Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: rvo_nl on October 05, 2010, 07:17:55 PM
-
Hey all, please advise. I'm having troubles with my a1200 lately. Problems started a few months ago, with random crashes while playing 3D games that use the PPC processor. Amazingly, half a year ago I could play games like Quake and H2 for hours without a single crash. (not that I did, since Q1 is rather boring and H2 runs like sh*t, but nice stresstests, no? ;)
Naturally, I started to look first for a software problem since this is rather common on a 1200/ppc setup. I've tried every possible combination of WarpOS , Warp3D and CyberGraphX. I've turned off all patches I was running. I left stuff out of WBstartup. I put an old backup back. I did a lot of stresstesting, but it has something to do with the PPC processor, that I am sure of. I havent had any crashes while playing MP3's using AmigaAmp, but in that case PPC is only utilised 30% or something.
I suspected a cooling problem, too, so I added heatsinks on all 'hot' chips on ppc+bvision. I even tried putting a desktop fan next to the opened tower, but still the machine crashed albeit not as often.
I've checked IDE-Fix, Indivision and ROM connection the motherboard. I've tried running OS4 (I have a triple boot setup) instead, but it doesnt load at all. Ofcourse Ive tried various ENV settings for all related stuff. I did a memtest and swapped simms around.
Last, I started looking for a power issue. I still have the original a1200 powertower/elbox PSU, which is rated at 250W. Last year I totally cleaned it out with compressed air and added a new fan. So, I tried disconnecting both optical drives, but still stuff crashed.
Then, half an hour ago, something interesting happened. I was going to give Heretic II a try (I wanted to test cd audio output). First I did a timedemo of Quake to see if my system was stable enough. Then I inserted the H2 cd-rom (Keep in mind I normally dont have cd or dvd in my drives) and started the game. Immediate WarpOS crash! I rebooted.. Upon booting, the cdrom drive is spinning up to check the cd in the drive. At the same time Workbench is loading my Workbench backdrop using PPC datatypes. And every time it did this, it crashed straight away, sometimes even losing the blizkicked OS3.9 rom in the process!
After some time, I took out the cdrom, so there was no spinning of the drive during boot, and much to my surprise, workbench loaded fine. I was able to repeat this without problems a few times. (I'm pretty sure my machine will still crash with my drives detached though)
So, for the few brave enough to have read this far, what do you think is going on here?
Software issue?
IDE-Fix Express conflict?
Power Supply Fail?
Dying PPC/Bvision?
Would be great to have some pointers before I invest in a new PSU.
-
Have you checked your memory cards already ? You might wanna clean the pins.
-
yeah I have 2 128MB simms and have tried em seperately in either of the 2 slots. So that is ruled out..
-
Hey all, please advise. I'm having troubles with my a1200 lately. Problems started a few months ago, with random crashes while playing 3D games that use the PPC processor. Amazingly, half a year ago I could play games like Quake and H2 for hours without a single crash. (not that I did, since Q1 is rather boring and H2 runs like sh*t, but nice stresstests, no? ;)
Ok, my first question would be, what's changed?
You say this behaviour started a few months ago, did you add or remove something a few months ago in terms either of hardware or software?
-
Nothing at all. I've kept track of almost every change I've done to my Amiga, software-wise and was thus able to turn back all changes until the point where it ran stable earlier.
And I haven't touched the hardware. At one time I was able to fix the crashes for a day or so, by reseating the ppc card. But this is not 100% confirmed and I havent been able to reproduce.
-
Sounds like it could be time to break out the alcohol to clean up all your connector contacts.
Might also be worth reseating the heatsink on the ppc and applying some fresh thermal paste.
-
I would still check into the PSU - maybe take it to a PC shop (because they can't complain about amiga stuff if you leave the Amiga home :) - and have them test it? Or if you are electrically inclined, do so yourself.
I had an accelerated A1200/68030/50 with the microbiotics card in it and everytime I had weird issues, it was from using the stock PSU (which definitely is NOT up to the task). moved to the much uglier but more powerful one I got from an amiga dealer, and voila, problems gone.
May not be your issue but definitely worth a wee bit more investigation to rule it out.
amigau
http::/www.amigau.com
-
yeah I'll see what I can do. Perhaps I can find some old PSU somewhere to try out and see if it helps.
I did apply fresh thermal paste to the ppc cpu. Will get some contact spray aswell.
-
remember that not just 'any' PSU will work - besides the custom connector, it has to be putting out the right voltages/etc. Which I do not know offhand, save pretty sure that they are a bit different than vanilla PC-PSU output. I will try to remember to do some digging tonight to see if I can find what they might be, but be forewarned in any event.
amigau
http://www.amigau.com
-
thanks for the warning. I was aware of that, but I thought the PSU in the Elbox tower was a pretty standard afair. The tower itself comes with a AT power lead -> Amiga power lead converter thingie. There was something regarding the power switch that looked quite hard though.. Cant remember what it was.
-
The tower itself comes with a AT power lead -> Amiga power lead converter thingie.
My psu has this one too, but I also have a standard power connector going directly from the psu to the hd.
-
hey all, I havent touched my Amiga since but tonight I gave it another try. All's fine until both CD-rom drives spin up, then I get that instant crash again. Surely must be a power issue. I dont mind investing in a new PSU. In worst case I have one for spare.
But uhm.. does anyone know how to replace a Power Tower / Elbox PSU but keeping the power switch up front intact? Will any AT PSU do? What about the floppy power connector, that's not standard is it?
-
Any AT PSU would be suitable for replacing the current PSU. It might be difficult to find one though, so ATX with ATX to Amiga adapter might be easier to find.
The floppy power connector is bog standard, so it will be on any PSU you find.
-
Any AT PSU would be suitable for replacing the current PSU. It might be difficult to find one though, so ATX with ATX to Amiga adapter might be easier to find.
The floppy power connector is bog standard, so it will be on any PSU you find.
Yes it will probably be easier to find an ATX PSU nowadays, and you can use either a ATX to Amiga or ATX to AT adapter, or you can hack the wires & connectors for youself.
I'm not sure what type of power switch your tower has, but if it's the old AT type, you can probably connect the wires from it to the green wire (PSU ON) and one of the black wires (GND) of the ATX PSU connector.
For more info about hacking ATX PSU's for use with Amigas, you can take a look at this page: http://www.ianstedman.co.uk/Amiga/amiga_hacks/Amiga_Power_supplies/body_amiga_power_supplies.html
-
thanks for your replies. I was aware of that ianstedman website, but I recall something specific for the PSU in my elbox power tower. I even remember a thread on a site like this about it, but cant find it. will take the PSU out and have a look at the wiring.
-
I had the same problems when I first got my BPPC (I'm sure I've answered this one before elsewhere) at first I thought it was the edge connector and so I de-soldered and then re-soldered a new one on (not an easy task)... :)
Anyway turned out I still had the same problems, the cure turned out to be a new PSU for my my tower, seemed when everything was connected up, DVD drives, HDs etc... I would get these problems... :(
It turned out to be the very old PSU for some reason wasn't supplying enough current on the -12V supply. Since installing the new PSU about 4 years ago I've never seen this problem occur again... :)
-
It turned out to be the very old PSU for some reason wasn't supplying enough current on the -12V supply. Since installing the new PSU about 4 years ago I've never seen this problem occur again... :)
Strange that this caused crashes. I once forgot to wire in the -12V rail entirely and the worst I got was half-wave rectified audio (not pleasant) and failure of the serial port to operate (again, signal rectification). As soon as I realised my mistake and connected it, all was well.
I don't know how your machine is wired up, but I used both the original rear port connector as well as the motherboard floppy power header as places to inject the 0, 5 and 12V rails. The -12V rail is only attached via the rear connector, but then again, current requirement is minimal. I did find that even after supplying the HD, floppy and CD directly from the PSU, the combined draw of the 1200 motherboard, BlizzardPPC and BVisionPPC was a bit more than I was comfortable feeding in through the original power connector, which is why I decided to inject additional power via the motherboard floppy power header.
-
Sounds like it could be time to break out the alcohol to clean up all your connector contacts.
Won't that be a bit fiddly after a skinful? :drink: :drink:
-
Strange that this caused crashes. I once forgot to wire in the -12V rail entirely and the worst I got was half-wave rectified audio (not pleasant) and failure of the serial port to operate (again, signal rectification). As soon as I realised my mistake and connected it, all was well.
I don't know how your machine is wired up, but I used both the original rear port connector as well as the motherboard floppy power header as places to inject the 0, 5 and 12V rails. The -12V rail is only attached via the rear connector, but then again, current requirement is minimal. I did find that even after supplying the HD, floppy and CD directly from the PSU, the combined draw of the 1200 motherboard, BlizzardPPC and BVisionPPC was a bit more than I was comfortable feeding in through the original power connector, which is why I decided to inject additional power via the motherboard floppy power header.
The first power supply I used was the one from my old A1500 this had run fine for years with my plain old Blizzard060, the day I got the BlizzardPPC from ebay was the start of the problems. At first I put id own to being the edge connector as sometimes but not always, it seem to cause the crashes if you just moved the boar slightly with one finger.
So I spent the next two days de-soldering the old edge connecter and re-soldering on a much more sturdier one that I had on an old 4Meg memory expansion. As I say this turned out not to be the problem as the results where just the same.
So the next thing I tried was an old PC PSU that I nicked from one of my sisters PCs, this worked a lot better but still with the odd crash. That PSU if I recall correctly had a max of 500ma on the -12V supply. So then I bought a new PSU that had -12V @ 1000ma (again if i recall correctly, suffice to say the only difference was a higher rating on the -12V) and have never seen the problem since... :)
That's why I put it down to being something to do with the -12V, but I can't be 100% certain as I was just so happy the problem was solved I never checked it out any further... :)
All power connectors on my set up are taken directly from the PSU as I'm not keen on having lots of other connections coming from the ports on the MB. Everything has worked fine for many years now using this PSU in this way and the full specs of my main A1200 are:-
Blizzard060/PPC 60Mhz/240Mhz / 256Mb RAM / 2 x 500GB 3.5" HDs / 2 X DVD-CD ReWriters / FastATA MKIII / SubWay USB / Cocolino Wireless Mouse Adapter / Custom Built Amp & Fader (for Amiga & CD Audio)
-
That PSU if I recall correctly had a max of 500ma on the -12V supply. So then I bought a new PSU that had -12V @ 1000ma (again if i recall correctly, suffice to say the only difference was a higher rating on the -12V) and have never seen the problem since... :)
That's why I put it down to being something to do with the -12V, but I can't be 100% certain as I was just so happy the problem was solved I never checked it out any further... :)
Holy crap, 1A for -12VDC? What's the overall wattage of that thing? Even my CoolerMaster 850W PSU (http://www.coolermaster.com/product.php?product_id=2543) only puts out a maximum of 800mA for -12VDC.
I guess your newer PSU may have cleaner output or something. Certainly there's nothing in the A1200 that draws on the -12V aside from audio and serial etc. Not exactly what you'd call heavy-duty requirements.
-
Holy crap, 1A for -12VDC? What's the overall wattage of that thing? Even my CoolerMaster 850W PSU (http://www.coolermaster.com/product.php?product_id=2543) only puts out a maximum of 800mA for -12VDC.
I guess your newer PSU may have cleaner output or something. Certainly there's nothing in the A1200 that draws on the -12V aside from audio and serial etc. Not exactly what you'd call heavy-duty requirements.
It was just a 350W non branded PSU I bought from CPC/Farnell. I picked that one cos all the others only went up to 800mA at the time and that was the only one that gave out 1000mA... :roflmao:
As I say, it worked and I haven't seen those problems again so I never bothered to figure out the precise cause of the crashes... :)
-
Wow, I've never seen such low wattage PSUs with such high -12V ratings. Modern PC PSU's only have such high-rated +12V rails because you can step it down to whatever low-voltage/high-current requirements are needed directly on the device.
I thought 800mA was Overkill 9000 (TM) :lol: I wonder what uses -12V at anything like that current rating?
-
That's true, I don't think I've ever seen any Amiga peripheral that required more that 100mA @12V... kinda makes me wonder why go up to 800 let alone 1000... :)
-
temperature/cpuload related problem might be due to broken balls under ppc. as long as not stressed too much it would stay cool while under load would warm up and some ball would loose contact. wasnt it the main issue of ppc boards? i dont know why do you expect it to be psu..
-
That's true, I don't think I've ever seen any Amiga peripheral that required more that 100mA @12V... kinda makes me wonder why go up to 800 let alone 1000... :)
Hard disks and 12V fans are capable of pulling a bit, but they use the +12V rail, of which there's usually plenty of amps available. But -12V ? *shrug*
-
I have been going through system freezes recently. Finally the PSU died (it was one from an A500). That's the third A500 or A1200 PSU I've had cause problems and then die. They really suck but I suppose they have lasted a long time. I invested in a Goliath and it's good so far - just noisy (
-
temperature/cpuload related problem might be due to broken balls under ppc. as long as not stressed too much it would stay cool while under load would warm up and some ball would loose contact. wasnt it the main issue of ppc boards? i dont know why do you expect it to be psu..
The simple reason for it most likely being a PSU problem is I use very much the same set up and the answer to it indeed turned out to be the PSU... :)
I even took temperature readings, re-soldered just about every solder joint, replaced the edge connector all with no success. Replacing the PSU with one of 350W did the trick for whatever reason and I've never seen the problem again since... :)
-
@Franko
Did it not occur to you to check a different PSU before embarking on replacing the edge connector?
-
@Franko
Did it not occur to you to check a different PSU before embarking on replacing the edge connector?
Unfortunately no... :(
I thought that the original A1500 PSU would have had enough power, but the thing that made me think it was the edge connector was, I had on a number of occasions gently moved the board to see if it was a loose connection of some kind and a few times this seemed to result in a crash...
Turned out it was mere coincidence, but I sure learned just how tough it is to remove an edge connector from an A1200 trapdoor expansion... ;)
-
The simple reason for it most likely being a PSU problem is I use very much the same set up and the answer to it indeed turned out to be the PSU... :)
Thanks Franko, I'm so much more confident my PSU is getting old. Will get a replacement ASAP.
@wawrzon, thanks for your concern, but Im afraid I ruled out temperature-related issues. Its freezing over in Amsterdam and this problem occurs when booting from cold, starting OS3.9 and opening both CD-rom trays. And its reproducable. Sure, it could be something to do with my IDE-Fix or even a driver, but when I unplug both drives and demand a lot from just the PPC or Bvision I get crashes, too. So both cd-rom driver and ppc/warp3d driver? I dont think so..
In case you are right (we will know soon enough) I will apologise and will have a nice spare PSU :)
Still dont know how to hook up the PSU to the Elbox power switch though.. Must find out more about that.
-
Thanks Franko, I'm so much more confident my PSU is getting old. Will get a replacement ASAP.
@wawrzon, thanks for your concern, but Im afraid I ruled out temperature-related issues. Its freezing over in Amsterdam and this problem occurs when booting from cold, starting OS3.9 and opening both CD-rom trays. And its reproducable. Sure, it could be something to do with my IDE-Fix or even a driver, but when I unplug both drives and demand a lot from just the PPC or Bvision I get crashes, too. So both cd-rom driver and ppc/warp3d driver? I dont think so..
In case you are right (we will know soon enough) I will apologise and will have a nice spare PSU :)
Still dont know how to hook up the PSU to the Elbox power switch though.. Must find out more about that.
I think & hope it will solve your problems, just don't go trying to de-solder the edge connector it's a bit of a wasted effort to be honest... :)
-
tbh, I didnt even know you could replace that.. It is somehow related to the power issue though, at one time, when I had the 'strange crashes' again, I took the ppc card out and in again. After that, the problem seemed solved for weeks. Could be coincidence.
-
well, here I am again with a small update. Ive installed a new ATX power supply and got this ATX-AT adapter from Amigakit that sadly is currently connected to the reset button. This might change in the future. More importantly are the results. Im happy to say that I have not experienced any instability issues. All demanding apps run fine, the power led shines brighter than ever before, I can open the cd drives as often as I like, thats all good.
There is bad news, too. Every custom screen I open is a bit garbled. Random stripes and garbage. Not a lot, but still, its not supposed to happen. The Workbench is fine, as is every app that opens on the Workbench screen. Its just stuff like IBrowse, Diropus and Quake (1) that have artifacts. To me it seems this can only be a software-issue and I guess I should do a reinstall. But perhaps Im wrong and this is somehow related to the Bvision?
Also Ive noticed OS4 wont start anymore, it quickly flashes blue when loading the ROM and then nothing happens. This could too be the result of the testing I did when my old PSU was giving up, so I dont know for sure whats causing this.
Any ideas are welcome. But please dont tell me I still have hardware issues.. ? :(