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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Topic started by: chris on October 02, 2010, 01:27:09 PM

Title: A first for OS4?
Post by: chris on October 02, 2010, 01:27:09 PM
Unsatisfactory Software is proud to announce the first release of the WebP DataType for AmigaOS 4.

WebP is a new heavily compressed image format developed by Google. In a repeat of the launch of PNG, where Cloanto made AmigaOS one of the first operating systems to support the new format, Unsatisfactory Software has performed the same feat with WebP.

This new DataType will allow any OS4 system with DataTypes supporting software, to view WebP images. This includes older AmigaOS web browsers such as AWeb.

WebPConv can be used to convert existing images to the new format.

WebP DataType (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cdyoung/tmp/webp_dt.lha)
WebPConv (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cdyoung/tmp/webpconv.lha)

More information about WebP can be found at http://code.google.com/speed/webp
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: Pyromania on October 02, 2010, 02:11:57 PM
Great news, thanx for your hard work.
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: DBAlex on October 02, 2010, 05:54:27 PM
Quote from: chris;582551
Unsatisfactory Software is proud to announce the first release of the WebP DataType for AmigaOS 4.

WebP is a new heavily compressed image format developed by Google. In a repeat of the launch of PNG, where Cloanto made AmigaOS one of the first operating systems to support the new format, Unsatisfactory Software has performed the same feat with WebP.

This new DataType will allow any OS4 system with DataTypes supporting software, to view WebP images. This includes older AmigaOS web browsers such as AWeb.

WebPConv can be used to convert existing images to the new format.

WebP DataType (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cdyoung/tmp/webp_dt.lha)
WebPConv (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cdyoung/tmp/webpconv.lha)

More information about WebP can be found at http://code.google.com/speed/webp


Great! Did you have some code already written? Or more precisely: How did you write a datatype so quickly. :-p
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: chris on October 02, 2010, 06:17:02 PM
Quote from: DBAlex;582614
Great! Did you have some code already written? Or more precisely: How did you write a datatype so quickly. :-p


I have some old datatypes (based on the code of salass00) which need minimal alteration to create a new one, and the WebP library is very simple.  The hardest bit was building libvpx, but after a few failed attempts I realised MickJT had already ported it - so I just used the pre-built one.

Simples ;)
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: Templario on October 02, 2010, 06:27:45 PM
Thank you for you work, Amiga OS in the head in this new format, not in the tail.
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: desiv on October 02, 2010, 07:03:42 PM
That reminds me...
Back in the day, I had a HAM-E video box, and the software that came with it.

This was in the early 90's...

I remember being online and the Black Belt guys were talking about adding support for a new compression routine/standard.  So I DLd the update and was viewing compressed images that were TINY but incredible!!!  
Yep, it was JPEG.

What reminded me from this thread was that I remember the BB guys saying they believed their software was the first commercial software to support JPEG.
If true, that would make the Amiga, the first computer to commercially support JPEG as well...

(They were also pretty early to provide morphing I think.... ???)

Can't remember the software name tho now..  Image..  magic/master???

Anyway, yeay for OS4 and the new datatype.  Another Amiga first.

desiv
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: persia on October 02, 2010, 07:14:19 PM
I don't quite get it.  I go to Google's site and they have WebP encoded PNGs how do these differ from ordinary PNGs?
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: BinoX on October 02, 2010, 07:22:17 PM
The PNGs on googles site are not WebP images..

It is a screenshot of a WebP image... Since WebP isn't really supported by anything at the moment the only way they could show the quality of WebP was to use a lossless picture format (png)

When/If WebP takes off then you'll get to see some real WebP images
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: motrucker on October 02, 2010, 07:56:19 PM
Quote from: desiv;582637
That reminds me...
Back in the day, I had a HAM-E video box, and the software that came with it.

This was in the early 90's...

I remember being online and the .... tho now..  Image..  magic/master???

Anyway, yeay for OS4 and the new datatype.  Another Amiga first.

desiv

How 'bout second - The Linux routines have been available for a bit...
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: Piru on October 02, 2010, 08:12:49 PM
Another jpeg2000 I'm afraid. I've never had any use for the jpeg2000 datatype for instance.
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: desiv on October 02, 2010, 08:15:55 PM
Quote from: motrucker;582648
How 'bout second - The Linux routines have been available for a bit...
As the first source code for Linux was in 1991 and JPEG was in 1992, I'd be surprised if Linux beat the Amiga in a "commmercial first" for JPEG.
I mean, I used some really early Linux distros and they weren't much for graphics apps back then.  

Unless you are just talking about WebP.

In which case, I'm not sure.  I didn't post initially about OS4 being first with WebP.

desiv
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: Piru on October 02, 2010, 08:26:26 PM
Quote from: desiv;582652
Unless you are just talking about WebP.

Quite clearly it was about the WebP in particular. Indeed it isn't a first.
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: desiv on October 02, 2010, 08:31:51 PM
Quote from: Piru;582655
Quite clearly it was about the WebP in particular. Indeed it isn't a first.

Most likely, but I prefer not to assume.

You can do whatever you choose...  ;-)

Wow.. Slow day for you??  :roflmao:

desiv
p.s  For clarification for Piru as it obviously bothered him, I was replying in that way to let him know that, since he was replying about WebP (most likely) not being a first, he should have been quoting the person who originally made the statement.  Mine was more a tangent about jpeg.
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: lionstorm on October 02, 2010, 09:00:13 PM
thanks !

any chance you would do more datatypes like ogg ? we have mp3, flac and wave but no ogg datatype (I usually encode my CDs in ogg with ADripper).
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: chris on October 02, 2010, 09:09:26 PM
Quote from: Piru;582655
Quite clearly it was about the WebP in particular. Indeed it isn't a first.


Hence the question mark.

Of course, the routines are available for Linux, but beyond the example webpconv file converter, what can you actually do with WebP on Linux?  Does anything else support it?

With this datatype you can actually use WebP files under AmigaOS just like any other image file format, without the need to convert the files back to something else first in a manual process.

I've just written the code for NetSurf for WebP too, so at least one web browser will shortly be supporting it.  Whether WebP takes off... well, we'll see.  With Google behind it, it just might.

As for JPEG2000, there are some incredibly high quality NASA charts in JPEG2000 format, the lower quality ones are JPEG.  It may not have much of a foothold, but there are JPEG2000 images out there in the wild - unlike MNG/JNG.

It takes a long time for a new graphics format to gain a following, I was using PNG for years (on my website too) before the main browsers started supporting it properly, and got lamented for it.  Now everybody uses PNG.  You have to start somewhere.  I'd rather release this now and show that AmigaOS is still up-to-date, than wait five years for the forums to be full of "why can't I view this image, it's in WebP format?".

Besides, it was quick and easy to do, I've probably wasted more time explaining myself than actually writing code.
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: chris on October 02, 2010, 09:13:01 PM
Quote from: lionstorm;582659
thanks !

any chance you would do more datatypes like ogg ? we have mp3, flac and wave but no ogg datatype (I usually encode my CDs in ogg with ADripper).


You might want to direct that question towards Fredrik (salass00), he's more of a whizz on the audio datatypes than me (given that I've never written one).
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: Karlos on October 02, 2010, 10:41:54 PM
The day datatypes become bidirectional, I'll be a happy man :)
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: chris on October 02, 2010, 11:06:05 PM
Quote from: Karlos;582672
The day datatypes become bidirectional, I'll be a happy man :)


They already are, but hardly anything supports the save function, so it's rare for datatypes to implement it (this one doesn't, although I suspect it's about two lines of code so I can add it if you have a need for it?)
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: Karlos on October 02, 2010, 11:16:52 PM
Quote from: chris;582676
They already are, but hardly anything supports the save function, so it's rare for datatypes to implement it (this one doesn't, although I suspect it's about two lines of code so I can add it if you have a need for it?)


By bidirectional I mean saving in the same format the datatype decodes, that is to say, every datatype subclass as a codec. Every time I've saved a datatype, I've got an IFF file.

Ideally, one would be able to get a list of available subclasses from the parent class. You could then pick one and ask the datatype system to export data in that format.
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: chris on October 02, 2010, 11:38:30 PM
Quote from: Karlos;582677
By bidirectional I mean saving in the same format the datatype decodes, that is to say, every datatype subclass as a codec. Every time I've saved a datatype, I've got an IFF file.


Yes, that's what I was talking about.  The datatypes system is perfectly capable of doing this (although MultiView's support is a bit rubbish - I think it always writes in IFF, it should be asking), however most subclasses just forward DTM_WRITE to the superclass - ie. you end up with an IFF file.  There is a little program on Aminet which converts between formats using datatypes, but I can't find it at the moment.

Because there's next to no software which uses the function, the majority of datatypes don't implement it.

edit http://aminet.net/package/util/conv/DTConvert018
Doesn't support v43 picture datatype interface, although source is available so that could be fixed.
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: Karlos on October 02, 2010, 11:41:26 PM
Quote from: chris;582682
Because there's next to no software which uses the function, the majority of datatypes don't implement it.


Chicken v Egg ?
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: chris on October 03, 2010, 12:03:30 AM
Quote from: Karlos;582684
Chicken v Egg ?


Yep.
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: Piru on October 03, 2010, 12:34:42 AM
Quote from: chris;582661
I've just written the code for NetSurf for WebP too, so at least one web browser will shortly be supporting it.
It's nice to have other browsers than just WebKit based ones supporting it.
"While WebP images can’t be viewed until browsers support the format, we are developing a patch for WebKit to provide native support for WebP in an upcoming release of Google Chrome."

Quote
It takes a long time for a new graphics format to gain a following, I was using PNG for years (on my website too) before the main browsers started supporting it properly, and got lamented for it.  Now everybody uses PNG.  You have to start somewhere.  I'd rather release this now and show that AmigaOS is still up-to-date, than wait five years for the forums to be full of "why can't I view this image, it's in WebP format?".
WebP is still evolving as far as I can tell, so I think I'll rather wait and see if any need for it will arise before bothering too much with it.

Then again I'd indeed be just 30 mins of work to get it going as datatype... so why not.

As for being up-to-date, there are still some very basic core features missing/incomplete in the OS4. As long as you're not able to use basic things such as USB2 or flash it's quite hard to appear modern. 3D support is quite poor, too.
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: kolla on October 03, 2010, 12:59:51 AM
Quote from: chris;582682
Because there's next to no software which uses the function, the majority of datatypes don't implement it.

Hm, doesn't PPaint support this?
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: Karlos on October 03, 2010, 02:31:34 AM
Quote from: kolla;582694
Hm, doesn't PPaint support this?

Reading through some example source and documentation it seems that writing images in indexed modes works through V42 datatype calls. Not sure if the feature is supported for RGB images as of V43, which may explain why it went un-developed since?

Whatever the reasons, it's stupidly overdue.
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: chris on October 03, 2010, 11:17:53 AM
Quote from: Karlos;582702
Reading through some example source and documentation it seems that writing images in indexed modes works through V42 datatype calls. Not sure if the feature is supported for RGB images as of V43, which may explain why it went un-developed since?


It must be supported for v43, as IFF saves work in 24/32-bit.

It's only a case of using PDTM_READPIXELARRAY to get the data and then writing it out to disk in the right format.

It would be a good start if MultiView allowed selection of the save format.
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: krashan on October 03, 2010, 01:17:28 PM
Quote from: Karlos;582672
The day datatypes become bidirectional, I'll be a happy man :)

Reggae (MorphOS "Datatypes NG") will be bidirectional in a few coming months, API for this is being worked out. Of course not all codecs automagically, but the first steps in this direction are done already. Then I may consider implementing WebP decoder and encoder, but in my opinion it is too  early as the "standard" is now defined in terms of early beta source code (instead of solid documentation) and poorly adopted in the IT world. Also remembering the story of failed JPEG2000 and failed JPEG XR hints to take some distance. While being the first is good from marketing point of view, it does not add much real functionality, and functionality is what MorphOS development is focused on.
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: Karlos on October 03, 2010, 03:00:06 PM
I thought reggae was more for streaming (sound/video) datatypes than static content?
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: Fab on October 03, 2010, 05:15:18 PM
WebP is small fry... OWB for MorphOS supports WebM since about 3 months. :)

/me runs
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: krashan on October 03, 2010, 06:08:28 PM
Quote from: Karlos;582754
I thought reggae was more for streaming (sound/video) datatypes than static content?

Reggae uses the same concept of static image as WebP ;-). Static image is just a video with a single frame inside. In fact it supports more than 10 image formats, while video framework is still not finished... Lack of free time sucks :-/.
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: Boot_WB on October 03, 2010, 06:13:27 PM
Quote from: Fab;582767
WebP is small fry... OWB for MorphOS supports WebM since about 3 months. :)

/me runs


"You're terrible Muriel..."

Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: SamuraiCrow on October 03, 2010, 09:50:17 PM
Quote from: Piru;582651
Another jpeg2000 I'm afraid. I've never had any use for the jpeg2000 datatype for instance.


There was a hefty licensing fee for the software that creates JPEG2000 images.  That's why that format never caught on.

Is there a licensing fee for WebP?  I don't think so.  The only problem with WebP that I've heard about is that it takes longer to compress than a JPEG.  Having had the same problem with compressing PNGs on a Classic Amiga, I doubt that will be a huge problem as long as the download speed is accelerated by the improved compression.
Title: Re: A first for OS4?
Post by: warpdesign on October 04, 2010, 12:46:19 PM
Quote

we have mp3, flac and wave

Is sound limited to full loading as well (IIRC you can't have progressive image loading using DT) ? If it's the case, such large sound data format datatype is quite useless... Who would wait 10-15 sec before his mp3 sound is loaded ? Btw, eating a whole 40Mb ;)

Datatype was a good idea, but its concept needs to be extended for today's usage. I guess that's what Reaggae does (in addition to adding filters stuff and a lot more...).

As for webP, I had a quick look at their comparison page, and though I could have the same results by compressing PNG looseless files just a little more than they did. Then the quality is about the same, and even better...

Btw, one nice feature (at that time at least) was progressive loading: does webP support something like this ?