Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: runequester on October 24, 2010, 05:01:07 PM
-
So this comes up constantly. "Amiga should move to x86 and everything would be way better".
I don't think its all that simple really. Here's some things that'd at least warrant exploring:
1: Time and money required to port the operating system. I have absolutely zero idea how long this would take, but I am assuming it'd be a pretty significant endeavour.
2: Time and money required to port applications.Without app's, an OS is worthless.
3: Oh hey there AROS! What functionality does os4 give that AROS doesn't ?
4: Most overlooked:
Hardware support.
AROS has been around for years and still supports a fairly limited range of hardware.
When it comes to hardware there's two options: The linux way (support it all in the kernel, which requires massive amounts of work from a large number of people) or the windows way (have the hardware manufacturer write drivers for you).
OS4 would have neither.
The assumption in these threads tends to be "we could run amiga OS on any PC and it'd be rad". And that would rad, but it won't be reality.
5: User base.
Is there any actual user base in a world saturated with mature OS choices ? What do I get out of amiga os in the present day and age, that isn't already served by one of the big four (windows, linux, bsd or mac) in some flavour or form ?
I'd love to see data on this, but I heavily suspect that the amount of non-amiga folks using morph or aros is a distinct minority.
I have a hard time seeing how x86 amiga os would attract new people rather than just shuffle existing users around.
Pessimistic ? Maybe. But I think the choices that were made (powerPC) were good choices at the time. I think it's too late at this point to go back.
-
So this comes up constantly. "Amiga should move to x86 and everything would be way better".
I don't think its all that simple really. Here's some things that'd at least warrant exploring:
1: Time and money required to port the operating system. I have absolutely zero idea how long this would take, but I am assuming it'd be a pretty significant endeavour.
Considering it's been ported to PPC 'just recently' (in Amiga terms), the amount of work required for x86 should be managable.
2: Time and money required to port applications.Without app's, an OS is worthless.
No need porting apps, a compatibility layer (which can probably be extracted from UAE) will do the trick.
3: Oh hey there AROS! What functionality does os4 give that AROS doesn't ?
Good question. ;)
4: Most overlooked:
Hardware support.
AROS has been around for years and still supports a fairly limited range of hardware.
When it comes to hardware there's two options: The linux way (support it all in the kernel, which requires massive amounts of work from a large number of people) or the windows way (have the hardware manufacturer write drivers for you).
OS4 would have neither.
The driver problem exists regardless of the CPU platform.
-
1: Time and money required to port the operating system. I have absolutely zero idea how long this would take, but I am assuming it'd be a pretty significant endeavour.
If they really did convert the OS to C as I've heard, it's not that big of a step.
I've helped completely rewrite a highly complex ~16 million line codebase with just a couple of other developers within a year.
If they can't handle porting a small (at least partially C) OS to a new CPU in that time frame or less, then they need new developers.
2: Time and money required to port applications.Without app's, an OS is worthless.
I don't think OS4's strength is in apps to begin with, the developer community is pretty small.
Most of the apps I've seen for OS4 are Linux ports anyway, so recompile, done.
3: Oh hey there AROS! What functionality does os4 give that AROS doesn't ?
Not so much a functionality, but rather validity. They own the name AmigaOS.
4: Most overlooked:
Hardware support.
AROS has been around for years and still supports a fairly limited range of hardware.
When it comes to hardware there's two options: The linux way (support it all in the kernel, which requires massive amounts of work from a large number of people) or the windows way (have the hardware manufacturer write drivers for you).
OS4 would have neither.
Aros is a hobby project that had to start from scratch and reverse engineer. Please don't confuse that with a company who had the source code.
In that light, Aros has moved much more quickly than the official OS.
Even supporting a small subset of x86 hardware, such as one or two chipsets, video cards, etc would still give users many times the hardware availability of custom PPC based solutions at a fraction of the cost.
5: User base.
Is there any actual user base in a world saturated with mature OS choices ? What do I get out of amiga os in the present day and age, that isn't already served by one of the big four (windows, linux, bsd or mac) in some flavour or form ?
Is that an argument against PPC as well?
I have a hard time seeing how x86 amiga os would attract new people rather than just shuffle existing users around.
With the current OS4 hardware requirements, how do you expect to grow the user base?
Nobody "just tries out" an OS that requires a hardware purchase equivalent to two Windows PC's or a Mac.
Pessimistic ? Maybe. But I think the choices that were made (powerPC) were good choices at the time. I think it's too late at this point to go back.
That shouldn't prevent us from going forward though.
In the scheme of things, PPC was just a speed bump. Most users never saw, much less owned one so the loss in compatibility would be bearable.
-
So this comes up constantly. "Amiga should move to x86 and everything would be way better".
I don't think its all that simple really. Here's some things that'd at least warrant exploring:
1: Time and money required to port the operating system. I have absolutely zero idea how long this would take, but I am assuming it'd be a pretty significant endeavour.
They could use AROS as the foundation and simply compile Reaction and other OS4 only stuff, that AROS is missing add a fancy OS4 Theme and ta da ! Theres OS4 x86
2: Time and money required to port applications.Without app's, an OS is worthless.
AROS is API compatible. Most C programs can be recompiled with minor changes.
I dont think there are much PPC Assembler apps for OS4.
Integrated UAE can provide 68k program compatability. (almost done - Janus UAE)
3: Oh hey there AROS! What functionality does os4 give that AROS doesn't ?
The Name. Not much more.
4: Most overlooked:
Hardware support. .
Write drivers for one single Chipset + GPU and you have plenty of Hardware to choose from.
But IMHO it really doesnt matter anymore if Hyperion goes x86 or not. They wont gain any significant market share. They might survive if they find a cheap entry Hardware. That could be a nice ARM Netbook or if they are in Luck, someone produces a PPC based Netbook.
-
AROS is API compatible. Most C programs can be recompiled with minor changes.
I dont think there are much PPC Assembler apps for OS4.
Integrated UAE can provide 68k program compatability. (almost done - Janus UAE)
Writing in Assembly is deprecated on AmigaOS 4.x and as a result, there are no low-level includes for the AmigaOS 4.x SDK.
As for integrated UAE, it's unnecessary if you're running 68k AROS. :)
-
Porting the OS to x86 instruction set is one thing. Making it work on the millions of combinations of exact motherboard type, sound chip, video card, firewire/sata/usb devices is the problem.
Hyperion would never have the resources to write enough device drivers to support enough combinations of PC hardware to make it financially viable. People forget that no two PCs are alike and because of that recoding the OS to work on x86 CPUs is only the start. It's a tricky one too because your market is tiny but the number of different combinations of hardware that they need to support is massive. Bad business sense and I don't blame them for ignoring x86 really.
If you ask me they would be better off modifying OS4 so it runs on most recent Macs and provide a nice boing ball sticker to cover the Apple logo :)
-
After OS3.9 we had Amithlon, which was and to this day remains a great achievement technically. If we were to have gone to x86 it would have had to have been then.
Sure you could do a port of OS4 and make an x86 native version I suppose. But what would it realistically offer that wouldn't be better supported with a lightweight linux running UAE?
And this is where we're at now. Sure, PPC, it's cute and at the time it might have been justifiable. But it got the community nowhere.
I have to say that at this late stage in the game. The only realistic options left on the table are UAE and classic68k / Minimig.
Natami might become one if and when it's released.
I just don't think there is the resource there now to do anything else except fall back to the pure retro scene. AmigaNG, regardless of which side of the red/blue divide you're on, has been an utter disaster for the community as a whole.
-
Leander is mostly right I think.
Just use/integrate UAE for classic support and...
As going/staying ppc requires very specific and expensive hardware, I don't see why x86 could not be supported in a similar way ?
I mean... just test/release for 1 to 2 mainboards and perhaps 1-2 cpu's.... write drivers for those, and specifically say other ones are not supported. I admit you would need to repeat this each years... but it seems doable to me.
just a thought
Tom UK
-
Well said Leander.
IMHO, both of the PPC OS's are Phase5 compatibles anyway. Commodore and the original Amiga engineers never mentioned PPC as a viable option far as I know.
An Amithlon clone that slowly merged with Aros would be the best way to go assuming you don't have the OS source code.
-
Leander is mostly right I think.
Just use/integrate UAE for classic support and...
As going/staying ppc requires very specific and expensive hardware, I don't see why x86 could not be supported in a similar way ?
I mean... just test/release for 1 to 2 mainboards and perhaps 1-2 cpu's.... write drivers for those, and specifically say other ones are not supported. I admit you would need to repeat this each years... but it seems doable to me.
just a thought
Tom UK
Specifying even one exact x86 hardware configuration is still easier for users than specifying four proprietary PPC configurations.
That's all Apple does with x86!
Plus, I guarantee finding a specific PC motherboard even five years after being discontinued is cheaper and easier than finding the custom PPC today.
-
I don't see the average x86 user wanting to pay for AmigaOS unless it's much superior to others. What will AmigaOS get people on x86 that they cannot get for free with other OS? So it's really "just" the current Amiga users that will find the easier route (x86) to using OS4? Is that the main point here?
-
Specifying even one exact x86 hardware configuration is still easier for users than specifying four proprietary PPC configurations.
I always figured the best way to go about it would be to pick something like the mini-itx systems by VIA and more recently Intel/nVidia.
Limited hardware differences, all well documented and quite a few cool features.
As for what they'd offer over other things in the market, that really is the $64,000 question, isn't it?
-
I don't see the average x86 user wanting to pay for AmigaOS unless it's much superior to others. What will AmigaOS get people on x86 that they cannot get for free with other OS? So it's really "just" the current Amiga users that will find the easier route (x86) to using OS4? Is that the main point here?
At the current state of any Amiga-alike, there is no reason to choose it over a "standard" OS. It's stagnant and split too many directions.
But, if you are competing with only Amiga-alikes, then IMHO an x86 based OS could easily gain the majority of the users and help unify the community.
Honestly, even hard-core Amiga fanatics are balking at the price of entry on PPC solutions.
-
Yes, I don't think any AmigaOS will ever overtake Linux in terms of popularity. The reasons behind the idea of X86 AmigaOS are simple. X86 equipment is plentiful and cheap. An X86 Amiga would allow you to load a Virtualbox MS Windows/Linux?MacOS system to run software that doesn't exist on the Amiga. If Wine could be ported you could run many MS Windows programs outside of a virtualbox.
Basically for the price of AmigaOS you could have a brand new Amiga.
-
I mean... just test/release for 1 to 2 mainboards and perhaps 1-2 cpu's....
The mainboards would be outdated and unavailable before the OS is even released. Seriously, if you are into this kind of stuff - look at AROS. It won´t get any better than this if you are on x86. We don´t need a second AROS, we already have one. The only way you could improve an x86 Amiga-like experience you have to nail the API on top of Linux which has no driver problems. But according to some MorphOS fans on this site, Anubis isn´t going well at the moment.
-
The mainboards would be outdated and unavailable before the OS is even released. Seriously, if you are into this kind of stuff - look at AROS. It won´t get any better than this if you are on x86.
This wouldn't be a problem if you picked a niche such as the mini-itx market. The hardware there is fairly stable and quite limited. Also there is OSS code that one could leverage.
-
I don't see the average x86 user wanting to pay for AmigaOS unless it's much superior to others. What will AmigaOS get people on x86 that they cannot get for free with other OS? So it's really "just" the current Amiga users that will find the easier route (x86) to using OS4? Is that the main point here?
Well, the same could be said about MorphOS... why would you run it next to Mac OS which is a superior OS in every way.
Listening to Hyperion guys at Amiwest today I think they're firmly set to remain a hobbyist market with the AmigaOS and AmigaONE brands. They do not even want to market outside of the community(by their own words, if I haven't got something wrong, the stream was a little laggy at first). So, there's really no point in asking about average x86 users... better ask yourself why would a average AmigaOS user want with a x86 hardware? The answers are... it's cheap, fast and it's plentiful.
How bout a x86 AmigaONE X1000 for 1000$ instead of 3000$+ offering the same speed and functionality...
But, I think it's too late for that. AROS is too strong today and I think Hyperion would find it hard to justify paying for x86 OS4 next to AROS today. Had it been done 2-3 years ago it would have been possible.
-
The mainboards would be outdated and unavailable before the OS is even released.
As opposed to single-source custom PPC boards that are both outdated and unavailable upon release?
-
But, I think it's too late for that. AROS is too strong today
This isn't the first time I've read this, recently in fact I've seen it repeated. I don't know if it is true.
What I will say is that I never honestly expected to see the day when AROS would be pointed at as being complete enough that it warranted the attention it's getting.
I'm glad I was wrong. Well played folks.
-
This isn't the first time I've read this, recently in fact I've seen it repeated. I don't know if it is true.
Well, compared to MorphOS or AOS4 it is still probably "crude" in some areas, but then again, in some it is ahead. But with a new GUI(planned) and some serious beta testing to iron out some bugs, I think few would opt to pay for a very similar OS just for the sake of The Name.
-
AROS is too strong today and I think Hyperion would find it hard to justify paying for x86 OS4 next to AROS today. Had it been done 2-3 years ago it would have been possible.
I have no ppc machines so i can only argue: perhaps aos4 is more stable than aros is?
I love aros but often i have to reboot it because it crashes (i7-p7p55-9800gtx2+ machine).
If aos is more stable than aros is i'd buy it today.
-
Well, compared to MorphOS or AOS4 it is still probably "crude" in some areas, but then again, in some it is ahead. But with a new GUI(planned) and some serious beta testing to iron out some bugs, I think few would opt to pay for a very similar OS just for the sake of The Name.
Even to get to this stage... Heh it blows me away. Good luck with the testing :)
-
I think it would be a shame if the Amiga moved over to X86, because like others have said Amiga would be just another OS rather than a unique h/w & s/w platform in its own right. I also like, and feel the need for a strong connection with the original Amiga kit from the 80/90s
PPc likely has enough legs to do most of what is required in the modern world - especially optimised for one platform. I wonder if there is any way of making the price more competitive? I guess it all depends on how you view Amiga computing in the modern world, e.g. hobby computing or a standard desktop work horse. As a work horse compared with the faceless stuff down PC World it is horrendously expensive, but as a unique, vibrant and interesting hobby it is excellent value for money with a great community behind it. I would say stop trying to compete with the mainstream and accept and enjoy 'Amiga' for its vibrancy, and uniqueness :)
I think a modern PPc card for the classic Amiga's would go along way towards getting more people involved and interested in OS4 - the market for classic Amiga seems very vibrant and well backed reviewing the price of second hand PPc cards etc. Also there are lots of 30+ year old kids(!) like me who are now in a position to buy that go faster turbo card we could never afford back in the day! But the connection -for me at least - would have to be there with the classic machines.
Amiga will win through as a unique interesting product steeped in History - as a standalone OS on X86 it will struggle because it would have little genuine connection with the past and only a very small developer base compared with Linux and Windows, in my humble opinion.
Stay original and niche!! :)
-
@ad-rs1600i
But I think we have to realise it's 2011 (almost). You're never going to be able to out do NVidia as a graphics card. or produce modern versions of any of the custom chips. Hyperion realise this and support modernish graphics cards. X1000 runs an Apple CPU, is this somehow more related to Amiga's past than an x86 CPU?
At the end of the day when you modernise legacy, then legacy becomes whatever you want it to be.
-
@ persia
I am a bit of a old romantic so anything I say will certainly be from that vain I suppose! :) To my mind there was an argument for PowerPC as the logical successor to 64k as the Mac had very similar lineage to the Amiga and went that way - I always looked at the Mac as what might have happened next with the Amiga without Commodore's demise :)
I guess my viewpoint is also definitely in the retro camp - I would love to see a new Amiga game running on a modern PPc board even if it wasn't anywhere near as good as something on a modern PC. Incidentally for games I don't even use a PC anymore, I have my PS3 which I also love and appreciate more than any PC I have ever owned because like the Amiga, you always feel the developers are pushing every last crumb of performance out of the hardware. In the PC world, if you cannot run the game/app it generally a 'tough luck mate, upgrade your hardware' type scenario.
Adrian
PS - I really loved reading this post with all the serious techy/developer dialog - I thought I was technical but no where near to the level of you guys!! :) It is also really great to see everyone so passionate about their various points of argument either which way - it shows 'Amiga' as an entity has a future no matter what happens to my mind :)
-
If you are more pro-PPC, do you own a PPC Amiga-like system?
I think it would be interesting to know who is buying them and who is only pro-PPC in theory.
-
@ persia
I am a bit of a old romantic so anything I say will certainly be from that vain I suppose! :) To my mind there was an argument for PowerPC as the logical successor to 64k as the Mac had very similar lineage to the Amiga and went that way - I always looked at the Mac as what might have happened next with the Amiga without Commodore's demise
You can pretty much thank Apple for the death of PowerPC desktop machine, and it has nothing to do with Apple switching to Intel CPUs a few years ago, but everything to do with Apple killing off the CHRP in the mid-late '90ies when they refused to license MacOS to "clones", before any other desktop OS had managed to establish themselves on the PowerPC. And you can ask IBM and Freescale (Motorola back then) what they thought of it at the time.
Oh, and it's 68k, not 64k :)
-
You have to remember OS4 going to x86 from PPC will be nothing like the experience for Apple Mac users.
1. Apple design their own computers, which have their own style. Hyperion make an OS and that's it. OS4 would be just a box on the shelf you install on some fugly PC.
2. Apple invested millions and still it wasn't a smooth as silk transition despite have totally locked hardware and bespoke BIOS. Hyperion can provide neither of these.
So unless someone buys the rights to Amiga and reverse engineers a version of AmigaOS to x86 (OS5? OS3.9? but these are just names not what features it could/couldn't have) then you will have a very slow painful process before you have a bug free useful OS to buy AND it will run on some crappy looking machine.
So what we actually need at the very least is....
i. A stable motherboard as a platform.
ii. A uniquely styled case that is "Amiga" to put it in.
iii. An OS converted to x86 and bug-free to run on the above.
Maybe now some people will realise just what it is you are asking. We have many ass-wipes like BS Altman and his Commodore USA crap but can you name one person even in the position to negate a deal to give you the complete package as listed above?
Putting OS4 for x86 on a shelf will do squat, build an Amiga styled computer and sell it cheap enough and we are ready to rock and roll and a few sales will happen off the shelf I reckon.
YMMV
-
Someone could just write an emulated ppc like SheepShaver. That would be the best bet and on newer x86 hardware would be cheaper than Amiga x1000.
-
You forgot a few...
3. Darwin, the core of OSX, had already been running on x86 many years already
4. NextStep, the OS from which the "upper layers" of OSX was developed, was also running on x86 for many years already.
Really, the switch to Intel from PowerPC for Apple was really a simple one, the biggest obstacle was to have all the application developers do the switch as well, some of them were just finnished moving their apps from OS9, many still hanging onto toolkits that existed in OSX only for providing easier porting from OS9. And then Apple switched again, leaving 32bit behind... some of the application developing companies are rather exhausted at this point :)
-
Hyperion make an OS and that's it. OS4 would be just a box on the shelf you install on some fugly PC.
Right now OS4 is just a box sitting on Hyperion's shelf due to the cost of hardware.
Nobody except maybe Mac die-hards want to pay a premium for a PC. They are just a commodity these days like buying nails or gasoline.
Nobody cares who made it, they want a deal and they want it to work.
The only thing Hyperion have going for them is the software and yet they are limiting its use, which makes no sense to me.
If they were even targeting old Macs it wouldn't be so glaringly obvious, but they don't even do that.
-
But HYperion claims to have rewritten OS 4 from scratch using the 3.1 source files as reference. Surely the OS would be mainly in C with some PPC/UBoot loader in assembler. So what they would need is a new bootloader that worked with EFI and then fix the fix C code that handled the bits backwards. OS 9 to OSX was more complex because it was NextStep based and there had to be a Carbon layer to handle legacy apps.
Does HYperion used any hardware dongles on the motherboards?
-
To me moving to x86 would loose the Amiga charm as well, only thing X86 related that I like is UAE.
Now that I am getting my "classics" more and more updated, I ma enjoying them very much.
I think a move to x86 would alienate a lot of people, that really like the classics (Ito me PPC as far as classic will go)
I think it would be a shame if the Amiga moved over to X86, because like others have said Amiga would be just another OS rather than a unique h/w & s/w platform in its own right. I also like, and feel the need for a strong connection with the original Amiga kit from the 80/90s
PPc likely has enough legs to do most of what is required in the modern world - especially optimised for one platform. I wonder if there is any way of making the price more competitive? I guess it all depends on how you view Amiga computing in the modern world, e.g. hobby computing or a standard desktop work horse. As a work horse compared with the faceless stuff down PC World it is horrendously expensive, but as a unique, vibrant and interesting hobby it is excellent value for money with a great community behind it. I would say stop trying to compete with the mainstream and accept and enjoy 'Amiga' for its vibrancy, and uniqueness :)
I think a modern PPc card for the classic Amiga's would go along way towards getting more people involved and interested in OS4 - the market for classic Amiga seems very vibrant and well backed reviewing the price of second hand PPc cards etc. Also there are lots of 30+ year old kids(!) like me who are now in a position to buy that go faster turbo card we could never afford back in the day! But the connection -for me at least - would have to be there with the classic machines.
Amiga will win through as a unique interesting product steeped in History - as a standalone OS on X86 it will struggle because it would have little genuine connection with the past and only a very small developer base compared with Linux and Windows, in my humble opinion.
Stay original and niche!! :)
-
Maybe if you guys push this issue hard enough, Hyperion will move to X86.
Then the only people Treavor and A-eon could market their hardware would be to those of us using MorphOS.
We get a new system (that most of us think is really cool) and Hyperion gets to compete with Microsoft and Apple instead of with MOS.
And, as has been mentioned before, they'll be charging for their OS while AROS will still be free.
One consistant thing you can count on with Amigans. They don't understand business or economics. Outside in the real world, Hyperion would get crushed.
I understand their reluctance to move in the direction you guys are suggesting and hope to have them around fora while longer as competitors (and an attraction to developers which might also support MOS).
How well do you guys think that will work?
-
I guess the answer to the question is not a lot would happen.
Hyperion have already said they have no compelling reason to switch to x86 and I can see their point. Ok, say that OS4 x86 was released today and it supported a single MB/Graphics chipset (eg ION ATOM for example), would they suddenly magically sell 1000's of OS4 copies....no, of course not.
And how would everyone who has invested in a SAM feel? Pretty pissed off I reckon.
Things would probably have worked out a bit differently if Amiga hadn't gone down the PPC road back in 95, in that case it would have gone x86 years ago (with a decent x68 emulation layer) and AROS wouldn't even exist right now. It would be very hard for Hyperion to now come up with an x86 OS4 with decent support for classic x68 applications and the newer PPC stuff.
If you look at the current OS market shares it's quite interesting. Windows is way out ahead with something like 90% of the market share, OSX is second with about 5% and then Unix (all flavours) brings up the rear with about 1%. Now you have to ask yourself, if something as impressive as Ubuntu which is free, has wide hardware support and is reasonably well marketed struggles to get near %1 market share...how can OS4 ever be anything but a very small player in a niche market?
-
I'd love to see data on this, but I heavily suspect that the amount of non-amiga folks using morph or aros is a distinct minority.
Does none count as a minority? I've got friends with MorphOS compatible Macs & I cannot convince any of the to try out MOS...they just look at me like I'm mad! LOL
PZ.
-
Does none count as a minority? I've got friends with MorphOS compatible Macs & I cannot convince any of the to try out MOS...they just look at me like I'm mad! LOL
PZ.
At least one, myself. I was familiar with the Amiga (actually pretty much all personal computers) as I'd started using/building my own computers in the late '70's and since then I've stayed pretty informed on the industry as a whole.
Trust me, since I managed a company in the late 80's that built 68000 computers, I really hoped that Intel wouldn't gain dominance (in fact, to this day I base my X86 systems on AMD CPUs because without competition Intel would still be selling us crap like the P4).
Some when started to buy some old hardware (out of nostalgia) I looked at used Amigas. Good God man! The pricing is insane (especially for old hardware).
So I tried Amiga Forever, found it usable, but still not quite what I wanted.
Then, when the MorphOS team started to support equipment other than the Pegasos, I tried MOS, found I liked it, and have adopted it as my primary OS.
Of course I've still got systems that will boot Ubuntu and Windows, but in the last week I've used nothing but MOS.
So, like I said, the minority contains at least one (and I do believe we could convert others).
-
What makes people think that on x86 they would suddenly be in competition with Microsoft and that if you can't get to 50% marketshare you stop?
Compared to the Amiga market, a tiny piece of the PC market would be like striking gold.
The only thing that would change is that the number of people who could try AOS would suddenly be in the millions.
If a minute fraction of them bought a copy, the sales and user base increase would be exponentially larger than on high priced, hard to find (for the average user) PPC systems.
You have to already love it in order to invest in PPC hardware, so the market is doomed to only shrink.
You really need the hobby users that follow Linux, FreeBSD, etc. and ex-Amiga users with fond memories in order to get anywhere at all.
-
What makes people think that on x86 they would suddenly be in competition with Microsoft and that if you can't get to 50% marketshare you stop?
Compared to the Amiga market, a tiny piece of the PC market would be like striking gold.
The only thing that would change is that the number of people who could try AOS would suddenly be in the millions.
If a minute fraction of them bought a copy, the sales and user base increase would be exponentially larger than on high priced, hard to find (for the average user) PPC systems.
You have to already love it in order to invest in PPC hardware, so the market is doomed to only shrink.
You really need the hobby users that follow Linux, FreeBSD, etc. and ex-Amiga users with fond memories in order to get anywhere at all.
If AROS hasn't brought them in the past several years, I have my doubts the amiga name would.
-
AROS has had almost no exposure and hasn't reached a 1.0 release yet. I wouldn't consider it a litmus test for the possible success of x86 AOS.
-
To me moving to x86 would loose the Amiga charm as well, only thing X86 related that I like is UAE.
Now that I am getting my "classics" more and more updated, I ma enjoying them very much.
I think a move to x86 would alienate a lot of people, that really like the classics (Ito me PPC as far as classic will go)
Moving to X86 would pick up more new users than it would alienate old users. After all it isn't like Mac where they have millions of users. I would say maybe they lose 50 old users, and pick up 50, 000 new depending on the price of the OS. I know many young people try new things just to be different. Look at IBM warp, I still use that on an old laptop as I know many others that do as well. Lots of ATM machines are still run with Warp.
-
There is no possible success for AOS4 on X86. You might get a few extra people buy it who remeber the Amiga fondly. But then what will they run it because there will be no apps so will be emualtion within. Just use WinUAE.
The path was chosen its too late to change now. I am not saying this because I am some sort ot PPC fanboy or x86 hater. I dont care really what stuff runs on.
i just don't see any point/advantages/justification for moving cpu base.
-
There is no possible success for AOS4 on X86. You might get a few extra people buy it who remeber the Amiga fondly. But then what will they run it because there will be no apps so will be emualtion within. Just use WinUAE.
The path was chosen its too late to change now. I am not saying this because I am some sort ot PPC fanboy or x86 hater. I dont care really what stuff runs on.
i just don't see any point/advantages/justification for moving cpu base.
I agree, I was just stating that they would probably get more new users than losing old ones due to the few users that use OS4 anyways. They would however, sell copies to new users out of curiousity. I agree until they have some applications not available to other OS versions there is no chance of this thing taking off as I previously stated in another post. I Purchased OS4 for classic and did not really care for it. I would not purchase it again with or without a machine attached unless I could have software I do not already have to run on it.
-
2: Time and money required to port applications.Without app's, an OS is worthless.
Most current OS4 have already been ported to x86, and even better: AROS. So no time nor money involved here...
3: Oh hey there AROS! What functionality does os4 give that AROS doesn't ?
It's the same with Linux PowerPC, MacOS PowerPC,... What functionnality does OS4 give than these don't ?
4: Most overlooked:
Hardware support.
AROS has been around for years and still supports a fairly limited range of hardware.
Well, it's fairly limited but still a lot less limited than current OS.
But going x86 isn't supposed to bring so much hardware choice. It's about to give access to cheap hardware. You could select for example a motherboard from ASUS, and only support this one.
The assumption in these threads tends to be "we could run amiga OS on any PC and it'd be rad". And that would rad, but it won't be reality.
Of course not.
5: User base.
Is there any actual user base in a world saturated with mature OS choices ?
Well, is there any actual user base when you produce 500 machines per year (and I'm optimistic)... I don't know what would happen if it was available on x86. What's sure is that hundreds of millions of machines are sold each year. That's certainly a lot more potential than anything produced in the Amiga "market"... 0.001% of this market would mean 2000 new Amiga users a year...
Pessimistic ? Maybe
Optimistic ? Maybe :)
But we'll never know unless they decide to make the move... And as we would say in french... "qui ne tente rien n'arrive à rien" (Nothing ventured, nothing gained)
What's sure is that PowerPC is dead-end, unless you target some embbed market, which clearly isn't what Amiga users do.
-
AROS has had almost no exposure and hasn't reached a 1.0 release yet. I wouldn't consider it a litmus test for the possible success of x86 AOS.
I would. AROS has shader support under Mesa using NVidia graphics cards using the Nouveau drivers under Gallium3D. AmigaOS 4.x doesn't support shaders at all and MiniGL is based on Warp3D which is not capable of shaders at this time.
On the other hand, the 1.0 release of AROS ABIs are expected in a few months and will prompt recompilation of all the apps due to incompatibility with AmigaOS 3.1 sources.
-
You can pretty much thank Apple for the death of PowerPC desktop machine, and it has nothing to do with Apple switching to Intel CPUs a few years ago, but everything to do with Apple killing off the CHRP in the mid-late '90ies when they refused to license MacOS to "clones", before any other desktop OS had managed to establish themselves on the PowerPC. And you can ask IBM and Freescale (Motorola back then) what they thought of it at the time.
Oh, and it's 68k, not 64k :)
64k lol - can you tell i've been messing around with computers for too long?! 64k probably relates to my first computer a Amstrad CPC 464 with 64k of RAM I think from memory..
-
To me moving to x86 would loose the Amiga charm as well, only thing X86 related that I like is UAE.
Now that I am getting my "classics" more and more updated, I ma enjoying them very much.
I think a move to x86 would alienate a lot of people, that really like the classics (Ito me PPC as far as classic will go)
I agree, and if someone produced a modern PPC card today for the classic machines, I would be really interested and so would many other people I feel dabbling with classic Amiga, to the point whereby you might get renewed interesting in OS4 with the associated renewed development projects :)
-
Amstrad CPC range, best 8bit ever
-
Amstrad CPC range, best 8bit ever
I sold mine for a 128k Spectrum... :)
-
Amstrad CPC range, best 8bit ever
Nay, C65 beast 8bit (we're not counting if it reached full production, right?).
Back to topic. If I read the posts after my last post correctly, Hyperion would have pay their developers not just for an X86 port, but they would alspo have to pay again for the right to use the source codes of AOS4 for the port? Or wouls any product resulting from AOS4.X source code still be covered?
-
Amstrad CPC range, best 8bit ever
Nay, C65 beast 8bit (we're not counting if it reached full production, right?).
Nope, both wrong: Sam Coupe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAM_Coupé), bitches :p
Back to topic. If I read the posts after my last post correctly, Hyperion would have pay their developers not just for an X86 port, but they would alspo have to pay again for the right to use the source codes of AOS4 for the port? Or wouls any product resulting from AOS4.X source code still be covered?
They don't own the source code - the developers do - Hyperion is effectively a shell company, all developers are effectively contractors. The only have a licence to sell the binaries, which they would need to renegotiate with the devs to recompile for x86. They would have to pay off their devs in order to get the source, which I seriously doubt they have the cash to do.
Also, afaik they're only licensed to produce OS4 for PPC. They would need to re-negotiate with Amiga.Inc for that.
Effectively, they're stuck.
-
Nope, both wrong: Sam Coupe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAM_Coupé), bitches :p
They don't own the source code - the developers do - Hyperion is effectively a shell company, all developers are effectively contractors. The only have a licence to sell the binaries, which they would need to renegotiate with the devs to recompile for x86. They would have to pay off their devs in order to get the source, which I seriously doubt they have the cash to do.
Also, afaik they're only licensed to produce OS4 for PPC. They would need to re-negotiate with Amiga.Inc for that.
Effectively, they're stuck.
I thought that might ne the case. Wow, now that's a realy f'd up position for the Amiga market. Hyperion is allowed to use the terms mentioned before. AInc. can't use AmigaOS, but retains all rights including the right to the Amiga name and the copanyy they license the use of the Amiga name to isn't interested in AROS or AOS (and according to my converation with Barry he actually approached the MOS team, who told him the same thing that we've all heard - no X86 port for the foreseeable future).
This entire sistuation is only going to confuse the average consumer and make it even more impossible to create a renewed interest in the Amiga brand.
Now do you guys understand why I don't care if MOS or AROS carry an Amiga brand?
What was done in the past is cool, but it can be run on almost any platform.
What's to come in the future has to stand on its own merits (against some really well backed competitors that all offer OS' with a solid foundation and much bigger markets to draw developers).
Since a more ideal situation couldn't be negotiated, I'm not too displeased with the current situation.
I've said it before, Hyperion product acts to attract developers to the PPC market which could benefit MorphOS as well.
And AROS, beyond all understanding, is still chugging along approaching real utility.
The resurgence/re-emergence of the Amiga as a consumer brand is as unlikely as ever, but those of us in the Amiga hobbyist market now have a wider range of decent chioces than ever.
-
I thought that might ne the case. Wow, now that's a realy f'd up position for the Amiga market.
Indeed, and if there is any way of making this situation worse, I can't think of it.
Hyperion is allowed to use the terms mentioned before. AInc. can't use AmigaOS, but retains all rights including the right to the Amiga name and the copanyy they license the use of the Amiga name to isn't interested in AROS or AOS (and according to my converation with Barry he actually approached the MOS team, who told him the same thing that we've all heard - no X86 port for the foreseeable future).
The problem is that the court ruling specifically prohibits Amiga.Inc from going into competition with Hyperion. If Barry were to start selling a rebadged AROS as AmigaOS5, both Barry and Amiga.inc could well be landed in it.
That's not to say Barry can't sell Amiga brand PCs, just not with AROS or any other Amiga-like installed on it.
This entire sistuation is only going to confuse the average consumer and make it even more impossible to create a renewed interest in the Amiga brand.
Welcome to the Amiga community.
Now do you guys understand why I don't care if MOS or AROS carry an Amiga brand?
What was done in the past is cool, but it can be run on almost any platform.
What's to come in the future has to stand on its own merits (against some really well backed competitors that all offer OS' with a solid foundation and much bigger markets to draw developers).
Thing is, it's gone past that, Amiga's one and only selling point now is nostalgia, for the reasons you point to. And thanks to the hinky legal situation, the name cannot go forward at this point either.
I've said it before, Hyperion product acts to attract developers to the PPC
Hyperion has attracted nothing but flack (a lot of it well deserved) for being little more than a pariah. Under it's stewardship, the Amiga community has shrunk to around a tenth of it's size in ~2000.
I'm sorry, but I simply cannot agree to the above statement.
-
Your right about numbers. In fact you might be overestimating.
Active, paying customers in each market segment (AROS, MOS, AOS4, and Legacy systems) may number in the hundreds each, not thousands.
MOS has seen some ports from AOS4 and AROS, but most of our software comes from a handful of talented MOS developers porting from outside thiese platforms.
-
1: Time and money required to port the operating system. I have absolutely zero idea how long this would take, but I am assuming it'd be a pretty significant endeavour.
It all depends on who is doing it and with how many people, money will be quite some, but most will be licenses and patents surrounding x86.
2: Time and money required to port applications. Without app's, an OS is worthless.
Like said, most apps are ready for x86 and the ones that aren't shouldn't be that hard to convert.
3: Oh hey there AROS! What functionality does os4 give that AROS doesn't ?
Ability to run on new hardware, but that is just a driver issue, can be done for AROS also.
4: Most overlooked:
Hardware support.
AROS has been around for years and still supports a fairly limited range of hardware.
When it comes to hardware there's two options: The linux way (support it all in the kernel, which requires massive amounts of work from a large number of people) or the windows way (have the hardware manufacturer write drivers for you).
OS4 would have neither.
The assumption in these threads tends to be "we could run amiga OS on any PC and it'd be rad". And that would rad, but it won't be reality.
Again like above, you need to write better drivers, but once the port is done that shouldn't take that long.
5: User base.
Is there any actual user base in a world saturated with mature OS choices ? What do I get out of amiga os in the present day and age, that isn't already served by one of the big four (windows, linux, bsd or mac) in some flavour or form ?
I'd love to see data on this, but I heavily suspect that the amount of non-amiga folks using morph or aros is a distinct minority.
I have a hard time seeing how x86 amiga os would attract new people rather than just shuffle existing users around.
If people are willing to buy an X1000, then why wouldn't you try this ?
If OS4 x86 cost about 1/10 of an X1000 then I think more people would try that rather than an X1000.
At least you could still use an x86 machine if you don't like it.
With the X1000 your stuck and have to sell it again, and that will always be used, so less than you paid for anyway.
I agree, and if someone produced a modern PPC card today for the classic machines, I would be really interested and so would many other people I feel dabbling with classic Amiga, to the point whereby you might get renewed interesting in OS4 with the associated renewed development projects
[/FONT][/COLOR]
Well if it is possible, let's just say we have a new like Cyberstorm PPC II.
It's a 060 with PowerPC A2 or PowerPC e5500 (Freescale Semiconductor).
Then what ?
Within 3 or 4 years it will be outdated again and has be designed again with a new PPC.
Besides that, you also need to find enough 060's for the boards.
And you can't push much more out of a 060, eventually it will cause all kinds of problems and die if it is overclocked.
-
Now do you guys understand why I don't care if MOS or AROS carry an Amiga brand?
Noo, please no! Don't pollute MorphOS with flaky trade marks! MorphOS has its own trade mark now, with its own values. It's new and fresh, free from the crap that burdens the "Amiga" mark since 1.5 decade of mis-management, the visual style of its logotype looks really good aesthetically, and the blue Morpho butterfly is really beautiful! The name also alludes to "Metamorphosis", the process in which a life form transforms into another, like the old platform morphed into the new MorphOS.
It's all very clever!
:)
-
On the other hand, the 1.0 release of AROS ABIs are expected in a few months
Hopefully but I can't promise anything. Luckily I found some free time in the last weeks to work on ABI V1.
and will prompt recompilation of all the apps due to incompatibility with AmigaOS 3.1 sources.
To be correct: the x86 ABI has just grown over the years without being thought through. Some bad choices have been made. We did not want to break old programs every now and then and implemented non-backwards compatible changes in a branch. Unfortunately I am to only one active in the branch and real life has been interfering with my AROS work.
The official ABI for m68k has always been OS 3.x compatibility.
greets,
Staf.
-
Noo, please no! Don't pollute MorphOS with flaky trade marks! MorphOS has its own trade mark now, with its own values. It's new and fresh, free from the crap that burdens the "Amiga" mark since 1.5 decade of mis-management, the visual style of its logotype looks really good aesthetically, and the blue Morpho butterfly is really beautiful! The name also alludes to "Metamorphosis", the process in which a life form transforms into another, like the old platform morphed into the new MorphOS.
It's all very clever!
:)
Not only is it clever, it functional. And when the developers make a promise or a statement they're make good on their words, so it can't be Amiga
-
Out of curiosity if the x1000 used x86 instead of PPC then how much could we expect to pay for it? How much money would i expect to save? This is theoretical and not taking into consideration hyperion or amigainc licenses or whatever...
-
Out of curiosity if the x1000 used x86 instead of PPC then how much could we expect to pay for it? How much money would i expect to save? This is theoretical and not taking into consideration hyperion or amigainc licenses or whatever...
If we take XMOS out of the picture and compare performancePPC vs performancex86, I'd say you would pay 4-5 times less(if X1000 price is somewhere around 2000 euros, which is likely) for hardware + AOS4 license. With XMOS included, I'd say half as much, but that's probably guessing wildly.
-
If we take XMOS out of the picture and compare performancePPC vs performancex86, I'd say you would pay 4-5 times less(if X1000 price is somewhere around 2000 euros, which is likely) for hardware + AOS4 license. With XMOS included, I'd say half as much, but that's probably guessing wildly.
I'd say the first estimate is accurate. A full sized ATX motherboard with two PCIe X16 slots (to match the X1000) would raise the price slightly so 500 EUR is reasonable.
But the second estimates a little high. XMOS processors are a low cost item. If you have to have it on board, then yes its going to cost more because you're going to have to produce a custom motherboard. But what's wrong with an X?MOS plug in expansion card (then you only need the card).
Still better yet, stick with the first solution because XMOS is only really suited to hacking.
-
If it was an x86, it would probably be $35-$150 for the motherboard itself.
You can get XCore development kits for $100. Dev kits are normally much more costly than final product, but that's impossible to say for certain. The chips are under $20 even in quantities of one.
Comparable CPU's are hard to find, but would probably be around $30.
My guess is $165 to $280 cost + the markup assuming you used mostly off the shelf parts.
-
I'd say the first estimate is accurate. A full sized ATX motherboard with two PCIe X16 slots (to match the X1000) would raise the price slightly so 500 EUR is reasonable.
But the second estimates a little high. XMOS processors are a low cost item. If you have to have it on board, then yes its going to cost more because you're going to have to produce a custom motherboard. But what's wrong with an X?MOS plug in expansion card (then you only need the card).
Still better yet, stick with the first solution because XMOS is only really suited to hacking.
Actually, I overestimated PA6T performance... An even lower price may be possible, but let's stick to 500 euros for the entire system without the monitor. That's, I think, very realistic.
-
They don't own the source code - the developers do - Hyperion is effectively a shell company, all developers are effectively contractors. The only have a licence to sell the binaries, which they would need to renegotiate with the devs to recompile for x86. They would have to pay off their devs in order to get the source, which I seriously doubt they have the cash to do.
Also, afaik they're only licensed to produce OS4 for PPC. They would need to re-negotiate with Amiga.Inc for that.
Effectively, they're stuck.
Hmm, i tend to think it's not so!
"Within the framework of the settlement agreement Hyperion is granted an exclusive, perpetual, worldwide right to AmigaOS 3.1 in order to use, develop, modify, commercialize, distribute and market AmigaOS 4.x (and subsequent versions of AmigaOS including without limitation AmigaOS 5) in any form, on any medium and for any current or future hardware platform under the exclusive trademark "AmigaOS" (Amiga operating system) and using other associated trademarks (such as the "BoingBall" logo)."
I see no reason for them to ask permission if they actually wanted to port to x86 or xwhatever! Let's just face it: they don't want to!
-
Wow. Paying 500 Euros instead of 2000 Euros!
Why are we even debating this topic then? If the x1000 sold for 500 Euros i would go and buy one in the next 30 minutes! On the other hand the x1000 that sells for 2000 Euros.... :confused:
I don't understand this thread :confused:
-
Hmm, i tend to think it's not so!
"Within the framework of the settlement agreement Hyperion is granted an exclusive, perpetual, worldwide right to AmigaOS 3.1 in order to use, develop, modify, commercialize, distribute and market AmigaOS 4.x (and subsequent versions of AmigaOS including without limitation AmigaOS 5) in any form, on any medium and for any current or future hardware platform under the exclusive trademark "AmigaOS" (Amiga operating system) and using other associated trademarks (such as the "BoingBall" logo)."
I see no reason for them to ask permission if they actually wanted to port to x86 or xwhatever! Let's just face it: they don't want to!
But how do they do it without the rights to the source code for AOS4? Do they move to AOS5 (without AOS4 source code) like AInc. was discussing (via their India subsidiary)?
-
I've only read a few posts in this thread, so I appolgise if these points had been covered already, but I just thought I'd throw in my two cents.....
Well, firstly, as for "what happens next", that question can be applied equally to the current "custom" ppc solutions, the only real difference being the buy in cost is a heck of a lot more obtainable by people if x86 was targetted. Now I know the often used arguement to this is that if people have an x86 machine they'll just use windows/mac osx/linux becasue (insert reason here), but I dont buy that. Personally Im a big amiga fan (all flavors) and have been since it's inception... if I want to use an amiga system I'll get ahold of the appropriate hardware to do so as I always have and I cant see why this would be different for other "amiga" fans apart from maybe part time tinkerers, but then they're hardly going to buy an expensive "custom" solution either. Additionally, I, as a lot of other people have a dedicated Windows machine besides my "amiga" systems (or Mac, or linux box depending on the person) to cover the few things I need/want from modern computing that amiga doesnt yet cover so again I'm hardly going to install Windows on my "amiga" hardware. As for those that had no x86 machine previously, why, after all this time would they suddenly switch to what theyve been avoiding all along? Anyway, at the end of the day I guess it doesnt matter, OS4.x is a ppc based system, as much demand as there is for it on x86 (as evident by the countless os4.x on x86 threads) it doesnt appear that it will happen. AROS is here, it's free and is progressing nicely. Hopefully with time the demand for OS4.x on x86 will dwindle because of AROS. As it is AROS can already exchange blows with OS4.x in terms of advantages.
-
This question needed to be asked and acted on 10-15 years ago, its taken that long for people to realize that CPU architecture is largely irrelevant, (some still haven't).
I think it's definately too late for the Amiga platform to have any significance in the modern computing world.
Best to enjoy it as a hobby and bury dead horses.
-
Coldheartedly, I have to admit that indeed it is too late for Amiga OS to have any significance on the future of the computer industry. The amount of money & effort required to make it a viable contender is too excruciating to reckon.
Nonetheless, no reason to panic. Once, we accept Amiga OS for what it is, in the context of modern computing, development can continue on a more hobbyist level. That is why, hardware and software for any future Amiga will cost a lot of money. Nobody, is going to invest in the Amiga if they don`t have a profit.
x86 way? I honestly don`t think that Amiga OS has any chance x86wise. It might be cheaper. But then, so is Linux which is still being used by a minority of users. Furthermore, there already exists a x86 port of AmigaOS, in the name of AROS.
Personally, I`m on standby. I wanna see how the new sam460 and X1000 will fare. If they seem to be doing good and if the prices are right (sure!!!) I just might hop on the Amiga OS 4.1 bandwagon and be a happy ppc user.
-
A lot of people seem to have the whole x86 thing the wrong way around! Having your favourite Hobby OS on the x86 doesn't magically make it any more or less desirable, what it does do, is lower the barrier to entry and keeps prices down for the hardcore fans. Win win... Really simple guys!
-
A lot of people seem to have the whole x86 thing the wrong way around! Having your favourite Hobby OS on the x86 doesn't magically make it any more or less desirable, what it does do, is lower the barrier to entry and keeps prices down for the hardcore fans. Win win... Really simple guys!
If you want an Amiga like OS on x86 (AOS4 is not AmigaOS), then AROS sounds perfect for you.
I can't see an x86 port of AOS4 happening ever. It might be great for the users, but it pretty much destroys any chance of making any money.
They wouldn't even be able to raise venture capitalist funding, because all they'd be doing is producing a competitor to windows & linux that will never gain a significant portion of the market.
-
A lot of people seem to have the whole x86 thing the wrong way around! Having your favourite Hobby OS on the x86 doesn't magically make it any more or less desirable
Except it *does* to quite a few Amiga users. Even the PPC is controversial still to some Amiga users.
I use, and have contributed code to, AROS, but I also detest the x86 architecture. I'm pragmatic and x86 hardware because I need a main machine that is fast, and x86_64 is far cleaner, but for hack value the PPC is far more appealing and the M68k even more.
The thing is, AmigaOS4 (or 5 or whatever) on x86 wouldn't interest me much. I have AROS for that need. On PPC it's a different deal, beause of the hack value. I'll pay a premium for that. A big one. From the looks of it, I'm not the only one.
Now, I'm sure there are people who'd buy AmigaOS4 for x86 in a heatbeat, but who can't justify a SAM or X1000, but likewise there will be people for whom AmigaOS4 on x86 would be completely uninteresting, but who'll happily pay for the PPC version even if it is more expensive
Hyperion has to weight the odds of the former group being larger than the second group by a sufficient factor to offset the porting cost, and there really is no good basis for making a judgement about that.
It is naive at best to assume that non-Amiga users would flock to AmigaOS if it was available at current price for x86, for example - it'd be compared to Linux, Windows and OS X, and for users without a strong sentimental bond to the Amiga, it's still lacking too many things to be a serious contender. So the queston is how many Amiga fans are out there without PPC or classic hardware that'd buy OS4 for x86 instead of just using UAE or AROS if they decide to go x86?
They'd make a big investment in porting (new drivers, endianness issues - and in my experience porting Amiga code to AROS, there are likely to be many) while splitting the software market for OS4 in two and risk alienating many of their customers, with little hope of any big payoff from new users.
They're far better off improving their current product for now, and quietly making it more solid and more portable and more up to scratch compared to other OS's, and build up a better set of OS4 software that is more easily ported (discourage ASM), and then *if* they decide to do a switch, do it down the line if they have something that might actually compete with other x86 OS's for non-Amiga users.
-
AOS4 (AmigaOS 4) is not AmigaOS
Only Amiga makes it possible!
-
and then *if* they decide to do a switch, do it down the line if they have something that might actually compete with other x86 OS's for non-Amiga users.
Down the line? IMHO, X1000 will probably be the last OS4 PPC AmigaOne... if it ever happens, that is. And Sam460 is unlikely to keep the fan base going, especially priced the way it is. The only way forward might be the Classics market(with PPC acc cards), which is both bigger and more stable. And surprise, surprise... OS 4.1 is coming for the Classics. Curious timing, would you say? Especially in the light of previous discussions that there will not be a OS 4.1 for 68k systems...:)
But it would be hard to blame Hyperion for this. The death warrant for the amigaOS and PPC configuration was signed a long way ago.
-
There's nothing inherently wrong with PPC or superior with X86, it simply was a case of demand driving down the price. Before the switch Apple was perhaps 4 % of the market, not enough to make a difference to IBM. When Apple wanted a more powerful PPC for laptops IBM told them to just wait and we'll get around to it, eventually, some day, real soon now. So Apple gave in. Even the desktop chips, the "military spec" G5s were falling desperately behind X86. The choice was clear, expensive, slow, rare PPC or cheap, fast, common X86. The choice was obvious.
-
And surprise, surprise... OS 4.1 is coming for the Classics
Sure it is! The problem is what to do with OS 4.1 on a classic Amiga powered by a low clocked ppc. I mean most software for OS 4.1 don`t run fast enough on a sam 440. What luck would they have on a 200MHz ppc accelerator for a classic Amiga?
-
I mean most software for OS 4.1 don`t run fast enough on a sam 440.
You are badly informed, as a Sam440 runs most OS4 software very nicely (the main exception being 3D games more complex than Quake 2, and playing videos at High Def resolutions).
-
They don't own the source code - the developers do - Hyperion ... afaik they're only licensed to produce OS4 for PPC. They would need to re-negotiate with Amiga.Inc for that.
That is so wrong & badly informed that I just had to log-in to correct it :(
According to the Settlement between Hyperion & Amiga Inc, Hyperion own AmigaOS4 lock, stock & two smoking barrels (sorry for the film reference). As such they may port it to whatever hardware they like (including x86 if they wanted), without asking anyone. If in doubt, please look at parts 1.(a), 1.(b) & 1.(c) of the Settlement. However, Amiga Inc does still own AmigaOS 3.1 (which is the "Software" the Settlement talks about).
-
So this comes up constantly. "Amiga should move to x86 and everything would be way better".
I don't think its all that simple really. Here's some things that'd at least warrant exploring:
I think you got all the points exactly right, even if almost no-one else posting here agrees!
1: Time and money required to port the operating system. I have absolutely zero idea how long this would take, but I am assuming it'd be a pretty significant endeavour.
Yes, mainly because:
(a) AmigaOS assumes a Big Endian CPU (and x86 is Little Endian). I think there is a way around this, but most people seem to disagree with me, or at least recoil in horror at my suggestion!
(b) AmigaOS4 apparently assumes a PPC architecture, and reworking the low-levels for x86 would be a significant undertaking. I'm a bit surprised about this, given it's supposed to have a HAL, but then again the if they added too much CPU abstraction they might have (i) terrible performance, or (ii) have spent a lot of money without any apparent gain when PPC was the only goal.
2: Time and money required to port applications.Without app's, an OS is worthless.
Contrary to the glib "just recompile" replies, AmigaOS4 has a nice library of (OS4 specific) software, and recompiling these would:
(a) be extremely time consuming (OS4Depot currently has 2700 packages).
(b) wouldn't actually work without a lot of fixes, due to Endian issues.
(c) not be possible in more than a few instances, due to lack of source code (not everyone has stayed around for the entire rollercoaster ride of OS4 development, even if things are looking good in the last year or so).
(d) some software authors would refuse to recompile for x86 (perhaps stuidly, but it's their perogative).
3: Oh hey there AROS! What functionality does os4 give that AROS doesn't ?
I think quite a lot (especially feature wise), but any answers would likely be construed as an attack on AROS, so I decline to list anything specific.
4: Most overlooked:
Hardware support.
AROS has been around for years and still supports a fairly limited range of hardware.
When it comes to hardware there's two options: The linux way (support it all in the kernel, which requires massive amounts of work from a large number of people) or the windows way (have the hardware manufacturer write drivers for you).
OS4 would have neither.
Glib answers like "use OSS drivers" overlook the fact that Linux drivers are virtually useless for AmigaOS, due to the extremely different driver models.
The only solution would be to hand-pick a few specific x86 motherboards, but you better be damn sure they will still be produced in a couple of years time, or the cost of supporting them might not be worth the effort.
The assumption in these threads tends to be "we could run amiga OS on any PC and it'd be rad". And that would rad, but it won't be reality.
Absolutely - I'd love to see AmigaOS4 running on a cheap x86 machine. But it's simply not practical.
Pessimistic ? Maybe. But I think the choices that were made (powerPC) were good choices at the time. I think it's too late at this point to go back.
I think you are right. This means the price of entry for AmigaOS4 is higher than a dirty little PC that runs Windows, but then I bash my head against the wall all the time when I use Windows for all it's stupid idiosyncrasies, and coming back to AmigaOS4 is such a relief! I'm not unhappy to have paid a higher price of entry...
-
Unless someone comes out with a 1.0 ghz or faster pcc card for classic amigas, os4.1 on it is a joke. What I get to just load os4 and look at it?
Way to slow to do anything at 200mhz or less, unless you just want to load it and look at it... Oh maybe you can run a text editor or paint...
They wasted how much time on the classic support? ppc cards are WAY too slow to be useful at all running os4.
Steven
Steven
-
I don't agree. I think AmigaOS should be price competitive with PCs. SAM & X1000 make Mac price/performance ratios look bargain basement. As I said if nothing else interesting was occurring in the computer world then it wouldn't be so bad, trouble is the computer world is looking more interesting now than it did in the last 16 years. Tablets, game consoles, the who "i" series of devices, TVs with 3D and built in internet software. The list goes on. I simply can't afford 1500 plus quid on one device.
I think you are right. This means the price of entry for AmigaOS4 is higher than a dirty little PC that runs Windows, but then I bash my head against the wall all the time when I use Windows for all it's stupid idiosyncrasies, and coming back to AmigaOS4 is such a relief! I'm not unhappy to have paid a higher price of entry...
-
Except it *does* to quite a few Amiga users. Even the PPC is controversial still to some Amiga users.
I use, and have contributed code to, AROS, but I also detest the x86 architecture. I'm pragmatic and x86 hardware because I need a main machine that is fast, and x86_64 is far cleaner, but for hack value the PPC is far more appealing and the M68k even more.
The thing is, AmigaOS4 (or 5 or whatever) on x86 wouldn't interest me much. I have AROS for that need. On PPC it's a different deal, beause of the hack value. I'll pay a premium for that. A big one. From the looks of it, I'm not the only one.
Now, I'm sure there are people who'd buy AmigaOS4 for x86 in a heatbeat, but who can't justify a SAM or X1000, but likewise there will be people for whom AmigaOS4 on x86 would be completely uninteresting, but who'll happily pay for the PPC version even if it is more expensive
Hyperion has to weight the odds of the former group being larger than the second group by a sufficient factor to offset the porting cost, and there really is no good basis for making a judgement about that.
It is naive at best to assume that non-Amiga users would flock to AmigaOS if it was available at current price for x86, for example - it'd be compared to Linux, Windows and OS X, and for users without a strong sentimental bond to the Amiga, it's still lacking too many things to be a serious contender. So the queston is how many Amiga fans are out there without PPC or classic hardware that'd buy OS4 for x86 instead of just using UAE or AROS if they decide to go x86?
They'd make a big investment in porting (new drivers, endianness issues - and in my experience porting Amiga code to AROS, there are likely to be many) while splitting the software market for OS4 in two and risk alienating many of their customers, with little hope of any big payoff from new users.
They're far better off improving their current product for now, and quietly making it more solid and more portable and more up to scratch compared to other OS's, and build up a better set of OS4 software that is more easily ported (discourage ASM), and then *if* they decide to do a switch, do it down the line if they have something that might actually compete with other x86 OS's for non-Amiga users.
I totally agree with this post :) And I also think the guys who are making the PPc stuff are not over pricing it. It boils down to economies of scale - small production runs = high end cost and large production runs = low end cost. I had the same in my model car hobby where a bag of seemingly innocuous screws would cost £8?!?!
You are paying a lot for PPc, but if it is your interest i.e. modern Amiga, then surely it is worth the additional cost to keep something original and unique alive? I would hate Amiga running on X86, it would just be another X86 OS.. Does everyone else not love the originality and uniqueness of the hardware? It always was expensive anyway back in the day, but with a really long life span :)
I am into the classics and will likely buy a A630 board from Individual Computers when it comes out - I bet it will be retailed around £170 - which for a 25mhz board with 32meg of ram in the year 2010, when for £170 I could buy a Netbook probably seems like madness. But to me I would be buying something very special, very unique and would also be ensuring people like Individual Computers would be brave enough to keep producing interesting pieces of hardware for my Amiga classic.
I think for the long term guys who have been buying Amiga throughout and have been into it from the year dot - if this platform is really your bag, which I am sure it is, I would try and support the guys producing modern Amiga stuff before they shut up shop for good. I wouldn't worry about trying to take on Microsoft or Apple - Amiga as a modern commercial brand is all about survival at the moment I believe.. Time to get behind the people who have licenced the Amiga brand, or let it die.... Would I? I am very new back to Amiga as a hobbiest, and for me it is hobby computing - I would seriously consider it if they produced a new PPc trapdoor card :) Just for the shear hell of it! :)
Hope this doesn't offend anyone, only a personal opinion :)
-
Unless someone comes out with a 1.0 ghz or faster pcc card for classic amigas, os4.1 on it is a joke. What I get to just load os4 and look at it?
Way to slow to do anything at 200mhz or less, unless you just want to load it and look at it... Oh maybe you can run a text editor or paint...
They wasted how much time on the classic support? ppc cards are WAY too slow to be useful at all running os4.
Utter crap!
A1200 BPPC/200, BVision, PCMCIA Ethernet running an emulated 68k ASM driver, playing MPEG2 video over the network from a samba share.
Full frame rate, no skipping or tearing, smooth, audio is perfect and the machine is still as responsive and multitasks just as well as it is when not playing the video.
Troll much?
-
Utter crap!
A1200 BPPC/200, BVision, PCMCIA Ethernet running an emulated 68k ASM driver, playing MPEG2 video over the network from a samba share.
Full frame rate, no skipping or tearing, smooth, audio is perfect and the machine is still as responsive and multitasks just as well as it is when not playing the video.
Troll much?
MPEG2 ?
Welcome to 2010, people now use MP4 and I doubt it runs on your machine... even with frameskiping and no sound.
I also doubt your machine can cope with DVD decoding (and I'm not even talking about bluray, which is standard...).
It's no crap. These machines are very limited...
-
Again, without wanting to cause offence because it is a brilliant achievement that OS4 exists with such a strong vibrant community :). If OS4 went X86 and could run on standard hardware PC, isn't there a danger that folk would begin to see some of the more limited areas of OS4, and simply go for the easy option of dual booting something like Linux or Windows. OS4 on X86 might have the opposite effect with the platform decaying and seeing little more development due to the ease of access of alternatives? I am a romantic, but there wouldn't even be the magic with the interesting hardware, as the OS would be sitting on some dull, boring PC hardware - within a dull grey box :(
-
Again, without wanting to cause offence because it is a brilliant achievement that OS4 exists with such a strong vibrant community :). If OS4 went X86 and could run on standard hardware PC, isn't there a danger that folk would begin to see some of the more limited areas of OS4, and simply go for the easy option of dual booting something like Linux or Windows. OS4 on X86 might have the opposite effect with the platform decaying and seeing little more development due to the ease of access of alternatives? I am a romantic, but there wouldn't even be the magic with the interesting hardware, as the OS would be sitting on some dull, boring PC hardware - within a dull grey box :(
Don't you think 95% of the people here *already* own a PC or Mac ?
Being able to run OS4 on this machine would just mean they wouldn't have to spend so many cash to enjoy the very limited OS4 experience. So I would say on the contrary: it would bring more people to try it...
The people that spend xxx$ today to buy a custom slow machine to run OS4 will still spend ~100$ to use the OS on their PC...
-
MPEG2 ?
Welcome to 2010, people now use MP4 and I doubt it runs on your machine... even with frameskiping and no sound.
I also doubt your machine can cope with DVD decoding (and I'm not even talking about bluray, which is standard...).
It's no crap. These machines are very limited...
Why on earth would anyone even want to play a Bluray on an A1200?
Seriously, geeks like you who wet themselves at shiny new toys (As opposed to nerds who actually know what they are talking about and enjoy making stuff do what it wasn't designed to do just because we can) really don't get it at all.
If I wanted to play a Bluray (Which I don't, as I have more creative things to do with my time than waste it watching ) then I'd buy a Bluray player and a TV.
If I want to make hardware from 20yrs ago do things the engineers never imagined (Which I do, see "creative things" above) then I'll carry do what I'm doing with C64's, Amiga's and other eclectic pieces of hardware that are probably older than you.
-
Don't you think 95% of the people here *already* own a PC or Mac ?
Being able to run OS4 on this machine would just mean they wouldn't have to spend so many cash to enjoy the very limited OS4 experience. So I would say on the contrary: it would bring more people to try it...
The people that spend xxx$ today to buy a custom slow machine to run OS4 will still spend ~100$ to use the OS on their PC...
I wouldn't sadly :( For me, non custom hardware + x86 OS4 is not an Amiga - personal opinion obviously :) For example, I'm only going to use UAE(?) to move files between my Amiga and PC not for emulation :)
My 10p worth anyway - it will be interesting to see what happens :)
-
Why on earth would anyone even want to play a Bluray on an A1200?
Seriously, geeks like you who wet themselves at shiny new toys (As opposed to nerds who actually know what they are talking about and enjoy making stuff do what it wasn't designed to do just because we can) really don't get it at all.
If I wanted to play a Bluray (Which I don't, as I have more creative things to do with my time than waste it watching Zionist propaganda in the form of "entertainment") then I'd buy a Bluray player and a TV.
If I want to make hardware from 20yrs ago do things the engineers never imagined (Which I do, see "creative things" above) then I'll carry do what I'm doing with C64's, Amiga's and other eclectic pieces of hardware that are probably older than you.
That's what I like about classic Amiga - seeing the impossible made possible - and creative ingenuity at its very finest :) Even modern OS4 Amiga in all its various forms - its interesting to me because it is original and not brought down tescos in a brown box for £50 quid like modern machines are.......
-
Why on earth would anyone even want to play a Bluray on an A1200?
Thanks for calling me a geek. But someone still using in 2010 a 300Mhz-accelerated original 14/25Mhz Amiga from 1993 is more likely to be a geek than I am...
Sorry to disappoint you but the C64 isn't older than me, although lots of machines were built before I was born...
I like to see people doing things you couldn't expect to see with old machines too, including nice C64 demos, new OS for c64/amstrad cpc,... Yet, I fail to see the interest of the rather hungry OS4 with a Amiga+PowerPC today when compared with OS3.x + wup/pup.
-
Way to slow to do anything at 200mhz or less, unless you just want to load it and look at it...
Oh, so just like OS3.x on 68K then? I mean come on, you are talking sub 100MHz here, how does it even boot? :rolleyes:
-
Or, you know, you could be adult about it and either hit the report button, or add him to your ignore list.
-
Or, you know, you could be adult about it and either hit the report button, or add him to your ignore list.
Good point. Report made.
-
FFS, everybody quote it and then hit the report button, why dontcha? :lol:
This is a site about Amigas, not a Nazi or Islama-fascist site.
So, object to the phrase "Zionist" and then go on to use "Islama-facist" ?
How ironic.
Anyway, back on topic, please.
-
Thanks for calling me a geek. But someone still using in 2010 a 300Mhz-accelerated original 14/25Mhz Amiga from 1993 is more likely to be a geek than I am...
Nope, a geek would desire to run it on shiny new fast hardware, a nerd on an ancient piles of shit (relatively) and optimise the hell out of it.
Sorry to disappoint you but the C64 isn't older than me, although lots of machines were built before I was born...
I like to see people doing things you couldn't expect to see with old machines too, including nice C64 demos, new OS for c64/amstrad cpc,... Yet, I fail to see the interest of the rather hungry OS4 with a Amiga+PowerPC today when compared with OS3.x + wup/pup.
That's the point you keep missing.
People do that because they can. Whether you have the same interest or not is completely irrelevant.
-
Digital Resistance! Redemption and Freedom!
http://dynebolic.org/
Nice to see these guys are still going.
-
et, I fail to see the interest of the rather hungry OS4 with a Amiga+PowerPC today when compared with OS3.x + wup/pup.
I used to think like that, but the reality is that PPC native apps running on a PPC native OS without cache flushing context switches and relying on a CPU that in my case had 1/10th the clockspeed to handle IO etc, tends to be a bit quicker. I mean, who would have thought it?
-
@nicholas & Iggy
If you wish to discuss the political ideology of Zionism, take it to the coffee house/politics section. This is not the place.
-
@nicholas & Iggy
If you wish to discuss the political ideology of Zionism, take it to the coffee house/politics section. This is not the place.
Seconded. This thread is close to getting locked. Get back on topic and take political ideology to private conversation.
-
Digital Resistance! Redemption and Freedom!
http://dynebolic.org/
Nice to see these guys are still going.
No updates since 2007 though. :(
-
Darn, maybe they're busy with other projects. http://dyne.org/
It was a fun little livecd.
Hasciicam looked cool, never got it working though.
-
Darn, maybe they're busy with other projects. http://dyne.org/
It was a fun little livecd.
Hasciicam looked cool, never got it working though.
It would seem they are taking their lead from certain companies in our little community!
http://www.pledgie.com/campaigns/13590
-
Wow, I'm still on their donors list, from back before they had a goal.
Doesn't look like they'll ever hit 20k!
-
"Islama-fascist"?
How adult and non-discriminatory of you Mr hypocrite.
If you define "hypocrite" as someone who is offended by your anti-Semitic remarks and suggests you take them to another site where they might be better received, then yes, I'm a hypocrite.
-
Wow, I'm still on their donors list, from back before they had a goal.
Doesn't look like they'll ever hit 20k!
Maybe they should hit up Commodore USA for money and become the latest new-AmigaOS? ;)
-
Time to run off and register Commodyne.com .net and .org, I think!
-
Time to run off and register Commodyne.com .net and .org, I think!
Make sure to make outlandish claims about your future products and start accepting pre-orders before even showing anything of substance!
-
The assumption in these threads tends to be "we could run amiga OS on any PC and it'd be rad". And that would rad, but it won't be reality.
Absolutely - I'd love to see AmigaOS4 running on a cheap x86 machine. But it's simply not practical.
What you say is true. I certainly don't disagree. But leaving it on PPC is even less practical. You need developers to build your code. For that you need money. To do it effectively, you need lots of money. Selling PPC machines to 10 users at 1500$ a pop ain't gonna do it. Selling x86 machines to 500 users at 300$ a pop stands a better chance. And the lower the price, the more likely you will sell it to more users. This too is reality.
So, for many of us here, the argument ain't "doing x86 is rad!" Instead, the argument is "doing PPC is suicide!"
-
Really, guys.
I took a break from woodworking and checked my email only to find a bin full of reported posts from this topic. Don't feed the trolls. Report them. Don't let them ruin topics.
I'm opening this back up. Play nice. Thanks.
Now back to my afore mentioned Woodworking.
-
So, for many of us here, the argument ain't "doing x86 is rad!" Instead, the argument is "doing PPC is suicide!"
Totally agreed.
I'm not against using available PPC hardware or PPC based OS's, but in another few years they will be just as outdated and hard to find as classic 68k based hardware is now.
-
I had always thought AmigaOS on a Cell processor would simply rock. It's basically the next generation PPC is it not?
slaapliedje
-
I know the PS3 uses 3 Cell processors. What I'm not sure of is are they full general CPUs or are they specific in function or somewhere inbetween?
-
What you say is true. I certainly don't disagree. But leaving it on PPC is even less practical. You need developers to build your code. For that you need money. To do it effectively, you need lots of money. Selling PPC machines to 10 users at 1500$ a pop ain't gonna do it. Selling x86 machines to 500 users at 300$ a pop stands a better chance. And the lower the price, the more likely you will sell it to more users. This too is reality.
So, for many of us here, the argument ain't "doing x86 is rad!" Instead, the argument is "doing PPC is suicide!"
There is no reason other than money and time that Hyperion and partners could not do what Apple did in moving from PPC. Just pick specific "PC" hardware to support, just like they do now. They could then take advantage of the economies of scale in the market for "PC" hardware.
I know some of you out there would still complain about being locked in to only the supported hardware, just like now, but the cost of purchasing a system would be so much cheaper.
-
I know the PS3 uses 3 Cell processors. What I'm not sure of is are they full general CPUs or are they specific in function or somewhere inbetween?
From what people using linux on PS3 have said, it's dog slow - considerably slower than the G5's it is often compared against.
Something about it being an in order processor verses the G5's out of order execution. Also the SPEs are virtually useless outside of a few very specific purposes and they require quite a bit of hand tuning to get any real performance out of...
Anyway, great in principle, but in practice... At least with Linux not so much.
-
I know some of you out there would still complain about being locked in to only the supported hardware, just like now, but the cost of purchasing a system would be so much cheaper.
Mini-itx/EPIA. As platforms go, they're fairly consistent and pretty cost effective.
-
I know the PS3 uses 3 Cell processors. What I'm not sure of is are they full general CPUs or are they specific in function or somewhere inbetween?
There is only one CELL processor in the PS3. The CELL Processor has 8 'cores'. The main one, the PPU, is the same as one of the three cores in the Xbox360's Xenon CPU, the remainder 'cores' in CELL are weaker units called SPUs. Also I think the CELL PPU can only execute a single thread*, but the Xenon CPU cores can each execute two threads*
CELL probably isn't suited to running an OS unlike Xenon which runs some cut down version of a Microsoft OS already seeing as Xbox uses DirectX and standard ATI graphics controller. Also CELL is much more expensive to produce than Xenon for IBM. Neither are as powerful as an i7 but still Xenon is the ONLY CPU any one thinking of designing an OS4 compatible motherboard should be looking at, there is no excuse for G5 OTT priced or G4 underpowered stuff from the mid 00s ;)
*never trust the internet