Amiga.org
Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Topic started by: SysAdmin on September 17, 2010, 09:52:46 PM
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The clock is ticking and in less than 12 hours we will reveal a new Bounty that will Toast all other bounty's that came before it in the Amiga scene. We wish to thank a very generous donator for his kindness.
Be the first one to guess what it is and get $100 donated in your behalf. The number 12 is also a clue.
Best regards
Sandee
Virtual Character Representative
DiscreetFX Team
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Alladin 4D, perhaps?
EDIT: Err. No. Wait. Gotta be VT5 (Video Toaster 5).
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Alladin 4D, perhaps?
EDIT: Err. No. Wait. Gotta be VT5 (Video Toaster 5).
At first you rendered your statement wrong, it's nothing to do with Aladdin 4D. But then you were getting warmer.
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At first you rendered your statement wrong, it's nothing to do with Aladdin 4D. But then you were getting warmer.
Tricaster?
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Your thinking too much about modern times, digg into your Amiga past.
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Your thinking too much about modern times, digg into your Amiga past.
Well. My last bet it Millenium then.
But just because I don't know of any program with a 12 in it and Millenium is one of the most well known tools.
EDIT: Also. The Mayans consider 2012 the beginning of the end (aka. the last millenium).
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12 is not a product name, it's a really big number.
:)
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Well its not likely firefox.......moving on...
Something to do with the A1200 perhaps?
Natami?..Just In Time Port?....???
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At first you rendered your statement wrong, it's nothing to do with Aladdin 4D. But then you were getting warmer.
Wow.. Interesting use of that word..
"rendered".. Hmm.. That would make me wonder ...
And then he was getting warmer.. With the VT5 bit..
And with the recent OpenSourcing of some of that software...
So, a renderer with a VT relation that is 12 somehow?
Wish I knew more about that product line... :)
desiv
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Lemme Guess:
Tim Jennison is allowing the VT4 to be ported to Amiga os 4.1
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Hmmmmmm,
Could it be a new bounty to get the open sourced Video "Toast"er software, including Lightwave5.x for the Amiga ported to AmigaOS4.x, AROS, & MorphOS2.x?
That would be something to "Toast", but as some have already written in the past, much of the Video Toaster code is badly commented and written, and also so tied to the original Amiga's custom chips that the original code is of little use to someone porting it (more like re-writing it from scratch).
I can't quite figure out what the number 12 would have to do with the above though.
Edit: Perhaps it is the open sourcing of the group of programs and updates to programs called "Millenium" and that there are 12 programs or updates included? I would have to get my Millenium package out and count the number of programs it includes.
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Lemme Guess:
Tim Jennison is allowing the VT4 to be ported to Amiga os 4.1
Most, if not all the VT4 code has already been open sourced for a long time.
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Hmm... don't even understand the thread title 'Less than 12 Hours for a new Bounty to Toast all other bountys in the Amiga Market' (must be an american thing) :confused:
Here is the UK a Bounty is a chocolate bar made with coconut and toast is basically grilled bread... :)
So my guess is it's a melted chocolate/coconut sweet lightly grilled on a slice of bread... :)
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Could it beeee....12 Competiton Pro joysticks? :-D
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Cinema 4D
:)
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Could it beeee....12 Competiton Pro joysticks? :-D
Very very funny.
:)
That's not it.
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Umm So not Cinema 4D then (the rendering and number 12 hint)
How about TurboCad? or maybe im going down the wrong street ;)
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Umm So not Cinema 4D then (the rendering and number 12 hint)
How about TurboCad? or maybe im going down the wrong street ;)
Your driving down the wrong chip.
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hmmm...
Lightwave 3D is going onto version 10...
The OpalVision card has a socket for a "Roaster" chip...
The words "12", "render" and "chip" are supposed hints...
Could it be some sorta replacement "chip" adding "12" additional functions on the VT card to "render" 3D transition wipes in real time?
:D
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Amiga past, number 12... Sunrise AD1012? Other than that... I got nuthin'
Plaz
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Render is not a hint, it has nothing to do with anything here.
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"12"... Hmm, it'll be of interested to all 12 remaining Amiga users? :-)
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I asked DiscreetFX if the video toaster could be used on an Aros machine if the software was ported to it. I asked on aw.net.
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No, its 12 new openvideotoaster cdroms for free (wasnt openvideotoaster free anyway?) to the first ones that sign in DiscreetFX guestbook or Alladin 4D´s new blog.
Ninety percent contestants will receive prices, and the angel investor will give you a coupon and a T-shirt with an Amizilla logo.
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Video Toaster (12 letters).
?- port to x1000 with xcore replacing the VT HW
?- VT HW implementation in SW emulation
?- low cost VT HW reimplementation for xorro slot
?- bounty to finance VT5 porting
?- support for TCXD850 and/or XD300
btw. when is the end of the 12 hour timer? Two more weeks (tm)?
The standby youtube video is now 17 hours old?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydS_lbXsxzw
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Definitely something Video Toaster related in my opinion, the capital "T" in "Toast" could be a clue there (although looking at the title also possibly just bad grammar). Id be surprised if its platform specific though.
Actually just now watched the youtube clip in the above post, probably a bigger clue than a capital "T" :)
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Buster rev 12? :)
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Buster rev 12? :)
Mouarf !! Very funny! :laughing:
It will be very cool but not at $50 per unit! :destroy:
I think it will be a "Twelvecaster" :lol:
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Over 14 hours since OP .....
So much for that ;(
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The whole puzzle riddle thing introduced by the x1000 announcement is getting old. Wasn't the last DiscreteFX riddle tied to the release of an upgrade or something?
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dont forget the mega excting joysticks
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So nothing then?
Even after a lot more than 12 hours... hmm to bad.
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Relax guys, the comic is not done yet. It's coming soon, you don't have to buy joysticks or anything.
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OK, the comic explaining this has started to come out. Point your browser to ----
http://www.openvideotoaster.org
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Still haven't a clue as to what this thread is about... :confused:
Anyone care to explain to a dummy like me what I'm supposed to be trying to figure out or solve here... :)
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Still haven't a clue as to what this thread is about... :confused:
Anyone care to explain to a dummy like me what I'm supposed to be trying to figure out or solve here... :)
LOL, that's why we made a nice comic book for you to read.
:)
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What's going on here?
Just links to youtube videos but no information about anything
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What's going on here?
Just links to youtube videos but no information about anything
You may want to look further down the page, and to the right :)
Bounty for Video Toaster on FPGA chip...
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You may want to look further down the page, and to the right :)
Bounty for Video Toaster on FPGA chip...
Tried that, still non the wiser... :(
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Tried that, still non the wiser... :(
As Transition mentioned, it's labeled under "Comic"
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Video Toaster (12 letters).
?- port to x1000 with xcore replacing the VT HW
?- VT HW implementation in SW emulation
?- low cost VT HW reimplementation for xorro slot
?- bounty to finance VT5 porting
?- support for TCXD850 and/or XD300
btw. when is the end of the 12 hour timer? Two more weeks (tm)?
The standby youtube video is now 17 hours old?
Haha, two more weeks not this time. While you were not 100% correct you did get most of it right so the backer of the bounty will add $100 on your behalf. Yes, that's right if this bounty fails you will get $200 back December 2012.
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As Transition mentioned, it's labeled under "Comic"
I read all that but as all sensible people know the world did end on 12/12/12 and no one got their money back... :)
Im off now back to the future erm.. past ... :)
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That's great news. Basically the Video Toaster Flyer was a non linear editor that took the video toaster 4 input switcher and added AB roll non linear video editing and video capture. The bountya pays $12000 and has a 2 year deadline. So in 2012 the Video Toaster flyer will be ported to FPGA.
Appliactions:
Zorro Toaster flyer in one card
A1200 slot video toaster flyer
MiniMig style video toaster flyer
Flyer FPGA add on for x1000
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The toaster is (AFAIK) NTSC-only, noone in civilized countries ever used NTSC (/runs) and everybody else stopped useing it some time ago.
So unless I'm missing something relevant to today's high-def TV-standard I'd say it's rather pointless.
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Web is still very much sd resoltion alhtough non interlaced. Once you have an SD version an HD version is not far behind. For instance. The PC SD toaster was able to be updated to SD editing quite well. So you can capture in SD but edit HD sources.
This is a good thing. Also once it's IN FPGA how hard would it be to switch to NTSC or add a Time base corrector on the original toaster pal transcoding and tbc's were add ons with an FPGA implementation those can be integrated.
So this is good news. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
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The toaster is (AFAIK) NTSC-only, noone in civilized countries ever used NTSC (/runs) and everybody else stopped useing it some time ago.
So unless I'm missing something relevant to today's high-def TV-standard I'd say it's rather pointless.
The "Open Video Toaster" goal is also to update the old code, so there is nothing that would prevent adding other display frequencies and resolutions to this project. The original Classic Amiga computers in North America (where the Video Toaster was invented) were all NTSC models, in a country where the only video standard of the time was NTSC, so it stands to reason that the original Video Toaster was aimed at the NTSC using consumers. Although, I never did understand why NewTek did not also make a PAL version of the board, given that there were more Amiga users in countries using that standard than there were in the USA & Canada. But none of that makes any difference now. A new VideoToaster/Flyer on an FPGA based board, or PCI card could use what ever display resolutions & frequencies that make sense in today's world.
Recreating 20 year old software & hardware without updating it would have much less market appeal and less usefulness, but would not be completely useless.
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The toaster is (AFAIK) NTSC-only, noone in civilized countries ever used NTSC (/runs) and everybody else stopped useing it some time ago.
So unless I'm missing something relevant to today's high-def TV-standard I'd say it's rather pointless.
An FPGA based Amiga Video Toaster does not have to only be NTSC, it could support many resolutions including PAL & even HD.
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Well, that was a pretty amazing announcement (http://smilearchive.com/s/cwm/cwm/sleep.gif)
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Dang, I still think a Buster rev 12 to fix all DMA issues once and for all would have been way cooler :o
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@DiscreetFX
Guys I loved the toaster, love the flyer, but I'm having a hard time figuring out the point of this bounty. Let me take a stab though and tell me if I'm close...
You want to create a new FPGA based toaster/flyer for Minimig and/or X1000 that's code compatible with the original, but also capable of new features?
Wouldn't that also require original hardware code used in the toaster/flyer?
And tell Mr. Van Dyke I said thanks and hello. :)
Plaz
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An FPGA based Amiga Video Toaster does not have to only be NTSC, it could support many resolutions including PAL & even HD.
Has anyone ever expressed any interest to work on this stuff? I took a look at some part of it once and it was something like ~100k lines of assembler, and this was just one component.
So the emphasis is very much on "could".
Frankly, I don't see the point. It'd be much easier to emulate the thing in SW anyway, if you must. Just take UAE and add the required things. FPGA is possible, too, but what benefits does it offer over pure sw solution?
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@Piru
UAE does not have an Amiga Video slot or Zorro II slot.
:)
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@Piru
UAE does not have an Amiga Video slot or Zorro II slot.
Neither does Minimig. Your point was?
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Neither does Minimig. Your point was?
Since this a 4 input hardware switcher, hardware + software will be required.
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Since this a 4 input hardware switcher, hardware + software will be required.
So have just the 4 input hardware switcher in hardware (say USB), and rest in software. If the rest is going to be FPGA it can as well be regular software as well. Much simpler to work with, more flexible, simpler and cheaper HW.
But I frankly still don't see the point. The software is ancient, and even trying to make it do anything but NTSC is going to be painful.
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I have a question who is going to be in charge of the bounty, I belive it would luck better if it was ran by Amigabounty.net or power2people.org this time.
PS: what ever happened to the UAE for Mac bounty?
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I have a question who is going to be in charge of the bounty, I belive it would luck better if it was ran by Amigabounty.net or power2people.org this time.
PS: what ever happened to the UAE for Mac bounty?
The main contributor is in charge. It's not even known if others will put any money in since it starts at such a impressive amount. If you don't like that don't donate, no one is asking you to. Unfortunately no one contributed to the UAE for Mac Bounty and it was closed.
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Frankly, I don't see the point. If you want to run the thing, use UAE.
I think Toaster/Flyer software it too closely tied to hardware to word on UAE. Not that it couldn't be solved, but why?
Better still, get a Tricaster and be done with it.
I'm kind of scratching my head on this project. Ok, we recreate hardware in FPGA that allows open toaster to run on minimig/x1000... whatever. Maybe Minimig AGA, gives a head start, but this seems like a multi-headed beast bound to grow beyound scope.
Create FPGA toater... ok, that market of dozens satisfied
For wider appeal, give thee FPGA toater new capabilities... ok, need new software to run it
Ok, develope open toaster software to run the new FPGA. Seems like a ton of work when Newtek already has modern rigs to do the same job.
I'd like to think that if the x1000 were successful, Newtek might like to port their modern code/hardware over.
But then maybe I don't understand a bigger picture here.
Plaz
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The main contributor is in charge. It's not even known if others will put any money in since it starts at such a impressive amount. If you don't like that don't donate, no one is asking you to.
The amount in question isn't that large really, considering the work required. However, obviously he can do whatever he likes with the money. Just don't expect everyone else to jump in.
Unfortunately no one contributed to the UAE for Mac Bounty and it was closed.
I have a strong feeling this will happen to this bounty as well.
It doesn't help that there are only handful of people with required background knowledge.
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I've never been big into the video editing side of the Amiga (I luvs the sound though:afro: ) but what I'm gettingfrom this bounty is recreating what the fist toaster did, open the doors to a cheap but powerful editing system that WORKS!
Yeah, I know things have become cheaper and you can get a video capture card for a few $$$, but none of that stuff is really quality. If this works out and is held to the same standards as the original VT, then I think we will see something rather cool that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
Also, think about what this bounty is doing. Noone has really done anything with the Open VT code. This incentive will hopefully change that!
PS- From what I understand, this will also take more direct advantage of which ever system it is created for, instaed of being some genaric POS (Piece of Software).
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Yeah, I know things have become cheaper and you can get a video capture card for a few $$$, but none of that stuff is really quality.
Have you compared these solutions against VT? Enthusiasm is good, but basing it on false premise is not.
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@Plaz
Of course the TriCaster and VT[5] are awesome. They are amazing solutions for live streaming, editing, and video production for Windows. Open Video Toaster is about preserving and enhancing the rich heritage of the Amiga Video Toaster and hopefully updating it a little bit for modern times on Amiga OS 4.x, AROS & MorphOS. How is video editing done on these operating systems today? It's not
:(
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@Piru
Ok, lemme clarify. When I was talking about the cheap video capture cards and the like, I wasn't compairing them to the VT in price, Iwas talking about how, once upon a time, the VT was the "Cheap Video Capture Card" compaired the the SG boxes of the day. The only difference was that the VT put out good stuff :)
What I wasn't trying to say is that a new VT would be a cheap but quality replacement to the $100 and lower video grabers on the market today. Even if the software stays open source, the Hardware for it needs to be bought.
Hope that clears things up:)
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Still not quite sure what this thread is all about... :confused:
But if you buy yourself a decent DVD/HD recorder with built in editing functions then hook it up to your miggy via USB and a couple of other bit and bobs, then you've got yourself a fully functioning video editing suite, just like I have... :)
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Open Video Toaster is about preserving and enhancing the rich heritage of the Amiga Video Toaster and hopefully updating it a little bit for modern times on Amiga OS 4.x, AROS & MorphOS. How is video editing done on these operating systems today? It's not :(
A noble goal, but I'm trying to invision the implementation and having a tough time.
The first possibility is to recreate the classic Amiga and Toaster in tandem on FPGA. One option is to take Minimig AGA and marry it to a new FPGA Toaster. That gets you started by letting you use your current Open Toaster code with classic Amiga OS 3.x, but doesn't really get you on to AOS4, AROS or MOS based hardware. FPGAmiToast becomes it's own stand alone hardware/editor. Not a bad thing, but how many customers are we talking about?
I suppose in the next step you could do the same type thing NewTek did with the VT[2]... They had a front end on a forgien OS (windows actually) "drive" the Amiga/Toaster hardware. A two box setup. You could have a front end on AOS4, MOS and AROS "drive" the new FPGA AmiToaster, but like the windows solution, it's kind of redundant.
Am I close on how you're thinkning on this? Normally I would be all for this type of project, but the target audience seems terribly small.
I'm thinking it would be cool to concentrate efforts to get VT[5] drivers and apps ported to AOS4 instead. Pop a PCI VT card into a AOS4, MOS or AROS board and you are smokin'
Plaz
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Still not quite sure what this thread is all about... :confused:
But if you buy yourself a decent DVD/HD recorder with built in editing functions then hook it up to your miggy via USB and a couple of other bit and bobs, then you've got yourself a fully functioning video editing suite, just like I have... :)
Watch this video and you see one of the reasons we still talk about Amiga/Toaster 20 years later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyGCYoZ5Nlk
Plaz
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I'm thinking it would be cool to concentrate efforts to get VT[5] drivers and apps ported to AOS4 instead. Pop a PCI VT card into a AOS4, MOS or AROS board and your are smokin'
Plaz
Yea, we thought about that one but no one was interested.
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Watch this video and you see one of the reasons we still talk about Amiga/Toaster 20 years later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyGCYoZ5Nlk
Plaz
This video is good too and shows off the AGA version of the Amiga Video Toaster 4000.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_K8vnx2ZDc
Plugs from Penn & Teller, Wil Weaton & Tony Hawk help too.
:)
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Watch this video and you see one of the reasons we still talk about Amiga/Toaster 20 years later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyGCYoZ5Nlk
Plaz
I've seen that video before and been around the Amiga since my first A1000 back in 86. If only they had released a PAL version of the toaster then the whole Amiga history may have been a much happier story than the one we've all been following for some 20 odd years. :(
The Toaster could have been the one thing that saved the Amiga but alas for whatever reasons, this was sadly not the case.
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I'm afriad that I'm going to have to agree with people saying that this is a waste of time... People love the Amiga for Retro Games and fun computing but know one I know that is into Video & editing is in to "Retro video Production" Unless your talking about 8mm B&W camera's and manual tape splicing...
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Hello guys, seriously you are always confusing :) (sorry)
What I understand about the Toaster is that you can edit VHS quality movie and press a button from a series of buttons, each button is an effect between two scenes. Those effects where kind of cool back in 1994.
IMHO I think there are many better solutions for video editing out there today, I actually do not know, but I asume there must have been some innovation in this area in 20 years. There are actully web sites out there that lets you upload a video and edit it online.
I think they got all kind of cool effects too, and you only have to click a button.
Or am I wrong?
What is it with this VideoToaster fanboy-mentality, we never had the damn thing in europe, please enlight us :) (Yes I have watched that YouTube video)
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Video toaster effects were great on old blurry CRTs. These days, everything going digital, it only makes sense to relegate the old analog equipment to the last century.
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Yea, we thought about that one but no one was interested.
Who are these "no ones"? Not interested in bringing Amiga and NewTek back together on modern hardware??? Yet reinventing the wheel makes sense to them? Madness.
Then we're back to the only option left that makes a lick of sense... combo FPGA MinimigAGA/Toaster stand-alone running AOS3.x, make a front-end GUI that runs on AOS4, MOS, AROS and maybe grow from there to include HD features. Still... a tough sell to a small audience.
Plaz
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Funny, if you take the above complaints and replace "Video Toaster" with "Video Games" "VHS quality" for "90's quality graphics", you get things like:
"I don't know anyone who wants "Video Games" with 90's quality" graphics today."
And we know that's not true...
I know people who used the Video Toaster for fun, so it would make sense that it could still be fun to do..
Now, whether or not that market (people who want to use a VT for fun) is large enough to build up enough of a bounty is questionable...
But I don't see the harm in trying...
Of course, one of the great past times of this board seems to be telling people why they can't/shouldn't do something, so keep having fun there... ;-)
desiv
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I'm afriad that I'm going to have to agree with people saying that this is a waste of time... People love the Amiga for Retro Games and fun computing but know one I know that is into Video & editing is in to "Retro video Production" Unless your talking about 8mm B&W camera's and manual tape splicing...
Somebody is willing to plonk down 12.000 dollars to get something done, so I guess it doesn't matter if someone thinks its "a waste of time".
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Another wasted thread, the signal to noise ratio has really gotten bad on a.o lately....
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"I don't know anyone who wants "Video Games" with 90's quality" graphics today."
And we know that's not true...
People want an entertaining, pleasing and stimulating experience. If that's manifested in recreating a gaming experience, returning to an old hobby, or watching a movie from their past, great. But we don't have to rebuild all the old technology and hardware all over again to recapture those experiences. Host your old fav media on new hardware.
There was a time when a classic Amiga clone and toaster combo would have had a nice market. I think we're about 10 years past that time. Commodore squandered the chance to lead with things like the toaster/flyer. Now NewTek lives in the windows/mac world. X1000 with AOS4 might hope to join the party by supporting the latest card, but it will never lead again. (well, never say never)
Plaz
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Another wasted thread, the signal to noise ratio has really gotten bad on a.o lately....
Pretty much started around mid 1997
Plaz
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People want an entertaining, pleasing and stimulating experience. If that's manifested in recreating a gaming experience, returning to an old hobby, or watching a movie from their past, great. But we don't have to rebuild all the old technology and hardware all over again to recapture those experiences. Host your old fav media on new hardware.
There was a time when a classic Amiga clone and toaster combo would have had a nice market. I think we're about 10 years past that time. Commodore squandered the chance to lead with things like the toaster/flyer. Now NewTek lives in the windows/mac world. X1000 with AOS4 might hope to join the party by supporting the latest card, but it will never lead again. (well, never say never)
Plaz
Someone wanted it bad enough to basically pay for it.
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Someone wanted it bad enough to basically pay for it.
Guess so. Actually I hope they get it. I'm questioning the motivation, but not rooting against it.
Plaz
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Haha, two more weeks not this time. While you were not 100% correct you did get most of it right so the backer of the bounty will add $100 on your behalf. Yes, that's right if this bounty fails you will get $200 back December 2012.
WOW! thanks!
( I was going to suggest also the FPGA route instead of xcore, but I thought it would be too far fetched. ;-) )
btw.
Any clue about: Is the SAM's FPGA + expansion connector enough for VT HW re-implementation?
btw2. Is xcore allowed to be used instead of a FPGA? (in my imagination VT HW would be far more easy to do with xcore than with FPGA)
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I still don't get it. Maybe i'm not reading properly.. But suppose you get some FPGA reincarnation of a Toaster unit, and suppose you get the software to work with it. Would you also manage all the in/out stuff that goes with it? Will you still have the same level of connectivity to external video sources-monitors etc? Will a TBC finally become unnecessary? Finally, will we ever have the same joy of using a darn genlock with our "new" platforms like we did with our cheap Amigas back in the day?
I think if someone could build an interface that would allow you to utilize youre existing genlocks on NG and AROS machines, it'd be a lot more fun!
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btw2. Is xcore allowed to be used instead of a FPGA? (in my imagination VT HW would be far more easy to do with xcore than with FPGA)
xcore is not suitable for this project.
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Is the FAQ / more details available yet?
@Piru
Care to elaborate why not?
Because of the bandwidth limits of XS1 xcore chips?
XS2 should be out "soon" I think (if not already), with PCIe bandwidth.
other than that...
I think if FPGA use is mandatory, it limits things to some VHDL specialists.
- original VT creators could most likely redo it (for classics, but the challenge to adapt it to NG HW without Open VT port is big)
- minimig creators might be able to add VT functionality to minimig "code" for a very large FPGA (then the original VT SW might run without porting, but it would not give that much for NG HW users)
- Natami guys could implement VT as a standard Natami AA+ chipset feature. ;-P
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@Piru
Care to elaborate why not?
Bandwidth, or rather lack of it.
Memory, or rather lack of it.
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@DiscreetFX
I applaud your dedication in 1) getting the VT sources opened and 2) continuing to promote their improvement. But I've got to say I agree with pretty much everyone here when I conclude: Why a re-implementation in FPGA? This seems utterly pointless.
The (already improved by the experts over the last 15 years) hardware is already there (VT4/5 etc) in PCI form-factor. Why re-invent the wheel?
Your 'un-named client' would be able to buy around 120 Video Toaster cards off Ebay with $12,000, so hardware lifetime is not really this issue here is it?
So perhaps you just need to manage your clients expectations somewhat.
I guess the 'no interest' refers to Newtek's lack of interest in porting the modern suite rather than the users lack of interest in using it.
However, them may be willing to open up the driver specification, and allow drivers to be written for AmigaOS/MorphOS for their hardware. Then, via a common API, the hardware would be useable by any VE suite on the Amiga. This would be half the battle - if we are to have a modern updated VE suite, then it does not want to be tied to a hardware dongle, or hard-coded to only work with a particular capture/output device.
Additionally, in this day and age there is no real need for a realtime mixer output or genlock - far easier to accomplish with software: capture the video, save to digital file format, edit/mask at leisure, and play as many times as you want.
Again, I admire your enthusiasm, and respect the right to privacy of your 'anonymous client' (again), but I think that you have a responsibility to manage your clients expectations realistically. If (s)he truly wants something useful, then start a bounty to get an updated VE suite (either Newtek's or another) ported to PPC AmigaOS/MorphOS or AROS, and petition Newtek (or some other manufacturer) to give you sufficient details to write a hardware driver.
I suspect this approach would be easier, quicker, cheaper, more useful, with better results, more easily maintained (lets think about the future here too) and with a more realistic prospect of someone taking up the challenge.
Just my 40% of a shillings-worth, and meant in a constructive way. :-)
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I suggest a bounty for Discreet to stop spamming the Amiga world with unrealistic random false promises...
Before there was Aladdin (which we still haven't seen a single OS4/MOS/AROS (native) screenshot after more than a year). Then some more unrealistic ASM/FPGA stuff...
Come on...
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@Boot_WB
Valid points.
Except, I think there is also the need for realtime capabilities, even though the non-linear side has more uses and users.
Other than that... For video editing.
1) we need video editor SW for modern AmigaOS flavours
(any is better than none at all, blender exist, but I think it's not too user friendly etc.)
2) we need HW to get video in /out or drivers for existing HW
(old VT HW + improvements is only one option, easier possibilities might exist)
3) Port of the latest VT is better than port of the old one
....
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@Everyone
Some great suggestions, we will discuss with the generous donator. He is getting up there in years and is not a computer techie. He loves Amiga & the Video Toaster Flyer after all these years and that is a good thing. Nothing wrong with this bounty changing or evolving as long as the ultimate goal is met. Video editing suite for Amiga OS 4.x, MorphOS & AROS.
@warpdesign
It would be nice if Aladdin 4D was done, over 3000 hours of development have already gone into it. It's not a scam just hard work since it had been neglected for 10 years before it become our problem. In the future before we take over such a large project we will ask to look at major portions of the source-code instead of just a few small examples.
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This is a fantastic gesture. Send the secret donor many thanks.
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I still don't get it. Maybe i'm not reading properly.. But suppose you get some FPGA reincarnation of a Toaster unit, and suppose you get the software to work with it. Would you also manage all the in/out stuff that goes with it? Will you still have the same level of connectivity to external video sources-monitors etc? Will a TBC finally become unnecessary? Finally, will we ever have the same joy of using a darn genlock with our "new" platforms like we did with our cheap Amigas back in the day?
I think if someone could build an interface that would allow you to utilize youre existing genlocks on NG and AROS machines, it'd be a lot more fun!
Toaster/flyer should not need TBC for stable digital source. Genlock also irrelevant here, right?
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Toaster/flyer should not need TBC for stable digital source. Genlock also irrelevant here, right?
Your right TBC's have not been needed for years. Even the Amiga Video Toaster 4000 does not need a TBC if you use digital sources like DV video camera, iPhone, DVD Etc. Not sure why some still think they need a TBC. I guess if your an ancient guy or girl that only has VHS tapes.
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Pyromania: OK, I'm gonna call you on this.....
I have Always needed a TBC for DVD's when I had my 4000T/Toaster/Flyer/PAR system....and a box that disabled Macrovision... otherwise no viewable picture...
What was I doing wrong? Only my cheap little video camera worked without a TBC....
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It would be nice if Aladdin 4D was done, over 3000 hours of development have already gone into it. It's not a scam just hard work since it had been neglected for 10 years before it become our problem. In the future before we take over such a large project we will ask to look at major portions of the source-code instead of just a few small examples.
Well, you were told in person that the old Aladdin 4D source code was close to be worthless 7 months before DiscreetFX announced that the acquisition had been finalized. (I still think the trademark has value, though. Not because old Amiga users might recognize it, but simply because it is a good name for a graphics software package. There are not many good names left that are not already owned by other companies these days.)
It was completely obvious that the entire user interface would have to be rewritten from scratch and that the real-time 3D engine as well as the render engine would need be replaced entirely. So, with all due respect, I do not think anybody needed source code access to come to these conclusions, if that is what you were implying.
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Well, you were told in person that the old Aladdin 4D source code was close to be worthless 7 months before DiscreetFX announced that the acquisition had been finalized. (I still think the trademark has value, though. Not because old Amiga users might recognize it, but simply because it is a good name for a graphics software package. There are not many good names left that are not already owned by other companies these days.)
It was completely obvious that the entire user interface would have to be rewritten from scratch and that the real-time 3D engine as well as the render engine would need be replaced entirely. So, with all due respect, I do not think anybody needed source code access to come to these conclusions, if that is what you were implying.
Perhaps we were over ambitious on that one, your right on all your points. We are happy to admit when we make a mistake and learn from them.
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The royal "we" is awesome.
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The royal "we" is awesome.
Not sure what you mean? DiscreetFX is a small startup with only a few people.
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It would be nice if Aladdin 4D was done, over 3000 hours of development have already gone into it. It's not a scam just hard work since it had been neglected for 10 years before it become our problem. In the future before we take over such a large project we will ask to look at major portions of the source-code instead of just a few small examples.
Well, it would be nice if you would stop announcing more unrealistic projects before having finished this one, don't you think ?
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Well, it would be nice if you would stop announcing more unrealistic projects before having finished this one, don't you think ?
This bounty was not my idea and has nothing to do with Aladdin 4D.
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Cool I like this idea. As people have stated, because it's done in an FPGA it could support other video formats. Maybe even HD eventually? I'd hope it would be open sourced too?
Andy
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Well, it would be nice if you would stop announcing more unrealistic projects before having finished this one, don't you think ?
Why? Does it hurt you somehow when they do that??
It's funny.. I remember all the talk about reading an Amiga floppy on a PC..
Whenever someone would bring it up, the know-it-all's and wanna be know-it-all's would jump all over people about how it can't be done..
Never.. No way.. Just SEARCH, it's been covered.. STOP TALKING ABOUT IT. Get real...
and then.. disk2fdi
Hmm..
Just recently, I was chatting with the guy who created HxC floppy SD card for the ST and it supported Amiga, but read only.
I said I'd be more interested when it supported Amiga write capability.
A discussion ensued where it was explained to me, in no uncertain terms that it was unrealistic. It's in the math.. It can't be done.. This is with the guy who made it..
I said, "I don't hold with "can't be done" very well."
And a few months later.. He announced write support for the Amiga.
And the funny thing is.. I would think Amiga owners out of all people would be more open to possibilities...
oh well..
There will be people who will claim that the "Amiga movement" is damaged by these pseudo-projects. Money would be better spent elsewhere!!!
Probably.. I'm sure people were told money would have been better spent on things that weren't some fancy 68000 based computer back in 83 or so..
desiv
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desiv +1
Seriously, as my mum would say, "If you'd only put half of the energy fighting me into the chore, you'd be done by now!" Then I'd get spanked... :(
And here is another curve ball...
How can I help? I'm not a programmer and only installed VTs in the past but instead of trying to knee-cap this project, I'd like to help in any way possible.
I have Amiga Forever running opn my laptop I'm deploying with (Cool A4000T didn't fit in my footlocker :( ) and that is it, but if I can be of any use, just let me know...
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@Everyone
Some great suggestions, we will discuss with the generous donator. He is getting up there in years and is not a computer techie. He loves Amiga & the Video Toaster Flyer after all these years and that is a good thing.
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090517131359/familyguy/images/1/15/Wil_Wheaton.jpg)
Wil Weaton?
(Sorry Wil if it is you ;) - I don't really think you're "getting up there in years...")
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Pyromania: OK, I'm gonna call you on this.....
I have Always needed a TBC for DVD's when I had my 4000T/Toaster/Flyer/PAR system....and a box that disabled Macrovision... otherwise no viewable picture...
What was I doing wrong? Only my cheap little video camera worked without a TBC....
I have heard of such things too. It may depend on your equipment. What good is a PAR board in this system? (Isn't it redundant?)
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I have heard of such things too. It may depend on your equipment. What good is a PAR board in this system? (Isn't it redundant?)
PAR board is totally made redundant by the Flyer.
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Not really the PAR in addition to the Flyer is a great add on as it's essentially another DDR that you can cut to. Also in a live switch environment it actually has quality that exceeds the flyer if used at the higher quality setting. The only thing is I had to leave enough padding at the start of a PAR anim when used in conjunction with the flyer. If you have the TBCIV it can actually capture video too. Cool thing about the Amiga video gear, you were always garunteed quality as everything used a TBC and was aimed at the pros.
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@marcfrick2112
A DVD isn't a live source, it's far easier to just rip it and get the video/audio that way.
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@Pyromania
Where's the iPad version of Aladdin 4D? I can't seem to find it in the Apple Store...
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@marcfrick2112
A DVD isn't a live source, it's far easier to just rip it and get the video/audio that way.
True, DVD was a bad example. Just in case anyone does not know, even the TriCasters and current VT[5] on Windows have analog connectors for capture. There is nothing wrong with someone updating the Amiga Video Toaster code to support capture from Firewire or importing from USB or digital media.
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Clues point to this person being mr van dyke :)
$12,000 whilst a lot of money from a single person. I don't think for the man hours required for this is a lot of money.
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For those suggesting usb capture device... have you ever used one of these in a pro setting? Even today you have to shop around for one that doesn't drop frames, or suffer from lackluster quality as many of these devices are consumer level products not pro level products. There is a noticeable quality update when you move into pro products like the Tricaster or Toaster or Matrox products.
Believe me I know as I've tried many of them.
For those saying the Flyer is old analog tech... Umm it works digital once you capture the footage and you could output to component or yc or even save projects as a flyer clip digital file. Also the transition are totally digital.
I think a lot of folks are making comments and they've never really used the tech.
With lots of work this can be implemented into an FPGA and turned into an HD/SD product and yes USB provided it can match the quality and have built in TBC. At the time the toaster was made there was no TBC on a chip, they couldhavemade one but it would have added to cost (Tim Jennison told me so) nowdays that's much cheaper to do.
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For those suggesting usb capture device... have you ever used one of these in a pro setting? Even today you have to shop around for one that doesn't drop frames, or suffer from lackluster quality as many of these devices are consumer level products not pro level products. There is a noticeable quality update when you move into pro products like the Tricaster or Toaster or Matrox products.
Believe me I know as I've tried many of them.
For those saying the Flyer is old analog tech... Umm it works digital once you capture the footage and you could output to component or yc or even save projects as a flyer clip digital file. Also the transition are totally digital.
I think a lot of folks are making comments and they've never really used the tech.
With lots of work this can be implemented into an FPGA and turned into an HD/SD product and yes USB provided it can match the quality and have built in TBC. At the time the toaster was made there was no TBC on a chip, they couldhavemade one but it would have added to cost (Tim Jennison told me so) nowdays that's much cheaper to do.
Thanx, your statements are all very true. The thing that hurts the Amiga Video Toaster & Flyer the most is people that have never used one just assume things and don't really know how great it was.
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Here is the UK a Bounty is a chocolate bar made with coconut and toast is basically grilled bread... :)
I thought in the UK it was a HisMajestysShip that mutinied because the Captian banned use of the on-board Toaster/Flyer system and even replaced all images of Kiki Stockhammer with those of Fleecy Moss.
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In 2010 it's all digital in digital out, be it from DVD/AVI source or HD camera input. Nothing really gets used much in the oldskool analogue method, just like nobody uses analogue cameras to take pictures or processes sound using analogue tech.
What we could use a bounty for is AVI type streamed video AND audio sync standard resurrection ie if someone could actually write a program to do something with the official Anim+SLA format (mode 2-streamed video AND streamed audio) This is basically like AVI for OCS/ECS/AGA machines which nobody ever did anything with or even remembers now.
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@Pyromania,
The Flyers biggest strength was also it's achilies heel. At the time there really was no alternative platform that could allow them to deploy and develop the concept at that price as the Amiga was able to do so much with the NTSC signal out of the box.
Once folks found out it consisted of an Amiga as the underlying platform "legitamate firms" backed away as MS and Apple (and especially Commodore...lol) did a good job of spreading the idea that the Amiga as outdated tech.
Newtek sold systems that covered up the Amiga Branding with a toaster logo... that wasn't by accident.
All I know is I had a ball bustor of an investor walk in see what we were doing and plunk down for another system for sales videos. So that's testament to both the Flyers versatility and my skill :)
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In 2010 it's all digital in digital out, be it from DVD/AVI source or HD camera input. Nothing really gets used much in the oldskool analogue method,
Umm, not so much. I have and use Hi8 and SVHS cameras, and even have a MiniDV camcorder with no digital outputs. I will keep using what I have until it falls apart. I have plenty (understatement) of other uses for the money required for replacements, and what I have gets the job done. I'll bet I'm not the only one.
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In 2010 it's all digital in digital out, be it from DVD/AVI source or HD camera input. Nothing really gets used much in the oldskool analogue method,
Really? do you work in a live production environment? A pro level setup will be able to ingest video in ANY format. Analog, Digital, any file any codec. Also lots of folks will plugin component analog source and SDI or various signals. That was always the NewTek workflow or pipeline and I thing any FPGA iteration of the legacy Amiga Flyer should adopt the same idea.
Heck if they were able to adapt the Cassablanca series to more moder spec an FPGA FLyer would be do-able.
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Umm, not so much. I have and use Hi8 and SVHS cameras, and even have a MiniDV camcorder with no digital outputs. I will keep using what I have until it falls apart. I have plenty (understatement) of other uses for the money required for replacements, and what I have gets the job done. I'll bet I'm not the only one.
Me too.
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just like nobody uses analogue cameras to take pictures or processes sound using analogue tech.
Really, I still know people who use film cameras for "serious" (their word) photography.
And my local chain store (Fred Meyer's) still carries newly pressed records.
(Those things that look like really big black CDs??? :-)
Don't count out analog (or most things retro) quite yet...
desiv
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In the end it's not my US$12K and it will give retro enthusiasts a chance to actually use their video toasters for something, so it's hard to be negative about this. I've long ago outgrown video toaster and won't be going back to it, but at least those who haven't had the chance to try it and might like to will be able to deal with the modern world....
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@Pyromania
Where's the iPad version of Aladdin 4D? I can't seem to find it in the Apple Store...
Hopefully in 2011.
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@Amiga_Nut
As others have stated and as this modern day feature rich HD $24,995 decendant of the Amiga Video Toaster Flyer shows, it's good to have both digital and analog ways to capture and switch video.
http://www.newtek.com/tricaster/tricaster_tcxd850.php
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I don't get how some are dead seat against this bounty and also suggest alternate uses for the money... if Dick Van Dicke and I assume it's him want's to dedicate $12k to the task so be it. I differ to his expertise on the matter as he's been in the industry ...I dunno all his life? hell the guy worked directly with Disney so if he gets it and understands the value of this platorm it's because he was around when the old skool studio system controlled everything.
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me too.
+1 = 3
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I don't get how some are dead seat against this bounty and also suggest alternate uses for the money... if Dick Van Dicke and I assume it's him want's to dedicate $12k to the task so be it. I differ to his expertise on the matter as he's been in the industry ...I dunno all his life? hell the guy worked directly with Disney so if he gets it and understands the value of this platorm it's because he was around when the old skool studio system controlled everything.
That's kind of the point though - it doesn't control everything anymore, and that kind of studio editing is well served by other platforms.
It all depends what is trying to be achieved:
If this is about a few retro enthusiasts having a new toy to do the same stuff with (and that's fine if it is) then this may be the way to go (although it beggars the question - why not just use a VT?).
If it's about moving the AmigaVT forward towards the current state-of-the-art, then it needs to be thought through at the concept level before deciding on detailed project plan.
Yes, I have a record deck, a record collection and a 35mm SLR camera. However, if I were going to develop a photo editiing suite for the Amiga(oid) platforms my primary focus would be on digital image processing.
If I were building a music editing suite I would first ensure that could manipulate digital input - if I wanted to record analogue input I would use a seperate recording (ie digitising) software.
Ultimately it comes down to: what are the desired outcomes from this? What does the donor want to achieve? What application does the donor see this as being focused toward?
In my experience, projects are quite often hobbled at the outset by the authors of the design brief assuming that the end-client's ideas are set in stone.
Most often what is stated by the end-client is THEIR CONCEPT of how to achieve the outcome, and not details of the desired outcome itself.
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My amiga crashed so I fixed the megabytes. After I got it working again, I was so excited, I built a little touch screen out of FPGA. But then I got to thinking, frankly the equipment is getting old, it can't be fixed forever. What if I can create a bounty, and if we all team together, we can update the analogs for digitalism.
Don't rain on my parade, if you don't want to participate, don't.
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Crom00, It's good to see you and others point out that not all is DIDO in 2010. Some of you may know my background is in video editing and DVD authoring and only this year I lost work due to not being able to get hold of a 2" player quick enough. Analogue will still be required for many years, many old film spools sit in garages around the world discarded until rediscovered (some of them well known titles too). I've made some good cash digitally remastering martial arts and porn movies, they all came off analogue sources and all ended up on DVD afterwards.
As for the doubters of this bounty, well if we end up with a decent OS4 video editor and someone else is paying the bounty, what's to complain about? If it fails it doesn't hurt me and if it works out I'll jump for joy.
Thanks bounty backer, whoever you are, I wish you luck.
Now, any chance of an OS4 DVD Maestro clone? I can but hope.
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Thanx, your statements are all very true. The thing that hurts the Amiga Video Toaster & Flyer the most is people that have never used one just assume things and don't really know how great it was.
@Pyro
At the time I got the Flyer I had been burned by: VlaB motion on the high end, Iomega PC capture on the low end, and Media100 as it was still expensive. I had a toaster 4000 in a a desktop 4000 and got a Flyer rig off of someone on usenet. Back when Micropolis drives were used (should have been called Crapopolis as they all died) but the flyer was a workhorse. The only thing was you could not do was real time multilayered fx on a timeline, then again many systems from that era couldn't do that at the Flyers price point. The flyer gave to A and B with a Still Store/GFX overlay
I think it was bested only by the avid (industry standard but uber expensive) and Meda100 it was the best option out there and at least with the toaster you could always switch live.
Even today such a setup is useable for internet video as it has a 4 input switcher. If you have one connect the output to a anallog to firewire converter and you can econde that to flash streaming media with a cheap laptop and an A4000 or A2000 Toaster you stream to the net (without a Tricaster).