Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Heiroglyph on October 23, 2010, 08:00:02 PM
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As stated at AmiWest 2010, they still have no interest in x86.
I suppose selling a handful outdated slow overpriced computers somehow makes them more money than selling good software that runs on fast commodity hardware.
Greed > user experience.
Unbelievable.
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They are just waiting for Quantum Computers.
:)
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As stated at AmiWest 2010, they still have no interest in x86.
I suppose selling a handful outdated slow overpriced computers somehow makes them more money than selling good software that runs on fast commodity hardware.
Greed > user experience.
Unbelievable.
Unbelievable? Not really.
Ben Hermans is nothing if not consistent.
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As stated at AmiWest 2010, they still have no interest in x86.
I suppose selling a handful outdated slow overpriced computers somehow makes them more money than selling good software that runs on fast commodity hardware.
Greed > user experience.
Unbelievable.
Well they are never going to make a profit if they keep on going with their ideas and not using everyday hardware.
No profit = bankrupt
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The day Amiga goes x86 is the day I retire from the scene.
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No profit = bankrupt
Hyperion so far as I can tell has been a hobby company pretty much since they pushed to get the OS4 development licence.
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The day Amiga goes x86 is the day I retire from the scene.
+1
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Hyperion so far as I can tell has been a hobby company pretty much since they pushed to get the OS4 development licence.
Same thing, unless someone is funding them, they won't survive if no one buys the machines.
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I am really doubting that their primary revenue stream is the X1000.
To be honest though, are there any actual interest in amiga OS4 for x86 ?
What is to be gained from competing in a tiny tiny tiny market that AROS has a massive headstart on ?
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By the same token, why compete against them and have to develop hardware as well?
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By the same token, why compete against them and have to develop hardware as well?
So far, Acube has developed the hardware and they've just supplied the OS, so no loss there. OS development is not an easy job, but it doesn't require a factory anywhere.
From the interviews with the guy in charge of Hyperion, it seems that the X1000 is very much a vanity project, that he is hoping to break even on.
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From the interviews with the guy in charge of Hyperion, it seems that the X1000 is very much a vanity project, that he is hoping to break even on.
That would be Trevor Dickinson, one of the A-eon partners, not Hyperion.
Well, their(Hyperion, Hermans) stand against x86 is well known for years. I guess admitting defeat may be too much for some egos. Maybe ARM, but that is still a distant future (possibility?) for high-performance desktops.
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Same thing, unless someone is funding them, they won't survive if no one buys the machines.
The point I was getting at was that they're not a company in the strictest sense of the word. There is nothing to go bankrupt so far as I can tell because everything is done by third parties. The only employee I'm aware of is Hermans himself. Even the Friedens are independent of the company as was shown in legal wrangling over the ExecSG kernel.
Any normal for profit organisation would have folded long before now or moved onto other markets. Hyperion are as much a shell as Amiga.Inc was/is.
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From the interviews with the guy in charge of Hyperion, it seems that the X1000 is very much a vanity project, that he is hoping to break even on.
I have a lot more respect for that point of view.
If you are really passionate about it and not just trying to monopolize the market into a corner, that's great.
I just wish Aros had the apparent control of the Amiga market that Hyperion seems to have. That project fits my views of the future much better.
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So far, Acube has developed the hardware
I thought that Sam was an off the shelf board for the embedded sector that just happened to be available? Or am I thinking of something else here?
From the interviews with the guy in charge of Hyperion, it seems that the X1000 is very much a vanity project, that he is hoping to break even on.
Yeah pretty much.
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That would be Trevor Dickinson, one of the A-eon partners, not Hyperion.
Well, their(Hyperion, Hermans) stand against x86 is well known for years. I guess admitting defeat may be too much for some egos. Maybe ARM, but that is still a distant future (possibility?) for high-performance desktops.
ah, I got the people confused.Thank you for the correction
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I thought that Sam was an off the shelf board for the embedded sector that just happened to be available? Or am I thinking of something else here?
yeah, I didn't mean to imply they had developed it specifically FOR amiga OS. It just happened to work out well for everybody.
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So far, Acube has developed the hardware and they've just supplied the OS, so no loss there. OS development is not an easy job, but it doesn't require a factory anywhere.
From the interviews with the guy in charge of Hyperion, it seems that the X1000 is very much a vanity project, that he is hoping to break even on.
Why would someone running a business just hope to break even on a new project ?
With a profit they could go for a new Amiga using x86 and new hardware like USB 3.0, SATA600 and HDMI 1.4 and whatever you can think of.
If you have OS4 going x86, then your done.
But the main problem I think is licenses, patents and all other things.
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Why would someone running a business just hope to break even on a new project ?
With a profit they could go for a new Amiga using x86 and new hardware like USB 3.0, SATA600 and HDMI 1.4 and whatever you can think of.
If you have OS4 going x86, then your done.
But the main problem I think is licenses, patents and all other things.
Now, as someone kindly corrected, I was referring to Trevor Dickinson, who seems from interviews to mostly just want this computer to exist. He seems to have other business ventures of some sort to make some income so this is just a vanity project for him.
People can do whatever they want with their money. Even if the X1000 turns out to tank, it'll still be more than "amiga.inc" has produced in what ? 5 years ?
As far as x86, again.. meh. The only audience that exists for this are us here. What would a port of OS4 do that AROS does not ?
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So far, Acube has developed the hardware and they've just supplied the OS, so no loss there. OS development is not an easy job, but it doesn't require a factory anywhere.
From the interviews with the guy in charge of Hyperion, it seems that the X1000 is very much a vanity project, that he is hoping to break even on.
I can understand the vanity aspect. I stuck with a V6 in my Fiero for years squeezing the most power out of it despite readily available and cheap V8 swaps.
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I can understand the vanity aspect. I stuck with a V6 in my Fiero for years squeezing the most power out of it despite readily available and cheap V8 swaps.
Any of the folks here with Blizzard PPC cards in their amiga's should understand that part :)
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I have a lot more respect for that point of view.
If you are really passionate about it and not just trying to monopolize the market into a corner, that's great.
I just wish Aros had the apparent control of the Amiga market that Hyperion seems to have. That project fits my views of the future much better.
AROS has not been marketed outside this community and only zealots fail to accept it.
AROS has already surpassed the other OS's in the 3D API dept... It could be a great platform for PC gaming without the need to pay MS any money for things such as online play...however the big publishers are falling for things like not having to host their own multi-player servers and (LIVE) messaging services.
Gaming may be where/how AROS pulls ahead of OS4 and MOS and is finally accepted by a wider audience.
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Trouble is AROS is FREE and OS4 for x86 would cost money. How many units would Hyperion need to ship @ 75 bucks per licence to cover the development costs of going from PPC to x86 native code?
I think that's where the sums fall down, AROS is a labour of love not a business and that is probably why it has survived and got so far to date.
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Trouble is AROS is FREE and OS4 for x86 would cost money. How many units would Hyperion need to ship @ 75 bucks per licence to cover the development costs of going from PPC to x86 native code?
I think that's where the sums fall down, AROS is a labour of love not a business and that is probably why it has survived and got so far to date.
"no schedule and rocking" I believe is how the kids are saying it today
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People can do whatever they want with their money. Even if the X1000 turns out to tank, it'll still be more than "amiga.inc" has produced in what ? 5 years ?
This presumes that the X1000 ever makes it to market as anything other than a devs plaything - something I'm not entirely sure of. As far as Amiga.Inc goes... Tbh they were tied up in court by Hyperion for quite a few of those years, so to make the comparison is a little unfair. imho the only reason Hyperion won what they did was simply that they had more cash, not because of holding the high ground.
As far as x86, again.. meh. The only audience that exists for this are us here. What would a port of OS4 do that AROS does not ?
Consider the press that the Commodore USA announcement generated. Hell it managed to get more press coverage than the Amiga has seen since 3.9 was released. AROS might be technically competent, MorphOS is certainly more mature.
But OS4 has a name that is recognisable to people other than those within the community.
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I think the publicity of Commodore USA was more down to the word Amiga than OS4. And the utter BS from MR BS Altman over making new Amiga PCs ;)
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I think the publicity of Commodore USA was more down to the word Amiga than OS4
"Amiga OS4"
Amiga is a brand has some recognition still. Neither MorphOS or AROS can claim that.
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I think the publicity of Commodore USA was more down to the word Amiga than OS4. And the utter BS from MR BS Altman over making new Amiga PCs ;)
Well, hyperion and a-eon both announced very similar things... a new Amiga. the difference being is that C=USA has some marketing guys working for them and intends to make money and operate as a solvent entity, while Hyperion and a-eon seem to be running this more like a hobby project. All very IMHO.
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The day they go x86 i'll probably run OS4. I don't get why people wants to buy overpriced "dongles" to run it.
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The day they go x86 i'll probably run OS4. I don't get why people wants to buy overpriced "dongles" to run it.
Have you tried AROS ?
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I did and it's starting to become usable... But MOS and OS4 feels more complete.
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I did and it's starting to become usable... But MOS and OS4 feels more complete.
I think the problem is that after spending who knows how long porting it to x86, and then trying to get applications to run or new ones written... OS4 or MOS might not really be all that much more usable.
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get over yourself its his company he decides what happens you just want something for free
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well said brother me too seems like old days ones with loudest voices are ones that
never put money to buy new hardware they bang on about how expensive hardware is, before that complaining no hardware
never please everone , l spent thousands on dvds some may think thats waste money its people choices what spend there money on
they want company to do all work for them then on whim after spent years of effort oh yeah lets just waste all that go x86 please
if ran biz it be bankrupt no time with that attitude, for amiga to surive it needs point diffrence going x86 wont do that just be yet another pc clone
what company needs is strong leader who has vision why you think it took steve jobs to come back to save mac , not somone listens to ever
person that frankly probley never buy amiga product anyway banging on about what he wants
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get over yourself its his company he decides what happens you just want something for free
Where the hell did that come from?
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well said brother me too seems like old days ones with lundest voices are ones that
never put money to buy new hardware
ROTFL
MMMM, I'm guessing you were going to use your sock account but missed?
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It's quite interesting to see how personally some people can take comments questioning business pragmatism. It's also interesting to see how far some of us have fallen, from having the classic Amiga as the benchmark to having Amiga Inc's 5 years of waste as the benchmark. In which case, any new thing is automatically deserving of our utmost and unquestionable devotion.
Here's another marketing term everyone should be familirar with, be it consumers or producers, free or for profit; Consumer Confidence.
Moving OS4 to x86 would be a large undertaking, I estimate that it would take $1M. The kind of money that hasn't been invested in the Amiga for a long time. The kind of money that people immediately understand to be serious, beyond the mere vanity and hobby interest. At $75 a pop Mr Hermans would need 13,333 buyers to make the investment back. With hardware costing in the realm of $500 rather than $1,500 I bet you'd find a lot more interested buyers.
That, my fellow Amigans is what I would consider an 'Ambitious Project', one that actually builds new products and consumer confidence.
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I just want the Amiga IP opened to the community. There's no real money to be made and no new prospective customers. The community that has kept the various Amiga owners in business all these years would be better served by having the software and hardware open-sourced. If that doesn't happen, the 'real' Amiga will wither away while AROS flourishes.
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btw, what about how the infamous x1k multicore support, any news except that you may run linux on the other core in paralell? master bruce, can i be of further assistance or will that be all? how embrassing.
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The day Amiga goes x86 is the day I retire from the scene.
Is that a threat or a promise? ;-)
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@all
When did amiga.org turn into the old amigaworld.net? Things used to be a lot less contentious around here.
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As stated at AmiWest 2010, they still have no interest in x86.
I suppose selling a handful outdated slow overpriced computers somehow makes them more money than selling good software that runs on fast commodity hardware.
Greed > user experience.
Unbelievable.
Well if you were an Amiga user back in the day,you may just get why some of us DO NOT WANT x86!
But don`t worry there`s always CommodoreUSA for ya,go knock yourself out with that junk.
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Ok, I was on the verge of trolling.
I had the intention of reporting what he said at AmiWest, but it had more of my opinion than it did facts.
Sorry about that.
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Well if you were an Amiga user back in the day,you may just get why some of us DO NOT WANT x86!
Some people think that graphics cards and processors > 68000 are traitorous.
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Well if you were an Amiga user back in the day,you may just get why some of us DO NOT WANT x86!
But don`t worry there`s always CommodoreUSA for ya,go knock yourself out with that junk.
I want both and like BeOS was at the end. We'll see which one is more popular. Maybe if BeOS had gone x86 sooner, they wouldn't dead and torn limb from limb, then have some company take a wiss on their grave.:(
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AROS has already surpassed the other OS's in the 3D API dept... It could be a great platform for PC gaming
I think you should look at some performance benchmarks of AROS 3D. Then you may avoid putting such amusing statements.
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The day Amiga goes x86 is the day I retire from the scene.
The day they go x86 i'll probably run OS4. I don't get why people wants to buy overpriced "dongles" to run it.
I don't see why anyone gets so polarized for or against which CPU is inside their computer? All I care about is how it performs and what it costs to purchase, plus how reliable it is and will the company that sells and/or manufacturers it be in business in the future to replace the CPU should it fail while under any kind of warranty, or will there be a stock of parts to replace dead CPU's if I decide to keep running my new computer as long as I have run and plan to continue running some of my original Amiga computers.
x86, PPC, or some other, perhaps not yet known CPU, who cares and why, unless you are a developer that is expert at coding for one architecture and not the other using Assembly Language, or some other programming language that has CPU specific commands and/or functions, and if you are, having the OS ported to the opposite architecture than the one you are used to coding for does not mean that you are forced to stop coding for the architecture of your preference, as PPC computers are not going to disappear on the day that AmigaOS4.x, or MorphOS2.x are ported to x86. x86 just provides more choices for users and programmers above what we already have.
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I don't see why anyone gets so polarized for or against which CPU is inside their computer? All I care about is how it performs and what it costs to purchase, plus how reliable it is and will the company that sells and/or manufacturers it be in business in the future to replace the CPU should it fail while under any kind of warranty, or will there be a stock of parts to replace dead CPU's if I decide to keep running my new computer as long as I have run and plan to continue running some of my original Amiga computers.
x86, PPC, or some other, perhaps not yet known CPU, who cares and why, unless you are a developer that is expert at coding for one architecture and not the other using Assembly Language, or some other programming language that has CPU specific commands and/or functions, and if you are, having the OS ported to the opposite architecture than the one you are used to coding for does not mean that you are forced to stop coding for the architecture of your preference, as PPC computers are not going to disappear on the day that AmigaOS4.x, or MorphOS2.x are ported to x86. x86 just provides more choices for users and programmers above what we already have.
Exactly :hammer:
I don't see the point either, and while we are on the base of price, reliability and warranty I rather prefer a good core I7 with everything on it than a 1800-2000 euro costing X1000 with hardware in it that is only able to run OS4/Morph OS and maybe even Linux if you can get it to run on it.
At least with a x86 machine I can always put Windows or MacOs or whatever you want on it and make it dual / triple booting.
And with a x86 machine I have more reliability and warranty, Intel covers 3 years on boxed cpu's and mainboards, which I never had to make use of so far and I have been using Intel products for years.
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I can understand people wanting to stick with what they know.
But the nature of computer technology is to rapidly evolve and develop. Anyone who resists the flow just ends up becoming a dinosaur. Or a retro hobbyist. ;oP
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... hardware in it that is only able to run OS4/Morph OS and maybe even Linux ...
At least with a x86 machine I can always put Windows or MacOs
So you like Windows (MacOS doesn´t run on a vanilla x86) better than Amiga OS 4?
Linux for the X1000 is on the way. Some beta-testers get it only for that purpose.
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So you like Windows (MacOS doesn´t run on a vanilla x86)
Getting MacOS to run on vanilla x86 is trivial.
Is there any word on a working port of Linux for the X1000?
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Even if the Amiga came out for X86, Arm, PPC, and whatever CPU there is it would not take off as there is such a taint to the Amiga brand.
The only way I can think of the brand taking off is if the Amiga os is used for somekind of as of yet new technology or break into some market segment that is unexplored and becomes the market leader/ standard in that category.
If you examine NewTek. They took the toaster technology and applied it to live video streaming over the net when the big networks weren't thinking about online video. Today NewTek Tricaster is the standard Live Video Switch and Stream tool.
A lot of what is going on has it's roots back to the Amiga days.
A what if scenario here: What if Amiga had caught on as a Cell Phone OS early on? But a complete lack of ability by the IP holders held them back. At least Hyperion actually code and produce product.
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That would be Trevor Dickinson, one of the A-eon partners, not Hyperion.
Well, their(Hyperion, Hermans) stand against x86 is well known for years. I guess admitting defeat may be too much for some egos. Maybe ARM, but that is still a distant future (possibility?) for high-performance desktops.
At least they changed their mind about Pegasos. They even denied any plans of porting OS4.x to it even though they were working on it behind the scenes at that time. The release of 4.x for pegasos machines took everyone by surprise, so it would not surprise me if the same happened with x86 in the future. It is really a bad business decision to reveal such plans when you got another system about to be released. Imagine if hyperion today announced that x86 port for cheap affordable hardware was annoucned, would you then think X1000 or acube would sell at all?? Announcing x86 support at this time would be like shooting themselves, aeon and acube in the leg.
Edit: And oh yeah.. There was no plans for classic port of 4.1 either and they denied that even a short while ago and yet oddly enough they announced the port this weekend.
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Edit: And oh yeah.. There was no plans for classic port of 4.1 either and they denied that even a short while ago and yet oddly enough they announced the port this weekend.
and what does it reveal about them in your opinion?
me, if i was still slightly interested i would be really cautious now.
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If they were secretly planning an x86 port and still allowing x1000 development to proceed, I'd be terrified to work with them in the future.
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I think you should look at some performance benchmarks of AROS 3D. Then you may avoid putting such amusing statements.
I think lou_dias is absolutely correct. AROS now runs on some of the latest Nvida GPUs and OS4 is still stuck with a video chipset that's at least 5 years behind the rest of the world. I'm also seeing new hardware support for AROS on a regular basis. In the past 2 months alone I've seen new WiFi support and new HD audio support. When is the last time anyone has seen any new hardware support for OS4?
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@runequester
But surely most of the code would be in C and the parts where bit order are important would be limited. But without access to the source it's only a guess, but I don't think we're talking major rewrite here. You also have the advantage that the software currently available can easily be recompiled and a rosetta layer should not be necessary.
But as others have said, it likely would be of benefit to users only and wouldn't help Hyperion....
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@ElPolloDiabl
Haiku-OS looks good though. Still I think the OS wars have moved on to Tablets and Haiku's chances are slim to make any real impact.
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x86 would stop all OS4 projects for years and not income in that time. It would only make costs, not any profit. And who wants to wait another 3-5 years in this situation? when we have more hardware that ever, after commodore
It is possible to make cheap PPC hardware, look at efica, to adding to it memory slot or two would make it perfect cheap solution for as.
I allso remember interview of BeOs developer who blamed that x86 actually killed BeOs
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yes. aos for arm. and will there be an aos4 for z80 too?
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x86 would stop all OS4 projects for years and not income in that time.
OS4 has never really produced much income period.
It would only make costs, not any profit. And who wants to wait another 3-5 years in this situation? when we have more hardware that ever, after commodore
Because the options that are available today are unpalatable?
It is possible to make cheap PPC hardware, look at efica, to adding to it memory slot or two would make it perfect cheap solution for as.
PPC is expensive. Hideously so and getting worse all the time. The reason for the Efica's low cost was due wholly to the fact that it was so limited in terms of hardware (which is why it was so heavily panned). The moment you try to throw expandability into the mix, suddenly you're up at Sam 440 prices again.
I allso remember interview of BeOs developer who blamed that x86 actually killed BeOs
They may well have said it. It doesn't make it true however. The one and only thing that killed BeOS, was Microsoft putting pressure on OEMs to block the OS being sold.
The reason they dumped PPC was because it was hugely expensive to develop (in terms of hardware development) and not particularly fast even when done right...
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If hyperion did succeed in porting os4 to x86, the real problem would be another:
Who does say to all users who were forced to buy very expensive ppc machines to run os4 that their expensive ppc machines become useless and that os4 will work good, if not better, on the new architecture?
In amiga world there's no steve jobs (DEO GRATIAS)...
ii problem: what about acube and aeon?
if this to acube (aeon) is an hobby, passing to x86 could be no problem because it should be the same to sell x86 hw or ppc one.
if this to acube (aeon) is a matter of life and death it could be a problem. but it means too that an entire company live with the earning that about 1000 customers give them. the same earning in x86 world you can hardly make with 10000 customers. x86 is an open market with its benefits but with its laws and if aos4 would be ported to x86 (let's say for 2 or 3 chipset following apple example) why can't i buy an "amiga clone"? surely it will be a benefit for sw house but not for hw producers and hw customers.
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I think you guys are missing a vital point.
If AOS4 was ported to X86 processors, do you really think they'd sell a lot more copies? Or would most PC users still continue to use Windows, OSX, and maybe Linux?
Who would they sell it to? Us, the fanatics willing to still support this market (and there really aren't many of us).
Why are we constantly rehashing our personal opinions on platforms when we already have variants covering every major processor type except ARM?
And I'm baffled at the X1000 bashing. If you don't like the high price (which again folks is primarily caused by the low volume limited market) and you want an X86 machine support AROS. Yes the X1000 is overpriced, but I'm know the designer and Treavor hired to only company I'm aware of that could have built a machine to this spec. It may be the last major PPC system introduced, and yes its definately a vanity machine because its spec are damned nice.
Further if PPCs are dead, why are Appliedv Micro and Freescale still introducing new models?
Again, no matter what your prejudice, there's an Amiga related system available (or about to be introduced) that will suit you.
Totally into pain? Stick with legacy hardware. Its still out there (even NOS systems) and there's still software and hardware being developed for it. And if you're patient (and have a lot of faith) you can wait for the Natami.
Those of us who have gotten over the whole "Amiga" name things and just want to continue to evolve are using MorphOS (and we welcome Hyperion to the PPC table because virtually any software created for AOS4 is likely to be ported to MOS).
And again, want to use only one core of your X86 machine and tout a 3d graphics system that's still pretty buggy? Use AROS, because they will keep improving it.
I've said this before on this forum, but it bears repeating, the diversity of our hardware is not a negative thing its a positive.If you want an Amiga like OS on a specific platform, all you have to do is switch which variant your using.
Stop trying to tell me my choice is wrong. After all, we're all a liittle crazy for continuing to support the development of this stuff this long (when all the major players in the game trashed the reputation of our market with BS and broken promises).
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Well if you were an Amiga user back in the day,you may just get why some of us DO NOT WANT x86!
But don`t worry there`s always CommodoreUSA for ya,go knock yourself out with that junk.
well said
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If they were secretly planning an x86 port and still allowing x1000 development to proceed, I'd be terrified to work with them in the future.
My point was only that we dont know what is going on behind the scenes.
I have no idea about their real opinions about a x86 port. Personally i highly doubt they will release it anytime soon due to the x1000, but who knows what they have planned for the future. Even if they do have such plans for future then i doubt they would reveal it now as it would hurt X1000/acube.
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I think you guys are missing a vital point.
If AOS4 was ported to X86 processors, do you really think they'd sell a lot more copies? Or would most PC users still continue to use Windows, OSX, and maybe Linux?
Who would they sell it to? Us, the fanatics willing to still support this market (and there really aren't many of us).
I stick by what I said here (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=586761&postcount=7).
However, if you somehow managed to get the cash and manpower necessary together to do a port, there is a market for alternate OS's. But you would have to limit your hardware choices to something like Mini-ITX if you wanted to avoid the hardware support nightmare that BeOS/Zeta had.
As for how many copies you'd sell, honestly you would have to work damned hard to sell fewer copies than they are currently.
Cost of entry counts for a lot.
Further if PPCs are dead, why are Appliedv Micro and Freescale still introducing new models?
PPC's for the desktop are dead. What's being developed now is primarily for the embedded/telecoms sectors, with of course, the handful of models for the games console market.
I've said this before on this forum, but it bears repeating, the diversity of our hardware is not a negative thing its a positive.If you want an Amiga like OS on a specific platform, all you have to do is switch which variant your using.
Yes and no. Having choice is good, but the division of labour that was required to produce that choice isn't so much.
The only really important thing though is this: To enjoy what you have :)
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It would not cost much to get os4 running on any x86 computer.
There are some open source ppc emulators...
They could build something fairly easily to run their current binarys on x86 if they wanted to. They don't, and god knows why.
Even if you did port all of os4 to x86 it would not take many years as people have said. 1 person could probably port the whole thing in under a year if he was a competent os development guy.
By whole thing I mean the core os, and essential support programs Not
regular apps. Once the os is ported, let others port specific apps.
Os4 will die a slow painful death I think. Maybe some day when it gets hopeless enough they will open source it and let someone else
port it to real hardware.
Steven
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They may well have said it. It doesn't make it true however. The one and only thing that killed BeOS, was Microsoft putting pressure on OEMs to block the OS being sold.
Glad someone agrees with me on that.
The reason they dumped PPC was because it was hugely expensive to develop (in terms of hardware development) and not particularly fast even when done right...
AFAIK the reason they dumped PPC was they had no machines to develop for. They had been targeting Mac clones but as soon as they were cancelled they had no choice but to switch to x86.
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Its funny Alan, I find myself agreeing with you on far to many points.
I like using what I'm using and have been assured that we're sticking with this direction for the time being. But even MorphOS could one day end up on X86 machines. I mean where will we go when the PPC hardware drys up?
Right now, your point on limiting hardware support is extremely correct. There's just too much hardware to consider writing drivers for all X86 related devices. That's why packaged AROS systems make sense (and of course those of us who want to build it ourserlves would just have to focus on similar components).
And if AOS4 goes X86, maybe we can get a firesale price on X1000s (which even though Piru is amidantly against it, I'd love to see a port of MOS for it).
And the basic point of this discussion is economics. Acube's boards are not only high priced but they use some really slow Applied Micro processors. The X1000's even higher priced and is based on a processor that has no future (its funny that when I e-mailed the board's designer over a half a year ago he stated that instead of designing around PA Semi's processors he'd lean toward Frescale's communications oriented PPCs).
Since I can build an AROS machine for only slightly more than I've spent on my Powermac, the current pricing of AOS4 hardware is hard to defend. Especially when my sub $100 Powermac walks all over Acube's boards (and while used itsa complete computer not just a motherboard).
How can Amigans be expected to pony up $1000 to $2000 when I can assemble a competent X86 system for about $500?
Being one of the people hanging on to PPC based systems, I love a new vanity based too cool for words piece of hardware. I just can't wrap my mind around the pricing.
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I don't think anyone minds paying for exotic hardware when it actually does things other hardware won't. I have a friend who built a 4 quad cpu
pc (16 cores total) just because he could, and also because he does 3d rendering and other processor intensive tasks.
4 quad core processors and motherboard, case, ps, keyboard, mouse, sound and video cards, all cost him less than this x1000 joke.
The problem I see is that they are charging ridiculous prices for a processor that any 500$ cheapo pc can absolutely run rings around.
For 2000-3000$, I can build a 16 core x86 beast that would absolutely
smoke anything the x1000 can do. Kinda hard to decide instead, I'm
going to buy a 2ghz ppc with amiga os, oh and only one core will
be useable by my os... ? They are joking right?
Steven
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I don't think anyone minds paying for exotic hardware when it actually does things other hardware won't. I have a friend who built a 4 quad cpu
pc (16 cores total) just because he could, and also because he does 3d rendering and other processor intensive tasks.
4 quad core processors and motherboard, case, ps, keyboard, mouse, sound and video cards, all cost him less than this x1000 joke.
The problem I see is that they are charging ridiculous prices for a processor that any 500$ cheapo pc can absolutely run rings around.
For 2000-3000$, I can build a 16 core x86 beast that would absolutely
smoke anything the x1000 can do. Kinda hard to decide instead, I'm
going to buy a 2ghz ppc with amiga os, oh and only one core will
be useable by my os... ? They are joking right?
Steven
Well, that's supposing that the X1000 even sees the light of day. I very much doubt it will ever make it to market. Trevor has already missed the summer deadline for release and since he didn't have anything new to show at AmiWest it's doubtful that he'll meet his next deadline. It's beginning to parallel the last Amiga hardware fiasco courtesy of ACK Software Controls and Adam Kowalczyk.
The specs of the X1000 sound amazingly similar to what Adam was cooking up back in 2007. See here for more info: http://www.osnews.com/story/17866
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As stated at AmiWest 2010, they still have no interest in x86.
As a platform, I'd rather be stuck on the FPGAs than to have to support all the hardware that exists for x86 commodity PCs. The best option, however, is still "all of the above" if you can get drivers for it.
A large portion of the advances of AROS are from the Gallium drivers for NVidia graphics cards. The Radeon drivers all require LLVM and will follow when I get LLVM ported to AROS. (I've already taken the bounty.)
I think LLVM will make a much more palatable target than any one processor architecture will by itself, especially since almost all AROS software is written in C.
The AmigaOS 4.x may take a similar turn since the XMOS toolchain is based on LLVM also. Hyperion has also deprecated PPC Assembly language on OS 4 in favor of C and C++. It's just a matter of time until everybody makes the switch to LLVM and Clang. (Clang has a much more liberal license than GCC, after all.)
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No, unlike ACK this hardware has been seen and it was designed by a company with a good track record that delivers what it promises.
It bugs me that you guys doubt that, I enchanged e-mails with the Xena's designer months before his company was revealed as the source of the design.
Blame Hyperion. This board requires a lot of new drivers and they just don't have the development resources to get this port out quickly.
I'm still amuzed that some of you disparage MorphOS when they have numerous developers working on their OS. What does Hyperion have? Two?
Hey, maybe if Treavor had sent a populated motherboard to the MOS team (instead of a bare one) he would have an OS by now (then again, maybe not, MOS developers won't release products until they're throughly debug and work right).
Don't worry, you'll see X1000s eventual (although I'd bet the OS won't be perfect out the door). And I'm still willing to bet that there will be a few fanatics with money burning holes in their pockets that will buy them.
I'll keep looking for a G5 Powermac, maybe buy n AROS system, and bank the other $1000.
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I'm not sure how supporting every x86 device is considered a problem when we've been scrounging up PCI Voodoo3's and 5v ATI cards on ebay for years and thought it was just grand.
If we had support for just one or two current pieces of hardware we'd be ecstatic.
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First of all, I wished I could get my hands on an Amiga OS4.1 machine but for the following reasons I went for Morphos instead:
1. I got a Powermac G4 for free (these can be found for cheap anyway)
2. It is way more powerful than any Amiga OS4.1 capable machine I can buy
3. It did not make any sense for me to pay nearly 1000 Euro to be able to run Amiga OS4.1 when MorphOS does the job just as well (if not even better).
Sure, you may argue that MorphOS is 'not Amiga', but once you start using it, it will be hard to notice that its 'not AMiga'.
If Hyperion decide to bring on AMiga OS4.1 to PPC MACs, i would get it and have a very nice dual OS machine, but I cannot justify spending big euro when what I got does the job so nicely.
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Its funny Alan, I find myself agreeing with you on far to many points.
Don't worry, the nauseous sensation that comes with it passes with time, so I'm told ;)
Being one of the people hanging on to PPC based systems, I love a new vanity based too cool for words piece of hardware. I just can't wrap my mind around the pricing.
I have to say I didn't really have much of an opinion on the X1000, I figured it was another vapour project. Then we saw real hardware and that mind bogglingly epic projected price tag... From kinda neat but a bit "meh" for me to holy shit, that is mentally expensive! In the space of a youtube vid.
Sam 460 looks to be about the only semi viable PPC system that looks like it'll see the light of day. Hopefully the X1000 won't have done too much damage by then.
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Hi i made an offer:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=32037&forum=25#585879
Stay PPC, focus on PPC but allow me to install your OS "emulated" on the AresOne....
Pro:
Hyperion/ Team Moprhos have even more HW
both get license fees from me (for exclusive right)
both can sell more licenses
both can use the money to finance PPC development
I could sell more to finance AROS AMD64 development
Contra:
- i am not the right one to find anything against it : D
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Glad someone agrees with me on that.
Only someone who had never really followed the BeOS scene would say otherwise tbh.
AFAIK the reason they dumped PPC was they had no machines to develop for. They had been targeting Mac clones but as soon as they were cancelled they had no choice but to switch to x86.
They had been running on CHRP hardware after dropping the BeBox, when the newer G3 kit came out they were faced with the choice of X86 only or building their own PPC kit from scratch again due to Apple being very coy about the internals of their newer stuff - that's what I meant by the cost of PPC development.
--ninjar edits--
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@phoenixkonsole:
i don't know why, but i smell you have it already working...
does it work fast?:D (tell me yes please)
;)
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There is no point in going over to X86. The point that would have been sensible is long long gone. It might have worked when comodore were still around.
These days what would be the point, and before you say cheap hardware, that is not enough.
It would take a massive amount of work to port and then you would have to run all the old applications in an emualtion, like you do now on the ppc. So what would be the point just use winuae.
OS4 or MorphOS just do not offer enough against linux, macOsx and windows.
MorphsOS and I assume OS4(not tried it , as there is no way to try OS4 without buying) are ok for a hobby next gen Amiga OS on PPC hardware.
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I think you guys are missing a vital point.
If AOS4 was ported to X86 processors, do you really think they'd sell a lot more copies? Or would most PC users still continue to use Windows, OSX, and maybe Linux?
Who would they sell it to? Us, the fanatics willing to still support this market (and there really aren't many of us).
Why are we constantly rehashing our personal opinions on platforms when we already have variants covering every major processor type except ARM?
And I'm baffled at the X1000 bashing. If you don't like the high price (which again folks is primarily caused by the low volume limited market) and you want an X86 machine support AROS. Yes the X1000 is overpriced, but I'm know the designer and Treavor hired to only company I'm aware of that could have built a machine to this spec. It may be the last major PPC system introduced, and yes its definately a vanity machine because its spec are damned nice.
Further if PPCs are dead, why are Appliedv Micro and Freescale still introducing new models?
Again, no matter what your prejudice, there's an Amiga related system available (or about to be introduced) that will suit you.
Totally into pain? Stick with legacy hardware. Its still out there (even NOS systems) and there's still software and hardware being developed for it. And if you're patient (and have a lot of faith) you can wait for the Natami.
Those of us who have gotten over the whole "Amiga" name things and just want to continue to evolve are using MorphOS (and we welcome Hyperion to the PPC table because virtually any software created for AOS4 is likely to be ported to MOS).
And again, want to use only one core of your X86 machine and tout a 3d graphics system that's still pretty buggy? Use AROS, because they will keep improving it.
(SNIP)
Intel Core i5/i7 includes Turbo Boost feature.
When the processor has not reached its thermal and electrical limits and the user's workload demands additional performance, the processor clock frequency will dynamically increase in increments of 133 MHz on short and regular intervals until a thermal or power limit is reached or the maximum speed for the number of active cores is reached. Conversely, when any of the limits are reached or exceeded, the processor frequency will automatically decrease in increments of 133 MHz until the processor is again operating within its limits.
- wiki
An example, my Intel Core i7-740QM (4 cores/8 threads) @1.73Ghz overclocks to 2.93Ghz during single thread task.
With 3 or 4 cores active: to 1.86 GHz
With 2 cores active: to 2.53 Ghz
With only 1 core active: to 2.93 Ghz
Another example , i7-920XM with normal operating frequency is 2.0GHz
With 3 or 4 cores active: to 2.26GHz —————> 2000 + 2 × 133.33 = 2000 + 266.66 ≃ 2266
With 2 cores active: to 3.06GHz ———————> 2000 + 8 × 133.33 = 2000 + 1066.64 ≃ 3067
With only 1 core active: to 3.20GHz —————–> 2000 + 9 × 133.33 = 2000 + 1199.97 ≃ 3200
The older Intel Core 2 Duo T7x00 includes a limited Turbo Boost feature.
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and what does it reveal about them in your opinion?
me, if i was still slightly interested i would be really cautious now.
It tells me they are aware of the Osborne effect, and knows that talking about future hardware/support while trying to sell the "current generation" is a sure-fire way to bankruptcy.
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For 2000-3000$, I can build a 16 core x86 beast that would absolutely
smoke anything the x1000 can do. Kinda hard to decide instead, I'm
going to buy a 2ghz ppc with amiga os, oh and only one core will
be useable by my os... ? They are joking right?
You miss the point. Nobody buys Amiga/AmigaOne for the performance anymore. Nobody. And from a e/perormance point of view, even picking up classics or Minimigs or buying accelerators off Ebay etc. would be lunacy.
The X1000 is not competing with PC's on price. They are not expecting to take people who worry about the performance. They want to deliver "fast enough" for people to justify buying an experience.
As an example, my current laptop cost about 1/3 of my wifes Macbook. They have the *exact same CPU*. Mine has more memory and a bigger disk. None of them are particularly fast, but they are fast enough we could both easily do with a slower machine if we had to. People buy into the Apple experience.
First of all, there's a substantial subset of Hyperions and Aeons potential customers that really, really don't want x86 for whatever reasons. Secondly, there's a group of people like me, that, if the X1000 was just another x86 box would need something exceptional to consider it, but that are willing and able to pay a substantial premium for something that is *different*. The combination of PPC and OS4 makes it fit the bill nicely.
People spend money on things because they are different all the time. I spent as much on my Minimig as I did for my laptop, despite how much less capable the Minimig is (my laptop can easily outperform it with UAE in far better screen modes, for example, and it has HDMI output). Because it was fun and different.
The second core thing is annoying, but irrelevant: This model would be mostly as appealing with a single core, but going dual core makes very little difference in price these days and creates the expectation that "soon" we'll see support for it, and hence make the machine faster for people. And at least some users will be interested in running Linux on it too.
If this was intended to be a mass market product competing on price/performance, you'd be right. As it stands, they are competing only for a very small, very specific segment of people for whom price/performance is not going to be the primary consideration. Time will tell whether that market segment is big enough to bring them enough of a profit to survive, and hopefully to be able to aim bigger next time.
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If they do it correctly I would drop windows in a heartbeat.
I own no loyalty to any processor or any hardware, I just want a friendly OS
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I'm not sure how supporting every x86 device is considered a problem when we've been scrounging up PCI Voodoo3's and 5v ATI cards on ebay for years and thought it was just grand.
If we had support for just one or two current pieces of hardware we'd be ecstatic.
If you've been following the AROS scene, we have drivers for high-end NVidia cards (PCIe interfaced), one high-end sound card, a few mid-range network adapters, and some other high-end peripherals. The table is set already but we can't sit down at the meal for lack of something to eat! We need software!
LLVM will at least make it possible to compile software for every supported architecture including PPC and AMD64. The SAM440ep already has PPC AROS for it so if anybody wanted to migrate to AROS, they could. Now do you see what I mean by "all of the above"?
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@vidarh
But the real question is how many people would be using OS 4 if they ported it to X86, not that people are willing to pay a hefty premium to run it on X1000. If Hyperion sold OS 4 for say €100 or €150 and you could run it on a certain proportion of standard equipment or VirtualBox, I would have plunked down the cash six months ago. I'm sure there are others who feel the same.
I don't think anyone is against Hyperion making a living off it's product, but there is so much good stuff out there making demands of my bank account, some of it starts with small i, but there are some neat Android tablets too and phones and video players and and and. Plus being able to run on X86 you double the value of the X86 equipment you purchase. Not only is it your MS Windows/OS X/Linux workhorse, it's also your aOS play toy. Every core, every GB of RAM, every GB on your graphics card gets doubled by being both your work and play machine.
Essentially X1000 plays to the hard core, what I'm looking for plays to the enthusiast with a limited budget...
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As stated at AmiWest 2010, they still have no interest in x86.
I suppose selling a handful outdated slow overpriced computers somehow makes them more money than selling good software that runs on fast commodity hardware.
I certainly understand the desire NOT to follow everyone else, including the once-upon-a-time "Think Different" Apple, onto x86. Plus Hermans seems very happy with the PPC prospects. Excerpt from Amigakit website:
Ben Hermans encourages people to look at Freescale P4 P5 architectures for future of AmigaOne range. He says PowerPC is still a viable platform for the future. Potentially 8 cores running at 1.5Ghz: "mind boggling performance"
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So we could have a machine with 7X as many idle cores as the X1000. Mind boggling indeed.
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So we could have a machine with 7X as many idle cores as the X1000. Mind boggling indeed.
Only Amiga makes it possible! LOL
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So we could have a machine with 7X as many idle cores as the X1000. Mind boggling indeed.
I'm not for or against OS4/X1000 etc. at this point (I've never even used OS4), but the implication is that they will not be idle in future OS versions -- obviously.
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I'm not for or against OS4/X1000 etc. at this point (I've never even used OS4), but the implication is that they will not be idle in future OS versions -- obviously.
Future being defined as what? The year 2015? And for whom? The five developers that have the only five X1000s on the planet?
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I think the number of people who complain about the entry price here, coupled with the fact that this is the exact market for os4 (amiga users) speaks volumes. They are shooting themselves in the foot... Even hardcore amiga fans can't afford to use it, so they have no hope anywhere else.
I'm very happy with winuae and playing with aros. Someday I'll buy a mac and morphos. I doubt I will ever buy or use a ppc os4, and thats a real shame. I just can't justify the ridiculous price.
I can buy a brand new windows/linux pc, build a custom aros pc, buy a mini mac and morphos, and still have money left over... OR I could buy an x1000?
It must truly be a labor of love for them, they have no hope whatsoever of ever making any money out of os4.
Steven
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AmigaOne X500 needed ~$500 including OS -- wouldn't it be nice?
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So you like Windows better than Amiga OS 4?
I'd be lying if I said no, Windows 7 64 bit is running like it has never ever crashed.
And the only time it did do a BSOD was with Prime95 running a maximum torture heat test :)
And that's probably due to the stock memory.
Fact is for my everyday work, I rather have Office running and Live Mail, than starting up one of my A4000's and using that.
And at the moment I haven't got OS4 running on 1 of them, I'm waiting for 4.1, I sold an original OS4 cd years ago, stupid, but I needed the money.
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Future being defined as what? The year 2015? And for whom? The five developers that have the only five X1000s on the planet?
Why not? As long as I may have one of them... ;-)
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I'd be lying if I said no, Windows 7 64 bit is running like it has never ever crashed.
...
Fact is for my everyday work, I rather have Office running and Live Mail, than starting up one of my A4000's and using that.
No comment.
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Why not? As long as I may have one of them... ;-)
Nothing wrong with being rich, belonging to an exclusive club, and having a loootttt of patience! ;-)
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Hello
1)Some want to make profit selling cheap hardware for Amiga
2)Some are hobbyists that only want to manufacture/buy the kind of Amiga they loved
But 1) are wrong as there are no profit to make with Amiga
Also making a cheap hardware can cost a lot in drivers developpement (especially if need to write a 3D driver for AmigaOS)
2) are more like an old Harley-Davidson club : they love their old machines and no way they wont going to buy another motor (they will not buy an electric bike )
Also we are no more kids with some coins on theirs pockets (certainly we are all 35-45 years olds) so most of us can buy an expensive Amiga if they really want.
I am very tired with all those people that wants a computer : not expensive + with 86 + with standard motherboard + recent Internet sowftwares + memory protection + GL shader + etc... JUST GO BUY A PC and dont lost your time here
Here it is an Hells Angels club ;-P
Alain Thellier
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I'm not for or against OS4/X1000 etc. at this point (I've never even used OS4), but the implication is that they will not be idle in future OS versions -- obviously.
I may have misunderstood them, but they didn't talk about SMP at amiwest. Only about "multicore support" in a sense that you could run OS4 on one and Linux on the other core. No info on just how they intend to achieve that.
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Only about "multicore support" in a sense that you could run OS4 on one and Linux on the other core.
And if linux is not your cup of tea?
I guess what they really want to do is to have some "mini OS" similar to WarpUP running on the cores that are not running the OS core itself. With some luck we will have a competing alternative multicore system as well, so we can keep on the tradition of splitting into more camps :)
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Well if you were an Amiga user back in the day,you may just get why some of us DO NOT WANT x86!
Yes, because 20 years ago they were silly kids that laughed behind Intel x86 processors just because they were "the enemy" to fight. They thought Motorola 68Ks were absolutely superior, while in reality they had just some price/performance ratio advantages in SOME aspects. Processing grunt on the Intel side, however, was superior and you just had to look how a crappy 486sx/25 and a 68030 decoded a jpeg image to see what was the real winner.
Then, those silly kids had grown in oversized losers that, instead of realizing they were simply wrong at the time, continued to fight their religion war. It doesn't matter if their beloved 68k processors went out of production and their line was terminated. It doesn't matter if the next "alternative" choice (PPC) brought them nowhere. It doesn't even matter if NOTHING of the x86 processors of the times still lives in modern ones (just the IA, which has been virtualized on a pseudo-RISC hidden architecture for a decade now), or if they went 64 bits, or if they are cheaper and more powerful: what really matters for those people is just "fightin' da enemy" as usual.
I sincerely hope that all the "count me out if Amiga goes x86" people will really do that, we'll finally get rid of that bunch of fanactics. Thanks to people like them, Amiga turned from "computer for the masses" to "computer for the classes" and now survives in a tiny, forgotten market artificially kept alive by a little community and two heroic companies.
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He who lives by the PPC dies by the PPC!
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@vidarh
But the real question is how many people would be using OS 4 if they ported it to X86, not that people are willing to pay a hefty premium to run it on X1000. If Hyperion sold OS 4 for say €100 or €150 and you could run it on a certain proportion of standard equipment or VirtualBox, I would have plunked down the cash six months ago. I'm sure there are others who feel the same.
I'm sure some do feel the same, but they'd be targeting the subset of users who a) want an Amiga experience on x86, are b) prepared to pay, c) not happy with AROS or UAE, d) ok with an OS4 version that throws out all the current PPC software (or they'd have to deal with slow PPC on x86 emulation). I don't think the intersection of all of those adds up to many users - perhaps not even enough to cover the cost of a port.
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Yes, because 20 years ago they were silly kids that laughed behind Intel x86 processors just because they were "the enemy" to fight. They thought Motorola 68Ks were absolutely superior, while in reality they had just some price/performance ratio advantages in SOME aspects. Processing grunt on the Intel side, however, was superior and you just had to look how a crappy 486sx/25 and a 68030 decoded a jpeg image to see what was the real winner.
Then, those silly kids had grown in oversized losers that, instead of realizing they were simply wrong at the time, continued to fight their religion war. It doesn't matter if their beloved 68k processors went out of production and their line was terminated. It doesn't matter if the next "alternative" choice (PPC) brought them nowhere. It doesn't even matter if NOTHING of the x86 processors of the times still lives in modern ones (just the IA, which has been virtualized on a pseudo-RISC hidden architecture for a decade now), or if they went 64 bits, or if they are cheaper and more powerful: what really matters for those people is just "fightin' da enemy" as usual.
I sincerely hope that all the "count me out if Amiga goes x86" people will really do that, we'll finally get rid of that bunch of fanactics. Thanks to people like them, Amiga turned from "computer for the masses" to "computer for the classes" and now survives in a tiny, forgotten market artificially kept alive by a little community and two heroic companies.
Thanks for saying what many of us have been wanting to say for quite a while. Watch out though. Now you can expect to be flamed by the lunatic fringe you've just attacked.....or the moderators who will censor you for "trolling" because you're not "politically correct" in regard to "Amiga-speak".
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artificially kept alive by a little community and two heroic companies.
Hm, which companies would that be? Individual Computers and... m3b? Elbox? ;)
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Thanks for saying what many of us have been wanting to say for quite a while. Watch out though. Now you can expect to be flamed by the lunatic fringe you've just attacked.....or the moderators who will censor you for "trolling" because you're not "politically correct" in regard to "Amiga-speak".
Censorship?
You keep using that word.
I do not think it means what you think it means. :roflmao:
The fact that you can post that, kind of implies that they aren't censoring you...
While I disagree with the above, he's allowed his opinion.
I'd prefer it be done without the condescension, but let's just call it hyperbole..
It's obvious not everyone who preferred Motorolla at the time was a silly kid. The "oversize loser" comment was (IMHO) put there just to get people upset. Could be wrong. I'm sure he had a valid sampling methodology to justify his claim. :)
I do wonder, what were the JPEG times for those 2 systems?
How did they compare at the time?
Does anyone have a 486 anymore to be able to run a test?
Of course, without the same software on both machines, it might be more a test of the software.
I would think a 68030 might hold it's own against a 486/25, but I could be wrong..
desiv
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Bit of quick research..
486 had a MIPS (million instructions per second) rating of 20 (at 25 MHz) to 54 (66 MHz).
Motorola 68030 11 MIPS at 33 MHz, 18 MIPS @ 50MHz
50mhz might be able to keep up.
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I do wonder, what were the JPEG times for those 2 systems?
How did they compare at the time?
The major issue with such a test is the fact that even if the Amiga's CPU wins out, it'll still get smooshed at the point it attempts to display it by any 486 by virtue of the fact that the 486 will be using a graphics card almost certainly superior to either ECS or AGA.
In none compute intensive tasks, my A3000 030'25 with a CV64 was significantly more fluid to use verses my A1200 AGA with an 040'28.
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I would love to be able to turn on my laptop and boot AmigaOS natively, without any other operating systems required. If this was possible, the Amiga community would expand exponentially.
It would, of course, have to be totally free and easy to install on a huge variety of hardware.
But as has been mentioned here before, that would be such a mammoth task that it is just unrealistic.
Until that moment arrives, we're always gonna be stuck with hardware that is outdated before it is even released.
What a bloody shame.
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.. by virtue of the fact that the 486 will be using a graphics card almost certainly superior to either ECS or AGA.
True. Not only was Intel pulling ahead based on shear power about that time, but the graphics cards on the PCs were just starting to come into their own a bit.
Although, sheer power can't be totally written off...
Some of the AGA 060 demos by The Black Lotus are just amazing...
Or so they appear on youtube. No 060 to test them.. :(
desiv
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True. Not only was Intel pulling ahead based on shear power about that time, but the graphics cards on the PCs were just starting to come into their own a bit.
Although, sheer power can't be totally written off...
Some of the AGA 060 demos by The Black Lotus are just amazing...
Or so they appear on youtube. No 060 to test them.. :(
desiv
TBL senseless and starstruck run quite well on an 040 if you're running oxypatcher. Dunno about later ones.
--edit--
AFAIK they also work under UAE too, since that was the environment they were developed under.
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@desiv
Censorship?
You keep using that word.
I do not think it means what you think it means. :roflmao:
The fact that you can post that, kind of implies that they aren't censoring you...
While I disagree with the above, he's allowed his opinion.
I'd prefer it be done without the condescension, but let's just call it hyperbole..
It's obvious not everyone who preferred Motorolla at the time was a silly kid. The "oversize loser" comment was (IMHO) put there just to get people upset. Could be wrong. I'm sure he had a valid sampling methodology to justify his claim. :)
I do wonder, what were the JPEG times for those 2 systems?
How did they compare at the time?
Does anyone have a 486 anymore to be able to run a test?
Of course, without the same software on both machines, it might be more a test of the software.
I would think a 68030 might hold it's own against a 486/25, but I could be wrong..
desiv
I wasn't implying that I was being censored nor was I trying to be condescending to paolone. I'm not sure why you'd think otherwise. I was clearly agreeing with paolone and I was suggesting that HE would be censored/banned for not falling in line with all the 68k/PPC-only fanatics here (AKA Cult of the 68K). And yes, the correct word is censorship. Moderators on this forum just in the past 2 days have threatened to ban anyone who makes posts that they deem to be trolling or anti (Amiga, AROS, OS4, etc....). Can't get them to define trolling though....
As for 486 vs 68k performance, I have an A1200 with a 68030 accelerator (CSA 1250 12-Gauge) clocked at 50 Mhz and ran benchmarks against a 486DX 33. Performance is about equal even with the huge difference in clock speed. So paolone's remarks are spot-on in spite of all the irrational remarks that will be made about the 68k family and how it's "superior". It certainly is NOT superior.
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I wasn't implying that I was being censored nor was I trying to be condescending to paolone. I'm not sure why you'd think otherwise.
No, I meant that paolone's tone was (IMHO) condescending, not yours.
I mixed my pronouns, sorry... :confused:
And my comment about censoring was aimed at your post, but it was also including paolone's post as well, as I don't believe either will garnish a censor from the MODs.
My personal opinion; there was a lot of over-reaction about the "censorship" card. I could be wrong, who knows? :biglaugh:
As for 486 vs 68k performance, I have an A1200 with a 68030 accelerator (CSA 1250 12-Gauge) clocked at 50 Mhz and ran benchmarks against a 486DX 33. Performance is about equal even with the huge difference in clock speed. So paolone's remarks are spot-on in spite of all the irrational remarks that will be made about the 68k family and how it's "superior". It certainly is NOT superior.
I haven't yet seen any "irrational remarks." I tend to wait until something actually happens before I react to it... Takes the fun out of it sometimes tho. :laugh1:
I do think there are some aspects of the Motorola line that were superior personally. But I'm not really a CPU guy. Most of the advantages I felt might well have just been the Amiga's design.
As for benchmarks, they are tricky. I'm willing to be that for any benchmark you find that shows Intel's were better, there will be benchmarks that show just the opposite.
It's not that either is wrong. It's just that there are so many possible things to benchmark.
Benchmarks are kind of like statistics in that respect.
Personally, I go way back.
I had an Amiga and I had PCs. My Amiga 500 "felt" much faster to me than the PCs I had/worked on. But it was tricky because I was always doing different things on them. So, it's a very personal performance metric. :rofl:
I do know that for me, about the time I was using my Amiga 1200, I could feel the PCs outpacing the Amiga, especially in the applications side. Doom type games, graphic crunching apps, etc..
But I would use my Workbench on my A1200 and then at work, I would use Windows 3.1..
I much preferred the feel of Workbench. It "felt" much faster to me. So, to me at the time, the Amiga with the slower processor was faster than the PC with the much higher clockrate.
Now, much of this was actually Workbench and the Amiga's hardware design.
But that's how I viewed the Intel/Motorola comparison at the time.
Irrational? Maybe..
Now, for pure crunching numbers, the Intel could probably beat the Motorola. But it just felt so much faster on the Amiga..
Then again, I also used Mac's really early, and they felt really slow to me.
(Again, MY OPINION at the time)
So, I should have probably stopped and said "it's more about what you're doing with the CHIP than the CHIP itself."
and... er.. Wow.. WAY off topic here.. ummm.. and..
that's why I think Ben is against the x86!! :biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh:
(Wow, back to topic at the last second.)
desiv
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Bit of quick research..
You should know better than comparing MIPS values from two different CPUs, let alone architectures.
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Workbench should feel faster because it is partially in ROM. Windows having to run off the hard drive and shared RAM makes it a slug for snappiness.:(
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from my experiences with windows 3.1 and 95 back in the day, the difference between workbench and those is that workbench generally doesn't crash when you have the misfortune of wanting to launch an application :madashell:
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Moving OS4 to x86 would be a large undertaking, I estimate that it would take $1M. The kind of money that hasn't been invested in the Amiga for a long time. The kind of money that people immediately understand to be serious, beyond the mere vanity and hobby interest. At $75 a pop Mr Hermans would need 13,333 buyers to make the investment back.
Oh, come on! OS4 has been a pure pro bono development project for years. A hobby. So don't suddenly try to add money to the equation; since those doing the developments are doing it free of charge anyway, it's more a matter of what they spend their time doing. They could work on PPC, or they could work on something else, and the cost would still be $0. But the thing is, on x86 they would at least have *a chance* of reaching 13,000 sales (but still highly doubtful). With "X1000" I'd be surprised if they reached 130. Cheap, mainstream hardware that's easily obtainable is the key. Amiga is a hobby, it's not a market, it's not commerce. Only very few people are prepared to take out a second mortgage on their house in order to pay the money A-cube and A-eon are asking, for that level of hardware they are offering, just to run OS4. Cheap and easily available HW would change the picture. MorphOS 2 (also a hobby OS) has had 1,000 sales (I'd guess OS4.1.x has 1/3-1/2 of that in total), and porting the OS to Mac computers really helped. OK, still PPC, but at least high volume, mainstream HW. You have the ultra cheap e-mac, with everything built-in (even the monitor). You have the ultra-small mac mini. You have the cheap yet powerful and expandable Powermac. Laptop support for powerbook is probably imminent now (laptop support for the first time in Amiga history). All these machines runs in circles around anything A-cube has to offer at 5x-10x the money, and puts up a good fight against what A-eon is about to offer at 10x-50x the money (which will by all means still be 2007 level performance hardware). The MorphOS team soon has the whole flora of PPC mainstream machines covered, and when they do, they have *fully* leveraged whatever the PPC *had* to offer. And I said "had" because PPC has been dead for all purposes we Amigans would consider interesting ever since Apple dropped out of the game. Is it three years now? So by now, two questions are key, and this goes for both the hyperion brothers and the MorphOS Team: 1) Shall we pull the plug and call it a day within a year or two, or shall we migrate to greener pastures where life is still flourishing and where there is a future? And 2) If we have our minds set to continue instead of dropping it, where to go, ARM or x86? So if they want to continue, it's not a question of "if". It's a question of "when" and "where".
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Hm, which companies would that be? Individual Computers and... m3b? Elbox? ;)
Well, actually ACube and Vesalia...
There's something really good Hyperion and A-Eon are doing, but there are also some aspects of their behavior I feel controversial. Nothing against them, anyway.
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@desiv
I wasn't implying that I was being censored nor was I trying to be condescending to paolone. I'm not sure why you'd think otherwise. I was clearly agreeing with paolone and I was suggesting that HE would be censored/banned for not falling in line with all the 68k/PPC-only fanatics here (AKA Cult of the 68K). And yes, the correct word is censorship. Moderators on this forum just in the past 2 days have threatened to ban anyone who makes posts that they deem to be trolling or anti (Amiga, AROS, OS4, etc....). Can't get them to define trolling though...
Thanks, but I frankly doubt I will be moderated or even censored for this.
Let me be a little more verbose.
I just got sick of listening the same anti-x86 rants for 20 years by the same people who can't simply understand that processors are just like engines. They don't have a soul and are made of silicon. The best processor is not the most optimized/alternative, but the most popular, eve better if this means it's also the cheapest in the cost/performance ratio. A 2,8 GHz 64-bit quad-core CPU like the Phenom II X4 630 from AMD costs (here in Italy, for the END USER) less than 80 euros! Which should mean little more than 100 dollars. How much does ANY hi-performance (with hi-end meaning up to 2 GHz) multicore PPC processor cost? And how much will cost the motherboards to support them?
68K was choosen at the time because it was already popular and reasonably cheap, and able to bring the necessary degree of performance the original Amiga models required. It wasn't chosen because 80286 were scary, plagued or weirdly ill. Nor Intel was seen by original Amiga engineers like an alien devil from the 8th dimension! Would Commodore be alive today, they'd use x86 for the very same reasons (well, now that I think about it... Commodore does exist today... and they are using x86... ;-) ). Or maybe ARM, but surely no PPC. This anti-x86 crusade from Amigans is something that came up from Amigans themselves, and while most people just grown up and understood that's plain stupid, others are still fighting for... what reason exactly? To have a "different product" on the market nobody needs or cares about? Do these clever people really think x86 prices are low thanks to a few PPC processors still surviving on the market?
Please try to understand me: I have nothing against alternatives, I am always happy when some alternatives exist (I'm happy for ARM's success, to be clear), but not if their adoption acts like a boomerang, and becomes counter productive for adopters. There's a boundary between "being different" and "being masochistics" amigans have surpassed long ago.
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@desiv
As for 486 vs 68k performance, I have an A1200 with a 68030 accelerator (CSA 1250 12-Gauge) clocked at 50 Mhz and ran benchmarks against a 486DX 33. Performance is about equal even with the huge difference in clock speed. So paolone's remarks are spot-on in spite of all the irrational remarks that will be made about the 68k family and how it's "superior". It certainly is NOT superior.
It's fair compare an 386 against 486? because 030 was made to compete with 386.and you are comparing with an 486. 040 is the competitor of the 486, and i suspect that if the 030 is almost in par with the 486 then 040 is faster than 486 at the same clock speed.The 060 was made to compete with pentium when the fastest pentium was 100 mhz.I do not have benchmarks but i think that 060 50-66 mhz is as fast as pentium 100 or more in some operations.Of course we are talking abot raw CPU power because overall speed of the system the Amiga sweeps common PC of the era.What made me decide definitely for an Amiga was look a 486 in action, it was in ridiculous compared to the unexpanded Amiga 500 so i definitely bought an Amiga 1200
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But again the time to move across to x86 or X64 is long long long gone. It does not make any senese at all now. none.
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Thanks, but I frankly doubt I will be moderated or even censored for this.
Let me be a little more verbose.
I just got sick of listening the same anti-x86 rants for 20 years by the same people who can't simply understand that processors are just like engines. They don't have a soul and are made of silicon. The best processor is not the most optimized/alternative, but the most popular, eve better if this means it's also the cheapest in the cost/performance ratio. A 2,8 GHz 64-bit quad-core CPU like the Phenom II X4 630 from AMD costs (here in Italy, for the END USER) less than 80 euros! Which should mean little more than 100 dollars. How much does ANY hi-performance (with hi-end meaning up to 2 GHz) multicore PPC processor cost? And how much will cost the motherboards to support them?
68K was choosen at the time because it was already popular and reasonably cheap, and able to bring the necessary degree of performance the original Amiga models required. It wasn't chosen because 80286 were scary, plagued or weirdly ill. Nor Intel was seen by original Amiga engineers like an alien devil from the 8th dimension! Would Commodore be alive today, they'd use x86 for the very same reasons (well, now that I think about it... Commodore does exist today... and they are using x86... ;-) ). Or maybe ARM, but surely no PPC. This anti-x86 crusade from Amigans is something that came up from Amigans themselves, and while most people just grown up and understood that's plain stupid, others are still fighting for... what reason exactly? To have a "different product" on the market nobody needs or cares about? Do these clever people really think x86 prices are low thanks to a few PPC processors still surviving on the market?
Please try to understand me: I have nothing against alternatives, I am always happy when some alternatives exist (I'm happy for ARM's success, to be clear), but not if their adoption acts like a boomerang, and becomes counter productive for adopters. There's a boundary between "being different" and "being masochistics" amigans have surpassed long ago.
If jay miner developed the Amiga today, he would choose an ARM processor almost certainly and not a x86 IMHO
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If jay miner developed the Amiga today, he would choose an ARM processor almost certainly and not a x86 IMHO
Thanks, the day I'll need a medium I'll call you. In the meanwhile, I can only answer that in the early 80s Jay Miner created a straordinary media computer system when regular computer systems and workstation were mute and monochromatic, adopting an amazing revolutionary graphic interface with a RAM drive, when others relied on DOS, floppies and costy hard drives.
Would he be alive today, maybe he wouldn't even care about creating a computer, all in all any regular PC can do everything and more. He would have created something else, but not less extraordinary and amazing, that would have foresaw and revolutionized its market.
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He said in his opnion which you then go on to give telling us exactly what he would have done
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What made me decide definitely for an Amiga was look a 486 in action, it was in ridiculous compared to the unexpanded Amiga 500 so i definitely bought an Amiga 1200
Strange. It was looking how a good 486dx/2 66 MHz PC performed with DOS and Windows applications and games (DooM anyone?), that I took the exact opposite decision, switching from my 68030-accelerated A1200 to a Pentium 90 machine. And, well, at the time I realized that if you wanted to have a PC that looked well in graphics and sound, you'd have to spend a lot more than on a Amiga, but if you wanted to have an Amiga with the same processor power of a PC, you wouldn't have to spend less: even more.
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He said in his opnion which you then go on to give telling us exactly what he would have done
That's exactly what I meant to do...
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That's exactly what I meant to do...
Arse
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Nobody knows what Jay Miner would have done, but my personal belief is that he would have gone to the tablet world, it should be possible to beat both iOS and Android, they both feel like they lack something, but I can't put my finger on it.
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Everyone has an opinion about future directions. ARM processors, tablets, advanced cellphones, etc all have been repeatedly posted.
Personallly, I can't type on a pocket device and tablets usually offer little in thw way of keyboards other than screen based touch keyboards. Frankly, I'm so o;d fashioned I still prefer old click style keyboards with keyswitches from companies like Alps. That's why I still have a couple of old IBM and Tandy keyboards around. Good keyswitches+better feedback and less typing errors.
I may eventually even get around to adopting a laptop, but I'm not giving up my PC yet.
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Oh, come on! OS4 has been a pure pro bono development project for years. A hobby. So don't suddenly try to add money to the equation; since those doing the developments are doing it free of charge anyway, it's more a matter of what they spend their time doing. They could work on PPC, or they could work on something else, and the cost would still be $0. But the thing is, on x86 they would at least have *a chance* of reaching 13,000 sales (but still highly doubtful). With "X1000" I'd be surprised if they reached 130.
Are you suggesting the Frieden brothers have been working for free of all along, how could you possibly know? The figure of 130 sales seems a little pessimistic, a recent survey on Aw.net shows 275 members intending to buy the X1000, and of course this doesn't include others from non english websites or those that never participated in that particular poll.
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And, well, at the time I realized that if you wanted to have a PC that looked well in graphics and sound, you'd have to spend a lot more than on a Amiga
Although I think I held out a bit longer, it was the same for me basically.
Part of it was the fact that everything I did that I was paid for was PC. (and some Mac)
But most of it was the cost of an accelerator with RAM for my Amiga. For that, I was able to piece together a PC (I think it was an IBM blue lightening chip, which was what, a 486/40 or 50??) with a CDRom (1X, whoo hoo!) and a cheapo sound card. I'm sure the hard drive was a hand me down from someone's upgrade.
(I was able to repair a VGA monitor (bad cable) that I got for free, which helped.)
Except for DOOM types, I really missed the Amiga games a lot, but I was starting to do a lot of Foxbase (and a bit of FoxPro for Windows, can't remember exactly when that started) and needed a machine to do that...
I don't remember thinking VGA was better than Amiga AGA. Not until a video card upgrade or 2. But that's when I realized that the lack of upgradable video in the Amiga 500/1200 was a killer.. Mac owners were totally fine with buying a new Mac when a faster one was available.
PC owners could upgrade as long as they could. As a tinkerer, I liked that.
And as someone working multiple jobs, I couldn't afford expensive upgrades.
desiv
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Are you suggesting the Frieden brothers have been working for free of all along, how could you possibly know? The figure of 130 sales seems a little pessimistic, a recent survey on Aw.net shows 275 members intending to buy the X1000, and of course this doesn't include other non english websites or those that never participated in that particular poll.
Gosh, if the 25:5:1 market theory I've read about longa ago (*) is somehow good and applicable, it would mean that 130 sales would be optimistic.
(*) Many years ago I read a book about product marketing (sorry, forgot title and author), and the 25:5:1 theory states that on 25 people you'll contact, 5 will show interest in your product and 1 will actually buy it. This basically means that on 275 people "willing" to buy a X1000, well... just 55 actually will.
I sincerely hope for A-Eon they will be more, many more...
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Gosh, if the 25:5:1 market theory I've read about longa ago (*) is somehow good and applicable, it would mean that 130 sales would be optimistic.
(*) Many years ago I read a book about product marketing (sorry, forgot title and author), and the 25:5:1 theory states that on 25 people you'll contact, 5 will show interest in your product and 1 will actually buy it. This basically means that on 275 people "willing" to buy a X1000, well... just 55 actually will.
I sincerely hope for A-Eon they will be more, many more...
I've gotten 9 people to promise to vote for me for president, based on my pro-duelling policy. I guess I'll need to round up a hell of a lot more people then :)
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David Pleasance wanted Amigas to run Windows NT.
That would've been pretty shit.
Thus, if Commodore UK had won the auction, we'd all have left the Amiga ages ago anyway.
We've had our PPC bed made for us, and now it's time to lie in it.
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Greed > user experience.
Oh dear.
If you really think that, there is nothing I can say that will make you think otherwise. This might be because you didn't think about it.
Good thing is, Amiwest convinced me that not everyone is like this.
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No comment.
Humor me :roflmao:
Seriously, in everyday work situations you can't use an Amiga for that, I get my route and customer info through PDF and most documents are MS Office Word/Excel 2007.
And I rather use Photoshop than Dpaint.
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If you really think that, there is nothing I can say that will make you think otherwise. This might be because you didn't think about it.
My reasoning was in trying to come up with any reason the company would stick with PPC.
Pros:
Captive hardware market
No cost of porting
Cons:
Users pay high prices
Users have slower systems
Lower adoption rate
The only pro's I see are due to greed.
If they didn't want a monopoly hardware market, why didn't they port to Mac hardware long ago like Morphos did?
I don't see any benefit to PPC for end users, only downsides.
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My reasoning was in trying to come up with any reason the company would stick with PPC.
Pros:
Captive hardware market
No cost of porting
Cons:
Users pay high prices
Users have slower systems
Lower adoption rate
The only pro's I see are due to greed.
If they didn't want a monopoly hardware market, why didn't they port to Mac hardware long ago like Morphos did?
I don't see any benefit to PPC for end users, only downsides.
In the late 90's PPC was considered by many in the Amiga community to be the rightful successor to the 68k. Just sayin.
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Being wrong 12+ years ago dosn't make you right today...
It makes you more wrong and pig headed.
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Are you suggesting the Frieden brothers have been working for free of all along
What I'm suggesting is that the Frieden brothers has gotten whatever money they receive at the end of each month from elsewhere.
how could you possibly know?
Hyperion is a microscopic game porting company that has no products, no real business, and I seriously doubt they have made any serious money at all during the last decade. And with serious money I mean enough to support a couple of full time employees (let alone some 30+ or whatever being claimed occasionally), with salaries, taxes and/or whatever social welfare fees of their country, every month, for a decade. Do the math. Two SW engineers (including taxes) requires margins from sales of at least 1,000,000-1,500,000 EUR for a decade. It's not plausible; somehow I doubt "Gorky 17 for Linux" was (and is!) *that* successful. But by all means, feel free to post a copy of their latest financial report here and prove me wrong. I'm sure it's possible to request it from somewhere. Didn't they change their corporate entity from an unlimited to a limited form some year ago after all? AFAIK, in most countries this means much more rigorous requirements for accounting, financial reports, audits, as well as making this kind of information more accessible to the public.
The figure of 130 sales seems a little pessimistic, a recent survey on Aw.net shows 275 members intending to buy the X1000
275?! Well, it's all fine and dandy then! (Just kidding of course!) ;)
No seriously, what that survey measures (as well as the beta tester inquiry), is how many people bothered to respond to a mail or to a poll. What those "surveys" *doesn't* measure, is how many people that will actually cash up UKP 1,500++/USD 2,400++/EUR 1,700++ for the thing! Real, hard-earned money, in real life! If *only* 275 people bothered to answer to a poll (which most people in Amiga-land do just for political reasons, to make a statement, or to show some support, or numerous other "false" reasons), something that is close to effortless and completely free of charge, then I think it would actually be *optimistic* to think that as many as half of those will actually follow through in real life. It's not peanut money, and the hardware is unproven and nothing spectacular in any way. Ah well, time will tell. But the point is that they could multiply that figure many times over simply by making their OS accessible in a broad scale on mainstream HW, even so if only targeted towards mainstream *PPC* HW...
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In the late 90's PPC was considered by many in the Amiga community to be the rightful successor to the 68k. Just sayin.
...much because this was the migration path Apple used for their Mac's. But then again, Apples migration path for their Mac's didn't stop at PPC, it continued to... X86! :)
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...much because this was the migration path Apple
No, it was alot more about sticking with Motorola - Apple were the jerks that killed the PowerPC when they ruined the marked by preventing MacOS licensing to CHRP machines.
People seem to forget history around here :P
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My reasoning was in trying to come up with any reason the company would stick with PPC.
Pros:
Captive hardware market
No cost of porting
Cons:
Users pay high prices
Users have slower systems
Lower adoption rate
The only pro's I see are due to greed.
If they didn't want a monopoly hardware market, why didn't they port to Mac hardware long ago like Morphos did?
I don't see any benefit to PPC for end users, only downsides.
The problem of your reasoning is that I'm also an end user (and like me others more) and I see benefit with PowerPC. Don't force others to see what you want to see.If you like x86 so badly you have AROS, What is your problem?
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The problem of your reasoning is that I'm also an end user (and like me others more) and I see benefit with PowerPC. Don't force others to see what you want to see.If you like x86 so badly you have AROS, What is your problem?
So what you're saying then is that he has no right to express his opinion.
He isn't forcing you to do anything, what he's saying is that he disagrees with your choice. This is absolutely his right. Just as much as it is absolutely your right to make that choice and disagree with his assessment.
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No, it was alot more about sticking with Motorola
"Sticking with Motorola" could perhaps have played a part for those mainly responsible for executing the PPC route for Amiga (Phase5); they probably had good and solid relations to people over at Motorola since they were already into the 68k business. That, in combination with Apples chosen route, probably made PPC look like the natural path for Amiga as well. After all, there was a solid road map for the PPC desktop CPU's, and the future looked bright. This is probably also why "In the late 90's PPC was considered by many in the Amiga community to be the rightful successor to the 68k". But then again, as some MorphOS developer has said in a forum post, and as bPlan has said by their actions (and both of them being related to former Phase5): "If we had known back then, what we know today about PPC, we would have chosen differently".
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The day Amiga goes x86 is the day I retire from the scene.
Bad news dude. Amiga went bye-bye 15 years ago.
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Poppycock!
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A 2,8 GHz 64-bit quad-core CPU like the Phenom II X4 630 from AMD costs (here in Italy, for the END USER) less than 80 euros! Which should mean little more than 100 dollars. How much does ANY hi-performance (with hi-end meaning up to 2 GHz) multicore PPC processor cost? And how much will cost the motherboards to support them?
Trevor said in some interview the PA6T (aka "mystery processor") was 500 US$ alone.
But there are also ppcs that have prices that aren't that dramatically nuts. Unfortunately these chips are rather rarely fit into the desktop computing domain. These are mostly low end chips like 512x or chips that include things not needed for desktop computing and hence are expensive (PowerQUICC and QorIQ) or high end chips that are out of question again (the big ones by ibm) or those that aren't available on the free market (like the XBOX 360 cpu).
What's left is some models with a fairly just-not-totally-insane pricetag like the 86x0 or some QorIQs. But they cannot compete against x86 on the desktop market. And it is highly debateable to use ppc longer than reqired for desktop computing. Freescale's going to push it now a bit again and I think they have a remote chance (probably the very last chance for ppc in a broader market).
We'll see in about two years time whether they are successful or failed epicly (again).
For MorphOS I think in two years time it will be highnoon: More or less all ppc Macs supported by then. So either
a) stop it then at all,
b) move to other ISA or
c) (most unlikely) use new ppc gear based on QorIQ Altivec.
From current POV i'd suggest b), but am still dreaming a bit about c) and am fearing a).
But today MorphOS is fun as it is.
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The problem of your reasoning is that I'm also an end user (and like me others more) and I see benefit with PowerPC. Don't force others to see what you want to see.If you like x86 so badly you have AROS, What is your problem?
I've got zero problems with any user doing anything they want.
I do have issues when the people who officially are in control of the future of the platform are making decisions that make no sense from most points of view.
I do use Aros, but I'd like an official AmigaOS with some future.
The Aros devs have to work many times as hard as Hyperion would in order to accomplish the same result without source code. This is a waste of their talents and a drain on the community we have left.
If I didn't care about the platform, I wouldn't complain so much.
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My reasoning was in trying to come up with any reason the company would stick with PPC.
Pros:
Captive hardware market
No cost of porting
Cons:
Users pay high prices
Users have slower systems
Lower adoption rate
The only pro's I see are due to greed.
If they didn't want a monopoly hardware market, why didn't they port to Mac hardware long ago like Morphos did?
I don't see any benefit to PPC for end users, only downsides.
actaully l think you have to look esle where you talking greed and starts with A and ends in inc
what l have read in the past in the orginal contract hpyerion where forbiden from porting
to x86 l would thought this still applys as from what understand they have the owership
of what they ported only .
remember they where given the task by amiga inc to port it they made the ppc descion
ad then they thought later oh are amiga anywhere tke f where intrested in orginal amiga os at all untill there plans never worked out.
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I've completely given up on A inc. That's not even greed, that's pure stupidity and lack of any business sense.
I'm pretty sure that Hyperion has the crown jewels, the whole OS and AmigaOS trademarks to do with as they please. I have no references, but I thought that's what was said at last years AmiWest.
Whether Amiga inc still has the right to use the source code too is anyones guess. All I've heard is that they have most of the trademarks and the old hardware designs.
Is Amiga inc still really in business and if so, what do they do?
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Is Amiga inc still really in business and if so, what do they do?
The last I heard, they had sold the Amiga name to CommodoreUSA, a company with even LESS business sense than the old A Inc.
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The last I heard, they had sold the Amiga name to CommodoreUSA, a company with even LESS business sense than the old A Inc.
They licensed the Amiga name to Commodore USA.
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Yes, Amiga Inc licensed the name AmigaOS to Hyperion and the Amiga name to Commodore USA. They also licensed 3.1 to Hyperion, so as far as it goes the license thing is just small print and makes no difference in terms of day to day business.
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Actually Hyperion got AmigaOS and the source code in the lawsuit. It's not a license, Hyperion are the owners.
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Actually Hyperion got AmigaOS and the source code in the lawsuit. It's not a license, Hyperion are the owners.
You didn't read the decision, did you? Hyperion and A. Inc.'s resolution gives Hyperion an exclusive license to use AmigaOS3.1 to develop AmigaOS4, AOS5 a future variants as well as the right to use the AmigaOS name. They apparently as also allowed (with their associated companies) to market computers as AmigaOne computers.
The fact that they don't have control over the brand name Amiga is what led CUSA to be able to negotiate with A. Inc. for the use of that trademark on other computers.
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No, I didn't, but I should have double-checked myself.
I can't find the decision, but the wording I read all over the net seems like more than a license.
"an exclusive, perpetual, worldwide right to AmigaOS 3.1 in order to use, develop, modify, commercialize, distribute and market AmigaOS 4.x (and subsequent versions of AmigaOS including without limitation AmigaOS 5) in any form, on any medium and for any current or future hardware platform under the exclusive trademark "AmigaOS" (Amiga operating system) and using other associated trademarks (such as the "BoingBall" logo).
Serious question: How does that differ from ownership? It's a perpetual and exclusive right, which sounds like ownership to me.
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No, I didn't, but I should have double-checked myself.
I can't find the decision, but the wording I read all over the net seems like more than a license.
Serious question: How does that differ from ownership? It's a perpetual and exclusive right, which sounds like ownership to me.
In the long run, there is no real difference (except that other license holders like Cloanto can still distribute their products).
I'm still not convinced that Amiga Inc. claim to ownership of these properties was valid. So the agreement really helps Hyperion since they now can claim to be the valid holder of the preperty.
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Actually Hyperion got AmigaOS and the source code in the lawsuit. It's not a license, Hyperion are the owners.
No, they are certainly *not*, please read the settlement!
The document is actually *overly clear* on this point, it's "the Amiga Parties" (Amiga Inc) who are the sole and undisputed owners of Amiga OS 3.1 ("Grant 1a"), but Hyperion has *the right to use it* ("Grant 1b") much in any way they want, during the duration of the agreement.
In fact, the agreement means in practice that Hyperion aren't even the sole owners of OS4:
Hyperion has built a house (AmigaOS4). They have built it using construction materials that *in major parts* are *loaned* (Amiga OS 3.1). Hyperion actually acknowledge in the settlement that the loaned bricks and planks (Amiga OS 3.1) used to build the OS4 house are indeed owned by Amiga Inc. Amiga Inc acknowledge in the settlement that the house is owned by Hyperion, *except* for the loaned bricks and planks they used to actually build the house, which are still owned by Amiga Inc.
Now, who owns the house?
The situation gets even more problematic if you actually consider OS4 to be true derivate work, since there are several unattended ownership/copyright issues surrounding various parts of Amiga OS 3.1. Third party entities (like Cloanto for example) claimed to be co-authors (hence a stake holder) of Amiga OS 3. William S. Hawes is the author of AREXX, which Commodore included in OS 3 without his permission, which Hyperion still does AFAIK. There are others. Heck, even the entire path of transferring of Amiga IP from Commodore, through the previous IP owners, to what's today known as Amiga Inc is dubious:
http://sites.google.com/site/freeamiga/
Reading that site raises the question of how much this agreement between Amiga Inc and Hyperion is worth at all? Does Amiga Inc even have the right to make deals with Hyperion regarding the IP in the first place? It might work just fine as long as no old stake holder with his documents in order is opposing it? Like a house built of a deck of cards; it might look like a pretty construction as long as it's left alone. But as soon as someone opens the window on a windy day and let the drag in, it can collapse in an instant.
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The last I heard, they had sold the Amiga name to CommodoreUSA, a company with even LESS business sense than the old A Inc.
No, it was a *license to use*. Much like in Hyperion's case (they don't own any trade marks either).
Hyperion has a license to four marks: "AmigaOS", "Amiga OS", "AmigaOne", "Amiga One", limited for marketing of OS4 and HW needed to operate it.
Commodore has a license to the mark: "Amiga", for marketing of their "All-in-one" computers.
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Serious question: How does that differ from ownership?
In the long run, there is no real difference
Well, for one thing, you can't sell what you don't own.
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No, it was alot more about sticking with Motorola - Apple were the jerks that killed the PowerPC when they ruined the marked by preventing MacOS licensing to CHRP machines.
People seem to forget history around here :P
According to Steve Jobs, the clones are unwilling to pay higher licensing cost.
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The situation gets even more problematic if you actually consider OS4 to be true derivate work, since there are several unattended ownership/copyright issues surrounding various parts of Amiga OS 3.1. Third party entities (like Cloanto for example) claimed to be co-authors (hence a stake holder) of Amiga OS 3. William S. Hawes is the author of AREXX, which Commodore included in OS 3 without his permission, which Hyperion still does AFAIK. There are others. Heck, even the entire path of transferring of Amiga IP from Commodore, through the previous IP owners, to what's today known as Amiga Inc is dubious:
http://sites.google.com/site/freeamiga/
Reading that site raises the question of how much this agreement between Amiga Inc and Hyperion is worth at all? Does Amiga Inc even have the right to make deals with Hyperion regarding the IP in the first place? It might work just fine as long as no old stake holder with his documents in order is opposing it? Like a house built of a deck of cards; it might look like a pretty construction as long as it's left alone. But as soon as someone opens the window on a windy day and let the drag in, it can collapse in an instant.
And if you read the court dox it gets even more fun - Hyperion only own the right to sell the OS4 binaries, the source code remains the property of the developers.
All in all, I'm not entirely certain how this could be made more of a minefield legally than it is now.
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According to Steve Jobs, the clones are unwilling to pay higher licensing cost.
I imagine that whilst there is some truth to that, the idea of other OS's running up and possibly beating them on their own hardware didn't make Jobs all that happy. This is backed up by the fact that they refused point blank to supply the necessary info to Be Inc regarding post CHRP hardware.
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I don't understand how that's such an obsatcle. Linux runs on those machines, so why couldn't BeOS?
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I don't understand how that's such an obsatcle. Linux runs on those machines, so why couldn't BeOS?
Linux took years to run on those machines.
When you're a small company that will live or die based on your next release, you can't afford to wait for years. You act now, or you're used as an object lesson for other companies.
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I imagine that whilst there is some truth to that, the idea of other OS's running up and possibly beating them on their own hardware didn't make Jobs all that happy. This is backed up by the fact that they refused point blank to supply the necessary info to Be Inc regarding post CHRP hardware.
The desktop flora would look very different today, had Jobs had acted differently regarding the clones. As would the situation for PPC.
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William S. Hawes is the author of AREXX, which Commodore included in OS 3 without his permission
* Citation needed.
Never heard about this before. Could you provide a reference ?
greets,
Staf.
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The desktop flora would look very different today, had Jobs had acted differently regarding the clones. As would the situation for PPC.
Probably true, but then Apple would have had to focus on making money via their OS and forego all that lucrative income they get from rigorously controlling their hardware market.
Steve Jobs is no genius when it comes to the design of hardware or software (hey, if you doubt me I've got some old Apple IIIs I'd like to sell you), but his marketing skills have made him I very wealthy man.
How many times have you heard an Apple customer tout something he thinks is superior (that Apple constricts in features or how its used) and defends paying more than he would for it in a more open market (maybe because he likes Steve mining his pockets while telling him what he can do with his purchase).
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* Citation needed.
Never heard about this before. Could you provide a reference ?
greets,
Staf.
IBM and Commodore had a deal where OS/2 was allowed to use the GUI from Workbench, and CBM could use the Rexx system.
... Or something like that...
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IBM and Commodore had a deal where OS/2 was allowed to use the GUI from Workbench, and CBM could use the Rexx system.
I know it's the Internet so I'm not saying this site is accurate, but that is what I heard as well. It's on this site:
http://www.os2bbs.com/os2news/os2warp.html
In this timeframe, a deal was made with Commodore. Commodore licensed IBM's REXX scripting language for inclusion in their AmigaOS, and IBM took many GUI design ideas from the AmigaOS for their new GUI. With the release of OS/2 2.0,
desiv
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How many times have you heard an Apple customer tout something he thinks is superior (that Apple constricts in features or how its used) and defends paying more than he would for it in a more open market (maybe because he likes Steve mining his pockets while telling him what he can do with his purchase).
Thought you were talking about AmigaInc/Hyperion and the Amigaworld fans there for a while, very familiar...
;)
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If *only* 275 people bothered to answer to a poll (which most people in Amiga-land do just for political reasons, to make a statement, or to show some support, or numerous other "false" reasons), something that is close to effortless and completely free of charge, then I think it would actually be *optimistic* to think that as many as half of those will actually follow through in real life.
Meanwhile, in the real world, the idea that all potential customers would ever vote in a poll on a forum is considered ridiculous, and any sales or marketing guy would expect sales to far outstrip any results you'd get on a poll like that.
Even the idea that all potential customers are even reading a specific website - even in a small market like the Amiga market - is patently ridiculous.
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Gosh, if the 25:5:1 market theory I've read about longa ago (*) is somehow good and applicable, it would mean that 130 sales would be optimistic.
(*) Many years ago I read a book about product marketing (sorry, forgot title and author), and the 25:5:1 theory states that on 25 people you'll contact, 5 will show interest in your product and 1 will actually buy it. This basically means that on 275 people "willing" to buy a X1000, well... just 55 actually will.
I sincerely hope for A-Eon they will be more, many more...
You are "abusing" that ratio wildly. What those kind of ratios refers to is not self reported data on a website, but active sales.
E.g. if *you* go out and call 25 people, only 5 will be interested and 1 of those will buy, so you need to go out and actually contact 25 times as many people as you hope will buy. The ratios are also by no means set in stone - they are examples. Some products do much better, some much worse. I've done sales. I've seen those ratios.
For starters, you can't know where on that axis those 275 people fall, and you have no basis for assuming that those 275 people are the only ones interested. In fact, there is every reason to assume that since the 275 are self-selected from readers of a website, the actual number of interested people is much, much higher, even before any sales/marketing effort to contact more people. Again, I've done sales and I've done polls to determine interests, and I've seen how wildly poll numbers usually differs from reality.
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I know it's the Internet so I'm not saying this site is accurate, but that is what I heard as well. It's on this site:
http://www.os2bbs.com/os2news/os2warp.html
desiv
If this is true then Microsoft Windows used also Amiga GUI elements.As windows 3 is almost identical to OS/2 (stolen work from OS/2 co-development with IBM?)
OS/2:
(http://pages.prodigy.net/michaln/history/os211/os212_tut.gif)
Windows 3:
(http://pages.prodigy.net/michaln/history/os211/win30.gif)
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I imagine that whilst there is some truth to that, the idea of other OS's running up and possibly beating them on their own hardware didn't make Jobs all that happy. This is backed up by the fact that they refused point blank to supply the necessary info to Be Inc regarding post CHRP hardware.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maIgu_7oLm0
Steve Jobs increased the license fees.
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Meanwhile, in the real world, the idea that all potential customers would ever vote in a poll on a forum is considered ridiculous, and any sales or marketing guy would expect sales to far outstrip any results you'd get on a poll like that.
Even the idea that all potential customers are even reading a specific website - even in a small market like the Amiga market - is patently ridiculous.
Meanwhile, in the real world, the idea that actually anyone else outside the very small and tight amigaworld.net/amigans.net circle *would even consider* chipping up a staggering UKP 1,500++/USD 2,400++/EUR 1,700++ (ANYONE AT ALL!!) for this kind of unproven, 2007 level performance HW, that has no other benefit than being able to run a "gimmick" (to anyone else but the above mentioned tight circle) OS4, is nothing short of ridiculous. "Hmm, what to do, take my entire family on a nice vacation next summer, or buy this 2007 level computing technology so I can see what this gimmick thing called 'OS4' is about, at the same cost? Hmm, difficult choice..."
I'd say that a poll or an offer for a betatest program on those two sites alone *more* than covers the whole potential user customer base, since this is where the people are that will pay *any amount* of money for *anything at all* with the right trade mark slapped on it!
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Meanwhile, in the real world, the idea that actually anyone else outside the very small and tight amigaworld.net/amigans.net circle *would even consider* chipping up a staggering UKP 1,500++/USD 2,400++/EUR 1,700++ (ANYONE AT ALL!!) for this kind of unproven, 2007 level performance HW, that has no other benefit than being able to run a "gimmick" (to anyone else but the above mentioned tight circle) OS4, is nothing short of ridiculous. "Hmm, what to do, take my entire family on a nice vacation next summer, or buy this 2007 level computing technology so I can see what this gimmick thing called 'OS4' is about, at the same cost? Hmm, difficult choice..."
I'd say that a poll or an offer for a betatest program on those two sites alone *more* than covers the whole potential user customer base, since this is where the people are that will pay *any amount* of money for *anything at all* with the right trade mark slapped on it!
Ive seen blizzard PPC cards and A4000Ts go for 600 dollars on multiple occasions.
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How many times have you heard an Apple customer tout something he thinks is superior (that Apple constricts in features or how its used) and defends paying more than he would for it in a more open market (maybe because he likes Steve mining his pockets while telling him what he can do with his purchase).
Just as often as I hear windows users tout the same :)
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If this is true then Microsoft Windows used also Amiga GUI elements.As windows 3 is almost identical to OS/2 (stolen work from OS/2 co-development with IBM?)
I guess you don't know that Microsoft and IBM worked in collaboration on OS/2. Eventually they split. Yes, the presentation layer of OS/2 and Windows 3.x is nearly identical (visually).
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Ive seen blizzard PPC cards and A4000Ts go for 600 dollars on multiple occasions.
$600 is a few nice lunches, $2400 is a mortgage payment.
I'm much more inclined to blow $600 on something next to useless than $2400.
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$600 is a few nice lunches, $2400 is a mortgage payment.
I'm much more inclined to blow $600 on something next to useless than $2400.
Ah if you own more than 20 Amiga's you know it gets to large figures.
Some collections exceed 10K/20K
But your right, it's sometimes insane, it almost looks as the prices at when the hardware was new and just released.
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Ive seen blizzard PPC cards and A4000Ts go for 600 dollars on multiple occasions.
Insane, I agree.
But those things are at least collectibles. Personally, I see a lot more value in an A4000T than an "Teron/AmigaOne" for instance. Don't you?
The route Hyperion is on is very difficult to understand. They deliberately opt out safe, easily obtainable HW that everyone can find and afford, in favor of something "new" (albeit not performance wise) hence unproven, at a price that most people consider being science fiction, and totally out of reach.
I am still puzzled why?
But reconnecting to the topic of this thread - When Hyperion isn't even considering the *PPC* mainstream HW options, what are the chances that they will ever consider the x86?
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Insane, I agree.
But those things are at least collectibles. Personally, I see a lot more value in an A4000T than an "Teron/AmigaOne" for instance. Don't you?
The route Hyperion is on is very difficult to understand. They deliberately opt out safe, easily obtainable HW that everyone can find and afford, in favor of something "new" (albeit not performance wise) hence unproven, at a price that most people consider being science fiction, and totally out of reach.
I am still puzzled why?
But reconnecting to the topic of this thread - When Hyperion isn't even considering the *PPC* mainstream HW options, what are the chances that they will ever consider the x86?
well, they still sell OS4 for the SAM boards so they have that as income as well. The X1000 won't be the primary or presumably even main machine for OS4
As for why they aren't to X86, I am guessing the same reasons I suspect Morph OS isn't moving to x86. A ton of work, with uncertain return on investment, competition with AROS, a much bigger pond to swim in etc.
Who knows?
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well, they still sell OS4 for the SAM boards so they have that as income as well. The X1000 won't be the primary or presumably even main machine for OS4
Yes, they have those mandatory sales for the sam boards to count on. No single Sam sale wihtout OS4.1.x! That counts for something, I guess. AFAIK, the threshold for making a batch of those Sam boards is 30 or so, and I am sure they have sold at least a couple of batches.
They have also had some income from the "Timberwolf" bounty.
And they have recently raised some capital from the "X1000" pre-payment beta tester program AFAIK. (Has payments been confirmed for this? Anyone knows?)
And now they are planning some new sales of OS4.1.x towards Classic users. I'm sure they will get at least a 50 sold, or so. That's also some money...
What more, "income" wise?
Time for some merchandise sales? Probably. A shame that Hyperion can't do that...
As for why they aren't to X86, I am guessing the same reasons I suspect Morph OS isn't moving to x86. A ton of work,
Absolutely! That work effort is not to be underestimated. It's overwhelming, and that's probably why it will never happen.
with uncertain return on investment,
Please don't mix financial terms into the equations. The work on OS4 is not funded like "normal" commercial SW development project; it's mainly done on a hobby basis. So it's more a matter of what the developers are spending their time doing, rather than some cost. The cost would be the same, be them working on PPC, or X86.
competition with AROS,
Huh?!??
a much bigger pond to swim in etc.
A *living* pond, perhaps even enough to make some profit from...
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"Hmm, what to do, take my entire family on a nice vacation next summer, or buy this 2007 level computing technology so I can see what this gimmick thing called 'OS4' is about, at the same cost? Hmm, difficult choice..."
Errmmm... ok. Which one are you going to do? :confused:
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Ive seen blizzard PPC cards and A4000Ts go for 600 dollars on multiple occasions.
PPC cards in the EU go for 300-400 bucks so that's 500-700 dollars for the PPC cards alone. Maybe the real answer for OS4 increased user numbers is a new PPC board for A1200s and some tower cases. At least then it is a real Amiga + extras. How much is a 604 PPC CPU in bulk alone though?
As to others, OS4 is an alternative to Windows, as is Linux and OS X. Choice is a good thing. The problem has always been value for money hardware to run the damned thing on!
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PPC cards in the EU go for 300-400 bucks so that's 500-700 dollars for the PPC cards alone. Maybe the real answer for OS4 increased user numbers is a new PPC board for A1200s and some tower cases. At least then it is a real Amiga + extras. How much is a 604 PPC CPU in bulk alone though?
As to others, OS4 is an alternative to Windows, as is Linux and OS X. Choice is a good thing. The problem has always been value for money hardware to run the damned thing on!
Your last point reflects pretty much what everybogy has repeatedly said, the cost of the f'ing hardware's too high.
And how many 1200s are left that someone going to start PPC accelerator production again? How big is the market? 50?100? A few hundred?
Hey at least its a real Amiga?
Thank god I haven't waited for that train. It ain't pulling out of the station
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Errmmm... ok. Which one are you going to do? :confused:
Well, I could really use a vacation, while a "X1000" would be completely useless for me, so...
;)
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Hyperion has built a house (AmigaOS4). They have built it using construction materials that *in major parts* are *loaned* (Amiga OS 3.1). Hyperion actually acknowledge in the settlement that the loaned bricks and planks (Amiga OS 3.1) used to build the OS4 house are indeed owned by Amiga Inc. Amiga Inc acknowledge in the settlement that the house is owned by Hyperion, *except* for the loaned bricks and planks they used to actually build the house, which are still owned by Amiga Inc.
Now, who owns the house?
...
Like a house built of a deck of cards; it might look like a pretty construction as long as it's left alone. But as soon as someone opens the window on a windy day and let the drag in, it can collapse in an instant.
Serious question: How does that differ from ownership?
In the long run, there is no real difference
Well guess what?
Pluritas ... is currently accepting offers to acquire the worldwide rights to the AMIGA trademarks and associated intellectual property (http://www.benzinga.com/press-releases/10/11/b566868/pluritas-engaged-by-amiga-inc-to-market-the-global-ip-rights-to-the-ico)
Wow...
(http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_278/1213072739076oqQ.jpg)
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Meanwhile, in the real world, the idea that actually anyone else outside the very small and tight amigaworld.net/amigans.net circle *would even consider* chipping up a staggering UKP 1,500++/USD 2,400++/EUR 1,700++ (ANYONE AT ALL!!) for this kind of unproven, 2007 level performance HW, that has no other benefit than being able to run a "gimmick" (to anyone else but the above mentioned tight circle) OS4, is nothing short of ridiculous. "Hmm, what to do, take my entire family on a nice vacation next summer, or buy this 2007 level computing technology so I can see what this gimmick thing called 'OS4' is about, at the same cost? Hmm, difficult choice..."
Most people who had Amiga's as their first/second home computer as kids or teenagers are now in their 30's/40's, and thus many of us have a fairly high disposable income, and have no problem paying fairly steep amounts for our hobbies.
Some people blow GBP 15k-20k on a sports car, others spend 1,500++ on a niche computer or five. I've already spend a 200-300 or so on a Minimig, plan to buy an FPGA Arcade and a Natami, and yes, an X1000 too, and I'm considering buying a classic. Note that this is despite having several x86 boxes, both servers and laptops, and contributing to AROS.
As of this January, I'd been away from the community for about 12 years. I came back because of the X1000.
I think you seriously underestimate the value of nostalgia and of community and what people are willing (and able) to pay for it.
Yes, the X1000 will never be a mass market product. Besides the point. It also will likely do better than a lot of naysayers are assuming. As others have pointed out, the prices for Amiga-related hardware demonstrates that this community has a lot of money. Since few people use these machines as their only or even primary computer, capabilities and performance is secondary to other aspects, and price too is down to whether or not we can afford it, not so much whether or not it's cost effective.
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As others have pointed out, the prices for Amiga-related hardware demonstrates that this community has a lot of money.
I picture people snorting cocaine through rolled up £100 notes off of gold plated X1000s! How posh!
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Besides the point. It also will likely do better than a lot of naysayers are assuming.
And your evidence for this lies in what? Not to get off on a rant here, but Aeon are a completely untested and unknown quantity. You have the Sam which is a great deal more reasonable on the wallet and sales for it have pretty much dried up - practically everyone who wanted one has one.
All of this assumes that the X1000 ever ships of course. Given the slow shipment of hardware for betatesters, this really is up in the air.
As others have pointed out, the prices for Amiga-related hardware demonstrates that this community has a lot of money.
Back at the beginning of the naughties, around 1500 people bought the ill fated AmigaOne. The community was significantly bigger then.
I would be very surprised if the Sam had sold that many.
Since few people use these machines as their only or even primary computer, capabilities and performance is secondary to other aspects, and price too is down to whether or not we can afford it, not so much whether or not it's cost effective.
The X1000 is competing against the Sam in terms of AmigaNG-OS4 and against old mac gear for MorphOS. If your kick is nostalgia then it's competing against UAE, Minimig and classic hardware. It is entering a relatively small market from the top end, which is itself limiting.
You may well be well off, but many/most people aren't, especially with the credit crunch in full swing. Your line of reasoning might well work for you but I just can't see it translating to anyone who isn't pretty well off. Cost comes high, but even if you could afford it you are still going to be asking some pretty hard questions about what the hardware is going to offer you against the alternatives I've listed. Capabilities and performance most definitely feature heavily into any equation that is as highly priced as the X1000 promises to be.
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Meanwhile, in the real world, the idea that actually anyone else outside the very small and tight amigaworld.net/amigans.net circle *would even consider* chipping up a staggering UKP 1,500++/USD 2,400++/EUR 1,700++ (ANYONE AT ALL!!) for this kind of unproven, 2007 level performance HW, that has no other benefit than being able to run a "gimmick" (to anyone else but the above mentioned tight circle) OS4, is nothing short of ridiculous. "Hmm, what to do, take my entire family on a nice vacation next summer, or buy this 2007 level computing technology so I can see what this gimmick thing called 'OS4' is about, at the same cost? Hmm, difficult choice..."
careful now....the OS4.x = gimmick to you might be bait that can start a red vs blue war yet again.....just sayin
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Meanwhile, in the real world, the idea that actually anyone else outside the very small and tight amigaworld.net/amigans.net circle *would even consider* chipping up a staggering UKP 1,500++/USD 2,400++/EUR 1,700++ (ANYONE AT ALL!!) for this kind of unproven, 2007 level performance HW, that has no other benefit than being able to run a "gimmick" (to anyone else but the above mentioned tight circle) OS4, is nothing short of ridiculous.
I don't imagine people outside the amiga community buying the X1000 either. Sadly, the real world exists outside this community all together. Spending money, any money, on amiga stuff - especially "next gen" is nothing short of ridiculous to people that aren't already fans. What, you think that absolutely anybody outside the amiga community, is going to go on ebay to buy an obsolete mac, no matter how cheap to procure, spend 100 euros kitting it out with an OS they've never heard of that, for all it's maturity in amiga circles, is eclipsed by completely free operating systems in any area they are likely to care about?
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And your evidence for this lies in what? Not to get off on a rant here, but Aeon are a completely untested and unknown quantity. You have the Sam which is a great deal more reasonable on the wallet and sales for it have pretty much dried up - practically everyone who wanted one has one.
And your evidence for this lies in what? :-P
We have to accept that we're all mostly in the dark and trying to make educated guesses here, which means we're unlikely to agree, and asking for evidence either way is meaningless...
With respect to the SAM, I'd argue that the coming 460 is a good indication that sales are going reasonably well, or they'd hardly invest in a new model, especially with the upcoming competition. But that too is a guess.
The X1000 is competing against the Sam in terms of AmigaNG-OS4 and against old mac gear for MorphOS. If your kick is nostalgia then it's competing against UAE, Minimig and classic hardware. It is entering a relatively small market from the top end, which is itself limiting.
The price is limiting, but it is also the first new computer to run AmigaOS that's powerful to entice people like me back to this community, even if it's slow when compared to x86 machines. I'm by far not the only one who have come back to Amiga forums as a result of wanting to buy the X1000. So while the market is limited, the X1000 is showing signs of at least attracting *some* people outside of the current market.
That, to me, indicates that while they're certainly not going to sell bundles, they might have hit a sweet spot in terms of maximizing revenue, which is far more important than maximizing number of units if A-Eon is going to become a viable business (even as Trevor Dickinson's "hobby")
You may well be well off, but many/most people aren't, especially with the credit crunch in full swing. Your line of reasoning might well work for you but I just can't see it translating to anyone who isn't pretty well off.
I'm not arguing that everyone will be able to afford it, because clearly there will be people that can't. I'm arguing that this community has enough people with cash to spare, and that the amounts of money being spent on old and slow hardware is a pretty good indication of the amounts of cash people can be prepared to spend on hobbies like these, with no concern for the actual performance or "utility" of the system. People have far more expensive hobbies with far less utility.
In previous threads I've pointed out that from a financial point of view for AEon, the high price point is also not a bad thing per se in a market like this when they're the only alternative for someone wanting a "high end" Amiga.
There's substantial price flexibility in niche markets that you don't find in more competitive markets. Sales will be smaller at, say, 1500GBP than at 1000GBP or 500GBP, for sure, but probably not enough to make up for the difference in percentage margin they'd be able to "hide" in the higher price, so I'd argue they're better off aiming for the high end, both because there's at least some signs they're attracting people that wouldn't otherwise consider an AmigaOS machine, and because they might be able to survive on far lower total sales (in pounds/euros, not just units) and that the price elasticity in this market is so big that sales are not likely to fall off in proportion to the price increasing.
Of course, this is guesswork, but it is guesswork that has some basis in how niche markets actually work: They *do* generally have far higher price elasticity; they *do* tend to see a lot less focus on hard numbers and price/performance compared to other factors (people who care mostly about price/performance generally go for the mainstream products instead)
Cost comes high, but even if you could afford it you are still going to be asking some pretty hard questions about what the hardware is going to offer you against the alternatives I've listed.
No, I'm not. It's the first computer to run AmigaOS4 that's feels like it'll be "fast enough" for me to give it serious use. It's passing a threshold. That's enough.
The XMOS chip and the recent hint that it might be possible for them to get Linux running in parallel with AOS4 on the second core are interesting bonuses that rise the geek appeal, but not necessary. The rest doesn't really factor in. Call it a midlife crisis if you want - I want the X1000 instead of the Ferrari.
We can argue (based on guesses on both sides, since neither of us have any actual data) about the number of people who'll think about the X1000 like me, but that this market segment exists is clear (I'm proof, for starters, though I'm afraid my pockets aren't deep enough to carry the X1000 on my own :-P )
Capabilities and performance most definitely feature heavily into any equation that is as highly priced as the X1000 promises to be.
You're looking at this from a utility point of view, but utility does not govern this type of niche market.
If I cared about capabilities and performance, I could get an Intel Core i7 Quad core 3.2GHz based machine with 12GB memory and a GeForce GTX480 with 1.5GB memory and a 2TB harddrive for the same price, that would wipe the floor with the X1000. Or I could wipe the floor with it with a cheaper machine and have enough money left over for a weekend in a good hotel.
But I have my other computers for the performance. The X1000 and other Amiga-related kit I plan to buy is for fun. I value fun far higher than performance I don't need.
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And your evidence for this lies in what? :-P
The fact that when previous models of the Sam ceased production amiga resellers still had stocks of the things for months afterwards. Consider that these are limited production run machines.
I'm not arguing that everyone will be able to afford it, because clearly there will be people that can't. I'm arguing that this community has enough people with cash to spare
In pure numbers maybe (though if I'm honest I really doubt even that). But that market is heavily segmented. You're not taking into account that a significant chunk of your "potential market" doesn't give a rats ass about OS4.
Look at the OS4 centric forums on AW.net and Amigans. These people constitute the hardcore of OS4 support and yet collectively they shat a brick when they got wind of the price.
, and that the amounts of money being spent on old and slow hardware is a pretty good indication
No, it really isn't and you're completely missing the point. Yes, there is some overlap between those who want the classic kit and those who are into the NG gear. But not all. For many people they are buying that old hardware is buying back a bit of their childhood or buying addons for pre-existing classic kit.
OS4 and it's associated hardware might as well be an entirely different platform.
so I'd argue they're better off aiming for the high end, both because there's at least some signs they're attracting people that wouldn't otherwise consider an AmigaOS machine, and because they might be able to survive on far lower total sales (in pounds/euros, not just units) and that the price elasticity in this market is so big that sales are not likely to fall off in proportion to the price increasing.
If the X1000 ever breaks even, by which I mean pays for its own development costs. I'll be very surprised.
Of course, this is guesswork, but it is guesswork that has some basis in how niche markets actually work: They *do* generally have far higher price elasticity; they *do* tend to see a lot less focus on hard numbers and price/performance compared to other factors (people who care mostly about price/performance generally go for the mainstream products instead)
Yeah except the other retro markets I see operate on a much more realistic models, sure rare original stuff sells at a premium, but "new" hardware is sold at reasonable prices. All you do when you produce a ridiculously expensive piece of kit is limit your market, in a market as small and fractious as it is for OS4, beyond a handful like you, the rest of the market leaves you for dead. See the reaction on AW.net and Amigans for details.
No, I'm not. It's the first computer to run AmigaOS4 that's feels like it'll be "fast enough" for me to give it serious use. It's passing a threshold. That's enough.
You may not, but it would be a mistake to presume others think like you. You want it, great.
The XMOS chip
*facepalm*
and the recent hint that it might be possible for them to get Linux running in parallel with AOS4 on the second core are interesting bonuses that rise the geek appeal, but not necessary.
Yeah the key word in that is "hint".
Here's a clue since you seem to be new here: Hyperion lie.
The rest doesn't really factor in. Call it a midlife crisis if you want - I want the X1000 instead of the Ferrari.
Not all of us are suffering from a midlife crisis, some of us don't have the time to do so.
We can argue (based on guesses on both sides, since neither of us have any actual data) about the number of people who'll think about the X1000 like me, but that this market segment exists is clear
If it sells more than 150 units total (assuming it ever ships at all), I'll be genuinely shocked.
And before you jump on this: Consider that Aeon are struggling to even get to the stage where beta boards are being made.
You're looking at this from a utility point of view, but utility does not govern this type of niche market.
For you. For many others they took one look at the price, one look at what it offered, compared it against the alternatives and said no. It isn't just "utility", it's that there are other, cheaper competitive options in this marketplace that are significantly better value for money.
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As stated at AmiWest 2010, they still have no interest in x86.
I suppose selling a handful outdated slow overpriced computers somehow makes them more money than selling good software that runs on fast commodity hardware.
Greed > user experience.
Unbelievable.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z196_CPU
IBM has CISC z/Architecture CPU with a new superscalar, out-of-order pipeline with 5.2Ghz speeds. Like any modern X86, this IBM Z-Arch CISC CPU includes CISC-to-RISC hybrid design.
Z196 was announced on July 22, 2010.
It looks like IBM is going to fight Intel/AMD X86-64 with it's own 1970s 64bit CISC ISA CPU.
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So IBM can actually design what they say they will as opposed to intel who lets marketing department run design?
I think the same of Motorola, they were pretty unreliable.
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The day Amiga goes x86 is the day I retire from the scene.
Hi,
We really hate to lose you, but seeing that you already made up your mind.
I believe that the only way for the Amiga to survive is to go to the dark side (intel) or what I believe would be better, the new AMD 6 core running Cloanto's package. I run it every day on my Quad core, and believe me is it nice. Once we get people used to the idea of using PC style equipment the better off we will be. PPC I don't think will make it unless the big blue machine (IBM) adapts to it and gets it selling.
Quit thinking old, and start thinking new, if you want the Amiga to survive, look at MAC they went to the dark side, look at Piru, he went with MAC. You know I should leave Piru alone, he is one of the great ones on Amiga Org. but then again, I had to get him ;-)
smerf
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So IBM can actually design what they say they will as opposed to intel who lets marketing department run design?
I think the same of Motorola, they were pretty unreliable.
My point, the RISC migration adventure was a waste of time. IBM has created a 21st Century upgrade for thier 1970s Z-Arch CISC CPU.
As for Intel marketing...
Pentium IV's path was not compatible with laptop PC vs desktop PC thrends
(http://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Picture12.png)
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?? Pentium IV's ALU runs twice the marketed clock speed btw.
My point, the RISC adventure was a waste of time.
these things weren't as clear as they are in hindsight.
And well, there's a crapton of power PC processors being sold for the gaming consoles. I'd imagine more than enough to keep someone employed.
The desktop computer market isn't everything.
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these things weren't as clear as they are in hindsight.
And well, there's a crapton of power PC processors being sold for the gaming consoles. I'd imagine more than enough to keep someone employed.
The desktop computer market isn't everything.
Erm, IBM Z CPU is in the HPC market....
HPC market would have IBM Z (64bit CISC**) vs IBM Power(64bit RISC) vs AMD X64(64bit CISC**) vs Intel X64 (64bit CISC**). Looks like Intel Itanium (VLIW/EPIC) is dead.
**Hybrid CISC-to-RISC designs. Keep the old software and run it faster concept.
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The fact that when previous models of the Sam ceased production amiga resellers still had stocks of the things for months afterwards. Consider that these are limited production run machines.
In pure numbers maybe (though if I'm honest I really doubt even that). But that market is heavily segmented. You're not taking into account that a significant chunk of your "potential market" doesn't give a rats ass about OS4.
Look at the OS4 centric forums on AW.net and Amigans. These people constitute the hardcore of OS4 support and yet collectively they shat a brick when they got wind of the price.
No, it really isn't and you're completely missing the point. Yes, there is some overlap between those who want the classic kit and those who are into the NG gear. But not all. For many people they are buying that old hardware is buying back a bit of their childhood or buying addons for pre-existing classic kit.
OS4 and it's associated hardware might as well be an entirely different platform.
If the X1000 ever breaks even, by which I mean pays for its own development costs. I'll be very surprised.
Yeah except the other retro markets I see operate on a much more realistic models, sure rare original stuff sells at a premium, but "new" hardware is sold at reasonable prices. All you do when you produce a ridiculously expensive piece of kit is limit your market, in a market as small and fractious as it is for OS4, beyond a handful like you, the rest of the market leaves you for dead. See the reaction on AW.net and Amigans for details.
You may not, but it would be a mistake to presume others think like you. You want it, great.
*facepalm*
Yeah the key word in that is "hint".
Here's a clue since you seem to be new here: Hyperion lie.
Not all of us are suffering from a midlife crisis, some of us don't have the time to do so.
If it sells more than 150 units total (assuming it ever ships at all), I'll be genuinely shocked.
And before you jump on this: Consider that Aeon are struggling to even get to the stage where beta boards are being made.
For you. For many others they took one look at the price, one look at what it offered, compared it against the alternatives and said no. It isn't just "utility", it's that there are other, cheaper competitive options in this marketplace that are significantly better value for money.
Look, not everyone thinks like you. I like the X1000 because it's different from a hardware standpoint. You can't tell me I'm wrong, and just because you want a cheap and fast machine to run OS4 doesn't make other X1000 fans wrong either.
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Not to speak for the Leander, but... those of us who criticize the X1000 are not criticizing your choice. We're criticizing AEon/Hyperions choice to not grow the user base.
Two cents.
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Not to speak for the Leander, but... those of us who criticize the X1000 are not criticizing your choice. We're criticizing AEon/Hyperions choice to not grow the user base.
Two cents.
What would you recommend they do to increase the user base?
As far as I can see both the low end (Sam 460) and high end (X1000) are covered. Criticism over the price is noted, but the price level is mostly out of Aeon's control. If you don't want to pay that much, buy a Sam. Criticism of the price as the only factor is equivalent to an old school Amigan wondering why they can't buy an A4000 for the price of an A600.
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What would you recommend they do to increase the user base?
As far as I can see both the low end (Sam 460) and high end (X1000) are covered. Criticism over the price is noted, but the price level is mostly out of Aeon's control. If you don't want to pay that much, buy a Sam. Criticism of the price as the only factor is equivalent to an old school Amigan wondering why they can't buy an A4000 for the price of an A600.
No, it would rather be: why does the A600 costs the price of a 386, the 386 being the equivalent of the A4000 ?
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From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z196_CPU
IBM has CISC z/Architecture CPU with a new superscalar, out-of-order pipeline with 5.2Ghz speeds. Like any modern X86, this IBM Z-Arch CISC CPU includes CISC-to-RISC hybrid design.
Z196 was announced on July 22, 2010.
Interesting, the previous Z11 was a pure CISC chip, this is just mostly CISC.
It can only be a matter of time before it gets merged with POWER though.
It looks like IBM is going to fight Intel/AMD X86-64 with it's own 1970s 64bit CISC ISA CPU.
No, the Z series is for mainframes only. It's exotic and highly expensive hardware and they make vast sums of money from it.
My point, the RISC migration adventure was a waste of time.
But you're saying the opposite - everyone has gone RISC internally.
Anyway, in the embedded market RISC is king and it's much, much bigger than desktop.
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@ HenryCase
If you want to grow the user-base, then you have to bring the price down to a level a majority of (potential) users are willing to pay. Just because the Sam is the lower end of the price range does not mean it's the price that a majority will pay for. Bring cost of ownership down to about 300$ and I'm in -- but I suspect I'm on the lowest end. This will grow the user-base considerably. A price range of 800$ to 2000$ will not do it.
While the price level of the X1000 might be out of AEon's control, choice of hardware is not. I'm in the x86 camp and computers can be found that would bring the price down below 800$. I've also argued that "if it must be PPC, then xBox, Wii or PS3." The choice of this hardware + OS would also bring the cost down to a more reasonable range and have a better chance of growing the base.
Cold hard fact: the Amiga, despite it's superiority way back when, is a _failed_ computer. Trying to reintroduce such a machine at "caviar" prices when it has "little nutritional value" is just foolish. If you've failed in your career and are restarting it, you don't begin it again by selling yourself at the highest wage possible.
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Look, not everyone thinks like you.
Indeed. :D
You can't tell me I'm wrong
Actually I can, as much as you have a right to your opinion, I have a right to mine. The fact is however, as EDanaII rightly stated, I was criticising AEON/Hyperion, not you.
, and just because you want a cheap and fast machine to run OS4 doesn't make other X1000 fans wrong either.
Must... Not... Bite...
As far as your question for expanding the userbase goes... Dumping AmigaNG and concentrating on the classics - cashing in on the retro crowd and neatly bypassing almost all of the bad blood within the community.
Anyway EDanaII and warpdesign pretty much have it covered as far as anything else goes on this
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No, it would rather be: why does the A600 costs the price of a 386, the 386 being the equivalent of the A4000 ?
If amigas had been too cheap, they'd have been too awesome, and the Bruce Willis would have had to step in.
Just saying.
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What would you recommend they do to increase the user base?
I would recommend doing what the MorphOS developers did - that is, release OS4 for old powerpc macs.
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@ HenryCase
If you want to grow the user-base, then you have to bring the price down to a level a majority of (potential) users are willing to pay. Just because the Sam is the lower end of the price range does not mean it's the price that a majority will pay for. Bring cost of ownership down to about 300$ and I'm in -- but I suspect I'm on the lowest end. This will grow the user-base considerably. A price range of 800$ to 2000$ will not do it.
While the price level of the X1000 might be out of AEon's control, choice of hardware is not. I'm in the x86 camp and computers can be found that would bring the price down below 800$. I've also argued that "if it must be PPC, then xBox, Wii or PS3." The choice of this hardware + OS would also bring the cost down to a more reasonable range and have a better chance of growing the base.
Cold hard fact: the Amiga, despite it's superiority way back when, is a _failed_ computer. Trying to reintroduce such a machine at "caviar" prices when it has "little nutritional value" is just foolish. If you've failed in your career and are restarting it, you don't begin it again by selling yourself at the highest wage possible.
People keep forgetting that this is an enthusiast's market.
I am a Fiero enthusiast. It is widely considered a failed car yes also did many things that were ahead of it's time in the automobile world. I continue to update and improve upon it at a premium price. I also value the car higher than my corvette that is 10+years newer...and enjoy driving it more than my corvette.
This is the Amiga market. If you want an econo-box/mobile look elsewhere.
:)
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At the end of the day I dont think it matters much. It seem fairly obvious that Hyperion dont want to compete but rather support thier small faction of supporters. It's a shame that theyve essentially given our once beloved Amiga OS a death sentence (as much as some people would like to think otherwise there's no real attraction in something that's essentially industry standard hardware with a comparitively weak cpu with a huge pricetag unless the brand name is important to you for the vast majority of people), but at least there's other choices now as well.
If Hyperion are happy to target the same audience willing to tollerate such decisions then good luck to them (although I am curious just how long the same group of people will keep buying new hardware for OS4(a look at sigs on forum sites show the numbers of OS4.x machines sold is significantly more than the amount of actual users)).
I say this with a slightly heavy heart and as a fan of all the "amiga" options. The sheer volume of threads over the years, and the large amount of responses to these threads shows what a large chunk of the potential market wants, but unlike most businesses they seem content to ignore the majority and continue with a route that appears to have little chance of increasing numbers of users.
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People keep forgetting that this is an enthusiast's market.
Too bad for OS4 that there arent enough enthusiasts around then.
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I think the problem is that there is too much choice.
Between 3.x, 4.x, Morphos and Aros, the market and developer base is 1/4 the size that it should be.
The sooner any one of them takes over, the better.
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Interesting, the previous Z11 was a pure CISC chip, this is just mostly CISC.
It can only be a matter of time before it gets merged with POWER though.
.
Your speculation.
No, the Z series is for mainframes only. It's exotic and highly expensive hardware and they make vast sums of money from it.
.
The context was HPC. Like Power, Z also uses large package MCM format.
But you're saying the opposite - everyone has gone RISC internally.
.
Not externally hence my CISC-to-RISC hybrid context.
Anyway, in the embedded market RISC is king and it's much, much bigger than desktop.
Mostly dominated by ARM not PowerPC. Prove PowerPC has superior numbers over X86 in annual unit sales.
Before ARM, the "most popular RISC chips on the (embedded) market" was AMD 29K. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Am29000
The embedded market doesn’t worry about legacy software investments.
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@ HenryCase
If you want to grow the user-base, then you have to bring the price down to a level a majority of (potential) users are willing to pay. Just because the Sam is the lower end of the price range does not mean it's the price that a majority will pay for. Bring cost of ownership down to about 300$ and I'm in -- but I suspect I'm on the lowest end. This will grow the user-base considerably. A price range of 800$ to 2000$ will not do it.
How do you propose they bring down the price down to $300 for a new machine? This isn't a console market where the hardware can be sold at a loss, and mass market hardware is cheap because it's produced in bulk. I'm sure you know this already, which is why I'm surprised that the 'make it cheaper' is constantly brought up as a solution, it's obvious why the price is high.
If you have a solution, then I'm sure they'll be all ears. x86 isn't an option because OS4 hasn't been ported to x86 (and if they do make an x86 port, expect them to pass on the cost to the Amiga user, who won't be able to afford it and then it's goodnight Vienna), and old Mac hardware will only get you so far (haven't seen a massive increase in the MorphOS user base yet).
Must... Not... Bite...
So you have got some self control. Keep it up.
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As an aside, hands up everybody here that would actually buy an x86 version of AmigaOS considering AROS is already on x86 and is completely free?
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So you have got some self control. Keep it up.
Unnecessary.
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As an aside, hands up everybody here that would actually buy an x86 version of AmigaOS considering AROS is already on x86 and is completely free?
10 years ago maybe. Today, with or without AROS... No, not if it were produced by Hyperion.
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As an aside, hands up everybody here that would actually buy an x86 version of AmigaOS considering AROS is already on x86 and is completely free?
You can lose "an x86 version of", and still ask :-/
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You can lose "an x86 version of", and still ask :-/
I dunno, does AROS PPC run legacy 68K (and some legacy PPC) executables?
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I dunno, does AROS PPC run legacy 68K (and some legacy PPC) executables?
Not without EUAE. In fact they are trying to fix a serious bug that prevents Sam440 series computers from running Efika software and the other way around as well. You can run EUAE on either of them but it won't run any faster than the OS 4 or MorphOS versions of EUAE.
At least EUAE and JUAE support x86 JIT though.
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How do you propose they bring down the price down to $300 for a new machine? This isn't a console market where the hardware can be sold at a loss, and mass market hardware is cheap because it's produced in bulk. I'm sure you know this already, which is why I'm surprised that the 'make it cheaper' is constantly brought up as a solution, it's obvious why the price is high.
Make a smart design. Step #1 is chose cpu and features with care. There's plenty ppc to chose from. Freescale has some interesting offers. They will not compete with x86 or ARM at every performance level, but there are chips with reasonable price/performance ratio for small computers that would get used as a general computing device.
Some QorIQs, 86xx, some 85xx. Plus, I highly doubt that an Applied Micro 460 based design needs to be that expensive as Acubes design actually is. The chip itself at least doesn't cost several 100 $$$...
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@ Lou Dias
Ironically, you are addressing (possibly) the only other Amiga/Fiero enthusiast here, Lou. :) I'm the proud and original owner of a 1988 4cyl standard Fiero. I listed those stats because, as fond as I am of the Fiero, I was unwilling to pay for anything better than that. The more expensive models didn't get me down the road any better than my humble model and the gas mileage was by far better.
And the more expensive X1000 isn't going to compute any better for me than this 500$ Lenovo SL510 I'm currently typing on. So, as fond as I am of Amiga -- my presence here should indicate that -- I'm unwilling to pay 2k for something that I can only, at present, do less on. And I doubt I'm the only one here. 2k for the _illusion_ of better is still an illusion. ("Look mom! The emperor isn't wearing any clothes!")
These rules still apply to an enthusiast market and the Amiga market as they always have.
@ HenryCase:
How do you propose they bring down the price down to $300 for a new machine? This isn't a console market where the hardware can be sold at a loss, and mass market hardware is cheap because it's produced in bulk. I'm sure you know this already, which is why I'm surprised that the 'make it cheaper' is constantly brought up as a solution, it's obvious why the price is high.
First off, I stated that 300$ was my price and that I was probably in the lowest echelon. So, let's compromise and bring the price up a little higher. How about 400$? That's a reasonable price, on par with what's available, reflecting the Amiga's reputations as a failed platform. So, with that as our baseline, it's not that hard to fill. Steve at ClusterUK managed it. Yes, I know AROS is free, but at least Steve is funneling funds back to AROS development.
And then, there's models like this:
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=bv1cs3ao&cs=04&dgvcode=ss&c=US&l=EN&dgc=SS&cid=52103&lid=1342491
Or this:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Compaq+-+Presario+Desktop+/+AMD+Athlon%26%23153%3B+II+Processor+/+2GB+Memory+/+500GB+Hard+Drive/1254175.p?skuId=1254175&ky=1whxm51gbOgORrn6M8JOUlLjDtR0yY7Rx&cmp=RMX&id=1218243229976
Or even this:
http://netbookprice.net/price-comparison/acer-aspire-one-532h-2588/
Add 150$ to those models and you still have a pretty reasonably priced (and performing) system. All Hyperion has to do is pick one and support it.
If you have a solution, then I'm sure they'll be all ears. x86 isn't an option because OS4 hasn't been ported to x86 (and if they do make an x86 port, expect them to pass on the cost to the Amiga user, who won't be able to afford it and then it's goodnight Vienna), and old Mac hardware will only get you so far (haven't seen a massive increase in the MorphOS user base yet).
But that's where you're wrong. x86 *IS* an option, it's just not the best option given the hole that Hyperion has dug themselves into. Still, getting out of that hole and digging a better one (more likely to find water) is better than just digging the current dry hole deeper.
But, as Kolla has already stated: "I would recommend doing what the MorphOS developers did - that is, release OS4 for old powerpc macs." To which I'll add, I just invested in a used PowerMac (150$), when I invest in MorphOS (150$) then the cost of ownership will be: 300$. Which is more than Hyperion is going to get from me. 2 grand is a whole month's worth of living; I ain't giving it up that easily. :)
And, as I've already pointed out: "if it must be PPC, then xBox, Wii or PS3." Lessee... Wii is 200$, so we're talking minimum price of ownership: 350$ and, I dunno... through in a keyboard and mouse for an additional 20?
The options are there even if people don't want to hear them.
@ Karlos
[Raises hand.]
AROS might be free and it has come a long way, but it still needs a lot of polishing. The kind of polishing that would have likely happened if it were a professionally supported OS.
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@ Karlos
[Raises hand.]
AROS might be free and it has come a long way, but it still needs a lot of polishing. The kind of polishing that would have likely happened if it were a professionally supported OS.
Is this on the presumption that this theoretical AmigaOS4.x x86 would have all the features it does now, but runs on x86?
I would suggest that this wouldn't be the case. You'd likely get a version which would have no more support for 68K apps than AROS does now (via UAE) and may not support PPC apps (including some written for 4.x PPC if not still actively developed) at all.
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@ Lou Dias
But, as Kolla has already stated: "I would recommend doing what the MorphOS developers did - that is, release OS4 for old powerpc macs." To which I'll add, I just invested in a used PowerMac (150$), when I invest in MorphOS (150$) then the cost of ownership will be: 300$. Which is more than Hyperion is going to get from me.
You will probably like it. Just had fun tonight with my Efika and th enew OWB release (V1.11).
And, as I've already pointed out: "if it must be PPC, then xBox, Wii or PS3." Lessee... Wii is 200$, so we're talking minimum price of ownership: 350$ and, I dunno... through in a keyboard and mouse for an additional 20?
The Wii just has too little RAM (IIRC 88 MB), Sony just closed their console. The only remotely viable current console would be the XBox 360 - oh the irony, it must be an MS product...
Anyway, that wouldn't stop me. But so far nobody works on a XBox 360 port. And my biggets wish is still the laptop (I am hoping for the MorphOS Powerbook effort).
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Concerning the Wii, a fair point, but I still consider it viable. I'm making the assumption it could be hacked. Same is true for the PS3 as I recall some have already hacked Sony's closed door back open. And, of course, I could care less about the "irony" of the Xbox. :)
Regarding MorphOS, I already like it. I'm using the crippled (non-registered) version. I haven't sprung for the official version yet because I've had the PowerMac for only three weeks and have used it (the Mac) for, maybe, 90 minutes. Still playing... but it is nice and responsive. The only obstacle here is software... but if MorphOS can move enough PowerMacs over to them, software will come. The only question is: how many PowerMacs do they need to move?
@ Karlos
Nope. It's never been on that presumption. However, I've been advocating Amiga on x86 since the Amithlon days. And Amithlon managed to run a large portion of m68k applications (that didn't bang the hardware) without too much issue. So claiming this as an obstacle (including the big/little endian argument) is a little dubious IMHO. As to the PPC legacy stuff? So, if the boat is leaky and threatening to sink, we should stick with it because a couple of guys over there still like it? I hate to be harsh but... maybe we should just find a better boat?
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@ HenryCase:
First off, I stated that 300$ was my price and that I was probably in the lowest echelon. So, let's compromise and bring the price up a little higher. How about 400$? That's a reasonable price, on par with what's available, reflecting the Amiga's reputations as a failed platform. So, with that as our baseline, it's not that hard to fill. Steve at ClusterUK managed it. Yes, I know AROS is free, but at least Steve is funneling funds back to AROS development.
And then, there's models like this:
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=bv1cs3ao&cs=04&dgvcode=ss&c=US&l=EN&dgc=SS&cid=52103&lid=1342491
Or this:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Compaq+-+Presario+Desktop+/+AMD+Athlon%26%23153%3B+II+Processor+/+2GB+Memory+/+500GB+Hard+Drive/1254175.p?skuId=1254175&ky=1whxm51gbOgORrn6M8JOUlLjDtR0yY7Rx&cmp=RMX&id=1218243229976
Or even this:
http://netbookprice.net/price-comparison/acer-aspire-one-532h-2588/
Add 150$ to those models and you still have a pretty reasonably priced (and performing) system. All Hyperion has to do is pick one and support it.
There's a small matter of porting OS4 to x86 before they could support any of those systems you outlined. How long did it take to get from 68k to PPC? Also, consider when that move was made that the market for Amiga was bigger than it is now, potential ROI is even smaller than at the time of the original AInc/Hyperion/Eyetech partnership.
But that's where you're wrong. x86 *IS* an option, it's just not the best option given the hole that Hyperion has dug themselves into. Still, getting out of that hole and digging a better one (more likely to find water) is better than just digging the current dry hole deeper.
What do you propose would cover the cost of moving OS4 to x86? Perhaps a bounty could be set up where we pay the Frieden brothers a living wage for the next few years that it takes to port it. Oh wait, the cost would be astronomical... yet, that's what it would take. OS4 wouldn't be generating much income in the time it took to move to x86, plus you wouldn't be looking at new features, just moving to a cheaper platform. Let's say they both earn $40,000 a year (which is conservative), so x2 for the both of them, $80,000 a year, and let's say it takes 3 years so $80,000 x 3 = $240,000. Now can you seriously imagine the Amiga community generating a bounty of that size when the largest ever Amiga bounty was less than $12,000 (Amizilla)?
Or perhaps, some wealthy outside investor wanted to make it happen. So using the estimate of $240,000, how many new AmigaOS4 owners would it take before the investor saw some financial return? Let's just say that they sold each copy for $100, that's 2400 copies of an OS assuming the cost of distribution was 0 and all the money went to the investor. Sounds reasonable enough, but wait... there's no software for this new OS because all the old OS4 software was written for PPC. Plus, three years have passed and AROS is looking better than ever, is free and open, and supports more hardware.
But, as Kolla has already stated: "I would recommend doing what the MorphOS developers did - that is, release OS4 for old powerpc macs." To which I'll add, I just invested in a used PowerMac (150$), when I invest in MorphOS (150$) then the cost of ownership will be: 300$. Which is more than Hyperion is going to get from me. 2 grand is a whole month's worth of living; I ain't giving it up that easily. :)
And, as I've already pointed out: "if it must be PPC, then xBox, Wii or PS3." Lessee... Wii is 200$, so we're talking minimum price of ownership: 350$ and, I dunno... through in a keyboard and mouse for an additional 20?
The options are there even if people don't want to hear them.
Moana had potential, it is a shame it wasn't pursued, but even if it was completed you'd still have some Amigans complaining that it was the end of the road. As for consoles, they're closed systems, yes you can hack them but I wouldn't base a commercial OS around exploits that can be closed at any time.
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Moana had potential, it is a shame it wasn't pursued, but even if it was completed you'd still have some Amigans complaining that it was the end of the road.
Which is exactly what you have today, with the difference being the number of users and copies of OS4 sold.
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@ Lou Dias
Ironically, you are addressing (possibly) the only other Amiga/Fiero enthusiast here, Lou. :) I'm the proud and original owner of a 1988 4cyl standard Fiero. I listed those stats because, as fond as I am of the Fiero, I was unwilling to pay for anything better than that. The more expensive models didn't get me down the road any better than my humble model and the gas mileage was by far better.
holy poop! Is the world ending?
I got a G6-6speed in one and a 4.9 caddy v8 with a 5 speed in another...
uh OT
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I won't tell if you don't, Lou. ;)
You know, I've often played with the idea of getting a v8 Archie for my humble little machine, but... (steering back on topic) ...the price is too much for me despite the 0 to 60 in 4 seconds thrill it would give me. :)
(Oh, and I've actually mentioned the Fiero to you before, you just never noticed it. I recognize your sign on from Pennock's as well.
@ HenryCase
I'm not proposing anything, Henry. I'm merely laying out the case for Hyperion's survival. Build the X1000, stagnate and likely die. Switch to commodity hardware, grow the user base and have a chance at survival. I fully realize this is a "Kobiyashi Maru" scenario for Hyperion, but of the two scenarios: expensive or cheap only one of them gives the greater chance for survival.
And, yes, I realize that my scenarios are less than perfect but, once again, they still have a greater chance of growing the user base. This should be Hyperion's main priority.
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If the Pandora game system can sell for $350 in such modest quantities, then it has to be possible to create a low-end PPC Amiga for that price, even if it's just a motherboard and CPU.
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If the Pandora game system can sell for $350 in such modest quantities, then it has to be possible to create a low-end PPC Amiga for that price, even if it's just a motherboard and CPU.
Arms are cheap, PPC are expensive.
Look at the price of just the SAM motherboard, no extras.
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Ironically, you are addressing (possibly) the only other Amiga/Fiero enthusiast here, Lou.
I had two Fieros, an '86 4cyl and an '86 GT. They were both crap. Had way more fun with the pair of '87 MR2s.
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Is this on the presumption that this theoretical AmigaOS4.x x86 would have all the features it does now, but runs on x86?
I would suggest that this wouldn't be the case. You'd likely get a version which would have no more support for 68K apps than AROS does now (via UAE) and may not support PPC apps (including some written for 4.x PPC if not still actively developed) at all.
In theory, AROS can be modified for Amithlon's GCC "Big endian" X86 mode.
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I dunno, does AROS PPC run legacy 68K (and some legacy PPC) executables?
I don't recall AROS PPC having AOS4's style 68K emulator....
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As an aside, hands up everybody here that would actually buy an x86 version of AmigaOS considering AROS is already on x86 and is completely free?
Depends if X86 version has the entire "OS4.1".
Anyway, AROS has emumiga. http://emumiga.com/about/
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Anyway, AROS has emumiga. http://emumiga.com/about/
Well, I guess that's useful if you want to run the Clock application. Without alarm.
I fear the author is getting lost in his C++ quest (4 months now). I hope I'm wrong though.
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Arms are cheap, PPC are expensive.
Look at the price of just the SAM motherboard, no extras.
Looking at the Sam board prices just shows that Acube are charging massively. Why that actually is, may be debatable. But it isn't because the ppcs are so damn pretty expensive.
Unfortnately it is not that easy to obtain price quotes for the 460 (last price I found was about 100 US$ in small quantities, but it wasn't precisely the model Acube is using. Probaly that price is a good guess anyway). And if the 460 was that expensive then the big qestion is: why on earth use that chip when there are enough other ppc chips available?
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Well, I guess that's useful if you want to run the Clock application. Without alarm.
I fear the author is getting lost in his C++ quest (4 months now). I hope I'm wrong though.
What's wrong with C++?
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What's wrong with C++?
He should have used Obj-C... ;)
No seriously, I'm joking! I think the task of moving thebold procedural code to C++ is quite a large one, but should pay off with better code efficiency :)
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What's wrong with C++?
Not the C++ itself (althought I don't like it myself, it sure has some benefits in some case), but I fear the author might be losing focus. Just an example: I know several guys who keep working on the same project, reshaping it to whatever new ideas they have and/or technologies arising. The problem being that the actual project itself doesn't advance.
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Not the C++ itself (althought I don't like it myself, it sure has some benefits in some case), but I fear the author might be losing focus. Just an example: I know several guys who keep working on the same project, reshaping it to whatever new ideas they have and/or technologies arising. The problem being that the actual project itself doesn't advance.
I see, lack of design plus feature creep.
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He should have used Obj-C... ;)
No seriously, I'm joking! I think the task of moving thebold procedural code to C++ is quite a large one, but should pay off with better code efficiency :)
Whatever happened to Anubis and it's Obj-C nonsense? Early miscarriage?
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@Piru
One could almost suspect that Natami was a project written in C++ then :)
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Looking at the Sam board prices just shows that Acube are charging massively. Why that actually is, may be debatable. But it isn't because the ppcs are so damn pretty expensive.
Unfortnately it is not that easy to obtain price quotes for the 460 (last price I found was about 100 US$ in small quantities, but it wasn't precisely the model Acube is using. Probaly that price is a good guess anyway). And if the 460 was that expensive then the big qestion is: why on earth use that chip when there are enough other ppc chips available?
Avnet has 1GHz 460ex chips for just over US$100. Slower versions go as low as about $75.
Go to http://www.avnet.com and search for 460ex, click on processors category in results.
If 460ex is expensive, then the only alternatives are lower performance than that. Many of us want to go in the positive direction, not backwards. Yes, even if that's more expensive.
It's all a bunch of tradeoffs. Someone has enforced a restriction to PowerPC. Like it or not, it's there for OS4. Don't like it, don't use OS4. If you want OS4, and some of us do, how do we best live within that restriction? Trying to keep price as low as is practical for a business and keeping performance where users want it can be tricky in a nanoscopic market like this. It's not just the parts that create cost, don't forget the NRE. The smaller your market, the fewer to spread that cost to, and the higher each customer pays toward it. Sucks to be us... But put out a high performance PPC laptop for OS4, and I'll find a way to pay for one. If I were designing it, my own personal priorities place performance and modern features as more important than low price.
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Whatever happened to Anubis and it's Obj-C nonsense? Early miscarriage?
IIRC the same problem AROS had when first started (before Aaron just said that he was going to clone 3.1 full stop), too many people with different ideas as to what it should be :(
I think AROS 68k is much more fun an idea now :)
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@Piru
One could almost suspect that Natami was a project written in C++ then :)
SystemC hardware language is based on C++, so that is actually possible.
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Looking at the Sam board prices just shows that Acube are charging massively. Why that actually is, may be debatable. But it isn't because the ppcs are so damn pretty expensive.
Unfortnately it is not that easy to obtain price quotes for the 460 (last price I found was about 100 US$ in small quantities, but it wasn't precisely the model Acube is using. Probaly that price is a good guess anyway). And if the 460 was that expensive then the big qestion is: why on earth use that chip when there are enough other ppc chips available?
Part of it, as far as I understand, is a lot of the work is apparently done in Italy rather than China.
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And if the 460 was that expensive then the big qestion is: why on earth use that chip when there are enough other ppc chips available?
Probably whoever Acube's real customer base is had a requirement where the 460 was the best fit.
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Part of it, as far as I understand, is a lot of the work is apparently done in Italy rather than China.
Pegasos 1 & 2 and Efika 5200b were produced in Germany. Hence I think this China argument is rather void. And if Italy was that expensive I guess Bruxelles should really kick some arses in Roma. And why is a Fiat or Alfa then not x times more expensive than a Volkswagen or Mercedes... Poducing in Italy is not that expensive if done right.
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Avnet has 1GHz 460ex chips for just over US$100. Slower versions go as low as about $75.
Go to http://www.avnet.com and search for 460ex, click on processors category in results.
If 460ex is expensive, then the only alternatives are lower performance than that. Many of us want to go in the positive direction, not backwards. Yes, even if that's more expensive.
Last time I checked a big supplier for the 460 I found only few prices. But they were similar to them Avnet lists now (about a 100$ for a 460ex). Hence it is exactly as I wrote. The 450 is not the massively driving cost factor. It is 100$ - not cheap, but also no reason to charge several hunderets for the board.
The price/performance ratio of the Sam just isn't convincing - and it *could* be done different.
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Pegasos 1 & 2 and Efika 5200b were produced in Germany. Hence I think this China argument is rather void. And if Italy was that expensive I guess Bruxelles should really kick some arses in Roma. And why is a Fiat or Alfa then not x times more expensive than a Volkswagen or Mercedes... Poducing in Italy is not that expensive if done right.
Zylesea has a point. Chinese manufacturing could help lower the cost of a mass produced motherboard. The affect on a low volume board wouldn't be as significant.
But I'd be surprisped if Acube's suggested retail wasn't about twice the manufactering cost.
Small manufacturers used to dealing with the embedded/industrial market often sell low volume products at steep prices.
I'd like to know what Acube's primary market is.
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Probably whoever Acube's real customer base is had a requirement where the 460 was the best fit.
They *never* confirmed any sale ouside the OS4 community and the website is 100% OS4-o-centric. Unless they confirm that they sold serious numbers of the Sam boards outside Amigaland I *highly doubt* they did.
They may target that market, but I don't see them selling outside Amigaland. If they were successful, they would communicating this (no, they don't need to disclose names, but usually start ups are happy to announce successes). Denx GmbH, which are listed on the Acube site as partner, don't list Acube products on their hardware page.
IMHO it is a mythst or probably wishful thinking that Sams are sold to the embedded market. At least not in serious quantities.
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They *never* confirmed any sale ouside the OS4 community and the website is 100% OS4-o-centric. Unless they confirm that they sold serious numbers of the Sam boards outside Amigaland I *highly doubt* they did.
They may target that market, but I don't see them selling outside Amigaland. If they were successful, they would communicating this (no, they don't need to disclose names, but usually start ups are happy to announce successes). Denx GmbH, which are listed on the Acube site as partner, don't list Acube products on their hardware page.
IMHO it is a mythst or probably wishful thinking that Sams are sold to the embedded market. At least not in serious quantities.
On their homepage and software page, sure. On their hardware page they don't mention OS4. In their user manuals they never mention OS4. The Flex seems to be the only exception - it's clearly tied to the OS4 market.
Look at the generic wording for the SAM440 & 460 boards:
"The Sam460ex is made both for embedded and consumer markets. It can be adapted to different needs. "..." How can the operating system be loaded? It is possible to load the operating system from a SATA harddisk, a CDROM connected on SATA, a USB key, a SD card or from the network."
How do you explain the EyeMotion?
Also keep in mind, the SAM440 used to be on it's own domain. Acube could have easily pointed potential embedded customers to that domain without ever having to explain why OS4 is so prominent on the Acube home page. That domain is now deprecated, but you can still find the links to it via Google (SAM440.com).
As for not announcing their customers, maybe they have the same kind of clients as whoever supplies the CPU to A-eon.
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On their homepage and software page, sure. On their hardware page they don't mention OS4. In their user manuals they never mention OS4. The Flex seems to be the only exception - it's clearly tied to the OS4 market.
Look at the generic wording for the SAM440 & 460 boards:
"The Sam460ex is made both for embedded and consumer markets. It can be adapted to different needs. "..." How can the operating system be loaded? It is possible to load the operating system from a SATA harddisk, a CDROM connected on SATA, a USB key, a SD card or from the network."
How do you explain the EyeMotion?
Also keep in mind, the SAM440 used to be on it's own domain. Acube could have easily pointed potential embedded customers to that domain without ever having to explain why OS4 is so prominent on the Acube home page. That domain is now deprecated, but you can still find the links to it via Google (SAM440.com).
As for not announcing their customers, maybe they have the same kind of clients as whoever supplies the CPU to A-eon.
The eyemotion is indeed not exlainable with amiga only (but there are drivers for it and on the 460 board it will be kind of included). And as said, I don't think they were not targetting the embedded market initially and probably sold a few items, but I suspect they weren't really successful. Originally the boards are interesting, tiny, low energy, kind of nice. But that alone doesn't seem to cut it.
Anyway, I kind of like Acube. They actually design boards and deliver. The boards are nice, but overpriced. But I don't see a substancial embedded marked backing up Acube when there is no real evidence given.
I hope Acube will correct this. As said, there is no name disclosure required, but when they have a deal it woudn't be too unusual if they announced they sold major stock to some mil/com/finace/other-übersecret-market-division/alien company from outer space or maybe even Microsoft.
But w/o confirmation I continue to doubt they sell serious stock outside Amigaland.
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Not the C++ itself (althought I don't like it myself, it sure has some benefits in some case), but I fear the author might be losing focus. Just an example: I know several guys who keep working on the same project, reshaping it to whatever new ideas they have and/or technologies arising. The problem being that the actual project itself doesn't advance.
I feel the same actually. I've spent quite some time on this C++ conversion and I'm a bit frustrated about not advancing the product right now. But the alternative to continue with the tedious manual cut n' pasting of C code is was not very nice either.
I still believe that it will be better in the end.