook on the Amiga why do you bother with the Amiga at all.
The platform may well be dead. But that doesn't stop me enjoying classic games.
Since Commodore went belly up in 94 and all the crap that has happened in the years since, the Amiga community and those still developing in one way or another for it have proven all those pessimists wrong.
Not really, the realists said that the Amiga is dead and that it wasn't coming back. They were correct. There have been a couple of attempts to kickstart it, the last one being the AmigaNG concept. Quite frankly the way it was handled by the principles all it managed to do was cause a war and rip off a whole bunch of people.
There can't be many other computer systems (if any) that so long after the last machine rolled of the production line still has folk developing for it and a never ending enthusiasm for it such as the Amiga community has shown.
Yeah, except practically every other home computer out there. Have you seen the C= community? It's several orders of magnitude larger than the Amigas and always has been. They however don't have all the legal shite or people at it's head ripping into other heads within the community claiming that theirs is the one true path and using the zealots as shock troops to deliver the message.
As for never ending enthusiasm. Perhaps if the community had been a little more pragmatic and level headed about things, Amiga.Inc wouldn't have been able to scam us and the Hyperion/MorphOS war that tore the heart out of us would have resulted in the community kicking the ego trippers asses as a point of principle. Oh yes, I went there.
I just find it difficult to understand why someone like yourself who's past has shown such a great passion for the Amiga feels now that the Amiga has no future at all...
I know you do, and perhaps I'm not explaining it right. But it doesn't change the fact that the Amiga is dead. Amiga as a platform being dead doesn't stop me from enjoying some of the games I grew up with, sharing my knowledge with people wanting to enjoy that too.
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by the 040 they were so great that specific libraries had to be included in AmigaOS to deal with the compatibility issues.
If coldfire could have been solved that easily, it already would have been. Unfortunately it ran a bit deeper.
Plaz
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If coldfire could have been solved that easily, it already would have been. Unfortunately it ran a bit deeper.
Who said it was easy? Regardless - Coldfire has been shown to work already. See the link I gave. Dragon was actually demonstrated live at that Amiga meeting.
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Amigas, we should enjoy using them in the same way people enjoy classic cars.
As one who owns Amigas and is restoring a classic car, I heartily agree. However a similar comparison can be drawn. As I restore my car, I'm not going to be using 40-50 year old technology to rebuild the brakes, fuel system, suspension, electrical, transmission.... most of us in the car hobby are using the latest tech to improve reliability, handling and saftey. What's under the hood won't be bone factory stock, but it will look and feel classic and will be better than original by miles. Classic Amigans hope for the same on their systems
Plaz
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Who said it was easy? Regardless - Coldfire has been shown to work already. See the link I gave. Dragon was actually demonstrated live at that Amiga meeting.
I'd have to guess it was demonstrated on a cafefully selected set of task to avoid known problems. It is too bad that a card wasn't at least released as a dev unit so some of us could have played around and mapped out the good and bad of it all.
Plaz
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I'd have to guess it was demonstrated on a cafefully selected set of task to avoid known problems. It is too bad that a card wasn't at least released as a dev unit so some of us could have played around and mapped out the good and bad of it all.
Quite possibly. But I guess that's the price you pay for using prototype hardware. It would have been nice though to have seen it move beyond that stage though.
Ho hum. :(
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It doesn't. The legal situation surrounding Amiga has effectively killed it.
It doesn't have to be that way. There are ways to get around this kind of thing, thankfully. While I may have my problems with both MorphOS and AROS, they have the right idea - skirt the whole thing by re-implementing the software cleanly. And Minimig and NatAmi are doing the same thing for the hardware end. The Amiga might have a future without the Amiga name on it, but it may still have a future.
I know you do, and perhaps I'm not explaining it right. But it doesn't change the fact that the Amiga is dead.
It seems to me that you're working off a different definition of "dead" than most of us. Dead as a mainstream computing platform, sure. Maybe even dead as a commercial product (though we'll see about that.) But it still has an active community (if not as active as the CBM 8-bitters) pouring time and effort into it, and I don't think you can call anything with that truly dead.
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It doesn't have to be that way. There are ways to get around this kind of thing, thankfully. While I may have my problems with both MorphOS and AROS, they have the right idea - skirt the whole thing by re-implementing the software cleanly. And Minimig and NatAmi are doing the same thing for the hardware end. The Amiga might have a future without the Amiga name on it, but it may still have a future.
Problem is, virtually no one knows about MorphOS or AROS, same too with minimig. Outside of the community (and to a lesser extent the Alt OS crowd), these projects might as well not exist. Even Amiga's brand name recognition is fading due to time.
There is a generation of kids who were born after the demise of C= who are now preparing to enter higher education (A levels etc), in a few short years they'll be graduating from universities. These kids have never seen or heard of Commodore, Amiga, or anything else of that era and likely never will in their lifetime.
The problem with the whole retro scene is that it's a fad. It'll pass, but more than that other, more modern kit will become the retro systems of choice as time goes on.
It seems to me that you're working off a different definition of "dead" than most of us. Dead as a mainstream computing platform, sure. Maybe even dead as a commercial product (though we'll see about that.)
No, that pretty much covers the definition I'm going on. Add to it the above as well.
But it still has an active community (if not as active as the CBM 8-bitters) pouring time and effort into it, and I don't think you can call anything with that truly dead.
Watch me. Amiga is dead. It has a great retro following I agree. One that'll likely continue to produce some really innovative stuff (see that guy with the ZX Spectrum running a twitter client at the vintage fair, for instance), but ultimately, it's finished.
Sorry if it offends, but that's how I see it.
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It always surprises me that there are still people that think there are millions out there waiting for the Amiga to rise from the dead. Can we just enjoy our hobby without trying to evoke the apocalypse?
It's just a bit of fun. I fire up my Amiga and I'm a kid again, I'm standing at the further shore of a revolution that is about to take place. Leave the evangelism to the evangelicals and live in the moment.
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I know literally hundreds of people just in my small mining village alone who are wating for the 100 hundred year Amiga revival.
Ummmmm wait I minute I don't know anyone interested in Amigas. I know people who remember them and always asking me why I am on this site in work, but thats it.
The Amstrad CPC has a bigger retro scene in the UK.
I have to agere with leander and others and have been saying the same thing for years. Amiga died even before 1994. it was in decline, PC had caught up and passed.
It is a hobby. I not switch any of my classics on for years. Not even use my copies of amiga forever anymore.
Been playing around with a registered copy of MorphOS recently and i am enjoying the experience.
Windows, linux and MacOS are ot goiny anywhere
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It always surprises me that there are still people that think there are millions out there waiting for the Amiga to rise from the dead. Can we just enjoy our hobby without trying to evoke the apocalypse?
It's just a bit of fun. I fire up my Amiga and I'm a kid again, I'm standing at the further shore of a revolution that is about to take place. Leave the evangelism to the evangelicals and live in the moment.
Well I thought we had heard the last of SodaStream, but it made a comeback this year after (maybe) 20 years... and who would have seen that one coming!
:banana:
SodaStream was a very popular and iconic soft drink's machine (and drink) of the 1980s for kids... which overnight suddenly disappeared off the market.
Edit: http://www.sodastream.co.uk/gbretail/VideoDemonstration.aspx
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Soda stream was awful. worked out much more expensive that buying bottled pop and never ever tasted better than a weak watered down version of the pop in question
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Maybe to certain folk the Amiga is nothing more than a hobby, but to me it has been and always will be my only main computer system for well over 20 years, simply put it does everything I need a computer to do :)
Now that I've found out from various folk here just what I need to get my Amiga online, all I have to do now is buy the netcard and this iMac that I've only had for a few months to see what the internet was all about can go to someone else who has a use for it... :)
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Maybe to certain folk the Amiga is nothing more than a hobby, but to me it has been and always will be my only main computer system for well over 20 years, simply put it does everything I need a computer to do :)
Now that I've found out from various folk here just what I need to get my Amiga online, all I have to do now is buy the netcard and this iMac that I've only had for a few months to see what the internet was all about can go to someone else who has a use for it... :)
I honestly would hang onto the iMac, just in case your miggy misbehaves. :)
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Sure it probably was more expensive back then, but kids didn't care and I was one back then so I am sure they must have had some clever marketing which perhaps sold it.
For me it was great.. used to love the taste of it.
Ha on the topic of SodaStream... my old mother bless her still has a SodaStream machine standing proudly in her kitchen. I wonder if the canisters will still fit? lol
@Franko
For me personally as soon as X1000 gets FireFox and some way of playing the 'going-out-of-fashion' flash animations there will be absolutely no need to own a PC/Mac if ALL you are interested in is using the internet at home and nothing more. This will be I think of course Hyperion's no.1 goal - get the platform up to a satisfactory standard suitable for 'your average user'.
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I honestly would hang onto the iMac, just in case your miggy misbehaves. :)
You have a point their, might be a good idea even though I reckon I've enough old hardware to last me until I kick the bucket, but you never know... :)
Just wish that some folk, while I respect their rights to air their points of view on the Amiga situation, would understand that there are still a few (very few!!!) of us that the Amiga does all that we require from a computer... :)
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Am with Franko. I have a iMac at home - I will gladly replace it with Amiga X1000 upon its release because all I generally do is read stuff online, use facebook, visit youtube, do some web page design/coding, ftp and email. If I really want to do some word processing and I can just use work PCs - until OpenOffice Amiga arrives that is.
Well its probably lucky I actually have a Mac Mini as well - which I currently share between home and work - I can always use it if I really need to use Illustrator, Photoshop or anything similar.
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Am with Franko. I have a iMac at home - I will gladly replace it with Amiga X1000 upon its release because all I generally do is read stuff online, use facebook, visit youtube, do some web page design/coding, ftp and email. If I really want to do some word processing and I can just use work PCs - until OpenOffice Amiga arrives that is.
Well its probably lucky I actually have a Mac Mini as well - which I share between home and work - I can always use it if I really need to use Illustrator, Photoshop or anything similar.
ipv6
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What is ipv6? Am sure its some sort of TCP/IP protocol standard, but what practical difference does that make?
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What is ipv6? Am sure its some sort of TCP/IP protocol standard, but what practical difference does that make?
When it replaces IPV4, it'll mean your Amigas won't be able to use the internet unless they have their TCP/IP stacks replaced.
We'll run out of IPV4 address space in lesss then 12 months.
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Ah right... so its a very minor concern then. I am sure RoadShow will be updated in plenty of time.... and besides its not like the internet just won't work one day when I try to log on lol
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When it replaces IPV4, it'll mean your Amigas won't be able to use the internet unless they have their TCP/IP stacks replaced.
We'll run out of IPV4 address space in lesss then 12 months.
Depends on how you connect. As long as your router is happy to have an external facing IPv6 address, I think IPv4 is wide enough for most people's LAN requirements ;)
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Ah right... so its a very minor concern then. I am sure RoadShow will be updated in plenty of time....
I'm sure it'll get updated around the same time as USB 2 gets fixed ;)
and besides its not like the internet just won't work one day when I try to log on lol
When your ISP switches to IPV6, if your stack doesn't support it, that's precisely what'll happen.
--edit--
Yes, depending on router. Probably.
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Well if that day does ever come then the Indians at Virgin Media will be hearing from me on the phone as they are not providing an adequate broadband service.
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What, people still connect directly without a router?
Seriously, I'd be screwed without one. The horrible little ADSL modem I got from my ISP didn't work with anything other than windows. It also tended to drop the connection left right and centre, requiring a full blown USB reset in order to work. I really don't miss that piece of junk.
Now, even my A1200, sporting an ageing TCP stack that doesn't even support DHCP, let alone IPv6 is happy to talk to the outside world.
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What, people still connect directly without a router?
I use a router btw. :laugh1:
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What, people still connect directly without a router?
Yes.
Although it's less and less. The other thing is that most of the routers I've seen supplied by ISPs are pretty ropey.
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Yeah like them nobody's-heard-of setup boxes for tv - thats true.
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Well if that day does ever come then the Indians at Virgin Media will be hearing from me on the phone as they are not providing an adequate broadband service.
"We don't support your OS".
Why yes, I have in fact had that discussion with several ISPs over the years.
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Well if that day does ever come then the Indians at Virgin Media will be hearing from me on the phone as they are not providing an adequate broadband service.
About which probably nothing will happen. You might get a free router though :)
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Yeah like them nobody's-heard-of setup boxes for tv - thats true.
I think the worst ones I've seen were the ones BT were advertising - where the router was also the phone base. Absolutely shocking things, not to mention full of security issues.
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"We don't support your OS".
Why yes, I have in fact had that discussion with several ISPs over the years.
As I have never had a Windows PC I have always had that problem... Amiga, Mac... telephone support is a waste of time.
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(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/tech_support.png)
Seems to fit ;)
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Haha a codeword to actually speak to someone with technical knowledge that would be quite something. For Virgin Media I suggest the word Vindaloo.
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Well if that day does ever come then the Indians at Virgin Media will be hearing from me on the phone as they are not providing an adequate broadband service.
....
Haha a codeword to actually speak to someone with technical knowledge that would be quite something. For Virgin Media I suggest the word Vindaloo.
*sigh*
Racial stereotype, much?
This may come as a surprise, but most people in India have never heard of Vindaloo or most of the other curry dishes you may be familiar with.
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Yes.
Nice. No, wait, the other thing...
Although it's less and less. The other thing is that most of the routers I've seen supplied by ISPs are pretty ropey.
Yeah, a friend received one and apparently it was pants to set up and the wireless is temperamental in the extreme. Not sure what make it was.
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Nice. No, wait, the other thing...
You've not lived until you've gone on ADSL with just a modem :P
Yeah, a friend received one and apparently it was pants to set up and the wireless is temperamental in the extreme. Not sure what make it was.
The most consistently bad ones I've seen were made by Thompson - the speedtouch (presumably named such on account of how fast they cause you to reach for them and launch them out of the nearest window in a mix of frustration and fury).
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Fine Karlos... Poppadom it is then!
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You've not lived until you've gone on ADSL with just a modem :P
I was there... briefly :)
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I was there... briefly :)
Yep, me too. Now my ISP is Comcast. I actually thought ADSL was pretty fast, before I switched (hey, it was lightyears beyond dial up).
I can't imagine using it now.
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I can't imagine using it now.
Pah! Puny mortals with their wired connections to the internet!
I have seen the future, the future is 3G/HSDPA/4G.
It turns out that the internet is in fact going to become more unstable than Charles Manson and offer less bandwidth than an acoustic coupler during the hours of daylight. :lol:
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*sigh*
Racial stereotype, much?
This may come as a surprise, but most people in India have never heard of Vindaloo or most of the other curry dishes you may be familiar with.
Completely of the real subject matter, but interesting non the less, a few interesting facts about Curries... :)
The word Vindaloo is actually Portuguese in origin. Most Indian curry's that we eat here in Britain especially Vindaloo are generally not eaten at all by the Indian community. Same applies to the Chinese currie, most chinese wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. :)
What we in the UK call a currie is a derivative of what the Chinese and Indian Immigrants began selling when most of them came here in the late 50s and 60s. They adapted their traditional cuisine to suit the pallets of the natives here whom had soon became their main customer base.
Still I'm glad they did as it's my favorite food, I have 6 Chinese curries per week and 3 Indian curries, lovely jubbly.... :)
Apologies for the interuption...
We Now Return You to the Scheduled Topic... :)
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AROS will not be affected either, but it will also still not be close to be as usable as neither of the two others. MorphOS is Amiga done right! AROS may be a nice hobby for the involved developers, but from a users point of view, it's stumbling in MorphOS footsteps.
All in your opinion of course ...
I could argue that the only platform for which there is no investment made in new hardware is MOS. OS 3.x has Natami, FPGAArgcade; OS4 Sam460 & X1000 and AROS the iMiCA & the AresOne...
But I'm not going to ;)
greets,
Staf.
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Depends on how you connect. As long as your router is happy to have an external facing IPv6 address, I think IPv4 is wide enough for most people's LAN requirements ;)
But once IPv6 only web sites starts to show up I don't think a router can save you as the browser would get a IPv6 address when doing the DNS lookup.
greets,
Staf.
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But once IPv6 only web sites starts to show up I don't think a router can save you as the browser would get a IPv6 address when doing the DNS lookup.
greets,
Staf.
I dare say it will be a while before IPv6 only sites appear. There's too much in the way of entrenched IPv4 stuff out there in the real world for a simple "switch" from one to the other.
Wow, how did we get onto this again? :lol:
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Outside of the community (and to a lesser extent the Alt OS crowd), these projects might as well not exist.
That's actually not quite true - I've been surprised more than once about people way outside of our community that are aware of Minimig, people who once upon a time had an Amiga or a friend who had Amiga, or even used Amiga in school. The things that holds them back from buying one are the lack of AGA and availability.
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I dare say it will be a while before IPv6 only sites appear.
They are here already, some of them have been here for years. Ofcourse noone in the so called "real world" care about them, since the "real world" has only been IPv4.
Till now.
As mentioned, next year there will be no more new IPv4 addresses available, meaning that new allocations will come from dealing with IPv4 addresses already owned by people. This means IPv4 address blocks might end up as a commodity you have to pay for. In addition, as IPv4 blocks will shift around here and there, the reverse delegations in DNS will become more complex and the routing tables will also become more and more complex as more and more smaller IPv4 segmens becomes spread around. All in all - lots of work and money, expences that are easily avoided by simply shifting to IPv6, a protocol already supported by a large majority of the users and the equipment in between.
There's too much in the way of entrenched IPv4 stuff out there in the real world for a simple "switch" from one to the other.
Well, to some extent that is true, we will probably never really get rid of IPv4 - however, once IPv6 is established as "something most users have", you can bet your ass IPv4 services will start to vanish - rapidly, as there is work involved in maintaining both IPv6 and IPv4 in parallelle.
Wow, how did we get onto this again? :lol:
Expect this to come up more and more frequent in the coming years.
Oh - and no magic router will help you, sorry.
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@kolla
Not such a big deal here, since I mostly use my amiga's networking capabilities for local LAN stuff like samba shares, VNC etc.
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But once IPv6 only web sites starts to show up I don't think a router can save you as the browser would get a IPv6 address when doing the DNS lookup.
It's easy enough to NAT and rewrite IPv4 to IPv6 in the router. Intercepting DNS traffic for NAT'ing purposes is easy and "cheap" - I don't think any routers produced today would have any problem handling the extra cost in processing of that kind of rewriting.
If I was running a major ISP today, I'd be looking for routers with capability to bridge IPv4 via NAT to IPv6 transparently to deploy to customers so that I could start transitioning my backbone to IPv6 on my own schedule rather than be dependent on customer equipment.
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we don't know if Escom ever owned the copyrights, so we don't know if any of their successors ever owned them...
They sure did, as has been known from official sources for more than 20 years:
...the sale of substantially all assets of CEL, CBM and certain of their affiliates (the "Commodore Entities") to ESCOM AG ("Escom")...
substantially all of their intellectual property, including technology, trademarks (including Commodore's logo and the names "Amiga" and "Commodore"), patents, copyrights...
Emphasis added. Source: UNITED STATES BANKRUPTCY COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK (http://www.amigareport.com/ar307/news1.html).
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When it replaces IPV4, it'll mean your Amigas won't be able to use the internet unless they have their TCP/IP stacks replaced.
We'll run out of IPV4 address space in lesss then 12 months.
IOS9 is causing a huge surge in IPV6 usage. But that means there are far more people running IOS8 and earlier than running Amiga's, which I think should guarantee that IPV4 will still be supported in 12 months time. There have been predictions that IPV4 is about to disappear for years.
I only use the ISP supplied router as a modem. It makes it much simpler to switch ISP every year to get a cheap deal. I used the same router on cable and ADSL (it's a WNDR3700 that is now running OpenWRT). Therefore I have IPV4+IPV6 locally, but I'm currently only getting an IPV4 address from the ISP's router (although it is an old one from the last time I was a customer of theirs).